S02.E14: Moonshot

[Andromeda]

2 hours ago, DeadZeus said:

Something is driving me insane... Eobard says he has worked together with Cisco and Caitlyn.. But this makes no sense AFAIK. The Eobard that worked with them died/got erased from existence... This Eobard was running through time/speedforce when that happened. So that was prior to him meeting them... So how can THIS Eobard on the shuttle have worked with Cisco and Caitlyn... Just a mistake from the writers or am i missing something? Pretty sure the Eobard that was with Cisco and Caitlyn didn't time travel for over 20 year cuz he was stuck there, making a remnant of Eobard that has worked with Cisco/Caitlyn impossible IMO

Good point! I'm confused about another thing. The young boy at NASA was about 10 years old. Five years earlier, in 1965, his father was dropped into "the future," leaving his family behind...in the 1940s, right? Or not? Because the kid should be an adult if he was little in the 1940s.

[MarkHB]

No, they said when the mission to (Estonia?) was that ended with the JSA's disappearance, and it was in the 50's.  5 years earlier might have been the point Steel arrived at.

[squidprincess]

IIRC, the mission was in 1956.  So if that was the year that young Hank was born, he'd be thirteen or fourteen in 1970.  Which seemed about right to me, though I'm really bad at identifying children's ages.

Edited March 19, 2017 by squidprincess

[Aeryn13]

I really liked this episode. 

Normally, I`m not Nate`s biggest fan but I felt so bad for him when his grandfather sacrificed himself. 

Also, the pairing of Ray and Thawne actually worked pretty well. I loved when Ray did his the Martian-narration and then you hear "what the hell are you doing?" before Thawne comes into view. The final scene where Ray called him out was really a nice pay-off to all their moments.

I didn`t think Sara was particularly bossy or over the top, it was just awkward from Rip`s perspective to stumble back into a dynamic that has changed without him and moved on from what he remembers it to be. But his contributions weren`t worthless this episode either. He was the one who came up with the solution of blowing the hangar door.

Legends is truly the DC-verse show I enjoy the most right now.

Oh, and can the little stone figures from Ray`s dinosaur era please be in the opening every time from now on when it says "we are legends"? This was so darling and I want to keep it.   

[Sakura12]

Maybe some archaeologist finds those stone figures and that's how the team gets to be known as Legends. 

[Argenta]

From Matt Letscher's Instagram, a two part video showing how Ray and Eobard's zero-G fight was filmed.

(To note, 'Andrew' is the name of Brandon Routh's stunt double.)

[ElleMo]

On 3/16/2017 at 4:33 PM, zannej said:

Matt Letscher apparently did something on "periscope" (not sure what that is) to explain Thawne's existence. Someone said there was a link but I couldn't find it. But he did confirm that this *is* the time remnant of the Thawne who spent 15 years stranded in the past living as Wells. Which makes me wonder why he seems less experienced/knowledgeable in some ways. Unless maybe he just doesn't care about mucking up time because he's already a time remnant & if he gets the spear he can set things right. Interesting that he mentioned Cisco and Caitlin but not Barry. And with Flashpoint having changed things, maybe this version of Eobard never came to care about Barry as much? Also, how could he have gone through those 15 years while probably knowing that Eddie was going to kill himself? You just know Bigmouth Barry probably would have told him that.

I think I'm going to accept that Thawne didn't have his powers while in zero gravity (for whatever reason) but that he could use them while on the moon and on the Waverider but he was trying to avoid attracting zombie zoom. Plus, he promised to "play nice" until they got to Earth and he kept his word.

Also, I found it funny how he seemed to respect Ray after awhile and tried to gain his trust, but as soon as he got on the Waverider he started calling the team "morons".

1

Well, I am thinking and warm and fuzzy feelings he had for Barry left him when Barry stranded him as a time remnant. 

Yes, Eobard does seem to have some sort of honor code so I believe that he would keep his word.

[KirkB]

6 hours ago, ElleMo said:

Also, I found it funny how he seemed to respect Ray after awhile and tried to gain his trust, but as soon as he got on the Waverider he started calling the team "morons".

