Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[insomniadreams88]

Think of it this way: How would everyone have reacted if the situation was reversed? If say after the death of someone Oliver cared about, Felicity had sought comfort in someone else? (Say her actions hadn't even led to that person's death, just that someone he cared about died and then she was seen going to a guy she had gone on a date with?)

Oliver's being a horrible friend/brother this season. It's as simple as that. 

[tangerine95]

It seems like they were expecting people to feel simpathy for poor Oliver who thinks he ruins everyones lives and can't turn to anyone but the reporter for a reason we're not supposed to question. But that doesn't work when the previous scene was like 5 people comforting him and telling him they're there for him and Felicity not even blaming him at all. 

[ladylaw99]

I too could care less if he moves on to Susan or any other female and I am sorry but Oliver does not put people before him all the time, he wouldn't even be the Arrow if it wasn't for his selfishness.

In Season 5 IMO, he has not been a good friend, in fact none of them have been good friends to Felicity this season.

[GirlvsTV]

I think the writers automatically assume the viewers' sympathy will be with the main protagonist above all other characters. They do this on Flash as well, have Barry do something wrong/dangerous/selfish and then act surprised when viewers don't immediately sympathize with the main character. Arrow's BMD is the perfect example of this. The writers try to fix it by having other characters tell the main character he's still a good person or that he did nothing wrong, except actions speak louder than words and it's hard to forget you watched that character repeatedly do dumb/crappy stuff to their friends/loved ones.

Even though the majority of these story choices are about advancing plot more than anything else, there's only so many times you can compromise your main character that way before those actions add up. Then it's no longer really OOC for them behave in stupid, selfish ways it's just who those characters really are - which I find difficult to deal with since they are both supposed to be heroes that we root for and believe in. At this point, I'm way more likely to cheer on the bad guys going after Oliver

[Hiveminder]

I for one do feel sympathy for Oliver and don't think he should have been comforting Felicity in her apartment while she cried immediately after Billy died. It would have looked pretty sketchy and inappropriate to me.  I would feel the same if their situation was reversed and Felicity was the one who killed his girlfriend through no fault of her own. 

Should someone else have been there for Felicity? Yes, that would have been very nice. Is it Oliver's job to ask someone to be there for her? It would have been touching, but no, it's not his responsibility. 

I feel like some people are denying Oliver's right to feel pain over being tricked into killing an innocent man. Both Felicity and Oliver should be torn up over this, and both have the right to seek comfort wherever they want. Even if that's with shady reporters. It was dumb for Oliver to go to Susan, but I don't get why anyone should get angry about it. 

[MaisyDaisy]

Yeah, you would think that every time he closed his eyes he would see Billy's dead face and the devestation on Felicity's. To be able to compartmentalise that enough to be able to seek out his very new  make out with Susan lacks empathy to the point of narsasisim.

i have seen posts on tumblr pointing out that him acknowledging that he only brings pain to those he loves, added to him seeking out Susan means that he doesn't really care about her. Talking about how it's positive for Olicity. And I am just cringing because if that was truely what he believes then he has no problem putting some woman (Susan) in danger in order to get some intimacy and soothing. Making him feel better trumps her safety. It's all a bit too gross for me.

People are angry because this show has developed a pattern of making the female characters go though physical and emotional pain to only sweep their pain under the carpet to focus on the male characters and how the females tragedy has affected them. Felicity has gone above and beyond for Oliver, it's human decency to be there for a friend you played a direct role in hurting- however unintentional.

Edited January 11, 2017 by MaisyDaisy

[Midnight Lullaby]

It's not that. But he isn't the victim in all of this. The victim is the guy he killed and the people that cared about him. It would be the same if Felicity instead of going to talk to Rory that quit the team after she told him about Havenrock went to have sex with Billy because that would have made her feel better and who cares if Rory is in pain. And Rory isn't even her friend. I don't like people that first and foremost care about themselves. It's the thing that used to make me go nuts with Laurel. She was always "but what about me??" and I don't like it with Oliver either.

[insomniadreams88]

24 minutes ago, MaisyDaisy said:

People are angry because this show has developed a pattern of making the female characters go though physical and emotional pain to only sweep their pain under the carpet to focus on the male characters and how the females tragedy has affected them. Felicity has gone above and beyond for Oliver, it's human decency to be there for a friend you played a direct role in hurting- however unintentional.

Yep. Just think about when Felicity was paralyzed last season. We didn't get to see the doctor telling her she'd never walk again - or anything really about her in the hospital, other than her assuring the others that she'd be fine before yet another surgery and then seeing how Oliver was doing and if he'd gone off the rails - but we saw Oliver find out. 

And again, Oliver didn't have to be with Felicity. He could have even just stood outside the loft. Looked up at the loft. Jumped on the balcony. Even just looked at her name in the Contacts list on his phone. Something. And then went to Susan's so he'd have someone to give his speech to.

