S05.E05: Dreams Die First

[truthaboutluv]

Ugh, was buried in work so I only just saw the episode and what an episode it was. I'll get the negative out of the way first. Hmm Rihanna - she wasn't "godawful, I cringe every time she's on screen" awful but she certainly didn't wow or was memorable in any way. 

But even that wasn't enough to make me not freaking love this episode. Freddie Highmore is freaking amazing and it will be one of the many tragedies of television that he never got recognized for this role and his performance. I adore Vera Farmiga but for everyone who said Norman alone wouldn't be interesting or able to carry the show, this episode dispelled that in my opinion. 

Yes I missed Norma because I enjoy watching her and Norman's wacky relationship and interactions but man, watching Norman struggle with the reality of his madness and all his emotions of fear, panic, etc. was mesmerizing. Man I'm going to miss this show.

Nice to see Dylan and Emma again and what we all knew would come, but was hoping wouldn't, Dylan will find out Norma is dead, which will mean heading back to White Pine Bay, which can only mean bad things. Or not...

We're getting Marion this early in the season and in the film, it was very soon after Marion's murder that Norman is caught. So Dylan might be there to save Romero from killing Norman, while they finally all put it together, just how crazy Norman is. 

[Lamima]

Watched Psycho tonight. Guess I'd never really watched, watched, it before. I wasn't even born when it was made. Heck, my mom was like 12. So anyway....I think that Dylan and Emma are taking the place of movie Sam and Marion's sister. I think Caleb will be taking the place of Armistad or whatever the PIs name is. So Dylan and Emma will come looking for Caleb. Or maybe just Dylan will come and join Madeline who will be looking for a dead Sam. Sam will die looking for a dead Marion.

[ganesh]

14 hours ago, luna1122 said:

She looked good, but yeah, the almost constant 'reminder' of how hot she was by every male in her world was overkill, especially when Madeline is prettier than she is.

To be fair that's subjective. I think plenty of men and women find Rhianna hot. I think they were going for a certain look for Marion on the show. 

8 hours ago, islandgal140 said:

I find Madeline insipid.

I think she's a dishrag. (The character, not the actor's talent.) I was rolling my eyes with the "I didn't invite you over for *that*, Norman!" Sure. Maybe not making the conscious decision, but "let's bake a cake" Come on. One could argue she was just as stunt cast because they were going for a certain look with her too. 

I haven't watched the movie in a couple of decades. I'm waiting for the show to end to watch it again. I'm hoping to pick up on Freddie's acting v Perkins. 

Please Dylan and Emma, stay far far away. 

I loved all the stuff with the bar. How the bartender was like, just be careful tonight, and everyone knew him and thought he was some crossdressing slut. Ha ha ha ha ha. This show. Even the dude in the bathroom was being nice though. 

I don't have a problem with Rhianna. She wasn't terrible. She played being hemmed in and stifled at work well enough that I could buy she'd make off with the cash.

I like that they're kind of doing a different pov on the movie. It is iconic with one of the most iconic scenes in movie history. I can't help but recall Rome on HBO, when they came to the "Et tu, Brutus" scene. How could you do a fresh take on that? I thought they did a good job with it, so I'm looking forward to seeing if TPTBs are thinking along the same lines. 

[Stringey]

5 hours ago, Peanut6711 said:

It's interesting that Norman sees Norma as wanting to go to bars and pick up men. He thinks of her as "loose" or "easy" with men perhaps. I don't think we (the viewers) actually ever saw Norma do that. Norman's twisted impression of his mother is that she was into getting drunk and random hook-ups in bar parking lots.  In reality, we know she loved Romera in the end. Norman at times certainly seems to imply things of Norma that aren't accurate. For example in the previous episodes Norman assumed that Norma wanted Caleb dead, but just couldn't do it herself. Yet the viewers know from previous seasons that Norma protected Caleb from Chick. While she has her issues with Caleb and their past, she's never wanted him dead. 

The fact that mother has characteristics that are either Norma characteristics exaggerated or just completely distorted makes me wonder if Norman in the movie distorted Norma in the same way. I read the book so long ago i remember virtually nothing of it. I would imagine the book would have given some insight as to what Norma was like alive. For anyone that has memory of the novel if they read it was Norma in the book the same as the Mother personality or was it distorted?

31 minutes ago, ganesh said:

To be fair that's subjective. I think plenty of men and women find Rhianna hot. I think they were going for a certain look for Marion on the show. 

I think she's a dishrag. (The character, not the actor's talent.) I was rolling my eyes with the "I didn't invite you over for *that*, Norman!" Sure. Maybe not making the conscious decision, but "let's bake a cake" Come on. One could argue she was just as stunt cast because they were going for a certain look with her too. 

I haven't watched the movie in a couple of decades. I'm waiting for the show to end to watch it again. I'm hoping to pick up on Freddie's acting v Perkins. 

Please Dylan and Emma, stay far far away. 

I loved all the stuff with the bar. How the bartender was like, just be careful tonight, and everyone knew him and thought he was some crossdressing slut. Ha ha ha ha ha. This show. Even the dude in the bathroom was being nice though. 

I don't have a problem with Rhianna. She wasn't terrible. She played being hemmed in and stifled at work well enough that I could buy she'd make off with the cash.

I like that they're kind of doing a different pov on the movie. It is iconic with one of the most iconic scenes in movie history. I can't help but recall Rome on HBO, when they came to the "Et tu, Brutus" scene. How could you do a fresh take on that? I thought they did a good job with it, so I'm looking forward to seeing if TPTBs are thinking along the same lines. 

