Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[SonofaBiscuit]

At this point, I don't even consider Laurel a lead, let alone a romantic lead.  I wouldn't say that it's destined that she will be back with Oliver again...the EPs just have to be willing to let go of their original plans and follow the story wherever it organically takes them.  Now, from what the EPs have said, it sounds like they might be intending to put Oliver and Laurel back together again (all of that Lois and Clark nonsense).  But, from what is shown on screen, it wouldn't make sense to me for them to go in that direction.  The relationship was toxic and full of lies and betrayal.  I don't know what purpose that relationship would serve in Oliver's growth as a character...seems like regression to me.  I'm just hoping that if the EPs get enough negative feedback, maybe they'll abandon this idea that the audience wants to see endless cycles of Oliver and Laurel breaking up and getting back together.   

[catrox14]

 

Yeah but you're fighting a losing battle. She's the romantic lead, it is what it is and it's not going to change, the only thing that's up in the air is how and when IMO.

 

Where is the evidence that she is the defacto romantic female lead?  She might be the female lead based being number 2 on the call sheet but to me that means nothing.  To me it's like in Supernatural.  Jared Padalecki is given top billing on the show but IMO Ackles is the co-lead he's just listed 2nd.  It's even less important in Arrow which is emerging as more an ensemble piece than Supernatural. I know it's not but they have a huge supporting cast so really Amell is the only lead.  He's giving the lead performances and he's the main protagonist. You could kill off any one else in the show and the show goes on. If you kill off Oliver, the show is over.

 

I would argue that Felicity is the current actual female lead regardless of her billing. IMO Laurel is a supporting character more than a lead character.

Edited May 19, 2014 by catrox14

[Danny Franks]

Yeah but you're fighting a losing battle. She's the romantic lead, it is what it is and it's not going to change, the only thing that's up in the air is how and when IMO.

 

Laurel is the romantic lead? How? What leading romantic things has she done in the last... dozen... episodes?

 

Felicity gets the moments with Oliver, she gets to support him and listen to him and be there for all the significant things that happen. She gets the tender moments, whether they're romantic or platonic. Hell, she gets the twinkly piano music in the background when she shares a scene with Oliver. Laurel gets almost none of that, and the only, literally the only, thing that suggests she's the romantic lead on this show is the fact that she's called Laurel Lance, and a character with that name (albeit not the name she was known by) was once romantically involved with Oliver Queen in a comic book continuity that no longer exists.

 

If the writers try to make her the romantic lead in Oliver Queen's life again, then I think they're risking their show, given how much of an anti-presence Cassidy has become. If they don't recognise that, then it's on their own heads.

[Password]

The whole fake-out scene, from the point of view that Felicity knew, could be understood that for that one second of lost composure she believed him. I think Felicity had come to the conclusion that Oliver Queen was a no-go zone after the whole "can't be with someone I really care about" thing. So when Oliver said ILY with such conviction it seemed to open at the least a window again concerning her feelings for him, and his feelings for her.

 

Honestly I also think that Oliver and Laurel will be endgame. I would certainly prefer Felicity because frankly Laurel is just no. If they decide to abandon Laurel and Oliver I'd write the CW and the EPs a letter of congratulations for going with their head and not their comic loving hearts. Laurel has become so irrelevant that for half of the episode she was tranq'd and the other half she was held hostage. BRILLIANT lead there. They just wrote themselves into a hole. Here's to hoping the same doesn't happen on The Flash.

[Danny Franks]

The whole fake-out scene, from the point of view that Felicity knew, could be understood that for that one second of lost composure she believed him. I think Felicity had come to the conclusion that Oliver Queen was a no-go zone after the whole "can't be with someone I really care about" thing. So when Oliver said ILY with such conviction it seemed to open at the least a window again concerning her feelings for him, and his feelings for her.

 

 

If Felicity knew beforehand, I think it's safe to say that she would already have the syringe secreted away, instead of having it handed to her with a loaded, "do you understand?" in a place where Slade might see. And I think everything about that scene was played quite clearly as her not having a clue what Oliver was up to.

[Password]

Yes and yet I still can't help but feel what a jerk thing to do...from the writers anyway.

[Danny Franks]

Yes and yet I still can't help but feel what a jerk thing to do...from the writers anyway.

 

I have to say, I don't find it jerky, on the part of the writers. I thought that they demonstrated well enough at the end of the episode that there was plenty of truth in Oliver's words. And at least this was better than the stupid, clichéd, 'we have to kiss now to avoid being seen by someone' that every other show involving a 'will they, won't they' couple does (and I wouldn't be surprised if Arrow did do this with Oliver and Felicity, next season).

 

The initial reveal that Oliver was playacting? Yeah, that would sting. But they followed it up with that genuine and sweet coda on the island. He said the words in deception, but I don't think that invalidates what was unspoken at the end.

 

Was it jerky of Oliver to do that to Felicity? Yes. But I don't think he had much choice, and I think the regret was plain, once you watch the scene again with the reveal in mind. He looked reluctant and uncomfortable, and not just because he's emotionally stunted.

[apinknightmare]

 

Yes and yet I still can't help but feel what a jerk thing to do...from the writers anyway.

 

It was a real jerk thing to do. But I can forgive it story wise since a) I do think it will come out that he meant it (probably during a convo with Diggle once Felicity starts dating someone (please, please, please let her date someone)), b) Felicity doesn't seem to be too upset about it, and c) it shows that she trusts him implicitly, even when she's confused and doesn't really know what's going on.

 

I was pretty angry about it at first, since Felicity is my favorite and I don't want her hurt, but I'm trying to see the positive side of things, haha. I thought the situation had a sweet non-resolution at the end of the ep.

Edited May 19, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Password]

I do agree about the follow up on the island. He just smiled and said nothing but his smile sort of spoke volumes. After I watched the episode I thought ouch but well played writers. Then I just got annoyed. It's still a sucky thing to do, but in the context of the show, it was well played.

[statsgirl]

The positive side for me is that now I know that the EPs are serious about them as a couple.

 

I think it was very clever of the writers.  It's far too soon to put them together, and I bet a lot of people are worried about changes in the dynamic of Team Arrow if Oliver and Felicity get together, so they managed to let the audience know they're canon, but not get them together yet.

