Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[calliope1975]

but on the CW the only requirement for love between two people is how good they look together naked.

 

This is pure speculation and an overactive imagination on my part, but I'm pretty confident Felicity and Oliver would look damn good naked.

 

But I get what you're saying. :)

[quarks]

From the media thread:

 

What’s her relationship like with Oliver now? Is there any jealousy toward Felicity (Emily Bett Rickards)?
They’re best friends and have been best friends for life, even though there’s been hard times and good times. Their bond is so strong that if he romantically gets involved with Felicity, she’s going to be able to separate the two.

 

 

I don't know if this means that, at least according to KC, Oliver and Laurel are so close that Laurel will be able to separate Felicity and Oliver, or if she believes that Oliver and Laurel's friendship is so strong it can survive Oliver falling in love with Felicity. I will actually buy that second one since their friendship was apparently strong enough to survive Oliver's sleeping with her sister, apparently getting her sister killed, and sleeping with her sister again.  And in fairness to KC, the script has given her several lines about knowing Oliver and always feeling a bond with the Hood and whatever, so I can see where she's coming from there. 

 

I have an entirely different question about this:

 

How does Laurel even know?

 

Diggle and Roy and the fern saw the flirting. Diggle, at least, has to be aware of the date because of the multitasking. But post then, the team has been kinda busy not getting QC back, running to boxing arenas, freezing bombs, becoming fathers, having rooftop fights, and so on. And only Oliver and Felicity and the extra in the background were there for the breakup.  I'm expected to believe that in the middle of this, Oliver called Laurel, said, "Yeah, I asked Felicity out on a date and it actually bombed. No, I mean, real bomb. Yeah, I'm totes ditching her. Friends forever now?"

 

Nope.

 

So the earliest Laurel would have found out about any of this would be after they broke up. And since she now has her sister's death and revenge on her mind, why would she care?

Edited October 15, 2014 by quarks

[NumberCruncher]

It doesn't matter that everything between them is founded on trust, friendship, respect, loyalty, acceptance, support. It can't be love.

LOL. In all seriousness, I think everything you mentioned is why I like the two of them together so much instead of it just being about being two hot people hooking up "just because" it's a CW show. I know some people dismissed what Marc Guggenheim said about how Felicity feels about Oliver seems more like love than sex because people thought it was patronizing and one-sided but I really don't think he was too far off. I think Felicity at first was attracted to him on a physical level which is why she was always blurting out innuendos, but I never got the impression she would have been the type to jump into Oliver's bed on a whim even had he offered. I think the show did a pretty good job showing how her love for him grew over time.

Edited October 15, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[foreverevolving]

"Yeah, I asked Felicity out on a date and it actually bombed. No, I mean, real bomb. Yeah, I'm totes ditching her. Friends forever now?"

 

so glad I wasn't drinking anything.

I was totally picturing that conversation in my head, and the idea of Oliver saying "totes" was... it's been a few minutes and i still can't stop laughing.

this may have made my day.

[statsgirl]

Diggle and Roy and the fern saw the flirting. Diggle, at least, has to be aware of the date because of the multitasking. But post then, the team has been kinda busy not getting QC back, running to boxing arenas, freezing bombs, becoming fathers, having rooftop fights, and so on. And only Oliver and Felicity and the extra in the background were there for the breakup.  I'm expected to believe that in the middle of this, Oliver called Laurel, said, "Yeah, I asked Felicity out on a date and it actually bombed. No, I mean, real bomb. Yeah, I'm totes ditching her. Friends forever now?

From every KC interview I've seen or read, yeap, this is entirely how she sees Laurel's relationship with Oliver.    In the middle of everything else going on, teenage gril Oliver would totes phone up his BFF and talk about that.  Laurel would take the time away from interrogating the suspect to support him because bad Felicity walked away. 

[dtissagirl]

I guess I can buy it that Laurel hang out with Team Arrow at the foundry during the time jump, and saw the flirty flirty.

But if she's worrying about Oliver's love life while being Sister-Avenger Princess Warrior, then her narrative problems are even bigger than I thought.

[quarks]

Dancingnancy, that's pretty much my thing. If Sara's death is going to be the catalyst for her being Black Canary, then that needs to be the catalyst, whether it involves her going vengeance demon or deciding that she has to train to take her sister's place as the city's defender. She shouldn't care about anything else.  Certainly not who Oliver is banging or not banging.   In a few months, sure.  Not now.  

[TanyaKay]

 

 

I have an entirely different question about this:

 

How does Laurel even know?

 

Diggle and Roy and the fern saw the flirting. Diggle, at least, has to be aware of the date because of the multitasking. But post then, the team has been kinda busy not getting QC back, running to boxing arenas, freezing bombs, becoming fathers, having rooftop fights, and so on. And only Oliver and Felicity and the extra in the background were there for the breakup.  I'm expected to believe that in the middle of this, Oliver called Laurel, said, "Yeah, I asked Felicity out on a date and it actually bombed. No, I mean, real bomb. Yeah, I'm totes ditching her. Friends forever now?"

 

Nope.

 

So the earliest Laurel would have found out about any of this would be after they broke up. And since she now has her sister's death and revenge on her mind, why would she care?

 

I have a feeling that the show would not go there - put Laurel anywhere between Felicity and Oliver considering they put a lid on whatever they had going. This is just Katie Cassidy being oblivious to the story that is being told - like always. I am sure she does not watch the whole show in its entirety, nor does she read the while script. I have said it before and will repeat it here that I seriously think some production assistant highlights her bits on the scripts and staples the rest and she just reads her lines because every interview and con appearance make us believe that she has NO clue what has happened with her character or what is going to happen to her character. At times, I even feel sorry for her, at times I feel like dying with second hand embarrassment. Boy, this girl needs some serious PR help.

[Happy Harpy]

 

I hated Oliver/Laurel long before Felicity showed up, and it wasn't because of the backstory because I could have got beyond that.  It was the interactions between Oliver and Laurel and how unbelievably nasty Laurel was.

Same here, it never worked for me. I didn't analyze deeply the whys, considering that sisters + swapping = eww was clear enough for me at first. But I remember posting that I hoped they'd work on the Oliver/Laurel relationship, because I would have liked to enjoy the show without endlessly rolling my eyes at their "end game" couple. I don't remember if it was as early as episode 2, or before Felicity's second appearance, but she was certainly not a contender for Oliver's affections then.

Moreover, their relationship consisted imo, for season 1-A at least, in Laurel lecturing and criticizing Oliver like a surly schoolmistress -actually, it's a problem for me in many of her relationships, including with her father and Tommy- and Oliver hiding everything that made his new life from her, making the lectures and criticism sound even nastier because the character of Laurel had no idea, but me, the viewer? I knew all about his dilemma.

Nothing I could root for.

 

If Sara's death is going to be the catalyst for her being Black Canary, then that needs to be the catalyst, whether it involves her going vengeance demon or deciding that she has to train to take her sister's place as the city's defender. She shouldn't care about anything else.