It really says something about the show that the EPs and SA had to clarify multiple times that Oliver didn't have sex with Susan, and to me, that says that they honestly didn't think about how their hero would look - going to see the woman he's barely dating and who's waiting in lingerie while Felicity, Curtis and Diggle are miserable. That goes back to focusing on Oliver.

Edited January 11, 2017 by insomniadreams88

[LeighAn]

12 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

It's not that. But he isn't the victim in all of this. The victim is the guy he killed and the people that cared about him. It would be the same if Felicity instead of going to talk to Rory that quit the team after she told him about Havenrock went to have sex with Billy because that would have made her feel better and who cares if Rory is in pain. And Rory isn't even her friend. I don't like people that first and foremost care about themselves. It's the thing that used to make me go nuts with Laurel. She was always "but what about me??" and I don't like it with Oliver either.

Like I raised my sister from the dead chained her up in a basement then she got loose and killed multiple innocent people and I forced my principled father to lie about it to the dead girls families and the force to cover my ass- but Oliver why are you so mean to me? Why don't you think I'm the bestest ever anymore? 

Yeah... Don't be Laurel, Oliver. 

[CooperTV]

1 hour ago, rtalive said:

I am sure we will see Oliver blaming himself and mourning for Billy in the future episodes, this is too soon to judge him.

I know the writers are convinced we haven't seen enough manpain from Oliver after all those years or non-stop manpain but maybe they should ease up on that a little bit?

Edited January 11, 2017 by CooperTV

[Hiveminder]

I'm not saying that Oliver is the victim here or the biggest victim, but he is a victim. And I'm not saying the writing isn't shitty and women don't get majorly short shrift on this show. I just think all the anger directed at Oliver for going Susan at that moment, especially when all we saw was a pretty lackluster kiss that she initiated, is misdirected. I feel like people are mad at a fictional character's fairly understandable reaction to a trauma when they should be angry at the tone deafness and general mediocrity of the writing team. 

[rtalive]

18 minutes ago, CooperTV said:

I know the writers are convinced we haven't seen enough manpain from Oliver after all those years or non-stop manpain but maybe they should ease up on that a little bit?

Well I guess it is never a win win situation. If he has emotions, for some it's man pain, if he does not, for others it is insensitive. If he calls  Felicity, for some it is stoking her, if he does not, he does not care for her and so on.

Maybe they should write him off, and does not bother us with his stories of man pain, other romances, and vigilantism  ;) ;) ;)

[ladylaw99]

Oliver should be torn up after killing an innocent man.   He should be able to wallow in his feelings.

In Season 3 all Oliver cared about was Felicity's happiness.  So I am to believe that Oliver would not want to make sure Felicity is at least not alone.  If anyone should know what she is going through it his him.  Look at all the people he has lost. People have been there for him so that he doesn't go to that dark place that he struggles with.

It may not be his responsibility but he loved her once deeply so you would think he would want to make sure she is not alone.  

I put this all on the shitty writers. This is why Felicity needs a friend.  There really is no one she can rely on.

[Midnight Lullaby]

1 minute ago, Hiveminder said:

I'm not saying that Oliver is the victim here or the biggest victim, but he is a victim. And I'm not saying the writing isn't shitty and women don't get majorly short shrift on this show. I just think all the anger directed at Oliver for going Susan at that moment, especially when all we saw was a pretty lackluster kiss that she initiated, is misdirected. I feel like people are mad at a fictional character's fairly understandable reaction to a trauma when they should be angry at the tone deafness and general mediocrity of the writing team. 

But you said people don't want to allow him to grieve and it's not that, it's that it's not about him this time. A self-centered person would feel he is the victim of the situation and think about his pain, that's what Oliver did, a more selfless and caring person would think about the people he hurt first, that's what Roy did when he killed the cop for example. Roy's reaction made me like him more, Oliver's reaction made me like him less.

Kissing Susan isn't the part that annoys me, it weirds me out. Feeling in the mood after killing someone is creepy to me but that's another thing entirely.

[Angel12d]

I think this whole problem could've been solved if more of the team had comforted Felicity and not just Oliver after he killed her boyfriend. I agree that the scene with Susan was icky based on the timing of it all but he is free to kiss/sleep with whoever he wants. I don't like it but it is what it is.

And while it would've been nice to have a quick scene of Oliver asking someone to look after Felicity or for someone to be there with her (like maybe if we saw Thea in the background in the loft, just to show that she wasn't alone), it's pretty clear they wanted all of the people he cares about the most to be alone and in a bad place while Oliver had his sad little monologue over those scenes. Because plot.

[apinknightmare]

10 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

A self-centered person would feel he is the victim of the situation and think about his pain, that's what Oliver did, a more selfless and caring person would think about the people he hurt first,

But Oliver explained that he felt like he ruined the lives of everyone around him and getting away from them was what was best for them, so...seems like based on his headspace after the fact he was thinking about the people he hurt. 

