Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[icandigit]

The only defense I will give laurel is that I would be mad if I invested years in this douchebag and now when I'm not with him he's all mysterious and saying the city.

[quarks]

but in interviews, at cons, wherever, the writers act as though it's just a known fact that Laurel and Oliver have a miraculous love.

 

 

Except that I don't think they have said this recently?  Or to be fair, even in the beginning, where they said that the Oliver/Laurel relationship was troubled and it would be fun to see what the characters would do with it. 

 

In April, Kriesberg did make his Lois and Clark comment, which he said was misunderstood/taken out of context. Here's the interview on Hypable:

 

http://www.hypable.com/2014/04/17/arrow-andrew-kreisberg-laurel-oliver-season-3/

 

"It’s Oliver and Laurel. It’s Lois and Clark. They can break up, get together, sleep together, break up, get married, get divorced, and she can forget him.”

 

So, taking a look at what was actually said here: if you leave out the "Lois and Clark" bit - the Laurel and Oliver relationship is one that is described, by a showrunner, as a series of break-ups that ends in divorce, and she can forget him. That doesn't sound like a healthy relationship or "miraculous love."  Later, in that same interview, Kreisberg added:

 

“Oliver has women in his life. He has Laurel. He has Felicity. Helena is doing a 10 to 20 stretch. But Laurel will always be one of the closest people to him, whether that’s romantic or not. That’s why it’s so powerful to us that, in his darkest hour, Laurel is the one who pulls him out of it.”

Kreisberg previews, “A lot of the things we have done have been leading up to what we’re doing in the finale, and then moving that forward to season 3.”

 

Yes, Laurel's listed here. But Kriesberg immediately added "whether that's romantic or not."

 

I think what went wrong here was the "Lois and Clark," bit, which threw many people - me included. But what Kreisberg apparently meant by this - and tried to clarify afterwards - was more that Laurel, like Lois, would always be an important part of Oliver's life - even if that wasn't in a romantic sense. He said he was surprised that people took it as an indication that Laurel and Oliver were destined to be together. I also don't think it helped that in this same series of interviews, Kreisberg said something about the way people "needed" to see Oliver and Laurel get together at the end of last season, which I at least didn't need. In retrospect I can see why he wanted to keep things ambiguous, but, still. 

 

Here's Kriesberg shortly before the finale:

 

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/05/13/arrow-showrunner-teases-a-suprise-outcome-for-season-2-finale

 

"Look, I don't think it's any big surprise that we're struggled in places with Laurel as a character -- through no fault of Katie Cassidy, who plays her wonderfully and does everything we ask of her -- but ever since she found out, it's just changed the dynamic, and it's made the show a lot more fun and enjoyable to write. So her storyline in the finale is much closer tied to her father and Sarah. But especially going into Season 3, there's a much more different dynamic in the group. It's really fun to see."

 

Again, nothing there suggesting that Oliver/Laurel have a miraculous love, just that the dynamic is going to be different and fun to see. 

 

Meanwhile, Guggenheim is saying in multiple interviews, before and after the finale, that the Olicity moments are the one of the core elements of the show, and telling us that Oliver wasn't completely lying in the fakeout scene. And both showrunners have said that the season finale gave a good indication of what's coming up in season three - and even with "Oliver needs you," the season finale was more focused on Felicity/Laurel. 

 

I do think the showrunners have to keep things - and particularly "who will Oliver end up with" things - deliberately vague in interviews to keep the suspense going - but the emotional moment for Laurel fans that Guggenheim and Kreisberg promised turned out to have very little to do with Oliver, and everything to do with that jacket.  I also don't think the showrunners have done a great job with interviews, mind you - quite the opposite, to the point where I think they'd be better off not doing interviews.  But I will give them this: that poorly chosen "Lois and Clark" comment aside, I don't think the showrunners have been pushing the Oliver/Laurel romance in recent interviews. Laurel's journey, sure, but that's slightly different. 

 

Now if they say "Go, Oliver and Laurel, Go!" at Comic-Con, you can all point to me and laugh. 

[catrox14]

Tom Hanks had a volleyball, right? Same depth of relationship, basically. Whatever it takes to get through it.

 

Wilson emoted more than Cassidy

[writersblock51]

I actually think the O/L stuff of late is all on KC - she's the only one talking about it in such defnitive, glowing terms. 

 

 

Now if they say "Go, Oliver and Laurel, Go!" at Comic-Con, you can all point to me and laugh.

 

I wonder how 'shocked' they'll be at the inevitable backlash that will slam them at that point.  And with the rumor still 'out there' that CL's status on the show will be announced at Comic Con, I think a lot of Sara fans are going to be paying close attention to any and all things that could impact her.

 

Personally, I'm still interested in the show for S3 if only because the post-finale stuff about Thea is surprisingly intriguing, IMO.  And I admit to being curious (since the upfronts, SA and MG's Olicity comments) about how Team Arrow's dynamics will be AND how Diggle's parenthood will affect it all.  There was a very interesting review on GreenArrowTV (I can't find the link, sorry) that broke down Oliver's development - even with all the steps backward and Atlas-sized guilt. 