To the comment about Madeline being prettier i agree that is subjective. I would  guess  most people would say they are both attractive.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Stringey

[luna1122]

Clearly Rihanna is hot. Blind men think Rihanna is hot. Not my point. The overkill of everyone in her realm drooling over her was my point. Lots of pretty women on this show. 

Edited March 22, 2017 by luna1122

[ganesh]

Quote

She looked good, but yeah, the almost constant 'reminder' of how hot she was by every male in her world was overkill, especially when Madeline is prettier than she is.

That's not exactly how the initial comment comes across. If she looked good and clearly is hot, then why bother to qualify that at all? Why is Madeline "especially" prettier? Should the husband not be cheating on her then because she's prettier? I think we all know that isn't always the case. Because she's the perky white blonde? I don't think that's what you meant, but raising an objection that the statement was in poor taste and just not said well, is fair. It comes off slightly offensive. Maybe the overall statement wasn't worded that well. 

If your argument was to underscore the 'overkill' then you undermined it by making a comparison between the attractiveness of the actors. Whether Madeline is prettier or not is irrelevant to any of the scenes with Marion because neither of them know each other, and neither of the men know both Marion nor Madeline. 

I wouldn't necessarily call the scenes with Marion at work as 'overkill' but I concede the point. I think was the impetus for Marion to steal the money since the boss didn't seem to value her as a good employee. At worst, for me they were just clunky scenes. 

Edited March 22, 2017 by ganesh

[Mick Lady]

Oh, I have nothing against Rhianna at all. But they put her in with some very powerful and talented actors, and that seems a bit unfair.

[Jade Foxx]

2 hours ago, ganesh said:

That's not exactly how the initial comment comes across. If she looked good and clearly is hot, then why bother to qualify that at all? Why is Madeline "especially" prettier? Should the husband not be cheating on her then because she's prettier? I think we all know that isn't always the case. Because she's the perky white blonde? I don't think that's what you meant, but raising an objection that the statement was in poor taste and just not said well, is fair. It comes off slightly offensive. Maybe the overall statement wasn't worded that well. 

If your argument was to underscore the 'overkill' then you undermined it by making a comparison between the attractiveness of the actors. Whether Madeline is prettier or not is irrelevant to any of the scenes with Marion because neither of them know each other, and neither of the men know both Marion nor Madeline. 

I wouldn't necessarily call the scenes with Marion at work as 'overkill' but I concede the point. I think was the impetus for Marion to steal the money since the boss didn't seem to value her as a good employee. At worst, for me they were just clunky scenes. 

Thank you, Ganesh. Your reply is definitely worded more diplomatically than mine would have been. 

Bad girl Rhi Rhi - acting wise, you get a C-, B+ for effort! 

[luna1122]

Reading racism into my comment is deeply disturbing, deeply unfair and so far from any actual motivation or intent that it's bizarre to me that it could ever be construed that way. I say the same thing about kaley cuoco, who,on 'the Big Bang theory' is called pretty or hot by everyone on the show at least once an episode. My BF and I have a running joke about it being written into her contract or something. Rihanna's hotness is indisputable, so it being so hammered home in a single episode was overkill. TO ME. Madeline's attractiveness has nothing whatsoever to do with her white girl blondeness TO ME. Clearly all beauty is subjective. Obviously both women are beautiful by most standards. My comment was offhand and was a reaction to what I perceived as overkill but had not one thing to do with either woman's race. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

12 hours ago, Peanut6711 said:

Was anyone else perplexed by Marion driving an expensive looking red convertible sports car following a scene where she all but begs for a promotion or a raise? 

Not really. Wanting a promotion/raise doesn't necessarily mean that one is poor, or too poor to afford a sweet car.

Ways Marion could have gotten the car:

1. She went into deep debt for the car, which explains why she is desperate for a raise/promotion to help her afford it.

2. The car isn't as expensive as it looks. Searching Carmax.com, I was able to find a few used Miatas from 2006 to 2014, all under $20k. The lowest was about $10k. At a normal car dealership, presumably a good haggler could get a better deal. And of course, a purchase direct from the seller would probably be even cheaper.

3. The car was a gift from one of her admirers.

4. She gets paid pretty well. A real estate business that apparently regularly processes cash transactions  as much as $400k seems like it might pay its employees a lot. So despite wanting a promotion with more prestige and money, she might already be getting paid enough to buy a car like that.

5. Marion is frugal and managed to save and scrimp enoguh so she could afford the one indulgence of a sweet car.

6. She could have inherited the car.

[Racj82]

I just have to stop for a minute that rhianna is widely regarded as one if the most attractive women in the planet so her looks or her looks compared to the side are just puzzling to me. The wife is very attractive but she is not overshadowing Rhianna's beauty. I just can't co sign that.

But, yeah, terrible choice for Marion. You got one of the best actresses around to portray Norma Bates and cast a pop star with a few acting credits to play marion crane? Come on now. Aiming for publicity is pointless at this juncture of the show. It's almost over. Anyone who is in, is in. And they could catch up on Netflix if they want. Just worry about the quality.

[MaggieG]

10 hours ago, Lamima said:

Watched Psycho tonight. Guess I'd never really watched, watched, it before. I wasn't even born when it was made. Heck, my mom was like 12. So anyway....I think that Dylan and Emma are taking the place of movie Sam and Marion's sister. I think Caleb will be taking the place of Armistad or whatever the PIs name is. So Dylan and Emma will come looking for Caleb. Or maybe just Dylan will come and join Madeline who will be looking for a dead Sam. Sam will die looking for a dead Marion.

