Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[kes0704]

I agree completely. I can't wrap my mind around the idea that there was a big debate about it.

There was nothing organic about the R/F relationship, and Felicity couldn't even tell Ray she loved him. But sure, let's reverse the whole thing so that you end up with Oliver being all in because he is so in love with Felicity...and she is sort of meh about him.

In my mind it would completely undermine 3 seasons worth of O/F development, both as friends and something more, and I don't see how Felicity could have stayed on TA after that, unless Oliver is way more accepting than I would be.

[hogwash]

All this for Ray Palmer. I'll never understand it. It's such a weird disconnect. 

[NumberCruncher]

It's because the entire DC empire worships at the altar of Brandon Routh so they must make Ray Palmer as the dashing hero happen--even if it means shoving him at us in any way they can and inserting him where he's clearly not working.

Edited November 6, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[hogwash]

How would that have worked exactly? Would they keep the stuff about Oliver deliriously happy on their vacation and thinking about proposing while Felicity's secretly pining for Tiny Tim? Really?? Even the diehard Felicity fans who spent most of S03 fanwanking out the wazoo would call it quits.

 

Seriously? Him?? I just don't get why he's worth it. I feel bad cause I do like Brandon Routh. But, yeah.

[Lady Calypso]

From the episode thread:

 

Yeah, no, the Quentin part I totally agree with since he seems to have always hated Oliver, but the Laurel part I understood since Thea has swung from regarding her as a big sister and being irritated that she had moved on from her big brother with his best friend. Moira seemed to like Laurel alright in the flashbacks they showed, and even said she was good for Oliver, so I buy the Laurel-Queen connection. Quentin? Nah. By long history together, I basically meant Laurel (and Sara?) and the Queens. I should have clarified.

 

You know, I get that Laurel does have a connection with the Queens to some capacity, but I think a lot of it, for a long time, was just around Oliver. I think if we separate what we've seen during the series vs the flashbacks of Oliver and Laurel, it's hard to tell if Laurel's history with the family was more positive than negative or neutral. I rewatched season 1 just last month, so I guess it helps but I don't get the feeling that Laurel was more than a casual girlfriend that came over. I don't know if there was ever a bond with Laurel and Moira. Laurel and Thea, I actually do buy more because of Thea's arc of working at CNRI with Laurel. Thea was twelve when Oliver went on the Gambit, but we've never seen her and Laurel's scenes in flashback (mostly because they'd probably have to hire a younger actress to play twelve year old Thea, as not even Willa could pass for a tween). We have only seen their relationship in season 1. And honestly, I wouldn't even call it a long history. Oliver and Laurel knew each other for a while, sure. We can establish Laurel's long history with Oliver.

 

But for Moira and Thea? I know that Laurel has known the Queen family for years (I actually just looked it up and didn't realize, or forgot, that they've known each other for over 20 years apparently). But Moira's only had one flashback scene with Laurel and she was polite with her, at best. From what I remember from that flashback episode (the one where Oliver looked like a complete dick, but Laurel did too), Moira didn't seem to love Laurel, but I guess she didn't hate her as well. Thea was too young to really have a strong relationship and in my opinion, I don't get the impression that Thea and Laurel were close until after Oliver came back. Laurel may have liked Thea, yes, but it's hard to say what their relationship was, especially with the big age gap. Thea has said that she felt alone after Oliver was presumed dead, which means that Laurel wasn't there for her. Sure, Laurel was pissed about Oliver and Sara and she was rightfully allowed to be, but it makes it seem like Laurel ignored Thea for those five years, or didn't bother to try with her. I know it wouldn't have been her responsibility, but seeing as Laurel's known Thea for years (probably since she was born), you'd think she would put aside her feelings at that time (she had five years to) and keep an eye on Thea. Tommy seemed to keep an eye on her.

 

Thea/Laurel's relationship was at its best in season 1. It was the only time I've truly bought it, mostly because they actually had a strong arc going and it felt realistic. Laurel wanting to help Thea after the Vertigo incident was the first time I felt like Laurel was doing something for another person not to help herself in some way. She had nothing to gain by getting her dad to help Thea, and by offering her a job for her community service. Plus, their relationship was genuine then. It didn't feel like Laurel was doing it for Oliver (which is ironic, seeing as Lauriver was OTP back then). Thea wasn't falling over Laurel (she broke the news about Laurel and Tommy, after all) but she didn't ignore her or anything.

