Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[TrueMyth]

Sounds good, @BkWurm1.  Donna's return can be popping up at Felicity's just as she's trying to invite Oliver in for a nightcap.  I know it starts to sound like a farce, but it turns out the real villain of the season is future Barry using crazy Rube-Goldberg-like time manipulations to slip under the radar of LoT to try and stop the conception of the beautiful genius hero who will eventually defeat him.

*sigh*

I really hate the way the "everybody dies" cliffhanger curbs spoilers.  My spec is wild and untamed.

Edited August 20, 2017 by TrueMyth

[SmallScreenDiva]

I think I've seen a similar pitch in tweets: Oliver & Felicity trying to either have sex or set up a date night and are foiled many times by co-workers, teammates, family members (Donna? Thea?). It could be played for laughs but also highlight the challenge of figuring out how to be together given how busy their professional lives (Felicity with her company; Oliver with City Hall) are supposed to be. 

[bijoux]

While those scenarios are fun and I've read fics with them, in all honesty, I don't find it that believable. Oliver and Felicity are not a very demonstrative couple in public. Their closeness and attraction is more than obvious, but I can only remember them kissing in front of others a few times - Barry telling Oliver to kiss Felicity in S4 crossover, proposal, on Lian Yu in 523 - and those were all tame kisses. They actually come off as pretty private to me and so the one time period where I find it completely believable for them to have had sex in a (semi-)public space is the summer of love, when they were on such a high. And that would be during their travles, not with their nearest and dearest barging in.

Which is a long winded way of saying that I find them being interrupted in their own, or one of their homes the believable scenario.

[Mellowyellow]

I'm excited to learn more about them as a couple in canon which is why I shake my fist at the idea that an established couple is boring and at the bloody notion of the moonlight curse. 

I used to think they would be private but that proposal was very public and actually not what I expected from Oliver (I adored it but it surprised me). I'm really looking forward to what they'll show us in the later seasons when they've been together for a while and hopefully stable. EBR and SA can sell anything so it's going to be a squeeeee fest as long as they're together!!!!!

[bijoux]

In a normal set of circumstances I would not expect that sort of proposal at all, but exactly what Oliver had originally planned, quiet and intimate. This came directly after Felicity was almost gassed to death and I think that context is everything here. 

[BkWurm1]

17 hours ago, TrueMyth said:

I really hate the way the "everybody dies" cliffhanger curbs spoilers.  My spec is wild and untamed.

 

Lol, I'm right there with you.  I've slipped into crack spec.  It's entertaining at least.  

[statsgirl]

From the previous page:

On 2017-08-19 at 4:57 PM, BkWurm1 said:

I think eventually Dinah is going to hear ALL the details of their love life (cause Felicity needs a girlfriend in Star City and she'd want to brag and get suggestions for more fun) but I would be shocked if Oliver did more than grin like a man with a smug secret over Felicity's more kinky side.  I do not see Oliver now as one that would kiss and tell.  Now OLLIE, that duouchebro,  probably filled in Tommy about every fling he had.  I'm less certain of how he'd have spoken about Laurel.  Part of me is inclined to say he didn't talk about their sex life but part of that isn't out of respect but boredom, lol.  

Dinah may be the recipient because of Felicity's lack of filter too.

I'm sure Ollie boasted a lot but I'm wondering how much he told Tommy about his relationship with Laurel.  Oliver probably didn't have a clue that Tommy was in love with Laurel.  I wonder if he boasted to Tommy about her.  Poor Tommy, never good enough.

[tv echo]

I saw this tweeted elsewhere and thought it worth posting - from the Urban Dictionary...

Quote

olicity

A term used to define the romantic pairing of Oliver Queen and Felicity Smoak in the CW's television show Arrow. It is a popular ship among the fans.