He just did it in the typical dumb Oliver way which is default removing himself entirely from the situation. 

Edited January 11, 2017 by apinknightmare

[rtalive]

4 minutes ago, ladylaw99 said:

Oliver should be torn up after killing an innocent man.   He should be able to wallow in his feelings.

In Season 3 all Oliver cared about was Felicity's happiness.  So I am to believe that Oliver would not want to make sure Felicity is at least not alone.  If anyone should know what she is going through it his him.  Look at all the people he has lost. People have been there for him so that he doesn't go to that dark place that he struggles with.

It may not be his responsibility but he loved her once deeply so you would think he would want to make sure she is not alone.  

I put this all on the shitty writers. This is why Felicity needs a friend.  There really is no one she can rely on.

Why grieving alone is such an awful thing. People grieve alone. And why people are bothered only that Oliver didn't call, why not Thea or Diggle, before being arrested. Besides he thought that the last thing she wants is him at that moment.

And people should have in mind too, that Oliver was never written as a perfect person, he was intended to be very flawed from the beginning. He is some kind of anti hero. I think that some people think that he should evolve, and I do believe he did change for the better, but this season they are reversing him a little back to his old habits. 

[Hiveminder]

7 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

But you said people don't want to allow him to grieve and it's not that, it's that it's not about him this time. A self-centered person would feel he is the victim of the situation and think about his pain, that's what Oliver did, a more selfless and caring person would think about the people he hurt first, that's what Roy did when he killed the cop for example. Roy's reaction made me like him more, Oliver's reaction made me like him less.

Kissing Susan isn't the part that annoys me, it weirds me out. Feeling in the mood after killing someone is creepy to me but that's another thing entirely.

Maybe I should have said that people seem to want him to grieve in the way they want him to grieve. And isn't it a little about him?  He's the one who killed an innocent man. I don't think one person's pain should take precedence over another's. 

I didn't read Oliver as being in the mood. I think, for whatever ridiculous reason, he went to Susan to talk. She kissed him, and that's all we saw. I didn't see Oliver trying to get his rocks off. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

4 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

But Oliver explained that he felt like he ruined the lives of everyone around him and getting away from them was what was best for them, so...seems like based on his headspace after the fact he was thinking about the people he hurt. 

He was throwing himself a pity party. The whole speech was about himself so I disagree, I didn't get the idea he was thinking about other people's pain in that moment but about his.

[insomniadreams88]

3 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

I didn't read Oliver as being in the mood. I think, for whatever ridiculous reason, he went to Susan to talk. She kissed him, and that's all we saw. I didn't see Oliver trying to get his rocks off. 

This probably could have also been solved if Susan hadn't been in lingerie. Again, as has been said in this forum multiple times, seriously, it's December. Lingerie + kiss + ambiguous end to scene = sex on TV. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

3 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

Maybe I should have said that people seem to want him to grieve in the way they want him to grieve. And isn't it a little about him?  He's the one who killed an innocent man. I don't think one person's pain should take precedence over another's. 

I didn't read Oliver as being in the mood. I think, for whatever ridiculous reason, he went to Susan to talk. She kissed him, and that's all we saw. I didn't see Oliver trying to get his rocks off. 

He can grieve in the way he wants to grieve but I'm allowed not to like what he does, LOL. It's all about personal preferences..I really don't like the way he is acting this season. It is also about him but imo it says a lot about a person if they put their pain or other people's pain first. He is the hero of the show, I want to admire him and I can't.

I don't know about the kiss..initially I thought they had sex because it wasn't a chaste kiss at all. And it's not like Susan kissed him against his will. They were both active participants and I find it weird to be in the mood to make out after you killed someone.

[ladylaw99]

We are in Season 5, I started to watch the show because I thought it would be interesting to see a tortured soul.  The problem for me is that we see him evolve to only regress.  I know Oliver is not perfect - there is no such thing but I guess I expect more from someone who wants to save his city.

People can grieve anyway they want but it would be nice to see someone else's POV other than Oliver's same old "I ruin people's lives, blah blah" speech to a different women ever season.  It gets old real quick.

Again, this is only my opinion and I appreciate that others do not have a problem with the way the story is going, it's just not my cup of tea.

[CooperTV]

15 minutes ago, rtalive said:

Well I guess it is never a win win situation. If he has emotions, for some it's man pain, if he does not, for others it is insensitive.

