Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[dtissagirl]

4 minutes ago, rtalive said:

She also could have helped the team from her home and turn it into her office.

That makes no sense. At the time she was paralyzed she was the CEO of a billionaire company, why would she turn her home into her office? She had an office. And why would she stop going to the lair to help the team? Going OUT of the house to do stuff is actually super really important to someone who's lost mobility.

[AyChihuahua]

11 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

You are right of course.  It comes down to laziness IMO.  Coming up with a legitimate reason for Oliver to lie to Felicity and for them then to break up at that stage in their relationship after all they'd already been through and came through would have been very hard.  Which is why they didn't try, IMO.  

They should have had Moira threaten Baby Mama in the S2 flashback instead of paying her off. Then her desire to stay the hell away from the whole Queen family would have made sense and she wouldn't have been a nasty lying gold-digging hag. If she's not awful and her reasoning makes some sense, then he'd be at least less awful in respecting her relatively valid wishes. (Sure she'd have no reason to continue fearing Moira at that point, but something like having your life/your unborn child's life threatened would stick with you and make her legitimately fearful of the whole Queen clan.) Plus Susanna would have killed that scene: "Bad things happen to friendless young women in Starling City, Samantha dear. I'd hate for anything to happen to you or your baby."

Oh, and they absolutely should not have had Baby Mama be Laurel's friend. That was an idiotic thing to do and made Baby Mama EVEN NASTIER. It added nothing to the narrative, bc if it was about making LL look saintly, she could have hugged/forgiven BM even if she'd been a stranger who had banged LL's boyfriend.

AND they should not have had Malcolm tell Oliver he knew. The plot absolutely did not require Oliver to know MM knew. Cut that bit and still have MM go to Darhk at the end of the episode and Oliver doesn't look like he's in the middle of a psychotic break in which he only remembers he has a kid when he finds himself in Central City. (And cut out the visits to the dumb kid, and make the kid not a Crayola-eating moron, omg worst storyline EVER.)

Edited December 19, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[kismet]

59 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I agree that the problem seems to be Berlanti's lack of time for the shows. (Blindspot is now getting a spin-off.)  Berlanti seems to be the only one with enough common sense to blend plot with character.  I had hopes for Wendy Mericle coming on as a co-showrunner and while s4 was better until the stupidity of the BMD, the show has pretty much been a mess plot-wise since 415.  Maybe she doesn't get it or maybe she doesn't have the clout.

I really think people overestimate her. Personally I never really enjoyed her episodes or never really remembered them as good to the characters, especially the females. I believe because she is a female, people think she will be able to bring the female perspective or be more about the characters over plot - but I believe these ideas are inaccurate. Nothing in her resume or episodes would indicate that she writes for females better or characters over plot. BMD was in her episodes and I'm more inclined to believe she wanted it to be big & melodramatic. 

At the end of the day, I believe she gives better interviews than MG. She seems more diplomatic & less passive-aggressive. But I don't think what she brings as a show runner or writer is making Arrow better. Since her promotion the show has gone down IMO. She might have balanced out MGs epic game changer plot swings but now there is just a lot of poorly written sludge to wade through.

31 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

I think Arrow has always prioritized plot over character, even during Season 1. But because the characters were so new, it wasn't a problem, or at least an obvious problem. 5 seasons later, viewers have enough understanding of the characters so when they do something off it's a bit more jarring. Now, I wonder if Plot over Character would have worked better for Arrow if they decided to keep it a Villain of the Week type of show instead of going with a more serialized style of storytelling. 

I'm beginning to wonder the same thing. I'm not sure this crew is up for a serialized storytelling.

[rtalive]

20 hours ago, dtissagirl said:

That makes no sense. At the time she was paralyzed she was the CEO of a billionaire company, why would she turn her home into her office? She had an office. And why would she stop going to the lair to help the team? Going OUT of the house to do stuff is actually super really important to someone who's lost mobility.

Ok, didn't want to anger you. Just made a suggestion. I know little about the problems and the difficulties people on a wheel chair deal with on their every day. What I know is they need someone to help them get in a car and out of a car, and it takes more time to go to places. This is an interesting blog of a person describing a day on a wheelchair http://www.lifeofanarchitect.com/my-day-in-a-wheelchair/. 

[dtissagirl]

27 minutes ago, rtalive said:

Ok, didn't want to anger you. Just made a suggestion. I know little about the problems and the difficulties people on a wheel chair deal with on their every day. What I know is they need someone to help them get in a car and out of a car, and it takes more time to go to places. This is an interesting blog of a person describing a day on a wheelchair http://www.lifeofanarchitect.com/my-day-in-a-wheelchair/. 

You didn't anger me. Your suggestion makes no sense within what the narrative of the show portrayed of Felicity's paralysis. She kept going to work at Palmer Tech and she kept going into the Arrow bunker in the wheelchair. The show never portrayed her mobility impairment as something that forced her to be secluded at home. Why would she stop going to work and to the bunker to stay home isolated from places she had no problem going into? What would be the point?

[Chaser]

I've finished a S1 rewatch and the must predominate thought coming out of the marathon was unexpected. I've always liked Tommy and felt he deserved better, but I didn't appreciate his character enough. He started the season a douchecanoe but completely transformed. A lot of that I thought was due to his relationship with Laurel. He went from a playboy to a loving, supportive boyfriend. An aimless heir to a responsible, hardworking adult. A lot of that was because of her. Hell, even when he broke up with her he tried to put it all on him at first instead of getting angry at her for all the Oliver stuff.  

