S05.E03: The Midges

[MisterBluxom]

I just ran across a strange news story in the NY Times connecting "Midges" with a Reality TV show.

Have you ever thought of applying to appear on a reality TV show? Maybe it's time to have a second thought.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/24/world/europe/eden-reality-tv-show-canceled-scotland.html?_r=0

[millennium]

I was sitting here, watching Oleg in the grocery, and idly thinking, "enough of this subplot, will we ever find out what became of Martha" and lo, a mere two minutes later ---

Is it overstating to claim that for one shining, split-second my heart soared?

Looks like Svetlana from the Sopranos returned to the old country.   Been awhile between gigs for her.

"More Than This."   It seems impossible now that music used to be that good.

Who was the woman in the car at the end?  I think I must have missed something.

Edited March 26, 2017 by millennium

[sistermagpie]

6 hours ago, millennium said:

Who was the woman in the car at the end?  I think I must have missed something.

She was a look out. Many of us think she is the woman Gabriel once referred to as recruiting at a library because she had a socialist newspaper. If so that might make sense why Philip would think to make sure she was okay after that kind of violence.

[gwhh]

12 hours ago, scowl said:

My best friend and pub trivia partner spent eighteen months living in the Soviet Union in the late 70's. She insists that Leningrad, Moscow, Kiev, and even Minsk were unlike the rest of the country. Once she got out of those lovely cities which were full of relatively wealthy people, that's when she says half the time she couldn't find basic items like toilet paper and soap (she learned to travel with these items). That's where she saw houses held together by rope because they couldn't get nails. That's where she saw women spending their days in lines and where rumors were more valuable than newspapers. That's where she saw poverty unlike what she has seen in the U.S. 

I have heard the city V non-city thing from other who been to both before the end of the Soviet Union. 

[pavlovsbell]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

She was a look out. Many of us think she is the woman Gabriel once referred to as recruiting at a library because she had a socialist newspaper. If so that might make sense why Philip would think to make sure she was okay after that kind of violence.

Both Marilyn and Norm were in Season 4 as part of Philip's team when he met with William. Once, she crossed the road, and in the finale, she was walking and removed her headscarf.

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, pavlovsbell said:

Both Marilyn and Norm were in Season 4 as part of Philip's team when he met with William. Once, she crossed the road, and in the finale, she was walking and removed her headscarf.

Would that make her possibly the woman Gabriel mentioned, do you think? If he mentioned her before we saw them both working as a lookout she could be--but if it was afterwards that would just be some random woman who was also working for them but not Marilyn.

[pavlovsbell]

16 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Would that make her possibly the woman Gabriel mentioned, do you think? If he mentioned her before we saw them both working as a lookout she could be--but if it was afterwards that would just be some random woman who was also working for them but not Marilyn.

I think that is most likely, because that conversation was about having enough of a team to move forward with William, and the other people Philip listed were Hans and "the older man" (presumably Norm). Then Marilyn appeared in the last two episodes of Season 4. 

Edited March 26, 2017 by pavlovsbell

[dubbel zout]

18 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

So he doesn't know Philip and Elizabeth's primary identities.

It's safer if Tuan doesn't know Philip and Elizabeth's primary identities or other details. Aside from curiosity's sake, there's no reason he needs to know more than what's necessary for the job.

[millennium]

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

She was a look out. Many of us think she is the woman Gabriel once referred to as recruiting at a library because she had a socialist newspaper. If so that might make sense why Philip would think to make sure she was okay after that kind of violence.

Thanks, I suspect I fell asleep for a few minutes.    Philip and Elizabeth have shifted into monster mode once again.   I want to like them, but then they go and snap a guy's neck because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.   They're on a roll.   Just ask Hans. 

I don't like Tuan at all and hope he comes to a terrible end.   The "Russia sucks" emigrant is boorish, even if his complaints are legitimate.   Philip and Elizabeth's distaste for his criticism of Mother Russia rings hollow; they enjoy all the mod cons America has to offer.   It's not like Philip owns that sports car under duress.   What probably irks them is being reminded of their own misgivings. 

The Paige subplot seems like an endless annoyance.  