I couldn't agree more, but it wouldn't be the first time they'd use the wrong focus with the character of Laurel, especially regarding her relationship with Oliver.

Example (the mother of all, actually):

-Laurel is angry at Oliver because of his role in the death of her sister, and cheating on her. Her words were harsh but for me, she was entitled to those feelings. Very harsh, "wow" harsh, but not nasty in the "low blow" sense of the word.

-Laurel mellows and seems ready to forgive Oliver. It sounds as if she isn't done with her romantic feelings for him.

-Oliver tells Laurel to stay away from her. Laurel gets nasty to the point of being unprofessional, insulting him in front of a client.

It gave (me, at least) the impression that Laurel wasn't righteously angry because of the wrongs Oliver did to her, but miffed because he rejected her and wounded her pride/ego. It reflected negatively, for me, on the O/L relationship (and the character of Laurel, of course) because indeed, there were more important issues at hand between them. So trying to incorporate  (force?) a romantic dimension there  ("on again off again"), on top of the serious issues, tainted the whole thing in shallow and unnecessary in my eyes.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[writersblock51]

I think everyone's listed excellent examples of why I, too, struggle to believe that Laurel and Oliver were ever best friends or even could be going forward.  And I'm another one who felt their relationship (past, present & future) was toxic before Felicity even stepped foot on the show.  The sister-swapping in the pilot spelled instant doom to me.

 

Interesting about the kiss in the S1 finale and Oliver not being able to tell Tommy that he wasn't still in love with Laurel.  Guess I'd blanked that conversation out.  I remember the S1 lit-foyer kiss, though, and it irked me when it aired live.  She was earnestly looking at him, believing he was truly back and being open with her - when he wasn't, not even close, and he KNEW IT.  Maybe he wanted to believe differently?  I guess? But I never sensed that from him either.  I think he had slipped into the mold she'd created for him when they were younger.  And that mold has never been who he truly was and is.  He'll never fit into what her perception of him.

 

And with the inevitable contrasts to other relationships he's had other that with Laurel...

 

McKenna - he respsected her to a point but for very practical reasons, he couldn't be honest with her.  They also had sex pretty quickly after their first date. Definitely more pre-island Oliver than current day Oliver there...

 

Helena - as messed up as she was - and as wounded as they both were - he was honest with her.  She also called him out on his BS.  For better or worse, her own head problems got in the way of anything that could have developed between them but it was, IMO, the first intimate relationship he'd had since he returned where he was inclined to be honest (this includes his S1 relationship with Diggle)

 

Isabel - all pre-island Oliver there. Nothing redeeming or honest about it for either of them

 

Sara - I didn't like the lack of build up to the hook up but on one level, I could see them getting together.  They were both hurting.  I could have bought a 1 night thing, maybe even a 2 or 3 night thing.  but the progression into dating seemed very off to me.  No fault of the actors, either - I think they both tried to sell the stupid stuff that the writers had pulled together.  But they were honest with each other - or as honest as 2 very wounded, guarded and careful old friends could be.  Sara and Oliver remaining close friends until they were in the 90s would have been something I would buy into

 

Which brings us to Felicity.  Their relationship is all levels of trust, getting to know each other, being honest, being careful, being loyal, being protective.  it didn't come out of left field at any point, in my opinion. I would have liked more shown to us rather than Arrow 2.5 but I can fanwank to a degree to get to the blatantly more comfy with touching each other stuff in the premiere.  And Diggle's "the only one you're kidding yourself is you" line subtly confirms that what we saw in that ep is just the latest in what's been happening for months.  That was my take on it, at least.

 

Without Oliver actually telling her all of what happened while he was gone for 5 years, he's pulled her into enough of his Arrow world that the girl - genius that she is - could figure things out.  He spoke Russian, knew some Russian customs (especially of the Bravta), has fighting skills and weapons & chemical knowledge that one does not get from an isolated island. 

 

She didn't ask about his past at the date - he volunteered.  That one step may seem small for most adults but it is massive for Oliver Queen (and anyone suffering from PTSD, IMO).

 

So while Oliver said and did similiar stuff with Laurel at the end of S1, the meaning behind it all - and where his feelings & maturity level are with Felicity is what makes the monumental difference.  He met Felicity in S1, obviously, He's admitted that there was something about her that caught his attention.  I don't think S1 Oliver was ready to even consider anything romantically intimate with S1 Felicity.  But the bricks were being put together to build a strong foundation for them then.

[AustenChick]

I wonder if Sara and Laurel just had been friends (not sisters), would that story line have been easier to follow? 

 

I think O/F crept up to the writers the same way they crept up on the audience. But I saw the potential in season 1 in the ep when Felicity gave Oliver the book Walter found in the Queen mansion. That "Can I trust you?" exchange turned out to be more intimate than probably written. I think EBR even said that. I think it's the acting that made that scene hint at something more than friends. Then in S1, the episode called Dodger, you have Oliver giving Felicity a surprised but admiring glance when she enters the room in a dress.

 

Then they started building those moments in S2, feeding us small, but really romantic moments between them. I mean, notice the music that's used with them and the close ups. Like in S2, ep 7 State v. Queen -- the music when he's saved her and then the close up of when Oliver takes Felicity's hand when she tries to apologize for getting him into a situation that made him kill again. I think I read somewhere that EBR said that she didn't even though they were planning on doing a close up of them grasping hands.

 

Also in Streets of Fire in S2 -- there's a close up of Ollie's hand on her back when they hug, the epic music. There's another close up of Oliver putting a hand on Felicity shoulder before they go get the cure from Blood. While those moments were few, they were built up enough epic love style.

[KenyaJ]

I think O/F crept up to the writers the same way they crept up on the audience. But I saw the potential in season 1 in the ep when Felicity gave Oliver the book Walter found in the Queen mansion. That "Can I trust you?" exchange turned out to be more intimate than probably written.

 

Can I just express my utter love for that scene. Before they even started talking, the first think that made me perk up and take notice was the way Oliver waved to Felicity when he saw her outside, like he was happy and excited to see her. After what he told her last week about his post-homecoming state of mind, small gesture is even more amazing to me. Not only was he happy to see her, but it was immediately after he'd had a flashback about the island. In retrospect, that scene makes his words in the restaurant seem even more resonant to me. There definitely was just something about her.

[writersblock51]

... In retrospect, that scene makes his words in the restaurant seem even more resonant to me. There definitely was just something about her.

 

I think many scenes from S1 on will look differently in retrospect from what Oliver said on the date.  Not necessarily 'falling in love' type of stuff (well, some of that perhaps) as much as connecting with Felicity in a way he wasn't with anyone else.  No offense to Diggle with that comment either.  I think Oliver's developing relationship with Felicity was unlike any relationship he'd ever experienced, pre or post island.