 

While it amuses me that when Oliver heard that Laurel had been kidnapped by Slade, he was more concerned with saving the city, I'm glad they didn't have him have to make that decision wrt Felicity.

[calliope1975]

It was a douchey move in that he didn't need to say the 'I love you' to sell it to Slade. However, because he said the 'I love you' which I think is genuine, I'm willing to forgive him. While Oliver is not anywhere near ready for a healthy relationship, he practically had cartoon pink hearts in his eyes during the island scene.

[wonderwall]

Hello! I'm new here, I just thought that this was actually a cool conversation so I thought I'd pitch in :)

 

I'm actually pretty active around different comment sections like spoilertv, ign, ew, tvline etc. especially with Arrow... I feel like (from what I've seen) is that people who are on board with Laurel/Oliver being together are the comic book purists who would much rather stick a nail in the eye than see Dinah Laurel Lance not be Black Canary... It just goes to show that they aren't looking at the show from the perspective of the people who haven't read the comics (so that puts them in a minority because everyone I know bar myself, haven't read the comics). No matter what Katie Cassidy says, this is why I don't think Laurel and Oliver will end up together in this series, which is what I see people are worried about... The writers aren't ashamed of twisting things around, and if that means Laurel/Oliver won't be together, the comic book purists won't really stop watching because of this. 

 

Onto Oliver/Felicty. They are one of the most popular relationships on the show (if not the most), but there are still people who don't want them to happen for a myriad of reasons. Some people believe that Felicity is too good for Oliver (because at this point she really is), others feel like Felicity gets reduced to a girl with puppy dog eyes for Oliver when she's around him (which is unfair because Felicity is more than that and I think we all know it.), then there are the comic book purists/ lauriver shippers who just can't stand them together because of what's canon in the comics, then there are the people worried that Oliver/Felicity getting together will ruin the dynamics of the team. While some of these are valid concerns, they could easily be dealt with by good storytelling on the writers' part. Oliver DOES need to become a better man before he thinks of even dating Felicity, they also need to continue on building their strong foundation so we know they won't break up in the future only to make things awkward between them as well as Digg.

 

While it's clear Oliver has some non-platonic feelings for Felicity, it's important that he doesn't act on it now because he knows she deserves better, and that's one thing he never did with Laurel. He never put her first. He was selfish and naive when it came to Laurel which goes to show how horrible Laurel/Oliver are together. If Felicity is reduced to puppy dog eyes when it comes to Oliver, then Oliver most definitely is the same when it comes to Laurel (especially in the episodes before blind spot). I don't want to see the main hero of the show to be reduced to this and put Laurel before the lives of his partners. 

 

Anyways, I could go on and on but I'm sure you all have better things to do. These were just my 2 cents :)

[millahnna]

If Felicity knew beforehand, I think it's safe to say that she would already have the syringe secreted away, instead of having it handed to her with a loaded, "do you understand?" in a place where Slade might see. And I think everything about that scene was played quite clearly as her not having a clue what Oliver was up to.

 

In the later flashback, though, we saw Oliver hand her the syringe and sort of vaguely whisper in between the dialogue we'd already heard.  I think she didn't know in the moment, thus her stunned reaction, but got it by the end of the scene.  She was just still caught up in the stunned part. 

[statsgirl]

I also think that it was safe for him to say it because in the end, she was going to believe it was all a ruse and wouldn't take it seriously.  The sort of thing  you whisper to someone who is asleep and doesn't hear because  you can't say it when they're awake.

 

Or as EBR said about it:

 

"I think he could have meant it. I think it was honest, but I think that in the time-frame of what was happening, obviously it couldn't be real because the city was dying, for one," she explained. "But I think he as surprised with how much he meant it.

[slayer2]

*nothing to see here*

 

Laurel is the romantic lead? How? What leading romantic things has she done in the last... dozen... episodes?

 

Felicity gets the moments with Oliver, she gets to support him and listen to him and be there for all the significant things that happen. She gets the tender moments, whether they're romantic or platonic. Hell, she gets the twinkly piano music in the background when she shares a scene with Oliver. Laurel gets almost none of that, and the only, literally the only, thing that suggests she's the romantic lead on this show is the fact that she's called Laurel Lance, and a character with that name (albeit not the name she was known by) was once romantically involved with Oliver Queen in a comic book continuity that no longer exists.

 

If the writers try to make her the romantic lead in Oliver Queen's life again, then I think they're risking their show, given how much of an anti-presence Cassidy has become. If they don't recognise that, then it's on their own heads.

My point is that no matter how much or little any of us like it, yes Laurel IS the romantic lead. She's the one he stared at dreamily for a season and she's the one who's second on the call sheet. Eventually all actions will ricochet back to her whether we like it or not, the only way that doesn't happen is if she's written out of the show. They purposely cast someone as Dinah Lance knowing she is the love interest of Green Arrow, I don't understand how that can be argued, it just is. Their chemistry may not be everyone's cup of tea and Oliver and Felicity may fit better for many just as Oliver and Sara or Oliver and Shado fit better for many but they didn't cast either of those characters to be the main love interest of the show.

 

You can't be a damsel in distress if you're not meant to be seen in a romantic sense. It's a trope, that's why it means so much that Felicity was supposed to be the "DiD" in the finale and my hopes are high that Olicity will at least be explored before we get back to LauRiver. But at the end of the very long day, Laurel is the female lead of the show, they gave her the jacket, I'm sure their final goal is to make Laurel and Oliver endgame. I'll still be watching until the end and happy for any Olicity scrappings in between but that doesn't change the EPs see it or change what they seem to be telling KC about her character

 Chances are good it may well be their own heads {and ours who want to watch the show play out} and the ratings and the cast and crews' jobs. If The Tomorrow People is any indication as far as the internet tells that show was cancelled after repeated efforts by Berlanti, Plec and co to shove Cara down the audience throat as a romantic lead, they didn't figure it out until it was too late and they got cancelled *sniff. I'd like to think they can learn from that but I highly doubt it.

 

 

It was a douchey move in that he didn't need to say the 'I love you' to sell it to Slade. However, because he said the 'I love you' which I think is genuine, I'm willing to forgive him. While Oliver is not anywhere near ready for a healthy relationship, he practically had cartoon pink hearts in his eyes during the island scene.

Really? You just gave me a happy. I swear he saves a smile just for her.