My grandmother was actually pregnant with my mom and uncle (twins!) when the movie came out. I remember my grandma telling me that she wanted to go see it, but HER mother (my great-grandma) told her "No, you'll get too scared and go into early labor!" LOL

As for the show, I am loving this last season. I agree that Freddie is doing an amazing job and I really hope he does get some recognition.

[truthaboutluv]

9 hours ago, ganesh said:

I was rolling my eyes with the "I didn't invite you over for *that*, Norman!" Sure. Maybe not making the conscious decision, but "let's bake a cake" Come on.

It is very sad when nutty as all hell Norman can read Madeline so well and makes such perfect sense, when he told her that she obviously needed to talk to her husband about her feelings because it's clear she's lonely and vulnerable, which is making her reach out to someone else, while clearly knowing it's wrong. 

9 hours ago, Stringey said:

It's interesting that Norman sees Norma as wanting to go to bars and pick up men. He thinks of her as "loose" or "easy" with men perhaps. I don't think we (the viewers) actually ever saw Norma do that. Norman's twisted impression of his mother is that she was into getting drunk and random hook-ups in bar parking lots.  In reality, we know she loved Romera in the end. Norman at times certainly seems to imply things of Norma that aren't accurate. For example in the previous episodes Norman assumed that Norma wanted Caleb dead, but just couldn't do it herself. Yet the viewers know from previous seasons that Norma protected Caleb from Chick. While she has her issues with Caleb and their past, she's never wanted him dead. 

YMMV but I don't think everything is meant to be literal regarding what Norman does when he becomes Mother, as in these actions clearly mean that's how he sees her. Honestly, how I interpreted the whole gay bar issue is that Norman, along with his complete insanity, is deeply lonely. And in his completely insane and deeply lonely state, he reverts to Mother who as we know, is straight. So as Mother, he connects with men. It's not a testament to Norman viewing Mother as some bar hopping slut or that Norman himself is gay or any of that stuff. Or at least I didn't see it that way.

I just think with the clearly deep psychological issues Norman has, it's too simplistic to say everything he does when he is Mother, must mean that that's how he sees her. Norman has a disassociative personality disorder, caused in part by mental issues he had for years, what with the whole blacking out and compounded by an almost creepy and unhealthy codependent relationship with his mother. He becomes her to cope with things that he cannot or doesn't want to deal with. While there are elements of Norma in Mother and the relationship she fostered with Norman, she has always been a bit exaggerated in my opinion. I don't think the point has ever been to say it is necessarily how Norman sees her.

Regarding Caleb, I thought it was clear that Norman knew he couldn't let Caleb live knowing what he did but he himself could not do it because crazy and dangerous as he is, I personally don't believe Norman is evil. So he let Mother do it for him. So it's not that he believes Mother wanted Caleb dead but that whatever emotional burden Norman cannot handle, his Mother personality comes out to handle it for him. That's why she came out when the therapist pressed him about his past and she said as much to the therapist - that Norman is too fragile and cannot handle knowing and remembering the truth about his past and childhood. 

Quote

Was anyone else perplexed by Marion driving an expensive looking red convertible sports car following a scene where she all but begs for a promotion or a raise? 

Yeah that did give me pause. Not to mention they also stated that she didn't even have a college degree, which is why the boss seemed hesitant to give her the promotion. It wasn't just her very expensive sports car but that looked like a pretty nice Seattle apartment. 

[Peanut6711]

13 hours ago, AlwaysWatching said:

I don't know if someone has mentioned this yet, but..uh..Rhianna is supposed to have an "expanded part" on Bates Motel. I'm not crazy about her being Marion Crane either.  This simply wasn't the right part for her.  I don't dislike her or anything.  Fortunately for me, the rest of the show is still so freaking fantastic that I'm not going to let her ruin it too much.  Still, my mind goes to other people, even an unknown, that would have kept the same atmosphere for which we have become accustomed on Bates Motel. 

I agree. And you'd think that the showrunners who've had 5 years to think about the casting of such as iconic role as the one Janet Leigh originated would have screen tested many actresses and gone with the one that really nailed the part. I mean it's cool that Rhianna likes the show and wanted to play a role, but it also seems like the creators were going for the celebrity effect.  Personally I think I would have preferred them finding an unknown or lesser known and giving that person the opportunity.

1 hour ago, truthaboutluv said:

It is very sad when nutty as all hell Norman can read Madeline so well and makes such perfect sense, when he told her that she obviously needed to talk to her husband about her feelings because it's clear she's lonely and vulnerable, which is making her reach out to someone else, while clearly knowing it's wrong. 

YMMV but I don't think everything is meant to be literal regarding what Norman does when he becomes Mother, as in these actions clearly mean that's how he sees her. Honestly, how I interpreted the whole gay bar issue is that Norman, along with his complete insanity, is deeply lonely. And in his completely insane and deeply lonely state, he reverts to Mother who as we know, is straight. So as Mother, he connects with men. It's not a testament to Norman viewing Mother as some bar hopping slut or that Norman himself is gay or any of that stuff. Or at least I didn't see it that way.

I just think with the clearly deep psychological issues Norman has, it's too simplistic to say everything he does when he is Mother, must mean that that's how he sees her. Norman has a disassociative personality disorder, caused in part by mental issues he had for years, what with the whole blacking out and compounded by an almost creepy and unhealthy codependent relationship with his mother. He becomes her to cope with things that he cannot or doesn't want to deal with. While there are elements of Norma in Mother and the relationship she fostered with Norman, she has always been a bit exaggerated in my opinion. I don't think the point has ever been to say it is necessarily how Norman sees her.