[Kathemy]

57 minutes ago, millennium said:

Thanks, I suspect I fell asleep for a few minutes.    Philip and Elizabeth have shifted into monster mode once again.   I want to like them, but then they go and snap a guy's neck because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.   They're on a roll.   Just ask Hans. 

I don't like Tuan at all and hope he comes to a terrible end.   The "Russia sucks" emigrant is boorish, even if his complaints are legitimate.   Philip and Elizabeth's distaste for his criticism of Mother Russia rings hollow; they enjoy all the mod cons America has to offer.   It's not like Philip owns that sports car under duress.   What probably irks them is being reminded of their own misgivings. 

The Paige subplot seems like an endless annoyance.  

As bizarre as it all sounds I think P&E's behavior makes perfect sense. The Hans situation, the situation with Randy... from their perspective they had no choice.

I like Tuan. He's simply a very angry kid who's seen the United States trash his own country and kill hundreds of thousands of people. It's important to understand that the Vietnamese identified America's role as simply a continuation of the colonial oppression, a handing over of the flag from the French.

I've never really gotten the impression that Philip and Elizabeth truly "enjoy" the luxuries of their new country. I don't think they're "irked by being reminded of their own misgivings", I think it's mostly a case of feeling guilty that they are living in such comfort while most of their countrymen definitely don't. In a sense, though, that guilt trip is hilarious, seeing as they have the most nervewracking job on Earth and would probably be much happier living in a suburb in Leningrad, working some random desk.

I think this is one of the strengths of the show. Deep down, you always get the sense of them that "they don't belong".

[millennium]

47 minutes ago, Kathemy said:

As bizarre as it all sounds I think P&E's behavior makes perfect sense. The Hans situation, the situation with Randy... from their perspective they had no choice.

I like Tuan. He's simply a very angry kid who's seen the United States trash his own country and kill hundreds of thousands of people. It's important to understand that the Vietnamese identified America's role as simply a continuation of the colonial oppression, a handing over of the flag from the French.

I've never really gotten the impression that Philip and Elizabeth truly "enjoy" the luxuries of their new country. I don't think they're "irked by being reminded of their own misgivings", I think it's mostly a case of feeling guilty that they are living in such comfort while most of their countrymen definitely don't. In a sense, though, that guilt trip is hilarious, seeing as they have the most nervewracking job on Earth and would probably be much happier living in a suburb in Leningrad, working some random desk.

I think this is one of the strengths of the show. Deep down, you always get the sense of them that "they don't belong".

Would you agree that perhaps I fell asleep for a few minutes?   ;)

[Kathemy]

35 minutes ago, millennium said:

Would you agree that perhaps I fell asleep for a few minutes?   ;)

Sure. I'm not unreasonable. :)

[Ina123]

I doubt that prison in the US was ever an option for Martha. My guess is the KGB would never allow her to live and talk to the FBI and they would kill her before they'd let that happen. After all, consider the relative merits of having a very valuable husband and wife spy team versus whatever Martha would be worth to the KGB after she was discovered to be working with the Russians.

On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 1:05 PM, magemaud said:

 

I don't think Martha had a choice between going to the USSR or going to prison here as spy turned informant. She probably feared for her life if she didn't get on that plane and at that point it was too late to turn herself in. 

Whether it was better for Martha to go to the FBI or the USSR may be up for debate, but it wasn't too late to make the choice. She had time. She ran out the door, stood in the street and threatened to yell KGB and it scared Gabriel enough to just let her go. She's then seen on a residential street in DC and then wandering in Rock Creek Park. She calls her parents (which the FBI intercepts and initiates the search in RCP). Meanwhile, she calls Clark and tells him where she is. Clark leaves to get her. The operator at the call house tells Elizabeth who gets to Martha first. All of this takes a long time. So Martha did have time to choose going to the FBI without being killed by the KGB. They had no idea where she was until she told Clark.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Ina123
more info

[Erin9]

On 3/24/2017 at 9:49 PM, Umbelina said:

I wish they were replaying episodes like they did last year.  This time while watching that scene, I'd just focus on the house they were in.

It was pretty awful- very dark, not much there. Honestly, it looked like about the only thing worse would be being homeless entirely. It might have been kind of the equivalent of Hooverville in the U.S. 