You know basically enjoyed Tommy in all of his interactions. The decline of his relationship with Oliver. The build up of his relationship with his father. That one really shocked me because I'm at the point were I hate hate Malcom and think JB is overrated in the role, but the scenes with JB and CD were really good. I actually thought Malcolm cared about Tommy in that first season. Finishing the season, Tommy's death made me so sad. CD just killed it as Tommy. I wish so much they had killed Laurel/Malcolm at the end of the season and kept Tommy. I could totally see him developing into a Prometheus type character. Oliver could even be the one who trained him. 

Going back to his relationship with Laurel, but focusing on Laurel. I know a lot in fandom believe that Laurel was at her best with Tommy but I have to disagree. I think its more so that KC was better in scenes with CD because Laurel was not better with Tommy. Some of Laurel worst moments were in that relationship. The way she acted when Tommy organized the fundraiser, immediately assuming Oliver's response to her and Tommy seeing each other was all about her, her behavior at the dinner with Helena and Oliver, berating Tommy for not focusing on her when her mom came to town (ignoring the fact that Tommy had witnessed his father being shot in the previous episode). That's not even mentioning the complete 180 she did the moment she found out Oliver still had feelings for her. "I love Tommy, I love Tommy, I love Tommy....wait you like me??? Let's bang and not spend another thought on Tommy until he saves my life." Seriously you add the S4 retcon and it gets worse.

[statsgirl]

I think one of the reasons I supported Tommy/Laurel is because he really didn't have anyone else who cared about him.  Malcolm was a sociopath who cut off Tommy's trust funds to force him to do what he wanted, and Oliver was completely self-centred season 1.  Laurel may have occasionally humiliated him (the dinner with Oliver and Helena) and misjudged him, but when she thought Oliver didn't care about her, she listened to and cared for Tommy.  As you point out, she was important in his maturity arc.

[kismet]

@Chaser totally agree with you. I think I always appreciated TM's character, in fact he was always one of my favorites. His death was hard to take, but I thought it made the series bold. Little did I know it was just one of their writing crutches to kill off people. TM's death served a purpose, which the show has forgotten. Considering the direction the show has since taken, I think OQ needs friends and moving fwd perhaps the show would have been better keeping him alive. Then again, his death was so pivotal that I don't think it would have had the same resonance if they had killed another person in s1. I love Tommy, but I understand why he was chosen to go first. And I don't believe that I would have enjoyed EVIL Tommy, so if his death kept him from going down the EVIL path I'm content with it.

Tommy definitely deserved better. I do think that CD brought out better scenes with KC therefore making LL seem better in those moments. She seemed more multi-dimensional and emoted more, similar to when she shared scenes with PB. However as a character, LL was not better with TM. I do think audiences tend to want happy endings and TM/LL seemed happy a lot of the times. Perhaps not a good couple, but if given time and better writing perhaps they could get a better ending which is why I think they are perceived in memoriam as a happy couple and are portrayed in fan fics. I also think TM dying to save LL definitely upped his hero status and the relationship. Nobody wants to think that somebody died saving someone they loved only to be seen by that other person as sub-par. Well, except maybe the Arrowwriters room because the s4 retcon which destroyed LL's character also took down what the happy memories of LL/TM's relationship. I mean seriously, whose idea was that flashback retcon????

I understand it supposed to mean that LL never moved on from OQ. But did they have to take TM mangled memory and throw him under the bus again?? If it was to make her look better- it failed. If it was supposed to make me wish for LL/OQ the reunion/remix - it failed. If it was supposed to tarnish LL/TM relationship - mission accomplished. I still miss Tommy's presence on the show, but the one thing I learned after s4, is I was so happy CD was able to get far far away from the writing crapfest Arrow has become and find good roles on other successful TV shows.

[Carrie Ann]

Moving non-spoilery O/F comment from the spoiler thread:

I totally get if Oliver in S4 killed O/F as a ship for anyone, because 408/410/415 were just horrible, IMO. If you made it through that, through the end of last season still shipping them, but now hate Oliver (and, therefore, the ship), that's confusing to me. To me, he's just been following Felicity's lead since the end of 416.

We have no idea what their friendship looked like over the summer. We do know that Oliver was not entirely sure about what the future held for them romantically as of 501. And they seemed like close friends at the beginning of the season, but then Felicity also told Curtis that she and Oliver don't talk to each other about certain things anymore. So it seems like they'd re-set some boundaries (likely unspoken). And at some unknown point in the summer, she'd begun to date Billy, felt serious enough--or at least comfortable enough--with him that she gave him a key to her apartment, but still did not tell Oliver for months. Who knows when or if she would have, but she showed no inclination until forced by a third party. At which point, she had a very understandable and kind-hearted reasoning to offer--that she chickened out, that she wasn't sure about it and didn't really want to tell him until she was--but that doesn't change that she was keeping something pretty big a secret from him. That's not a moral judgment, just pointing out that she did something that effectively kept Oliver at arm's length, in terms of intimacy, even as a friend--both by dating someone else and by keeping it secret. In my opinion, it showed her wanting to be in control of how they related to each other and the distance between them, which is again understandable.

Then after Oliver took it in, he suggested she figure out whether it was real with Billy, and said that (following her lead) he would see what was next, too. (She didn't seem to succeed in figuring out whether it was real, and by the time Billy died, she was no more comfortable considering him her boyfriend than she had been weeks earlier. That Oliver did go ahead with pursuing something (rather lazily) with Susan isn't a sin against Felicity, I don't think?)

