Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Chaser]

I'm not sure where the show put anything on Oliver. To me, it was very much on Felicity and her own issues. That is what they explored with Donna (who kind of triggered the true meltdown). Was Felicity unfair with a very patient and loving Oliver? Yeah, but it was a way into her (IMO) very understandable issues. Her abandonment issues and daddy issues were also going to come into play with her relationship with Oliver. It's all very realistic and very human to me.

 

It also helps that I didn't find Felicity 'nasty' or 'bitchy.' I found her tired. And stressed.

 

Could the conversation with Oliver have been more? Yeah. I wish it was, but I was fine with implications and the vibe of the scene.

[AyChihuahua]

Oliver has (in the past) routinely lashed out at Felicity when he's all stressed out about a mission. Hell 210 was all about Oliver lashing out at Felicity for his own bullshit issues.

Totally.  But how does the fact that he's behaved poorly excuse her behaving poorly?

[Password]

I hated that Felicity was mean and I would've preferred an "I'm sorry" from her. But I feel like this is the episode that season 3 really needed. Felicity talks about her fears and Donna helps her, instead of just telling her she loves Oliver.

Brilliant episode.

By now we've all figured out Ray is the root of Felicity's tears right?

(I totally loved him though)

[KenyaJ]

Stop being mean to the people you love the most, Felicity! 

 

See, in that respect, I totally sympathize with her, because I'm only ever mean to the people who are closest to me, the ones who know that's just how I am sometimes and who don't hold it against me. To everyone else, I'm sweet as pie 24/7 because I don't want them seeing that side of me and thinking it's anything other than my very brief bouts of frustration and moodiness. But the people I love the most who know how to brush it off? Yeah, they see that side of my personality a lot. LOL. I related to Felicity so much tonight.

[statsgirl]

Isn't that the norm though? We hurt the ones we love the most?

Yes. It's because they're "safe". It's like why you see little kids having meltdowns when mommy picks them up from daycare, or when they get back to the custodial parent after a weekend with the non-custodial one.. They had to be good and controlled and bottle it all in, and when mommy comes, it's okay to let it out because you know she will still love you even if you're not perfect and good all the time.  You can trust her to still love you.

 

Or what KenyaJ said as I was typing.

[hogwash]

It definitely speaks to how secure she feels in the relationship. Oliver, on the other hand... 

 

EDIT: Poor Oliver. Philandering playboy's first relationship. Felicity has been in love with you for 2+ years. You're both fine. Calm down.

Edited November 12, 2015 by hogwash

[Carrie Ann]

Yeah, I totally get all the stuff behind it, and I'm not arguing that it's OOC (maybe OTT though), and I was fine with the more introspective scenes, but wish they would have toned down the cruelty a bit and amped up the regret, because that would have shown me growth. Instead, I feel like she got over this specific issue re: Oliver and relationships, but didn't really address her specific issue of being really fucking mean to people. Like she might just do this again the next time she's really stressed about something, and that's not cool. Okay, now I swear I'm done! (Good convo, though, peeps!)

[statsgirl]

She may not know that she gets mean when she's stressed, just like it took Oliver a long time to learn that shutting out people and doing it alone because you think you know better (e.g. Diggle s1)  was what he does and isn't a good way to handle things.

 

It's one of those things that's different from the inside than the outside, especially in real life.  She did it to Donna in 3x05 and she's done it now to Oliver. Whether it ever gets addressed depends on whether the show thinks it's important enough.

[Sakura12]

All this talk about Felicity's actions this ep remind me of "Life's Scars" by Ella Wheeler Wilcox.

 

"We flatter those we scarcely know,
We please the fleeting guest;
And deal full many a thoughtless blow,
To those who love us best."

 

Felicity tends to lash out at those she loves when she's upset, Oliver retreats into himself. Or he used to we don't know what new happier Oliver will do, he hasn't been angry yet. But he has matured by sticking around, old Oliver probably would've left and kept going with his I'm not good enough shtick. I know Dig gave him a pep talk but I never once thought Oliver would give up on Felicity. He's in it for the long haul. 

[AyChihuahua]

All this talk about Felicity's actions this ep remind me of "Life's Scars" by Ella Wheeler Wilcox.

 

"We flatter those we scarcely know,

We please the fleeting guest;

And deal full many a thoughtless blow,

To those who love us best."

That is great.  

[AyChihuahua]

Oliver has (in the past) routinely lashed out at Felicity when he's all stressed out about a mission. Hell 210 was all about Oliver lashing out at Felicity for his own bullshit issues.

Totally.  Plus, basically all of S3.  But him having behaved poorly then doesn't excuse her behaving poorly now.  

[Password]

I've always been baffled by the love of "Jealous Oliver". He always snaps at Felicity when he's in a jealous don't know what to do with my feelings mode.