 

As noted here and elsewhere, she was the only non-related female that he came into regular contact with that he wasn't sleeping with.  But he clearly cared about her in many ways, not just as someone who was helping him manage 2 lives. 

 

What we don't know really is how much of their scenes after the initial one were completely natural/based on the actors' chemistry and how much of their chemistry was written in.  There's no way I'll buy that the show switched gears in S1 to make Felicity a full blown love interest, but I can accept - happily, it turns out - that the EPs, writers, etc watched enough S1 scenes to know that something was happening anyway.  And that further scenes built on those "accidental" ones.

 

Saying all that makes watching S1 and S2 scenes more poignant than I would have originally thought.

 

ETA: I also think that  by having Oliver admit to Felicity that he knew there was something about her from the very beginning puts yet another layer onto his character.  If he felt something that he hadn't before (again, not necessarily 'love'), he may not have acknowledged it to himself OR even known what to think or do about it.  Oliver is, if nothing else, very good at compartmentalizing his feelings much of the time.  So it is quite likely that he put Felicity and that 'something special' in a part of his life that he hasn't used before.  That freed him up, so to speak, to pursue things with Helena, McKenna, and Laurel in S1 with no consideration about how he may have felt about Felicity.  She wasn't involved with that part of him - until Helena hurt her.

 

Whether something went off in Oliver when he found her tied up by Helena, I don't know.  Likely he didn't know either or, if he felt something other than obligation for her, he wasn't going to look any deeper than that.  More compartmentalization.

 

For me, the change came with Isabel.  And it's likely that Oliver was - looking back now - dealing with stuff with his feelings for Felicity that were entirely foreign for him.  He was fine with having sex but anything more than that was just beyond what he expected for himself.  He'd never actually had to think that deeply about it before.

 

So the progression of his acknowledgement of his feelings for Felicity - even finally realizing the difference between them and anything else he'd ever felt before - coincides with his maturity, in my opinion.  After losing his parents & best friend (sorry KC) in brutal fashion, he has still come through with the emotional base to handle acknowledging his feelings for Felicity.

 

Of course, he's still the misguided, well intentioned blockhead of a superhero so he decides that he can't be with her after all.  Whereas he could walk away from Laurel, Sara,  and McKenna, I think he knows he will not be able to with Felicity.

 

But how he handled 'the breakup' with Felicity is so vastly differently than every breakup he's gone through before.  It speaks to the growing maturity of both him and Felicity but also to the very uniqueness of their feelings and relationship.

Edited October 15, 2014 by writersblock51

[Password]

I've always thought Felicity allowed Oliver to relax. Not think about the many things he's done wrong, the guilt, the "Ollie" of old. He was just allowed to be, smile and laugh with her. It made his interaction with her so fun and sweet at the same time. The dinner scene, is one I cannot praise enough. It was just wonderful the way he opened up to her. Laying game on her thick. But game that came from the heart.

[KenyaJ]

What we don't know really is how much of their scenes after the initial one were completely natural/based on the actors' chemistry and how much of their chemistry was written in. 

 

I wonder this too. One of my absolute favorite moments between them is in "Vertigo," when Oliver says he's careful about what he puts in his body, and Felicity says "I've noticed. I said not noticed, right?" Before Oliver speaks again, he has to stop and compose himself to keep from laughing. I've always wondered if that was scripted or if it was Stephen breaking character again. I've always suspected the latter, especially considering how out of it Oliver was at the beginning of that scene.  Another one is Oliver moving over to examine Felicity's roots when she tells him she's not a natural blond. Do the writers write this stuff, or is it just and Emily playing off each other? Burning questions. In any event, I'm completely fascinated by their dynamic together.

Edited October 15, 2014 by KenyaJ

[TanyaKay]

Can I just express my utter love for that scene. Before they even started talking, the first think that made me perk up and take notice was the way Oliver waved to Felicity when he saw her outside, like he was happy and excited to see her. After what he told her last week about his post-homecoming state of mind, small gesture is even more amazing to me. Not only was he happy to see her, but it was immediately after he'd had a flashback about the island. In retrospect, that scene makes his words in the restaurant seem even more resonant to me. There definitely was just something about her.

 

OMG!

By the time that episode rolled out, I was sick of the whole Laurel drama and then I saw Oliver waving at Felicity and he is not the kind of guy who waves at people, not even at his baby sister! I remember squealing when I saw that.

What a lovely scene that was.

[bethy]

Before they even started talking, the first think that made me perk up and take notice was the way Oliver waved to Felicity when he saw her outside, like he was happy and excited to see her.

 

 

I loved that, too.  I noticed it on my latest rewatch and it made me go, "Aw!"  Partly because it's kind of a goofy wave.  

[Genki]

  Another one is Oliver moving over to examine Felicity's roots when she tells him she's not a natural blond. Do the writers write this stuff, or is it just and Emily playing off each other? Burning questions. In any event, I'm completely fascinated by their dynamic together.

 

Stephen said that was his own improvisation. I think it was in one of his Facebook Q&As. Also the Wink in Russia was another of Stephen's improvisation.

 

I also wonder about that vertigo scene…

 

I really liked that Felicity brought a lightness to Oliver throughout S1 & S2. Hope that remains in S3, especially now with Oliver reverting into The Arrow/Mission mode. As mush as I loved the longing looks,  fun interaction will be nice too.

[statsgirl]

 

Stephen said that was his own improvisation. I think it was in one of his Facebook Q&As. Also the Wink in Russia was another of Stephen's improvisation.

No wonder he likes playing scenes with Felicity/EBR.  He gets to bring a lot more to the show, and different things than the stoic, shut-down Oliver he usually plays.  And since she does comedy well, they can bounce off of each other.

 

I think it's possible that that's a door they're keeping open, and have said so to her. I'm more and more convinced that they have a concrete intention of trying a Laurel/Oliver romance again, and then they'll try to sell us that their love conquers all. Which..seriously..stop.

One of the problems for me is that Laurel brings out the worst in Oliver; the douchiest, lyingest, most selfish version of him even now.  I'll see how they play it in the episodes till Christmas but nothing about their relationship to this point makes me ever want to see them in a scene together again.

[dtissagirl]

I was catching up with the Bitterness thread, and last night a lot of you guys were talking about how it felt like there was something missing in this episode wrt Oliver/Felicity. And I haven't seen anyone touch on this in the episode thread, so:

 

I kinda didn't see Oliver shutting himself off emotionally completely in this episode. I thought, instead, he deliberately kept Felicity at arms' length. But not anyone else, not really. He initiated the first hug with Laurel, and then he actually picked up a chair and sat down with her in the scene in the stairs -- showing himself available to her. When Diggle found him on the roof, he accepted all of Diggle's reasonings -- military training, keep going after a friend gets shot -- and accepted Diggle's help. And he told Diggle that investigating is the only thing he can do, which between these two guys, is code for "this is HOW I'm dealing with my grief, and I appreciate the help". And then there's Oliver's line about how doesn't wanna die in the cave -- a train of thought that is directly linked to his discussion with Felicity, but he makes the sentiments available not to her, but to Diggle. Again he opened up to someone other than Felicity.