 

 

The sort of thing  you whisper to someone who is asleep and doesn't hear because  you can't say it when they're awake.

 

I like that analogy, and it makes sense. He can always say it was to save the city but at the end of the day he didn't have to full-out say ILY. Slade would have got the message without it.

Edited May 19, 2014 by slayer2

[quarks]

She's the romantic lead, it is what it is and it's not going to change, the only thing that's up in the air is how and when IMO.

 

 

Honestly I also think that Oliver and Laurel will be endgame.

 

 

 

I don't. 

 

I'm not going to completely rule it out, mostly because we have no idea how long this show will be going on, or if DC is going to convince the CW/CBS side to pick up all of the superhero shows that they are eagerly suggesting. If any of that pans out, Oliver could end up with Wonder Woman. It's also very possible that if the show goes for more than five years, Bett-Rickards may ask to be released from her contract. (Cassidy might too.)

 

But the show has just spent an entire season on Oliver/Felicity, giving the two of them all of the romantic beats, especially the superhero mask; having the camera move into their scenes, suggesting intimacy (this doesn't happen in the rarer Oliver/Laurel scenes); getting the swelling music; having the characters who know Oliver's "secret" identity recognize the potential relationship, while the only two people in the show acknowledging the possibility of Oliver/Laurel this season were Sara in her first meeting with Oliver, before they'd had time to catch up - and Sara later slept with him, so, and Thea and Blood; having the romantic rivals show up in the same episodes featuring major Oliver/Felicity moments, but not Oliver/Laurel moments (Isabel sleeps with Oliver in the "I can't be with someone...", Barry not only shows up just after Oliver broke his no-kill rule for Felicity, but is in the Felicity puts on Oliver's mask moment; Sara sleeps with Oliver right after he tells Felicity that she's not going to lose him).

 

And the show just ended the season with "the undeclared UST couple has to fake being a couple" bit which is a classic romance bit in both drama and comedy - and followed that up with a nice long moment of eye gazing on a beach, bathed in sunlight, during the last ten minutes of the episode which, we were assured, would tell us where the show was going.

 

I said on another thread that I didn't think we'd even be having this conversation if Oliver and Laurel weren't named Oliver and Laurel. 

 

As I was typing that up:

 

My point is that no matter how much or little any of us like it, yes Laurel IS the romantic lead.

 

 

Was, definitely. 

 

Is?

 

The only signs that these two are endgame at this point are Laurel's name, the speech she gave him three episodes ago (which I think was actually more meant to have someone that Oliver had hurt, very deeply, come to talk to him when he was suicidal, showing that hey, however much of a jerk Oliver can be, people will still try to support him - that was indicated in some showrunner interviews about why it was important to have Laurel, who had been part of his past, give that speech), a few hugs, her using Oliver's bow, Sara telling her that Oliver needed her, and Sara handing over the jacket to swelling music. 

 

Otherwise, all other signs point to Felicity as the main romantic lead. Laurel hasn't even been in three episodes this season and was barely in the finale. The real question at this point is whether or not Felicity is endgame or the Gwen Stacy of the show.  

 

The purposely cast someone as Dinah Lance knowing she is the love interest of Green Arrow, I don't understand how that can be argued, it just is. 

 

 

I'm not arguing that someone was cast as Dinah Lance knowing she is the love interest of Green Arrow. What I have been arguing is that shows can and have changed the original love interest all the time, and shows and movies frequently alter/change the original canon, and that this is a show that is not only not following canon, but deliberately playing and subverting with viewers' knowledge of comics canon.  And it's a show running on the same network which previously aired a show where Green Arrow's love interest was not Dinah or Laurel Lance. 

 

The show has made its nod to comic canon: it had Oliver in love with Laurel; it's had Arrow in a relationship with the Canary. But there is nothing beyond that to suggest that the show is going to stick with comic canon in the future. 

[catrox14]

 

You can't be a damsel in distress if you're not meant to be seen in a romantic sense. It's a trope, that's why it means so much that Felicity was supposed to be the "DiD" in the finale and my hopes are high that Olicity will at least be explored before we get back to LauRiver. But at the end of the very long day, Laurel is the female lead of the show, they gave her the jacket, I'm sure their final goal is to make Laurel and Oliver endgame.

 

Felicity has been damseled a few times in the show already. She was captured by Vertigo, she was captured by the casino owners, she was captured by the Dodger, and captured by Slade even if it was as bait, it's still damseling.  So if damseling is the mark of a romantic lead Felicity qualifies just as much as Laurel. It's 2014, not 1914  or 1964.  Women don't have to be weak and damseled to be mates to the hero in this day and age.

[Password]

It's just so horrifying to me that Laurel and Oliver are still on the table as a possible love interest. The sister swap thing is Maury worthy and add on the baby mama with "You are the father" and you really have it going. I think the EPs misundertand what leading lady is. For real. Even when the Lance family drama arc happened it was pretty focused on Sara. Laurel just doesn't have the time of day on the show.

 

So perhaps Felicity can stealthily slip into the lead female (she has for the past 4 episodes). It wouldn't hurt to see her and Nyssa interact again.

[icandigit]

 

While Oliver is not anywhere near ready for a healthy relationship, he practically had cartoon pink hearts in his eyes during the island scene.

Every time I  watch it I expect the scene to fade to black and then they play the Beatles "do wanna know a secret" I've been watching too much Mad Men.

[slayer2]

Every time I  watch it I expect the scene to fade to black and then they play the Beatles "do wanna know a secret" I've been watching too much Mad Men.

I don't understand the reference but I wish I did. :) 

 

The real question at this point is whether or not Felicity is endgame or the Gwen Stacy of the show.

That'd be cool. I kinda hated that movie, basically because of Gwen Stacy. I'm just saying that I'd love for Olicity to be endgame but I'm not getting my hopes up, however I do believe {unless they're Miles/Gough level stupid} that Olicity will have a romance next season and likely the one that Olicity fans {like myself} have been waiting for, unless of course they change course midstream {like Miles/Gough level stupid} undoing all the work they put into the relationship this season. I see where Olicity has been leading up to and hope they follow through, it just doesn't stop me from believing that they will ricochet back to Laurel as the ideal because hey...Tomorrow People. Once Berlanti has an idea in his head I reckon it's kind of hard to dissuade it, Dawson and Joey being another example.