I really hope Felicity checks her snappish ways though. It's still really hurtful.

[AyChihuahua]

See, in that respect, I totally sympathize with her, because I'm only ever mean to the people who are closest to me, the ones who know that's just how I am sometimes and who don't hold it against me. To everyone else, I'm sweet as pie 24/7 because I don't want them seeing that side of me and thinking it's anything other than my very brief bouts of frustration and moodiness. But the people I love the most who know how to brush it off? Yeah, they see that side of my personality a lot. LOL. I related to Felicity so much tonight.

My mom passed away very recently and very unexpectedly (car accident), and I'm all weirded out about it because she lived this philosophy.  She was absolutely as mean as a damn snake to me, but totally nice to her friends and acquaintances, as well as total strangers.  She behaved like Felicity did tonight, x10, pretty much every day.  She was retired and she lived with me, and everything bad that happened, ever, was my fault.  So I have to say, this is not a philosophy I'm okay with (I don't mean that as a dig at you at all).  I think people should try to behave basically decently to more or less everybody, most of the time, but especially the people they love.

Edited November 12, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[wingster55]

I really enjoyed the original team's scene where they praise the women in their lives. 

 

But really...no scene where Sara and Thea discuss the assassination and all the mind control of it all. MASSIVE fail. 

[BkWurm1]

My mom passed away very recently and very unexpectedly (car accident), and I'm all weirded out about it because she lived this philosophy.  She was absolutely as mean as a damn snake to me, but totally nice to her friends and acquaintances, as well as total strangers.  She behaved like Felicity did tonight, x10, pretty much every day.  She was retired and she lived with me, and everything bad that happened, ever, was my fault.  So I have to say, this is not a philosophy I'm okay with (I don't mean that as a dig at you at all).  I think people should try to behave basically decently to more or less everybody, most of the time, but especially the people they love.

I so sorry for you loss and probably the emotional roller coaster you've faced. 

 

I think there is a difference between SOMETIMES lashing out at the ones we love and doing it regularly or as an excuse.  I am happy that this seems to be the first time Felicity and Oliver have even argued (without smiling through it) since Suicidal Tendencies.  Felicity in extreme moments sometimes lashes out but usually she if very fair and if she does, she apologizes.  I think this episode was the perfect storm of exhaustion (she was up for at least 48 hours) worry, guilt and having to pretend nothing is wrong in front of her mom. 

 

If the sniping and passive aggressive attitude was normal, I would be upset, but while stress bringing out that side of her isn't totally OOC, it also isn't common.  She handles "normal" high stress just fine and has frequently responded in a much kinder manner than the situations might call for. 

 

This was the culmination of so many things and I am so pleased that she was able to work past some deep seated fears and that their relationship is now looking stronger than ever.

[looptab]

It also doesn't help Felicity within the narrative that the audience knows way more than she does. We know Oliver was about to propose. She has no idea. So the audience is painfully aware of the IMMENSE power of destruction Felicity has over Oliver. She has no idea.

I think this episode was also a way of showing that Oliver has that same power over Felicity, since the issue was basically, I forget who I am when I'm with you, what if you leave? 

Glad they made this point.

[KenyaJ]

My mom passed away very recently and very unexpectedly (car accident), and I'm all weirded out about it because she lived this philosophy.  She was absolutely as mean as a damn snake to me, but totally nice to her friends and acquaintances, as well as total strangers.  She behaved like Felicity did tonight, x10, pretty much every day.  She was retired and she lived with me, and everything bad that happened, ever, was my fault.  So I have to say, this is not a philosophy I'm okay with (I don't mean that as a dig at you at all).  I think people should try to behave basically decently to more or less everybody, most of the time, but especially the people they love.

 

I didn't take it as a dig at all. No worries.  :-) Your experience with your mom sounds hellish, and I can totally understand how it would color your feelings about Felicity last night. 

 

I'm normally very sweet and loving to my family, which is why it's easy for them to forgive me on the occasions when I get cranky, irritable, and snippy. And the fact that they're so forgiving is why I feel like I can let my guard down around them and show that side of myself to them.  They love me unconditionally, and I see that same thing between Oliver and Felicity. They've seen each other at their absolute worst, but they love and forgive and move on.  

[AyChihuahua]

After thinking about it overnight, while I still don't like how she behaved, I'm not upset about it in a lasting way.  I don't remember her ever being mean in S1 or S2, and only twice in S3 that I can immediately think of, so as long as it doesn't become a regular thing, I'll let it go. 

 

I am still sad for him that he thought she was going to break up with him, though.

Edited November 12, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[statsgirl]

In the vein of "you can't stand in the same stream twice", relationships grow by these little breaks and the mends that come after.often strengthen the relationship if they don't tear it apart.  That's why I don't mind that Oliver was worried she was going to break up with him, because it reminded him how much he does value her, and because he realized that he was going to have to adapt to her too. 