Regarding Caleb, I thought it was clear that Norman knew he couldn't let Caleb live knowing what he did but he himself could not do it because crazy and dangerous as he is, I personally don't believe Norman is evil. So he let Mother do it for him. So it's not that he believes Mother wanted Caleb dead but that whatever emotional burden Norman cannot handle, his Mother personality comes out to handle it for him. That's why she came out when the therapist pressed him about his past and she said as much to the therapist - that Norman is too fragile and cannot handle knowing and remembering the truth about his past and childhood. 

Yeah that did give me pause. Not to mention they also stated that she didn't even have a college degree, which is why the boss seemed hesitant to give her the promotion. It wasn't just her very expensive sports car but that looked like a pretty nice Seattle apartment. 

Except in Norman's head, this was one killing that Norma asked him to make because she stated she couldn't do it herself, yet Norman couldn't go through with it either. 

[truthaboutluv]

Yes, I know in his mind he had her ask him to do it because she couldn't go through with it but I don't think that negates my point. Because keep in mind, Norman has never killed anyone deliberately - it's always Mother. The only person Norman knowingly killed was Cody's dad and that was clearly an accident. Mother killed Bradley, Ms. Watson, Emma's mom, Jim Blackwell. Not sure Mother fully existed when he killed his father but he was completely blacked out and didn't remember doing it.

In my opinion, Mother asking Norman to kill Caleb because she couldn't, is because there was an emotional struggle regarding killing Caleb, even with her as simply existing as an alternate personality of Norman. Like I said, I do think there are elements of Norma in Mother. I just don't think that every single thing she says and does is a reflection of exactly how Norman saw Norma when she was alive.  I believe she is and always has been an exaggerated, more vengeful and murderous version of Norma. So in other words, real Norma did struggle with her feelings towards Caleb - she did on some level hate him for what he did to her but she still loved him because he was her brother.

So I think that's what was reflected in the struggle over killing him. Mother couldn't do this kill because unlike Bradley, Ms. Watson, etc. there was an emotional connection but Norman needs Mother to come out to do any killing because he cannot do it on his own. So instead he ended up just letting Caleb go. Of course Chick took care of the problem anyway.

Edited March 22, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[Chaos Theory]

I found the Caleb and Emma scene incredibly boring.  I actually find myself not caring at all about them.

Although Rihanna might have been miscast in the roll of Marion (I might have prefered a really big name for a couple days work kinda like the movie did back then.  The movie cast a big name and then killed her off before the credits which was never ever done.  That would have been a nice touch fir the show. ). But I don't think she is a horrible actress and I am willing to go with it.  

[Rear Window]

23 hours ago, Fable said:

I am wondering if next time we see Marion will be the shower death scene since Marion really did not have a big part in the movie.  I know the show runners said they aren't redoing the movie, but what is really left for Marion to do?  I assume Sam will go to the motel looking for her, and likely Norman will kill him too.    

I was glad to see Dylan and Emma again, although it was a little heartbreaking under the circumstances.  I wonder how Dylan will react to the news that Norma is dead. 

For the life of me, I cannot understand why Norman as Mother would be going to gay bars. Very strange!  

And will Dylan find out his dad is dead, too. I'm sure there's nothing left of the body, though. Poor Dylan!

[Ohwell]

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I found the Caleb and Emma scene incredibly boring.  I actually find myself not caring at all about them.

Yeah, they are a nice couple, but boring.  I don't want them to die but I don't care enough about them to be all that upset if they do die.  

[TattleTeeny]

On 3/21/2017 at 4:02 PM, Stringey said:

It's interesting that you brought the Mother dressing up. I was assuming that Norman went to the bar dressed as himself. Yes he would have viewed himself as Norma and would have taken on her mannerisms but he would come across to everyone else as a gay man especially if norman/mother did not give out the name. Imagine the confusion when a man says his name is Norma. I do like the idea that Norman while in the Mother personality though not only goes out to bars and picks up men but is dressing up as Norma too. If this is a gay bar too then the dressing up as a woman but still unmistakably a man works. If Norman in the Mother personality is dressing up to do this you know he is not wearing the dress though that he wore in the basement in the third episode.  And that's right Norman found some sexy gown or something in the car. I guess mother already but some sexy stuff online.

I did notice that the bartender definitely greeted Norman as if he already knew him when Norman went in as himself to get the car.

Edited March 22, 2017 by TattleTeeny

[peacheslatour]

52 minutes ago, TattleTeeny said:

I did notice that the bartender definitely greeted Norman as if he already knew him when Norman went in as himself to get the car.

Yeah, I did too.

[Gizmo321]

According to this article "post-mortem" of Episode 5. The White House Bar isn't actually a gay bar.

http://tvline.com/2017/03/20/bates-motel-season-5-episode-5-recap-marion-crane-rihanna/

TVLINE | Is the White Horse Bar a gay bar?
EHRIN | It was very intentionally built to have an edgy vibe but not a scary vibe. There’s a sense that everybody is pretty cool there and that anything goes and that people all kind of knew each other. There are probably all kinds of different things happening in that bar [Laughs]. It an open minded bar, let’s put it that way.

[Ailianna]

On 3/21/2017 at 10:04 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't remember if the original Psycho had escaping discrimination as one of Marion's motivating factors or what. I do think making Marion black gives her more reason to be nervous about being stopped by a cop. 

Except this Marion was hardly nervous at all, and took no steps to avoid being found or followed.  Movie Marion was absolutely terrified in her brushes with minor law enforcement activity, even to just seeing a police car drive by, and took active steps not to be found, like trading cars and not going to places where she was already known.

On 3/21/2017 at 2:12 PM, Peanut6711 said:

Was anyone else perplexed by Marion driving an expensive looking red convertible sports car following a scene where she all but begs for a promotion or a raise? 