[pootlus]

My point is that no matter how much or little any of us like it, yes Laurel IS the romantic lead.

She was cast thus, but I think you'd struggle to argue that she has been anything past the first season, and they didn't exactly seem to be portrayed as soulmates then either. Laurel was happy with Tommy, and if he hadn't died they might well have got back together.

Laurel broke down because of Tommy's death - she seemed to cope okay when Oliver died (because as far as she knew, he was dead). Not exactly the stuff people sing songs about. Sure, she could have had a drink/drugs episode then too, but then I'd have thought it would have been brought up when she had her little 'crucible' this year.

She's the one he stared at dreamily for a season and she's the one who's second on the call sheet.

The second is indisputable, the first? He had relationships with Helena and McKenna in the first season, and while the first was dysfunctional the second seemed to be pretty normal, especially by Oliver's standards.

He gazed at her picture on the island but even then it seemed fairly obvious that it was the ideal he was yearning for, not the reality - and one of the parts I liked about S1 was that Oliver seemed genuinely happy for Tommy and Laurel - not yearning or bitter.

They purposely cast someone as Dinah Lance knowing she is the love interest of Green Arrow, I don't understand how that can be argued, it just is.

Casting was over two years ago now, and they've had time to digest audience and critical response to characters/pairings.

As others have said, even in the comics Canary/Arrow is on-again, dysfunctional and not exactly healthy - not the big romantic OTP that TV shows like to sell.

It's why the comparison to Lois and Clark (the couple, not the show) always baffled me - prior to Nu52 (which I like to pretend doesn't exist) it was pretty much all them, all the time. Heck they were effectively 'married' in comics canon for fifteen years without any serious problems that I saw. That's pretty far removed from what I've read about Canary/Arrow.

Really? You just gave me a happy. I swear he saves a smile just for her.

Amell definitely completely changes his stance and face when he's interacting with Rickards, so much so that it has to be a deliberate acting choice. If it's not one supported by the show, they need to put a stop to it, because as I see it the only one Oliver's been making moon-eyes at or yearning for is Felicity.

[SmallScreenDiva]

The show has made its nod to comic canon: it had Oliver in love with Laurel; it's had Arrow in a relationship with the Canary. But there is nothing beyond that to suggest that the show is going to stick with comic canon in the future.

 

And the producers have repeatedly said that they are not beholden to the comics, that they like putting their own twist on things. So they COULD totally deviate from comic canon.

 

I'm starting to rewatch season 2 and, despite what the showrunners have said in recent interviews about L & O, I think the show shifted course at the beginning of this season. As a lot of you have pointed out above, most of the romantic beats were given to Oliver and Felicity. For all the faults of the second season, the show did a great job developing the relationship between these two. And that beach scene was the perfect cap for Olicity this season.

 

Of course, they could totally begin season 3 with Oliver and Laurel in bed (and I will just turn off my TV and find something else to do on Wednesday nights) ... but the care the show and its writers have shown toward this pairing makes me hopeful.

 

I don't think he had much choice, and I think the regret was plain, once you watch the scene again with the reveal in mind. He looked reluctant and uncomfortable, and not just because he's emotionally stunted.

 

Danny Franks, I wish they'd stayed on Amell's face a little longer after the "ILY" although I totally understand why they had to cut to EBR's reaction. But after the "ILY," I thought I saw his face soften and saw the beginnings of this really vulnerable smile. Or I could have been hallucinating the entire thing :P

[catrox14]

. But after the "ILY," I thought I saw his face soften and saw the beginnings of this really vulnerable smile. Or I could have been hallucinating the entire thing :P

 

Then we have the same hallucination. I saw the same thing.

[Password]

Amell definitely completely changes his stance and face when he's interacting with Rickards, so much so that it has to be a deliberate acting choice. If it's not one supported by the show, they need to put a stop to it, because as I see it the only one Oliver's been making moon-eyes at or yearning for is Felicity.

 

His entire demeanor changes when he and Felicity talk. It's like he allows himself to just relax and breathe out. It's so sweet to see.

[apinknightmare]

 

Then we have the same hallucination. I saw the same thing.

 

He also gave her a sweet little smile right before he asked her if she understood. The two of them are so wonderful to watch together; I'll be really disappointed if all of that gets pushed by the wayside for Oliver/Laurel: the sequel(s). No thanks.

[statsgirl]

 

I wish they'd stayed on Amell's face a little longer after the "ILY" although I totally understand why they had to cut to EBR's reaction. But after the "ILY," I thought I saw his face soften and saw the beginnings of this really vulnerable smile.

Yes. But what really struck me was his expression when he learned that Slade had Felicity.  Even with the mask and hood, there is an expression of .. fear? on his face and he swallows.  Yes, it's the last throw of the dice but he's just realized he fed Felicity to Slade and Slade is so unpredictable, he can't trust anything now.

 

And then there's the scene on the island.  Cartoon pink hearts indeed. He's never looked at Laurel like that, never looked at anyone else like that. If he's not quite in love with Felicity yet, he still knows her adorkable self is very important to him.

[somewhereother]

She was cast thus, but I think you'd struggle to argue that she has been anything past the first season, and they didn't exactly seem to be portrayed as soulmates then either. Laurel was happy with Tommy, and if he hadn't died they might well have got back together.

I understand they will probably return to it later in the series but at the moment, the soul mates thing has taken a real beating.

 

In season 2 alone (and not even taking into account Felicity)

1. We are reminded constantly that he left on the gambit with Sara and spent time on the island with her.

2. There is an acknowledgement that when they hooked up it was wrong to Tommy (even if not technically cheating)

3. Oliver dated(?) Sara again

4. It is revealed that Laurel knew Sara liked Ollie pre Island + went for him anyway.

5. It is revealed that Oliver cheated while he was with her multiple times & there is also a child

 

It feels like the writers must be exhausted with trying to make this clear, yet there still seems to be an assumption (at least by Katie Cassidy and some fans) that they are going to end up together.  It is funny to me how it keeps rising from the dead. It is a Zombie ship, nothing seems to kill it. 

[Sakura12]

They never even gave us a clear picture as to why Laurel even liked Oliver in the first place. Unless it was supposed to be because Sara liked him. Which is not a great way to start a love story. Then again they have showed us that Laurel does seem to want what Sara has, so maybe that's it.