 

Up to now, from the trip to the stay in Ivy Town, it's mostly been Felicity adapting to what Oliver wants.

 

I remember a research paper on marriages where one partner likes to stay up late at night and the other is an early riser.  They have a higher incidence of failing than when both partner is a lark or an owl but if they survive, they tend to be stronger than other marriages.

 

Thinking about the episode reminded me that sometimes my daughter will ask me "Are you okay?" and I'm all why? and she replies that I've been snapping at people.  Totally unconscious but a result of a work stress or expectation I need to meet.  So I hope that Felicity is like that, not realizing that she's snapping because she's too wound up in what's going on. I don't think she'd hurt Oliver deliberately but she might want him to experience a bit of what she's going through.

 

I'm sorry for your loss, AyChihuahua. Sudden is hardest on those left behind.

Edited November 12, 2015 by statsgirl

[Guest]

Olicity were pretty heartbreaking in this episode when you think their issues boiled down to Felicity wondering if she loves Oliver too much to the point that she's losing herself in him and Oliver wondering if she loves him enough. 

 

MY HEART HURTS.

[bijoux]

So I just saw this on Tumblr and talk about missed relationships that could have been mined there. Just the idea of Donna and Moira meeting and being forced to interact is such a deep well. But then there's also the possibility of Moira getting jealous of Oliver developing an easy rapport with Donna, or Felicity getting protective of her mom. 

 

 

 

 

 

Source

[BkWurm1]

In the vein of "you can't stand in the same stream twice", relationships grow by these little breaks and the mends that come after.often strengthen the relationship if they don't tear it apart.  That's why I don't mind that Oliver was worried she was going to break up with him, because it reminded him how much he does value her, and because he realized that he was going to have to adapt to her too. 

 

Up to now, from the trip to the stay in Ivy Town, it's mostly been Felicity adapting to what Oliver wants.

 

 

This reminds me of an interesting viewpoint I ran across after Lost Souls.    There was both shock and indignation that Felicity would complain or imply that maybe she made a mistake leaving her life behind or talk about what she gave up by following Oliver because from their viewpoint, OLIVER only walked away from Starling and moved to Suburbia to give Felicity what she wanted.  That he only did all that FOR her, thus she's being super ungrateful after making him do that to complain about it now.

 

Blew my mind. 

[jay741982]

They are ignorant Felicity never really wanted him to give up Being Arrow at all. I don't ever remember her wanting him to stop being Arrow either

[lemotomato]

This reminds me of an interesting viewpoint I ran across after Lost Souls.    There was both shock and indignation that Felicity would complain or imply that maybe she made a mistake leaving her life behind or talk about what she gave up by following Oliver because from their viewpoint, OLIVER only walked away from Starling and moved to Suburbia to give Felicity what she wanted.  That he only did all that FOR her, thus she's being super ungrateful after making him do that to complain about it now.

 

Blew my mind. 

But but 401 clearly established that she didn't want to live in suburbia doing nothing. That's what Oliver wanted. And a big reason why he agreed to stay in Star City was because she wanted them to go back to helping people again. 

[statsgirl]

It amuses me that people who I presume are young want Felicity to act like a 50s housewife.

 

Sometimes I wonder what show they're watching.

[Chaser]

Someone pointed out on Tumblr that Felicity went to Oliver's side of the bed and Oliver went to Felicity's chair. They were both trying to understand so they went to each other's places.

 

Here's my heart. I don't need it.

[BkWurm1]

Someone pointed out on Tumblr that Felicity went to Oliver's side of the bed and Oliver went to Felicity's chair. They were both trying to understand so they went to each other's places.

 

Here's my heart. I don't need it.

With that particular director, I don't think it was a coincidence.  :) 

[bijoux]

Someone pointed out on Tumblr that Felicity went to Oliver's side of the bed and Oliver went to Felicity's chair. They were both trying to understand so they went to each other's places.

 

Here's my heart. I don't need it.

 

Aw. I saw the thing about the bed but the chair just tips it over the edge for me. Space. Yeah, right. I don't even blame Felicity for being scared of the intensity of their feelings, stupid dopes in love.

 

 

 

 

 

Source

Edited November 13, 2015 by bijoux

[looptab]

This reminds me of an interesting viewpoint I ran across after Lost Souls.    There was both shock and indignation that Felicity would complain or imply that maybe she made a mistake leaving her life behind or talk about what she gave up by following Oliver because from their viewpoint, OLIVER only walked away from Starling and moved to Suburbia to give Felicity what she wanted.  That he only did all that FOR her, thus she's being super ungrateful after making him do that to complain about it now.

 

Blew my mind. 

