Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Cleanqueen]

1 hour ago, AyChihuahua said:

He also managed to be with nearly everyone else when they were in the hospital. Thea in S1, Laurel in S2, Thea again in S3, Thea AGAIN in S4, Laurel in S4. 

With Thea in his mind there was really nobody there for her so he was the only one, with Felicity once he left after the first surgery everyone else was there. And with Laurel, I don't think at that time there was any real anger going through his mind but more grief. I think seeing Felicity shot and laying in his arms and knowing who was truly behind it made him act like he needed to kill DD right away and focus on that.

[LeighAn]

Was Oliver not being at the hospital selfish and putting his man pain above his own? Yes

Was he written that way because the writers are obtuse and probably thought it would be cool to see a Green Arrow on a rage spiral for the cool action scenes and didn't think the audience would look to deeper into the fact that he wasn't visiting his fiancé? Probably

Did the writing at least acknowledge that Oliver was wrong and have the other characters treat him like its wrong? Yes

Did I still enjoy his apology and seeing Oliver and Felicity vow for better and worst and discuss running away to Bali together? Yes. Because I can shallowly enjoy my ship like that sometimes haha.

Just my two cents.

[Mellowyellow]

When (if) they go back to to being epic I'm sure all will be forgiven and I won't remember any of Oliver’s dubious behaviour. It's a rough time being an Olicity shipper right now so I like to dwell on all the ways that Oliver has wronged Felicity and b#tch about it!

[ladylaw99]

This is the problem when the writing is so bad.  There are so many lanes to go down.  Everyone interpret it their own way. Not sure what the writers were trying to portray but I personally didn't enjoy any ep after 4.08.  I enjoy only certain  scenes but not a ep as a whole.

As for the hospital scene, I couldn't imagine not being at the hospital especially during major surgery which Felicity was having.  There are too many things that can go wrong and I personally  would never forgive myself for not being there.

[kismet]

On 1/16/2017 at 3:06 PM, statsgirl said:

They would have taken the ring off as they were prepping her for surgery because metal can cause sparks or mess up the monitoring equipment.  They would also have taken off her nail polish.  (@kismet, where are you?)

Oliver wouldn't have been allowed to be with Felicity during the surgery and in the recovery room.(Why do you think it would have lasted 24 hours?  I was thinking that they would have dealt with the immediate problems and then waited for the swelling to go down and see how she was doing, and then go back in for the subsequent surgeries in a few days.)  I can see him waiting in the waiting room until he heard that she was out of danger, and then he left.  But the question is whether he went back afterwards to see her before any subsequent surgeries or to be with her when she heard what the doctors had to say, and there isn't any indication that he did. In fact, every time he had a chance to or was told to go to her, he said  he couldn't because he had to go after DD.

I really want to see that addressed on the show. I doubt it will be because it's always about Oliver and the masks, but it makes a lot of sense in terms of Felicity's actions.

@ kismet is taking a break. But yes it is standard procedure in most hospitals to remove all jewellery and nail polish (at least one nail) pre-op. The jewellery is a infection control issue. It is the same reason they will remove your underwear if you leave it one. They want to keep as much non-sterile items out of the room. Majority of surgical staff where no personal jewellery during the procedure. And the nail polish is taken off because the paint can interfere with the light sensor probe they use for monitoring. And yes, OQ would not have been allowed in the surgical room. The recovery room is also unlikely, as that tends to have a no visitor policy. She probably went straight from the operating room to the ICU because of the complexity of her surgery, which also has visitor limitations. But ultimately, I think the show did not have time to fit this all into 45min or so. They should have made the episode a multi-parter or done a better job editing.