"Olicity are perfect"

#arrow#oliver#felicity#ship#oliciters

by Olicty_Lover November 22, 2013

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=olicity

Edited August 30, 2017 by tv echo

[TrueMyth]

It's cute, but the noun verb agreement makes me cringe.  I know fandom conventions are a bit up in the air, but I always see ship names as collective singular nouns.  Olicity is perfect.  Oliver Queen and Felicity Smoak are a perfect couple.

/personal grammar rant

[wonderwall]

I love this

[LeighAn]

Ive been rewatching season 5 and I'm not sure if I caught on about this at the time but in hindsight to their issues aired out in 5x19-5x20 Oliver and Felicity's argument over breaking John out of prison was subtext for them arguing about their own relationship issues. 

ETA: and I still miss Rory and Felicity's friendship. It's a traversty that the writers found Rene Curtis and Dinah as more useful characters then Rory ?

 

ETA 2: Also I like the call back that Oliver threatens a Russian dudes wife and daughter in 5x04 and Felicity ends up threatening another Russian dudes family in 5x12. 

Edited October 8, 2017 by LeighAn

[JamieLynn832002]

So agree with you about Rory. He was by far the best of the newbies and his friendship with Felicity was great. I hope he comes back at some point, even if it's not permanently, I would like to see that he's okay/happy and if he fixed the rags. 

[BkWurm1]

7 hours ago, LeighAn said:

Ive been rewatching season 5 and I'm not sure if I caught on about this at the time but in hindsight to their issues aired out in 5x19-5x20 Oliver and Felicity's argument over breaking John out of prison was subtext for them arguing about their own relationship issues.

How so?

[Hiveminder]

10 hours ago, LeighAn said:

Ive been rewatching season 5 and I'm not sure if I caught on about this at the time but in hindsight to their issues aired out in 5x19-5x20 Oliver and Felicity's argument over breaking John out of prison was subtext for them arguing about their own relationship issues. 

 

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

How so?

I’d like to know too. I’d believe it, but I’m not making the connection (haven’t watched the episodes in a while, and no intention of doing so.). 

[statsgirl]

I can think of one way -- in both cases Oliver didn't really give Felicity a say in the decisions.  He didn't tell her about William's existence, and he didn't give her a chance to discuss the decision to break Diggle out of prison or make her arguments.  Are we surprised that he was wrong both times? 

11 hours ago, JamieLynn832002 said:

So agree with you about Rory. He was by far the best of the newbies and his friendship with Felicity was great. I hope he comes back at some point, even if it's not permanently, I would like to see that he's okay/happy and if he fixed the rags. 

It's funny how Rory caught on with the audience far more than the characters they wanted to keep on the team. 

I also appreciate that they gave Felicity her own friends (unlike a certain other Arrowverse show).  Her friendship with Curtis was one of the best things in s4, until they ruined him in s5, and while she and Rory never really got a chance to talk about Havenrock, their boding over being Jewish and their team-up in Russia was enjoyable to watch.  I hope he comes back too.

[way2interested]

9 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

It's funny how Rory caught on with the audience far more than the characters they wanted to keep on the team. 

I also appreciate that they gave Felicity her own friends (unlike a certain other Arrowverse show).  Her friendship with Curtis was one of the best things in s4, until they ruined him in s5, and while she and Rory never really got a chance to talk about Havenrock, their boding over being Jewish and their team-up in Russia was enjoyable to watch.  I hope he comes back too.

I think the interesting thing about Rory was that he was less of a character and more of a bouncing board for characters' thoughts and feelings, ergo we like him because he allows characters we already know a chance to express themselves. For example, his introduction in 502 allowed Oliver to express his feelings about his crusade and gave a reaction from Felicity over the guilt from Havenrock. Then, Rory was then relegated to support mostly in the form of a soundboard off of Felicity's actions and feelings (503, 504, 510-512, kind of similar to how Curtis was used in s4) or a pseudo-audience surrogate for joining the team or reacting to the other newbies. Because he was automatically regulated as support and because he immediately had emotional connections to both Oliver and Felicity, he was already made more endearing than Rene (who was introduced mostly as symbolic for Oliver's need to trust a team and was going against the main characters early on), Evelyn (who only had plot connections and no real actual emotional connections), and Curtis (who was a series regular and was then pushed to try to have a more independent role in the narrative rather than stay supporting, ironic since he was basically re-regulated to supporting anyway).