 

But after season 1? Either the show forgot about these two (and had Laurel grow more selfish) or they didn't know how to write them anymore. And now, even this season, it doesn't feel natural like season 1. Their relationship feels forced. Thea living with Laurel feels forced, because of Oliver being away and Thea not being close with anyone else now that Roy's also gone (plus Thea not wanting to live at the apartment). Laurel hasn't had genuine scenes with Thea without it making it look like she has ulterior motives (going to Nanda Parbat was for her sister, not for Thea). So, until I get genuine one-on-one scenes with Thea/Laurel that are not about Oliver, or about selfishness, then I cannot buy this sisterly relationship that they could have had if not for the fact of Thea explaining that she had no-one in those five years. 

[Sakura12]

I'm more interested in what Sara and Thea's relationship was like. At Sara's welcome back from the dead party. Thea was really happy to see her and introduce her to her friends. Sara's slightly closer to Thea in age than Laurel. 

 

In the past the Queen's and Lance's may have been close. But as of now Sara's the only Lance that has any connection to Oliver (with the island) and now Thea (with the Lazarus Pit). 

[dtissagirl]

I just find it hilarious how the show keeps trying to make a connection between the Lances and the Queens happen *now* by mentioning stuff that happened so long ago. Oliver dated Laurel eight years ago. That time Tommy watched them screwing was three years ago. Laurel gave Thea the CNRI job three years ago. It's been YEARS.

It's the same kind of weird crap they pulled back in S1 by having Laurel and Tommy react to Oliver coming back as if he had been missing for a week rather than five years.

[lemotomato]

It's as thought TPTB realized that people were laughing in disbelief at the random "I know you to your boooooones" declarations by Laurel, so they made Thea retcon recall their whole history. 

[Chaser]

I would love to hear the thought process behind the Oliver and Laurel history. It's a jumbled mess of contradiction.

 

He is a serial cheater but he is in love with Laurel.

 

He and Laurel and Tommy were all BFFs. But Oliver and Tommy treated Laurel like jerks.

 

I don't get it.  

[SmallScreenDiva]

I just find it hilarious how the show keeps trying to make a connection between the Lances and the Queens happen *now* by mentioning stuff that happened so long ago. Oliver dated Laurel eight years ago. That time Tommy watched them screwing was three years ago. Laurel gave Thea the CNRI job three years ago. It's been YEARS.

It's the same kind of weird crap they pulled back in S1 by having Laurel and Tommy react to Oliver coming back as if he had been missing for a week rather than five years.

 

It's also pretty indicative of Laurel's place in Oliver's life now that that all Thea could list as reasons for not cutting her loose happened years ago. The writers couldn't find a reason NOW to keep LL as Oliver's friend. Thea could at least have said something about Laurel being part of the team, but nothing. For the first time since we saw that damned graveyard in the premiere, I'm starting to wonder, nay, hope that Laurel will be in that grave. 

[Primal Slayer]

When it comes to Oliver loving Laurel in the past, to quote Katies former character, Ella Simms "I love love, just hate monogamy"  the way I look at it.

[lemotomato]

I would love to hear the thought process behind the Oliver and Laurel history. It's a jumbled mess of contradiction.

 

He is a serial cheater but he is in love with Laurel.

 

Because comics.

 

Seriously, though. From what i understand, Oliver in the comics cheated on Dinah, and no one seemed to be bothered by it. Not the OMG, GA/BC OTP!!! comic readers, and not Dinah the character, who, as we are often reminded, married Oliver in the comics. So I guess the show producers didn't think that TV audience would care either, and they went with that as their history.

Edited November 6, 2015 by lemotomato

[Primal Slayer]

Because comics.

 

Seriously, though. From what i understand, Oliver in the comics cheated on Dinah multiple times, and no one seemed to be bothered by it. Not the OMG, GA/BC OTP!!! comic readers, and not Dinah the character, who, as we are often reminded, married Oliver in the comics. So I guess the show producers didn't think that TV audience would care either, and they went with that as their history.

Except Oliver never cheated on her with family. And the characters had a deeper bond which the writers failed to show.  

