Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[foreverevolving]

I read the whole thing last night (after telling myself I wouldn't start any new ones that were "in progress" because the waiting kills me!).

 

This Ain't Love (It's Clear To See)  http://archiveofourown.org/works/1745657?view_full_work=true

oh! i've been definitely been reading that one! smoaknarrow stories are amazing. i am addicted to "Sins"

[Lisin]

Hey gang, we have a fanfic topic here. Lets keep this topic to actual show relationships. Thanks. 

[Password]

http://youtu.be/rR1wl_ruu04?list=PLSw-G-mwHaGE4DGNLEe7lV_75Woco7reJ

 

This is such a genuinely wonderful Olicity scene. I don't even remember it but this is probably one of the biggest reasons why wanting Felicity and Oliver to end up together makes so much sense. He really is very different and gentle with her. This is the Oliver Queen I love. Damage and all.

[Angel12d]

http://youtu.be/rR1wl_ruu04?list=PLSw-G-mwHaGE4DGNLEe7lV_75Woco7reJ

 

This is such a genuinely wonderful Olicity scene. I don't even remember it but this is probably one of the biggest reasons why wanting Felicity and Oliver to end up together makes so much sense. He really is very different and gentle with her. This is the Oliver Queen I love. Damage and all.

 

I love that little scene too. His whole demeanor changes around Felicity. He softens, even his voice, when talking only to her. The way they support each other and talk things through and have this implicit understanding of each other makes them easy to root for. I hope they don't lose this element in s3 amid all the angst of them loving each other but not being together. 

[wonderwall]

Is this from the show's comics? If so, would this be considered 'canon'? 

 

 

If so, this is such a sweet moment!

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, it's from the show's comic, so it's canon, and it is adorable.

 

Shame they didn't do something like this on the show.

Edited August 18, 2014 by apinknightmare

[SonofaBiscuit]

I thought that the comic posted above was Felicity's introduction into the existing Green Arrow comics, so I was like "Wow, Oliver sure moves fast, asking her out on a date already."  Then I'm like, "Wait!  Why is Oliver pulling a gun on Felicity?!"  Yeah, that's not Oliver.  Super confused for a second there.  

[icandigit]

Why is Robbie Amell asking Felicity out on a date?

[BkWurm1]

Why is Robbie Amell asking Felicity out on a date?

 

Lol, I thought he looked like David Boreanaz in the panel where he asks if she could help him out. 

[icandigit]

Yeah. I saw the DB thing too, Also, one of the panels reminded me of Dolye(Glenn Quinn) from Angel as well.

[Morrigan2575]

Isn't that from S1 Arrow comics?

[Angel12d]

That comic excerpt is awesome and makes me even more excited for the season 2.5 comics! If Oliver filled Felicity's apartment with flowers in s1 imagine the things he might do now!

[Velocity23]

http://www.tv.com/topics/general-tv-discussion/community/post/when-endgame-couples-fall-short-dawson-syndrome-vs-the-pacey-solution-1408394218/

 

I am just gonna leave this here and continue laughing!

[TanyaKay]

I would watch Felicity if she is buying vegetables in a farmer's market.

[AustenChick]

Just had a thought -- what do people think Sara meant when she told Laurel "Oliver needs you?" Did she mean as a friend? Romantically? Or just as part of his support system? 

[statsgirl]

It's one of those things that the writers write to drive people crazy speculating.  I bet the Lauriver shippers got a lot of support from it.

 

Me, I'm hoping it's that he needs a (good) lawyer on his team.  But I bet AK and MG meant it for the emotional support.

[Angel12d]

Just had a thought -- what do people think Sara meant when she told Laurel "Oliver needs you?" Did she mean as a friend? Romantically? Or just as part of his support system? 

 

At the time of airing I thought Sara's "Oliver needs you" line was one thrown in there by the EP's desperately clinging onto Laurel/Oliver as the show OTP. Part of me thought it was kind of weird because Sara had still been sleeping with Oliver only a couple of weeks beforehand and it felt like the icky handing over the use of Oliver's dick. SHUDDER. But then another part of me felt like it was Sara acknowledging that Laurel knows his secret now and he needs all the support he can get.