I hated the BMD because it was poorly conceived, executed and written. But I would take that any day over how they handled FSs paralysis storyline. It was not used to promote education or awareness on spinal cord injuries or disabilities. It was not used to explore FS as a person or O/F as a couple. It was used as a plot point to move the story along, increase OQ's pain and give Curtis something to create. And when there did need to be emotional beats they either skipped over them or just lumped it in with OQ's man pain. When I trace back my origin of my ongoing anger with the show it is the Paralysis story. Nothing about that story was a good choice from concept to execution. I can tolerate the for plot and shallow melodramatizations, but I have a hard time understanding why you would accept the responsibility of telling such a poignant story and then shit all over it. The only people I absolve is EBR & SA, because I feel like they made an effort to show the depth of emotions that occur when that particular tragedy strikes - when plot permitted it.

I work in healthcare and have been present for those conversations and tragic life events happen. It is very emotionally and logistically complicated. I do not feel like the writers room gave any serious consideration in addressing 1/10th of the issues spinal cord injuries would have on healthy adult in her 20s, never mind a couple soon to be married. So either the writers room is dumb or they are insensitive. And, I've decided that I don't really want to know that answer. Because I want to believe better about people.

[kismet]

On 1/16/2017 at 3:28 PM, insomniadreams88 said:

See, that's the problem with the BMD storyline. We have no idea when he went to CC because all we got was that one line in 412. It was never addressed. I'd like to say there's no way that he went to CC while she was in the hospital, but it doesn't look much better that he went to CC when she got home from the hospital and was adjusting to life in a wheelchair either and he had to if he was making trips to CC considering the timeline. Unless he made all those trips between 408 and 409, but where would he have had the time for that? 

I know that the line existed. Although, I would love to see the actual transcript, because I think the writing is different. I know that MG said he did go, but I think that was just the obstinate troll in MG coming out again. And I know a lot of the fandom fixates on these potential visits to CC. But my personal take on the line, is that he meant he was mentally distracted by the recent discovery in CC. Not actually making physical trips to the kid. And perhaps it was going to be something, but the writers room moved away from it pretty quickly. Because besides that line and MG's interview. There is no evidence the visitations occurred. William did not recognize OQ. And BM seemed to not be in touch with OQ. So until I see actual onscreen evidence of physical visits, I will firmly believe that it was more a mental visitation/distraction.

I also find him being distracted by the kid, despite FS's paralysis is acceptable. He just found out he had a child and was still dealing with how to handle it when his fiancee was paralyzed. I can understand him being absolutely there for FS and her recovery, but occasionally being mentally fixated by this new kid development. Especially when he wasn't able to talk to anyone about the kid. You can multitask emotional traumas to varying degrees of success. I think the point of that line was to remind the audience of BMD and give the audience a reason OQ was losing ground on defeating DD. Once again, it was not about FS or O/F at all.

[dtissagirl]

I'm sorry, WHAT even is a mental visitation? Was Oliver spacing out for hours at a time -- hence not paying attention to Thea, which was the text of the line [as opposed to the subtext of the line, which was the spawn] -- and calling those zoning out episodes "I've been running back and forth to Central City"? WHAT?

Edited January 18, 2017 by dtissagirl

[ComicFan777]

"She told me the bloodlust came back two months ago and I didn't even know. I've been focused on the campaign and I've been running back and forth to Central City..."

Yeah, to me, it definitely sounds like Oliver was making physical visits to William while Felicity was adapting to being paralyzed.
I don't think MG was trolling - I took it more as confirmation.

[kismet]

Well, I don't remember the specific line and don't feel like looking up the actual clip or script. I believe he was referencing going to CC to fight the crossover battle. Until the show on script clarifies OQ's line and specifically states he physically went to CC while FS was recovering. I'm choosing to believe he meant just the crossover visit (which was only a few weeks before & pre-injury) and any other reference was him being distracted by William.

Nobody else has to agree with me. But I honestly don't believe there is any in-show or canon evidence that OQ physically went to CC while FS was recovering from her injury. And one throw-away line in a heated conversation does not equal evidence for me. And frankly, for me it's not up for discussion because I believe what was shown to me (no visits, a mother/kid oblivious to visits) and others believe their interpretation of the words. It's poorly executed storypoint and frankly I don't think there will ever be on-show clarification, so it will always be a matter of opinions.