 

With Sara at least we saw that both her and Oliver loved to party and get into trouble so them hooking up made sense, then whey they got back together in the present they were two damaged people clinging to someone that understood them, so again it made sense. But with Laurel I don't see what she saw in Oliver then. She was presented to us as this intelligent driven woman with a plan for life. Why would she be interested in a dumb frat boy with no direction in his life? Oliver seemed to just be a piece in her plan, marry rich husband. And now why would she want to get back together with a guy that cheated on her with her own sister? Forgive him, fine, it's healthy to forgive and move on, but not to get or want to get in a relationship with that man again. Especially if he was just in a relationship with your sister again. 

[catrox14]

It is a Zombie ship, nothing seems to kill it.

 

 

When the ratings tank, it will take the Zombie ship with it.

[quarks]

I keep seeing Berlanti's name come up as a concern, so I thought I'd check to see which episodes he's credited on. By "story" WGA West (Writers Guild) means developed plot and storyboarding but did not work on the teleplay, although production shots may have been suggested/planned, and people have definitely been known to contribute to teleplays without official credit. (This includes actors and production people making last minute changes.) 

 

1.1 Pilot - Shared story credit.  Laurel the definite love interest

 

1.2. Honor thy Father - Shared story credit.  Laurel the definite love interest

 

1.3. Lone Gunman - Shared story credit. Laurel the definite love interest; also, show notes that she has martial arts training and can beat up bar guys, her last successful self-defense in the show; Felicity's first appearance.

 

1.9. Year's End - Shared story credit.  (Developed/written post the initial reviews/fan reaction.)  Laurel now dating Tommy; acknowledgement that things between Laurel and Oliver are awkward, but Laurel still the love interest. Brief Oliver/Felicity moments but nothing substantial.

 

1.14  Odyssey - Shared story credit. Laurel in one scene, shown as a past love interest; Felicity is the second woman to find out Oliver's secret identity and enter the Arrow Cave (Helena was the first); Felicity helps save Oliver's life and agrees to help Team Arrow find Walter. Starts the plot of having Felicity, not Laurel, working next to Oliver.

 

1.23 Sacrifice - Sole story credit.  Felicity tells Oliver that if he's not leaving, she's not leaving, and in a major switch, works with Quentin to disarm the bombs (the person who would be expected to help Quentin is Laurel.)  Laurel tries to save her legal files, and, in a sad foreshadowing of the second season, is the only main cast member who accomplishes nothing during the entire episode (Thea throws that bottle.).  Tommy tries to save her and dies in the attempt.

 

2.1. City of Heroes - Sole story credit.  Felicity goes with Diggle to persuade Oliver to return to help fight crime.  (This is an odd beat - it sometimes goes to the love interest, it sometimes goes to someone who turns out to be a villain later or dies tragically and terribly, and it sometimes goes to Nick Fury.)  They swing on ropes together and Felicity bangs someone on the head to save him. 

 

Laurel's attempt to kick ass results in her temporary capture. Laurel and Oliver agree that because of Tommy, it's over between them. Laurel announces that she's going after the Hood.

 

2.8 The Scientist - Shared story credit.  Barry Allen shows up and Felicity likes him immediately; Oliver gets tight jawed over this. Oliver gets very smashed up and Felicity and Diggle run off to save him, with Felicity doing her "Oliver! Oliver!" moment.

 

Laurel is not in this episode.

 

2.9 Three Ghosts - Shared story credit. By this time (mid December), CW publicity people and most media outlets are treating Oliver/Felicity as the main romance of the show; a few romance sites start recommending the show as a romance; Oliver/Felicity listed as a Best Couple in several year end lists.

 

Barry realizes that Felicity has feelings for Oliver; Felicity puts on Oliver's mask.  

 

Laurel and Oliver meet and talk about Tommy, their only interaction this episode.

 

2.19 The Man Under the Hood. Shared story credit.  Felicity joins Oliver, Sara, and Diggle in breaking into QC, revealing that Oliver has agreed to follow her plan. Oliver flings her off a staircase the second he sees Slade, leaving poor Diggle and Sara behind to fend for themselves. Felicity finds out that even in a coma, Barry has moved on, freeing her up for Oliver.

 

Laurel investigates Arrow and confirms that Arrow is Oliver. She gives a long speech about always feeling a connection with him, in one of the very rare Laurel/Oliver moments, but she's interrupted before she gets to the end. Her father tells her not to push this.  Laurel hugs Oliver.

 

2.23 Unthinkable.   As we've discussed, Laurel is sidelined but gets the Black Canary jacket; Felicity gets the fake out scene and the swelling music playing when Oliver says "I love you," and the framed shot of the two of them on the beach. 

 

So what we learned from this is:

 

1. Berlanti doesn't do any of the teleplays; he just comes up with the story concepts.  This fits in from what I understand is his actual role on the show: he's primarily the money guy and the concept guy. The other two showrunners have gotten script credit.

 

2. Berlanti was behind the first three episodes that set Laurel up as the initial love interest, but also included the whole "you slept with my sister and then she drowned" background.

 

3. Berlanti was also behind The Odyssey, arguably the first episode that signaled that Felicity, not Laurel, could be the potential endgame. (The other two are Vertigo, where Felicity asks Oliver if she can trust him, and they are framed together as a couple in camera; and, less arguably, Keep Your Enemies closer. Berlanti isn't credited on either of those.)

 

4. From episode 14 onwards, the episodes Berlanti shares story credit on include one positive for Oliver/Laurel (The Man Under the Hood), which also includes two Oliver/Felicity moments; and two positive for Oliver/Felicity (The Scientist, Three Ghosts)

 

The episodes where he receives sole story credit are either neutral on Oliver/Felicity versus Oliver/Laurel (Sacrifice, although given that Tommy's death did a number on Oliver/Laurel and Oliver ends the episode ditching Laurel for an evil island right after sleeping with her, this one is arguably anti Oliver/Laurel), or pro Oliver/Felicity (City of Heroes, Unthinkable.)

 

Given that Berlanti also wrote the story that brought Felicity into the Arrow Cave, and wrote the story where their potential love interest actually became a plot point in the episode, I don't think that Berlanti is anti Oliver/Felicity.