 

I'm also very curious about Felicity.

 

But all those great pieces - and finding out how much they connect or not - may not be enough to withstand the clustercrap of Laurel/KC.  The more that comes out of her mouth, the more disgusted I am.

[Password]

What's interesting about the Diggle/daddy thing is Oliver will probably find out about his love child and the two of them will be the fighting daddies. I'm sure Dig will be a far better parent seeing as they decided to make Oliver such a regressive character, but I hope it will make him realise some things about they way he treats plotlines i.e. thinking about others too. I won't lie I dread Laurel in the Arrowcave, so them saying they can have more fun with her character brings me sorrow. I liked that Laurel had far more to do with her family in the final episodes than Oliver. Good stuff. Yes it was rushed and should have come earlier but thank goodness they have reconciled in some way. When it comes to Arrow I try not to pay attention to actor interviews because they probably just make me anticipate things more, then I'm let down by the episode. But KC sounds like she has an interesting way of seeing not only her character but all others.

Edited May 20, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[GirlWednesday]

Hey! Question. How long did laurel and Oliver actually go out? How much history is there?

[writersblock51]

 

But KC sounds like she has an interesting way of seeing not only her character but all others.

I've only heard her talk mostly about Laurel and Oliver.  I haven't heard much from her about Sara or Quentin (and certainly nothing unless she's asked specifically about them), nothing about Dinah.  And the few comments she had about Felicity seemed more about how Laurel was meant to be with Oliver, despite anyhing Felicity related.

[Sakura12]

Hey! Question. How long did laurel and Oliver actually go out? How much history is there?

They never really specified when they started dating, I'm assuming Junior or Senior year of High School unless Sara was going to parties when she was 12 (Laurel and Sara are two years apart) I'm also interested in when Sara and Oliver's affair started. He invited her on a cruise to China so that wasn't a short trip. He must've really liked hanging out with Sara because that trip had it not gone badly would've been at least a month long. 

[Password]

I've only heard her talk mostly about Laurel and Oliver.  I haven't heard much from her about Sara or Quentin (and certainly nothing unless she's asked specifically about them), nothing about Dinah.  And the few comments she had about Felicity seemed more about how Laurel was meant to be with Oliver, despite anyhing Felicity related.

 

I'm talking about how dismissive she is of chemistry with other characters. The fact that she's not said a word about other characters makes it seem like she's really either the only character on the show or the most important a la "Laurel is the heart of the show". I'm not surprised she thinks Laurel and Oliver belong together if they're the only two characters on the show.

[slayer2]

The only defense I will give laurel is that I would be mad if I invested years in this douchebag and now when I'm not with him he's all mysterious and saying the city.

That would piss me right off if I were her. Kinda like your former boyfriend discovering he was gay after being with you, yeah rah rah good for him but it doesn't make it any less humiliating on this side of the fence. I hope there's some push back from Laurel on that side of things.

[statsgirl]

I don't think KC sees beyond her role on the show and how it's going to come about.  That was the problem with the jacket hand-over scene, she didn't realize that it was really a bittersweet thing that Sara was going back to being an assassin and was so happy because it was a sign she herself was going to be the Black Canary.  (But that's a matter for the poisoned arrow thread.)

 

 

Hey! Question. How long did laurel and Oliver actually go out? How much history is there?

I don't think we know. We do know that they were on a break when Sara made a move on him and Laurel had her grounded.  

I'm hoping that Kreisburg left the cheating/on-again, off-again Oliver of the BC/GA relationship that he wrote in the comics behind on the island.

 

I think Laurel's picture got lost when Oliver hooked up with Shado.  On the other hand, it had to because he would have been off the scale douchey to be sleeping with Shado while mooning over Laurel's picture.  But in my mind, it was because Shado actually gave him something active to do to save himself rather than moon over his imaginary love of Laurel.

 

quarks, once again I'm in awe of your research and interpretation.  You're right, all the romantic beats are for Oliver/Felicity, especially her putting on his mask  (he's a big boy, he can put on his own mask) and telling him he looks like a hero, which was this season's arc for Oliver.  There is also the parallels of Lyla going with Diggle to stop Amanda Waller, and Felicity being the one to help Oliver take down Slade and Nyssa coming back to Starling City to help Sara.

 

 

"That’s why it’s so powerful to us that, in his darkest hour, Laurel is the one who pulls him out of it.”

<eyeroll>  Yes, she pulled him out of it but it was because of the specific information she gave him, not because it was Laurel giving it.  He could have read it on twitter and it would have had the same effect.

 

The problem, of course, is that while there is a clear and distinct path, we have little reason to trust the EPs.

 

I'm hoping that the freedom and fun that they are talking about wrt Laurel finding out Oliver is The Arrow is because now they don't have to twist themselves into knots to write her into the show.