[lemotomato]

Except Oliver never cheated on her with family. And the characters had a deeper bond which the writers failed to show.

I don't know how deep of a bond a couple needs to forgive multiple instances of cheating. But I'm more of a realist than a romantic.

[Primal Slayer]

I don't know how deep of a bond a couple needs to forgive multiple instances of cheating. But I'm more of a realist than a romantic.

He didn't cheat on her like a dog in heat like Arrows version of the character. But after she found him cheating, she left him, he died, he came back and the two rekindled their relationship, get married, get divorced then rebooted. 

[lemotomato]

He didn't cheat on her like a dog in heat like Arrows version of the character. But after she found him cheating, she left him, he died, he came back and the two rekindled their relationship, get married, get divorced then rebooted. 

But show!Oliver cheated on Laurel multiple times and she kept taking him back. So even if the writers had given them the deeper bond that existed in comics, I still wouldn't be able to understand their relationship or root for them to get together.

[Primal Slayer]

I think they could've made it work if they hadn't had Oliver pine after Laurel in S1 while sleeping with other women.  The writers seemed to have wanted the 5 years to sort of reboot their romance but they failed of course.

[AyChihuahua]

But show!Oliver cheated on Laurel multiple times and she kept taking him back. So even if the writers had given them the deeper bond that existed in comics, I still wouldn't be able to understand their relationship or root for them to get together.

How would that work?  We have such a deep bond that when I bang the waitress/your friend/my friend/my secretary/the hot chick from the gym I'm really thinking about you and our bond?  

[lemotomato]

How would that work?  We have such a deep bond that when I bang the waitress/your friend/my friend/my secretary/the hot chick from the gym I'm really thinking about you and our bond?  

You know, as much as I hated Raylicity, I'm very glad they had Felicity explicitly rejecting Oliver as a romantic option before she started dating Ray, precisely so she wouldn't be in this kind of scenario. Even though deep down she still loved Oliver, she wasn't pining for him when she was involved with someone else. 

Edited November 6, 2015 by lemotomato

[bijoux]

I would love to hear the thought process behind the Oliver and Laurel history. It's a jumbled mess of contradiction.

 

He is a serial cheater but he is in love with Laurel.

 

He and Laurel and Tommy were all BFFs. But Oliver and Tommy treated Laurel like jerks.

 

When do you perceive Tommy treating Laurel as a jerk, simply by association of presumably being on Ollie's side during the cheating or did you see it in other instances?

 

Ollie and Laurel, and Oliver and Laurel were always messy from every point of view. I've been rewatching the series from the beginning for a week or two and my "favorite" is definitely The Undertaking from season 1. In which present day Oliver Laurel he's always only wanted her to be happy. Always. And then Ollie goes on the sex cruise with Sara that same episode. With the added touch of texting her to circle around the block when Laurel shows up. Klassy. But then Sara was as well since she didn't hightail it to two states over after receiving that message. If that's not code red, I don't knkow what is.

 

Going over the earlier episodes and seasons brings up other questions as well. I've gone on record with thinking that Ollie was a completely useless mass of flesh. But he's also been proven to have a streak of loyalty running through all the dumbassery. He was loyal to his family, I have to imagine to Tommy as well from the way Tommy tracked his email down to Hong Kong two years after the Gambit. And while him being loyal to Shado and Slade on the island can be attributed to him transforming into Oliver on the island, he was tortured for refusing to hand over Yao Fei in the fifth episode. A man who shot him on sight and spoke Chinese to him for a few weeks. He did not really have time to transform that much then and hadn't really had the time to develop that much of a bond with the man. How does that even begin to gel with his treatment of Laurel and their relationship? Especially presuming that they were friends before starting to date, as I at least have. It's all very puzzling. 

[Guest]

I'm more interested in what Sara and Thea's relationship was like. At Sara's welcome back from the dead party. Thea was really happy to see her and introduce her to her friends. Sara's slightly closer to Thea in age than Laurel. 