Although, since the writers immediately made Rory supporting compared to Rene who they wanted to push, Evelyn who they wanted a plot twist for, and Curtis who was a series regular, they didn't feel the need to work on him or try to really develop him beyond reactionary, which ironically made him more endearing than the characters they were actually working on. 

[tangerine95]

Yeah I think Rory being so well received had to do with him being used for mostly Felicity and sometimes Oliver to express their thoughts and feelings.He was really a supporting character in a way none of the other newbies were.Tho I also think the actor was pretty good and had great chemistry with both Felicity and Oliver and that really helped make him likable.

Imo that's how you introduce a character in a show this established,have him create bonds with the main cast,tie him to a main characters storyline or some big season plot point but don't make him a huge focus right from the start and don't have main characters playing supporting roles to him.I really think that way a character earns his spot and then next season I'm more open to seeing storylines about him.That's how it sort of was with Curtis in season 4 and I was looking forward to him in season 5 but they messed that up by not giving him an actual purpose on the team and just having him take over other characters roles so he has something to do.

[DrSpaceman10]

Rory worked for me because he added a new dynamic to the team. Curtis, Rene and Tinah are just lame copies of Felicity, Oliver and Diggle imo. 

[LeighAn]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

I can think of one way -- in both cases Oliver didn't really give Felicity a say in the decisions.  He didn't tell her about William's existence, and he didn't give her a chance to discuss the decision to break Diggle out of prison or make her arguments.  Are we surprised that he was wrong both times? 

Yep Felicity turns the conversation into how Olivers always making decisions for other people and not letting them have a say or a choice and that he doesn't listen to them and what they want. She also brings up Oliver being a liar aand that she admires his consistency (about breaking into palmer tech) to which he gets super defensive about and tells her he wasn't lying to her but wasn't looping her in because he knows she doesn't approve of his decisions which is also could be a call back to the fact that Felicity really didn't seem to approve of Oliver sending William away but couldn't say anything until after the fact.

 

I just think rewatching the scene within the broader scope of the season as it played out and the way Emily and Stephen played the scene that they were arguing about more then just this one specific decision. 

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, LeighAn said:

She also brings up Oliver being a liar aand that she admires his consistency (about breaking into palmer tech) to which he gets super defensive about and tells her he wasn't lying to her but wasn't looping her in because he knows she doesn't approve of his decisions which is also could be a call back to the fact that Felicity really didn't seem to approve of Oliver sending William away but couldn't say anything until after the fact.

Nice catch to the parallel.  

[tofutan]

Somebody in the spoiler thread I think was saying that because cheesy over the top true love exists on Flash with Westallen, that must mean that it exists on Arrow too since it's the same universe. 

I have to say, I never saw it that way. 

Now it's not like I would have a huge problem if Arrrow decided they wanted to do that approach to love too, but I also wouldn't feel like there was anything missing if they didn't and instead stuck with the "we want to be a bit more gritty and emotionally messy" approach. Either one works fine for me (after all it's not like Arrow stuck to its guns of trying to be more realistic with the introduction of magic and metas). 

To me the shows still all have their own vibes (like how on Supergirl aliens are like, really, really, really common in the city even outside of Supergirl herself) so I don't see how "must have this approach to true love" as something that has to be shared across all shows. Like, I don't really see that being a great fit for Legends either. (yes I know Legends had like Hawkman and Hawkgirl but that was heavily underplayed compared)

[BkWurm1]

I think every couple decides what they believe when it comes to love so it's not so much show to show but couple to couple.  I do think that if Arrow wants to pull a "meant to be" angle with Olicity, they have the fuel.  Just little things they've tossed in the flashbacks set that up but they also have all the makings of selling their love as being together because they refuse to let each other go and that's pretty damn romantic.  Honestly, I don't think they have to be one or the other.  I'm good with them being all things but at different times. :D

