Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[apinknightmare]

Didn't he call her honey in the S4 crossover too?

[bijoux]

They've called each other hun and honey during their relationship. I just took it as tipsy, happy Oliver slipping up 

[catrox14]

Well, I just went down a rabbit hole of trying to find scenes where Oliver calls Felicity other terms of endearment and I came across this lovely compilation of s2 Olicity....and really...it's so obvious that Oliver was so in love with Felicity when he gave her the "life I lead" speech about Isobel and him saving her in State vs  Queen .Sigh.  And not a word of a lie... I still get SO emotional during the "I love you" in 2.23. It's just such a well done scene only to be confirmed later that it wasn't a ruse at all.

Help.

I loved all the s2 stealthy and obvious Olicity goodness so much.

Edited July 12, 2017 by catrox14

[SmallScreenDiva]

24 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Didn't he call her honey in the S4 crossover too?

 

22 minutes ago, bijoux said:

They've called each other hun and honey during their relationship. I just took it as tipsy, happy Oliver slipping up 

Oh, I guess my question was confusing ... I'm not questioning the whole "honey" thing, I'm not even questioning the "I gotcha honey" since SA pretty much admitted he said that by using it as an Olicity quote for an autograph. My question was whether Oliver has used endearments with past girlfriends. 

And yeah, @bijoux, I definitely took that as tipsy, happy Oliver slipping up. Boy thought (wrongly) that he and Felicity were getting back on track, which is why his pause, the small happy smile between kisses were a bit heartbreaking.

Edited July 12, 2017 by SmallScreenDiva
subject-verb agreement

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Oh, I guess my question was confusing ... I'm not questioning the whole "honey" thing, I'm not even questioning the "I gotcha honey" since SA pretty much admitted he said that by using it as an Olicity quote for an autograph. My question was whether Oliver has used endearments with past girlfriends. 

Oh no- I was responding to @leopardprint's comment that it was OOC for Oliver to call her that since he's done it before. I forgot to quote!

[leopardprint]

Oh I didn't remember that from the S4 crossover. I remember he made a crack about the geek squad and then Felicity said, "I heard that, honey." or something. I think OOC is too strong but he doesn't like cutesy names for TA and their base but otoh he has a nickname for Thea and his humor is decidedly dad-ish. 

[ComicFan777]

Also during the crossover (Flash 2x08) in the magnetic arrow scene, Oliver said "Felicity, honey, it's a little hard to fight with you doing that in my ear."

Edited July 12, 2017 by ComicFan777

[bijoux]

Also also, there was the hun business in 406. At the time, I thought it was just nerves from keeping up the ruse in front of Donna (How did that important doctor's appointment go, hun?), but later instances proved it was their thing.

36 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Oh no- I was responding to @leopardprint's comment that it was OOC for Oliver to call her that since he's done it before. I forgot to quote!

Ditto.

40 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

 

Oh, I guess my question was confusing ... I'm not questioning the whole "honey" thing, I'm not even questioning the "I gotcha honey" since SA pretty much admitted he said that by using it as an Olicity quote for an autograph. My question was whether Oliver has used endearments with past girlfriends. 

Not that I can remember. But none of his other relationships had the same weight as his and Felicity's did and has.

46 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Well, I just went down a rabbit hole of trying to find scenes where Oliver calls Felicity other terms of endearment and I came across this lovely compilation of s2 Olicity....and really...it's so obvious that Oliver was so in love with Felicity when he gave her the "life I lead" speech about Isobel and him saving her in State vs  Queen .Sigh.  And not a word of a lie... I still get SO emotional during the "I love you" in 2.23. It's just such a well done scene only to be confirmed later that it wasn't a ruse at all.

Help.

I loved all the s2 stealthy and obvious Olicity goodness so much.

 

301 was on last night. They were so bright, shiny and adorable in it. I turned it off after the QC meeting so as not to harsh my buzz.

[BkWurm1]

I haven't seen the "And you are not done fighting yet" scene in a long time.  A scene that is just as strong as it ever was, even after all that we've had since.  I always thought that it was this scene that made his "he took the wrong woman" line ring so very, very true in the not fake I love you fake out.  