 

After we got all the Olicity spoilers for s3, I'm assuming that it was more along the lines of support. They don't have to be romantic to be in each other's lives. Their relationship is best left as friends so I'm hoping that's all it meant. As lines go though, it's kind of wash. It really could mean anything. But based on what we know about the romance side of things, I don't see any romantic intention there at all.

[BkWurm1]

Just had a thought -- what do people think Sara meant when she told Laurel "Oliver needs you?" Did she mean as a friend? Romantically? Or just as part of his support system?

 

My first and oft repeated thought was, um, no he does not. 

 

But in trying to think about it from Sara's perspective, I think she understands that Oliver has lost a lot of people in his life.  Just that week he lost his company, his mother, and his sister and here was Sara, walking (floating) away and in a manner that is going to bring Oliver more guilt.  Laurel has just recently  found out who Oliver is and I think Sara was  saying don't be another person to disappear from his life.  I don't think  it went past that. 

[icandigit]

 

My first and oft repeated thought was, um, no he does not.

He could just get other friends. I think there are some available in Central City. They won't know him like their own name in their bones, but could still be useful. He has a little sister he could reconcile with. I assume he and Lyla are good.

[Luckylyn]

I've been thinking about it a lot and Oliver really failed Thea monumentally.  Tommy dies and their mother is in prison and Oliver disappears for months focused on his grief with no thought of Thea who was totally on her own at 18 years old.   He meddled in Thea's relationship with Roy which just created more pain for her.  He disappears on her again when their mother dies.    No wonder she's bitter towards him.  He's shown himself to be totally unreliable and from her perspective self centered.  Viewer's see his concern for her, but he's never around when she needs him.

 

I'm annoyed the show hasn't really used Walter much.  I think he could have interesting dynamics with Thea and Oliver.  Logically, Walter should have been there for Thea through the traumas of the last couple of years because Season 1 established a solid father/daughter kind of bond, but Walter's used so sparingly that it's been lost.  It might be interesting to see Walter used more in Season 3 (I'm hoping).   I would not mind some Malcom vs. Walter stuff in the battle for Thea's soul.   Worry over Thea and efforts to get back the company could also be a way for Walter and Oliver to interact.    Is the actor who plays Walter simply not available often or do the writers just not see his potential as a part of Oliver and Thea's journeys?

[Carrie Ann]

I would love if it they made Walter more of a presence on the show. For one, he's just really pretty and lovely to listen to. But in general, I think CW shows suffer by eliminating or ignoring parent figures for their leads. And while Walter was certainly more of a father to Thea than to Oliver, I think the idea of found family is central to this show and they could do even more with it. I'd love to see a relationship develop as Walter helps Oliver reclaim his family business. But I think that's a pipe dream because they haven't signed Colin Salmon to any kind of deal.

[ban1o]

I've been thinking about it a lot and Oliver really failed Thea monumentally.  Tommy dies and their mother is in prison and Oliver disappears for months focused on his grief with no thought of Thea who was totally on her own at 18 years old.   He meddled in Thea's relationship with Roy which just created more pain for her.  He disappears on her again when their mother dies.    No wonder she's bitter towards him.  He's shown himself to be totally unreliable and from her perspective self centered.  Viewer's see his concern for her, but he's never around when she needs him.

Completely agree with this. IMO Oliver treated Thea like crap most of the time. I can completely understand her resentment towards him. Like as viewers we know he cares about her. Too bad he doesn't actually show it. Like how is not telling Thea that her boyfriend was injected with some drug that can cause anger issues, hallucinations and super strength helping or protecting her in any way? Or not telling her there's some mercenary who is bent on killing her after her? Or never being there for her when she needs you the most? Ugh Oliver frustrates me sometimes.

[pootlus]

I would love if it they made Walter more of a presence on the show. For one, he's just really pretty and lovely to listen to. But in general, I think CW shows suffer by eliminating or ignoring parent figures for their leads. And while Walter was certainly more of a father to Thea than to Oliver, I think the idea of found family is central to this show and they could do even more with it. I'd love to see a relationship develop as Walter helps Oliver reclaim his family business. But I think that's a pipe dream because they haven't signed Colin Salmon to any kind of deal.