[Mellowyellow]

11 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I think every couple decides what they believe when it comes to love so it's not so much show to show but couple to couple.  I do think that if Arrow wants to pull a "meant to be" angle with Olicity, they have the fuel.  Just little things they've tossed in the flashbacks set that up but they also have all the makings of selling their love as being together because they refuse to let each other go and that's pretty damn romantic.  Honestly, I don't think they have to be one or the other.  I'm good with them being all things but at different times. :D

My romantic soul agrees with you 888% and this is why I adore writing fanfic about them.

You can channel whatever style of romance depending on the mood and there is enough evidence to back it up. 

When I watch them in the show I usually lean towards "refuse to let each other go" especially because of their teamwork, support and faith in each other.

However Oliver's smitten face and heart eyes present a strong destiny argument (and I'll admit I'm biased to this when I'm dealing with fanfic). 

Omg it's impossible to lose with Olicity *squeals like a banshee*

[LeighAn]

Did anyone catch on in 5x08 100th that in the scene where Oliver comes to Laurel while she's in her wedding dress that they not only repeat the scene where Oliver asks Felicity what they are waiting for in getting married but he also repeats lines from his fake wedding vows to Felicity. He says a line to Laurel about spending the rest of his life making it up to her (his strange behaviour) being a good man which I'm almost positive he says to Felicity or some variation in his vows. Another instance of the aliens hijacking memories of his life with Felicity to use to brainwash and trap him into marriage with FakeLaurel.

[lemotomato]

3 hours ago, tofutan said:

Somebody in the spoiler thread I think was saying that because cheesy over the top true love exists on Flash with Westallen, that must mean that it exists on Arrow too since it's the same universe. 

I have to say, I never saw it that way. 

Now it's not like I would have a huge problem if Arrrow decided they wanted to do that approach to love too, but I also wouldn't feel like there was anything missing if they didn't and instead stuck with the "we want to be a bit more gritty and emotionally messy" approach. Either one works fine for me (after all it's not like Arrow stuck to its guns of trying to be more realistic with the introduction of magic and metas). 

To me the shows still all have their own vibes (like how on Supergirl aliens are like, really, really, really common in the city even outside of Supergirl herself) so I don't see how "must have this approach to true love" as something that has to be shared across all shows. Like, I don't really see that being a great fit for Legends either. (yes I know Legends had like Hawkman and Hawkgirl but that was heavily underplayed compared)

By "cheesy over the top true love" do you mean predestined to be together? 

Because if that's what you meant, I actually like that the Oliver and Felicity romance was never guaranteed to happen just because (comics). They had to work for it. That allowed the audience to see it grow from from friendship to something more, endure through a false start, other love interests, near death experiences, breakup, makeup. There were no shortcuts where we're just told why they should be together. We get to see how they earned what they have. 

[tofutan]

I don't think that based on the comics is the only way you can have cheesy over the top stuff. Like, Clana are not together in the comics, but stuff like let's say Clark losing his memory and instantly falling in love with Lana again the moment he sees her. Or the whole "true loves kiss" stuff they did with both Westallen and Karamel in the musical crossover. 

I don't always hate it, it depends on the couple and sometimes you just like cheesy. But you gotta admit that that is laying it on kinda thick. 

It's more of a flavor thing, sometimes you like something more down to earth and sometimes you are in the mood for some romantic cheese. 

IF Arrow decided not to lean too heavily on the whole cosmic love stuff, I don't think that it would lessen them just because some of the couples in the Arrowverse have that. I think it would just be their won show flavor. 

[LeighAn]

Omg Stephen could not have said the line "the dress you're wearing makes up for it" to Susan about being late in 5x09 with any less enthusiasm. It was like he was telling someone the time or something ?