I hadn't thought about that, but I bet the plane Philip was playing with was made by his dad. That's sweet to think he took the time to make it.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Erin9 said:

It was pretty awful- very dark, not much there. Honestly, it looked like about the only thing worse would be being homeless entirely. It might have been kind of the equivalent of Hooverville in the U.S. 

I'm fascinated by the curtains on the windows. They seem to be sort of gauzy white curtains. It just seems so at odds with everything else.

[JasonCC]

There is a part of me that thinks the absent Henry is maybe just to troll us/remind us that parenting of a 13 year old in 1984 was very different than in 2017. We spent literally days at friends' houses (especially in the summer), hanging out in libraries and shopping malls sans adults, etc.  We cared little about what our parents did for a living, and they basically left us alone so long as the grades were decent and no one disappeared overnight without a check-in.

Edited March 28, 2017 by JasonCC

[Captain Asshat]

On 3/21/2017 at 10:55 PM, willco said:

I've often wondered why Elizabeth fights so hard to defend Russia. I know that's her home country and all, but is it so terrible here in the U.S. ? Life is pretty nice compared to what she grew up with. Maybe they explained this sometime in the past, but I don't remember.

My guess? If she keeps defending the USSR as the idealized, workers paradise the propaganda expresses, then it's easier for her to justify lying, killing, and doing all the horrible things she's done over the years in the name of the motherland. If the USSR really is as corrupt as its detractors say, then she's just been lying, and killing, and doing horrible things.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Captain Asshat

[Eulipian 5k]

On 3/22/2017 at 10:58 PM, sistermagpie said:

She didn't suggest sex -- she made an aggressive and overt seduction, and the only time we ever see Elizabeth doing that is when Phillip is starting to wander from the corral. It may happen other times, but the times we're shown it, it's when Phillip is at an emotionally questioning time, and Elizabeth needs to reign him back in. 

No one may question the Jennings marriage! I remember Liz getting "jealous" of Clarke & Martha's sex life and initiating role playing sex just as she did with Cowboy Phil - like any 20/21 st century American couple, not just to keep him in line.

I don't think the fact that they were assigned each other matters after 2 teenage kids. Millions of couples today were "assigned" eg Moonie mass weddings, orthodox Jewish mass weddings and many Indian couples are arranged by other than the two spouses but they can attest that their marriages are just as vital and real as any other, BTW almost half the people that married for the 'right' reasons are just as divorced as any other - it's the living together that makes, breaks, or defines a marriage.

[kokapetl]

Philip and Elizabeth's marriage is inscrutable. Their separation in season one made little sense considering they faked it up until a few months before they separated, they were still partners in a travel agency, still spy partners, and would never be allowed to pursue legit romantic interests. 

[sistermagpie]

36 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Philip and Elizabeth's marriage is inscrutable. Their separation in season one made little sense considering they faked it up until a few months before they separated, they were still partners in a travel agency, still spy partners, and would never be allowed to pursue legit romantic interests. 

Answering in Philizabeth...

[mascan42]

The show's unclear timeline isn't being helped by the writers getting real world events wrong. They were watching the Olympics (1984) in episode 1, and now in episode 3, they're watching MASH, which went off the air in 1983. I mean, I suppose it could be a repeat, but still . . .

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, mascan42 said:

The show's unclear timeline isn't being helped by the writers getting real world events wrong. They were watching the Olympics (1984) in episode 1, and now in episode 3, they're watching MASH, which went off the air in 1983. I mean, I suppose it could be a repeat, but still . . .

It was absolutely a repeat. Repeats would totally be on for her to watch. I watched a rerun of MASH just last week! In fact, when it comes to TV they look at the exact date and see what's on at the time the scene's taking place and play that. I clocked the correct storylines on GH both times Paige was watching it.

[Domestic Assassin]

I seem to remember an episode last year the TV was on in the background advertising the series finale of MASH.  But MASH was such a big thing in syndication all through the eighties and into the nineties, I didn't think it was odd they were watching it in this episode.

