Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Sakura12]

With Laurel being dismissive to Felicity because she doesn't know her. I was always told the best to way to know who someone really is, is to see how they interact with strangers. If someone is rude to a waiter in a restaurant, that probably means they are rude to people they think are there to serve them. Laurel's tirade in the restaurant she went to with Tommy, Oliver and Helena comes to mind.

 

Laurel is not that nice of person, they need to stop telling me she is and just go with the personality KC and the writers are presenting on screen. Or at least have the other characters acknowledge that. Sara kind of did with her telling Oliver, he may not know the real Laurel. She would know the best having grown up with her. 

Edited October 3, 2014 by Sakura12

[statsgirl]

 

 

Be kind to people on the way up - you'll meet them again on your way down.

Jimmy Durante

I'd forgotten about Laurel's behavior in the restaurant.  Guaranteed to make Tommy uncomfortable about his lack of money.

 

I wonder, Laurel's meets with Felicity and Diggle, is that something deliberate the director/writer wanted for Laurel's character, or did they just tend to let KC have her head?

[tv echo]

The EPs can come up with and the writers can write the best scenes in the world to build a Laurel and Felicity friendship, but it will depend on the actors' execution of those scenes to make it believable.  Will the line readings come across as sincere and heartfelt, or fake and calculated?  I'm not optimistic based on KC's portrayal of Laurel over the past two seasons.

[Riful]

Oh my all this Laurel/Felicity friendship discussion is making me remember tweeting the writers about wanting more female friendships in the show, and I think I read a

spoiler about upcoming Laurel/Felicity scenes?

. My main motive though was wanting to see some more Felicity with either or both Nyssa and Sara, since I love that the IT-girl seems to be collecting assassins and other deadly people as friends and acquaintances. But really, I am in favor of just female friendships on this show, including Laurel/Felicity. Anything is better than having female "romantic rivals" act antagonistic or have bad relations with each other. Just UGH!

I don't think they have had scenes that enable me to make any judgement on how their friendship would be though I would prefer Laurel/Thea as I feel they have a better well.. starting point ain't accurate but a better foundation and some unique common grounds. If there will be a Laurel/Felicity friendship, I just hope the writers make an effort towards pacing and having them address the pink elephant in the room/Oliver so it won't loom over them

Edited October 4, 2014 by Riful

[wonderwall]

IDK for me, I don't want to see two females have a friendship just for the sake of having a female friendship on the show. I'd rather have it be a natural development rather than something that doesn't really make sense to me (Felicity/Laurel).

 

Don't get me wrong, it would be great to see more female friendships, but I don't want to see those type of friendships at the expense of good writing. That's why I prefer Felicity/Sara, Felicity/Nyssa, Felicity/Caitlin, Sin/Sara, Thea/Sin, and even Laurel/Joanna. those relationships make sense to me. Pushing Felicity and Laurel together to make Laurel more likable (because let's be real, it's going to be for that reason) would just feel forced forced (unless they slowly build a proper foundation and have Laurel apologize for acting like Felicity never existed before she knew Oliver was the Arrow) and that's why I would never really care for that friendship.  

Edited October 6, 2014 by wonderwall

[statsgirl]

Don't get me wrong, it would be great to see more female friendships, but I don't want to see those type of friendships at the expense of good writing. That's why I prefer Felicity/Sara, Felicity/Nyssa, Felicity/Caitlin, Sin/Sara, Thea/Sara, and even Laurel/Joanna. those relationships make sense to me. Pushing Felicity and Laurel together to make Laurel more likable (because let's be real, it's going to be for that reason) would just feel forced forced (unless they slowly build a proper foundation and have Laurel apologize for acting like Felicity never existed before she knew Oliver was the Arrow) and that's why I would never really care for that friendship.  

I would like to see Lyla being friends with Felicity and Sara too.

 

There are lots of potential female friendships on the show, and I'd like to see more of Thea/Sin if she ever forgives Roy and Oliver.  Giving Laurel andFelicity a Girl's Night Out friendship doesn't feel true to the character of Laurel.