That's something that puzzles me as well, because the show has NEVER made a point of showing Felicity demanding that Oliver left the heroing. She never gave him ultimatums such "Me or the Arrow", it was Oliver himself who did it. Like, I understand that some people may zone out during Olicity scenes, the same way I zone out during others, but that was the whole point of the damn season. Yet, funnily enough, for all the complaints that there was too much relationship drama, it seems the point wasn't made clearly enough. I guess it's just disattention, since the usual path in these kind of stories is the woman demanding the man to make a choice between what's standing in the way of the relationship and the relationship, so people must have just assumed it was the same here. Except, in this case, what was standing in the way of the relationship was OLIVER. 

 

I wouldn't say that the Arrow writers are some of the best writers ever, because they are not, but I guess I understand now why sometimes they don't even make an effort. It's not worth it, if the audience will end up preferring and/or interpreting as the most basic storylines.

 

On this train of thought, did you guys feel that Felicity's issues came out of nowhere, that they were not justified or legitimate?

Personally I think it made perfect sense for her to have those fears, and also that we didn't seem to have an inkling she might feel like that until this episode. Often you don't realize you have an issue until you reach a breaking point and it all dawns on you. So I have no issue with Felicity's side of things. I wish Oliver's side were clearer, if I have to nitpick about something. Like, I'm not so sure I got the link between Felicity telling him she was losing herself and him beating himself up because he sucks at computers, while Ray is an inventor. So maybe I'm a superficial viewer in need of simpler storylines, too, hahah.

[Genki]

On this train of thought, did you guys feel that Felicity's issues came out of nowhere, that they were not justified or legitimate?

Personally I think it made perfect sense for her to have those fears, and also that we didn't seem to have an inkling she might feel like that until this episode. Often you don't realize you have an issue until you reach a breaking point and it all dawns on you. So I have no issue with Felicity's side of things. I wish Oliver's side were clearer, if I have to nitpick about something. Like, I'm not so sure I got the link between Felicity telling him she was losing herself and him beating himself up because he sucks at computers, while Ray is an inventor. So maybe I'm a superficial viewer in need of simpler storylines, too, hahah.

 

Felicity's issues did surprise me, and now that I have processed (and take the Ray of it all out of the equation) I think it is legitimate worry, for her to have, but not for her and Oliver as a couple. If this leads to more openness between them, that is great, too!! 

 

I think Oliver still doesn't believe he is good enough for Felicity, he knows that she believe in the mission and him as a hero, but as a person, with his past, he has some insecurities. Felicity was pushing him away by honing in on his lack of qualifications and he knows that he doesn't relate Felicity on a tech-y/science-y level. Also I don't think he knows quite what happened between Ray and Felicity when they broke up. He just know he dreams came true in Nada Parbat and after the season finale, he did not want to question or jinx the good fortune of Felicity deciding to be with him.

 

Also seeing her frantic about Ray, similar to the time  in 3.19 where he was out in the field and they were dating, surely brings out Oliver's jealousy which trigger his insecurity. Luckily he handled it in a mature way. And Diggle set his head straight.

[Ceylon5]

Also, bear in mind that all Felicity's other boyfriends have been guys with similar interests to hers (Cooper, Barry and Ray).  Oliver is the odd one out and after he found out that she'd actually been seriously bored in Ivy Town and had been secretly helping the team on the side, I think it's fair enough for him to question whether he's "enough" for her.  He's probably wondering whether she would have been bored in that life if her boyfriend had been someone she could spend all day hacking with or talking about stuff she's interested in with.  He probably figures that if Felicity and one of her exes had been left to their own devices together for a few months, they would have ended up inventing something amazing or started up a tech company or some such, while all he did was learn to cook great soufflés while Felicity quietly died of boredom in the background.

 

Hopefully the lesson he's learned from this is that isolating Felicity from the things in her life that he can't give her (people she can talk tech with and work that gives her a sense of purpose and fulfilment) isn't a smart idea.  Because at the end of the day, being "enough" for her all on his own isn't healthy or necessary.  He's enough in the parts of her life where he needs to be enough; being her everything is exactly what she doesn't want, and rightly so.

[dtissagirl]

I actually really love the role reversal thing that they keep doing with Oliver and Felicity. It's legit one of the reasons I'm so into the pairing. Oliver's the one whose dream life is being a '50s housewife -- a monotone life in suburbia with Felicity is enough for Oliver, because she IS enough for him.

 

And... while it's perfectly okay for Oliver to feel like that, it's also okay that Felicity needs more than a relationship to feel like she's living her life to the fullest. Oliver kinda doesn't know what he wants to be when he grows up, really. Hopefully the point of becoming Green Arrow + the politics thing is for him to realize that he does have a greater purpose. And maybe  realizing that being in a relationship and having responsibilities isn't an either/or game.