[insomniadreams88]

1 minute ago, kismet said:

Well, I don't remember the specific line and don't feel like looking up the actual clip or script. I believe he was referencing going to CC to fight the crossover battle. Until the show on script clarifies OQ's line and specifically states he physically went to CC while FS was recovering. I'm choosing to believe he meant just the crossover visit (which was only a few weeks before & pre-injury) and any other reference was him being distracted by William.

But Thea was with him in CC during the crossover visit. 

[AyChihuahua]

1 minute ago, insomniadreams88 said:

But Thea was with him in CC during the crossover visit. 

And it was once (aka not "back and forth," which doesn't mean a specific number but DEFINITELY means more than once), and it was quite some time prior so wouldn't have affected his ability to notice recent events with Thea.

[AyChihuahua]

12 minutes ago, kismet said:

Nobody else has to agree with me. But I honestly don't believe there is any in-show or canon evidence that OQ physically went to CC while FS was recovering from her injury.

That's basically saying "there's no evidence...except for these two large pieces of evidence that I don't like." HOWEVER, I know you're not the only person who just doesn't want to think that about Oliver and so mentally deletes it. I'm sure I do the same with some tv characters I love. Veronica Mars, for example.

Edited January 18, 2017 by AyChihuahua

[Midnight Lullaby]

I don't see how it can be a matter of opinion when there's a line in the show that tells us what happened. We can debate about what he said was doing when he was going to CC, if he outright lied or said a half truth, but that's because there's no line about that on the show. Or going with the same logic I could say when Laurel said the line about Oliver being the love of her life she was hallucinating Tommy because she was about to die and was talking about him instead. It would be less cringeworthy for me and kinder towards her but that's not what happened on the show.

And I also don't think MG was trolling. His stance is that Oliver did nothing wrong making the promise, keeping it and seeing his kid behind Felicity's back.

[rtalive]

God, why do people even ship this couple. I am so confused. He is this horrible boyfriend and yet people all over twitter want her back with him?!

As I see it from all the analyses how he strayed away and the whole son secret, Oliver wanted a way out, he is this man, scared of commitment. The whole 'will you marry me' was so unbelievable anyway. A guy like him would never propose after six months of relationship, especially when he knows that this girl is not going anywhere and is not in a hurry for marriage.

Felicity deserves better. Maybe she will find her committed, mentally and emotionally stable man after all, if the writers decide to let her really move on.

[AyChihuahua]

31 minutes ago, rtalive said:

God, why do people even ship this couple. I am so confused. He is this horrible boyfriend...

NOT BOYFRIEND, fiancé. They were not DATING, they were about to be MARRIED.

[statsgirl]

MG and WM wanted people to remember about the kid because it was going to come up in the next couple of episodes, so they put in the line " I've been running back and forth to Central City".  I don't think it was mentally going there because he said it to other people and if he hadn't been physically going there, they would have said "Central City?  What are you talking about? You've been here the whole time!"  So I'm pretty sure it was physical trips which means he was not only bailing on his newly paralyzed fiance but his sister who he knew had had troubles from the Lazarus Pit earlier.

I put it in the same category as Roy left twitching in the puddle as Ray and Oliver went off to bond, and no one comforting Felicity followed by Oliver going to Susan, or maybe even Felicity telling Laurel she has a light Sara didn't -- they wanted to say something for effect but did not anticipate how the audience reacted to it when it was shown (although they really should have thought about it).

[AyChihuahua]

Eh, I think the Roy-twitching was just pure old whoopsie. They legit forgot him, vs. an intentional decision that makes their characters look like assholes (bc, IMO, the writers are all Neptunians living/working on Earth under the auspices of the Men in Black Act and therefore cannot understand human emotions).

Edited January 18, 2017 by AyChihuahua

[dtissagirl]

Yeah, Roy was a directing/editing error. I doubt script staging said anything about forgetting him lying in a puddle. And since TPTB were apologizing for it during the airing of the episode, I'm pretty certain they caught it, but it was too late [or there was no money] to do anything about it. Considering it's an episode with Atom suit at work a whole bunch, I wouldn't be surprised if they ran out of money for reshoots + they were working on Atom VFX up to very close to broadcast.