[SlovakPrincess]

On March 21, 2017 at 11:18 PM, taurusrose said:

Watching episode now and I just have to say Paige has the worst wallpaper ever.  Are they trying to make her crazy?

Heh.  That wallpaper is certainly driving me insane!   Especially since I grew up in the 80s, and I don't remember ever seeing wallpaper as hideous as that! 

Tuan's perspective is interesting, and I like Alexei, but so far I'm not really into this  agriculture plot.  Not sure I'm on board for whatever Oleg's plot is supposed to be this season, either.   The plot with Philip's long lost son?  Eh.  

[qtpye]

I realize on hindsight that Phil's childhood was almost as bad as Tuan.  Elizabeth had it tough, but she was a lady of the manor compared to them both.  I wonder if he feels he has nothing in the world besides her and I wonder if he doubts that he really "has her" , because her true love is the cause?

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I realize on hindsight that Phil's childhood was almost as bad as Tuan.  Elizabeth had it tough, but she was a lady of the manor compared to them both.  I wonder if he feels he has nothing in the world besides her and I wonder if he doubts that he really "has her" , because her true love is the cause?

I think he definitely might think that way. It's interesting that Elizabeth was the one early on who usually talked about having things tough. When Philip asked her if she had ever had good caviar she said she was "like him" in having no money. I remember at least one review that once casually said that we'd been told that Elizabeth's childhood was harder than Philip's. 

But not only does Philip not really talk about having had a hard childhood, he seems to almost passively make it seem better. Or think of it as better. Like even when he's talking to Tuan he doesn't just say that he sometimes went hungry as a child he says he didn't have it as bad as Tuan. Like he's very aware of the good things he had.

[qtpye]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I think he definitely might think that way. It's interesting that Elizabeth was the one early on who usually talked about having things tough. When Philip asked her if she had ever had good caviar she said she was "like him" in having no money. I remember at least one review that once casually said that we'd been told that Elizabeth's childhood was harder than Philip's.

Yeah, we realize he had it rough, but he never let on how rough, until we got that flashback.  That was beyond what anyone expected and their might have been some speculation that his father was in a labor camp.  It is interesting that E seems so much harder then him, but different strokes for different folks.

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, qtpye said:

Yeah, we realize he had it rough, but he never let on how rough, until we got that flashback.  That was beyond what anyone expected and their might have been some speculation that his father was in a labor camp.  It is interesting that E seems so much harder then him, but different strokes for different folks.

There are many ways to have a hard life. My parents both came from very different, but very difficult poverty stricken backgrounds. They were both deeply impacted by their pasts, but in wildly different ways.

[LisaM]

I think I am getting bored. The highlight was MARTHA! Also liked seeing Oleg realized that he is screwed when he listened to the tape.

[Roseanna]

On ‎22‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 5:29 AM, sistermagpie said:

Interesting that Matthew said there was nothing they could do to change the world, since Paige spent like a year being focused on that and is still supposed to be into it. Yet she didn't have anything to say at all about her activism. It kind of shows how maybe Matthew isn't all that perfect for Paige.

I thought that also. But teenagers rarely think rationally how important such things as common goals and values are.   

[Roseanna]

On ‎22‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 5:51 AM, Umbelina said:

Did he really hate that scientist for not knowing who he worked for, or was that just Philip convincing himself once again?  I mean, logically, most scientists don't know why they are doing some things, it's parsed out, they may know their parts of it.  

 

On ‎22‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 5:56 AM, sistermagpie said:

Can't an individual scientist still have something to say? Alexei seems to agree that the Soviet programs are stupid.

 Does "not knowing" really absolve a scientist from guilt if he helps to cause the death of thousands of people - or does it make him worse? At least Philip isn't hypocrite. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎22‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 7:48 PM, sistermagpie said:

But still I can see why his wife and son would be annoyed. Not even because of what specifically he's saying, but because he's so insistent on controlling the narrative and not letting them process in their own way. For him he probably kept the secret that he was running for a long time, treasured it, looked forward to telling it and now he's got these other people not playing the parts they played in his head. 

There's even that nice touch where his wife is accusing him of ruining everything and he says the only thing awful about the US is her (or something like that) and then he kisses her. Like he makes it look like they're having a playful, affectionate conversation. Elizabeth and Philip, of course, know different, but even if they didn't his wife specifically switches to English to say "Pasha is unhappy!" after he does it, not letting him get away with that.