From that point in 505, they were both basically emotionally blank around each other. Felicity made jokes about his "girlfriend," and beyond that, they communicated only about "business" matters until Oliver killed Billy and they had that sad scene. And then Oliver didn't go to her apartment afterward to offer comfort, understandably, IMO. (In my view, that would have looked like/been perceived as him actually wanting to receive comfort/be absolved, but who can say.) Instead he went to the apartment of the woman he is now seeing--a person who was outside of his circle enough that he doesn't yet feel like he's ruined her life, which is how he felt about everyone else around him at that moment, which is probably why he didn't want to be around any of them.

So, I guess my question for people who find themselves at the end of their rope w/r/t Oliver/Olicity right now, is: is that the straw that broke the camel's back? That he talked to Susan? Because to me, I didn't want to see it--and I continue to think that him trusting Susan on any level is very dumb--but I understand what the writers were going for (which is not the same thing as saying I agree with their terrible, stupid approach to this season). And in general, I really haven't found anything Oliver has done TO Felicity to be upsetting this season. Just disappointing because I want to see more, but I'm disappointed by her w/r/t him too, by which I really mean that I'm frustrated by the writers refusing to tell an O/F story at all.

[tangerine95]

Olicity isn't ruined for me, I don't think anything they've done to each other is unforgivable or has crossed the line, at least not yet. I'm not enjoying them this season because of direction the writers chose because they just went with contrived ways of avoiding drama and in turn made both characters seem emotionless a lot of the times. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

To me that I don't see him caring about her, not even as a friend, after a lot has happened to her. I don't care if he sleeps with someone else but if he can't be there for Felicity when they are not together then I don't even see why she should want to give him another chance. I would probably have excused it and waited for better times if all the awfulness of last year never happened but it did. After last year I wanted to give them a chance to fix that mess and remind me why I loved the couple and Oliver. It didn't happen so I gave up.

[statsgirl]

I haven't given up on Olicity but the writing this season has soured it for me (as the Adlerians say, spitting in my soup) so even if they get back together, I won't enjoy it as much as I did before.  I find the bad writing to keep OTP couples apart does that a lot to me.

It feels like even though Felicity was the one to walk away from the engagement, she's been there for Oliver for whatever he needed whereas ever since Oliver found out she's dating someone else, he hasn't been there for her at all.  It's like she's some stranger he happens to work with.

And then there's the fact that he's done nothing about the reasons she left him, the secrets and excluding her from decisions he initates.  Even if she does get jealous seeing him with Susan, there's still no reason to get back together.

The ending of the last episode was just the icing on the bad cake.  I can understand the fanwank that maybe Felicity didn't want him as she cried over Billy but on screen Oliver did nothing to make  sure she was okay.  It was all about his feelings, his pain, his suffering and that kind of self-centeredness is abhorrent to me..  Sure, maybe there was a scene where he asked her if she was okay and did she need anything, but as the old TWoP rule goes, if it didn't happen on screen, it didn't happen.

[insomniadreams88]

17 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

It feels like even though Felicity was the one to walk away from the engagement, she's been there for Oliver for whatever he needed whereas ever since Oliver found out she's dating someone else, he hasn't been there for her at all.  It's like she's some stranger he happens to work with.

And what bothers me about this is it's almost like the show is saying that Oliver will only be there for Felicity if he thinks they're going to get back together. So if a relationship is off the table, does that mean he doesn't care if they're friends? 

Something else that bothers me is that Oliver and Felicity had all summer to talk about things like Havenrock. We had, what, one moment of him asking her about it only for it to be brushed aside? (And that was before he knew about Billy.) There could have easily been a line from Oliver to Diggle during that video chat in 501 that he's tried to talk to her, but she won't talk to him. Or something. Felicity has said they don't have that kind of relationship anymore, but have we seen Oliver say that to anyone? Not that I can remember. He asked Felicity to talk to Rory, but he hasn't asked anyone to talk to Felicity, has he? He could have done that if he felt he was the wrong person for the job. 

I also think the ending of 509 wouldn't have hurt so much if we saw Oliver outside the loft before going to Susan's. If he jumped up on the balcony or stood outside the door and then decided to not go in and left. 

ETA: 509 also could have been fixed with Oliver texting Diggle to check on Felicity - hey, remember that friendship? Yeah, the show doesn't either - and then Diggle being distracted because he got the call that led to his arrest.

Edited January 5, 2017 by insomniadreams88

[Hiveminder]

I'm pretty much in the same space as you Carrie Ann re: Olicity. I think Oliver's really dumb to trust Susan, but I'm not mad at him for that or his recent behavior towards Felicity.

Honestly, nothing about Oliver trusting and opening up to Susan is surprising. For all his problems, Oliver's always been written as strangely naive and trusting of people he really shouldn't trust. He's a terrible judge of character. 

[Trini]

50 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Olicity isn't ruined for me, I don't think anything they've done to each other is unforgivable or has crossed the line, at least not yet. I'm not enjoying them this season because of direction the writers chose because they just went with contrived ways of avoiding drama and in turn made both characters seem emotionless a lot of the times. 

It's TV, so they can get back together eventually; but him killing her boyfriend (I know, not on purpose) seems like something that would take a while to get over. So if they reunite, it's not going to be soon, I think. End of this season? Next season??

[dtissagirl]

For me it was nothing specifc Oliver did. The noromo vibe of the season puts me off Oliver, because I don't like noromo!Oliver. It really is that simple -- there's nothing deeper than that in it for me. 