The CC line was scripted, though. Remove the line and nothing changes re: Oliver not paying attention to Thea, because he was so busy with the campaign. The CC part is an add on to make audience go "wait, what".

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, rtalive said:

God, why do people even ship this couple. I am so confused. He is this horrible boyfriend and yet people all over twitter want her back with him?!

As I see it from all the analyses how he strayed away and the whole son secret, Oliver wanted a way out, he is this man, scared of commitment. The whole 'will you marry me' was so unbelievable anyway. A guy like him would never propose after six months of relationship, especially when he knows that this girl is not going anywhere and is not in a hurry for marriage.

Felicity deserves better. Maybe she will find her committed, mentally and emotionally stable man after all, if the writers decide to let her really move on.

Its been a  lot longer than 6 months. They have been together for a year at least. Oliver has loved her since s2. They were living together in another city and at the loft. They were engaged to be married.

Edited January 18, 2017 by catrox14

[HighHopes]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Its been a  lot longer than 6 months. They have been together for a year at least. Oliver has loved her since s2. They were living together in another city and at the loft. They were engaged to be married.

Were they together for over a year though? I mean, yes they slept together in 3x20, and he said ILY in s3. But they didn't actually become a couple until 3x23 (May 2015) since before that she was with Ray until 3x19 (March? April?). And then they broke up...February? 2016. So not a year. 

They were engaged to be married, yes. But my sister had her boyfriend propose (and then take it back because he "wanted to do it better") and then he never proposed again even though they were together for another 3 or so years. Just because you ask someone to marry you doesn't necessarily mean you want to go through with it. 

I used to believe that Oliver loved Felicity, but his actions have proved otherwise IMO. Oliver is a lot of talk and not a lot of action. When he says "for better or worse" but then actively fails to be around and be there for "the worse" those words do not matter. 

[insomniadreams88]

I think what went wrong was that they wanted to show that Oliver was trying to be a good father to William (despite Samantha's ridiculous conditions - can't tell anyone, can't tell him you're his father, etc.) by saying he went to visit him in CC. However, they didn't really think about what that meant for the other relationships in Oliver's life - with his fiancee and his sister - so they decided to throw in the line that he thought he should have noticed what was going on with Thea but he's been running back and forth to CC. 

[Chaser]

I find the belief that Oliver never really loved Felicity baffling. The issues that I've had with Oliver's actions I chalk up to TV cliché and plot needs.

[lemotomato]

7 minutes ago, HighHopes said:

I used to believe that Oliver loved Felicity, but his actions have proved otherwise IMO. Oliver is a lot of talk and not a lot of action. When he says "for better or worse" but then actively fails to be around and be there for "the worse" those words do not matter. 

He was there for "the worse". Throwaway line about CC aside, what we saw onscreen from 411-415 was him being there for Felicity. Then she found out he lied to her and rightfully dumped him. Then she spent the next 9 months choosing not to tell him about what she was going through ("Oliver and I don't have that kind of relationship anymore" she told Curtis when he asked her about talking to Oliver about Havenrock), dating someone else, appearing to be fine with Oliver dating someone else (teasing him about reporter being his girlfriend), and flat out telling him that no, she wasn't keeping the door open for them to get back together. She was fine with supporting him regarding Team Arrow stuff, but she kept him out of her personal life.

From what we've seen this season, Felicity shut everyone out, not just Oliver. (She dated someone that she could share nothing about her life with, and didn't tell any of her friends about him, so that should be an indication of where she's been emotionally.) So I don't understand why him not comforting her after killing Billy proves he never loved her. I'm not defending Oliver going to the reporter of all people for comfort (because it's incredibly stupid), but from their interaction in 5A, I wouldn't blame Oliver for thinking that he's the very last person Felicity would want to be around her. 

[statsgirl]

26 minutes ago, HighHopes said:

Just because you ask someone to marry you doesn't necessarily mean you want to go through with it. 