 

Otoh, here's Felicity, who's always known what she's good at, and who found a life-changing purpose in using her skills to help others. And I get why she might have been terrified of telling Oliver any of this. How do you tell someone who thinks you're all they need in life that you don't share that feeling?

 

But this episode accomplished this in the end, even if the ways Felicity made her feelings known weren't the greatest.

Edited November 13, 2015 by dtissagirl

[kismet]

My mom passed away very recently and very unexpectedly (car accident), and I'm all weirded out about it because she lived this philosophy.  She was absolutely as mean as a damn snake to me, but totally nice to her friends and acquaintances, as well as total strangers.  She behaved like Felicity did tonight, x10, pretty much every day.  She was retired and she lived with me, and everything bad that happened, ever, was my fault.  So I have to say, this is not a philosophy I'm okay with (I don't mean that as a dig at you at all).  I think people should try to behave basically decently to more or less everybody, most of the time, but especially the people they love.

Sorry for your loss! Sudden death can be so hard. It leaves so much unsaid. So much left unfinished. It's heartbreaking. :(

I can understand your viewpoint. Everyone deserves to be treated decently. I also agree with others that there is a difference between it being a chronic pattern or just an occasional outburst.

[kismet]

That's something that puzzles me as well, because the show has NEVER made a point of showing Felicity demanding that Oliver left the heroing. She never gave him ultimatums such "Me or the Arrow", it was Oliver himself who did it. Like, I understand that some people may zone out during Olicity scenes, the same way I zone out during others, but that was the whole point of the damn season. Yet, funnily enough, for all the complaints that there was too much relationship drama, it seems the point wasn't made clearly enough. I guess it's just disattention, since the usual path in these kind of stories is the woman demanding the man to make a choice between what's standing in the way of the relationship and the relationship, so people must have just assumed it was the same here. Except, in this case, what was standing in the way of the relationship was OLIVER.

I wouldn't say that the Arrow writers are some of the best writers ever, because they are not, but I guess I understand now why sometimes they don't even make an effort. It's not worth it, if the audience will end up preferring and/or interpreting as the most basic storylines.

On this train of thought, did you guys feel that Felicity's issues came out of nowhere, that they were not justified or legitimate?

Personally I think it made perfect sense for her to have those fears, and also that we didn't seem to have an inkling she might feel like that until this episode. Often you don't realize you have an issue until you reach a breaking point and it all dawns on you. So I have no issue with Felicity's side of things. I wish Oliver's side were clearer, if I have to nitpick about something. Like, I'm not so sure I got the link between Felicity telling him she was losing herself and him beating himself up because he sucks at computers, while Ray is an inventor. So maybe I'm a superficial viewer in need of simpler storylines, too, hahah.

Yea, it was always OQ that was forcing the choice and standing in the way of their relationship. Sometimes I love the craftiness of the writers because sometimes they adhere to the typical hero's journey, relationship tropes and stereotypical gender roles. And then other times they sublimate them and twist them all around. Most of the time it makes for a better show and characters. I love how they have made the O/F relationship have so many ideas & elements from these different thematic tools. But give it their own unique voice & twist. It really works and makes the relationship feel very human.

Back to your question. Do I think FS issues came out of nowhere? No. Do I think the show's handling of them came out of nowhere? Yes. I saw the seeds for this fight in 401 & 402. I've always felt that FS was written in a way and EBR acted the character in a way that something was keeping her from being all in, that she was throwing up walls or subconsciously doing things that showed insecurity in the relationship. I couldn't pinpoint what it was. But now it makes sense, the girl was afraid to lose herself in the relationship which explains some of her behaviors.

That all said, it was subtle and one had to be looking for red flags. I feel like the show was not explicit until 406 that problems have been festering in FS that were only exacerbated by the stress & guilt of RP. And I feel like the RP situation was more than just him missing. Rather some of it might still be unresolved confusion & guilt from early parts of s3. The heart and the mind are very complex places that often war with each other. FS has been in an internal struggle with them over OQ for years. RP has always been a catalyst and casualty of this battle. So it makes sense to me that it would all come to the surface in the way that it did.

I also feel like OQs insecurities have been festering since 401, but he's been too scared to address them. He also has not had people he could talk to about it. He probably started the friendship with DS as a way to get closer to FS. To better understand her. He probably has been questioning why she chose him when she seemed so eager to be back in SC and on TA. It would make me wonder if i was really enough for someone if they wanted so badly fo me to get back to being my alter ego. But back to MS, I can also see how if he mentioned FS being overstressed how that could have innocently lead to the invite. It was bad timing, but in some ways it was also what FS needed - even if she didn't realize it.

In the end, a lot of mistakes they made were done out of love. And that happens in relationships, especially new ones that had a unique start like theirs. It's kinda touching that there issues amount to do I live the other one too much and am I enough for them. I also really appreciated how the writers let them talk about it and be mature in the relationship. For people as emotionally guarded as O&F are, that is a big step for them. Also for a TV show that is a big step to let a couple resolve an issue and not profit off the drama.