I don't 'ship in terms of what's best for the characters, or what they deserve, or if there's a line the characters can't cross. I don't care about any of that. I 'ship in terms of what's best for me. The social function of 'shippable fictional people is to please me. O/F being into each other entertains me a whole lot, so I want them to be 'shippy. Noromo!Oliver grates me. He's making this season unwatchable for me. [Which is why I haven't been watching.] I do cop out to liking noromo!Felicity because I like her outside of her being in love with Oliver. He's the one that doesn't work for me outside of the 'ship.

[lemotomato]

4 minutes ago, Trini said:

It's TV, so they can get back together eventually; but him killing her boyfriend (I know, not on purpose) seems like something that would take a while to get over. So if they reunite, it's not going to be soon, I think. End of this season? Next season??

In season 3, Oliver made Felicity think that he left her and their friends locked in a cell to die from exposure to a bioweapon, and they drove off into the sunset in the very next episode without him ever apologizing. So they will get over it whenever the writers decide they'll get over it.

[GirlvsTV]

For me, giving up on Olicity has everything to do how gross I find Oliver now. This intense dislike for him has been building since 4b and the end of 5x09 was just the last straw. I was really upset with his character in 4b, but I would've lived with it if he had learned anything at all from his terrible decisions. I thought maybe we'd get there in s5, instead he's regressed even more (killing again), has continued to make dumb choices and when given the opportunity, also chose to keep stuff from Felicity again. 

This is hard to describe, but I also find him weirdly robotic/emotionless this season. It's probably a by-product of the plot motivated writing, as most of the show's characters have stopped feeling like well drawn people and seem more like chess pieces to be moved from a to b. This may also be because I can't connect or feel anything but intense irritation towards him anymore.

I also get that lots of stuff could of happened off-screen to explain away why Oliver, or anyone else, was not with Felicity after Det. Boyfriend died. However, what they chose to show viewers was Oliver getting his smooch on while she was alone and crying (and Dig was in prison!) right after he had mistakenly killed an innocent man. If I didn't know better (that the writers are super lazy/dumb) I'd think they were trying to ruin his character on purpose. 

[LeighAn]

I think the issue is that the writers don't think or can't see the emotional distance between Oliver and Felicity. In their minds they had Oliver open up to her about a time he doesn't open up to anybody about (Russia) and they had him say that he wants her to be happy and give his blessing to explore a real relationship. They had him say he will always care about her and they are a mortal lock (a sure thing). They had him promise to bring Billy home to her and then had him apologise for killing Billy and hurting her.

Do I think Oliver has done enough to reach out to Felicity in the same way she has stood by him? No

But I do think the writers think they've done enough to show Oliver cares for Felicity? Kind of. 

Im still holding out hope that we will see Oliver be there for Felicity in an emotionally meaningful way in 5B because otherwise why have Felicity go down a "dark path" if not to have Oliver pull her out of it. 

Edited January 5, 2017 by LeighAn

[tangerine95]

4 minutes ago, Trini said:

It's TV, so they can get back together eventually; but him killing her boyfriend (I know, not on purpose) seems like something that would take a while to get over. So if they reunite, it's not going to be soon, I think. End of this season? Next season??

Idk when they'll reunite but I don't think Oliver killing the bf will be an issue that will stall them. They made it clear that Felicity isn't angry at Oliver and doesn't blame him at all.She seems to put all the blame on Prometheus so I don't see that being an obstacle for olicity. Logically it would be something that she would need time to get over but this is arrow lol

[Angel12d]

1 hour ago, Carrie Ann said:

by which I really mean that I'm frustrated by the writers refusing to tell an O/F story at all.

This is basically me. I've never liked the idea of them having new love interests - big mistake, IMO - and I do think Oliver is a moron for trusting Susan, especially after what she did to Thea (same way I think Felicity was dumb to date a cop). But I don't think Olicity is ruined and if the show goes there again, I'm pretty sure I'll still ship it. Probably not as much as I once did because the writing has taken the shine off. But I do think O/F are better together tbh.

I'm just annoyed/frustrated with how they're basically not writing for them at all and ignoring how close they once were (to the point where I do agree that it looks like they don't even care about each other anymore, even though logically I know they're only doing that to help sell the new love interests). But a few crumbs and a flashback scene hinting at a proposal isn't enough for me after everything O/F have been through.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Angel12d

[LeighAn]

I wanted to be on the optimistic Olicity reunion for Feb sweeps but I'm calling season finale. I'm still 85-90% confident Olicity will be together going into season 6.

[tangerine95]

6 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

For me it was nothing specifc Oliver did. The noromo vibe of the season puts me off Oliver, because I don't like noromo!Oliver. It really is that simple -- there's nothing deeper than that in it for me. 

I don't 'ship in terms of what's best for the characters, or what they deserve, or if there's a line the characters can't cross. I don't care about any of that. I 'ship in terms of what's best for me. The social function of 'shippable fictional people is to please me. O/F being into each other entertains me a whole lot, so I want them to be 'shippy. Noromo!Oliver grates me. He's making this season unwatchable for me. [Which is why I haven't been watching.] I do cop out to liking noromo!Felicity because I like her outside of her being in love with Oliver. He's the one that doesn't work for me outside of the 'ship.

Yeah for me it's not ruining Olicity as much as Oliver on his own. I'm just bored with him rn because he's acting emotionless so much of the time. Not even just with Felicity tho that's the most jarring but I think he's like that with all the people he's supposed to care about like Thea, Digg or Lance. In previous seasons even when he was being dumb for plot, his interactions with Felicity, Digg and most of the time Thea made him likable for me and so I could ignore a lot of the stupidity of the plot. This season it's hard for ne to find simpathy for him and care about his story. 