 

Really, I don't need angsty in the Arrow Cave.  I'd rather see them do a Nick and Nora Charles thing, witty banter and fighting crime.

Edited May 21, 2014 by statsgirl

[icandigit]

 

He could have read it on twitter and it would have had the same effect.

lmao.just picturing Oliver reading twitter and then rallying the troops.

[catrox14]

 

"That’s why it’s so powerful to us that, in his darkest hour, Laurel is the one who pulls him out of it.”

 

 

Jeebus. That is so ridiculous. The only thing that she gave Ollie was the pertinent info about Blood. If she had told him that in the fucking first place, the whole asinine "I know you like I know my own bone head" or whatever that was would never have been uttered,for fuck's sake.   /head desk head deak head desk

[wonderwall]

"That’s why it’s so powerful to us that, in his darkest hour, Laurel is the one who pulls him out of it.”

 

Wait... who said this?

[pootlus]

They never really specified when they started dating, I'm assuming Junior or Senior year of High School unless Sara was going to parties when she was 12 (Laurel and Sara are two years apart) I'm also interested in when Sara and Oliver's affair started. He invited her on a cruise to China so that wasn't a short trip. He must've really liked hanging out with Sara because that trip had it not gone badly would've been at least a month long.

And been a fairly big 'Dear John' letter to Laurel once she found out Sara went along too (because it would have come out eventually).

I don't know if Ollie had originally thought he could keep Sara a secret, whether he just didn't think (most likely), or whether he was too chicken to break up with Laurel so decided to let events speak for themselves.

Either way, it's a douche move, and pours raw sewage on the Laurel/Oliver OTP.

[statsgirl]

wonderwall, that was what Andrew Kreisburg said in the interview quarks linked to.

I don't know if Ollie had originally thought he could keep Sara a secret, whether he just didn't think (most likely), or whether he was too chicken to break up with Laurel so decided to let events speak for themselves.

I think he was too chicken to tell Laurel he didn't want to move in with her. Pre-island Ollie always took the easy way out.

[writersblock51]

 

I'm talking about how dismissive she is of chemistry with other characters. The fact that she's not said a word about other characters makes it seem like she's really either the only character on the show or the most important a la "Laurel is the heart of the show". I'm not surprised she thinks Laurel and Oliver belong together if they're the only two characters on the show.

 

Ah, I understand now - I think I misunderstood your original post.   I agree with you.

 

I don't think the show has ever definitively said when Laurel and Oliver started dating but I got the impression that they, and Tommy, had been friends growing up.  Which I never understood once it was clear that Laurel's parents were both hard working but hardly wealthy people.  So how did these 3 meet?

 

I don't think pre-island!Oliver EVER expected Laurel to find out about his cheating ways, ever.  He clearly wasn't mature enough to tell her that he wasn't staying faithful to her then, let alone be ready to move into an apartment with her.  And he certainly didn't respect her enough or at all.  He had unprotected sex with one girl, who knows if he ever used protection? 

 

When Oliver told her recently that he'd wanted to tell her, every day, the truth about him (post island), I wanted to throw something at my TV.  He had a lot of reasons why he didn't tell her and didn't want to.  if he'd wanted to tell her, he would have by now.  She's a fool if she doesn't see that.

 

Oliver reading twitter to get the updates on Slade's army, hahahahahahaha

 

I for one did NOT get the sense that Laurel pulled him out of his darkeness with her "I know you" speech - until she mentioned, finally, something more concrete about Blood and Slade.  It was a stupid scene, iMO, because it chewed up precious time to have Laurel prop up their relationship when it seems fairly obvious that she's still very much delusional about them, despite knowing the truth.

[quarks]

Wonderwall, the quote is from Kreisberg.

 

I actually can see it: from a narrative perspective, having someone that Oliver hurt so badly before he was a vigilante and hero, someone who knew him in his major screw up days, come forward and say, "Hey, you can't commit suicide! You're worth something! And you need to fight!" can be pretty powerful.  Felicity and Diggle, after all, have only known the post-island guy and to a lesser extent the playboy screwup persona Oliver briefly pretended to be with Diggle.  And although Sara qualifies as someone who knew Oliver from the screw up days, Oliver didn't hurt her. 

 

I am wondering if the original plan - and by original plan, I mean vague thoughts first tossed in the air back in episode 5, when the show seemed to be hinting that things had ended very badly between Oliver/Sara on the island, possibly to the point where she had betrayed him again - was to have her give that speech before tragically dying, but after her character was tweaked and after the show decided to keep her alive, they made this switch.

 

Anyway, as I said, I can see it and see why the writers would have wanted to do that. The problem, again, was in the execution. First and foremost, Laurel's line about "I know you better than anyone else," rang really false under the circumstances given that she'd literally just found out that Oliver had been keeping a secret lair below his club, something seemingly everyone else on the show already knew.  That line needed to be changed to something like, "Remember - I knew you in your worst days, and now in your better days. And I am telling you...."  Second, Laurel had extremely important information about Blood that Oliver needed to know, but instead of giving it to him, she wasted time on other things. That made her look like someone who couldn't get to the point.  