 

From the Laurel thread:

There are other ways to inspire the hero than telling him he's good and that you believe in him. Laurel/KC are more believable when they let him know he isn't good enough and doesn't measure up. Criticism is a perfectly valid way to get people up and off their butts. To quote every football coach ever, rub some dirt in it and get back in the game. Tommy responded to that approach from his love interest. He felt like the kind of guy who would spend his life trying to prove to Laurel that he's good enough, and he wasn't even a guy who had treated her badly. Oliver, though...he is clearly a guy who is only going to take that for so long, even though he actually bought that treatment of his own free will. Not everyone responds to tough love. Oliver does not. Psychologically there's something in him that responds to that from her, probably because it reminds him of his mom. Maybe he's just like his father - too bold! Maybe you're just like his mother! She's never satisfied! But Laurel, Felicity is like Raisa, she's warm and believes in him unreservedly, and that's what he wants. She IS satisfied. The tiniest quiet indication of her potential disappointment sends him scrambling like all of Laurel's righteous furies never could, because all fury does is gets his back up. Look at how he behaved when for the first time in the entire length of his acquaintance with Laurel her mask of perfection slipped. If these were real people, I would say that on some level, Oliver was satisfied with her finally being the one who failed instead of him.

 

They can tell me alllllll they want that pre-2007 Laurel Lance was a faith-having inspirational angel but nope, no way. She was and is a Type A. She was and is a person whose interpersonal power comes from wielding the sharp weapon of her disapproval, not the warm fuzzy hug of her approval. That is why Tommy was with her. That is what he liked. Oliver did not like it, which was why he staged passive-aggressive petty rebellions against her. I desperately hope Ted responds to her uptight disapproval by laughing his ass off and kissing her when he's still all sweaty from working out. Tommy and Oliver were both afraid of her. I don't think she wants that, but I also don't think she knows how to be any other way, so what is required is her to be herself, and the man in her life simply not be terrified of that.

That's a good point, different people do respond to different ways of encouragement.  I think pre-island Oliver might have responded to disapproval, because he and Tommy had much in common, but Laurel wanted to be Oliver's girlfriend too badly.  Or maybe Tommy saw her disapproval of him as caring because he had very few people in his own life who cared about him. Certainly not Malcolm, and his mother was dead.  Laurel's combination of criticism and caring may have been what he needed, until he started beating himself up again that she would always pick Oliver, and was proved right.

 

But the problem is that post-island Oliver is his own biggest critic (except when it comes to relationships) and he's always beating himself up for failing, for not being good enough, for not catching enough criminas, for letting Merlyn level the city, for not killing Slade when he had the chance, and then later for not curing him in the past.  He doesn't need someone to tell him he's not doing a good enough job, he needs someone to tell him she believes in him even though she knows all about him.  Laurel's push-pull of 'you're a hero"/"you're terrible" is not going to focus him to do better. It's more likely to shut him down and send him to Lian Yu permantly for never being able to be good enough.

 

I love the idea of Ted Grant laughing in her face because that's what she needs. It's not only Oliver and Tommy who were afraid of her, it was Quentin, Dinah and Sara too.  Maybe there is hope for Laurel if the writers see her as Katherine the Shrew rather than the sainted Bianca.

Edited October 4, 2014 by statsgirl

[Chaser]

I don't think Oliver needs Laurel. At all. But if I were to over-anazyle it, I would say Oliver doesn't need Laurel for "Laurel." I think he feels a lot of guilt for who he used to be and he probably feels that Laurel was the target of the worse of his behavior (can't argue with that). If he gets Laurel on his side, then he has atoned in some way. It's an unhealthy emotional connection, but I could see Oliver holding on too it.

 

Like I said, over-analyzing. 

 

I know KC meant it in a different way, but I just can't see it that way.

Edited October 5, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[apinknightmare]

I don't think Oliver needs Laurel. At all. But if I were to over-anazyle it, I would say Oliver doesn't need Laurel for "Laurel." I think he feels a lot of guilt for who he used to be and he probably feels that Laurel was the target of the worse of his behavior (can't argue with that). If he gets Laurel on his side, then he has atoned in some way. It's an unhealthy emotional connection, but I could see Oliver holding on too it.

 

Like I said, over-analyzing. 

 

I know KC meant it in a different way, but I just can't see it that way.