I was more bothered by the fact that she was driving such a flashy, recognizable car when movie Marion took such pains not to stand out or to be immediately noticed by literally everyone who saw her.

On 3/21/2017 at 2:12 PM, Irritable said:

In the movie, Marion buys a new car so she can have a better chance at a getaway.  I can't remember if she traded in her own car for it, or used some of the stolen cash.  It was actually a very tense scene, she was a nervous wreck at the car dealership.  Not sure if that is what happened here, though, and they decided not to show the purchase, assuming we all knew from the movie how she got it.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

On 3/21/2017 at 4:02 PM, Stringey said:

It's interesting that you brought the Mother dressing up. I was assuming that Norman went to the bar dressed as himself. Yes he would have viewed himself as Norma and would have taken on her mannerisms but he would come across to everyone else as a gay man especially if norman/mother did not give out the name. Imagine the confusion when a man says his name is Norma. I do like the idea that Norman while in the Mother personality though not only goes out to bars and picks up men but is dressing up as Norma too. If this is a gay bar too then the dressing up as a woman but still unmistakably a man works. If Norman in the Mother personality is dressing up to do this you know he is not wearing the dress though that he wore in the basement in the third episode.  And that's right Norman found some sexy gown or something in the car. I guess mother already but some sexy stuff online.

I thought it was extremely obvious, especially in context with the clearly Norma scenes in that bar last week, that when Mother goes out, she goes out in drag.  And people recognized him--he still has the same face after all--but were noticing specifically that this was a "new look" for Norma at the bar.

I also didn't get the idea it was a specifically gay bar, just an open-minded bar.  White Pine Bay doesn't seem like a place with a big gay scene, but this was the kind of place where people of all shapes, sizes and orientations can mix and mingle without anyone causing problems.  And Norma is well liked there.

 

On 3/21/2017 at 5:54 PM, Peanut6711 said:

It's interesting that Norman sees Norma as wanting to go to bars and pick up men. He thinks of her as "loose" or "easy" with men perhaps. I don't think we (the viewers) actually ever saw Norma do that. Norman's twisted impression of his mother is that she was into getting drunk and random hook-ups in bar parking lots.  In reality, we know she loved Romera in the end. Norman at times certainly seems to imply things of Norma that aren't accurate. For example in the previous episodes Norman assumed that Norma wanted Caleb dead, but just couldn't do it herself. Yet the viewers know from previous seasons that Norma protected Caleb from Chick. While she has her issues with Caleb and their past, she's never wanted him dead. 

But remember that college professor?  Norma has used her sexuality for her own comfort in the past, and I see it more as that kind of thing--seeking comfort and contact and validation in the attentions of--if tonight's guy is any indication--attractive young men.

23 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

We're getting Marion this early in the season and in the film, it was very soon after Marion's murder that Norman is caught. So Dylan might be there to save Romero from killing Norman, while they finally all put it together, just how crazy Norman is. 

Actually, the movie is famous for the fact that it opens with someone you think will be the main character, then kills her off fairly early in the movie.  There's a whole lot of film after the shower scene, and I hope more Bates Motel after the shower scene too.

[truthaboutluv]

7 minutes ago, Ailianna said:

Actually, the movie is famous for the fact that it opens with someone you think will be the main character, then kills her off fairly early in the movie.  There's a whole lot of film after the shower scene, and I hope more Bates Motel after the shower scene too.

Yes, I've seen the movie multiple times. My point was that Marion's murder sets a chain of events that eventually gets Norman caught. So with them introducing her so soon, since I assume the season will have the usual 10 episodes, I'm guessing that maybe like the movie, her death and a sequence of events to follow, will lead to Norman getting caught by the time the series ends.

We may even, despite the creators always insisting they wouldn't stay too close to the film, get the final shot of the series, Norman sitting in jail in full on Mother mode, while everyone else reels from just how crazy he really was. I'm even thinking his therapist may be the one to explain everything to the group, regarding his illness and mental state, like the one guy did in the movie, after he's caught. 

Edited March 23, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[ganesh]

I'm hoping he doesn't get caught. 

[truthaboutluv]

Honestly, I'm fine either way. Right now, I'm trusting the writers. Yes, many a show has let me down with their series finale but with how good this season has been, I'm optimistic that whatever they do at the end, it'll work.

[ganesh]

The story has been set up as a tragedy for Norman, largely due to Norma, starting with her not letting him be on the track team. So I think the tragic ending for him on the show is to end alone with him and mother running the hotel. There's no one left.

[Garden Wafers]

On 3/21/2017 at 0:50 PM, smorbie said:

Everything about Norman was spellbinding. Sad for him when he was with the doctor and sad for him when it became clear he was living a double life. 

 

Oh yes. The guy finally manages to make a few friends in an accepting community - and of course it's actually the Norma personality that has the active social life. For most of this season, I've been sort of lukewarm towards Norman; but this episode went a long way towards restoring my sympathy. Hopefully he'll accept Dr. Edwards offer for additional counseling; and maybe swing by a health clinic as well just to get a baseline STI check. 

[smorbie]

6 hours ago, ganesh said:

The story has been set up as a tragedy for Norman, largely due to Norma, starting with her not letting him be on the track team. So I think the tragic ending for him on the show is to end alone with him and mother running the hotel. There's no one left.

The tragedy that is Norman's life started looong before Norma wouldn't let him on the track team.  It started before he killed his mother, before he was present when his father raped his mother and beat her on many occasions.  It's in his DNA.  His grandmother had serious mental problems, passed the down to his mom, who took her own damaged psyche and passed it on to her son.  His father was an alcoholic and abuser, and who knows what else was going on with him.