[Trini]

4 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

In season 3, Oliver made Felicity think that he left her and their friends locked in a cell to die from exposure to a bioweapon, and they drove off into the sunset in the very next episode without him ever apologizing. So they will get over it whenever the writers decide they'll get over it.

This show.

I was actually trying to think of the worst things that had happened between them, and had forgotten about that bit. However, the Flash showed up and saved them - at Oliver's request - so I think she had some idea that he wasn't totally gone.

I agree with you, though. But this other love interest for Oliver is another thing I think will delay the reunion.

[dtissagirl]

Yup yup yup. If it turns out they replaced Oliver with a constipated robot, I'll believe it.

[calliope1975]

I've skipped a bunch of episodes so this opinion isn't backed up by the entire season, but SA seems to have regressed a bit as an actor, too. That, plus Oliver's boneheaded decisions and treatment of others this year just isn't making him very sympathetic. I can watch shows and not ship, especially super hero shows. Actually, of all the ones I watch, yep, Olicity is the only OTP I've got going. So, I can get good action, exciting villains, and coherent plot elsewhere. Olicity, though, that was special to Arrow and elevated the show into must see, taking off work for the premiere. Maybe if the proposal hadn't happened, I'd be more patient to work through these stall tactics. But it did and my patience is thin to non-existent at this point. 

I'm going to need SA to spoil another 320 to have any hope that I'll be around for the reunion. (And not something like remember 712 because no, I won't be around that long. Thank you writers for fanfic!)

[LeighAn]

If the writers want them back together they'll put them back together whether it's realistic or not so in that sense nothing is too big a stall. 

For me though all I really need is a genuine apology awareness moment from Oliver and Felicity like when Chuck apologised to Blair in season 5 or  even better the Lorelai/Luke apology in season 7. Examples below. Give me that and I'll be okay with a reunion as I don't think Olicity are unforgivably broken and therefore unshippable. 

 

 

[dtissagirl]

Oh yeah, I totally have leftover resentment from LAST season. I still think the baby mama drama broke/ruined Oliver/this show, and that it still hasn't been fixed. Except TPTB believe it has been fixed, which means it will NEVER be fixed.

Hence setting phasers to mocking.

[Carrie Ann]

29 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

It feels like even though Felicity was the one to walk away from the engagement, she's been there for Oliver for whatever he needed whereas ever since Oliver found out she's dating someone else, he hasn't been there for her at all.  It's like she's some stranger he happens to work with.

And then there's the fact that he's done nothing about the reasons she left him, the secrets and excluding her from decisions he initates.  Even if she does get jealous seeing him with Susan, there's still no reason to get back together.

I agree that Felicity is shown to be there for Oliver way more often than he for her, which is in part a function of him being the main character and in part the fact that the show almost never cares to give Felicity (or any non-Oliver character) a POV. And this season, when they do, the core characters almost always turn to a noob instead of to each other (except for Thea/Quentin). But in that vein, while they did seem like closer friends to me a few times prior to 505 because they shared some actual conversations, I don't think any of those involved Oliver explicitly supporting Felicity. Which is not great! But post-505, I think they've both been treating each other like work pals and nothing more. So that doesn't bother me MORE from Oliver's side than from Felicity's. 

As far as the second point, I guess I just disagree that he's kept real secrets from her or excluded her from things that really impact her. I don't think breaking Dig out of prison had anything to do with her. It was Lyla's decision, which Oliver supported. I can't think of anything beyond that? But anyway, he's not explicitly trying to make changes in order to get her back, but I think, as of 416, her dealbreakers were that he would always retreat to doing things on his own, and not let anyone in, and the whole William debacle was evidence of that. The whole beginning of the season was about him wanting to stay that course as GA, but ultimately accepting her plan to bring on new team members, and then to train them, and to really trust them versus just ordering them around and keeping them at a distance. I think he's growing, I just...don't care about it as it relates to the noobs.

And, yeah, if they are going to get back together, then at some point, that growth does need to be explicitly related to her concerns and needs. But...the show isn't doing that yet, because...the writers are bad at their jobs and don't know how to stall a relationship without just dropping it for awhile, apparently.

17 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Something else that bothers me is that Oliver and Felicity had all summer to talk about things like Havenrock. We had, what, one moment of him asking her about it only for it to be brushed aside? (And that was before he knew about Billy.) There could have easily been a line from Oliver to Diggle during that video chat in 501 that he's tried to talk to her, but she won't talk to him. Or something. Felicity has said they don't have that kind of relationship anymore, but have we seen Oliver say that to anyone? Not that I can remember.

I don't think I understand. Are you saying that you don't think Oliver believed there was any distance between him and Felicity?

26 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

I'm just bored with him rn because he's acting emotionless so much of the time. Not even just with Felicity tho that's the most jarring but I think he's like that with all the people he's supposed to care about like Thea, Digg or Lance.

I do agree with this very much. I am finding it very hard to relate to any of the characters this season because they barely relate to each other, and when they do, it's often not in ways I recognize.

[insomniadreams88]

8 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Oh yeah, I totally have leftover resentment from LAST season. I still think the baby mama drama broke/ruined Oliver/this show, and that it still hasn't been fixed. Except TPTB believe it has been fixed, which means it will NEVER be fixed.

Hence setting phasers to mocking.

Oh, I've completely given up on Oliver ever apologizing to Felicity for the BMD. I think the show would sooner have Felicity apologize to Oliver for it than admit they did so much wrong with that storyline.