[bijoux]

Circling back to hun (sorry), I have to say I love it on another level besides Olicity. Hun is a Donna thing and I find it great and telling that Felicity internalized that you call people you love hun, while her default for literal years seemed to be oh my, God, mom! It just adds to it. 

[lemotomato]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Well, I just went down a rabbit hole of trying to find scenes where Oliver calls Felicity other terms of endearment and I came across this lovely compilation of s2 Olicity....and really...it's so obvious that Oliver was so in love with Felicity when he gave her the "life I lead" speech about Isobel and him saving her in State vs  Queen .Sigh.  And not a word of a lie... I still get SO emotional during the "I love you" in 2.23. It's just such a well done scene only to be confirmed later that it wasn't a ruse at all.

Help.

I loved all the s2 stealthy and obvious Olicity goodness so much.

It always amuses me when people claim that Olicity showed up out of nowhere in season 3, because there was SO MUCH Olicity in season 2. Season 2A was arguably the most 'shippy stretch of the show, second only to 4A when they were living together. So many good scenes. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

30 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

It always amuses me when people claim that Olicity showed up out of nowhere in season 3, because there was SO MUCH Olicity in season 2. Season 2A was arguably the most 'shippy stretch of the show, second only to 4A when they were living together. So many good scenes. 

Definitely! I had a "discussion" about that with somebody on the Arrow FB page a while back. This dude made the same claim so I listed the S2 stuff. THEN, I went back and listed the S1 setup. It's all right there! And it's all typical ship setup. It's much clearer in retrospect, too. While I was watching S2, both Sara and Laurel were still muddying the waters so I definitely was going "what kind of game is the show playing, pick a damn lane!" But 223 AND 301 pretty much sealed the deal.

About the "honey," I like it. It feels very domestic. I didn't think Oliver — or Felicity, for that matter — was prone to using endearments but he sounded natural when he uses it for Felicity. That's where my curiosity about possible previous endearments for others came from. He and LL were together long enough that it probably would have been a thing, too.

Edited July 12, 2017 by SmallScreenDiva
added "honey" stuff

[wonderwall]

1 minute ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Definitely! I had a "discussion" about that with somebody on the Arrow FB page a while back. This dude made the same claim so I listed the S2 stuff. THEN, I went back and listed the S1 setup. It's all right there! And it's all typical ship setup. It's much clearer in retrospect, too. While I was watching S2, both Sara and Laurel were still muddying the waters so I definitely was going "what kind of game is the show playing, pick a damn lane!" But 223 AND 301 pretty much sealed the deal.

I made a meta a long time ago about this to address that 'complaint':

http://smoakd.tumblr.com/post/125872976746/the-evolution-of-olicity

[SmallScreenDiva]

15 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

I made a meta a long time ago about this to address that 'complaint':

http://smoakd.tumblr.com/post/125872976746/the-evolution-of-olicity

Oh, I think I've read that. Nice job, @wonderwall! 

[wonderwall]

Just now, SmallScreenDiva said:

Oh, I think I've read that. Nice job, @wonderwall! 

It's not well written by any means but hopefully it makes sense and flows well haha

Thanks!

[Morrigan2575]

27 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

It always amuses me when people claim that Olicity showed up out of nowhere in season 3, because there was SO MUCH Olicity in season 2. Season 2A was arguably the most 'shippy stretch of the show, second only to 4A when they were living together. So many good scenes. 

I remember having long discussions/debates about Olicity in S2. Was the jungle swing a tease or hinting at something?  Did Oliver mean Felicity or in general when giving that "life I lead speech"? Was Oliver jealous of Barry? Was Sara's comment and look about light in 219 referring to Felicity or just Shipper glasses?

Good times, good times.

I agree it was all there. I think some were blinded by comics (bias or disbelief the show would switch it up) others saw it and realized yes this is happening. 

Edited July 12, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[DrSpaceman10]

I think what confuses some people was the transition from a ton of Olicity in 2A to almost none in 2B (until the last few episodes at least). Basically, from 213 to 220ish, when Sara joined the team full time/the lunge happened (both of which I still think were a huge mistake) there was very little Oliver/Felicity interaction. I personally still think there was enough in the first half and the last three episodes to make up for it, but I think that threw some people off. 