 

Though it makes a nice connect with Felicity's total lack of enthusiasm and awkwardness about being at a public event with Billy.

 

Also totally sad callback to Curtis and Paul meeting Billy at a holiday party to Felicity and Oliver meeting Paul at the holiday party the year before ?

[bijoux]

Are you doing a rewatch of entire season 5?

[LeighAn]

7 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Are you doing a rewatch of entire season 5?

Yes. Wish me luck haha. It's actually not that painful to sit through the second time around. Like I remember feeling queasy watching the 5x05 Olicity scenes for instance the first time but I found them easier the second time. Same with all the O/L scenes in the 100th. Plus you get little insights you didn't see or missed the first time.

 

For instance another little thing I appreciate and loved that I don't know that I really did when it aired was that in 5x09 I really liked that when Felicity starts raging that men never listen that Oliver has a little moment just before he goes off to fight Prometheus where he tells Felicity that men never listen because their stubborn. The fact that he took that moment to give her an answer I choose to believe was him talking about an answer on behalf himself and him never listening to her enough when they were together.

 

I also think that the writers dialled Felicity's rambling in 5A way up then they ever did  in past seasons. Like almost a little OTT. 

[bijoux]

?This is excellent, sonce then I can bug you about stuff I've forgotten once the new season starts.

I never actually minded 509 myself, at least not the alien mind rape part, I just wished for the real world part of the episode had been handled differently.

[SmallScreenDiva]

14 hours ago, LeighAn said:

Did anyone catch on in 5x08 100th that in the scene where Oliver comes to Laurel while she's in her wedding dress that they not only repeat the scene where Oliver asks Felicity what they are waiting for in getting married but he also repeats lines from his fake wedding vows to Felicity. He says a line to Laurel about spending the rest of his life making it up to her (his strange behaviour) being a good man which I'm almost positive he says to Felicity or some variation in his vows. Another instance of the aliens hijacking memories of his life with Felicity to use to brainwash and trap him into marriage with FakeLaurel.

Oliver repeats a lot of Olicity lines during his brainwashed sequences with FakeLaurel. And FL repeats Felicity lines, too. Like in the very first scene when she says "I think I already answered that and flashes her ring." That's almost verbatim what Felicity said when Oliver wanted to move up the wedding. I got what the show was trying to do but I wish they clarified it better and put the brainwashing explanation on Arrow.

And time hasn't quite lessened my annoyance with the 100th ep. There's just too much of the characters I'm not fond of and too little of the characters AND interactions I do love. I'll never forgive them for giving OTA one measly scene. 

Edited to take out insulting words because I realized they were too broad when I was specifically referring to viewers who insist 100th was the rekindling of the Lauriver romance. 

Edited October 9, 2017 by SmallScreenDiva
Clarification

[lemotomato]

Most of the time I want Arrow to end after season 7, but the 100th episode was such an insult that part of me wants Arrow to make it to 200 episodes so we can get a do over.

[insomniadreams88]

3 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Most of the time I want Arrow to end after season 7, but the 100th episode was such an insult that part of me wants Arrow to make it to 200 episodes so we can get a do over.

I sometimes want that. But then I worry what they'd come up with for episode 200 and which relationships they could choose to highlight for it. 

[Angel12d]

I'd love to know if repeating Olicity lines was intentional. I hope it was but with these writers you just don't know. Half the time I wonder if they remember what they've already written. Haha.

5 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Most of the time I want Arrow to end after season 7, but the 100th episode was such an insult that part of me wants Arrow to make it to 200 episodes so we can get a do over.

I hated the 100th so much but no, please no. They'll ruin everything I enjoy even more before we even reach the 200th episode. 

[calliope1975]

7 hours ago, LeighAn said:

Another instance of the aliens hijacking memories of his life with Felicity to use to brainwash and trap him into marriage with FakeLaurel.