His mother wouldn't let him join the track team because she needed to keep an eye on him because of his illness, inasmuch as he had already killed his father during a blackout.  

13 hours ago, Ohwell said:

Yeah, they are a nice couple, but boring.  I don't want them to die but I don't care enough about them to be all that upset if they do die.  

Dylan, not Caleb, of course.  Caleb is his dad. :)

[smorbie]

21 hours ago, Racj82 said:

I just have to stop for a minute that rhianna is widely regarded as one if the most attractive women in the planet so her looks or her looks compared to the side are just puzzling to me. The wife is very attractive but she is not overshadowing Rhianna's beauty. I just can't co sign that.

But, yeah, terrible choice for Marion. You got one of the best actresses around to portray Norma Bates and cast a pop star with a few acting credits to play marion crane? Come on now. Aiming for publicity is pointless at this juncture of the show. It's almost over. Anyone who is in, is in. And they could catch up on Netflix if they want. Just worry about the quality.

I've never had a positive impression of Rhianna.  She's just another pop princess who is more known for her inability to cover up her private parts in public than she is for actual talent.  So, it's clear to see that I'm not a fan.

But, she wasn't awful.  She's clearly not as talented or polished as the regulars in the show (and they are stellar), but she kept her clothes on.  Her dialogue was believable.  Her worst scene was the police one.  She didn't seem nervous at all.  I think I would have been quite ruffled to have to been stopped when I had a wad of stolen money with me, but she just seemed mildly annoyed.

I also don't think she's that pretty.

[Fable]

15 hours ago, Rear Window said:

And will Dylan find out his dad is dead, too. I'm sure there's nothing left of the body, though. Poor Dylan!

Oh, I hadn’t even thought of that, but I wonder how he could possibly find out.  I’m pretty sure Norman and Chick were the only people who knew he was there, and I can’t imagine either of them spilling the beans.  There is the guy behind the desk at the motel Caleb went to check into, who knew he was going to see Norma, so I guess he could figure in at some point, but that seems pretty random. 

[truthaboutluv]

3 hours ago, smorbie said:

His mother wouldn't let him join the track team because she needed to keep an eye on him because of his illness, inasmuch as he had already killed his father during a blackout.

YMMV but I have never believed that Norma's reasoning for not allowing Norman to join the track team in season 1 was because of his blackouts. I have re-watched the early seasons and I still think it had everything to do with her need to keep him attached to her and only her. Because during that period, we get no indication of Norma concerned about Norman's mental health.

It's later in the season, when he passes out in the classroom that she goes to a doctor and only talks in vague details and makes up some crazy story to try and understand about his blackout and if maybe there was something very wrong with him. And still she did little after that other than try to convince him how much Bradley was not a nice girl. And later, when he got into taxidermy, she's the one who was then telling him to go outside and make friends, because it wasn't normal to be cooped up in a basement with dead animals.

In my opinion, Norma didn't let Norman join the track team for the same reason she couldn't stand Bradley on sight - she was worried that Norman getting a normal life might mean she would no longer be the most important person in his life. And since she'd wrapped her entire life around him at that point, convinced him that all they really had in the world was each other, she couldn't have that.

And that's exactly what he threw in her face when she yelled at him about not accepting her marriage to Romero. That she basically spent years insisting to him that all they had was each other, she treated every girl he had the slightest interest in with disdain and then now that he was all completely screwed up, but she fell in love, she decided he needed to just accept it and move on. 

Edited March 23, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[Ohwell]

3 hours ago, smorbie said:

Dylan, not Caleb, of course.  Caleb is his dad. :)

Yes, Dylan.

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, truthaboutluv said:

YMMV but I have never believed that Norma's reasoning for not allowing Norman to join the track team in season 1 was because of his blackouts.  I have re-watched the early seasons and I still think it had everything to do with her need to keep him attached to her and only her. 

Yes, that's what I meant. Prior, the high school students were all friendly to him. Bradley invited him to a party, and everyone was fairly welcoming. Just because Norman was mentally ill doesn't mean he couldn't have lived a normal life. 

[Stringey]

12 hours ago, Garden Wafers said:

Oh yes. The guy finally manages to make a few friends in an accepting community - and of course it's actually the Norma personality that has the active social life. For most of this season, I've been sort of lukewarm towards Norman; but this episode went a long way towards restoring my sympathy. Hopefully he'll accept Dr. Edwards offer for additional counseling; and maybe swing by a health clinic as well just to get a baseline STI check. 

Well I have heard of an STD but what  is this STI that you speak of. Lol just kidding.

But on a serious note oh yeah i think Norman should make that appointment.

[peacheslatour]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

Yes, that's what I meant. Prior, the high school students were all friendly to him. Bradley invited him to a party, and everyone was fairly welcoming. Just because Norman was mentally ill doesn't mean he couldn't have lived a normal life. 

Um.. he killed his father.

[smorbie]

2 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

YMMV but I have never believed that Norma's reasoning for not allowing Norman to join the track team in season 1 was because of his blackouts. I have re-watched the early seasons and I still think it had everything to do with her need to keep him attached to her and only her. Because during that period, we get no indication of Norma concerned about Norman's mental health.

It's later in the season, when he passes out in the classroom that she goes to a doctor and only talks in vague details and makes up some crazy story to try and understand about his blackout and if maybe there was something very wrong with him. And still she did little after that other than try to convince him how much Bradley was not a nice girl. And later, when he got into taxidermy, she's the one who was then telling him to go outside and make friends, because it wasn't normal to be cooped up in a basement with dead animals.