No, manpain has specific definition, which is when a character's feelings, his emotional responses to anything surrounding (as those characters are usually white men or white men in position of privilege), his struggle are valued more by narrative than feelings, emotional responses or struggles of everyone else (usually women, minorities, children, etc). Characters with manpain are shown to be prioritize their angst over someone's suffering. Examples to manpain are:

a) "my wife was raped, whatever shall I do, I feel so much pain and anguish, how will I cope".

or

b) "my fiancee was paralyzed by an evil man, my enemy, I'm going to smash some evil dudes heads together because that makes me feel better, and my paralyzed fiancee will say it's okay for me to go AWOL at this tiring time for me";

c) "I accidentally kill my friend's and ex-fiancee's boyfriend, whatever shall I do, how one person can suffer so much in their life, I can't deal with this feelings anymore, I'm gonna have sex with that lady I first met five minutes ago to make myself feel better".

[AyChihuahua]

2 hours ago, rtalive said:

Ok, he is really bad person, treats people really bad, hope she never forgives him, and he gets into being a playboy again ;) ;) ;)

Anyway I am not going to defend Oliver, but how exactly is he leaving her alone to cry, she is alone, because her boyfriend is the dead Billy, not Oliver. 

You do realize, that when you are an ex boyfriend, there is no place for you next to your ex girlfriend in a moment like that. He can go and smooch whoever he wants because he is not in a relationship for more than a year and the guy is also lonely and broken from what happened.

The boyfriend didn't die...Oliver killed him. And it didn't "happen[]." Oliver did it. It wasn't something that just occurred, it's something Oliver DID. It doesn't matter that they're no longer dating...even a reasonably decent friend would have at least sent someone else to check on her if he was too gutless to do it himself.

Instead, Oliver quite literally KILLED her boyfriend and then did not raise one single tiny finger to IN ANY WAY comfort or help the friend/colleague/teammate/ex-fiancée whose boyfriend he KILLED.

[Ophanim]

It would be more powerful meaningful scene if O and F were been alone in the moment of confession, but the writers chose different approach and that tells me: this killing Billy is all about Oliver and not Felicity or future Olicity (if there is any). 

RE: scene on the couch, viewers definitely were alluded to sex. The writers should have ended scene with somehow Oliver stooping Susan for further, or something, if they were so adamant for Oliver to not have sex in that moment. SO from my perspective they had sex. And that alone fact is ICK factor for me, because he just killed a man. And that's why I can not see Felicity with Oliver anymore. 

[dtissagirl]

23 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

But Oliver explained that he felt like he ruined the lives of everyone around him and getting away from them was what was best for them, so...seems like based on his headspace after the fact he was thinking about the people he hurt.

I think this was a prime example of how showing makes more of an impression than telling. Oliver's speech was telling how terrible he felt at that time, but seeing the other characters in shitty situations makes more of an impact because this is a visual media first. The direction and the editing failed Oliver there.

[Carrie Ann]

Like @dtissagirl said, the directorial/editing choices were pretty baffling, the resulting optics are unnecessarily bad and dumb--Oliver tells Felicity and she immediately absolves him (good!), then everyone but Thea surrounds him (ummm), then Felicity cries alone at home (bad) while Oliver receives comfort elsewhere (ummm) from a lady he should not trust (bad) who answers her door in lingerie (whaaaaa?).

The kiss with Susan felt inappropriate, IMO, mostly because of that framing and because of bad timing. I think the EPs wanted to get that kiss in before the break and they wanted this scene of Oliver talking about his sads as a life-ruiner over the shots of Dig/Felicity (which again...bad, and why???), so they killed two birds with one stone. But I think they should have had their first on-screen kiss before then--earlier in the episode, a few episodes earlier?--so that this one didn't seem like anything other than Oliver going to talk to someone he was dating, and then doing something that people who are dating do for all sorts of reasons, not just as a precursor to sex. I assume they wanted this one to be like...Oliver reaching out to someone instead of folding inward and withdrawing as usual, looking for connection and comfort instead of the opposite. (And I get that some people would have wanted to see him reach out to Felicity instead, especially as a selfless act, but the motto of 5A is apparently that we can't have nice things.) But then they put Susan in lingerie and filmed it weirdly and I just don't really get it?*

At any rate, I believe that in general terms, Felicity is feeling more trauma than Oliver is right now (even though I think his specific trauma w/r/t killing Billy is about even with her grief re: losing her non-boyfriend), which makes him look extra selfish when he receives comfort after killing her non-boyfriend. But I guess my small hope for 5B is that we see that Oliver (and everyone else?) is intentionally being written as unaware of the depth of her trauma right now (even if we believe he/they should have picked up on it), and that once they realize it, they do something about it. Maybe? Please?

*ETA: There IS one other reason to consider as to why they made some of these choices re: the O/S scene, which is that they want viewers to see Susan as shady and be concerned that Oliver made a bad choice there. I kind of forget that it's not just my bias against her, but the actual narrative that wants you to be suspicious of her and worried/disapproving of Oliver.