Yeah I think the sad lack of Walter (and, by extension, the Walter/Thea relationship) on screen has more to do with them not being able/willing to sign Colin on for a larger number of episodes than story reasons, which is a huge shame as I loved that the show didn't go down the "kid hates stepparent" cliche road, and like @Luckylyn I would love to see Walter involved in dragging Thea back from the (presumed) Dark Side, especially given that Oliver has been such a shitty brother.

Edited August 21, 2014 by pootlus

[wonderwall]

If Laurel and Oliver had explosive chemistry, do you guys think you would support them more?

 

My answer would still be no because of their toxic backstory. But if they did have great chemistry then there would be no doubting that Laurel/Oliver would be endgame.

[AustenChick]

The back story is hard to swallow, but I think if Oliver and Laurel had more chemistry, it would have been easier to like them more. 

I do think it's hard to root for a couple when they have such a heavy past working against them. The Oliver/Felicity and the Oliver/Felicty/Diggle dynamic works so well because we saw all those relationships develop on the screen. 

[NumberCruncher]

Hard one to answer TBH.  The cheating history would make me lean towards no, but then again, Oliver is a completely different person than he was before the island.  What does seal the deal for me (lack of actor chemistry aside) is that he started banging her sister again.  The sister swapping will never not be gross.

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

If Laurel and Oliver had explosive chemistry, do you guys think you would support them more?

My answer would still be no because of their toxic backstory. But if they did have great chemistry then there would be no doubting that Laurel/Oliver would be endgame.

I can't overcome the backstory and the developments of S2. Maybe if Oliver hadn't boarded the Sara train again I might be able to see a relationship for them down the road. Except you have the ghost of Tommy. So between the sister and BFF swapping I don't think any amount of chemistry would redeem them.

Even letting Laurel in on the secret doesn't get them any closer. That ship sunk with no survivors.

[Password]

It's funny, if ever there was a worse off couple that I enjoyed together it was Chuck and Blair. But for reasons stated above, the cheating with her sister, impregnating another, then getting back together with said sister (behind her back) I would hate to think something like chemistry would make me rethink the whole thing. But I agree, if the chemistry was better they'd be endgame. And I would hate it. But hey.

[icandigit]

 

If Laurel and Oliver had explosive chemistry, do you guys think you would support them more?

I don't think so.  I ship often but I don't ship or support every couple.  There are couples that are ok with me but I'm  not some huge supporter (i.e Roy and  Thea). Do they have chemistry, I have no idea, don't care?  I don't dislike them. I've watched shows before where I wasn't heavily invested in the relationship but still enjoyed the show (i.e. Fringe). I don't think most couples I've supported have necessarily had explosive chemistry or seemed to have chemistry at all by some viewers account.

 

I think Laurel not being an interesting character in her own right and the non-entertaining acting would cause problems for me being interested in Laurel being with Oliver. Tommy and Laurel were ok, but that was more because Tommy was interesting. But,  if they put him with some other girl the next day,  I wouldn't have cared.

 

If Laurel were interesting and the acting was interesting there's a possibility I would be ok with Laurel/Oliver without chemistry.

Edited August 21, 2014 by icandigit

[blixie]

I think if they wanted us to be invested in Lauriver we should have had flashbacks to their story sprinkled through the first season and rotated with the Lian Yu flashbacks which honestly were TERRIBLE in year one, just so bad that I couldn't invest in the show until I gave it a full rewatch/catch up this summer. We needed to *see* Lauriver rather than be told about how much he's loved her and for how long, even if his love was still weaksauce because he was shallow play/frat boy. Hmm thinking about it now did Oliver find out about his potential love child before or after he made the boat trip plans? If I'd see him fall hard for Laurel even while not being faithful, and then get extra freaked about commitment and moving in post miscarriage well yeah. Instead Lauriver played out all piecemeal retcon like.

 

In any case the chemistry isn't bad with SA/KC it just pales in comparison to what Stephen Amell is like with Emily and Caty, the toxic writing though is far more overiding, I have never felt like a chemistry suck is at play here.

[statsgirl]

I don't really care about their backstory, that can be overcome.  To be  honest, pre-island Oliver was about the douchiest a person can get and yet I still root for him in the present.