[leopardprint]

I didn't watch S2 live but I remember I sideeyed Oliver for hooking up with Isabel from the terrible friend perspective because she treated Felicity horribly and she so easily manipulated him (in retrospect, not that surprising) so the "life I lead stuff" was a bit odd to me at the time. Like, hook up with some random chick dude, but apparently "disdainful" women are his type (Laurel, Samantha, Isabel, Susan). Hmmmm, someone has mom issues. 

Edited July 12, 2017 by leopardprint

[SmallScreenDiva]

18 minutes ago, DrSpaceman10 said:

I think what confuses some people was the transition from a ton of Olicity in 2A to almost none in 2B (until the last few episodes at least). Basically, from 213 to 220ish, when Sara joined the team full time/the lunge happened (both of which I still think were a huge mistake) there was very little Oliver/Felicity interaction. I personally still think there was enough in the first half and the last three episodes to make up for it, but I think that threw some people off. 

For all my frustrations with regards to how Arrow handles Olicity, the show does make it a point not to let too much time pass before reminding people that Oliver & Felicity are the show's main romance. Despite the fact Oliver and Sara were banging each other by 214, the show was still reminding viewers of Oliver & Felicity at-that-time-ambiguous relationship ("You'll always be my girl, Felicity"). In 218, Oliver was immobilized by conflicting advice until Felicity stepped up and spoke up, telling him to "Go, get Thea. Stop Slade. End this once and for all," highlighting the importance of Felicity's opinion. 

Even in S5A, for all the talk about writing away from the romance, from episodes 1-5 Oliver & Felicity were still being framed by the show as a unit, as a team within the team. I mean, the noobs were referring to them as "Mom & Dad." Remembering his romantic history with Felicity was one of the things that shook Oliver out of the aliens' brainwashing in 508 and, of course, in 509 they had Oliver kill Felicity's current BF. 510 was all about them. I honestly can't remember what happened in 511-518 but I think there were some Olicity moments, or at least reminders that these 2 were in a relationship. And 519 and 520 were all Olicity. 

[tv echo]

The Flash 2x08 (Legends of Today):
Felicity: (Lowers voice) "'Felicity, magnetic arrow gag will never work!' (Normal voice) Huh, 'yes, it will, my love, because I am really smart.'  And guess what, Oliver? It did work."
Oliver (over comms): "Felicity? Honey? It's a little hard to fight with you doing that in my ear."
Felicity: "Oh! I totally forgot this was an open line! Keep doing what you're doing - make smart decisions."

Arrow 408 (Legends of Yesterday):
Carter: "Yeah, Staff of Horus."
Barry: "Well, it's protected by some kind of energy field. I couldn't lay a finger on it."
Felicity: "Maybe if you wear mittens next time."
Caitlin: "What if we made some sort of insulated gauntlets?"
Cisco: "Oh, yeah, yeah, the magnetic shielding could disrupt the -"
Felicity: "The staff's magnetic polarity."
Oliver: "Well, while the geek squad works -"
Felicity: "Heard that, honey."

Edited July 12, 2017 by tv echo

[wonderwall]

It really makes me giggle that Oliver/Felicity are THAT couple who call each other honey :')

The big bad vigilante turns into a big softie when it comes to Felicity Smoak. That's so beautiful

Edited July 12, 2017 by wonderwall

[LeighAn]

4 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Since "I gotcha, honey" is apparently canon, per the quote SA wrote for somebody asking for an autograph at a con ... do we know if Oliver has used endearments with his past girlfriends, or is this a Felicity thing? 

For Olicity:

He called her "honey" in the Flash crossover in season 2/arrow season 4. It also looks to some people that he mouths "come here baby" when he breaks her free of the gas chambers in 4x09- but it wasn't audio so we can't say for sure that's what he said.

 

Felicity also called Oliver "my love" and "honey" in both the flash and arrow crossover eps in season 2 and 4 respectively.

 

Other then that I can't think of any pet names.