 

That this followed a strong Oliver/Diggle/Felicity scene, and that Laurel and Oliver looked so uncomfortable, didn't help. As I said right afterwards, I think it was completely understandable that Oliver and Laurel would be awkward in that scene, so as an acting choice, it was ok, but unfortunately, it mostly served to remind me that they are always awkward in almost every scene they have together. 

 

If I recall correctly, Laurel knew that Oliver was getting on the boat, and wasn't expecting to hear from him for however long. Apparently, she and Quentin were under the impression that Sara had headed back to college, explaining why she wasn't around. Though given the length of time it would have taken that boat to cross the Pacific, I would have thought that Quentin and Laurel would have been all, "Hey, have you heard from Sara recently?" But maybe Sara didn't call them regularly in the first place.

[apinknightmare]

Though given the length of time it would have taken that boat to cross the Pacific, I would have thought that Quentin and Laurel would have been all, "Hey, have you heard from Sara recently?" But maybe Sara didn't call them regularly in the first place.

Sara called Quentin from the boat and pretended like she was at school. Can't remember which ep it was in-it was the first flashback with CL as Sara, I believe.

[MsSchadenfreude]

 

Baby mamas and sister swapping are DEFINITELY soapy, though.  And the sister swapping thing will never stop being gross to me.  It serves all characters involved very poorly.

 

THIS!  I don't care if Oliver and Dinah/Laurel are together in comic canon because I just cannot get past the sister swapping that is part of their character's story in this show.  It is gross and it makes the characters look pathetic.  There is nothing the show can do now that would ever get me onboard for Laurel/Oliver because of it.  I didn't like Oliver/Sara for the same reason.  

[quarks]

Thanks, apinknightmare. I'd totally blanked on that.

[statsgirl]

 

I don't think the show has ever definitively said when Laurel and Oliver started dating but I got the impression that they, and Tommy, had been friends growing up.  Which I never understood once it was clear that Laurel's parents were both hard working but hardly wealthy people.  So how did these 3 meet?

I fanwank that they met in school.  Dinah as an academic would know that one of the most important determinants of success is a good education with a group of people who value it.  They could have managed a private school on both their salaries (I know people who went into debt so their kids could go to a good private school) or since Laurel was so bright (so the show tells me), maybe she got a scholarship.

 

In the school, however, she got a taste for the rich life and decided she was going to marry Oliver to have it for herself, even if it required her to be oblivious to his cheating.

 

 

She's a fool if she doesn't see that.

The first part is still in question?

[SmallScreenDiva]

Really, I don't need angsty in the Arrow Cave.  I'd rather see them do a Nick and Nora Charles thing, witty banter and fighting crime.

 

I don't need it either. I'd rather see Team Arrow have a little bit more fun next season. Have them put away Oliver's "manpain of doom" (I'm borrowing this from someone clever, can't remember if it was on this forum or another) for a while. More team adventures, where everybody has a role — not just Oliver (and Roy?)  out in the field while Felicity and Diggle are at the new lair.

THIS!  I don't care if Oliver and Dinah/Laurel are together in comic canon because I just cannot get past the sister swapping that is part of their character's story in this show.  It is gross and it makes the characters look pathetic.  There is nothing the show can do now that would ever get me onboard for Laurel/Oliver because of it.  I didn't like Oliver/Sara for the same reason.

 

I really wish/hope/pray someone — fans or entertainment websites/publications — could ask the EPs about this whole sister swapping business and how they could possibly think it's OK. I didn't mind it too much during the first season, although I did want to smack Oliver when he hooked up with Laurel again. I had an "ick" reaction there but mostly I was upset for Tommy.

 

Then the end of "Heir to the Demon" happened and it was just "ugh!" But I can still sort of handwave it and say, OK it's about closure. It's about two broken people seeking comfort in each other. Who cares that it would devastate the one person they both profess to love very much *RME

 

But if Oliver goes back to Laurel anytime in the future? That's it, that's the end of the show for me. That's my line in the sand.

Edited May 21, 2014 by SmallScreenDiva

[Password]

Concerning Oliver and Laurel getting back together, my line has already been drawn. If they really want to sell that relationship, drop Olicity and put Laurel and Oliver through intense therapy. And I don't want Olicity to be dropped. I used to think Oliver and Felicity potentially had the most uncomplicated relationship on the show and that's one thing that drew me to it. Now, well, I guess we'll see what happens.

[icandigit]

I can't support the sister swapping, but, I kinda feel like they have to go there with laurel and oliver because they never fully fleshed out the relationship to begin with. The best way to do it is have them be friends who occasionally bring up their past relationship. but, its the CW so I think Oliver will be resting on his Laurels again..

[calliope1975]

I am fine with Laurel and Oliver being friends. They need to work through all their relationship baggage. But I NEVER want to see them as romantic love interests again. EVER. Unless it's the very last episode of the show, the last minute, everyone else is dead, and then they decide to date. Fade to black. 