 

What stops me is KC's portrayal of Laurel, a combination of the acting and not overcoming what's written on the page. It makes Laurel self-centered, okay let's say it narcissistic, cruel (to Dinah, Quentin, Sara and Oliver) when she isn't getting what she thinks she should have, double-standardy when it comes to herself or others. How can I support Oliver in a relationship with a woman who deliberately hurts her  mother, or who throws barware when her supposedly-dead sister shows up because she's not the centre of attention for once.  She's someone I wouldn't wish on anyone I cared about.

 

I would love if it they made Walter more of a presence on the show. For one, he's just really pretty and lovely to listen to. But in general, I think CW shows suffer by eliminating or ignoring parent figures for their leads. And while Walter was certainly more of a father to Thea than to Oliver, I think the idea of found family is central to this show and they could do even more with it. I'd love to see a relationship develop as Walter helps Oliver reclaim his family business. But I think that's a pipe dream because they haven't signed Colin Salmon to any kind of deal.

I know this is the CW and all but I would like it if they didn't make the world stop with 30 year olds like Oliver and Laurel, although it's nice to have Diggle and Quentin on too.  It sometimes feels like a child's book or Boy's Own Adventure, where kids get to rule and if there are any adults, they're in the background.  (I forgot about Malcolm but villains are allowed to be older on this show.)

 

I wouldn't even need to see Walter mentoring Oliver that much, just have him there in the background as he was when he helped Oliver keep half of QC from Isabel.  Just to know that there are older, more experienced people in the universe.

[Angel12d]

I've been thinking about it a lot and Oliver really failed Thea monumentally.  Tommy dies and their mother is in prison and Oliver disappears for months focused on his grief with no thought of Thea who was totally on her own at 18 years old.   He meddled in Thea's relationship with Roy which just created more pain for her.  He disappears on her again when their mother dies.    No wonder she's bitter towards him.  He's shown himself to be totally unreliable and from her perspective self centered.  Viewer's see his concern for her, but he's never around when she needs him.

 

I'm annoyed the show hasn't really used Walter much.  I think he could have interesting dynamics with Thea and Oliver.  Logically, Walter should have been there for Thea through the traumas of the last couple of years because Season 1 established a solid father/daughter kind of bond, but Walter's used so sparingly that it's been lost.  It might be interesting to see Walter used more in Season 3 (I'm hoping).   I would not mind some Malcom vs. Walter stuff in the battle for Thea's soul.   Worry over Thea and efforts to get back the company could also be a way for Walter and Oliver to interact.    Is the actor who plays Walter simply not available often or do the writers just not see his potential as a part of Oliver and Thea's journeys?

 

I could not agree more with this! I was pretty shocked that nothing was said about how Oliver just abandoned his only sister when their mother was in jail and she'd lost Tommy too (I assume they were pretty close during the five years Oliver was missing). It's times like that when I hate how self-absorbed Oliver is, lost in his man pain. I get that he was hurting and he wanted to run but his sister needed him more. It was pretty shitty.

 

 

If Laurel and Oliver had explosive chemistry, do you guys think you would support them more?

 

My answer would still be no because of their toxic backstory. But if they did have great chemistry then there would be no doubting that Laurel/Oliver would be endgame.

 

I would never ship them because he slept with her sister. I'd probably think what a waste of good chemistry if they even had any. But that backstory is way too disgusting and toxic for me to root for. NO WAY.

 

That said they probably would still be endgame because people have a funny way of forgetting important details like 'HE SLEPT WITH HER SISTER' when chemistry is involved. Heck, people even forget that now and they have no chemistry to even speak of!

[CabotCove]

I dont think it would be much different from the way  Oliver gets forgiven and "forgotten" as the man who did those deeds in the first place(cheating with the girlfriend's sister or impregnating another etc), including murdering people. 

[BkWurm1]

What stops me is KC's portrayal of Laurel, a combination of the acting and not overcoming what's written on the page. It makes Laurel self-centered, okay let's say it narcissistic, cruel (to Dinah, Quentin, Sara and Oliver) when she isn't getting what she thinks she should have, double-standardy when it comes to herself or others. How can I support Oliver in a relationship with a woman who deliberately hurts her  mother, or who throws barware when her supposedly-dead sister shows up because she's not the centre of attention for once.  She's someone I wouldn't wish on anyone I cared about.