It doesn't mean you will actually go through with it but presumably when you ask someone to marry  you, you want to go through with it at that point (or else you're in big trouble).

I don't think it was too soon, they had known each other for four years by then (my husband proposed 6 months after we met) and had been living together for 8 months.  The fact that Oliver had already written his wedding vows pretty much points to the fact that  yes, he really did want to marry Felicity.

22 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

they wanted to show that Oliver was trying to be a good father to William (despite Samantha's ridiculous conditions

So I guess that's why he sent William away at the end, because he wanted to be a good father to him?  Too bad he didn't talk it over with the one person who had grown up without her father around.

The whole storyline was such a mess and very poorly written.  I wonder if someone other than MG or WM pushed for it.  Maybe AK who promised the Samantha actress that she would have a real storyline on the show later on?

[statsgirl]

5 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

From what we've seen this season, Felicity shut everyone out, not just Oliver. (She dated someone that she could share nothing about her life with, and didn't tell any of her friends about him, so that should be an indication of where she's been emotionally.) So I don't understand why him not comforting her after killing Billy proves he never loved her. I'm not defending Oliver going to the reporter of all people for comfort (because it's incredibly stupid), but from their interaction in 5A, I wouldn't blame Oliver for thinking that he's the very last person Felicity would want to be around her. 

The problem for me is not that he didn't comfort her but that no one did.  As you said, she shut everyone out all season.  Yes, Diggle had  his own problems but by the end of it, he was spending a lot of time in the bunker since he couldn't go to his own place.  Didn't he notice that Felicity was shutting them all out? Was Thea so busy with Quentin and propping Oliver as mayor that she didn't notice Felicity was suffering? Or her BFF Curtis who  presumably spent most of his time with her now that he's unemployed? Didn't they notice the past months that she's emotionally shut off?  How about Rory, who just lost everyone at Havenrock, didn't he empathize when Billy died?

There have been a number of fanfic "fixes" of that scene, from Oliver going to Thea and asking her to check on Felicity, to Thea and Rory showing up at her place with mint chip ice cream, to Oliver climbing up to the balcony and watching her from outside to make sure she's okay.  But none of that happened in the show.

[calliope1975]

I've shipped way more trash couples than Olicity. LOL.

I've never doubted Oliver's love for Felicity and do believe SA sold that she's Oliver's always. But bad plotting and hack writing have gotten in the way of a really lovely love story. I just hope we can find our way  back to that or it's AU/head canon galore from now on out. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

I remember a scene in season 2 where Laurel was drinking at a party and stopped Oliver before he could ask her how she was doing telling him she is sick of people asking her that and he asks anyway. That's the kind of behavior I would have liked to see from the team towards Felicity because it's normal that if you care about someone you worry. This year is like they are avoiding scenes that aren't for the plot or "x punches y".

[lemotomato]

5 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

But none of that happened in the show.

None of that happened on the show because the show wanted to end with a OQ voiceover montage of all the people he hurt, set up the Oliver/reporter romance for the next couple episodes, and squeeze in the gotcha cliffhanger scene. Or given that Felicity

Spoiler

is going to go after Prometheus on her own, maybe the show wanted to emphasize her suffering alone and that's why she resorts to doing whatever questionable things she's going to do.

[AyChihuahua]

6 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I remember a scene in season 2 where Laurel was drinking at a party and stopped Oliver before he could ask her how she was doing telling him she is sick of people asking her that and he asks anyway. That's the kind of behavior I would have liked to see from the team towards Felicity because it's normal that if you care about someone you worry. This year is like they are avoiding scenes that aren't for the plot or "x punches y".

That is a great point. That's also nowhere near the only time in S2 he tried to get Laurel to open up to him about her issues and she shut him down. So yeah, it's all plotty-plot/noromo for why he's not doing that with Felicity, but in-show, it comes across that he can't make these various efforts with Felicity that he's made with others.

Ugh.