 

If Sara and Thea don't get a moment in 406, I will call such bullshit because omg, Thea killed her. I know she wasn't responsible but they still need to have some kind of discussion. It would be ridiculous if they don't.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Guest

[kismet]

But after season 1? Either the show forgot about these two (and had Laurel grow more selfish) or they didn't know how to write them anymore. And now, even this season, it doesn't feel natural like season 1. Their relationship feels forced. Thea living with Laurel feels forced, because of Oliver being away and Thea not being close with anyone else now that Roy's also gone (plus Thea not wanting to live at the apartment). Laurel hasn't had genuine scenes with Thea without it making it look like she has ulterior motives (going to Nanda Parbat was for her sister, not for Thea). So, until I get genuine one-on-one scenes with Thea/Laurel that are not about Oliver, or about selfishness, then I cannot buy this sisterly relationship that they could have had if not for the fact of Thea explaining that she had no-one in those five years. 

They won't even write those scenes for SL & LL. I doubt they'll write it for TQ & LL.

 

I can believe the TQ/LL friendship because of what they established in s1. I can also see how they would have a lot to bond over between losing siblings and then having them return from the dead. It might not be int the script because of timing, but if you tell me they have been friends for years I will believe you. To me it seems that the two would have a connection. However, the writers have done a crap job of writing for LL since s1, which is why the friendship got dropped. I also think that KC is not the best actress, so some of her scenes with TQ now do not seem as genuine as I would like.

 

That all being said. In LLs' crazy self-absorbed What about me state she currently resides in, I believe she is a bad influence on TQ. This is going to sound snarky and there is no way around it. But I truly believe that LL is just one of those people that bring out the worst in other people, esp with the last name Queen. She did it to OQ for years, so it doesn’t surprise me that her being around TQ brings out some of TQ’s worst characteristics. I can only hope LL gets her shit together now that OQ is her friend again and will no longer be a bad influence.

[Sakura12]

They managed to show a strong sisterly relationship between Sara and Sin in the few scenes they had together. I did not see those types of scenes between Laurel and Thea even in S1. And they never showed anything remotely like that for Sara and Laurel, the actual sisters.

 

They can write those scenes or if they are writing them KC hasn't been able to pull them off. Mostly because she has trouble with giving off a warm and caring vibe. She always comes across as cold and distant. The hospital scene where she apologizing to Thea comes to mind. I didn't get warm or caring off of her, it just looked like she was reciting her lines and going through the motions. Willa Holland was doing an amazing job with injured Thea and the guilt and sorrow she feels for Sara. KC was giving me nothing. It was a monotone "I"m sorry" reach hand out to touch Thea to show caring. It's like she's a robot that does what it thinks humans should do in situations. 

Edited November 6, 2015 by Sakura12

[AyChihuahua]

Ollie and Laurel, and Oliver and Laurel were always messy from every point of view. I've been rewatching the series from the beginning for a week or two and my "favorite" is definitely The Undertaking from season 1. In which present day Oliver Laurel he's always only wanted her to be happy.

Just wait until you get to the L/O kiss in the mansion.  It makes me LOL every single time.  It's the most awkward kiss I think I've ever seen.  SA absolutely has no idea what to do with his hands.

[bijoux]

Just wait until you get to the L/O kiss in the mansion.  It makes me LOL every single time.  It's the most awkward kiss I think I've ever seen.  SA absolutely has no idea what to do with his hands.

Nah, I saw the kiss and them doing the unholy deed. But this is the instance where it's all down to the writing.

[Carrie Ann]

Of all the the tell-not-show relationships on Arrow, the Thea/Laurel one is the one I'm most willing to accept. Primarily because they've spent five months as roommates, so I'm willing to fanwank that Thea is just putting greater importance on whatever meager history they did have together. And also, I'm sure the Queens and Lances interacted as little as possible after the Gambit sank, and Thea was only 12 when that happened, and I bet she idolized Laurel (and maybe Sara, depending on how much they saw of each other). So she may have sort of saved her impressions from that time of LL and the Lances in amber. I'm willing to imagine Thea was blind to the reality of O/L's relationship, and was kept away from the nastiness between the adults.

 

And I can excuse her blindness to Laurel's faults and mistakes now, because...everyone else on the show shares that blindness. It's like LL's metahuman ability.

 

I cannot explain Thea retconning Quentin's history with their family. There is nothing that can explain that. And even more frustrating is that they didn't have to do this. It would have been a strong move for Thea to say, "I know our families don't have a great history with each other, but we can do better." Their parents had no real friends, didn't trust anyone, were willing to betray anyone (including each other), etc. She could have talked about that, and not wanting to be like that, being willing to be the first to make peace (which...Oliver always does and shouldn't have to, but sticking with the direction the writers wanted to go here). It would have tied back to all sorts of storylines on this show, shown insight and growth on TQ and OQ's part, and would have had the benefit of being true. But...why would we want to do that, when we could just confer sainthood on the Lances every week?