I agree. He only thinks about his own feelings, never about his family.  However, he doesn't completely dominate his family for if that would the case, his son and wife wouldn't dare to say anything.

On the other hand, the reason why he always repeats the self-evident facts is that nobody has ever listened to him with empathy. When he complains about the USSR, somebody should say something like: "you feel anger/bitterness", "you regard it unjust", "you can't forgive it", in short give the words to his feelings.      

[Roseanna]

On ‎22‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 4:48 PM, chick binewski said:

I have always found Elizabeth's point of view to be the most maddening part of this show. If her unwavering devotion to her country is due to her being a forever true believer as @Umbelina stated, I'm not sure how the show could do it but I'd love to see it addressed in some sort of way where we could understand it better. She's been raising her children in a home with all amenities and no shortage of food, education or money. How would she feel transporting them to a place where anything they were given was only due to who their parents were? 

Haven't Paige and Henry also in the US got everything because their parents pretend to be white middle-class people who earn enough money to life comfortably? If their parents wre poor, they wouldn't have healthy food and their school would be poor.  

I am not saying it wouldn't been a great shock to Paige and Henry to move to the USSR and of course they would long for all they had. But would they rather lose their parents?       

On ‎22‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 5:55 PM, chick binewski said:

For me it's very difficult to understand Elizabeth. She only lived in the USSR as a regular citizen until she was a teenager. Part of her introduction to spy life was being raped and the Centre allowing it. She's lived in the US for all of her adult life and nothing has turned her head? I'd like to see it explored why her faith in her country hasn't eroded. 

I have read a study about "political generations". According to it, people have the most profound experiences according to which they base their world-view when they are 16-18 years of age and not  yet participate in the events. Later, great happenings either strenghten or shatter their worldview.  

As for Elizabeth, she was in training to become a spy from the age of 16, so she couldn't experience the "liberal" 60ies. In the USA, she hadn't seen only the white middle-class life style she herself has, but also, through Gregory, how the black and poor people live.

No doubt she has stong defensive methods, but because she must live undercover, she haven't had even a chance to discuss freely about the USSR with anybody, except Philip.  

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, Roseanna said:

 Does "not knowing" really absolve a scientist from guilt if he helps to cause the death of thousands of people - or does it make him worse? At least Philip isn't hypocrite. 

Good point. Though it would also probably depend on what the person was doing. There's a lot of research scientists could do that wouldn't lead them to worry it would be used for bad reasons--or for bad reasons exclusively. The guy probably studies bugs for a living and his research would be used for many different purposes. Philip's job is sometimes like that (when he's just gathering information) but when the possibility for a bad purpose is obvious he questions it, like with the bio-weapons.

10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I agree. He only thinks about his own feelings, never about his family.  However, he doesn't completely dominate his family for if that would the case, his son and wife wouldn't dare to say anything.

 

Yes, he's not abusive or oppressive to them,  just frustrating. He does want to be listened to with empathy, but unfortunately the other people in his family are also focused on the empathy they're not getting. It's funny that even when he thinks he's talking to an American who could usually be counted on to agree that the USSR sounds terrible he's actually just annoying another Russian. And ironically, it's with the American that he's able to explore his own doubts he denies to his family.

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I have read a study about "political generations". According to it, people have the most profound experiences according to which they base their world-view when they are 16-18 years of age and not  yet participate in the events. Later, great happenings either strenghten or shatter their worldview.  

 

Very true. Also I was also thinking of this in connection with the few posts above it about Philip and Elizabeth's contrasting hard life. Although Elizabeth clearly lived with scarcity, it played out in a very different way and a lot of her hard lessons seem connected more to her relationship with her mother who taught her how important it was to be independent and loyal to the cause, that you couldn't depend on other people for help. I've always gotten the impression that Elizabeth's life was materially basically secure, even if it was hard (except maybe when her mother was sick and Elizabeth may have feared she was going to die).