Edited January 18, 2017 by AyChihuahua

[Midnight Lullaby]

About Oliver and Felicity from my POV they went from a story that was special to something ordinary. I thought Oliver loved Felicity more than what I saw after the break up. He didn't apologize, is never there for her and is happily building something with someone else. To overcome last year's mess and still ship them I needed something more but as it is I don't see anything that makes me say that she should take a leap of faith and trust him again. I could say that if he apologized or showed how deeply he cares for her.

[statsgirl]

I think they wanted to go back to basics with Playboy Oliver (for the dudebros) and to justify that, they think they have to show him not caring about Felicity.  I think they could have done it better with "Oliver still loves Felicity but can't be with her so he loves the one he's with in a series of meaningless ONSs".  Certainly getting over Felicity and falling for Susan doesn't endear him to me one iota.

16 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

None of that happened on the show because the show wanted to end with a OQ voiceover montage of all the people he hurt, set up the Oliver/reporter romance for the next couple episodes, and squeeze in the gotcha cliffhanger scene.

They still could have had that effect by having Felicity refuse Thea or Rory's comfort, closing the door on them and crying alone.  That's why I think it's like Roy-in-a-puddle,  they were going for an effect but left out something important and didn't realize how gross it was going to come over on screen.

[Angel12d]

16 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

and is happily building something with someone else. 

Is he though? I've never seen him smile or be as happy as he was with Felicity. I know they're supposed to be building to genuine feelings or whatever but I still don't buy it. It feels so half-hearted to me. Like going through the motions. IDK.

[Midnight Lullaby]

3 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Is he though? I've never seen him smile or be as happy as he was with Felicity. I know they're supposed to be building to genuine feelings or whatever but I still don't buy it. It feels so half-hearted to me. Like going through the motions. IDK.

I don't see heart eyes but I don't see unhappiness to be with her either. He doesn't seem to have issues moving on with her.

[wonderwall]

Apparently Oliver doesn't love Felicity and never has? Well I'll keep that in mind when they get back together this season or maybe even the next. 

[dtissagirl]

38 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I've shipped way more trash couples than Olicity. LOL.

You know, I had never thought about it, but I'm pretty sure O/F is the healthier -- if not the ONLY healthy -- couple I've ever shipped. Like, I'm mentally listing my faves and... so much more fucked up and problematic pairings, holy cow I only 'ship trash.

[wonderwall]

4 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I don't see heart eyes but I don't see unhappiness to be with her either. He doesn't seem to have issues moving on with her.

Oliver was happy with Felicity vs. Oliver isn't unhappy with Susan. 

If felicity gave him a sign that maybe the door isn't shut, he'd choose felicity no question. Why? Because he may not be unhappy with Susan but his life was better with Felicity. 

Not being unhappy with someone is legit describing someone who's biding their time. I don't see this as Oliver building a life with Susan just because he's not unhappy with her... Plus she's shady as fuck so we know that's not gonna last. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

I'd bet they are getting back together but I also don't understand the annoyance if not everyone sees things in the same way. 

[tangerine95]

I never had an impression that Oliver didn't love Felicity or she didn't love him.But it's a plot driven show that sometimes will ignore relationships or character development so I can see why people would think that.I remember there was a lot of similar talk going around in season 3 where a lot of people thought Felicity didn't really love Oliver in season 3 as much as he loved her.

 Imo they could have solved a lot of this if they actually gave a POV to both Oliver and Felicity this season. The most we got from Oliver was that he thought they might get back together before he found out about the bf and the most we got from Felicity was saying that her and Oliver don't have the kind of relationship where they talk about issues that don't concern the team.Which is ridiculous imo for a huge relationship to get so little explanation after a break up they made such a big deal about. If they want to do the whole separate journey for each of them thing and trying to move on like plenty of shows have done they needed to actually voice that.I don't really count 5.05 because it barely did anything other than say they'll move on but didn't get into it much deeper.

I don't see Oliver as falling for Susan or being happy with her. I doubt that he would have even looked at her if he had any hope that Felicity was willing to give him a chance again and he only decided to get involved with her after he lost all hope for that.My issue with Susan is that it makes him look gross because of how she treated Thea and dumb because she's literally an obviously shady reporter. 