 

Regards to other girls:

I don't recall any for Laurel or Sara and he wasn't with his other love interests long enough to adopt pet names or terms of endearments so I'm calling it a Felicity only thing ;)

[LeighAn]

56 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

For all my frustrations with regards to how Arrow handles Olicity, the show does make it a point not to let too much time pass before reminding people that Oliver & Felicity are the show's main romance. Despite the fact Oliver and Sara were banging each other by 214, the show was still reminding viewers of Oliver & Felicity at-that-time-ambiguous relationship ("You'll always be my girl, Felicity"). In 218, Oliver was immobilized by conflicting advice until Felicity stepped up and spoke up, telling him to "Go, get Thea. Stop Slade. End this once and for all," highlighting the importance of Felicity's opinion. 

Even in S5A, for all the talk about writing away from the romance, from episodes 1-5 Oliver & Felicity were still being framed by the show as a unit, as a team within the team. I mean, the noobs were referring to them as "Mom & Dad." Remembering his romantic history with Felicity was one of the things that shook Oliver out of the aliens' brainwashing in 508 and, of course, in 509 they had Oliver kill Felicity's current BF. 510 was all about them. I honestly can't remember what happened in 511-518 but I think there were some Olicity moments, or at least reminders that these 2 were in a relationship. And 519 and 520 were all Olicity. 

Also in season 2b they had multiple scenes where Oliver would open up or turn to Felicity about things he wouldn't with Sara his girlfriend. And where Felicity would get through to him where Sara couldn't. 

 

I think Oliver/Sara was much like Oliver/Laurel in season 1 a way to get them over with and out the way so they not hanging around like a bad smell with the audience waiting for them to happen. Per the writers own words they had decided to commit to Olicity at the start of season 2 so I think they wrote Oliver/Sara to service Olicity by both seeing Oliver settle down some what and become the boyfriend guy while also highlighting why Sara is wrong for Oliver and Felicity is right. 

[ohjoy]

11 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Well, I just went down a rabbit hole of trying to find scenes where Oliver calls Felicity other terms of endearment and I came across this lovely compilation of s2 Olicity....and really...it's so obvious that Oliver was so in love with Felicity when he gave her the "life I lead" speech about Isobel and him saving her in State vs  Queen .Sigh.  And not a word of a lie... I still get SO emotional during the "I love you" in 2.23. It's just such a well done scene only to be confirmed later that it wasn't a ruse at all.

Help.

I loved all the s2 stealthy and obvious Olicity goodness so much.

I could quibble about the order in which these placed (3, 4, and 5 are among my absolute faves in the entire series) but the selection as a whole is so very spot on. Honorable mention to Oliver swinging Felicity over the staircase when Slade attacked the lair: I had skipped several episodes at that point (I realized later that I was waiting for the light at the end of the O/S tunnel), but after hearing about that move I actually searched out the episode so I could watch the scene in context.

[bijoux]

9 minutes ago, TelleJoie said:

I could quibble about the order in which these placed (3, 4, and 5 are among my absolute faves in the entire series) but the selection as a whole is so very spot on. Honorable mention to Oliver swinging Felicity over the staircase when Slade attacked the lair: I had skipped several episodes at that point (I realized later that I was waiting for the light at the end of the O/S tunnel), but after hearing about that move I actually searched out the episode so I could watch the scene in context.

Possibly my favorite stunt.

[BkWurm1]

11 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

For all my frustrations with regards to how Arrow handles Olicity, the show does make it a point not to let too much time pass before reminding people that Oliver & Felicity are the show's main romance. Despite the fact Oliver and Sara were banging each other by 214, the show was still reminding viewers of Oliver & Felicity at-that-time-ambiguous relationship ("You'll always be my girl, Felicity"). In 218, Oliver was immobilized by conflicting advice until Felicity stepped up and spoke up, telling him to "Go, get Thea. Stop Slade. End this once and for all," highlighting the importance of Felicity's opinion. 

Even in S5A, for all the talk about writing away from the romance, from episodes 1-5 Oliver & Felicity were still being framed by the show as a unit, as a team within the team. I mean, the noobs were referring to them as "Mom & Dad." Remembering his romantic history with Felicity was one of the things that shook Oliver out of the aliens' brainwashing in 508 and, of course, in 509 they had Oliver kill Felicity's current BF. 510 was all about them. I honestly can't remember what happened in 511-518 but I think there were some Olicity moments, or at least reminders that these 2 were in a relationship. And 519 and 520 were all Olicity. 

I remember at some point during last season saying this might end up being a season that becomes a lot more watchable once we know how it all turns out. Conversely, season four became less so, lol.   