Edited January 11, 2017 by Carrie Ann

[apinknightmare]

29 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

He was throwing himself a pity party. The whole speech was about himself so I disagree, I didn't get the idea he was thinking about other people's pain in that moment but about his.

In what way is he supposed to talk about what he's done to hurt people without talking about himself? What he said is no different than if he'd gone to Diggle or Thea and said, "What I did really hurt Felicity. I keep doing things that hurt Felicity." It's just less descriptive because he's talking to someone who doesn't know her or what he's done. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

4 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

In what way is he supposed to talk about what he's done to hurt people without talking about himself? What he said is no different than if he'd gone to Diggle or Thea and said, "What I did really hurt Felicity. I keep doing things that hurt Felicity." It's just less descriptive because he's talking to someone who doesn't know her or what he's done. 

You said his speech was proof he was thinking about other people, not himself. I disagreed because I thought that speech was about his pain, his feelings. Checking on Felicity or looking for informations about Mayo, to see if he had any family, would have showed me him thinking about other people's pain for example, talking about himself showed me he was thinking about himself. That was my impression watching the scene.

[apinknightmare]

6 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

You said his speech was proof he was thinking about other people, not himself.

No, I said that that based on the way he explained his belief that he ruins the lives of people he loves that he was thinking of them and their pain by getting away from them. I never said he wasn't thinking of himself-I think that it's natural that he would given the fact that he considered his involvement in their lives the basis of their pain. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

6 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

No, I said that that based on the way he explained his belief that he ruins the lives of people he loves that he was thinking of them and their pain by getting away from them. I never said he wasn't thinking of himself-I think that it's natural that he would given the fact that he considered his involvement in their lives the basis of their pain. 

Okay. We read that scene differently. Watching the scene I felt it was all about his pain, nothing else, and I didn't like that.

[statsgirl]

I got that Oliver was feeling bad because he caused his friends pain.  But the emphasis was on how bad Oliver felt because he did this, not on Diggle, Curtis, and Felicity who were the one directly feeling the pain.   If Oliver were focusing on his friends rather than himself, he would have pushed Susan away when she went to kiss him.  Getting into the kiss told me that wanting to make himself feel better was his primary thought.

1 hour ago, Angel12d said:

I think this whole problem could've been solved if more of the team had comforted Felicity and not just Oliver after he killed her boyfriend. I agree that the scene with Susan was icky based on the timing of it all but he is free to kiss/sleep with whoever he wants. I don't like it but it is what it is.

And while it would've been nice to have a quick scene of Oliver asking someone to look after Felicity or for someone to be there with her (like maybe if we saw Thea in the background in the loft, just to show that she wasn't alone), it's pretty clear they wanted all of the people he cares about the most to be alone and in a bad place while Oliver had his sad little monologue over those scenes. Because plot.

 The writers wanted to emphasis to be on Oliver and his feelings, not on the people who were feeling the real effects and pain.

While Oliver is the hero of the show, everything can't be about him and how he sees what's happening to the people around him because then he becomes unappealingly narcissistic. Like they have a problem letting a scene breathe, they also have a problem letting a situation affect the characters that it should.

3 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

And @ComicFan777 is right..feeling like making out with someone after murdering a guy is just wrong. I could see that in an episode of Criminal Minds and it would be a hint it's the guy they are trying to catch.

THIS. 

There were two big things wrong with the ending of the episode.  The first was that no one seemed to care about Felicity, who was the person who was in the greatest pain.  She was metaphorically fridged so Oliver could feel bad about killing her boyfriend.

The second was Oliver goes to Susan, who was 1. a sketchy choice to start with and 2. making out with her.  I've been told by guys (online) that you seek sex when you feel bad. Yes, if you need comfort but it's just really gross  to have sex when you are the killer yourself.  A healthy, empathic person would be filled with self-loathing, not be sexually aroused.

3 hours ago, dtissagirl said:

There's also cinematic and editing choices involved here, which were... unfortunate to say the least. When you show Felicity crying alone + Diggle getting arrested while Oliver is making out with an investigative reporter right after he killed a person, there's intent on it from the direction and editing. It doesn't even matter if they didn't ~mean to have intention. It's there because that's how cinematic language and classical editing works. What they showed was everyone's life is in the shit while the hero protagonist is getting his rocks off.

One of the bigy LOLs about this season is how much they've back pedaled -- no, no, Oliver didn't really have sex with Susan!  They just set it up in perfect movie shorthand for sex -- woman just happen to be hanging around her apartment in lingerie in the middle of winter, drinks, sad speech, she kisses him to make him feel better .... cut.  It was only after they got viewer response that they realized how gross the scene was and frantically tried to pull it back.  I'm pretty sure everyone who hasn't been reading the post-airing interviews believes Oliver slept with Susan.  If Arrow shows them sleeping together after this it will confirm it.