 

It's so gross and would undermine any respect I have for either of them. 

[Password]

That's the thing, I don't think Laurel and Oliver have even been just friends. Maybe they'll find they have nothing in common. Maybe they'll see how monumentally they ruined something that could've been great. If you can't be friends with someone, the relationship is based on nothingness. Perhaps...no, even if they became BFFs I'd still burn my tv if they got together. I agree, my respect for both characters would take a nosedive. And I don't particularly like Oliver right now anyway.

[statsgirl]

The only way I'd want to see Oliver and Laurel get together is if they were the last two people left on earth and th ere was a need to repopulate.

 

I kinda feel like they have to go there with laurel and oliver because they never fully fleshed out the relationship to begin with.

I think the show does need to go there, and it will, but  I'm afraid it will be a half-ass effort like they did with Sara isn't going to show why they are so dysfunctional together and that they just don't fit.  But they're probably afraid that it will turn off all the Laurel and Laurel/Oliver fans, so it will be left dangling.

 

Maybe Laurel can find a nice ADA to date. 

[Password]

I would love a season where Oliver just learns to be lonely. Deal with your issues without using someone else as a crutch. He really needs a little while to think things through after Sara (and wow if we're not supposed to ignore he wanted to live with her). Strangely Sara seemed so at peace with Nyssa.

Edited May 21, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[slayer2]

I would love a season where Oliver just learns to be lonely. Deal with your issues without using someone else as a crutch. He really needs a little while to think things through after Sara (and wow if we're not supposed to ignore he wanted to live with her). Strangely Sara seemed so at peace with Nyssa.

No thanks, I want my Olicity. In theory Ollie being alone makes sense and if he were a real person I'd say "Dude, you need a breather" but as it's here for my entertainment, I want Olicity, badly.

Edited May 21, 2014 by slayer2

[Password]

I want Olicity too but I am so concerned with how the writers will handle them. To be fair they haven't done anything outlandish to make me dislike Olicity so perhaps they have a better grip on them than Laurel and Oliver.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I'd forgotten about this but apparently the show understands how stupid that whole cheating-with-your-sister thing. This is a gifset of a clip from ... is it first season? And yet it continues to dangle the possibility of more sister-swapping in front of viewers. Why, show? It drives me bonkers!

[bluebonnet]

I want Olicity, too, which I didn't realize I wanted until the finale.  However, I'm willing and ready for the slow burn because I want Olicity to be end game.  TV shows are incapable of allowing a relationship to be stable and last long, especially on the CW.  I'm ok with Oliver and Felicity dating other people for the foreseeable future, just so long as we keep getting our Olicity snacks each season.  

[Carrie Ann]

Yeah, I would kinda love a scene of Team Arrow hanging out in the lair, and Dig saying something like, "Felicity, you deserve to have a social life. When's the last time you went out on a date?" And for Felicity to be all confused like, "Um, last week? I don't tell you every detail of my life, but yeah, when I have time, I've been known to take advantage." And then Diggle and Oliver sit in stunned silence. I don't need to see every random person Oliver and Felicity date, but I don't mind either of them having other relationships while the good ship Olicity continues to sail its slow course to endgame.

[statsgirl]

I'd like to see Felicity date, because Oliver needs some sauce for the gander.

 

But Oliver, not so much.  It makes sense for Felicity to date because she thinks Oliver doesn't care about her in that way and as EBR said, Oliver isn't the only guy on the planet.  But Oliver knows Felicity likes him, and knows he could have her if he'd just reach out, so for him to start a relationship with someone else feels wrong.

 

That was the advantage of Isabel, it was a FWB (or maybe Enemies With Benefits), and we knew Oliver didn't really care about her.  She wasn't someone he "could really care about".

Edited May 22, 2014 by statsgirl

[wonderwall]

I'm genuinely curious... Do Laurel/Lauriver fans have good reasons for Laurel to become BC and for her to end up with Oliver other than the fact that they're canon and because Laurel has Dinah in her name? I feel like people say it's inevitable but they don't really state why (in the context of the show)... 

Edited May 22, 2014 by wonderwall

[bluebonnet]

Also genuinely curious...where are these groups of Laurel fans?  I have seen some on this forum defending KC's acting, but I don't think I have ever encountered someone who truly likes what they've done with Laurel the character.  

[stormborn]

 

I am fine with Laurel and Oliver being friends. They need to work through all their relationship baggage.

 

Same here. I actually fully welcome an Oliver/Laurel friendship. Despite my issues with them as a couple, I do recognize that these are two people who have been in each other's lives for a long time and obviously still have a strong affinity for each other.

 

And I use the word "affinity" deliberately because its the only word I could think of that accurately describes what I believe are Oliver and Laurel's feelings for each other. Because I don't believe that Oliver and Laurel love each other, not romantic love anyways, and I don't believe that they truly understand each other. They never have. Its evidenced by the flashbacks, they both wanted very different things in life; she wanted to settle down and for him to get serious about his future whilst he wanted the opposite of all that.