 

Honestly, this is my deal breaker. I could work past the toxic backstory and even the modern day sister swapping if I loved the characters but I don't.  It took a while before I was able to find a way to connect to Oliver and from there, learn to like him and root for him, but with Laurel, she's still all hard surfaces and self inflicted pain.  I can't find a way to connect to the character so I can't ever really like or root for her.  I can pity her, can understand her anger and sorrow, but I have a hard time wanting her around. 

[dtissagirl]

Honestly, this is my deal breaker. I could work past the toxic backstory and even the modern day sister swapping if I loved the characters but I don't.  It took a while before I was able to find a way to connect to Oliver and from there, learn to like him and root for him, but with Laurel, she's still all hard surfaces and self inflicted pain.  I can't find a way to connect to the character so I can't ever really like or root for her.  I can pity her, can understand her anger and sorrow, but I have a hard time wanting her around. 

 

This. I have the same problem -- I just can't root for Laurel, that's where it starts and ends for me. She leaves me cold -- whether it's the writing, or KC's acting, or a mix of both -- and for me to like a pairing, I have to feel *something* about the two characters involved. I feel nothing for Laurel but contempt. And the contempt is not even for Laurel herself, it comes from looking at her *as a character*, from outside of the narrative.

 

And it's not just the sister-swapping either, because while I find that super gross and still want to punch Oliver in the face for being such a jerk, at the same time I can see that he's trying to be better than that, and I can root for him to one day be a genuinely cool dude who won't do this kind of crap anymore. I accept that emotional growth is part of his redemption arc, because the narrative HAS shown me that. And if I'm honest here, I think if Felicity didn't exist, I would probably be 'shipping Oliver with Sara. Because I am able to root for Sara -- she's done terribly crappy douchey things, some of it probably even worse than Oliver did, but I can feel empathy for Sara, and I can see she's trying to atone, and is striving to be better -- again, because there's vulnerability in the acting, and the narrative has been clear about her redemptive arc.

 

Laurel, on the other hand, isn't even on a redemptive arc. And this is nuts, because here's a character that the EPs have been struggling for 46 episodes to redeem in the eyes of the audience... while technically she hasn't done anything awful enough that needs redeeming in the first place. Again: she's not on a redemptive arc within the narrative, BUT at the same time, they are trying to redeem her so the viewers can like her. How completely cuckoo crazy is that? I think the audience sees a whole bunch of crap she did as unforgivable [sleeping with Oliver, Tommy dying while saving her, her lack of remorse for killing the fake!Brother Blood to save Oliver] BECAUSE she's a terribly contructed character that gives us major cognitive dissonance instead of what we should give her -- sympathy. All of Laurel's problems are outside the narrative [crappy writing, lack of vulnerability in the acting, lack of chemistry, etc], which is why it's pretty impossible to relate to her.

 

What pisses me off the most is that looking at all of this from outside of the narrative, I KNOW that the person I should feel empathy for, and root for, is Laurel. Rationally, I'm 100% certain that THAT is what I was supposed to feel. But Laurel is such a terribly constructed character, that all of that rationalizing goes out the window when I watch the show. And then I just want her gone, because I feel legit uncomfortable that it's impossible for me to ever root for her.

Edited August 22, 2014 by dancingnancy

[TanyaKay]

This. I have the same problem -- I just can't root for Laurel, that's where it starts and ends for me. She leaves me cold -- whether it's the writing, or KC's acting, or a mix of both -- and for me to like a pairing, I have to feel *something* about the two characters involved. I feel nothing for Laurel but contempt. And the contempt is not even for Laurel herself, it comes from looking at her *as a character*, from outside of the narrative.

 

.....

 

What pisses me off the most is that looking at all of this from outside of the narrative, I KNOW that the person I should feel empathy for, and root for, is Laurel. Rationally, I'm 100% certain that THAT is what I was supposed to feel. But Laurel is such a terribly constructed character, that all of that rationalizing goes out the window when I watch the show. And then I just want her gone, because I feel legit uncomfortable that it's impossible for me to ever root for her.

 

I have a very strong feeling that it was the worst possible case of miscasting. She was not as poor written in first season and had it been an actress half way competent, Laurel would have fared better with the public. KC just killed that character. On paper, I am supposed to root for her because she was wronged - at least that's what they showed us in the initial episodes - but every time I see her face on my screen (and that happened from the very first scene for me) I just want to roll my eyes at all the self righteousness. YAWN.