Antonio Negret is one of their best directors but he deserves blame not only in that scene but the lair scene before it when everyone went to comfort Oliver while only Thea and only for a couple of seconds thought about Felicity.  He could have made it much better by having Diggle or Rory think about Felicity too instead of everyone only being about Oliver manpain.

[insomniadreams88]

11 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Antonio Negret is one of their best directors but he deserves blame not only in that scene but the lair scene before it when everyone went to comfort Oliver while only Thea and only for a couple of seconds thought about Felicity.  He could have made it much better by having Diggle or Rory think about Felicity too instead of everyone only being about Oliver manpain.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Thea then reaching for Oliver (while sort of pulling Felicity along in that half-hug) as the scene ended? (I don't want to rewatch even a GIF because it makes me rage-y.) Talk all you want about off-screen stuff, but that makes it seem more likely that anything off-screen after that wouldn't have included comforting Felicity but all the comfort from the team going to Oliver and sort of dragging Felicity into it and then Felicity wanting to be alone because, like she said in 413, whatever she was feeling/going through/dealing with wasn't as important. 

#GiveFelicityaFriendin2017

[dtissagirl]

15 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Antonio Negret is one of their best directors but he deserves blame not only in that scene but the lair scene before it when everyone went to comfort Oliver while only Thea and only for a couple of seconds thought about Felicity.  He could have made it much better by having Diggle or Rory think about Felicity too instead of everyone only being about Oliver manpain.

Yeah, that overhead shot of the boobs surrounding Oliver was a terribad directing choice if I ever saw one.

[Ophanim]

This all make me sad for Felicity and angry on the writers for making me dislike the main character. There is no win in this situation :(

[apinknightmare]

22 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I got that Oliver was feeling bad because he caused his friends pain.  But the emphasis was on how bad Oliver felt because he did this, not on Diggle, Curtis, and Felicity who were the one directly feeling the pain.

But how do you talk to a third party about something you've done that caused someone pain that is totally about the pain you've caused and not about what you did to cause it? 

I'm just trying to figure out how this conversation could've gone differently that wouldn't sound like a "pity party." The text was pretty clear about why he didn't confide in Diggle or Thea or Felicity - because they were lumped into the group of people whose lives he believed he was ruining. If he'd just talked to Susan about the people he loved hurting without acknowledging that he had something to do with it, wouldn't that be interpreted as...denial? I imagine if he'd said something like, "Everyone I love is hurting" without mentioning that he was the cause of it would've been met with a, "yeah, because of you, you moron!" 

Seems like the self-awareness that the hurting is coming because of their involvement with him (which is true, since Prometheus is the one who is targeting them in his quest to take Oliver's support system away from him) is pretty important here, since both his first and second instinct was to distance himself from them, and ultimately he's not going to. 

[dtissagirl]

That's when the dumb choice of going to Susan to give this speech fucks up Oliver. He just killed an innocent man, and he also just had this experience of seeing his dead parents again. Go to his parents' grave and say "I feel like I hurt everyone I love". Then it's poignant instead of sleazy.

But they obviously need sleazy for plot.

[Ophanim]

7 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Go to his parents' grave and say "I feel like I hurt everyone I love". Then it's poignant instead of sleazy.

THIS! is so much better choice, imagine light rain, darkness, and his words.... I would feel bad for him in that scene. 

Instead we got ... that scene. Yeah... big fail.

[apinknightmare]

23 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

That's when the dumb choice of going to Susan to give this speech fucks up Oliver. He just killed an innocent man, and he also just had this experience of seeing his dead parents again. Go to his parents' grave and say "I feel like I hurt everyone I love". Then it's poignant instead of sleazy.

But they obviously need sleazy for plot.

Going to wallow in his feels at an empty grave also seems like a pity party to me? Without the gross issue of him getting comfort in the way he did, of course, but his conversation with Susan was what started this particular debate, not what happened after it.

I'm not arguing that he should've gone to Susan's BTW - I think it was stupid. I'm genuinely trying to figure out what the people who think he was being selfish with what he said would've considered proper acknowledgement of other people's pain over his own within the parameters that the show set, which was that he wasn't going to talk about this with any of the people he would normally talk about it with and did, in fact, turn to Shady Susie.

Edited January 11, 2017 by apinknightmare

[Chaser]

I blame the entire thing on Reporter. Cause I can.

[dtissagirl]

13 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I blame the entire thing on Reporter. Cause I can.

It's kind of hilarity forever that Oliver is being investigated on shady Russian deals, considering the last two days of real life events and all. But at least IRL, common sense is that investigative reporters have a duty to seek corroboration once they discover shady info, and that they do so as the mouthpiece of the public. On Arrow, they go for the sultry seductress reporter who's totally fine with dating the subject of her investigation, and she's framed by the narrative as a bad thing because the hero HAS shady deals with Russia.