2 hours ago, TelleJoie said:

I could quibble about the order in which these placed (3, 4, and 5 are among my absolute faves in the entire series) but the selection as a whole is so very spot on. Honorable mention to Oliver swinging Felicity over the staircase when Slade attacked the lair: I had skipped several episodes at that point (I realized later that I was waiting for the light at the end of the O/S tunnel), but after hearing about that move I actually searched out the episode so I could watch the scene in context.

I would absolutely add that stunt to the list of things to remind the audience that Olicity was a thing in 2B.  Every little morsel we got was eagerly gobbled up.  

Edited July 13, 2017 by BkWurm1

[LeighAn]

Yeah I'm planning to rewatch season 5 before the new season starts because I think with out the weekly dose of fandom panic the season will fair better on second viewing. At least I want to test the theory anyway. 

 

I also want want to do a season 4 rewatch eventually as I haven't watched that since it aired.

[Mellowyellow]

@tv echo thanks for the scans! Especially the one of the kiss in the GA suit. I'm partial to that kiss and I love the smushy noses.

It looks different to the pic that floated around after 523 aired. I don't think their noses were smushed in the earlier pics. 

[statsgirl]

From the spoiler thread about MGs comments re 5x05

Quote

Marc said that Episode 5 is a HUGE Olicity episode. I asked him if Oliver was giving up and he said, “No! No no non no!” But then he paused and said, “That said, Felicity does say to him, ‘You keep waiting for things to go back to the way they were.’’” She’s talking about the team, but the subtext is their relationship. So then I asked, “But are we going to see a rebuild?” And Marc smiled and said, “Yes.” And then I said, “Oliver’s still working on becoming the man that Felicity wants and needs??” He smiled and said, “Yes. Absolutely.” Then I said, “But it’s going to be a process? A long journey?” And he smiled again and said YES.

2 hours ago, LeighAn said:

That is verbatim what Marc told her- if people jumped to the conclusion that Olicity were getting back together from that that's on them not on her, and was what Marc told her. I don't think it's fair to attack another person publicly even if it wasn't  too her personally like I saw some of the fandom do to her just because Marc sold the episode in a way fans didn't appreciate.

 

And also Marc and Wendy were selling episode 5 as an Olicity episode in interviews not just to JBuffy so....

MG said that it was a "HUGE Olicity episode" and he was emphatic in stressing that Oliver was not going to give up on Felicity, and that fans were going to like it.  In reality, Olicity took up a small part of the episode itself (although the effects were big) and what happened is that Oliver gave up on Felicity.  As in he gave up on her and all the "no, no, no' non" that MG said doesn't change that.  MG also said "BUT they are going to dig deep on it. It’s going to be a HUGE part of her arc this year. BIG."  Which also didn't happen on screen.  If he was referring to Helix, it was Diggle who got her involved with them, followed by Susan's and Oliver's kidnappings.

Maybe the straw men who were calling for an episode in Bed, Bath and Beyond expected them to get married.  I thought from MG and WM's comments that Oliver and Felicity were going to start to find their way to getting back together, not that Oliver was going to give up on Felicity and look elsewhere, starting a relationship with the skeevey reporter and they would act like strangers who barely knew each other for the next six episodes.  The idea that it was a good thing for Oliver and Felicity to make a complete break is Jbuffy's personal spin on an episode that disappointed most Olicity fans contrary to what MG said would happen.  It has no validity in relationship therapy because it totally failed to address the problem in Oliver and Felicity's relationship.

That is why I find it impossible to believe MG and WM.

[LeighAn]

If you chose to focus on 5x05 out of context then sure there was no journey no fighting, and it would seem like Oliver giving up but  the episode with in the context of the whole journey for the season in some small way was a hurdle to get over to lead to or get back to this:

 

And this:

And This:

And this: 

And this:

And This:

And this:

 

 

And this:

 

And this:

And this: 

 

To me there was a slow rebuild and there was Oliver fighting for Felicity not through grand romantic movie gestures but through over coming inner demons that were prohibiting him from being a better partner for Felicity. So in that sense I don't see the lie in what Marc and Wendy are saying. I see people objecting to how Marc and Wendy got their characters there and that's fine that's their preference. I for one was okay with the journey ups and downs inclusive even though of course I would have preferred more but I'm glad that we've got through the (network mandated) break to come back together part so we can get to the being fully committed married with a stronger less breakable foundation part.