Edited May 20, 2014 by quarks

[slayer2]

That's thorough research, and it's appreciated, I just don't necessarily trust him since I'm still smarting from The Tomorrow People and I have a natural aversion to trusting anyone who holds Julie Plec in such high regard. But you may well be right that's he's pro-Olicity and if so a big wine party and you're all invited {it's the cheap stuff though}. I'm a recovering Chlarker and recent Jastrid fan so I'm kind of programmed to take what I can get. It's sad really but it is what it is.

Edited May 20, 2014 by slayer2

[Password]

I've wondered why people like the Laurel-Oliver relationship. It cannot be purely a they're canon thing. Perhaps someone can help me out here because as far as I can see there is nothing remotely good about that relationship. And the whole they have history thing, yes, bad history. So what is up?

[millahnna]

I like the idea of it as a "exes with a troubled past trying to move on from each other" thing. But the writing for Laurel is so all over the place that I don't always like the execution. 

 

I don't know the comics from Adam so I couldn't care less about that. 

[slayer2]

Chemistry is in the eye of the beholder as well, so what's golden for me may be garbage for someone else.

[quarks]

Doomed, starcrossed lovers who somehow beat the odds and make it have always been popular - I mean, that's half the plot of the Odyssey right there, so this has been around for at least 2800 years?  (I think - I may have the date for Homer wrong. Anyway.)  Odysseus sleeps with half the women of the Mediterranean (ok, I'm exaggerating just a bit) and spends years with an actual goddess on an enchanted island and Penelope fills their house with drunk guys while he's gone and we're still all OOOH, LOOK, HE'S BACK AFTER TWENTY YEARS AND HE'S KILLING EVERYBODY FOR HER I SHIP THEM SO HARD.

 

The difference is, of course, that the Odyssey makes it clear that the protagonist didn't want to leave Penelope in the first place, unlike a certain vigilante, which really changes the whole dynamic from the beginning.

 

Back to Felicity/Oliver:

 

In episode 2.06, we see Oliver telling Felicity that he can't be with someone he really cares about.

 

In episode 2.17, Oliver tells Roy to break up with Thea, adding that if he - Roy - really loves Thea - Roy will do this for Thea's safety.

 

This strengthens my belief that Oliver knew by episode 2.10 (and possibly earlier) that he had feelings for Felicity, but decided he couldn't act on them or even let anyone - particularly  Felicity - know about them, both so that he wouldn't ruin what they had (a growing and solid friendship/partnership) and because he believed that if anyone knew about his feelings, it could put Felicity into danger.  And sure enough, shortly after he let two people know about his feelings, Felicity was in danger.

 

He could, however, turn to Sara, since if people thought he cared about her, well, she could defend herself.   Amell has said more or less the same thing in interviews.

 

I'm wondering how this is going to play out in the third season. On the one hand, Oliver's now had his deepest fears realized - he told Felicity that he loved her, and sure enough, that put her into danger. On the other hand, Felicity told him that she wanted to be unsafe with him, and showed that she could help save/defend herself once in danger - unlike Laurel who had to wait until Sara shot the guy holding her before she could act.

[Chairman Meow]

I also disagree that Laurel is still the romantic lead of the show.  In fact, based on the promo shots for season two (where Laurel was moved to the very back of the shot) and the most recent press release for season three where neither the actress nor the character are mentioned, I would question that she is any kind of lead at all, regardless of where she's ending up on the call sheet. 

 

I don't believe that just because the show starts out with a vision, that they have to keep that vision, especially when there is compelling (story directed) evidence to adjust that vision.  Someone mentioned Dawson's Creek up above and I'd have to say that's a great example of when someone looked at the plan, and then looked at how things were playing out onscreen and chose to go with the organic story rather than the pre-conceived one.  Obviously, the end game for DC should have been Dawson and Joey living HEA, but what we saw (and what IMO would be perfect for Arrow) is that just because someone is your soul mate (Dawson and Joey, Jen and Jack) doesn't mean that they are meant to be together romantically. 
 

Because Katie Cassidy keeps calling Laurel and Oliver 'soul mates' - I would love to see a warm and loving friendship develop between Oliver and Laurel that would show them as platonic soul mates; but my problem is that I don't find Laurel (as played by Katie Cassidy) capable of being warm and loving.  She (Laurel) comes off as cold, disapproving, bitter and superior in pretty much every scene she's in.  Even in the ones where I'm virtually certain she wasn't supposed to be.  I don't know if that's the actress, the writing, the direction or just cast chemistry; I just know that by episode three of season one, I'd all but given up on this show because I found the character of Laurel to be off-putting to the point of going to find other things to do whenever she was onscreen!  Right now, there is nothing (other than comic canon- which I don't care about at all) to support even platonic soul mates, much less romantic ones. 

 

Of course, it's entirely possible that the EPs will take advantage of the fan and media support of the Oliver and Felicity relationship by stringing that along until the very and and then put Oliver and Laurel together in a series finale that will be reviled on the level of HIMYM.  I guess we all just have ot wait and see. 

[Sakura12]

I don't really trust show writers anymore, I just watched a show where the male and female leads had nothing but a platonic/sibling friendship with no romantic interest in one another for 5 seasons (they were even really grossed out when a magical item made them think they slept together), then suddenly they were in love with each other in the series finale. Then there was the whole HIMYM debacle. So they will do whatever they want to do with no care of what was shown on screen. 

 

So I wouldn't be too confident that Olicity is getting all the love story blocks in the show. Look what happened to Sara, she was given everything that makes the Black Canary, THE Black Canary including taking in a wayward orphan named Sin and all that was thrown away in one episode for Laurel. That could easily happen to Olicity  and with no rhyme or reason Oliver and Laurel are the couple in the very end. 

[KirkB]

I don't really trust show writers anymore, I just watched a show where the male and female leads had nothing but a platonic/sibling friendship with no romantic interest in one another for 5 seasons (they were even really grossed out when a magical item made them think they slept together), then suddenly they were in love with each other in the series finale. Then there was the whole HIMYM debacle. So they will do whatever they want to do with no care of what was shown on screen.

 

 

   Another disappointed Warehouse 13 fan. Welcome. I think this brings up a good point we as fans have to remember. Regardless of what we think or feel, in the end it's their show and they are going to do whatever they want. We can still bring up questions and come to complain on sites like this (and I will) but really they're oblivious to what we like or want.