[wingster55]

Even if she was portrayed by the best actress...I think they wouldn't like anyone that opposed the male protagonist. Some character types just aren't popular even though may actually be great characters. 

[statsgirl]

I think one of the good things about this show is how many people close to Oliver do oppose him.  Not just Moira, who is a grey character, and Thea, who is often bratty but from time to time hits home with one of her jabs against him but almost everyone close to him,   From  his first episode Diggle opposed him, to the extent of quitting when he thought he didn't get enough respect from Oliver. Felicity also quit because he was killing, and continues to opposed him when she thinks he's wrong.  Sara fought him a number of times, form her right to leave to whether they should kill Roy.  Roy has been scathing in his contempt for Oliver.

 

I agree that a female protagonist can be unpopular with some of the audience when she opposes the male protagonist (Ziva on NCIS and Abby on ER come to mind and Cameron on House got smashed for it) but I think there's more than that in Laurel's case.  I just watched The Undertaking and once again, when Oliver gets around Laurel, he becomes a more unpleasant and less root-able person.

Edited August 23, 2014 by statsgirl

[Ceylon5]

Even if she was portrayed by the best actress...I think they wouldn't like anyone that opposed the male protagonist.

 

I can only speak for myself, but I tend by default to be automatically biased in favour of the female character on almost every show I watch, even if the male character is a nice guy.  If the guy is definitely at fault, then being on the female character's side is a no-brainer, and I expect her to give him a hard time as a result (I'd be annoyed if she didn't).  But I just can't with Laurel.  Even douche Oliver is less aggravating to me than her, which is an extraordinary, unprecedented feat of acting and writing - as far as I'm concerned, everyone involved is doing a truly crap job if they've got me to actually prefer an unlikeable man over a theoretically sympathetic woman.

[catrox14]

Even if she was portrayed by the best actress...I think they wouldn't like anyone that opposed the male protagonist. Some character types just aren't popular even though may actually be great characters. 

 

Felicity and Sara both opposed Oliver at various times and both seem to be very well liked. For me, part of why I really like them is because they do oppose if they feel strongly enough about it. And IMO Oliver respects them even if he doesn't agree with them.

[pootlus]

Even douche Oliver is less aggravating to me than her, which is an extraordinary, unprecedented feat of acting and writing - as far as I'm concerned, everyone involved is doing a truly crap job if they've got me to actually prefer an unlikeable man over a theoretically sympathetic woman.

Exactly. Given the events of the past, my sympathies should belong firmly to Laurel - making her likeable and sympathetic should be a doddle. She was treated apallingly by her sister and Oliver (her being self-obsessed and entitled was not an excuse for them to run off together!), she then had to endure the loss of two of the people she was closest to (regardless of how they treated her) and survive with her sanity intact. Yet, Laurel is unpleasant, stupid and whiny - and that's actually when I get anything from her at all. How come her cheating, emotionally-crippled, serial-killing sister manages to elicit more sympathy from me?

The irony is that Laurel can appear pleasant in her relationships - she was intermittently so with Tommy in S1 and had a couple of nice moments with Sara even if I always got the impression she was planning to kill her in a dark alley later (which is 100% a failure of the actress). Why can't the writers/KC study those scenes and bring some of that into her interactions with other characters? It's not that hard to write/act like a nice person.

[dtissagirl]

I can only speak for myself, but I tend by default to be automatically biased in favour of the female character on almost every show I watch, even if the male character is a nice guy.  If the guy is definitely at fault, then being on the female character's side is a no-brainer, and I expect her to give him a hard time as a result (I'd be annoyed if she didn't).  But I just can't with Laurel.  Even douche Oliver is less aggravating to me than her, which is an extraordinary, unprecedented feat of acting and writing - as far as I'm concerned, everyone involved is doing a truly crap job if they've got me to actually prefer an unlikeable man over a theoretically sympathetic woman.

 

+1!

 

My default is to side with female characters every time. This is how I watch all TV. I start every show excited about the lady characters, and legit waiting for -- almost daring, even -- the male protagonist to win me over. I tend to get super defensive about female characters over male characters all the time. So I went into Arrow with this exact mindset, and from the pilot I realized I didn't understand Laurel as a character. She made me uncomfortable from day one, and now it's been 46 episodes and I still feel the same way: every time she's on screen, I'm immediately taken out of the story and I'm aware that I'm watching an invulnerable actress playing a weirdly contructed character.