We still don't really know enough about Philip's story to understand what his relationships were like in early life, but from the flashbacks it seems like survival was more of a concrete day-to-day issue. So one of the bigger contrasts of their life would be that Elizabeth would remember her mother being offered a crate full of food on principal while Philip was more about getting food however you could. Both parents tell Paige stories about their parents fighting with other people on their behalf--with Elizabeth her mother's yelling at noisy neighbors so Elizabeth can do homework; with Philip her mother's having to fight to get Philip's salary from a greedy boss. 

So one of the things the show seemed to hit on hard and often even early on was that Elizabeth was taught to fear lack of commitment from an early age. Her politics aren't just intellectual and it's very hard for her to admit having doubts. She already knows how to think about the comforts of life in the US. 

[Roseanna]

47 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

So one of the things the show seemed to hit on hard and often even early on was that Elizabeth was taught to fear lack of commitment from an early age. Her politics aren't just intellectual and it's very hard for her to admit having doubts. She already knows how to think about the comforts of life in the US. 

Pasha's father's politics is also personal: it's not really about queuing in the Soviet Union but his father's arrest and death in the camp. Which shows that Elizabeth's reaction isn't self-evident - she could have become bitter how harsly his father desertation was condemned.

Some have wondered here why Elizabeth doesn't regard the US better and the Soviet Union simply because of material things. But a Communist didn't compare the reality of the these countries, she compared the reality of the US (which of course wasn't perfect) with an imaginary future in the Communist utopia.

Also, maybe Americans who are descendants of immigrants, are unable to understand that to people like P & E, however poor their homeland is, it's still home and simply for that reason dearest on the earth (although, having lived nearly 20 years abroad, they would have difficulties to cope - they left the country that was still optimistic, and they would return to a very different country, that is before Gorbatschow).

[sistermagpie]

37 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Pasha's father's politics is also personal: it's not really about queuing in the Soviet Union but his father's arrest and death in the camp. Which shows that Elizabeth's reaction isn't self-evident - she could have become bitter how harsly his father desertation was condemned.

 

Oh, I agree! I think everyone's are on some level. But comparing Elizabeth and Pasha's father is a great example. It's hard to know exactly how Elizabeth relates to the story about her father being a coward since she herself never even acknowledges it. She just says her father died in the war. But it feels like it must play into her own commitment. Her choice for most of her life is always to react to things by being more committed to the cause. It almost seems like she prefers causes to people because she sees people as being less reliable. That's why it's a big deal when she starts committing to Philip. It never seems odd to me that she hasn't questioned her allegiances at all.

[Roseanna]

On ‎29‎.‎8‎.‎2017 at 10:26 PM, sistermagpie said:

her father being a coward 

I wouldn't call Elizabeth's father a coward just because he deserted as we (and Elizabeth) didn't know circumstances. Maybe he was a pacifist or didnät want to defend Stalin's power or had a mental breakdown or put his family first?

In the Soviet Union the punishments were very harsh, f.ex. in Stalingrad thousands of soldiers were executed. Commanders who failed could be executed. Millions of men were caught and become POWs because it was forbidden to retreat without an order. Soldiers's life wasn't worth a copeck but they could be wasted as there always came new. In 1941 men of the drawing crowds (I don't know if the term is right) were sent to the front without any training or even guns. And unlike in the American and British army, there was no understanding nor mercy for those suffering of mental breakdown. 

Maybe the harsness was partly justified in order to stop the Nazis.  Yet, I find odd that, at least in public, the Russians don't discuss whether at least some sacrifices weren't necessary.

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I wouldn't call Elizabeth's father a coward just because he deserted as we (and Elizabeth) didn't know circumstances. Maybe he was a pacifist or didnät want to defend Stalin's power or had a mental breakdown or put his family first?

Oh, I didn't mean I personally considered him a coward. I've got no right to judge how somebody else acted in a war! I meant that seemed to be the message Elizabeth was getting, that he was a coward or a traitor. Because all we know about it is that her mother said that the memorial to the fallen soldiers that Elizabeth goes to every year in his memory is, according to her mother "not for him" because "he ran away" and they shot him. 