Edited November 13, 2015 by kismet

[looptab]

Yeah, I do understand where Oliver insecurities stem from. I guess I didn't quite get the jump from what Felicity told him, to him reflecting upon them. Could be that he might as well do it, since he was worrying she might end things already.

[apinknightmare]

I think maybe it had something to do with him seeing her so frantic to get to Ray, and she repeatedly mentioned the fact that he couldn't help her because he didn't know how to code or build the equipment they needed. I think it was a culmination of things leading up to Felicity telling him that she regretted leaving everything to be with him, and he wondered why she did that to begin with since he wasn't as smart/capable with the tech stuff as her. He probably wondered what exactly he had to offer.

Edited November 13, 2015 by apinknightmare

[kismet]

Yeah, I do understand where Oliver insecurities stem from. I guess I didn't quite get the jump from what Felicity told him, to him reflecting upon them. Could be that he might as well do it, since he was worrying she might end things already.

I can understand that. The jump was kinda quick if you weren't looking for it. I was probably looking for it. I also think it was a byproduct of the writing. The writers have kept O/F in the background for most of the episodes (which is great for me, because it provides some protection from the writers need to over-plotify and over-dramatize for reasons & therefore keeps the relationship safe). But in doing that they haven't really given time to show some of the little pieces that were starting to build up in their doubts closets. OQ has been questioning since 301 if he is the right man for FS (probably even before then). FS has been questioning when OQ would change his mind again. The losing myself in him comment, seemed a little overdramatic, but it works for how it was explored during her conversation with her mother. The seeds of doubt about some aspects of their relationship were there in the subtext, but not front and center in the narrative.

 

So when she started to act all neurotic and manic over RP, I could see how that brought up every little insecurity he has been having since s3. RP was who she chose when she said she wanted more out of life in s3. Yes, she dumped RP in 320 and then told OQ she loves him. But I wonder if they ever really talked about what happened. Clearly RP cared so much for FS that he left her his entire company. So OQ knows there was something serious there, but between traveling & sexy times, I doubt they had a conversation about their past relationships. In 401 with her secret about TArrowless & not telling him she was so unhappy about living in the suburbs I think she planted the seeds of doubt that had filled many of his thoughts for over a year. I have always said the OQ never felt he was deserving of love, he has come leaps and bound out of that unhealthy mindset (thx goodness!). But it did not surprise me at the 1st major challenge to their relationship he would default to it must be that I'm not worthy enough. It also didn't help that she threw some pretty truthful (albeit mean) hits to his psyche.

[looptab]

Yes, @apinknightmare, I think you're right. He probably also started wondering if she  regretted not just losing herself, but regretted losing herself to him specifically.

Thanks! Sometimes I get so stuck on the dialogues - especially when it seems they get in things just for the sake of it, (for example  in the crossover, with  Baby Mama starting to talk about Oliver's mother out of nowhere). 

Edited November 13, 2015 by looptab

[Password]

I've actually given thought to whether or not Oliver thinks they're ready for marriage. First he finds out that the LIFE he was thoroughly enjoying made Felicity so bored she contemplated gouging her eyes out. Then she says she gets lost in him and she's not that girl who gives everything of herself to a guy.

Dude must be thinking she'd say no.

(*snort* sorry for the subject change. Oliver's kicked puppy face won't leave my retinas)

[statsgirl]

To be fair, this problem proved that they're not ready for marriage. They don't trust in each other enough yet. And I don't think Oliver knows Felicity well enough yet either. He didn't know she was bored in Ivy Town and he didn't know why she picked him.  He spent so many years pushing her away, he didn't get to know her

.Back to your question. Do I think FS issues came out of nowhere? No. Do I think the show's handling of them came out of nowhere? Yes. I saw the seeds for this fight in 401 & 402. I've always felt that FS was written in a way and EBR acted the character in a way that something was keeping her from being all in, that she was throwing up walls or subconsciously doing things that showed insecurity in the relationship. I couldn't pinpoint what it was. But now it makes sense, the girl was afraid to lose herself in the relationship which explains some of her behaviors.

This show has a spotty track record when it comes to handling internal issues like this. Sometimes it does them really well, as it did here, and at other times it doesn't seem to realize what it's doing wrong (e.g. the Laurel/Sara relationship).  So when it does see the issues and handles them well, it's like getting a present.

[Cerulean Blue]

Funnily enough, this was the first episode where I felt that Oliver and Felicity showed they were ready for marriage. Prior to this, they were in the blissful new relationship bubble (during their trip around the world), and in the first couple of episodes of the season it felt a little like they were in a kind of "don't rock the boat" mentality where they were almost unwilling to let their true feelings be known to each other (that Oliver was actually upset that Felicity lied about working with the team and wasn't open with her about her feelings about their new life, that Felicity was bored in the suburbs).