1 minute ago, Carrie Ann said:

I don't think I understand. Are you saying that you don't think Oliver believed there was any distance between him and Felicity?

I think that the show took a moment to have Felicity say to Curtis that she and Oliver don't talk anymore, but they haven't had anything from Oliver's side saying the same thing. (I might be wrong.) I think that if they had, maybe Oliver wouldn't come across as not caring about Felicity in season 5. (It would have also helped with the fact that the majority of the Havenrock talk was for Rory's part of it.)

[ladylaw99]

Once again I am finding myself not liking Oliver. The minute Oliver strays away from Diggle and Felicity I find him boring, emotionless and dumb. My problem is I can't connect with him.  I can't deal with the stupidity the writers like to inflict on him.

This is season 5 I guess I expected so much more from these relationships not just from Oliver, though he grates me the most. These writers have forgotten that OTA was a family first before Oliver and Felicity were ever in a romantic relationship and that Diggle and Felicity  were friends that I thought relied on eachother. That is what bothers me the most. If you don't want to put Oliver and Felicity together fine, but don't ruin their characterization in the process.

Now this is Arrow so my expectations should have been low but there is a part of me that is hoping that this show can find it's groove again. 

Everyone deserves to be loved - even Oliver Queen. I just don't buy what these writers are selling with these love interests.

[thegirlsleuth]

Oliver warms up with Thea, Felicity and Moira (sniff!), and his lack of interaction with either Felicity and Thea means we're back to robot Oliver.  I think the scene with Thea and Oliver in 5.08 was the only warm interactions we've seen from him this season, and it was genuinely moving provided you ignored the cockamamie premise that he would leave Thea to have her brain sucked out by the aliens.  

[AyChihuahua]

2 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

Olicity isn't ruined for me, I don't think anything they've done to each other is unforgivable or has crossed the line, at least not yet. I'm not enjoying them this season because of direction the writers chose because they just went with contrived ways of avoiding drama and in turn made both characters seem emotionless a lot of the times. 

I totally find them to be ruined, but it's not so much (for ME) that Oliver has specifically done something unforgivable, it's that I have zero feeling that he loves her. Even back in S3 he seemed to be way more into Thea than Felicity, and from what I've heard, he really, really doesn't care about Felicity this season. I can't even have casual angsty daydreams about them anymore, bc even when I kill her bc of his actions in my daydreams, he's totally "Meh" about her death. At least in S3 I could daydream about his idiotic decisions killing her and him being devastated (there are a couple GREAT fics that go that way). Now, I think he'd be...mildly bummed for a few days? Bothered that he'd need to find a new comms person? 

[AyChihuahua]

45 minutes ago, ladylaw99 said:

Once again I am finding myself not liking Oliver. The minute Oliver strays away from Diggle and Felicity I find him boring, emotionless and dumb. My problem is I can't connect with him.  I can't deal with the stupidity the writers like to inflict on him.

For the record, Oliver is legitimately objectively stupid. I do not mean emotionally constipated. I mean cannot-multiply-double-digits-even-with-pen-and-paper, is-in-danger-of-drowning-in-the-shower flat-out stupid. 

Edited January 5, 2017 by AyChihuahua

[tangerine95]

19 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

I totally find them to be ruined, but it's not so much (for ME) that Oliver has specifically done something unforgivable, it's that I have zero feeling that he loves her. Even back in S3 he seemed to be way more into Thea than Felicity, and from what I've heard, he really, really doesn't care about Felicity this season. I can't even have casual angsty daydreams about them anymore, bc even when I kill her bc of his actions in my daydreams, he's totally "Meh" about her death. At least in S3 I could daydream about his idiotic decisions killing her and him being devastated (there are a couple GREAT fics that go that way). Now, I think he'd be...mildly bummed for a few days? Bothered that he'd need to find a new comms person? 

Idk I don't really get that feeling tbh, I never got the feeling that Oliver doesn't love Felicity or care about her.I think the show has periods where it ignores olicity on one or both sides usually to sell a temp LI like in the middle of season 2, for awhile while Felicity was with Ray and now but imo there's plenty more to show they both care about each other a lot.But I mean sure I would prefer if they chose the more romantic way of writing them this season, like for example having Oliver fight for her for once instead of the plot driven temps. That does taint olicity for me, how much I guess I'll see how I feel when they get back to actually writing for them.

Edited January 5, 2017 by tangerine95

[AyChihuahua]

8 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Idk I don't really get that feeling tbh, I never got the feeling that Oliver doesn't love Felicity or care about her.I think the show has periods where it ignores olicity on one or both sides usually to sell a temp LI like in the middle of season 2, for awhile while Felicity was with Ray and now but imo there's plenty more to show they both care about each other a lot.But I mean sure I would prefer if they chose the more romantic way of writing them this season, like for example having Oliver fight for her for once instead of the plot driven temps. That does taint olicity for me, how much I guess I'll see how I feel when they get back to actually writing for them.

He made out with some rando after killing a good man and her actual real boyfriend. Didn't even hug her. 

If they want the audience to think he still gives a crap about her they really need to signal it more effectively.

BUT, that's why I try to emphasize that to ME he clearly no longer/never really did love her. To ME one true love does not encompass "Meh, I'll check out other options and get back to you." 

[tangerine95]

13 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

He made out with some rando after killing a good man and her actual real boyfriend. Didn't even hug her. 

If they want the audience to think he still gives a crap about her they really need to signal it more effectively.