The sad part is I'm not sure Guggie et. al are aware of this contrast, because they did choose to portray a female journalist in the worst most reviled clichéd way possible. And this has been written about over and over and over and over again, and it's still the go-to way for dudebro-focused media.

Edited January 11, 2017 by dtissagirl

[statsgirl]

Going to his parents' graves, which I think would have been a >>>>>>>>> better choice than going to Susan, would still have been Oliver feeling sorry for himself to some extent but it wouldn't have had the overtones of "I feel so bad -- make me feel better" that going to Susan did.  When Slade killed Moira, Oliver felt guilty for causing it but he went to be alone, not going to the woman he's been dating for 5 minutes so she can make him feel better.

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

In what way is he supposed to talk about what he's done to hurt people without talking about himself? What he said is no different than if he'd gone to Diggle or Thea and said, "What I did really hurt Felicity. I keep doing things that hurt Felicity." It's just less descriptive because he's talking to someone who doesn't know her or what he's done. 

Skipping over the fact that it's moronic to reveal anything about himself to a reporter who is trying to bring him down especially when he is vulnerable, I'd prefer "I have some good friends but they're hurting and I don't know how to help them.  They're good people but whenever I try to help, to do some good, it always seems to make it harder on them."

I was initially going to say "Even Thea, she lost her mother because Slade wanted to hurt me from what happened on the island" but then Susan would digging into Slade and Oliver on the island and maybe Roy. As I said, moronic to go to Susan.

1 hour ago, Carrie Ann said:

The kiss with Susan felt inappropriate, IMO, mostly because of that framing and because of bad timing. I think the EPs wanted to get that kiss in before the break and they wanted this scene of Oliver talking about his sads as a life-ruiner over the shots of Dig/Felicity (which again...bad, and why???), so they killed two birds with one stone. But I think they should have had their first on-screen kiss before then--earlier in the episode, a few episodes earlier?--so that this one didn't seem like anything other than Oliver going to talk to someone he was dating, and then doing something that people who are dating do for all sorts of reasons, not just as a precursor to sex. I assume they wanted this one to be like...Oliver reaching out to someone instead of folding inward and withdrawing as usual, looking for connection and comfort instead of the opposite. (And I get that some people would have wanted to see him reach out to Felicity instead, especially as a selfless act, but the motto of 5A is apparently that we can't have nice things.) But then they put Susan in lingerie and filmed it weirdly and I just don't really get it?*

I've read that a lot in blogs, that this is a good thing for Olicity, and I think Ewwwww.  Because while I'm all in favour of Oliver reaching out instead of in, he should have gone to Thea, or Rory, or even Rene if he couldn't go to Diggle or Curtis for plot purposes.   With someone on his team it would have had the added depth of the cost of being a vigilante. With Quentin, it would have been a good bonding moment because Quentin's hurt people because he was too focused on his job too.

But instead they had him go to Susan, who he really couldn't be honest with anyway and who has been set up as a shady character because they are so very, very afraid of Olicity feels.

 

45 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

And correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Thea then reaching for Oliver (while sort of pulling Felicity along in that half-hug) as the scene ended? (I don't want to rewatch even a GIF because it makes me rage-y.)

Felicity!  Come help us comfort Oliver, he feels so bad because  he killed Billy

[apinknightmare]

Quote

The sad part is I'm not sure Guggie et. al are aware of this contrast, because they did choose to portray a female journalist in the worst most reviled clichéd way possible.

 

Channel 52 lady is the gold standard of Arrowverse reporting. There through earthquakes, and mirakudude attacks, and biological weapons attacks, and nukes. 

Susan could never. 

Edited January 11, 2017 by apinknightmare

[Midnight Lullaby]

29 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Going to wallow in his feels at an empty grave also seems like a pity party to me? Without the gross issue of him getting comfort in the way he did, of course, but his conversation with Susan was what started this particular debate, not what happened after it.

I'm not arguing that he should've gone to Susan's BTW - I think it was stupid. I'm genuinely trying to figure out what the people who think he was being selfish with what he said would've considered proper acknowledgement of other people's pain over his own within the parameters that the show set, which was that he wasn't going to talk about this with any of the people he would normally talk about it with and did, in fact, turn to Shady Susie.

But the conversation with Susan wasn't what we were originally debating. The debate was if not checking/asking someone to check on Felicity and going to the reporter to seek comfort after he killed Mayo was a self-centered behavior or an understandable human reaction.

You talked specifically about the conversation and I said I didn't find it a relevant hint that he was thinking about other people's pain. His actions made me think he cared to seek comfort for himself and didn't think about his friends and I don't think his words can be used as an argument to show that despite his actions he wasn't being selfish because I thought his speech was all about his pain. If he showed through actions that he cared and after that he gave the speech I would say he showed he cared but the whole point is his behavior that his speech, imo, doesn't make any better.