 

With Felicity, I thought Oliver was putting up the façade of coldness unfeeling stoic warrior leader because... well, he's heartbroken. And it's not very rational. He was the one who broke up with her before it even started. Oliver told Felicity he loves her, he kissed her, AFTER saying he couldn't be with her, but from his POV, she's the one who said "I told you after we talked, it would be over". I can totally buy it if Oliver internalized Felicity actually saying "it's over" and walking away from him as *him* being rejected by her.

 

[And hey, Felicity just told him she's NOT gonna sit around waiting for him to die AND THEN walked away from him again, so from his POV she's just reiterating her actions after the kiss.]

 

And I think he's distancing himself from her grief physically -- he doesn't go anywhere near Felicity for the entire episode -- because I get a feeling that Oliver thinks if he hugs her, that's it -- he'll never ever be able to let go again, because telling her he cannot do this right now was the hardest thing ever the first time around.

 

And the whole "I can't grief because LEADERSHIP!" spiel is complete BS, but Felicity is hurt because I don't think she realizes what he's really doing. She thinks he's shutting himself off because he's emotionally stunted, per her vicious snapping at him. This is Fictional Couple Miscommunication 101, the angsty version.

 

Is it contrived? Uh, yeah. Completely. These writers think the only interesting way to do a romance arc is to bring third parties between the pairing -- Accio Ray Palmer! -- and have the two characters talk to other people about what's really going on instead of, you know, sitting down and hashing out their truths. But I guess I get where Oliver was coming from, and I also now completely get Amell's tweet about Felicity breaking Oliver's heart instead of the other way around.

 

TL;DR, Oliver and Felicity are pretty stupid, but I love them regardless. <3

Edited October 16, 2014 by dancingnancy

[tv echo]

I kinda didn't see Oliver shutting himself off emotionally completely in this episode. I thought, instead, he deliberately kept Felicity at arms' length. But not anyone else, not really. He initiated the first hug with Laurel, and then he actually picked up a chair and sat down with her in the scene in the stairs -- showing himself available to her. When Diggle found him on the roof, he accepted all of Diggle's reasonings -- military training, keep going after a friend gets shot -- and accepted Diggle's help. And he told Diggle that investigating is the only thing he can do, which between these two guys, is code for "this is HOW I'm dealing with my grief, and I appreciate the help". And then there's Oliver's line about how doesn't wanna die in the cave -- a train of thought that is directly linked to his discussion with Felicity, but he makes the sentiments available not to her, but to Diggle. Again he opened up to someone other than Felicity.

I see what you're saying, but I see it a bit differently. ; )  I thought Oliver's interactions with Laurel were not about making himself emotionally available to her, but about doing what he felt he should be doing as a supportive friend.  He felt he had to stay strong and stay the leader.  He couldn't afford to break down and become emotional and griefstricken.  So he makes himself physically available to Laurel and tries to comfort her and look out for her.  That first hug felt more obligatory than heartfelt on his part.  As I said in the other thread, I felt that Oliver's real emotions only leaked out to Diggle and Felicity when he confided his fear of being the dead body in the foundry.  He did not confide this to Laurel.  He first told Felicity that he saw himself as the dead body in the foundry in the future.  He later told Diggle that he didn't want to die there.  That was the real, raw Oliver.

Edited October 16, 2014 by tv echo

[tv echo]

I had to double-check my memory, so here's a correction to my post above.  Oliver doesn't tell Felicity outright that he sees himself as the dead body in the foundry in the future.  He tells her that he was looking at Sara's body earlier and realized that "one of these days, it's going to be me.  This life that I've chosen, it only ends one way."

 

Arrow: Oliver and Felicity 3x02 Scenes(You're Still a Human Being Oliver)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANNDoxbMGL0

[dtissagirl]

Oh, I agree that Oliver made himself available for Laurel more as a shoulder to cry on than opening up emotionally to her. I thought it was the right thing for him to do, even -- let Laurel talk and just listen. I can probably even read more into it -- he really needed that first hug, and felt like the safest option was Laurel. 

 

But he kept putting physical distance between him and Felicity, he didn't want to talk to her about Sara except if it pertained to the mission, but no sharing of either his emotions OR Felicity's... and I think that's him reacting to the break up more than anything else.

[blixie]

 

She thinks he's shutting himself off because he's emotionally stunted,

Eh, I don't think she's wrong in that. He IS emotionally stunted. She was wrong to accuse of him not feeling emotions in the right observable to her way, but she wasn't wrong about his unwillingness to process those emotions and live in the mess of them. He totally missed Diggle's point in The Calm that there's never really a right time to go after what you want, life is full of risks physically and emotionally get the in the game Oliver.

[Carrie Ann]

And I think he's distancing himself from her grief physically -- he doesn't go anywhere near Felicity for the entire episode -- because I get a feeling that Oliver thinks if he hugs her, that's it -- he'll never ever be able to let go again, because telling her he cannot do this right now was the hardest thing ever the first time around.

 

And the whole "I can't grief because LEADERSHIP!" spiel is complete BS, but Felicity is hurt because I don't think she realizes what he's really doing. She thinks he's shutting himself off because he's emotionally stunted, per her vicious snapping at him. This is Fictional Couple Miscommunication 101, the angsty version.

 

I agree with your whole comment--it really crystallized the impressions I had from the episode. But I think I find this miscommunication less contrived than you do, because I think that Oliver and Felicity have some fundamental misunderstandings of each other because of their respective emotional walls. Felicity has every reason to believe that Oliver has shut off a part of himself that feels emotions, because she's spent a lot of time around stoic Oliver, and he just told her that he can't be that open person he was for 20 minutes in The Calm. I think Diggle doesn't buy that crap and never has--which is why I still believe Diggle understands Oliver better than anyone (except maybe Sara, sob). But Felicity clearly has abandonment issues, and I think that makes her insecure when it comes to other people, so I can understand even further why she would believe that Oliver really has made this choice, and that it has changed his willingness to feel anything. And despite being emotionally open in many ways, she also holds back a lot of herself, so I can understand Oliver not knowing how to behave at this point with her either.

 

While I missed, and will continue to miss, their constant support for each other, I wasn't surprised by the lack of it last night and I think they both acted appropriately and in character, given the circumstances. I wish there could have been even a tiny moment, a little brush of the arm at the burial, something like that, but there is going to be some distance between them this season, and the grieving process isn't over yet. I think they'll still be there for each other when it matters.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[dtissagirl]

Eh, I don't think she's wrong in that. He IS emotionally stunted. She was wrong to accuse of him not feeling emotions in the right observable to her way, but she wasn't wrong about his unwillingness to process those emotions and live in the mess of them. He totally missed Diggle's point in The Calm that there's never really a right time to go after what you want, life is full of risks physically and emotionally get the in the game Oliver.