 

Well, as far as Oliver needing Laurel, that's not even Katie's opinion, it was flat-out written into the show when Sara told Laurel that on the docks. True, it doesn't really make sense based on what we've seen in the show, but that's not on her.

[JenMcSnark]

It was written into the show as Sarah's opinion...not necessarily the truth.  

 

But I would like to see Oliver and Laurel have a healthy relationship for a change.  But as others have said, it needs to be earned.  By both of them I would say. Perhaps this "partnership" will be the start of that.  I just sinceriously hope that it isn't the start of the OTP of O/L.  I don't see any amount of reparations as being enough to heal their romantic relationship. 

[apinknightmare]

It was written into the show as Sarah's opinion...not necessarily the truth. 

 

Well, I think Sara expressed it as an opinion as a way of relaying that to the audience (since it's not obvious via the storytelling, which is obviously a failure). And I do think it's the truth as far as the people writing this show are concerned. They just utterly fail at actually being able to write/show that.

[fantique]

While girl power and healthy female friendships (saying that as a girl; sometimes female "friendship" is the shorter version of "who needs enemies?") are always appreciated and revelled in, I agree that gratuitous girl bonding gets annoying really fast. That's why anything but a slow burn friendship would just look stupid to me. Laurel completely comes across (to me) as a girl that views other girls are competition and it would seem more natural for her to be weary of Felicity but I would appreciate some character growth in her realising that she is not owed her affiliation to the Team and that she needs to get along with members other than Oliver. At least gratitude that they were there for him when she wasn't. That would make me like her more because she would be thinking of someone else's perspective for once. I think Laurel could learn to appreciate a friendship with someone doesn't judge but knows enough of her complicated life to offer her another perspective and Felicity can... Well, I don't know what she would gain but I am sure she would feel more at ease if they were friends.

WRT how Oliver needs Laurel, I sincerely that was Sara's perspective on things because honestly that seems too effed up to me. If Sara's advice was he needs someone to bring out the light in him then I seriously don't know how Laurel is up for the job without some serious retconning and character rebuilding. Right now all Laurel represents to Oliver is who he was before (a douche) and how he has wronged people with his actions. All she has been able to offer up so far is that "she knows him super duper well"... Sure. Which is why even when evidence was pointing in his direction she had zero doubt on him not being the Hood. Also let's not forget the 5 years he spent changing radically with only murder and retribution on his mind. All she ever was for him was a mirage, a myth. Just like she is still a myth the writers are trying to sell us and most of us aren't buying. I really need to see massive change before I can conceive him "needing" her. Regardless of who Oliver ends up with or if he remains a monk his entire life, Lauriver being a couple would leave a bitter taste in my mouth and an expression of disbelief on my face. Their background with each other is too ridiculous to get over and they just are fundamentally wrong for each other. Because if the boat had never sunk, the flashbacks seem to indicate they would have just reproduced his parents relationship. That's just sad. And now that he changed, their dynamic seems to indicate they wouldn't be on equal footing and I hate those types of relationships.

 

Now onto more positive thoughts what interactions does everyone wish in and out of the Foundry? And, more importantly, what character would you like to see bring out a different side in another? To Mods: I hope this is still relevant since it's about relationships between characters?

For example (aside from seeing the women on the show interact more and develop friendships because most of these ladies are awesome and really fun to watch) I really want to see a weird confrontation of sorts between Malcolm and Walter. How does he feel about the man who is a father figure for his daughter? Would that make him face the one thing he can't, his own feelings of ineptitude vis-à-vis his children? Would he hate Walter or respect him? That sort of thing.

Edited October 6, 2014 by fantique

[Sakura12]

They barely showed Felicity and Sara's friendship so I don't know if I'll be able to take a forced Laurel and Felicity friendship. To me it will be just because Laurel needs to be there and not for story purposes. 

[KenyaJ]

I buy that Oliver needs Laurel professionally. But neither of them knows the present version of the other, so I have a hard time believing Oliver needs Laurel emotionally and vice versa. In order to get me to believe that, the writers need to lay a foundation for it. That said, I have absolutely no interest in watching them do it, and that's the ultimate issue. I want them to fix all the problems with Laurel, I just don't want any episode time devoted to it. Maybe they can do it in webisodes?