[lemotomato]

11 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I don't see heart eyes but I don't see unhappiness to be with her either. He doesn't seem to have issues moving on with her.

Other than the utter stupidity of moving on with a shady reporter, so what if he is? Felicity told him in no uncertain terms several times that she doesn't want a romantic relationship with him. They've been broken up for 9 months.  Him going back to the dating pool doesn't mean he never loved Felicity, just like Felicity dating Billy doesn't mean she never loved Oliver.

[Midnight Lullaby]

3 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

Oliver was happy with Felicity vs. Oliver isn't unhappy with Susan. 

If felicity gave him a sign that maybe the door isn't shut, he'd choose felicity no question. Why? Because he may not be unhappy with Susan but his life was better with Felicity. 

Not being unhappy with someone is legit describing someone who's biding their time. I don't see this as Oliver building a life with Susan just because he's not unhappy with her... Plus she's shady as fuck so we know that's not gonna last. 

And what if Felicity doesn't say anything because she respects that he is with someone else? Is he going to be with Susan forever? I look at them and I see two normal people dating. He looked happier last year but seems fine with how the situation is right now so maybe that's enough for him. We know she is shady so the relationship is ending but that's another matter. I thought, from the way I saw Oliver last year and the year before, that he wasn't going to start another relationship and have no problems opening up like he is doing at the first try. It was my mistake.

[Starfish35]

Quote

I remember there was a lot of similar talk going around in season 3 where a lot of people thought Felicity didn't really love Oliver in season 3 as much as he loved her.

I remember that too, now that you mention it.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Just now, lemotomato said:

Other than the utter stupidity of moving on with a shady reporter, so what if he is? Felicity told him in no uncertain terms several times that she doesn't want a romantic relationship with him. They've been broken up for 9 months.  Him going back to the dating pool doesn't mean he never loved Felicity, just like Felicity dating Billy doesn't mean she never loved Oliver.

I didn't say he never loved Felicity..I said that I thought he loved her so much he wasn't going to be able to start over with someone new and have no difficulties opening up like I'm seeing right away. It was my mistake, but that was what I thought after watching his behavior in S3 and 4. 

[statsgirl]

18 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

I don't see this as Oliver building a life with Susan just because he's not unhappy with her... Plus she's shady as fuck so we know that's not gonna last. 

We see that she's shady.  If Oliver didn't see it, then he still had Thea and Quentin to tell him.

So my question is, why pick her to have a relationship with? To be the person he goes to when he's feeling bad?  Why not just go for a bunch of meaningless dates with the many women who want to date Mayor Handsome?

He may not be building a life with her but he did pick her as the woman he wants to have a relationship with now

6 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I didn't say he never loved Felicity..I said that I thought he loved her so much he wasn't going to be able to start over with someone new and have no difficulties opening up like I'm seeing right away. It was my mistake, but that was what I thought after watching his behavior in S3 and 4. 

Exactly.  Either he loved Felicity so much a mere two months earlier that he isn't ready to start another relationship with someone else so soon, or she says 'no' and he's ready to start over with the next woman who stalks him, even if she is shady..

Edited January 18, 2017 by statsgirl

[Angel12d]

21 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I don't see heart eyes but I don't see unhappiness to be with her either. He doesn't seem to have issues moving on with her.

I mean, I don't want either of them to date other people. I detested it when Felicity was with Mayo and still hate that whole thing with the fire of a thousand suns. I can't stand Susan either and I just don't get the connection there. At all. I also hate how dumb it makes Oliver look. He's a moron to go there with her, of all people.

And I know one of the only reasons they gave Felicity a new love interest was so it was okay for Oliver to move on. I get what they were doing and I hate it. But it doesn't remove the fact that it has been months since Olicity were together and that Oliver is only moving on because he found out Felicity was trying to do the same. Until that point, I believe he still had hope. 

So I really don't see him as happily moving on tbh. If he had started dating first in 501, I'd totally agree with you. But he waited until all doors were closed and even now I just don't see it as something he truly wants. Maybe the next few episodes will show something different? IDK.