[insomniadreams88]

He started and ended the episode with bad decisions involving Susan. Think back to the fact that he brought Susan as his date to the holiday party that Thea planned. He brought the reporter who manipulated his sister to the party that said sister planned. 

[tangerine95]

Yeah I've seen the argument that Oliver going to Susan is a sign of growth because he didn't withdraw but I don't really agree with that tbh.I can totally see the writers considering it that tho I don't think anything Susan related is there to develop Oliver or olicity, she seems to be there more for plot reasons and is a LI because they seem to think a breakup must include a temp LI.

 I think going to Susan looks more like the easy choice and more of a distraction because it's not like she knows anything about what actually happened or his life and can't either blame him or absolve him of guilt because she has no real idea. I think growth would have been facing the people closest to him and doing everything he can to help them  in some way despite his guilt  because they have done it for him many times before. I mean it's season 5, he shouldn't be reacting like he would in early seasons and maybe he should be able to put other people above his own guilt and need for comfort. And going to for comfort and vaguely opening up to a shady or wrong person isn't even new for him tbh.Everything about Oliver this season feels like a regression. 

[apinknightmare]

18 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

But the conversation with Susan wasn't what we were originally debating. The debate was if not checking/asking someone to check on Felicity and going to the reporter to seek comfort after he killed Mayo was a self-centered behavior or an understandable human reaction.

You talked specifically about the conversation and I said I didn't find it a relevant hint that he was thinking about other people's pain. His actions made me think he cared to seek comfort for himself and didn't think about his friends and I don't think his words can be used as an argument to show that despite his actions he wasn't being selfish because I thought his speech was all about his pain. If he showed through actions that he cared and after that he gave the speech I would say he showed he cared but the whole point is his behavior that his speech, imo, doesn't make any better.

Sorry, my wires have gotten crossed between the actual conversation (which I considered the "pity party" comment to be in reference to), and his desire to distance himself from the team (which my initial comment was referencing, and why I thought that he was thinking about them and their pain in his mindset at the moment). But...no need to rehash it since we don't agree!

Edited January 11, 2017 by apinknightmare

[lemotomato]

44 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

I mean it's season 5, he shouldn't be reacting like he would in early seasons and maybe he should be able to put other people above his own guilt and need for comfort. And going to for comfort and vaguely opening up to a shady or wrong person isn't even new for him tbh. Everything about Oliver this season feels like a regression. 

I think that's the crux of the problem. We've been debating over what Oliver should have done vs what was shown onscreen, when this whole season has been Oliver doing things as though the last 4 seasons never happened. We're expecting season 5 Oliver, someone that has grown as a person, but the show has regressed him to his season 1 persona. He's killing bad guys indiscriminately, he's dating a woman that is untrustworthy and that hurt his sister (in season 1 he dated Helena even after knowing she shot his mother), he's making unilateral decisions ("I'm breaking Digg out and that's that!") and leaving people out of the loop (Did Thea even know about Human Target wearing Oliver's face to get shot on purpose?). According to the Oliver that the writers want to show this season, that we didn't get a scene of him checking up on Felicity after accidentally killing her boyfriend makes sense. 

As to why they decided to reboot Oliver and where they're going with this, I have no idea. Season 1 Oliver was IMO not a sympathetic character. He's even less sympathetic now when the audience should expect more from him.

Edited January 11, 2017 by lemotomato

[EmilyBettFan]

Except Oliver can find different ways to stop a bad guy then just killing him. Why didn't Oliver shoot arrows into "Prometheus' legs? 

Look if they really wanted most of the audience to sympathize with Oliver, they shouldn't have had him go see Susan. They should of had him alone somewhere also.

I really don't think Oliver has that many people on his side feeling sorry for him (audience wise.)

[tangerine95]

12 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I think that's the crux of the problem. We've been debating over what Oliver should have done vs what was shown onscreen, when this whole season has been Oliver doing things as though the last 4 seasons never happened. We're expecting season 5 Oliver, someone that has grown as a person, but the show has regressed him to his season 1 persona. He's killing bad guys indiscriminately, he's dating a woman that is untrustworthy and that hurt his sister (in season 1 he dated Helena even after knowing she shot his mother), he's making unilateral decisions ("I'm breaking Digg out and that's that!") and leaving people out of the loop (Did Thea even know about Human Target wearing Oliver's face to get shot on purpose?). According to the Oliver that the writers want to show this season, that we didn't get a scene of him checking up on Felicity after accidentally killing her boyfriend makes sense. 

Yeah that's it exactly. And I get that they now know for sure they'll get more seasons and need to drag out his development more but I don't think it was necessary to do a total regression with them pretending like the last 4 seasons didn't happen and like all these lessons he's supposedly learning are new despite it already being done in previous seasons. I think there were ways to slow the whole show down without compromising the characters and so much of what they wrote for the past 4 seasons.