[statsgirl]

WRT how Oliver needs Laurel, I sincerely that was Sara's perspective on things because honestly that seems too effed up to me. If Sara's advice was he needs someone to bring out the light in him then I seriously don't know how Laurel is up for the job without some serious retconning and character rebuilding. 

I hope Sara meant it in the sense of "Oliver needs all the friends he can get" when she told Laurel that he needed Laurel as Sara was leaving yet again for an unknown length of time.  Let's hope that Laurel's speech about letting the darkness in means that she's not the light Sara was referring to.

 

I agree, Laurel strikes me as the kind of person who sees other women as competition, as well as not paying attention to those people she perceives as not important or who can't help her.

 

I really want to see a weird confrontation of sorts between Malcolm and Walter. How does he feel about the man who is a father figure for his daughter? Would that make him face the one thing he can't, his own feelings of ineptitude vis-à-vis his children? Would he hate Walter or respect him? That sort of thing.

I wonder if Malcolm would dismiss Walter as being too weak.  Malcolm thinks that a relationship is about controlling the other person, whether through money, manipulation or emotional control, and since Walter doesn't control Thea, to Malcolm he would be a failure.

 

 

Maybe they can do it in webisodes?

Webisodes would be a great idea.  They could show Laurel training and developing the skills to be the Black Canary, and it wouldn't take time away from the episodes themselves.

Edited October 6, 2014 by statsgirl

[wonderwall]

Webisodes would be a great idea.  They could show Laurel training and developing the skills to be the Black Canary, and it wouldn't take time away from the episodes themselves.

I'd rather see webisodes about what Team Arrow did over the summer more than Laurel training :p Because I'd rather watch Oliver and Felicity shamelessly flirt with one another. And because I want to see Digg more in action as well as his friendship with his team. 

 

OH I would SO want to see webisodes in Digg's POV, where Digg is the star. 

 

And then another set of webisodes in Thea's POV and what she did over the summer with Malcolm! Can't you just imagine the banter between these two? It would be glorious

Edited October 6, 2014 by wonderwall

[TanyaKay]

I vote for Diggle & Thea webisodes. Even minute long snippets would be great.

[pootlus]

...and then the behind the scenes bits with Willa and Barrowman goofing off because, well, just because.

[Actionmage]

Add me to the Dig and Thea  webisodes! Even if they talked about nothing but Bose speakers and Surface tablets, it would be great.

 

As to the Felicity/ Laurel friends question: Maybe nearer the end of the season. There would have to be growth/awareness from Laurel's side that she is not an authority on anything Oliver, ever. Then, decide that Felicity has her dad's ear and respect and actually see Felicity for the kickass civilian she is, not some appendage to Oliver. Then, there can be a start to a civil, two-way relationship.   As for Dig? See the above. Realize that Diggle is an amazing individual in his own right and proceed from there. 

 

I liked the idea of Ted Kord laughing at Laurel, not because of him simply laughing at Laurel ( Laurel does need that now and again), but because she has been shown to feel that she must play The Grown-Up, even with her own parents. Laurel seems very joyless, so having someone to add some lightness and humor to her world would be welcome. Especially after the insanity of the finale.

 

I would also like to have a scene or two where Dig and Felicity are working out; not necessarily a fighting practice, but Team Arrow needs to stay sharp mentally and physically, so  Oliver walks in on a boxing session one time, then a yoga session the next? Maybe even Diggle giving Sally a try?  Felicity doesn't need to be ripped to contribute to the team, but health is always a good thing. Plus? No overpriced membership contract!

[CabotCove]

The actors probably refer to the 3 of them as the "original team arrow" because that's how the majority of the fan-base views them and since it's not that big of a deal they just go with it.

 

 

Well I think its becomes problematic when such fan created things, that go against the flow of the show canon,  spread so wide and become regarded as the show canon. Its not just the actors/media saying it though, its that these kind of things are echoed back to the show, and they "rewrite" whats actually been shown. Thats what I find to be very concerning, I can live with seeing such myths in fandom/media/actors  but when it spread to the screen...  On top of that they say one thing and do another, it cant be a trio team when you have four official team members in the team now. The show cant have its cake and eat it too, they need to chose what they want to be, otherwise it could end up getting convulated. 