[thegirlsleuth]

I can't quote because I'm on my phone, but I couldn't understand Thea's referring to Quintin as a father figure. I mean her boyfriend is basically forced to live under an assumed name never to return home thanks to Lance's obsessive vengeance, and yet this is a guy she considers to be like family? Please picture a Felicity exasperated shrug gif right here (which I also can't do on my phone).

[TwistedandBored]

The writers don't seem to learn from their previous mistakes. They are doing more of "telling" us the Lances/Queens were close instead "showing" how close the they were/are.

 

Based on my experience from watching Arrow, I think Lances and Queens only tolerated it each other because Oliver was with Laurel and side piecing her sister. All these other things they are telling us doesn't matter to me at all and I bet it's does matter to many others. It like with the Laurel and Oliver love story of season 1, they were telling us how much Lauliver loved each other but instead showed us how much toxic they were together. 

[Soulfire]

“The reason that Oliver loves Felicity is because Felicity has allowed him to get in touch with pieces of his personality and his character that he thought were long gone. And, even better, new pieces that he never knew were there. So she makes him a better person—and thus, he loves her.”

 

- Stephen Amell at Louisville Comic Con November 7 answering the question why Oliver loves Felicity.

[dtissagirl]

Aww. That's a good answer.

[tarotx]

Some little kid asked SA why he loved Felicity. It was super cute watching on video :)

[BkWurm1]

It's extra cute knowing it was a little kid asking.  Such a great answer too. 

[wingster55]

I swear to Zod we better get a one on one scene with Thea and Sara Wednesday.

[Stevie-Dee]

So in Mericle's new interview, there was a lot of debate whether Felicity and Ray would try to restart something on his return in 4.06.

 

I don't even know how to respond to that.  I just, wow.

 

"The most surprising thing for us was that we don't feel like there is any residual tension, romantically, between the two of them. We debated a lot in the writers' room if Felicity and Ray would try and rekindle their romance and that just didn't feel natural. After everything they have both been through, not to mention that she's absolutely 100 percent in love with Oliver, they are in a really good place in their friendship and there are no hard feelings between them."

 

Maybe she meant in 3.21?  Also super-fricking-gross, but at least not cheating?

I don't think she meant they actually debated whether they would start a relationship again because that goes against everything they've been saying about Felicity and Oliver's journeys this season. I think she just meant they debated whether there would be a moment where one or both of them might consider it an option for a second because of the traumatic and emotional situation that, for lack of a better phrase, brings them back together. Not because of residual feelings or that Felicity would ever choose Ray over Oliver. But like she said, it wouldn't feel natural because it goes against everything they've said, written, and shown. Literally everything!

Tbh I think the point was to say there's no residual feelings between R/F but she kept talking to try and flesh out the answer.

[statsgirl]

Felicity's getting a lot of flack for being bitchy to Oliver in Lost Souls.  But isn't she behaving exactly the way Oliver would in her shoes?

 

She feels responsible for what happened to Ray even though Ray was the one who invented the nanites, who told her to inject him with them, and who was working on the suit.  Felicity was only involved tangentially but like Oliver, she feels like she's responsible for what happened and she the one who has to fix it.

 

She's also completely focused on what she has to do and she pushes everyone away to get it done.  Not as far as Oliver pushed her away last season, but far enough to give her the space she needs. It's tough for Oliver but like she said, unless he's magically learned to code, he can't help her.

 

I've been in Oliver's shoes, wanting to help, wanting to fix things for someone I love but not having the skills to do it.  That's probably how Felicity feels every time Oliver goes out to fight and she has to stay behind.

 

I liked how the episode helped equalize their relationship.

[Carrie Ann]

But...Oliver would not make Felicity the target of all of his guilt and stress. The only time we saw him do that was in 210, and that was explicitly because he was sublimating jealousy about her. This was allegedly not about him, and while she said it was all her fault, she spent the whole episode treating him like it was his. That's super shitty. If I had a friend whose girlfriend did that when she was stressed? I would not like her very much. So I didn't like Felicity much this episode, and I truly hope this is the very last time we ever see this behavior pattern because it's gross. The last thing Oliver needs or deserves is to be made to feel like he's responsible for even more problems that he didn't cause.