 

But in this one, all that messiness came out, and rather than it turning into a huge drama or resentment, they both just worked through it. Sure, they don't know everything about each other, but I don't think that's necessarily the best determination of whether they're ready for marriage.

 

Because what they did show--that they're willing to confront each other with these big, scary emotions and then work together and forgive each other to deal with them--is basically a great foundation for the whole getting married thing. Oliver didn't run when Felicity confessed her doubts, he gave her the space she needed. Felicity didn't just freeze him out (though that's clearly her inclination), she opened up and shared her doubts with him. Sure they have doubts and the whole process was a little messy, but they worked through it and came out stronger on the other side.

[kismet]

This show has a spotty track record when it comes to handling internal issues like this. Sometimes it does them really well, as it did here, and at other times it doesn't seem to realize what it's doing wrong (e.g. the Laurel/Sara relationship).  So when it does see the issues and handles them well, it's like getting a present.

I believe that has more to do with them having no idea what to do with LL ever. I think I understood SL's POV as little as it was shown and anticipate that it will be handled in LoT.

 

I feel like they generally do a decent job with most internal struggles for as much as a CW action based show can do, with exception of s3 which ironically was the identity theme and it struggled the most. Could they do better? Absolutely! I feel like they are good with one POV but have trouble sometimes showing the alternative POV in the relationship. For example we get a good understanding of OQ, but lacked FS for so long. But overall, I understand most of the character's internal struggles, or at least that there is a struggle going on that might be revealed later.

[Morrigan2575]

Funnily enough, this was the first episode where I felt that Oliver and Felicity showed they were ready for marriage. Prior to this, they were in the blissful new relationship bubble (during their trip around the world), and in the first couple of episodes of the season it felt a little like they were in a kind of "don't rock the boat" mentality where they were almost unwilling to let their true feelings be known to each other (that Oliver was actually upset that Felicity lied about working with the team and wasn't open with her about her feelings about their new life, that Felicity was bored in the suburbs).

But in this one, all that messiness came out, and rather than it turning into a huge drama or resentment, they both just worked through it. Sure, they don't know everything about each other, but I don't think that's necessarily the best determination of whether they're ready for marriage.

Because what they did show--that they're willing to confront each other with these big, scary emotions and then work together and forgive each other to deal with them--is basically a great foundation for the whole getting married thing. Oliver didn't run when Felicity confessed her doubts, he gave her the space she needed. Felicity didn't just freeze him out (though that's clearly her inclination), she opened up and shared her doubts with him. Sure they have doubts and the whole process was a little messy, but they worked through it and came out stronger on the other side.

I agree, I think you nailed why the while relationship/episode worked for me. The characters acted like adults in a relationship who had some buried issues/fears and then aired everything out both with confidants and then later with each other.

[dtissagirl]

All of it without their issues compromising the mission. That part was my favorite, really.

 

And it could easily have, because the writing was using Palmer as the device to bring forth the relationship drama, but it didn't.

 

I think it worked particularly well with the fact that the two main action sequences reminded me A LOT of how Leverage did their spy/infiltrating stuff. O/F being at odds made the Kord scene much more fun because of the bickering over comms, and then later, the tension between them built up into the actual rescue mission. That was pretty aces.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Starting to read the roundtable discussion by Fangirlish on episode 4.06 and one of them mentioned that Oliver "has always been afraid he's not good enough for Felicity." I'm trying to think back and I can't seem to come up with scenes that illustrate this. I feel like this is a fanfic thing but not really a show thing. Am I missing something? 

[tv echo]

As far as I can recall, 406 was the first episode where Oliver showed any insecurity as to his worth in regards to Felicity.

[looptab]

There was the 'you deserve someone better' in 317, when he was noting that Ray would turn out to be just like him. Other than that I can't recall anything.

[kismet]

Starting to read the roundtable discussion by Fangirlish on episode 4.06 and one of them mentioned that Oliver "has always been afraid he's not good enough for Felicity." I'm trying to think back and I can't seem to come up with scenes that illustrate this. I feel like this is a fanfic thing but not really a show thing. Am I missing something? 

I didn't start reading fanfic until the summer. So all of my understanding of OQ not feeling worthy of FS & her love. As well as not being good enough for FS comes from the show. I originially saw hints of it in s2. His conversation with Isabel I felt was enlightening. I also think his conversation with FS in 206 "because of the life I lead speech" and the way he handled answering her question. It also was in some of his s2 behaviors around her. It wasn't as apparent, but there were tidbits here and there.