Which is another thing that makes no sense about the 100th. If the aliens wanted him to question nothing and stay in dreamworld forever, they would have made him marry Felicity. Granted, that would have made the aliens win since Oliver would have been all over that and questioned nothing, but still. TPTP tried to make it a what if Oliver never got on the boat combined with what the aliens thought he wanted, and it turned into a mess. 

[Chaser]

Did anyone  watch the 100th feature on the DVD? I was really hoping they would spell out the Olicity influence but I haven't heard anything on twitter. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

17 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I'd love to know if repeating Olicity lines was intentional. I hope it was but with these writers you just don't know. Half the time I wonder if they remember what they've already written. Haha.

They were too similar and there were too many not to be intentional.

This whole idea of using Laurel as the woman who would keep Oliver content in the fake world is too hilarious. Those aliens sure are not very bright. They managed to grab memories of the conversations but got the woman entirely wrong? And it wasn't a do-over or a "what if" like the EPs and promos tried to sell, it was a brainwashing as Oliver said himself in the LOT episode. The episode was rather pro-Olicity but again the execution was stupid as hell.

[Angel12d]

54 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

They were too similar and there were too many not to be intentional.

This whole idea of using Laurel as the woman who would keep Oliver content in the fake world is too hilarious. Those aliens sure are not very bright. They managed to grab memories of the conversations but got the woman entirely wrong? And it wasn't a do-over or a "what if" like the EPs and promos tried to sell, it was a brainwashing as Oliver said himself in the LOT episode. The episode was rather pro-Olicity but again the execution was stupid as hell.

That's what I initially thought, especially the way alien delusion!Laurel holds up her ring finger and says "I thought I already answered that question." Felicity did the exact same thing in s4. So I can see that as an Olicity fan. But to fans who perhaps don't remember everything Olicity have said/done to each other, I don't think it was quite obvious enough, IMO. 

IDK, I just hate that episode so much and it threw Lauriver fans a massive bone and made them think Oliver is still in love with Laurel, when really it should've put everything to rest. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

5 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

So I can see that as an Olicity fan. But to fans who perhaps don't remember everything Olicity have said/done to each other, I don't think it was quite obvious enough, IMO. 

Totally agree. And that's where my problem with the execution comes in ... the show didn't make it clear enough that that is what's happening, that Oliver was being brainwashed and that the memories were from his relationship with Felicity. Again, the writers got caught up in trying to be "clever" but failed to get their message across.

[DrSpaceman10]

1 minute ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Totally agree. And that's where my problem with the execution comes in ... the show didn't make it clear enough that that is what's happening, that Oliver was being brainwashed and that the memories were from his relationship with Felicity. Again, the writers got caught up in trying to be "clever" but failed to get their message across.

I think the repeated lines were intentional, but I don't think they were meant to be a callback to Olicity specifically, just to prior scenes in Arrow. I also think the 100th episode was a product of Season 5 (focus on comic canon over the show's own history, pretty much ignoring OTA/Olicity, etc.). If the 100th episode had happened in Season 4, I think it would have been a lot different. 

For me, everything involving the 100th episode (including the party) is a garbage fire. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

5 minutes ago, DrSpaceman10 said:

I think the repeated lines were intentional, but I don't think they were meant to be a callback to Olicity specifically, just to prior scenes in Arrow. I also think the 100th episode was a product of Season 5 (focus on comic canon over the show's own history, pretty much ignoring OTA/Olicity, etc.). If the 100th episode had happened in Season 4, I think it would have been a lot different. 

For me, everything involving the 100th episode (including the party) is a garbage fire. 

There were other callbacks to previous seasons with other characters — Thea with the hosen and some other dialogue from Moira that I can't exactly remember (beautiful boy?) so I do think these were meant to call back specifically to Olicity. But the fact that some viewers, like you, didn't take it as such just underscores to me how much the show bungled that episode. 