Edited October 6, 2014 by Conell

[quarks]

that go against the flow of the show canon,

 

 

The phrase "Team Arrow" was definitely used by fans before it ever got mentioned in the show, and I took that one in-show mention as a joking nod to the fans, nothing else - it's never been brought up again, even if I'm happily fanwanking that Felicity still uses it.  

 

Outside the show, however, I don't think using the term "original Team Arrow" is rewriting the show or going against what's already been shown.  After all, Oliver brought Felicity and Diggle in during the exact same episode, episode three, where he turned to Felicity to help him investigate the laptop and revealed his secret identity to Diggle. In Oliver's very next interaction with Felicity, Diggle was there.  So yes, they both started working with Oliver in the same episode. Once Felicity was more officially brought into the Arrow Cave, although Helena and Tommy made occasional appearances in the Arrow Cave, it was just the three of them from season 1, episode 14 until season 2, episode 4, when Sara first came into the Arrow Cave, and at that point she was only there for a couple of episodes.  The next person was Barry Allen, who was only in the Arrow Cave for one episode and was never part of the team.  Roy only joined in season two, episode 12, and Sara in season two, episode 13.

 

So, no, I don't think calling the three of them original Team Arrow is a rewrite in any sense or fan generated. Regarding the "four official members in the team now" - well, probably, but that's still somewhat arguable. In the last few episodes of season two, Roy quit the team, so wasn't an official member, then was unconscious for a bit, ditto; when he rejoined the team in the final episode, Sara was back with Team Arrow fighting next to Oliver as well, and then quit again.  I think the general idea is that over the summer, Team Arrow had four members: Oliver, Diggle, Felicity and Roy, but in the 2.5 comics it looks like poor Roy

spent a lot of the summer unconscious again, like, I'd say check the kid for brain damage but this is Roy, whoops, sorry that was mean

, meaning that the focus is back on Oliver, Diggle and Felicity, so it's not even clear that Team Arrow had four members over the summer.

 

Meanwhile, publicity photos suggested that as of May, Laurel was now part of Team Arrow, but I think it takes about one minute, if that, on this board to show how arguable that point is.  

 

As of now, it looks like next season, Team Arrow will be Oliver, Diggle, Felicity, Roy and Laurel, but both David Ramsey and Stephen Amell have said that Team Arrow can be a bit flexible. It's possible Sara might return to the team; it's possible Roy might leave and then return; it's possible that the producers will decide to keep Laurel out of the main team, it's possible that someone else will join; but all of that is just pure speculation on my part.  My main thing is, we won't really know who is in Team Arrow in season three until we see a few episodes.

 

So I don't think this is just fan response, or fan response directing the show: I think it's fans saying what they see on the show, and the show being pretty coy on what is going to happen with Team Arrow - to make sure we tune in.

Edited October 6, 2014 by quarks

[Chaser]

I want some Quentin and Diggle scenes 

[wingster55]

After all, Oliver brought Felicity and Diggle in during the exact same episode, episode three, where he turned to Felicity to help him investigate the laptop and revealed his secret identity to Diggle.

 

No he didn't. You're not in the team unless you know the secret/have seen the lair imo. Going to Felicity for help does not make her part of the team.

[apinknightmare]

No he didn't. You're not in the team unless you know the secret/have seen the lair imo. Going to Felicity for help does not make her part of the team.

 

If they're relying on her to get information to help them with their mission? Yeah, it does.

[wonderwall]

I'm going to maintain that season 1 was Team Hood and season 2 is Team Arrow. 

 

Felicity wasn't a founding member of Team Hood -- Because I feel only Oliver was the founding member

 

But Felicity, Digg, AND Oliver are the founding members of Team Arrow. 

[wingster55]

If they're relying on her to get information to help them with their mission? Yeah, it does.

Does that make Lance part of the team since he's helped? 

[apinknightmare]

Does that make Lance part of the team since he's helped? 

 

IMO? No. Oliver brought Felicity on the team (unknowingly at first) as someone whose specific skill set and capabilities he needed to pursue his particular mission.

 

Lance's actual job is to find criminals and bring them to justice - he'd be doing that with or without Arrow. He and Oliver just occasionally make each others' lives a little easier.