[insomniadreams88]

4 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

And what if Felicity doesn't say anything because she respects that he is with someone else? Is he going to be with Susan forever? I look at them and I see two normal people dating. He looked happier last year but seems fine with how the situation is right now so maybe that's enough for him. 

That's the thing - has Felicity seen anything from Oliver that suggests that he still wants to be with her? The audience saw in 501 when Oliver was talking to Diggle and saying he didn't know about their relationship, but what has Felicity seen? He asked her if she was keeping the door open in 505 (but never said anything to suggest the door was open for him) and then said he had to see about moving on too. 

I can see the show getting some mileage out of Felicity wanting to get back together with Oliver but not thinking he wants to be with her anymore. 

9 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

My issue with Susan is that it makes him look gross because of how she treated Thea and dumb because she's literally an obviously shady reporter. 

Exactly. It has nothing to do with Olicity. I'd feel the same about Susan if Oliver/Felicity were never together or even if Susan was just his friend like she told him he needed. He shouldn't be talking to her at all outside of in a professional capacity. That has everything to do with his relationship with Thea as his sister - and with Thea as his Chief of Staff. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

4 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I mean, I don't want either of them to date other people. I detested it when Felicity was with Mayo and still hate that whole thing with the fire of a thousand suns. I can't stand Susan either and I just don't get the connection there. At all. I also hate how dumb it makes Oliver look. He's a moron to go there with her, of all people.

And I know one of the only reasons they gave Felicity a new love interest was so it was okay for Oliver to move on. I get what they were doing and I hate it. But it doesn't remove the fact that it has been months since Olicity were together and that Oliver is only moving on because he found out Felicity was trying to do the same. Until that point, I believe he still had hope. 

So I really don't see him as happily moving on tbh. If he had started dating first in 501, I'd totally agree with you. But he waited until all doors were closed and even now I just don't see it as something he truly wants. Maybe the next few episodes will show something different? IDK.

I feel like I didn't explain myself but I don't know how to do it better, LOL.

What I said about "happily moving on" wasn't about the choice of starting a new relationship, that he might haven't taken if Felicity wasn't dating Mayo, but about him not struggling to be with someone else. There's no moment where I saw him missing what he used to have or feeling he couldn't go to Susan to talk or other signs that he is with her but he really wants to be with Felicity. I didn't think the Oliver I saw in the last two years could move on so easily to someone new without problems. I guess I expected him struggling a bit or something else but I didn't see it.

[ComicFan777]

One of the things that I liked about OTA was that even when Oliver shut people out, Diggle and Felicity always prompted him to open up whether he wanted to or not.  They never gave up encouraging him to open up.

I wish that we could see Oliver and Diggle do the same for Felicity.  It's a given that people prompt Oliver to open up because he needs it.  However, with Felicity, it sounds like everything is on her, and that everyone expects her to always verbalize when she needs support or a hug or she has to be the one who prompts herself to open up.  Why is it so different for Felicity?  I think real friends are there for support whether you ask for it or not.  Sometimes you don't realize you need the support until your friend makes you realize you need help.  I hope Felicity gets the support she needs, whether she asks for it or not, just as she has done for them. 

[lemotomato]

1 minute ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I guess I expected him struggling a bit or something else but I didn't see it.

Does his several protests of "She's not my girlfriend" whenever people brought up the reporter count?

[Midnight Lullaby]

1 minute ago, lemotomato said:

Does his several protests of "She's not my girlfriend" whenever people brought up the reporter count?

How is that a struggle to settle in a relationship with someone? They weren't even dating at that point.

[tangerine95]

I think that the reason we didn't see either of them show much struggle or really emotion at all at dating other people and trying to move on is simply because the EPs decided that the way to avoid the relationship drama they got criticized about last season is to just avoid those character beats all together. They didn't get that the criticism was mostly about contrived drama and ignoring that Oliver and Felicity were ready to be married last season is as contrived as BM drama was.

Edited January 18, 2017 by tangerine95