[statsgirl]

,,,,,

2 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Oliver repeats a lot of Olicity lines during his brainwashed sequences with FakeLaurel. And FL repeats Felicity lines, too. Like in the very first scene when she says "I think I already answered that and flashes her ring." That's almost verbatim what Felicity said when Oliver wanted to move up the wedding. I got what the show was trying to do but I wish they clarified it better and put the brainwashing explanation on Arrow because some viewers who only see what they want to see and who don't seem to have critical comprehension skills took those scenes way differently.

I tend to think that MG and WM did that on purpose, thinking that it was going to reinforce Olicity as the OTP because Oliver was replaying his interactions with  Felicity in his head even though the aliens gave him Laurel as his happy ending.  Instead it angered Olicity fans like me who thought that they were mocking the relationship or at least saying that Laurel was supposed to be Oliver's true love.  WM and MG tend to be clueless like that.

9 hours ago, lemotomato said:

 I actually like that the Oliver and Felicity romance was never guaranteed to happen just because (comics). They had to work for it. That allowed the audience to see it grow from from friendship to something more, endure through a false start, other love interests, near death experiences, breakup, makeup. There were no shortcuts where we're just told why they should be together. We get to see how they earned what they have. 

Same here.  It ended up with a much better written story and a better experience for me than 'destined to be together'.

[tangerine95]

I can't even take the 100th episode seriously as anything other than fanservice as much as I hate that word.Something like seeing a totally different version of his life where people who died were alive,he didn't know half of his closest friends,his sister wanted to stay there forever etc would have an impact on how Oliver behaved after and would have served as some kind of wake up call.Instead he goes on to live as he did all season 5,dates a random he didn't seem that into,isn't alarmed about Thea until she gets Susan fired even tho she was legit about to stay on alien spaceship forever rather than face reality,never even talks to anyone about it.No wonder SA said it's an episode you could skip and it wouldn't make a difference on the season.

I think in any other season after season 1 it would be Felicity he was marrying and that the only reason it was Laurel was that they wanted to throw her fans a bone after they killed her off and imo were totally planning on not having her show up again after season 5.They probably knew olicity fans will be pissed but that they'll get a olicity reunion by the end of the season and a real wedding the next season so they thought it wouldn't matter.Imo the people who thought that meant he was still in love with LL were the ones who thought that all along anyway.

[TrueMyth]

I'm a huge Olicity fan and have passing fair comprehension skills and I still have no idea what they were trying to say about Oliver's mental state in 5x08.  The Olicity lines from Lauriver's mouth are so very odd.  I'd chalk them up to coincident, lazy "love interest" writing except (1) so many lines!  How did they miss it? and (2) Stephen Mr.-It-Was-Red Amell would have said something if it wasn't explained to him as intentional.  But what it means that they did it is obtuse.

Now, I do lean to an ultimate pro-Olicity interpretation under a veil of breadcrumbs for those who want to see the classic comic pairing.  I think the strongest argument is that Smoak Tech was the gateway home. However, even this is murky as fuck because of the jumbled minds the dream world was based on.  Because the aliens are too cheap to construct individual realities for each abductee, we get three seemingly distinct Felicity Smoaks: 1) Ray's fiancée, 2) Green Arrow Diggle's partner, and 3) Faceless CEO of Smoak Tech (ST).  None of these personas have surface level emotional value for Oliver, except for ST being a beacon of discordant hope (which makes no sense because why would the aliens make such a symbolic and glaring exit point)?

Ugh.  I'm trying to clarify my issues with reading OTP vibes into the episode for either couple, but it is so hard not to be distracted or tangled by all the stupid choices.

Basically, it makes no sense to have ST there within the narrative.  It is only on the meta-narrative level -- where Felicity represents salvation, reality, perseverance -- that it makes sense, and the fact that Oliver is the first to see it and recognize it for what it was is romantic in my mind.