I've always assumed he was a soldier and just broke under the pressure of the war and ran, like I believe happened to many many people. I don't consider him a coward--and I personally think that he deserves being honored as one of the fallen. But Elizabeth's mother specifically told her this in response to Elizabeth suggesting that he "deserved" some respect from her.

That's why I find it so interesting to think of how she thinks about it. Because she doesn't openly denounce her father to anyone we see. When she tells Philip who she is she just says her father died at Stalingrad (iirc). Yet she has this memory of her mother telling her this--and when Philip asks what she's thinking about she doesn't tell him that story. Is she supposed to be so ashamed she can't tell anyone? Or is she actually being protective of her father? 

[Roseanna]

15 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Oh, I didn't mean I personally considered him a coward. I've got no right to judge how somebody else acted in a war! I meant that seemed to be the message Elizabeth was getting, that he was a coward or a traitor. Because all we know about it is that her mother said that the memorial to the fallen soldiers that Elizabeth goes to every year in his memory is, according to her mother "not for him" because "he ran away" and they shot him. 

I've always assumed he was a soldier and just broke under the pressure of the war and ran, like I believe happened to many many people. I don't consider him a coward--and I personally think that he deserves being honored as one of the fallen. But Elizabeth's mother specifically told her this in response to Elizabeth suggesting that he "deserved" some respect from her.

That's why I find it so interesting to think of how she thinks about it. Because she doesn't openly denounce her father to anyone we see. When she tells Philip who she is she just says her father died at Stalingrad (iirc). Yet she has this memory of her mother telling her this--and when Philip asks what she's thinking about she doesn't tell him that story. Is she supposed to be so ashamed she can't tell anyone? Or is she actually being protective of her father? 

I think Elizabeth's reaction to be silent about her father's fate is quite natural for a Soviet citizen as the family was systematically ostrakized by the state. In that case, Elizabeth and her widowed mother would have lived in much worse circumstances than Phillip who had two parents living.

What I find strange is the scene between Elizabeth and her mother. If they had moved elsewhere, the mother would surely kept the matter secret from Elizabeth, or even told some heroic tale to her. Or if they still lived in the same neigborhood where all knew about the matter, why would the mother keep the photo of her husband and let her daughter admire him until she told her not to?

It seems to me that the scene was made to inform the audience about the matter that was self-evident to the Soviet citizens.        

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I think Elizabeth's reaction to be silent about her father's fate is quite natural for a Soviet citizen as the family was systematically ostrakized by the state. In that case, Elizabeth and her widowed mother would have lived in much worse circumstances than Phillip who had two parents living.

Do you have any thoughts on why this doesn't seem to be the case? Because it doesn't seem like Elizabeth's family was ostracized--her mother worked at a party office and their living conditions actually seem just fine. The guy who offers the mother food doesn't seems to be trying to give the mother special perks that most people don't have (rather than taking pity on someone who has less) and he's willing to break the rules to give it to her.

Plus Elizabeth's tapped for what would I assume to be one of the most respected jobs there is when she's only 16. There's really nothing that says that Elizabeth lived in worse circumstances than Philip even before his own mother was widowed. His living conditions seem obviously worse than hers, actually. Even if that's mostly down to geography they still seem worse.

Edited September 2, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Roseanna]

12 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Do you have any thoughts on why this doesn't seem to be the case? Because it doesn't seem like Elizabeth's family was ostracized--her mother worked at a party office and their living conditions actually seem just fine. The guy who offers the mother food doesn't seems to be trying to give the mother special perks that most people don't have (rather than taking pity on someone who has less) and he's willing to break the rules to give it to her.

Plus Elizabeth's tapped for what would I assume to be one of the most respected jobs there is when she's only 16. There's really nothing that says that Elizabeth lived in worse circumstances than Philip even before his own mother was widowed. His living conditions seem obviously worse than hers, actually. Even if that's mostly down to geography they still seem worse.

I suppose this is one of the things that are not outwardly "realistic" (just as Mischa's grandfather lived in a communalka although that was rare in the 80ies). After all, it's far more important that Elizabeth's reaction - to atone her father's crime by saving the motherland as a spy - is psychologically true.

Regarding Philip, maybe there is something in his past that is not yet told. His parents could have been deportees - but then his mother couldn't have helped him to get his pay.