 

I should have worded it better. My take was Felicity thinks Oliver is JUST emotionally stunted. Which, yes, you're absolutely right he is, but I don't think Felicity realizes how heartbroken Oliver is. Because he's hiding it behind the stoic lone warrior bullshit because he's emotionally stunted [hi, full circle! *g*]... but I think the thing Felicity missed is that Oliver is protecting himself from her as well.

[Danny Franks]

I should have worded it better. My take was Felicity thinks Oliver is JUST emotionally stunted. Which, yes, you're absolutely right he is, but I don't think Felicity realizes how heartbroken Oliver is. Because he's hiding it behind the stoic lone warrior bullshit because he's emotionally stunted [hi, full circle! *g*]... but I think the thing Felicity missed is that Oliver is protecting himself from her as well.

 

She shouldn't be missing that, because she's seen him do this crap before, and seemed aware that he closes himself off to protect himself. She's seen how he compartmentalises and hides truths, even from himself. But now she can't see it because reasons, so the writers can start doing all the 'will they, won't they' romantic obstacle tropes, and pat themselves on the back over how clever they are for using devices a thousand other TV shows have used.

 

If, as you guys have said, there seems to have been so much happen in the five months since the season 2 finale that Oliver can say he loves Felicity again, then she should have gotten to know him even more, and have that much closer a connection with him, to see through his bullshit all the more effectively. Yes, there's the fact that she's hurting and wants to protect herself, and is angry at him for not being what she wants him to be, but even then, I think Felicity has always been shown to be empathetic enough to see when someone else is struggling too.

[Chaser]

]I don't think its a lack of empathy on Felicity's part. I just think it was everything coming to head. And part of 'everything' was the last five months. Five months of getting closer to Oliver and him opening up to her and the emotional date and all the hope that came with it; and then it was over. Oliver ripped it out from under her. And then her friend died. She is just watching Oliver pull away from her and she probably knows how much he is hurting and to watch him just close up and accept that life. it probably drove her crazy. So she was human. She snapped. She walked away.

 

But there should have been more. It felt unfinished. I hope we get that conversation in the next episode.

Edited October 16, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[AustenChick]

 

But there should have been more. It felt unfinished. I hope we get that conversation in the next episode.

 

Yeah, I hope so too. But...I'm thinking we might now. After the big F/O moment in the premiere, there was an odd opening of Oliver walking with Roy and Felicity as Roy and Felicity just argued about setting up the phone system or something. It seemed, I don't know, too soon to go back to normal talk without a "this is how things will be" talk. But I guess maybe those don't always happen? I just feel like they do with F/O though. 

 

Um, so my concern is -- are Oliver and Felicity going to not be close now? Even as friends? Their dynamic is my favorite on the show. 

 

Also, Oliver's sad "I don't want to die down here" admission -- we're probably going to have to wait awhile for Felicity to realize Oliver feels that way, won't we?

[wonderwall]

Okay this has been my second time trying to understand why people think Laurel/Oliver should be together by the end. So what I did was go to other websites that are more pro-Laurel and pro-Lauriver in order to see the other POV. But what I came across isn't very substantial. I could write an essay as to why I think Oliver/Felicity should end up together but regarding Laurel/Oliver here's what I found:

• I found a lot of "They HAVE to end up together" without much justification why
• GA and BC were together in the comics
• Oliver held onto Laurel's photo on the island and it made him fight to get back
• They're soulmates
• Some people think they have a lot of chemistry (and that's their right)
• They're best friends
• They challenge one another
• They're always there for each other and comfort one another when they need it
• They have history and clearly mean a lot to one another
• Laurel will always forgive Oliver

 

The problem with these is that I can easily pick apart each of these reasons and invalidate them so easily... I still don't get it :p 

[Chaser]

I came across one comment when comparing Oliver/Laurel and Oliver/Felicity that I think sums up pretty well the differences. Oliver and Laurel had the words, but not the actions. Oliver and Felicity lack the words, but have all the actions. We are told about one, but we are shown the other.

[Betweenthisandthat]

Just had to say, when it comes to Olicity, I'm the one struggling to find out what I'm supposed to see in these two.  I don't mind the idea of them and tried to get onboard when I started watching the show this summer.  Maybe if Olicity (and Felicity in general) weren't touted as everyone's favorites I would approach them differently as I think I liked Felicity more when she wasn't sold to me as the bestest thing ever.  It makes me expect more from the writing than I'm getting.  I still thinks she's great, but I'm not passionate about her, and after these first two episodes, Olicity has lost me.  I was dissapointed in the execution of their "relationship" or whatever it was at the time in the first episode.  I guess they were somewhere in between friends and lovers and now they're something else? 

 

I loved them as friends in the first two seasons but now they're written like every other will they/won't they romance I've seen on tv.  I initially loved that Felicity in the first seasons wasn't getting dragged into this angst that everyone else on the show has, and now I see that happening the more she's tied romantically to Oliver even if she's not with him.

 

It's just something about Olicity from what I've see in the first two episodes that's turning me off of the show.  Maybe it's also the death of Sara and Moira, who I miss so much as this matriarch grounding the show in a different way.  I miss Oliver on the island as well and I don't know how interested I am in this new set of flashbacks with him off the island.  The one saving grace relationship-wise in these first two episodes has been Ray and Felicity.  I love Ray.  We've barely seen him and the writers could ruin his character whenever they want, but I'd love for those two to get more scenes and to get closer.  He's got a great energy and I almost wish he was the main character, not Oliver.  I sympathize with Oliver on paper, but I feel done with him as a character, and maybe that in part is why Olicity leaves me cold.  Sorry.  I just had to vent.  I have lots of unpopular opinions on this show so I know I'm in the minority.  I know Olicity is loved the world over so I'm not trying to fight anyone or convince anyone otherwise, but I'm the odd bird who doesn't see it and is starting to resent the show for forcing it on me. 

 

And no, I'm not a Laurel and Oliver shipper.  I don't have it in me to ship Oliver with anyone at the moment.  The only couples I ship are Diggle and Lyla though I wish the show hadn't discarded of Carly so soon and Thea and Roy.  So I'm not trying to wage a shipping war of who Oliver should be with.  Honestly he shouldn't be with anyone until he learns to stop trying to be the leader on this solitary crusade; I don't think any woman is going to snap him out of that it's something he has to figure out on his own.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Betweenthisandthat

[Angel12d]

That's completely fair. Feel free to vent! Not everyone loves Olicity, although it probably doesn't help if you don't really like Felicity and/or Oliver. I couldn't really 'ship' a couple if I didn't care for the characters either.

 

But I totally understand the first two episodes haven't been the best execution and I'm not really liking this angst in their relationship either.