[willpwr]

I don't consider Lance as part of the team. He's someone that the team works with; both Lance and the team benefit from that relationship since the Hood helped out on some of his cases. If we were going by who has helped then we might as well include ARGUS, LOA, the Bratva, etc... and they are most definitely not part of the team. Just because someone helps doesn't make them part of a team, I think there has to be a certain element of trust, even though Felicity didn't know about the Hood, she helped even though she was smart enough to realize she was being lied to and quite honestly did not benefit from helping out because even though Oliver was her boss, her job at QC wasn't to risk getting involved in illegal activity. Felicity's job wasn't as a hacker, it was as an IT girl.

 

Diggle was his bodyguard and quit, then went back to team up with Oliver while being very aware of the risks.

Felicity, when informed, never seemed to want to turn Oliver into the police, she also realized the risks.

 

Quentin, as a police officer/detective, was involved with some of the cases due to his job. He wanted to arrest the Vigilante.

Laurel as an attorney, next as a DA was involved with some of the cases due to her job. She definitely benefitted more from his help than he did from her. She also at one point wanted to arrest the Vigilante.

[apinknightmare]

Also, this debate over who was a part of the team and when is moot IMO. In the first season, Oliver was going after people on his father's list (with the occasional nabbing of non-Undertaking criminals like the Dodger). When Felicity and Diggle went to Lian Yu and brought Oliver back to Starling City, that was the beginning of a new chapter for Arrow - the mission changed, the tactics changed. Arrow and his mission as they currently exist? That did start with the three of them.

[JayKay]

I'm going to maintain that season 1 was Team Hood and season 2 is Team Arrow.

Felicity wasn't a founding member of Team Hood -- Because I feel only Oliver was the founding member

But Felicity, Digg, AND Oliver are the founding members of Team Arrow.

I like this perspective, though the naming semantics of the show can be mystifying. I don't feel like Felicity became an official member of Team Arrow (as it was) until she learned Oliver's identity, but she was more of an honorary or freelance member when she unknowingly helped the Vigilante.

Which reminds me of one of the cool things about the concept of Team Arrow. It's kind of like Banksy or some similar group who stand for something. Unlike Batman who is Batman and has (sometimes Bat-themed) allies, the "Arrow" is composed of a group of people in a way. Oliver didn't name himself or intentionally micromanage the image of the Arrow. He's a mysterious figure defined by his actions, which as we know, are decided and guided by a team of people.

When Oliver goes out in green, he becomes the embodiment of all three of Team Arrow's wills to do good. He's a human Megazord built of his own drive for justice combined with the ideals of the people who believe in him to realize them.

[statsgirl]

As to the Felicity/ Laurel friends question: Maybe nearer the end of the season. There would have to be growth/awareness from Laurel's side that she is not an authority on anything Oliver, ever. Then, decide that Felicity has her dad's ear and respect and actually see Felicity for the kickass civilian she is, not some appendage to Oliver. Then, there can be a start to a civil, two-way relationship.   As for Dig? See the above. Realize that Diggle is an amazing individual in his own right and proceed from there.

 

I'd like to see Laurel in her own area of competence first, putting away the criminals that the Arrow catches and working as an extension of the team rather than on the Team proper.  Then, after she's accepted that she doesn't need to control everyone and the world won't fall apart, she can start meeting Felicity and Diggle and Roy on equal terms.

 

As for the webisodes, all those would be great.  But I was referring to seeing Laurel becoming the Black Canary in terms of her training and development, I'd rather have those in webisodes and put the Diggle/Quentin/Thea on the main show.

[KenyaJ]

Also, this debate over who was a part of the team and when is moot IMO.

 

Other than trying to minimize Felicity's importance to the team, I don't even get the purpose of this debate, TBH.

[apinknightmare]

Other than trying to minimize Felicity's importance to the team, I don't even get the purpose of this debate, TBH.

 

I think that's the only purpose.

[TanyaKay]

Other than trying to minimize Felicity's importance to the team, I don't even get the purpose of this debate, TBH.

 

Spot on.

[BkWurm1]

I desperately hope Ted [Grant] responds to her uptight disapproval by laughing his ass off and kissing her when he's still all sweaty from working out. Tommy and Oliver were both afraid of her.