 

And here's the kicker -- I still needed Oliver to win me over, and that took the entirety of season 1. I only started rooting for him when I went back and rewatched the whole season before S2 started. But Oliver never took me out of the story, so I can look at him from within the narrative and see that his faults are part of the story, part of his journey. With Laurel, I cannot see past the failure in her being a fictional character.

Edited August 23, 2014 by dancingnancy

[KirkB]

See, I don't think you were supposed to root for Oliver for most (if not all) of season 1. He wasn't particularly heroic yet. He was a recovering douche who was cold to his friends and family and killed people who might figure out he was running around in green tights, effectively extorting other people and killing those who refused to pay up. After Tommy died he started to change his ways, expanding his quest beyond the list and helping those in need.

 

And I'm pretty much on the same page with you dancingnancy, where female characters are concerned. Even when the star of a show is a guy it is often one of the female characters I am more interested in.

Edited August 23, 2014 by KirkB

[dtissagirl]

Oh, definitely, it was hard to root for Oliver in S1. But I think even when I wasn't rooting for him, I understood that the story was going in a direction that would make me WANT to root for him, before I was actively on his side. Does that make sense?

 

He was cold to his family, but he had a couple of warm moments with Thea. His friendship with Tommy rang true from the pilot. Diggle saw right through Oliver's manpain, and by episode 4 we were seeing Oliver's faults through Dig's eyes. Then Felicity saw right through his playboy persona and his bullshit. His relationship with Helena also helped, because it showed us Oliver wanted other people to be better than him. From a narrative standpoint, the relationships he forged in the first half of S1 made him gradually more sympathetic, even while he was still lying to everyone and killing a bunch of people. And the flashbacks helped  too, because the spoiled whiny brat with the girly voice and the gigantic sense of entitlement was getting his comeuppance.

 

I think by the time we got to The Odyssey, I wanted to root for Oliver. Mainly because Dig and Felicity were seeing the potential in him, but hey, that's super effective storytelling anyway. And by the time Oliver had to apologize to Diggle for the Deadshot fiasco, I was rooting for Oliver, so his character journey did work for me.

[blixie]

 

How come her cheating, emotionally-crippled, serial-killing sister manages to elicit more sympathy from me?

 

I think it's pretty obvious why she elicits more sympathy: we SAW all the shit she went through, and at least how she "karmically" paid for her poor choice to sleep with her sisters boyfriend, and how all that horrible stuff on the boat/Lian Yu made her vulnerable to the LoA. The writers spent lots of time thinking about who Sara was supposed to be, and how much they'd have to show us to make up for all the built in negatives. The seem to have spent ZERO time thinking about who Laurel is and merely relied on the fact that she got screwed over by Oliver and Sara, as the entire and the only reason she "earned" sympathy. So they could write her being a bitch to Oliver and Sara, anyone, without doing any work to show us what three dimensional interesting person outside that. She got romantically dicked over, she helps The Poors, what more work do they need to DO?! She has a license to bitch and whine with no upper limit, no one in the audience would ever respond negatively to that.

 

It was huge failure and miscalculation, no actress could recover from writing that crappy, but Katie Cassidy in particular I think was almost specifically (mis)cast to play it to the bitchy hilt, bitchy is her wheelhouse on previous CW and sundry shows, I'd even wager CW execs sent notes in the beginning asking for "bitchy Laurel". In the meantime they wrote her nothing consistent, they didn't write her vulnerability, they didn't give us any complexity, and I've seen Katie capable of playing those things, on Melrose Place she was both bitchy AND vulnerable, IMO, Arrow just didn't *give* it to her to play.

[quarks]

The thing is, I know I SHOULD be sympathetic towards Laurel. She's gone through hell - losing her boyfriend and her sister, getting them back only to have both of them lie extensively to her, losing the next boyfriend as he was trying to save her, getting kidnapped a lot, getting clinically depressed, and so on. And now, just as she's finally found out the truth about the ex boyfriend and her sister and thinking that ok, now I can be really part of the team, having the sister take off to join a group of assassins and the ex turn to another woman and his supposed bodyguard instead of her.