Edited July 22, 2017 by LeighAn

[apinknightmare]

I also can't really blame the guy for moving on after Felicity repeatedly told him there wasn't a chance, and that there wasn't a door open for the two of them. I can blame him for his choice of moving on partner though, who was utter trash.

[LeighAn]

12 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

 I can blame him for his choice of moving on partner though, who was utter trash.

My only justification was Felicity and Oliver had to date trash love options like Billygoat and Snoozan to really understand that it's slim pickings out there so fix their sh@t!!! Haha:P

Edited July 22, 2017 by LeighAn

[Mellowyellow]

But they're attractive superheroes!!!

She went from billionaire Ray to Mayo!!!! I think that offended me more than the stall. The fact that they didn't bother casting a more impressive LI for her!

Both my Olicity and Raylicity self were super angry!

[leopardprint]

1 minute ago, Mellowyellow said:

But they're attractive superheroes!!!

She went from billionaire Ray to Mayo!!!! I think that offended me more than the stall. The fact that they didn't bother casting a more impressive LI for her!

Both my Olicity and Raylicity self were super angry!

But then you'd have a third ship for Felicity...you'd be fighting fires all over this board. ?

[LeighAn]

5 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

But they're attractive superheroes!!!

She went from billionaire Ray to Mayo!!!! I think that offended me more than the stall. The fact that they didn't bother casting a more impressive LI for her!

Both my Olicity and Raylicity self were super angry!

That's tv land rules though. When you are the stall person you are usually mildly less attractive then the OTP depending on how serious your relationship is or not. My theory from many years of trash teen show watching haha.

Edited July 22, 2017 by LeighAn

[Featherhat]

2 hours ago, LeighAn said:

That's tv land rules though. When you are the stall person you are usually mildly less attractive then the OTP depending on how serious your relationship is or not. My theory from many years of trash teen show watching haha.

But don't you remember that Susan was a good person who was most definitely a real deal? Rolls. Eyes. They didn't even bother for Billy since his only purpose was to have sex and die.

[Mellowyellow]

3 hours ago, leopardprint said:

But then you'd have a third ship for Felicity...you'd be fighting fires all over this board. ?

One thing the unfortunate Mayo incident taught me was how everyone else must have felt during s3 while I was swooning over Ray.

[statsgirl]

While I hated the stupid plotting of Felicity dating Billy for no reason that we were ever told, and right after lair sex with Oliver, I liked Billy himself. If I hadn't been shipping her with Oliver, Billy would have been the perfect boyfriend for Felicity.  He was accepting of her ridiculous hours before he knew why and gave her the freedom to do whatever she wanted.  Even when he found out she was working with the Green Arrow on the other side of the law, he still helped her.  From the time Oliver distanced himself from Felicity at the end of 5x05 until Billy was killed by Oliver, Billy was the only one on the show who cared about her emotional state.

If they were trying to build Oliver and Felicity in the first 18 episodes of s5, the writing was utter rubbish. Oliver dropped interacting with Felicity in an emotional way as soon as he found out about Billy, left her crying alone after he had killed Billy (and so did everyone else on the team), didn't notice that Felicity was behaving strangely until Rory told him to pay attention to her, gave a podium speech to Felicity and Diggle telling them to be better than he is and then assumed Felicity was doing okay because of his speech even it was important enough to him that he checked that Diggle was okay. The rest of the season until 5x19 was Felicity doing her usual support and propping of Oliver while he acted like she was just another person on the team. And don't get me started on telling to Felicity to save his relationship with Susan. 

Among Oliver, Ray and Billy, Billy was the only one who never lied to Felicity or put himself ahead of her when they were supposed to be "partners". 

I didn't like the BMD and how s4 ended but I was still an Olicity shipper.  Oliver and the bad interactions of s5 was worse. Seasons 4b and 5 got me off the Olicity train and while I'm happy for all the Olicity shippers here, I'm still not back on board and that's wholly on the s5 writing.. 