In my opinion, Norma didn't let Norman join the track team for the same reason she couldn't stand Bradley on sight - she was worried that Norman getting a normal life might mean she would no longer be the most important person in his life. And since she'd wrapped her entire life around him at that point, convinced him that all they really had in the world was each other, she couldn't have that.

And that's exactly what he threw in her face when she yelled at him about not accepting her marriage to Romero. That she basically spent years insisting to him that all they had was each other, she treated every girl he had the slightest interest in with disdain and then now that he was all completely screwed up, but she fell in love, she decided he needed to just accept it and move on. 

I'm not arguing that she wasn't jealous of him, but the blackouts were most certainly a concern.  He killed his father during one.  Of course she was worried about that.  She just thought keeping him close to home and keeping an eye on him were the answer.  She didn't want him taken away from her.

But yes, their relationship was not healthy.

[Madding crowd]

I am enjoying this season and agree Freddie is fantastic. I think the show writers have a hard task here. They want to create the Norman Bates story without holding completely true to the book and movie. The problem is the more they include of the original story, the more the differences will stand out. I don't like Rihanna as Marion Crane; she is a beautiful woman, but doesn't have the air of a a good girl doing something wrong for the first time in her life. I do think they had to make Sam a married guy; no one would think twice these days about unmarried people sleeping together and people wouldn't think that debt would be a reason to not be together. 

I do think the show did a bit of a retcon on Norma and her motivations. In season one she was shown to be  inappropriate mother who wanted her son only for herself and possibly had sexual ideation about him. Later, she became more interested in other men romantically and became more interested in Norman's mental health while still being kind of wacky.

As a fan of the movie, I would be happy with the rest of the season somewhat following the original story. We would still have enough different elements to make it original such as Dylan and Emma, Chick, Romero etc. I would not want to see Norman just get away with it. Without treatment in a facility, Norman would just get worse and worse which would result in him killing more people or getting killed himself by picking the wrong person to go Norma on.

[truthaboutluv]

11 minutes ago, smorbie said:

I'm not arguing that she wasn't jealous of him, but the blackouts were most certainly a concern.  He killed his father during one.  Of course she was worried about that.  She just thought keeping him close to home and keeping an eye on him were the answer.  She didn't want him taken away from her.

But yes, their relationship was not healthy.

YMMV but I just didn't think that was how it came across. Yes, Norman killed his father during a blackout but his father was also an awful, abusive, violent man. I don't think Norma necessarily saw that as Norman being potentially very dangerous or sick. I think she just figured in a fit of rage and in a moment, he snapped and killed his father who had tormented him and Norma for years. And he blacked it out because it was too horrible to remember. 

I just don't think if at that time Norma's concern was truly about Norman's blackouts and what he could do, she would one, allow him to be complicit in her murder and cover up of a man, no matter how deserving it was and then two, she would not have spoken to Ms. Watson about her concern about Norman joining any group, since Ms. Watson was the one who suggested his joining the track team.

Of course I wasn't expecting her to tell the truth about Norman killing his father but she could have just said that Norman passes out sometimes and doesn't remember and she's concerned about him joining a sports team. Not to mention, as the county therapist pointed out, if she had so much concern, she would have tried to get him help for it years before. 

I don't think Norma truly started getting concerned about Norman until all the crazy stuff started happening around him, like Ms. Watson ending up dead and other people, like Dylan and later Caleb, telling her that something was not really right with Norman. Until that point, Norma just didn't want Norman going off and having too much of a life because she'd creepily made her son her whole life. YMMV of course. 

Quote

I do think the show did a bit of a retcon on Norma and her motivations. In season one she was shown to be  inappropriate mother who wanted her son only for herself and possibly had sexual ideation about him. Later, she became more interested in other men romantically and became more interested in Norman's mental health while still being kind of wacky.

This is exactly what I've been saying. I don't know if it's because of how fans responded to Vera and the character, but I have always said I felt the writers did a slight shift on Norma's character from the first season to the later ones. And why like I said above, I don't buy that her denying Norman joining the track team was about his blackouts. 

Norma looked at Bradley from the second she met her, almost as competition. Let's not forget the creepy stalking she did of her around town. She heaped a whole ton of guilt and shame on Norman by blaming him for Keith's assault on her and her later getting arrested, because both times he'd sneaked off to be with Bradley.

When someone mentions how Norman's view of Mother as harsh and hard is nothing like real Norma, I always suggest watching the scene when Norman first brings up the idea of him joining the track team. Norma stares Norman down so sternly and he spends the time nervously fixing his plate and apologizing for being late for dinner. The scene is tense and uncomfortable. 

Edited March 23, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[peacheslatour]

14 hours ago, ganesh said:

I'm hoping he doesn't get caught. 

Don't worry, in the sequels he gets out and goes on to kill another day. :)

[Fable]

38 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

I do think the show did a bit of a retcon on Norma and her motivations. In season one she was shown to be  inappropriate mother who wanted her son only for herself and possibly had sexual ideation about him. Later, she became more interested in other men romantically and became more interested in Norman's mental health while still being kind of wacky.

I did notice a shift in tone with Norma in relation to Norman, but I don’t really consider it a retcon as much as progression.  When it started out, Norman was still basically, for want of a better word, a child.  As he started to grow up and distance himself, Norma naturally started seeking other outlets, but I never got the feeling she stopped trying to mold him.  Even in her final days, she still had no problem allowing him to sleep in her bed, so the relationship was still pretty inappropriate.  She wanted to be his rock, and she made that her project and mission, and I don’t think that part of their dynamic ever changed. 