 

I feel like it was implied in his entire s3 refusal to be in a relationship with her. There were subtle hints throughout most of the episodes, I would have to watch it again to find specifics, specifics - but I can't rewatch that season again - it's just too hard please don't make me go there again. :( 307 had some good facial moments in his "do what you want" response to RPs dinner, as well as his speech to Cupid and his conversation with Dig "I made a decision". He made a decision based upon the evidence, and the evidence in his mind seems to be that he believes FS is better off living his life without him. Would have have said/believed something different if he had not seen R/F kissing, we'll never know. But the fact is that he saw them kissing and never once tried to make a case for himself.

 

317 was a good episode as others mentioned that showed that he truly believed that RP was the better option until he realized a lot of overlap in their behaviors. Their fight was about OQ insecurities. FS sorta knew that which is why she hit below the belt (because that is her stressed response as we saw more in 406) when she accused him of not wanting to be a happy human being and be with her. It's just me speculation, but I wonder if part of his motivating factor to become the GA in 401 was because he realized it was so important to FS. When given the opportunity to find happiness, she chose to be with someone who's mission it was to save the city. In Ivy Town, he was not saving the city. So without saving the city and being a hero, is he still enough for FS? Because clearly OQ just being OQ was not enough for her otherwise she would not have become so bored in IvyTown or at least he would have felt she could have explained her boredom to him. But she kept her fear and her concerns about him and her TArrowless work a secret for a reason. He wasn't mad at her, but I think it highlight seeds of doubt.

 

He wanted her to be happy, but he felt he was not able to make her happy so he took himself out of the equation in s3. He did it without her consent in many ways, but even when she explicitly told him in 317 that him being in her life made her happy. He still took himself out of the equation a few episodes later. If he had felt he could have been Oliver Queen and be with her he would have. If he felt he could have made her happy, he would have been with her. If he felt he was good enough to be with her, he wouldn't not have gone to his death twice without talking to her about it. The first time he went to his death he almost didn't tell her he loved her, until she asked. The second time in NP, he made sure to tell her that he wanted her to live her life. Therefore implying that without him, she could still have a complete and happy life. That the only way he would survive is to know "that she was out there living her life happy". He said this while knowing that he may not ever be able to make it back to her. Even the refusal to say good-bye was more for her than it was for him.

 

He chose the Arrow in s1-3, because it was easier for him to be that person. And it is easier to say that person can't be with FS because it's detached from who & what OQ wants. Whenever OQ choose himself in previous seasons, bad things could happen that would then become part of his ongoing guilt trip. It's easier to say that the City & the mission are the priority to the Arrow, because then he doesn't have to answer to the demands of OQ. In s4, OQ has demonstrated that FS is the priority to OQ. What she wants and needs is now part of what he wants & needs. OQ has somehow integrated his identities and now that integrated OQ wants FS and everything she is and represents. But in 406, she said that she does not know if she wants what OQ offers and RP helped trigger this great revelation, so of course it brought to the surface his insecurities.

Edited November 15, 2015 by kismet

[Morrigan2575]

I've always thought Oliver didn’t think he was good enough for Felicity and that's based on the show, not fanfic. Mostly, I've always thought that both Sara and Oliver were so disgusted by what they had done and the type of people that they've become that they didn't think they deserved love or forgiveness. I know Sara was so ashamed that she'd rather her family think she was dead than have them see what/who she had become now. It was never overtly referenced in text that Oliver felt the same way but, I certainly think it was implied.

Now, if we're talking just about intelligence or computer smarts/things in common no, that's never been expressed before. However, I can see it as just the latest symptom of Oliver's low self worth

[hogwash]

I don't think "I'm not good enough" really jives with Felicity or any of his past romantic declarations/relationships either. His objections are usually tied to being the Hood/Arrow/etc. He thinks that being the vigilante means certain death (I'm still so freaking pissed S03 did nothing with this. This has been his and Team Arrow's fear/expectation for 2 seasons and you give me nothing??) and goes for romantic relationships that don't interfere with or distract him from his death wish/vigilante mission.

 

When he decides he can be with Laurel, the first thing he does is tell Felicity and Diggle that he's retiring. This was back when he (and the show) were still deluded enough to think Laurel was the love of his life and before OTA actually stops the Undertaking, the reason he became a vigilante and his ultimate mission. He does the same thing with Felicity. Both times he has Tommy and Diggle (two men he sees as great people and whose judgment he trusts absolutely) telling him he's a garbage person. But that doesn't stop him.

 

With Laurel, Tommy was clearly the better guy and the "you boinked my sister to get out of getting an apartment with me" thing was still pretty fresh (it will ALWAYS be fresh, person who wrote that garbage backstory). With Felicity, Oliver was a garbage person for pretty much the entirety of S03. Even that doesn't stop him from really trying to be with either of them. But only AFTER he decides to retire.

Edited November 15, 2015 by hogwash