[statsgirl]

I didn't think that Felicity made Oliver the target of all her anger.  For telling Donna to come and visit, yes. That was an incredibly bone-headed move.

 

For taking her away so that she's blissful while Ray is suffering, that's one of those complex things where she was mad at herself for going and mad at him for being so loving.  Mixed up, and as she said herself, without a good role model for what makes a good relationship.

 

ETA:

 

 

The only time we saw him do that was in 210

And 213, also written by Beth Schwartz.  And pretty much most of s3 while she wondered what she had done wrong that he was pushing her away like that.

Edited November 12, 2015 by statsgirl

[AyChihuahua]

Felicity's getting a lot of flack for being bitchy to Oliver in Lost Souls.  But isn't she behaving exactly the way Oliver would in her shoes?

For me, crappy behavior is not something to emulate.  Oliver has behaved hideously on scores of occasions...that doesn't mean others behaving similarly is okay; it means both are bad.

 

This is the first time in S4 I have not liked Felicity.  It'll be fine for me; she's still overall great.  But definitely did not like her tonight, and would have appreciated a sincere apology to Oliver.

Edited November 12, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[wonderwall]

But this wasn't just about Ray, this was about her and who she was. So guilt was part of it, but the part where she mentioned not being the kind of woman who lost herself in a guy had to have been festering for a while. Maybe it happened over the week she was looking for Ray, but it seemed like something that had been niggling in the back of her mind while they were gone. The whole issue didn't come out of nowhere for me, only part of it.

 

I thought she was scared about losing herself in a guy because she feels like at one point, said guy will walk out of her life like her father did, and maybe that's what she saw with her parents. Donna lost herself with Papa Smoak, and he left which devastated Donna. I think Felicity was scared of going through what Donna did.

[Carrie Ann]

I didn't think that Felicity made Oliver the target of all her anger.  For telling Donna to come and visit, yes. That was an incredibly bone-headed move.

 

 

She was already taking her stress out on him before Donna arrived. And I guess I just don't see his agreeing with Donna's suggestion that she could come to town as that boneheaded. Felicity wasn't taking care of herself and wouldn't talk to Oliver about it or let him do anything for her, so he was hoping Donna might have better luck. He will very clearly never make that mistake again. (Consider: if Oliver had been spiraling downward and stressed about something, and Felicity had called in, oh, let's say Thea, from out of town to talk to him, would the show paint that as a mistake?)

 

Anyway, Felicity said herself that she was so worked up because she felt like Ray being gone was her fault, because she'd let herself get lost in Oliver. In the immortal words of Dan Ackroyd in Tommy Boy: "Good, you've pinpointed it. Step two is washing it out." As I said above, she said it was her fault, but she treated Oliver like it was his. I hope this is the last time it ever happens. I wish the writers would have made it explicit that she realized her behavior was unacceptable and that she owed him a huge apology, but they did neither, so I'm left to wonder whether they really think it was that big a deal. I think they think it's cute when she gets mad, and I think they only like to have Oliver be the one who's wrong, so...it's muddled, for me.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[Morrigan2575]

Oliver has (in the past) routinely lashed out at Felicity when he's all stressed out about a mission. Hell 210 was all about Oliver lashing out at Felicity for his own bullshit issues.

[GirlvsTV]

I actually thought Felicity basically morphed into s3 Oliver in 4x06 and I ended up enjoying the role reversal. In season 3 Oliver thought being in a relationship would be a distraction from being the Arrow. In Lost Souls, the realization that Ray is alive makes Felicity feel guilty about leaving with Oliver which makes her worry that she has 'lost' herself in him. IMO, that could also be read as Felicity ultimately feeling like being with Oliver was a distraction that kept her from being her 'real' self. So, if Oliver could drag Felicity through the emotional ringer for an entire season due to his identity issues, I don't have a problem with Felicity causing Oliver a bit of distress for part of an episode tonight. Felicity needed to sort some stuff out for herself and thanks to her talk with Mama Smoak, she did. Oliver and Felicity ended the episode with an even stronger relationship so it's all a win in my book.