Edited July 23, 2017 by statsgirl

[LeighAn]

Good for Billicity having one shipper :P 

[BkWurm1]

Quote

Among Oliver, Ray and Billy, Billy was the only one who never lied to Felicity or put himself ahead of her when they were supposed to be "partners".

1

I don't completely agree.  

When it mattered most, he didn't listen or appreciate her base of wisdom enough TO listen.  And it got him killed.  That's the same kind of crappy behavior she got with Ray and Oliver.  And I swear he let her think that he was listening to her, so I count that as a lie.    

Billy wasn't a bad guy but not being terrible isn't much of recommendation.  And from what we saw, he was kind of passive aggressive about meeting her friends and I'm not going to credit him with noticing when she was upset since Felicity LET him notice she was upset (I'm referring to when she confessed working with the GA otherwise I don't recall him really noticing).

Even after he accepted her involvement with the GA, he never really understood or was willing to understand what that meant IMO since when she was warning him, he took absolutely no heed.  And I don't want to rewatch the episode, but again, I could have sworn that he let Felicity think that he had promised not to get further involved, while immediately turning around and snooping ALONE (that can't be police protocol).

 Billy was never really tested relationship-wise to see what he was made of when the chips were all down.  He was there for neck rubs, coffee runs, running tests, providing evidence and as a 'distraction', but their relationship was only IMO tested twice.  Once when she revealed she worked with the GA and he mostly passed that (though I vaguely remember him being too interested in some aspect of the GA) but then he was already a fan of the GA as were many on the force at the time, so I can't attribute his flexible attitude with having her back alone.  

The second test was when she warned him of the danger of digging into Prometheus and to stay out of it.  It required he trust her judgment.  And he failed.  If he knew her at all, he'd have known it wasn't lightly given advice.  She knew he was a cop and didn't normally try to tell him what to do so he should have known she wasn't just being overly protective.  He knew she knew things he didn't, but her say so wasn't enough.  He ignored her and it led to his death.  

Maybe if he'd lived he would have evolved and have proved to be made out of stronger stuff than the bland mayo that we saw, but the mostly pleasant relationship they had existed IMO because of the fairly shallow nature of their relationship, a status that made Felicity not even consider him a real boyfriend so I have to give him less credit for looking after her emotional well being when I don't think he saw or knew even a fraction of it beyond what she was willing to share.  It was surface concern handled superficially and the surface level trust they'd built proved to be his downfall since it had no power when it really mattered.  So that alone keeps me from thinking Billy was better than Ray or Oliver proved to be.  He failed as badly as they did, only they got second chances after they made their mistakes of not listening to Felicity.  Billy didn't.    

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think the relationships can't be compared because Billy wasn't considered an option for Felicity at any point of the story..judging only for the little we saw he didn't do anything particularly disrespectful towards Felicity but he also didn't do anything great for her..so Oliver and Ray were both worse and better boyfriends than he was if that makes sense, LOL.

[LeighAn]

7 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

 

 Billy was never really tested relationship-wise to see what he was made of when the chips were all down.  He was there for neck rubs, coffee runs, running tests, providing evidence and as a 'distraction', but their relationship was only IMO tested twice.    

Yep. Billy was completely pigeon holed into the  rebound guy role by Felicity. He never met her friends, he never played a real role in her life outside of keeping her bed warm at night, and sex was treated rather casually between the two, she wouldn't even comfortably give him the title of boyfriend and up until his death she still wasn't really ready to change anything in regards to Billy. She still didn't like the idea of introducing him to her friends and she seemed more interested in parading him in front of Oliver and Susan as her boyfriend as some awkward jealous "I'm completely cool with Oliver having a date to his party" move. Even her "opening up" to Billy about working with the Green Arrow was more a cause and effect of Felicitys frustration at Oliver continue to "go it alone" and not trust her or the team- which was her underlining issue with him. Oliver was being an idiot so she was going to do the opposite and tell Billy the truth to prove he was being an idiot. Something she did with Ray to in season 3 when ever Oliver frustrated her.