 

I think part of the problem is the time jump. We missed five whole months of build up so even those who aren't fans of the pairing are going 'well how the hell did this happen?' And it's kind of true. We went from them probably being in love but not wanting to accept or admit it in the s2 finale, all tentative in their touches and stuff, to full on flirting and touching and semi-confessions of love. It's totally believable to me as an Olicity fan that they would grow closer in those five months but I also needed/wanted to see it. I think that's why something doesn't feel quite right in the first two episodes, although I would argue that the time jump has affected everyone/everything, not just Olicity. 

 

I realize none of that is going to change your mind @Betweenthisandthat (and wasn't intended to) but even as an Olicity fan I do understand where you're coming from.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Angel12d

[wonderwall]

I tend not to let what everyone else thinks change how I think about something. IMO I think that's just silly and kind of petty (no offense). 

 

But I guess where I see why some people would be sort of disconnected from Olicity this season. Like Angel12d said, we skipped 5 months of delicious flirtation and them moving between best friends friends to romantic partners. After how we've seen them slowly move from acquaintances - boss/employee - friends - partners/besties/confidantes, it's a little jarring to see them jump to being romantic partners. 

 

But then again, this isn't the first time this has happened on Arrow. Almost every arc in season 3 is moving at warp speed and not just Olicity. I think this is why I've been mostly disconnected with the first two episodes and I hope that they slow down. The pacing is just really off with this season. While I adore Oliver/Felicity, I would've liked to have acclimated myself to seeing them be happy for a couple of episodes because it would've been more devastating when they broke up... And to be fair though, there was only one Olicity scene in episode 2 and I would hardly call it an Olicity scene :p It was more of a Felicity and Oliver scene (I hope that makes sense because in my head they mean two different things). 

 

As soon as Olicity was taken off the backburner and had been made into an A-plot for the season, they really sped things up for no reason other than to create that romantic drama that isn't exactly necessary since Sara's death is creating enough drama as it is. In fact, anything that's in the A-plot is usually fast paced and the writers really need to learn how to slow down. 

 

Regardless, now that they're broken up, I hope the season becomes less bipolar in regards to the overall tone and we actually see them develop as individuals and as a future couple. 

Edited October 18, 2014 by wonderwall

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

Olicity developed as if watching a house being built. We saw them dig the hole for the foundation and lay it. It set and instead of the walls slowly going up, the house was finished in a blink. The push to finish the house left us with an empty structure which might not be a shelter from the storm.

 

I not only feel robbed of seeing the progression, but I have zero belief they will come back to Oliver and Felicity again. They are pushing Ray and Felicity too hard despite the sketchiness of pursuit of her. It's borderline creepy mostly because we know he doesn't just want her for her brains. If there was zero chance he'd be romantically pursuing her, I might be able to swallow it. It'd be great for Oliver to see how Felicity is appreciated outside Team Arrow and Barry already provided the competition in the romance department.

[Angel12d]

Olicity developed as if watching a house being built. We saw them dig the hole for the foundation and lay it. It set and instead of the walls slowly going up, the house was finished in a blink. The push to finish the house left us with an empty structure which might not be a shelter from the storm.

 

I not only feel robbed of seeing the progression, but I have zero belief they will come back to Oliver and Felicity again. They are pushing Ray and Felicity too hard despite the sketchiness of pursuit of her. It's borderline creepy mostly because we know he doesn't just want her for her brains. If there was zero chance he'd be romantically pursuing her, I might be able to swallow it. It'd be great for Oliver to see how Felicity is appreciated outside Team Arrow and Barry already provided the competition in the romance department.

 

Agreed, to an extent. I do think they'll eventually return to Oliver and Felicity, especially after the way they were written in 301. They set that up as the romance of the show. I don't, however, think it will be done well. I have zero faith in the writers at this point. 

 

I do think they are pushing Ray/Felicity too hard though. And seeing lots of Olicity shippers jump on board with that while Oliver gets his act together I just feel like saying 'Be careful what you wish for!' If the EP's hear enough people wanting Felicity with Ray, then I have no doubt they'd use that to go back to their original O/L endgame. At least I wouldn't put it past them. As I said, zero trust. 

Edited October 18, 2014 by Angel12d

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

Agreed, to an extent. I do think they'll eventually return to Oliver and Felicity, especially after the way they were written in 301. They set that up as the romance of the show. I don't, however, think it will be done well. I have zero faith in the writers at this point. 

 

I do think they are pushing Ray/Felicity too hard though. And seeing lots of Olicity shippers jump on board with that while Oliver gets his act together I just feel like saying 'Be careful what you wish for!' If the EP's hear enough people wanting Felicity with Ray, then I have no doubt they'd use that to go back to their original O/L endgame. At least I wouldn't put it past them. As I said, zero trust. 

I think the bolded part is exactly why we might not return to Oliver and Felicity. If they can push Felicity into Ray's arms, they can return to their original game plan. Given how they are bumrushing ahead with Laurel becoming the BC despite fan response, I have no reason to believe we've seen the one and only attempt at Oliver and Felicity. TIIC can say "we tried and the story took us somewhere else." 

[Angel12d]

I think the bolded part is exactly why we might not return to Oliver and Felicity. If they can push Felicity into Ray's arms, they can return to their original game plan. Given how they are bumrushing ahead with Laurel becoming the BC despite fan response, I have no reason to believe we've seen the one and only attempt at Oliver and Felicity. TIIC can say "we tried and the story took us somewhere else." 

 

Well, when you put it that way you've got a point! It's just the logical part of me looks at everything that happened in 301 (and 302 to an extent) and wonders why they would even do all of that if it just went nowhere? There was light symbolism (which is pretty heavy in this show) and the whole thing about saying she was the first person he saw as an actual person. Even the fact that he confides in her willingly is a huge thing by Oliver Queen standards. Their story doesn't feel over. It feels like it's just beginning. 

 

Plus Ray doesn't really have a long term position on this show. On The Flash maybe but not Arrow and they'd never ship Felicity off to that show for longer than an episode. So I do see what you mean but at the same time I feel like there has to be a long term reason for the way they've written Olicity this season. But then that's maybe me putting misplaced faith in the writers again! 

Edited October 18, 2014 by Angel12d

[Chaser]

I'm actually surprised at the number of Olicity fans who were all excited about the Felicity and Ray relationship who are now backing off of it because of how aggressive Ray has been written. I'm really not concerned with fans jumping ship. About the writers ability to write a strong storyline? Yep. For Sure. But not the fans losing interest in the ship. 

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

Well, when you put it that way you've got a point! It's just the logical part of me looks at everything that happened in 301 (and 302 to an extent) and wonders why they would even do all of that if it just went nowhere? There was light symbolism (which is pretty heavy in this show) and the whole thing about saying she was the first person he saw as an actual person. Even the fact that he confides in her willingly is a huge thing by Oliver Queen standards. 

 

Plus Ray doesn't really have a long term position on this show. On The Flash maybe but not Arrow and they'd never ship Felicity off to that show for longer than an episode. So I do see what you mean but at the same time I feel like there has to be a long term reason for the way they've written Olicity this season. But then that's maybe me putting misplaced faith in the writers again! 