That said, it would have worked so much better if: 1) Felicity in the real world was broadcasting a signal from the start that somehow disrupted the alien projection...thus giving a narrative reason for the ST building, 2) every mind had their OWN dream world and Oliver's was the first to break because he knew "something is missing," 3) He then breaks into everyone else's dream to save them, and some of them pull him in different ways, the program trying to fight him so that, 4) we still get the awesome Queen family scenes, but 5) others tell him they can leave Thea and take her body when they are out therefore making his willingness to abandon her there a little more okay, 6) Laurel's last ditch attempt to pull him back becomes a twisted version of Sara and Oliver's Laurel but Oliver still gets to voice his guilt over her and 7) Oliver busts in on Ray with Ray!Felicity who then had a total spaz flipping between both Ray and Oliver in a way that is clear that Oliver is moved by her but that they both have very different ideas of who she is, and finally 8) could still have had the big fight that some fans wanted, but set it in the ST lobby.

I'm such a fan of this type of story done well.  Farscape did multiple excellent versions. The fact that the bungling happened for the 100th is so, so frustrating.

[Angel12d]

13 minutes ago, TrueMyth said:

Now, I do lean to an ultimate pro-Olicity interpretation under a veil of breadcrumbs for those who want to see the classic comic pairing.  I think the strongest argument is that Smoak Tech was the gateway home. However, even this is murky as fuck because of the jumbled minds the dream world was based on.  Because the aliens are too cheap to construct individual realities for each abductee, we get three seemingly distinct Felicity Smoaks: 1) Ray's fiancée, 2) Green Arrow Diggle's partner, and 3) Faceless CEO of Smoak Tech (ST).  None of these personas have surface level emotional value for Oliver, except for ST being a beacon of discordant hope (which makes no sense because why would the aliens make such a symbolic and glaring exit point)?

Ugh.  I'm trying to clarify my issues with reading OTP vibes into the episode for either couple, but it is so hard not to be distracted or tangled by all the stupid choices.

Basically, it makes no sense to have ST there within the narrative.  It is only on the meta-narrative level -- where Felicity represents salvation, reality, perseverance -- that it makes sense, and the fact that Oliver is the first to see it and recognize it for what it was is romantic in my mind.

I always viewed it as Smoak Tech being Oliver's way to break out of the delusion (because yes, Felicity is the light and guide home). So that was his brain's way of fighting through rather than the aliens putting it there.

IDK, now I'm confused. Haha.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Angel12d

[bijoux]

@TrueMyth, I'm not sure what you mean about surface level emotional value?

[LeighAn]

13 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I always viewed it as Smoak Tech being Oliver's way to break out of the delusion (because yes, Felicity is the light and guide home). So that was his brain's way of fighting through rather than the aliens putting it there.

IDK, now I'm confused. Haha.

Yeah I took it as being his brain and the others creating it to get out of the mind warp. Although I do like @TrueMyth idea of it being Felicity who was trying to signal and reach Oliver and the others. I'd wished they'd done that as it would not only make it a little more romantic on Olicitys end but it would have been a much better way to include Felicity into the 100th and give her something of value to do rather then that lame cyber robot or whatever they were all fighting on the side. Like legit I just watched that episode yesterday and I don't remember what they were all doing in the other plot.

[bijoux]

That is my biggest complaint about the execution of the 100th after the storyline was decided. I just wished Felicity's appearances in the deam world to be instances of real Felicity managing to find cracks in the aliens' firewall. It would have kept her more active and engaged in that storyline than cracking funny with the B team while a good chunk of her own team was kidnapped by aliens! 

And having her meet them up on the Waverider.

[BkWurm1]

14 hours ago, LeighAn said:

 

I also think that the writers dialed Felicity's rambling in 5A way up than they ever did in past seasons. Like almost a little OTT. 

 

Yeah, I remember thinking in 5A Felicity frequently came off really fake and forced in her jokes and rambles. I started wondering if it was intentional to show that things were not really alright.  So we had Oliver just showing no emotion after he found out about Billy and Felicity desperately trying to fill the silence and pretend everything was fine.  

[Angel12d]

Felicity was like that because all the fanboys complained and wanted her to go back to her s1 self and be nothing but comic relief again. That's all it meant, IMO. 

I hate!