 

I've tried many time to think of ways to improve Laurel but this has got to be the best idea I've heard.  It would FINALLY give me a way into her character that I could believe.  The moment I read it I could SEE it happening and I swear for the first time, Laurel seemed like a real character rather than this outline on paper that never really works. 

 

Which of course means even if he's the slightest bit dismissive of her drama in the beginning, it won't last.

 

I hope I'm wrong but I have a hard time believing they can get it right when it comes to Laurel. 

[wingster55]

Marginalize or not make it more than it is?

[apinknightmare]

Marginalize or not make it more than it is?

 

She's a member of the team per the actual leader of the team, Oliver. He himself said that their mission started with the three of them (Oliver, Diggle and Felicity). By implying otherwise, yeah - you are marginalizing her. No one here is trying to make her more than she is.

Edited October 7, 2014 by apinknightmare

[wingster55]

He himself said that their mission started with the three of them (Oliver, Diggle and Felicity)

 

Because tv show writers never get things wrong. The mission did not start with them three..it didn't even start with Diggle..but Felicity joined late in the season.

To say otherwise ignores over half of s1.

[apinknightmare]

Because tv show writers never get things wrong. The mission did not start with them three..it didn't even start with Diggle..but Felicity joined late in the season.

To say otherwise ignores over half of s1.

 

Where did I say that writers don't get things wrong? Not that it matters in this instance...

 

And I'm not ignoring the first season, I'm actually taking it into account. Oliver began as the Hood, dispensing his vigilante justice and murdering people as he saw fit to cross people off of his father's list.

 

When Diggle and Felicity brought him back from the island, and he committed himself to becoming a better man and vigilante and subsequently became the Arrow, you know, the guy who's trying to save the city instead of crossing names off of a list on a mission from his father? That did begin with the three of them, and that's the course Oliver is on now - and that's not the writers making a mistake, and it's not trying to make Felicity more than she is. That's the actual canon of the show.

 

Edited to make this less snarky.

Edited October 7, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Chaser]

I don't think its ignoring half a S1. Its not about when the mission started, its not about when people were introduced, its not a bullet point timeline. Its when the team was solidified. I agree with SA. It was solidified at the Undertaking. Thats when they became one unit

[wingster55]

When Diggle and Felicity brought him back from the island, and he committed himself to becoming a better man and vigilante and subsequently became the Arrow, you know, the guy who's trying to save the city instead of crossing names off of a list on a mission from his father?

 

The list wasn't a focus this season but he did venture out of the list in s1 at the request of Diggle.

[dtissagirl]

People trying to minimize Felicity's importance also always seem to forget Oliver told her in The Odyssey that "Well, you're practically an honorary member of the team already". So Oliver thought she was already part of the team before she was officially in on the secret.

[Carrie Ann]

The list wasn't a focus this season but he did venture out of the list in s1 at the request of Diggle.

 

 

That's really splitting hairs and ignoring the point of that comment (that Oliver was the Hood in S1 and the Arrow in S2), and we're just going in circles. The show, its creators, and the majority of people posting in this thread believe that the team consists of three people (see the intro post at the top of every page); that it started being a true team when the three of them gelled as a unit, and that they are the core of that team regardless of other additions. You think Felicity's importance is overstated. Message absolutely received.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[wingster55]

She couldn't have been part of a team that she didn't know existed.

[apinknightmare]

She couldn't have been part of a team that she didn't know existed.

 

Well, she could if the people who form the team actually consider her to be one.

[wingster55]

..that's not how a team works. They could consider her a member all they like, but it doesn't make it so.

[SonofaBiscuit]

All I know is that I consider Team Arrow to be Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity.  The EPs can tell me that Roy is the fourth member, but I will never accept any other members outside of the trio, whether it's Sara, Lance, Roy, Barry, or Laurel.  Anyone else is free to create a Team Arrow out of whatever members they like.  Fine, whatever :)

[MostlyC]

Time to move on people.  If you have stated your opinion, you do not need to state it again.  We get it.