 

In the context of 5x20 Flash backs it highlighted if anything Felicity was using Billy as a buffer to pushed her to move on from Oliver and keep her from giving in to her still persistent feelings. He was nice sure, but they didn't have a real relationship nor any depth, nor as you mentioned was the relationship or Billy ever tested to be more then the nice guy Felicity was rebounding with. So it's hardly a fair comparison to Oliver or even Ray who Felicity had actual real relationships with. It's like arguing that Susan or McKenna were better girlfriends then Felicity because Oliver went on a few dates with them and never had fights or any serious depth and Oliver seemed happy enough with them. It's comparing the shallow and superficial relationship to an actual serious and real relationship. It's no comparison.

 

Billy never got far enough in with Felicity for her to really test him as being the right guy and right relationship or not. Billy was just the convenient guy and relationship.

[lemotomato]

I find it hard to say that Billy was good to Felicity and the best of all her boyfriends when they dated for months and he didn't care enough about her to find out what she was really doing in her life when she wasn't with him. Like did he ever ask her how her day went? Or why she had to cancel on him (which I'm sure she must have done, considering her Team Arrow duties)? I'm supposed to accept that he's a detective and never suspected that she was lying to him or equivocating about her life? That's not giving her space or trusting her, that's deliberate indifference.

[Mellowyellow]

The actor who played Billy had the chemistry of a soggy tea towel with EBR. Oh so terrible. Especially after Ray who was a wonderful stall (imo I know you all loathed him). 

Thank goodness Felicity didn't seem to care about Billy all that much. I would have raged more if I thought she liked him more than Ray. 

[wonderwall]

In the end whatever is best for Felicity is whatever she wants and feels what's best for herself (she has enough self worth to know what she does and does not deserve). And she clearly didn't love or want Billy that much considering I'm pretty sure she knew in the back of her head (starting from episode 5) that what she had with Billy wasn't real. 

I'm not really a fan of forcing something on a character like that. Even if Billy was a better man and boyfriend than Oliver, it doesn't entirely mean he's better for Felicity because we all know she knows the one for her is Oliver. 

It's not about better in this case. It's about the right fit and what Felicity wants.

Edited July 24, 2017 by wonderwall

[JamieLynn832002]

I liked Ray. I wish they hadn't given him stalkerish tendencies early on but I did like him and while I prefer Olicity, I liked Raylicity. Billy on the other hand was horrible. He had no personality and we knew nothing about the relationship such as how/when they met. He was clearly there only as an Olicity stall and to be cannon fodder in the fight with Prometheus. Ray may have been largely a stall but he served other purposes and had a personality.

[Mellowyellow]

1 minute ago, JamieLynn832002 said:

I liked Ray. I wish they hadn't given him stalkerish tendencies early on but I did like him and while I prefer Olicity, I liked Raylicity. Billy on the other hand was horrible. He had no personality and we knew nothing about the relationship such as how/when they met. He was clearly there only as an Olicity stall and to be cannon fodder in the fight with Prometheus. Ray may have been largely a stall but he served other purposes and had a personality.

HALLOOOOO WELCOME TO PALMER ISLAND *gives you a welcome hug and hands you a pamphlet*

There's 3 of us on this forum?

[Featherhat]

I like Ray on LOT a whole lot, I like him with Mick., I like him enough with Nate, I like him with Lily I do not think BR's strengths are in romance on screen in general since I thought he was a better bet for Kendra than Carter and I still disliked them. Raylicity is probably a good case for "people who are perfect for each other on paper" etc but she did like him and he has a LOT of personality ;) .

[johntfs]

Maybe Billy would have worked better if he'd been played by Jason Ritter instead of Tyler Ritter.  Figure the sheer Nerdtasticness of Felicity Smoak dating Dipper Pines could have overcome many obstacles.

[Hiveminder]

11 hours ago, JamieLynn832002 said:

I liked Ray. I wish they hadn't given him stalkerish tendencies early on but I did like him and while I prefer Olicity, I liked Raylicity. Billy on the other hand was horrible. He had no personality and we knew nothing about the relationship such as how/when they met. He was clearly there only as an Olicity stall and to be cannon fodder in the fight with Prometheus. Ray may have been largely a stall but he served other purposes and had a personality.

Ray's stalker tendencies were off putting, but if I happened to randomly catch a scene between him and Felicity on TV without having any prior knowledge of Arrow or Olicity I would probably think they made sense. In that same situation I'm pretty sure I could plausibly mistake Billy/Felicity as distant cousins. Which is weird because Ray/Felicity have far more similarities.