[Sakura12]

My thing with Warehouse 13 was it wasn't necessary to put them together. It's not like after the Warehouse Myka and Pete would suddenly hate each other. They didn't need to be sleeping together to remain in each other's lives. So it was just really pointless imo.

 

All that shows me is that the writers don't really care what they showed on screen if they want a couple to be endgame they will no matter what. They can have a couple together for 6 seasons and in the final episode say the guy was in love with a girl we never met at the coffee shop the entire time and just show flashbacks to prove that. They don't need to show why or have it make sense. It just is because they say it is. 

 

That is why I'll never be confident that Olicity is endgame. I can hope, but I'm not expecting it by what's shown on screen. 

[statsgirl]

I didn't care one way or the other if Pete and Myka got together or not at the end; there is a certain freedom in not being invested in the shipping on a show.  (However, I will be wearing my Mrs. Fredricks jacket today (the one she had in the scene where she talked to Myka about babies, I got it at the Warehouse prop sale) in mourning for the end of the show.)   Unlike my dread of FitzSimmons on S.H.I.E.L.D. because I think she can do so much better.

 

There are simply no words for the end of HIMYM but that show screwed up all of the relationships seasons ago except for Lily/Marshall so it wasn't really a surprise.

 

 

Because Katie Cassidy keeps calling Laurel and Oliver 'soul mates' - I would love to see a warm and loving friendship develop between Oliver and Laurel that would show them as platonic soul mates

Part of the problem is that KC plays Laurel as cold, and the other part is that Laurel seems to be delusional about her relationship with Oliver. In the past as she thought they were Meant To Be while he was sleeping around on her. (Nice nod to the GA from the comics though, maybe Kreisburg can meet his needs with that.)  In the present, she hasn't a clue of what he's really like and what he's gone to to become the "hero" she's so in love with.

 

If anyone is his soulmate in a platonic way, it's Sara.  They got together because they were attracted and liked partying;  they went through hell together, and they know each other at a level no one else knows them.

 

Meanwhile, the romantic, hero-making beats were with Felicity -- in 2x21 she and Diggle told Oliver not to sacrifice himself; in 2x22 when Oliver was beating himself up and hopeless she told him he wasn't finished fighting, that she believed in him and that he wasn't alone; and in 2x23 fought him to stop killing and provided the means by which he didn't have to kill Slade  At the end of Unthinkable Slade told Oliver that he had made him a killer, and Oliver replied that he had made him a hero in the end. I disagree, I think Slade provided the opportunity but it was Oliver listening to Felicity that made him a hero.

 

Laurel is not even close in this race, which is why it is so frustrating that she could be the one at the finish line.

[calliope1975]

but it was Oliver listening to Felicity that made him a hero.

 

 

Absolutely. Most of S2 was Oliver giving up and Felicity and Diggle bringing him back (emotionally, but also physically in S2E1.) He repeatedly gave up and was all woe is me until Team Arrow gave him multiple pep talks. Now that I think about it, Felicity and Diggle are the heroes of S2, Oliver can catch up in S3. 

[icandigit]

 

If anyone is his soulmate in a platonic way, it's Sara.  They got together because they were attracted and liked partying;  they went through hell together, and they know each other at a level no one else knows them.

They totally had this twinnage thing going on. If someone wants to give a speech about knowing oliver, sara probably is  a better candidate for the job.

[Carrie Ann]

The pre-Island Oliver/Laurel relationship is one of my biggest WTFs when it comes to the writers' intentions compared to what they actually write. Completely putting aside the lack of chemistry or KC's weird choices: this was not a great love. It was a relationship that began under sketchy circumstances, with one of the partners constantly unfaithful, and the other trying to fast-track them down the aisle despite their obvious problems. 

 

The continued insistence that they "know" each other in some deep, meaningful way, and that they share the Love Of A Lifetime is so opposed to everything we've seen of them that it comes across like dramatic irony. Like they really believe they know each other, when they don't know the first thing. Like they remember having this great love, when they actually had a sad sham of a relationship.

 

If Laurel DID know Oliver before the island, why on Earth would she want to be with him? Pre-island Oliver is an absolutely terrible person. Almost 100% unsympathetic (I'll give him maybe 2% for at least seeming semi-human when he learned of his side-piece's miscarriage). Not even one of those guys who is really good, but can't help sabotaging because they don't feel deserving of happiness or whatever. He's just smarmy, opportunistic, shallow, selfish, thoughtless, with no interest in improving, until he actually goes through some shit and has to get real.

 

So pre-island Laurel appears either totally delusional or willfully ignorant when it comes to Oliver and their relationship. We don't understand why she wanted to be with him, but we do know that she knowingly sniped Oliver after her sister expressed her interest first. Why give us that information? It just points to something unsavory about her character, but again, the writers seem to believe this was a pure, special love. They say that, but then they show the opposite. I truly don't get it.

 

The one part of their "relationship" that I actually buy is Island Oliver obsessing over Laurel. She represented home, and more importantly, his own sins and weaknesses. His self-loathing was maybe the primary thing that kept him going out there. He hated himself so much that he had to live so he could make up for how horrible he was. Had he dated Sara and cheated with Laurel, Sara would have been the one he obsessed over instead. From that perspective, as he gets past his self-loathing, I would expect his idealization of Laurel and their relationship to end as well. But that's where I differ with the writers, I guess.

[Morrigan2575]

The one part of their "relationship" that I actually buy is Island Oliver obsessing over Laurel. She represented home, and more importantly, his own sins and weaknesses. His self-loathing was maybe the primary thing that kept him going out there. He hated himself so much that he had to live so he could make up for how horrible he was. Had he dated Sara and cheated with Laurel, Sara would have been the one he obsessed over instead. From that perspective, as he gets past his self-loathing, I would expect his idealization of Laurel and their relationship to end as well. But that's where I differ with the writers, I guess.

 

Here's the thing, S2 refuted that whole all I ever thought about on the Island was you bit.  In S1, yeah we saw him staring at the picture but by S2 it was Laurel who?  In S2 he was in a relationship/sleeping with Shado, then Sara came back and now he's no longer even on the Island, he's going to spend an entire year in Hong Kong with Waller (who he'll probably sleep with).  So the whole, your picture is the only thing that got me through my 5 years on the Island is kind of BS.  