I really want to have your hope. I do. Everything about S3E1 was a billboard which screamed "Oliver loves Felicity, but he's a bonehead." 

 

If they'd maybe given us three or four episodes of them building to the date, I might have more hope. First episode they do their flirty-flirt. Second episode Oliver asks her on the date. Third is the date. Fourth is the repercussions. They'd have invested more time which I would expect a payout on. I feel like they threw the Olicity fans a bone and hoped they'd chew on it quietly in the corner while Laurel transforms.

 

ETA: I don't think Sara's story was over either. These writers aren't equipped for storytelling. They want to see moments and how we get from A to Z doesn't need to be logical. A, D, P, W, C, E, J, C.... until we reach Z. They need Laurel in fishnets so Sara must die. A to P to Z. 

Edited October 18, 2014 by AnalyzeAndCritique

[wonderwall]

I respectfully disagree with you @AnalyzeAndCritique. I feel like the writers are using Ray in order to develop Felicity, first as a boss, then as a romantic partner (and we don't even know to what extent he will be romantically involved with). While I hate that they can't just make Felicity an independent woman who doesn't need a man outside of Oliver, I understand why they would give Felicity an option of choosing between Ray and Oliver. 

 

So far, the reception for Ray as a love interest has been luke-warm. A lot of people think he's really creepy. This isn't exactly a foundation for a great romance :p And I'd also like to say that even though Felicity and Ray do get together and it somehow works, it doesn't fix the problem between Laurel and Oliver and how if they get together, a lot of people would lose respect for both of them. Like MG said, they write about what feels right in terms of chemistry, and they've made it clear that they don't see any between Oliver/Laurel. 

 

As for the Olicity fans who are excited about Ray/Felicity, most of them actually don't mind them, but eventually want Olicity to be endgame and they'd be pissed if that didn't happen :p 

[apinknightmare]

I'd be more worried about fans losing interest in the ship if they hadn't already given us a taste of it. Now we've seen Oliver being romantic with Felicity. We've seen him kiss her. We know he loves her. If there was still any question about feelings, yeah, maybe people would jump ship for Ray. They're pushing Ray and his chemistry hard because they know the interest in Oliver and Felicity drives a lot of the buzz about this show, and they've basically taken that away, leaving the spotlight on previously minor characters, and pushing a character arc featuring a not very popular character. So I think the push for Ray and Felicity's chemistry comes from, "look, this is pretty great too!, it'll tide you over until we get where we're going" instead of them trying to distract everyone so they can get Oliver and Laurel back together on the sly.

Edited October 18, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Angel12d]

I'm actually surprised at the number of Olicity fans who were all excited about the Felicity and Ray relationship who are now backing off of it because of how aggressive Ray has been written. I'm really not concerned with fans jumping ship. About the writers ability to write a strong storyline? Yep. For Sure. But not the fans losing interest in the ship. 

 

I'm more surprised at the amount of Olicity fans on tumblr rooting for Ray/Felicity, partly because I'd never ship O/F with anyone else and partly because I think Ray is a creepy stalker and I am really struggling to see the appeal! I feel like there's a complacency there because they're assuming Olicity are endgame so it's ok to want R/F for the foreseeable and I don't think you can be complacent on a show like this. Especially not when they've just killed Sara just so Laurel can become BC. 

 

I really want to have your hope. I do. Everything about S3E1 was a billboard which screamed "Oliver loves Felicity, but he's a bonehead." 

 

If they'd maybe given us three or four episodes of them building to the date, I might have more hope. First episode they do their flirty-flirt. Second episode Oliver asks her on the date. Third is the date. Fourth is the repercussions. They'd have invested more time which I would expect a payout on. I feel like they threw the Olicity fans a bone and hoped they'd chew on it quietly in the corner while Laurel transforms.

 

This. This is what I would have liked to have seen. Even a 2 hour premier would have been better. It's a shame the EP's just want to rush everything. I don't get it.

[statsgirl]

Do I think Brandon Routh will become second or third banana on a TV show?  Especially one on the CW?  Named for another superhero?  No.

 

Do I think the EPs are going to marry Felicity off to Ray Palmer, or kill her in the third season?  No.  To the general viewer, she's more important than Laurel and in spite of how it may appear, I don't actually think they want to tank their own show.  (All bets are off for the fourth season opener though)

I do think they are pushing Ray/Felicity too hard though. And seeing lots of Olicity shippers jump on board with that while Oliver gets his act together I just feel like saying 'Be careful what you wish for!' If the EP's hear enough people wanting Felicity with Ray, then I have no doubt they'd use that to go back to their original O/L endgame. At least I wouldn't put it past them. As I said, zero trust. 

I agree they are pushing Ray/Felicity very hard, and it's exactly why I hate third parties in the OTP story but most of the pushing has been done in interviews rather than on-screen right now.  It could change but for me part of the appeal of Ray is that finally someone is pursuing Felicity. She's not part of the furniture as she was for Oliver in s1, she's not second choice as she was for Barry, at last there is a desirable man who sees Felicity as desirable and as his first choice.  If she's going to end up choosing Oliver, she's got to have an 'A' level alternative.  I hate triangles but I also hate to see the woman in the pairing sitting alone at home while the guy is out oat-sewing. Poor Miss Moneypenny (Lois Maxwell's version).

 

And yes, I don't have much faith in the writers.  But I am  holding on to hope.

 

 

 

Does this look like Oliver's looking at Felicity? Because it does to me and it's like a punch in the gut because it sort of looks like Oliver wants to comfort her. 

 

JFC Stephen Amell...

If seeing Roy comfort Felicity and wishing he could be the one there for her is what caused Oliver to realize that he doesn't want to die down there, then there is hope.

Edited October 18, 2014 by statsgirl

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

I respectfully disagree with you @AnalyzeAndCritique. I feel like the writers are using Ray in order to develop Felicity, first as a boss, then as a romantic partner (and we don't even know to what extent he will be romantically involved with). While I hate that they can't just make Felicity an independent woman who doesn't need a man outside of Oliver, I understand why they would give Felicity an option of choosing between Ray and Oliver. 

 

So far, the reception for Ray as a love interest has been luke-warm. A lot of people think he's really creepy. This isn't exactly a foundation for a great romance :p And I'd also like to say that even though Felicity and Ray do get together and it somehow works, it doesn't fix the problem between Laurel and Oliver and how if they get together, a lot of people would lose respect for both of them. Like MG said, they write about what feels right in terms of chemistry, and they've made it clear that they don't see any between Oliver/Laurel. 

 

As for the Olicity fans who are excited about Ray/Felicity, most of them actually don't mind them, but eventually want Olicity to be endgame and they'd be pissed if that didn't happen :p 

:)  I see what you are saying. I respectfully ask at what point the writers realized the toxicity of Oliver and Laurel. There is a reason Katie is giving interviews and using the words "soul" and "mates" together. These same writers thought throwing Sara in a dumpster and then storing her in a freezer was a good idea.