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, truthaboutluv said:

Yes, Norman killed his father during a blackout but his father was also an awful, abusive, violent man. I don't think Norma necessarily saw that as Norman being potentially very dangerous or sick. I think she just figured in a fit of rage and in a moment, he snapped and killed his father who had tormented him and Norma for years. And he blacked it out because it was too horrible to remember. 

This was still predicated on an overly close relationship with Norma anyway. I don't think a court would argue that it was premeditated. And again, Norma could have gotten Norman the help he needed at that point instead of faking the accident. 

[Peanut6711]

20 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

We may even, despite the creators always insisting they wouldn't stay too close to the film, get the final shot of the series, Norman sitting in jail in full on Mother mode, while everyone else reels from just how crazy he really was. I'm even thinking his therapist may be the one to explain everything to the group, regarding his illness and mental state, like the one guy did in the movie, after he's caught. 

I'm sure hoping so. I think the actor who plays the therapist does a good job and he's a likable character. It would fit well to have him survive and fully explain Norman's psychosis at the end like the shrink in the film.   What I hope like hell we don't get, although judging by Cuse's epic fails with finales, is the trite and over-done screen ending where Chick does the explanation via the writing of the book/screen play.  That would just be a lazy cop-out of a way to go with a character whose time to meet his end has come. There's just no redemption for Chick at this point, nor does the character deserve an HEA.  If they really want to veer off script with a "shocker" they could have Marion survive. After all, Hitch killed her off for the shock value of killing off the star. It would be an ironic twist if she lived in this version since everyone is expecting her to die. 

11 hours ago, Fable said:

Oh, I hadn’t even thought of that, but I wonder how he could possibly find out.  I’m pretty sure Norman and Chick were the only people who knew he was there, and I can’t imagine either of them spilling the beans.  There is the guy behind the desk at the motel Caleb went to check into, who knew he was going to see Norma, so I guess he could figure in at some point, but that seems pretty random. 

I suspect Caleb's murder will be discovered perhaps when

Spoiler

the lake is drug as shown in previews for this season. 

Edited March 23, 2017 by Peanut6711

[ganesh]

21 minutes ago, Peanut6711 said:

I'm sure hoping so. I think the actor who plays the therapist does a good job and he's a likable character. It would fit well to have him survive and fully explain Norman's psychosis at the end like the shrink in the film.   What I hope like hell we don't get, although judging by Cuse's epic fails with finales, is the trite and over-done screen ending where Chick does the explanation via the writing of the book/screen play.  That would just be a lazy cop-out of a way to go with a character whose time to meet his end has come. 

You know that's what will happen though.

[Stringey]

23 minutes ago, ganesh said:

You know that's what will happen though.

I don't know about the book thing but I could see one thing. If Norman is indeed found out about I could see some really quick shot of chick now in a suit selling one of Norman's taxidermy animals at some comic book convention or something like that. "Ok now this here was made by the killer in Oregon you all know as the "Mother Killer" Norman Bates".  

Edited March 23, 2017 by Stringey

[Stringey]

Hey do you guys remember in one of the previews before the show aired there was a scene that appeared as if mother was about to shove Norman's head into what appeared to be a jail cell toilet?  From what I recall  I certainly don't think it was the toilet at home. Anyway if they were going with the ending like the movie and if that scene is what it looks like it could be the transition to mother now having taken over completely. After what appears on the outside to be a suicide attempt mother is now in full control. It could end the same as the movie with mothers voice over but I believe they will shuffle the words around a little. As the voice of Mother speaks we could hear kind of a faint echo in the background of Norman's voice calling for mother. The last couple of seconds would show a little fade over image of normas frozen corpse and dead eyes we are all so familiar with. Anyway if they were going to recreate the film's ending this would be a good choice.

[Peanut6711]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

You know that's what will happen though.

I'll be irritated as all hell but I won't be surprised. 

38 minutes ago, Stringey said:

I don't know about the book thing but I could see one thing. If Norman is indeed found out about I could see some really quick shot of chick now in a suit selling one of Norman's taxidermy animals at some comic book convention or something like that. "Ok now this here was made by the killer in Oregon you all know as the "Mother Killer" Norman Bates".  

After sitting through that gawd awful finale to Lost, I could totally see Cuse pulling some eye-roll worthy ending like that.  

[Fable]

Just now, Peanut6711 said:

After sitting through that gawd awful finale to Lost, I could totally see Cuse pulling some eye-roll worthy ending like that.  

Lost was almost always a mess from start to finish though.  This show has been a pretty tightly run ship. 

Edited March 24, 2017 by Fable

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

I did notice a shift in tone with Norma in relation to Norman, but I don’t really consider it a retcon as much as progression. 

And after a little while, Norman (and Norma too) could depend on Emma and Dylan to keep an eye on Norman too. Maybe she was able to loosen her grip and relax a little.

[Dobian]

On 3/21/2017 at 8:18 PM, ganesh said:

To be fair that's subjective. I think plenty of men and women find Rhianna hot. I think they were going for a certain look for Marion on the show. 

I liken Madeline and Marion to the old comparison between Jennifer Aniston and Angelina Jolie.  Madeline/Jennifer is the pretty girl next door, Marion/Angelina is the vavavoom cover of Vogue.

Edited March 24, 2017 by Dobian

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, Stringey said:

I don't know about the book thing but I could see one thing. If Norman is indeed found out about I could see some really quick shot of chick now in a suit selling one of Norman's taxidermy animals at some comic book convention or something like that. "Ok now this here was made by the killer in Oregon you all know as the "Mother Killer" Norman Bates".  

I still want Norman to get away with it, but I could see that too. I just want a really creepy ending.