 

Now I have my suspicions that a big part of the reason why Oliver stayed with Laurel for as long as he did, despite being miserable in the relationship, was because she would've made an excellent high society, corporate wife and I think at the time Oliver very much wanted his father's approval and he was of course poised to take over the company one day and the kind of behavior he exhibited in their relationship, with the very public cheating and so on, was just what he saw with his parents. Now that's not to excuse pre-island!Oliver who was very much a piece of sh*t back then but I'm making the point that Oliver and Laurel, from what we've been told by the show never had this great love affair. 

 

And when Oliver was on the island, he began to idealize her and romanticize what they had. The picture of her that he carried around was a symbol; a symbol of his guilt, a symbol of self loathing but also a symbol of hope. Hope that one day he might be able to do right by her and that hope caused an impetus to survive. Oliver has used Laurel and what she represents and represented over the years for  many reasons but none of those reasons ever included real love. 

 

So getting back to my original point of wanting Laurel and Oliver to become actual friends; I think it should be a very important bit of the show's overall goal to bring that dynamic to a relatively healthy place after years of all the toxicity that's existed between them. Its obvious they won't work as a couple ever, cause even now, they still don't want the same things and even though Laurel might be taken with Oliver at the moment, now that she knows he's the Arrow, its only because she knows now that he is the Arrow! He's a hero, he's saved the city countless times and Laurel can now see herself loving this Oliver. But in my opinion, that's her not seeing the whole man, only part of the man that she feels worthy of her love. 

 

But still, despite all of this, I would like to see them get to a place of true understanding and honesty for the first time in their lives and admit that they've never been anything to each other but "a good idea in theory" and finally manage to forge an authentic friendship that helps the other to grow instead of regress. 

Edited May 22, 2014 by stormborn

[pootlus]

A Laurel/Oliver warm, abiding friendship would be fine with me. It'd be nice to have a show where the leading man and leading woman weren't in any kind of a romantic relationship (let alone an 'off-again, on-again' one, which rarely works for me).

They need to drop all the 'I know you better than I know my own name' stuff - unless in S3 Laurel unearths her birth certificate and finds out that her name is actually spelled 'Lorrel'. That would actually be pretty funny.

But even with the chemistry that Rickards and Amell have, they'd struggle to sell clunkers like that line. Just...no.

But yes for Olicity slow-burn.

[SleepDeprived]

I want Olicity, too, which I didn't realize I wanted until the finale.

 

It's funny that this is the sentiment I've heard (from a few of my male friends who watch and my 74-year-old Dad who texted me yesterday to ask if they end up together in the comics--he was really sad when I told him that they're not even in the same comic title) and read about in so many after-finale comments. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that the finale was partly the writers' way of testing the waters for really pursuing an Oliver/Felicity romance. Before the finale, moments between Oliver and Felicity had, occasionally, been called ship-pandering. I saw it as character relationship development but that's neither here nor there. I find that some people (particularly male viewers) have such a strong aversion to any form of shipping that since Olicity was the popular ship in the media and the fandom, a lot of them were so resistant to acknowledging anything else between Oliver and Felicity as other than her just crushing on him or her being into him while he's ambivalent.

 

It's like that mansion scene really opened the eyes of some viewers that Oliver might be harboring deeper feelings for Felicity, in spite of it turning out to be a ruse. Because that beach scene follow-up certainly suggested not everything he said was a lie. They are actually a legitimate possible romantic relationship that the show should pursue... But somewhere down the line. Everyone seems to want the slow burn for them. And, so far, the writers have handled their relationship really well. It helps that Amell and Rickards just continue to be pretty amazing together. Here's hoping they continue to progress nicely, with minimal angst/soapy fuckery, in the coming seasons.

 

BTW, I know it's been mentioned before but I'm still marveling at the fact that the Oliver and Felicity scenes in the finale were given their own romantic, soft piano tinkling score. I'm not going to say it made me squee a little (it totally did) since it sort of reminded me of Buffy and Angel having a special theme (composed by the awesome Christophe Beck).

[ostentatious]

I think Oliver was with Laurel because like his mom, she was a female who disapproved of him, so the vibe felt familiar. Resentment at their respective attempts to control him meant he got enjoyment out of passive-aggressively thwarting those attempts.

[Password]

I hope the romance built between these two, yes let's face it it IS romance, is paid off when it does happen. Even though I realised it was too soon and not earned yet, it took me by surprise Oliver's sincerity. And then the beach scene sort of nailed it for me. One of those really sweet romances between characters instead of "ohmyword you're hot let's sleep with one another and declare it love".

I think the fact that we're wondering why Oliver and Laurel got together is a failure on the part of the writers. Unless in s3 it becomes clear, there really is no rhythm or rhyme with them.