[statsgirl]

 

So the whole, your picture is the only thing that got me through my 5 years on the Island is kind of BS.

Kind of seems to sum up their whole soulmates relationship, doesn't it?

[Carrie Ann]

But I still buy that he believes that, for whatever silly reason. No matter where he was, or who else he was with, thinking about getting back home, maybe having an opportunity to right some wrongs, that's what got him through. And she was just the personification of that goal. I mean, Tom Hanks had a volleyball, right? Same depth of relationship, basically. Whatever it takes to get through it. What's annoying now is having to deal with his Island hangover, while he and the writers continue to pretend their relationship was something amazing when it was really a mess.

[writersblock51]

Did Oliver even look longingly at the photo of Laurel after he hooked up with Shado?  Did he even mention Laurel as the love of his live (and motivation for living) after he found out that Sara was still alive?

 

I don't think so.

 

I agree that Sara and Oliver share a 'friendship' Soulmate thing that gives them both a lot of comfort and strength.  I don't think he's ever had that with Laurel.

 

I've never understood what Laurel has seen in Oliver in the pre-island days, other than an idealized, blind image.  And I think her feelings about him, and how they were in the past, are going to be hit hard once his child & the baby mama show up in S3.

 

Count me among those who think that show has changed track with their "Lead Actress" marker for KC.  She may be listed that way for contractural reasons but what we've seen on screen (and I'm not sure KC has seen it) doesn't match it at all.  S2 has seemed more like Sara or Felicity in that spot.  And I think the S2 finale showed Felicity as the lead female.  

 

And EBR has been nominated for "Lead Actress" on at least one Canandian award show.  I don't know if the network or studio would even submit material for her for that category if they didn't want her to be known as a Lead.  Even if the particular award show is limited to Canadian actors.  Still...

 

The show has a developed a lengthy list of examples of what it's doing differently from the comics.  And, as has been pointed out a few times, the comic canon that saw Oliver and Laurel get married (though she was named Dinah) also showed them getting divorced.  So, not OTP at all.  And other, more recent version of the GA comics has NOT put them together.  So the only version in which the "purists" seem to rely on for their Oliver/Laurel OTP also breaks them up, a fine point that seems to be ignored. I have no idea why.  Taking things out of context is never a good idea.

 

Very interesting breakfown of Berlanti's episode-specific involvment as it pertains to certain relationships. Thanks, quarks!

 

Someone had mentioned up thread that they hoped that the show would retain some soap opera-y elements, to keep the romantic relationships a part of the show.  I have watched soaps since i was a kid.  A show can have romantic relatiionships (and breakups) without it being soap-y.  I wouldn't qualifiy Diggle and Lyla as soap-y, for example.

 

Baby mamas and sister swapping are DEFINITELY soapy, though.  And the sister swapping thing will never stop being gross to me.  It serves all characters involved very poorly.

 

If Laurel and Oliver get back together, I won't be watching.  I guess my assumption is that she'd also be BC (or on her way to it) by then, too, and that's another deal breaker for me.

 

If she becomes Manhunter (or a different DC person) and NEVER hooks up with Oliver again (and he firmly keeps things that way, too), then perhaps I'll be tuning in.

[quarks]

Well, again, I don't think Oliver or the writers are continuing to pretend the Laurel/Oliver relationship wasn't a mess. Laurel, sure, but even that's a questionable reading.

 

What we've had in the second part of the season is:

 

1. The writers making it even more clear that Oliver/Laurel were questionable way back when: to add to the hard partying, selfishness, and the taking her sister off on a yacht deal from the pilot, they added "And I saw you first! Laurel just stole him!"  Followed by Sara's flashback revelation that Oliver had cheated on Laurel with at least twelve girls, followed by actually seeing this in a flashback - and seeing a girl who apparently knew Oliver well enough to realize - correctly - that she was better off raising their kid without him, especially since she had money in hand.  Interestingly enough nothing in that scene suggested that either Moira or the mother felt that Oliver would be a good father; you can even read that scene as Moira in part saving her grandchild from lousy parenting, although I think that was the secondary concern. Even Oliver didn't think he was going to be a good father, and I'm inclined to agree.

 

2. Oliver acknowledging that Laurel has been his blind spot, and walking away from her.

 

3. Oliver not encouraging Laurel to tag along with Team Arrow.

 

Laurel is a different issue: her whole "Somehow I've always felt drawn to you," and "I know you better than anyone else," suggests that Laurel still, inexplicably, believes that relationship wasn't a mess. I guess, in her defense, up until Unthinkable, what she saw was Oliver dating Sara for just six weeks before starting to emotionally withdraw from Sara, which, since Laurel doesn't know the real reason, could suggest to her a lack of love in that relationship; she hasn't really seen his interactions with Felicity, and although she seemed a bit suspicious about that, the show just went blatantly out of its way to say that Oliver has been hiding whatever feelings he has for Felicity from everyone including Felicity, which would certainly include Laurel; and she could and I think did assume that Oliver didn't say anything to her (Laurel) to keep her safe which actually is partly true. I think that might partly explain her glee over the jacket (apart from Cassidy's being thrilled) - this will allow her to be next to Oliver.

 

Granted, that is all seriously weak, but the show has established that Laurel can be delusional about Oliver.

Edited May 21, 2014 by quarks

[Carrie Ann]

Right, that's the confusion though. The writing clearly shows that the relationship was and is a mess, but in interviews, at cons, wherever, the writers act as though it's just a known fact that Laurel and Oliver have a miraculous love. They're still holding on to that notion, despite what they actually put on paper. I don't understand it.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[Password]

It makes you wonder if they actually watch their own shows. The whole thing boggles the mind. If anything, the second season just sank the ship further than it was with the whole baby mama thing. And whilst Oliver probably wouldn't have been a gooda father, I can't help but feel Moira protected her son from responsibility which just furthered his problems. Sometimes a wake up call is what we need, a la island. What makes the baby mama thing worse is the very next week Laurel is saying she "knows Oliver like her own name." It just makes her look like a fool and it frustrates me because I'm blaming the writers that are ruining this character.

 

What bothered me the most about the jacket receiving was the "It fits." that Laurel said with glee afterwards. I think I actually flinched.