[Morrigan2575]

Oh that is an interesting analysis

[KenyaJ]

(Consider: if Oliver had been spiraling downward and stressed about something, and Felicity had called in, oh, let's say Thea, from out of town to talk to him, would the show paint that as a mistake?)

 

I don't think the show painted it as a mistake. Felicity's conversation with Donna was what got her back on track and helped her realize she'd been unfair to Oliver. I felt like the show was implicitly saying that Felicity did need Donna there, and Oliver was right to have had her come to SC.

 

Also, to me, Felicity and Oliver's last scene was an implicit "I'm sorry" from Felicity. I was okay with her not explicitly saying it, because to me her demeanor said it for her. I understand anyone who didn't see it that way, but I was surprised by how much it worked for me.

Edited November 12, 2015 by KenyaJ

[statsgirl]

I think Felicity did need Donna's advice, but Donna's arrival was also what 'broke' the situation.

 

She was already taking her stress out on him before Donna arrived. And I guess I just don't see his agreeing with Donna's suggestion that she could come to town as that boneheaded. Felicity wasn't taking care of herself and wouldn't talk to Oliver about it or let him do anything for her, so he was hoping Donna might have better luck. He will very clearly never make that mistake again. (Consider: if Oliver had been spiraling downward and stressed about something, and Felicity had called in, oh, let's say Thea, from out of town to talk to him, would the show paint that as a mistake?)

 

 

I guess I didn't see Felicity as spiraling downward that much.  Yes, it was a week of energy drinks and not showering but that's pretty normal in my family when someone is working on a big project.  I remember my mother telling me how upset she was when my father took amphetamines when studying for their med school exams because they were studying night and day.

 

Felicity wasn't spiraling downward, she was in hyper focus mode and Donna, who wouldn't understand what she was going through and wouldn't be able to help her, was the wrong person to invite to town.  (In my family, when someone is in that kind of stress mode, we keep everyone away so they can get their work done.)

 

It's a new relationship and they're still trying to figure each other out.  Oliver didn't know that Felicity was bored in Ivy Town and now he's learned something else about her.

[hogwash]

Her meanness/harshness reminded me of how she was with Donna when she first came to visit. A lot of it was really uncalled for and seemed to be coming from nowhere. It was her own little thing that didn't really have anything to do with Donna that time or Oliver this time. 

 

I liked how the Ray thing tied into her secretly helping Team Arrow in 401. Ivy Town was definitely an Oliver thing. It's worse because they didn't get to talk about that before Thea and Laurel barged in and called them back to Starling. It's a talk they should have and most likely would've had ages ago. Ray being in trouble while they weren't there just made it worse. Though I was really annoyed with Felicity until their conversation after Donna ducked out. It helped me see where she was coming from. 

 

Stop being mean to the people you love the most, Felicity! 

Edited November 12, 2015 by hogwash

[Morrigan2575]

Stop being mean to the people you love the most, Felicity!

Isn't that the norm though? We hurt the ones we love the most?

[Carrie Ann]

Oliver has (in the past) routinely lashed out at Felicity when he's all stressed out about a mission. Hell 210 was all about Oliver lashing out at Felicity for his own bullshit issues.

 

Which is why I pointed to 210 as the only example I can remember of Oliver targeting his anger at Felicity specifically, in a sustained way like we saw her do in this episode. And in that episode? He had to make a big apology, and she didn't let him off easy on it. That's really all I would have required, though I would have still hated the behavior. I don't like that the show doesn't believe Oliver is deserving of that, of someone saying, "I was so wrong to treat you that way and I'm so sorry, I won't do it again." Instead, he has to apologize as always.

 

And, no, I don't see the "thank you" as a substitute for "I'm sorry." I just don't. Like I said, I think O/F are over it now and I think the show is over it, so I'm going to be over it too. Next week. But for tonight, I'm not pleased. 

[dtissagirl]

It also doesn't help Felicity within the narrative that the audience knows way more than she does. We know Oliver was about to propose. She has no idea. So the audience is painfully aware of the IMMENSE power of destruction Felicity has over Oliver. She has no idea.

[Morrigan2575]

That's fine. I'm happy with the resolution because I felt they're talk at the end worked to resolve all their issues like adult.

To each their own