Edited May 22, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[Danny Franks]

It's like that mansion scene really opened the eyes of some viewers that Oliver might be harboring deeper feelings for Felicity, in spite of it turning out to be a ruse. Because that beach scene follow-up certainly suggested not everything he said was a lie. They are actually a legitimate possible romantic relationship that the show should pursue... But somewhere down the line. Everyone seems to want the slow burn for them. And, so far, the writers have handled their relationship really well. It helps that Amell and Rickards just continue to be pretty amazing together. Here's hoping they continue to progress nicely, with minimal angst/soapy fuckery, in the coming seasons.

 

 

Yeah, slowburn is fine as long as it's not loaded with all the miscommunication, angst and jealousy shit that most slowburn couples get. There is no need for delaying tactics and roadblocks when they best delaying tactic already exists, in Oliver's ability to even be in a relationship. He knows he can't do it, at the moment, and I think Felicity knows it too (though my guess is that she'd be willing to give it a shot anyway, and hope for the best). They both know how important their friendship is becoming to one another, and I think they can carry on having steady growth and occasionally intimate moments for a while yet, before anything else needs to happen.

 

They need to drop all the 'I know you better than I know my own name' stuff - unless in S3 Laurel unearths her birth certificate and finds out that her name is actually spelled 'Lorrel'. That would actually be pretty funny.

 

 

Season 3's big development for her character is that she's had lifelong dyslexia, and no one had the heart to explain it to her.

[Password]

Another reason why I like their romance is because it has minimal angsty/soapy nonsense that seems a requirement in romances today. Oliver's whole being is an obstacle big enough. And Felicity outside of Oliver will be interesting I'm sure.

[slayer2]

Yeah, I would kinda love a scene of Team Arrow hanging out in the lair, and Dig saying something like, "Felicity, you deserve to have a social life. When's the last time you went out on a date?" And for Felicity to be all confused like, "Um, last week? I don't tell you every detail of my life, but yeah, when I have time, I've been known to take advantage." And then Diggle and Oliver sit in stunned silence. I don't need to see every random person Oliver and Felicity date, but I don't mind either of them having other relationships while the good ship Olicity continues to sail its slow course to endgame.

Me too. Felicity should be dating.

[tv echo]

Hi!  First time poster here.  I never read the comic books. but watched Arrow through both seasons.  i remember being surprised and impressed by how good the pilot episode was in Season 1, but skeptical of the Oliver-Laurel love based on what I saw (lack of chemistry).  Now I am even more skeptical of the Oliver-Laurel 'epic love'.  I think the EPs never expected backlash against the sister-swapping because of the popularity and longevity of The Vampire Diaries (with brother-swapping at its core romance).  I fully expected Laurel to survive Season 2 because it's the CW and CW shows must have a romantic triangle.  I wouldn't be surprised if the Season 3 promo cast photo features Oliver with Laurel on one side of him and Felicity on the other side.

 

Of the four women in Oliver's life, I think Laurel is the least deserving at this point (though that could change later).  Here's my rundown (from least deserving to most deserving) based on actions to date that I've seen on the show:

 

4. Laurel - She deliberately thwarted her sister's happiness and went after the guy her sister was interested in.  She then deluded herself with this fantasy of them being soulmates and living happily ever after.  She ignored or disregarded her boyfriend's repeated cheating.  She unfairly blamed others for her own misfortunes.  When her 'dead' sister turned up alive, she did not welcome her back but was angry, bitter and self-absorbed.  As a lawyer, she violated the ethical standards of her profession and the oath she took when she was admitted to the bar (State v. Queen).  She has no remorse in using blackmail to get what she wants.  She displays an unearned sense of entitlement.

 

3.  Thea - She grew up rich and spoiled.  With only a high school diploma, she was able to take over Verdant only because it was a family-owned business and her last name is Queen.  She threw a tantrum and refused to sign papers, thereby impoverishing her family, solely because her mother and brother lied to her about her real father to protect her.  She refused to talk to her brother about the reason he didn't tell her.  Though her family is now poor due to her, she still managed to land another cushy situation by getting into a limo with her rich dad at the end of Season 2.  Her anger toward her brother seems over the top.  She has not earned anything (yet).

 

2.  Sara - She slept with her sister's boyfriend.  She suffered and became an assassin for the LOA.  She returned to Starling City in order to protect her sister and father.  She was willing to sacrifice herself to save them.  She helped the Arrow fight the bad guys and save others.  She made a deal to return to the LOA in return for Nyssa's help in defeating Slade's army.  She has matured and evolved over the past 5-6 years.

 

1.  Felicity - She is an indispensable part of Team Arrow.  She helped Oliver repeatedly with IT-related stuff, both before and after she found out he was the vigilante.  She risked her life to help him defeat the bad guys on multiple occasions.  She is loyal and has been unselfish in both words and actions.  She encouraged and supported Oliver to keep him going and on the path toward becoming a hero.  And, of course, her actions in the Season 2 finale are the actions of a true heroine.