 

Why does Felicity have to have a choice? She wouldn't love Oliver if Ray didn't show up so she could choose Oliver? I can't buy that. With the trend of Oliver being self-sacrificing, he'll lock his feelings down and encourage Felicity to be happy with Ray. Where is Felicity's choice? Felicity's choice was taken from her when Oliver shut it down. If Oliver isn't going to fight for her. why would Felicity think she has a choice? A choice is when I want to order dessert. If I'm being offered chocolate cake and raspberry cheesecake, it is only a choice if I choose one and it is available. If I chose the chocolate cake and was told it wasn't available, I can either take the cheesecake or nothing at all.

 

Also I don't believe these writers are talented enough to develop any characters. They won't choose to develop Felicity when they are fast forwarding through Laurel's journey to Black Canary. They needed a roadblock to Oliver and Felicity. Their opinion of putting a couple "together and pulling them apart" to create drama is why Ray has appeared. It is why Laurel and Tommy were together in Season 1. Oliver couldn't come back to an emotionally available Laurel. He came back to a woman in a relationship who hated him. Miraculously the hate and the boyfriend were gone so they could hit the sheets. Oliver and Felicity can't be together therefore Ray and a RPG blew them apart.

 

If the writers had a good track record, I'd be more confident and blindly follow along. However, they don't so I can't.  

[wonderwall]

If they'd maybe given us three or four episodes of them building to the date, I might have more hope. First episode they do their flirty-flirt. Second episode Oliver asks her on the date. Third is the date. Fourth is the repercussions. They'd have invested more time which I would expect a payout on. I feel like they threw the Olicity fans a bone and hoped they'd chew on it quietly in the corner while Laurel transforms.

 

Laurel Lance is still a very polarizing character and I honestly don't think that the writers are fixing Laurel. I wrote a post about it in the Laurel Lance tag, more people were excited about Laurel becoming BC and Laurel being more bad ass than Laurel the character. THey're more interested in the superhero than the character itself and that's why I'm not worried about the writers going the Lauriver route yet. 

 

I hope this season ends with Laurel leaving the show to go to Nanda Parbat in order to feel closer to Sara. I really do. 

[Sakura12]

You are not alone Betweenthisandthat, I'm not a huge fan of Olicity either. They can get together or not get together it makes no difference to me. I love Felicity and want her to have a life outside of Oliver and the Arrow cave. Not with Ray though because he's kind of a stalker and I hate the Twilight/50 Shades type of relationships. 

 

I like Oliver too and think he's not ready to be in a relationship, not because of the life he leads because he needs therapy to move past his many many issues. He'll never be great boyfriend material until he gets off his one man island of manpain. When he does then he can think about dating again. Maybe Felicity will still be available, maybe she won't. She shouldn't wait around for him forever, pretty much like she said she's not. 

 

But then again, I'm a strange one and don't really ship anyone on most of the shows I watch.

[KirkB]

You are not alone Betweenthisandthat, I'm not a huge fan of Olicity either. They can get together or not get together it makes no difference to me.

 

 

I'm right there with Sakura12 and Betweenthisandthat. While I can appreciate a good romance, it's not what I watch this particular show for. And the more the show becomes about that, regardless of the couple in question, the less interested I become.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Plenty of Olicity fans are furious over Ray; I've unfollowed a bunch of folks just because the hatred seems over the top. They're pretty much burning this guy in effigy online. I'm one of probably very few people who don't mind Ray.

 

I'm actually glad I find him entertaining (I know, weird taste) and I'm glad Brandon Routh and Emily Bett Rickards have good chemistry -- nowhere near level with SA, of course. Because the last thing I want is to have to fast-forward scenes featuring another character. I already do that with Laurel. And since all of his scenes so far are apparently with Felicity, I really, really don't want to skip them.

 

I can accept the aggressive pursuit as a business-hiring thing for now. No more stalking when he begins to woo her romantically, though. And I do want to see that romantic pursuit, or rather I want Oliver to see that. Boy needs to be shaken a bit more and rethink his life. I think that's what the writers are getting at. They'll mess it up, of course, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed they don't mess it up too badly.

[wonderwall]

Why does Felicity have to have a choice? She wouldn't love Oliver if Ray didn't show up so she could choose Oliver? I can't buy that. With the trend of Oliver being self-sacrificing, he'll lock his feelings down and encourage Felicity to be happy with Ray. Where is Felicity's choice? Felicity's choice was taken from her when Oliver shut it down. If Oliver isn't going to fight for her. why would Felicity think she has a choice? A choice is when I want to order dessert. If I'm being offered chocolate cake and raspberry cheesecake, it is only a choice if I choose one and it is available. If I chose the chocolate cake and was told it wasn't available, I can either take the cheesecake or nothing at all.

 

Also I don't believe these writers are talented enough to develop any characters. They won't choose to develop Felicity when they are fast forwarding through Laurel's journey to Black Canary. They needed a roadblock to Oliver and Felicity. Their opinion of putting a couple "together and pulling them apart" to create drama is why Ray has appeared. It is why Laurel and Tommy were together in Season 1. Oliver couldn't come back to an emotionally available Laurel. He came back to a woman in a relationship who hated him. Miraculously the hate and the boyfriend were gone so they could hit the sheets. Oliver and Felicity can't be together therefore Ray and a RPG blew them apart.

First I'd like to say that when it comes to Felicity, I trust the writers a little more than I trust them with anything else. It's obvious they adore her. They always know how to handle Felicity, they always make her say the right things, react in character... They've always (for the most part) made the right choices regarding Felicity's character. Like in season 2, she could've easily been jealous of Sara and Oliver but she wasn't, instead they made Felicity feel insecure about her place on the team and her worthiness which further deepened her character. They made her strong in regards to sticking it to Moira Queen who was the most powerful woman on the show (may she rest in peace). Instead of moping about not being with Oliver after the first episode of season 3 they made her be the strong one and walk away from Oliver. Instead of falling further down the rabbit hole in episode 2, they made her realize that she wants a life, thus branching out her character. 

 

They've triumphed with Felicity while they've failed Laurel. I'm not concerned with where they take her character regarding Ray because Felicity has and will always have the best content. The writers won't fail Felicity. And by extension, I don't think they'll fail Oliver/Felicity the way they did Oliver/Laurel. 

 

As for why Felicity needs to have a choice... I guess I'm in the minority here when I say I love that she has a choice. I think there's something romantic and powerful in saying "I don't need you, but I really, really want you to be a part of my life, to be with me. I could choose anyone in this world but I choose you because you make me happy, because I trust you, and because I love you". It not only shows how independent Felicity is, but it also shows how deeply she loves Oliver. This is way more powerful than the whole 'meant to be' crap. 

Edited October 18, 2014 by wonderwall