[Ceylon5]

This is not intended to open up the discussion again, but I thought I'd share a few cold, hard facts for those who, like me, like that kind of thing. To assess the affect that Felicity had on anyone else's time on the show when she went from very part-time in the first half of S1, to a full-time character and in-the-know member of Oliver's team from E14 of S1 onwards, I thought the shortest route would be to compare her time on episodes 1 to 12 of each season.  We know that the first half of S1 was her least screen-time and the general consensus is that she had her largest share of screen-time in the first half of season 2.  She only appears in 7 of the first 12 episodes of S1, and for no more than 2 scenes in each, which made it quick and easy to assess her time.  For S2, since I had to FF through the episodes getting all her times anyway, I threw in Diggle's times as well.  

 

A word to my methodology: if a scene had 2 people talking to each other with someone else in the background out of earshot (e.g. Felicity and Oliver talking about Diggle while he was groaning with Vertigo overdose in the background), I counted that as a Felicity/Oliver alone scene, not a Team Arrow scene.  If, on the other hand, there was a scene where Oliver was, say, talking to Felicity and Diggle over the comms, and Felicity was the only one saying "go left" or "I lost him", but Diggle was sitting right next to her and watching everything that was going on, then I counted that as a Team Arrow scene, even though Diggle said little and Oliver was physically elsewhere.

 

To the facts (here's hoping my mental arithmetic did not fail me - counting up minutes and seconds is a pain in the neck).  These were the total times for S1 Eps 1-12 and S2 Eps 1-12:

Felicity/Oliver alone scenes (including phone-calls): S1 = 8min 22sec / S2 = 9min 52sec

Felicity/Oliver scenes with other people (e.g. Barry/Isabel), but without Digg (including phone-calls): S1 = 0 / S2 = 11min 52sec

Felicity/Oliver/Diggle scenes (no-one else present): S1 = 2min 27sec / S2 = 46min 59sec

Felicity/Oliver/Diggle scenes with others (like Sara, Barry or Roy): S1 = 0 / S2 = 20min 33sec

Felicity/Diggle scenes alone: S1 = 0 / S2 = 5min 21sec

Felicity/Diggle scenes with people other than Oliver: S1 = 0 / S2 = 2min 32sec (mostly Barry - unconscious Oliver didn't count)

Felicity alone: S1 = 0 / S2 = 30sec (when she went to check on the Vertigo alone...)

Felicity with people other than Oliver & Digg: S1 = 4min 46sec (Walter) / S2 = 9min 42sec (mostly Barry, but also Isabel & Det Lance)

And as a bonus, the following were Diggle's non-Felicity times for S2 Eps 1-12:

Diggle/Oliver alone: 10min 34sec

Diggle/Oliver with other people, but without Felicity: 8min 09sec

Diggle with neither Felicity or Oliver: 11min 03sec (mostly 206 scenes)

 

So, Felicity's time alone with Oliver was much the same from S1 to S2.  Diggle still had more scenes alone with Oliver than Felicity did in S2.  Felicity and Diggle both spent similar amounts of time with Oliver and other people (Felicity's were mostly at the office; Diggle's were his body-guarding and his personal mission in 206).  The vast majority of both Diggle's and Felicity's time on-screen were spent together in the second season: 75min25 in total (more than 70%).  And Diggle talks a lot more than people seem to think.

 

Times per episode:

201 = F: 15min10; D: 13min04

202 = F 5min02; D: 10min25

203 = F: 4min10; D: 5min07

204 = F: 5min46; D: 7min02

205 = F: 6min56; D: 7min03

206 = F: 8min29; D: 18min28

207 = F: 10min09; D: 6min18

208 = F: 18min36; D: 10min07

209 = F: 10min34; D 10min19

210 = F: 9min06; D: 8min10

211 = F: 4min33; D: 4min23

212 = F: 6min26; D: 5min52

TOTALS 201-212 = F: 104min57; D: 106min28  (Felicity's total for 101-112 was 15min35)

 

Conclusion:  Felicity fits more words into less time!  That girl talks waaaay too fast.

 

[KenyaJ]

I salute you, Ceylon! That was a lot of work, but it's nice to have actual numbers.

[Morrigan2575]

That's dedication.  I remember there was someone in the Smallville fandom who used to do that for every episodes with all of the regular characters. Except he/she didn't break it down that far.  It's actually really fascinating when you look at the numbers vs the impression left on the audience.  I'm guessing most impressions depend on how you feel about that particular character.