 

By the way, I was not an Olicity shipper and did not see the viability of an Oliver-Felicity romantic hookup for most of the two seasons, but changed my mind after the Season 2 finale.  Now I see what everyone's been ranting about, but I agree that it should be a slow burn.

[bravelittletoaster]

By the way, I was not an Olicity shipper and did not see the viability of an Oliver-Felicity romantic hookup for most of the two seasons, but changed my mind after the Season 2 finale.  Now I see what everyone's been ranting about, but I agree that it should be a slow burn.

 

I still don't see it, sorry to say.  And I have no horse in this race whatsoever; I don't care who's under Oliver at any given point.  I'm just team Sara going back to girls.  And I'm not saying Olicity chemistry isn't there, because obviously it is for a huge portion of the internet.  I've just never seen it.  I get that she has a big boy crush on him, but I've only ever gotten "little sister" vibes in his feelings towards her, and they just don't seem on the same plane to me yet.  Like, they're not quite peers in my eyes, and their vibe is a little too familial, so I can't see them together.  And I really like Felicity.  But she just seems like a more natural fit for Barry to me.  And the show was clearly courting that, so I'll be curious to see what if anything they do with that when they launch the Flash show and how often if ever they cross over.

[writersblock51]

 

I think Oliver was with Laurel because like his mom, she was a female who disapproved of him, so the vibe felt familiar. Resentment at their respective attempts to control him meant he got enjoyment out of passive-aggressively thwarting those attempts.

Very interesting theory, thecatbasket.   I'd say this is could be a likely reason but that would be giving the writers a LOT more depth that I think they'd bother with.  I always went with the Trophy Wife theory for why Oliver stayed with Laurel.  And he was her Trophy Husband - with enough money to help her turn a blind eye to a lot of his immature ways.

 

As for why Laurel fans want her to become BC and Oliver's OTP,  the reasons I've heard (because there are some very vocal fans on Tumblr) are:

1) that's the way it was in the comics, so yes, Canon

2) the showrunners said - way back when - that she was going to become BC so of course that's still the plan, despite Sara and S2

3) L/O are 'meant to be' because they've always loved each other - despite Felicity and all the other girls ("just flings," per KC)

 

It's been interesting - and thank goodness I have a thick skin at times - to lob out a few questions about the Canon stuff.  As discussed on this site and others, Canon isn't concrete.  And the same canon that had Oliver get married to Dinah also had them divorce.  Hardly a OTP.  And all other versions of the comics don't put them together. 

 

I've been told that's not important (really!) because they show said she was going to BC and they would be together.

 

it's like trying to reason with a 5 year old.

[Sakura12]

I don't think Barry and Felicity will ever be a thing, despite the EP's selling it as that in the beginning to draw interest to the Flash. (which still makes no sense to me because comic wise, Flash is much more popular and well known than Green Arrow). Barry's got his own love interest in Iris West. Now I don't think they are above keeping their options open since that's pretty much all they do. If Iris turns out to be Laurel 2.0, Felicity will most likely be around to keep the triangle going strong. 

 

The EP's on this show are exactly like Oliver with his not wanting to commit to anything. They won't even commit to Laurel being the Black Canary. You'd think they would've come out by now and said that Laurel is on her way to being BC. Only Cassidy is saying that, then we have some announcement for Caity Lotz's status being released at comic con, another strange thing to do since comic con is mostly only used for big announcements. So to me it looks like they are not confident enough in Laurel becoming BC. They want to keep their options open.

 

The same thing is happening for Olicity, they are keeping them around and throwing bones to shippers while still trying to force Laurel into the ring. They know how popular Felicity is so I have no doubt they'll either kiss or get together but be the endgame, that is still up in the air. 

[KirkB]

I have this theory that the EP's fully intended Laurel to be the Black Canary by now. When we first meet her in the pilot she's working at a place called CNRI and it was mentioned that she had been taking self defense lessons. I think they intended to show, over the course of the first season, that there was a little more to Laurel than meets the eye and that while we might not see her development in the same way as Oliver's that inspired by the Hood she would grow into a potential hero in her own right. Then the Canary would debut in season 2 and those not in the know would be surprised to find out it was Laurel. But a funny thing happened in season 1. Cassidy turned out to not be as good an actress as they thought, or not entirely right for the role, she didn't seem to infuse the scenes with the kind of intensity they needed, so stuff kept getting rewritten and her development got pushed back. Season 2 came around and they were ready to introduce the Canary but everyone except Cassidy recognized she was not ready. Then someone in the office had the brilliant idea of Sara not being dead, instead she managed to get away from the worlds most heavily populated deserted island, trained with the LoA and became the Canary herself. That way they could have the Canary fighting with Oliver in season 2, which was their plan, while continuing to build Laurel until she's ready. Only the audience really liked Sara and became even more dismissive of Laurel, which I think the EP's and Cassidy are unaware of. The plan was to make Laurel the Canary and they're going to stick to it, even if it takes longer than they expected.

Edited May 22, 2014 by KirkB