Typed out like that it's obviously sympathetic. And yet.

[KirkB]

No, you're right. You're absolutely right. We SHOULD feel nothing but sympathy for Laurel. The setup is right there. And on just about any other show with just about any other actress we would. For some reason though, Katie hasn't done her part, she hasn't acted between the lines to inject the vulnerability and pain, but the writers and directors have also failed to point this out. Just about every other character on the show has grown and evolved at least to some degree but Laurel is still mostly stuck the same as she was in season one, which is a shame.

[statsgirl]

I think it's pretty obvious why she elicits more sympathy: we SAW all the shit she went through, and at least how she "karmically" paid for her poor choice to sleep with her sisters boyfriend, and how all that horrible stuff on the boat/Lian Yu made her vulnerable to the LoA. 

For me, her back story and karmic payment matters less than that when I see Caity Lotz act, I see vulnerability.  I see how she accepts the blame for the bad that she's done (and more than just what she's done which is something she has in common with Oliver) and I can see her trying to make things right. I see how unsure of herself she is around people, not just the ones she's hurt like Laurel and her parents but also around Diggle and Felicity because she feels she's too broken to accept friendship.

 

I don't get any vulnerability from Laurel except how it concerns her and how other people have hurt her.  She's rarely unsure of herself and I never see her realizing  how she's hurt other people (and she has during the episodes the show has been on).  Even the fight with Tommy when she assumed he had asked Oliver for a job and he hadn't and it made everyone uncomfortable, Tommy was the one who ended up apologizing to her, not Laurel for realizing she was pushing him too hard.

 

Even when she's helping people at CNRI, I get the impression that it's more about glorifying Laurel than actually wanting to help other.

 

I don't know what went wrong, why they consistently write her as someone who should elicit sympathy from me but she never does. (although I do think a lot of that is on KC' shoulders).   Look at Moira, who did a lot of bad things and continued to do bad things (e.g. threaten Felicity instead of tell the truth) but we understand her and I do sympathize with her because she was put in an impossible situation.   I think the only solution is to stop trying to make Laurel vulnerable because it's not working, and just play straight-out 'tough broad' like Jessica on Suits or Gates on Castle.

 

And here's the kicker -- I still needed Oliver to win me over, and that took the entirety of season 1. I only started rooting for him when I went back and rewatched the whole season before S2 started. But Oliver never took me out of the story, so I can look at him from within the narrative and see that his faults are part of the story, part of his journey. With Laurel, I cannot see past the failure in her being a fictional character.

One of the ways they got me to like Oliver was in his interactions with Diggle, who smacked him down when he needed it but also understands what he's going through, with Felicity who stands up to him when he is less than he could be, with Tommy because I could see how much he was hurting, and even with Thea when she needs help and he thinks he can't.  They cracked the shell and let some of the real man inside bleed out at times.

 

ETA:  The person reading over my shoulder just commented that Sara projects vulnerability and Laurel projects entitlement. Even the question of being on the team now that she knows Oliver's the Arrow, Laurel went to the cave and insisted that she was going out with them even after Oliver told her 'no'.  "Why do they get to go and I don't?"  It's partly the writing, but it's also the acting too.

Edited August 23, 2014 by statsgirl

[BkWurm1]

The person reading over my shoulder just commented that Sara projects vulnerability and Laurel projects entitlement. Even the question of being on the team now that she knows Oliver's the Arrow, Laurel went to the cave and insisted that she was going out with them even after Oliver told her 'no'.  "Why do they get to go and I don't?"  It's partly the writing, but it's also the acting too.

 

Again the question is WHY do they do this to Laurel?  They had to know how pushy she would come out snarking at why THEY got to go and not her and then to actually go anyway.  It didn't matter if she seemingly helped or not, that was totally eclipsed by the attitude and the immediate scurrying off out of the way.  That part goes to the issues of how inconsistent the write Laurel too..

[wonderwall]

I think the whole point of that disaster was that the writers wanted people as well as the other characters to underestimate Laurel and then when she 'helped'  Oliver it would make her seem more badass and more important to the team and not useless. 

 

However,  it didn't seem to turn out that way. The whole episode made laurel look petulant and idiotic as she didn't do what she was told again.