BUT, that's why I try to emphasize that to ME he clearly no longer/never really did love her. To ME one true love does not encompass "Meh, I'll check out other options and get back to you." 

I agree they're doing a horrible job this season especially and I think they're so plot driven they don't even realize it. I also thought Felicity being okay with being with her new bf in the loft where Oliver and her used to live as an engaged couple and apparently giving him a key a few months after her and Oliver broke up wasn't right for a big love story olicity is supposed to be either. 

They just have no sense of this imo, they needed Felicity alone to show how Oliver ruins lives and they needed Oliver with Susan to start that relationship, they don't care to stop and think how it looks. 

Edited January 5, 2017 by tangerine95

[GirlvsTV]

I think they've pretty clearly established that Felicity was right to tell Oliver she didn't want to be a woman he loved in S3, because he often treats women he is romantically involved with like crap. Although that apparently now extends to women he is friends with as well. That one is a bit harder to pin down though, since many of his lady friends are also exes. 

[LeighAn]

I guess it seems to boil down to whether people stan Felicity or stan Oliver. It seems if you stan one more then the other then anything minor or serious becomes a major slight against the character. I don't stan Oliver or Felicity to be honest. I enjoy them as characters and want the best for them but more then that I think they are pretty people with chemistry who are cute and enjoyable together.

So while I recognise that Oliver has done some pretty emotionally blind or hardly boyfriend of the year material things in relation to Felicity, I also recognise that Felicity has done some not exactly girlfriend of the year things to Oliver whether his offences are worst or not. 

But ultimately I like them together and think they are better characters when together and the show is better when they are together and I want to see the show reach a place where they are back together and can exsist happily in the background like 4x1-4x14.

[AyChihuahua]

16 minutes ago, GirlvsTV said:

I think they've pretty clearly established that Felicity was right to tell Oliver she didn't want to be a woman he loved in S3, because he often treats women he is romantically involved with like crap. Although that apparently now extends to women he is friends with as well. That one is a bit harder to pin down though, since many of his lady friends are also exes. 

He has always had twisted relationships with women, even as Ollie. I think really he's just a lot more Ollie, even now, than he'd like to think. It's great that he doesn't actually cheat now, sure, but he's still crazy self-centered and into meeting his own needs, fuck whoever else. 

I fundamentally believe the writers are ruining him in every way, but they have no idea they're doing it, bc they are Venusians with no understanding of Earth humans and their emotional reactions.

[statsgirl]

kllll

3 hours ago, GirlvsTV said:

I also get that lots of stuff could of happened off-screen to explain away why Oliver, or anyone else, was not with Felicity after Det. Boyfriend died. However, what they chose to show viewers was Oliver getting his smooch on while she was alone and crying (and Dig was in prison!) right after he had mistakenly killed an innocent man. If I didn't know better (that the writers are super lazy/dumb) I'd think they were trying to ruin his character on purpose.

Well, if you're going to put it like that.....

3 hours ago, LeighAn said:

But I do think the writers think they've done enough to show Oliver cares for Felicity? Kind of. 

Im still holding out hope that we will see Oliver be there for Felicity in an emotionally meaningful way in 5B because otherwise why have Felicity go down a "dark path" if not to have Oliver pull her out of it. 

They're taking Felicity down a dark path to give her something to do while Oliver does his thing with Tina and the n00bs. In the end, they'll have something that brings them together suddenly and it will all be over.  Really, I'd rather have Oliver be there for Felicity in her pain but I don't think they even think that way.

I think they've caught the "Everyone Loves Barry" disease.

3 hours ago, Carrie Ann said:

 The whole beginning of the season was about him wanting to stay that course as GA, but ultimately accepting her plan to bring on new team members, and then to train them, and to really trust them versus just ordering them around and keeping them at a distance. I think he's growing, I just...don't care about it as it relates to the noobs.

Like with everything else this season, his growth is more tell than show.  He did take Felicity's advice on needing a new team (yay!) but the interactions with the new team have been so superficial (mostly Oliver growling at them and them bitching back) that it doesn't feel like any real growth has been done at all.

And then, he chooses to take up with Susan after what she did to his sister ... what a dumbass.

[ohjoy]

17 hours ago, Carrie Ann said:

And in general, I really haven't found anything Oliver has done TO Felicity to be upsetting this season. Just disappointing because I want to see more, but I'm disappointed by her w/r/t him too, by which I really mean that I'm frustrated by the writers refusing to tell an O/F story at all.

 

16 hours ago, Angel12d said:

This is basically me. I've never liked the idea of them having new love interests - big mistake, IMO - and I do think Oliver is a moron for trusting Susan, especially after what she did to Thea (same way I think Felicity was dumb to date a cop). But I don't think Olicity is ruined and if the show goes there again, I'm pretty sure I'll still ship it. Probably not as much as I once did because the writing has taken the shine off. But I do think O/F are better together tbh.

I'm just annoyed/frustrated with how they're basically not writing for them at all and ignoring how close they once were (to the point where I do agree that it looks like they don't even care about each other anymore, even though logically I know they're only doing that to help sell the new love interests). But a few crumbs and a flashback scene hinting at a proposal isn't enough for me after everything O/F have been through.

I'm definitely in that boat with you. Although, thinking about the O/F story they were determine to tell in Season 4B, I should probably be counting my blessings that they aren't telling one right now. I'm hoping I still care enough about the show to actually enjoy Olicity whenever they get back around to it. But the current equation of no O/F story + stupidhead Oliver/Susan story - decent acknowledgement of any of the previously established friendships on this show x (Curtis whining + Rene everything) = my interest in upcoming episodes nearing absolute zero.

[rtalive]

On 1/5/2017 at 5:26 AM, GirlvsTV said:

I think they've pretty clearly established that Felicity was right to tell Oliver she didn't want to be a woman he loved in S3, because he often treats women he is romantically involved with like crap. Although that apparently now extends to women he is friends with as well. That one is a bit harder to pin down though, since many of his lady friends are also exes. 

You know you are right. It is so strange that Felicity decided to go away with Oliver in the end of season 3, when she knew exactly who he is, and that he is not perfect, he is a lone wolf, he makes his decisions alone.

Although I do not understand why you think he treats his friends bad, I thing he is the best person as a friend.

[GirlvsTV]

16 minutes ago, rtalive said:

You know you are right. It is so strange that Felicity decided to go away with Oliver in the end of season 3, when she knew exactly who he is, and that he is not perfect, he is a lone wolf, he makes his decisions alone.

Although I do not understand why you think he treats his friends bad, I thing he is the best person as a friend.

She was willing to jump into a relationship with him at the end of season 3 and believed that he'd changed for the better after all the LOA stuff. Then he lied to her again and chose to continue making gigantic life decisions w/o her after they were engaged. She realized that was not something she could live with in a marriage, that it was just who he was and he would never change, so she broke it off.  Then Oliver grossly manipulated her into that fake wedding and spent the rest of season 4 whining about his crap decisions and having everyone pat him on the back.

Cut to 5a where they are now 'friends' and he chose again to keep stuff from her, not to mention how his sh*t choices led to him killing her BF and then leaving her to cry alone while he whined some more and smooched all up on Reporter Lady.

Clearly he was a great fiancé and friend.

[Midnight Lullaby]

31 minutes ago, rtalive said:

 

Although I do not understand why you think he treats his friends bad, I thing he is the best person as a friend.

Welllll he slept with LL right after he told Tommy he couldn't be with her and that he knew he loved her and he was supposed to be his best friend. In season 2 he offered to buy Laurel a drink when she was struggling with her addiction and yelled at her, in season 3 he kidnapped Dig's wife and left his baby alone and this season he hasn't even asked if Felicity is doing okay after Havenrock, losing a friend, her job and the boyfriend he killed. He is also going out with the reporter that crossed his sister. There are times where they show us he cares deeply for some people but he also did some very questionable stuff.

[AyChihuahua]

3 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Welllll he slept with LL right after he told Tommy he couldn't be with her and that he knew he loved her and he was supposed to be his best friend. In season 2 he offered to buy Laurel a drink when she was struggling with her addiction and yelled at her, in season 3 he kidnapped Dig's wife and left his baby alone and this season he hasn't even asked if Felicity is doing okay after Havenrock, losing a friend, her job and the boyfriend he killed. He is also going out with the reporter that crossed his sister. There are times where they show us he cares deeply for some people but he also did some very questionable stuff.

He slept with LL like six hours after telling Tommy to fight for her. 

[AyChihuahua]

37 minutes ago, rtalive said:

You know you are right. It is so strange that Felicity decided to go away with Oliver in the end of season 3, when she knew exactly who he is, and that he is not perfect, he is a lone wolf, he makes his decisions alone.

Although I do not understand why you think he treats his friends bad, I thing he is the best person as a friend.

He's not a lone wolf. He has a team, a sister, he's mayor, he's supposedly a friend, was a fiance. He makes decisions that directly and often even PRIMARILY affect other people without in any way involving them in the decision or even informing them that he's made it. That is the polar opposite of being a good friend or even a decent person. Like if I'm someone's friend I don't decide for that person that her marriage is a fail and therefore file for divorce for her and don't mention it. That is not being a good friend. 

[Ophanim]

I am sorry to say this, but Oliver Queen is one lousy human being, from the beginning of the show. At the first, I tolerate, hope for him, because contacts/talks/connections with others, precisely Moira, Thea, Digg, Tommy, Felicity - they all made him more human, more sympathetic. Now, he lost almost all these connections, and consequently those little human treats he showed.  I already said this, but he is like robot to me right now, always with hands in pocket and looking almost without confidence, at the floor, I just can't read his emotions, but also maybe it is actors acting choice. I just don't like it. And if you do, good for you.

Just after 5 years I expected something... more mature and SMART figure, someone more responsible and reasonable by now, not killing non-remorse machine. But that's just me. Maybe in the end of the season he will finally grown. But there is long road to 200th episode, and it's too early for writers to have smart lead. Hope for the best - is all what's left.

[ladylaw99]

Nothing Oliver Queen does surprises me anymore.  He is like a box of chocolates I never know which side of him I am going to get until the writers decide what they need plot wise .  He changes ever season.

[bijoux]

I finally realized what's my main issue with Oliver's thing with Susan. It's not his past relationship with Felicity and it's not that he's dumb. I've seen him been dumb for years now and around women in the first two seasons he was dumb often. Yet I felt that every badly advised hook up or relationship actually made some sort of sense for his character and motivation, I could see what propelled Oliver to seek out the specific woman in question even as I bemoaned him being stupid.

With Susan, I've got nothing. I get that from a storytelling standpoint they want something in this arena for their lead and that they want conflict what with her being a journalist and a potential threat to both sides of him. But when I think about why Oliver wants it I come out blank. I think they tried to imply that he's looking for a friend (maybe?), but the rest of the narrative doesn't support that he'd need to go looking for one outside his circle. Maybe the thing would have made more sense if they isolated him from the others.