Well, he probably thinks Ray is pretty smart (inferior to him, obviously, but still...) but the rest are, well, not. To Thawne 99% of the people around him are probably morons.

[Miss Dee]

From Legion of Doom: "They're idiots."

[legaleagle53]

1 hour ago, Miss Dee said:

From Legion of Doom: "They're idiots."

Followed by a cut to Mick telling the team "You're idiots."  In other words, Eobard wasn't completely wrong.

[kassygreene]

Ok, finally saw the episode and caught up with the comments.  Banana Boat Song - fabulous.  Addressing what Rip's position will be - mature.

And thank you, Timeless, for keeping me practiced in shrugging "whut ev" this year.  Because:

1. the interior of the LEM was not that big
2. the LEM did not have seats (which saved weight in the design)
3. the LEM did not have an airlock (they pressurized/de-pressurized the entire capsule)
4. the Apollo 11 site did have a flag, but it also had:
   1. the landing stage of the Eagle's LEM
   2. all the "trash" they threw out before take-off, including those big backpacks
   3. lots of footprints
   4. and the flag was on the ground, because the rocket blast of the ascending LEM knocked it over

As I said, thank you Timeless, for making it easier to handwave.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 3/15/2017 at 2:00 PM, pancake bacon said:

On 3/15/2017 at 0:27 AM, Cthulhudrew said:

Letscher and Cavanagh. That would be cool.

It's an Eli Stone father and son reunion! Cavanagh was Papa Stone and Letscher was son, Nate. Maybe Sherlock will fly in from New York to solve things. (Jonny Lee Miller played Eli.)

Victor Garber was on the show, too.

 

On 3/18/2017 at 7:11 PM, zannej said:

Wait.. I thought the Lunar Module re-docked and connected back with the rest of the ship.

I think so, too.

[mac123x]

On ‎3‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 8:57 AM, Aeryn13 said:

Legends is truly the DC-verse show I enjoy the most right now

Same here!  I chalk it up to 1) they're willing to embrace the silliness and 2) it's truly an ensemble instead of a main character with a supporting cast.

[kismet]

On 3/17/2017 at 5:14 AM, ketose said:

I'd like to know what Rip's plan to track Heywood was. If Rip could find him before 1970, they should have gone with that. Apollo was a cluster.

I know I should lower my expectations, but Legends has a similar problem with NBC's Timeless. They always want to go back to big historical events and completely change them, then ignore the consequences unless it is serves a story. An entire missing astronaut is apparently less important than George Lucas not making a movie.

It would have been nice to know his plan, but I just assumed it was the same. They had tried to go back in time to find Heywood when Rip dropped him off and he faded too quickly into anonymity. It was only through looking at random government positions, that they stumbled upon Heywood at the helm of the Apollo 13 mission. That is why they went back to that time. Once they got there, they talked with Heywood and he told them about his mission to keep it safe. It was Ray who saw the moon pic in his office and put 2 and 2 together that that is where the piece was located.

At that point, they could have gone to the moon to get it. But further talking to Heywood made them realize that an aberration had occurred because the Apollo 13 mission was not having any problems. So they were forced to tackle the mission the way they did after realizing that Thawne was also in the same moment of time trying to get the piece of spear.

Agree that I don't always like that the show glosses over the consequences of changing time by their visits. But I do appreciate that they show some changes have happened. An entire astronaut missing should have been addressed. I just assume that he is either found somewhere in the spaceship, or is considered MIA & lost in action to the space mission. Because i don't believe the lunar module made it back.

Personally, I think they would have been better to just choose a random Apollo Mission that landed on the moon, with less familiarity than the one the general public knows a lot about from the Tom Hank's movie or the fact it was one of the missions that had some failures.

On 3/17/2017 at 9:17 AM, KirkB said:

It was, but they needed to get into Apollo because they had figured out the piece of the Spear was on the moon. Just finding Heywood wouldn't have done them any good. Although, come to think of it, an easier way (and less of an interesting episode, admittedly) would probably have been to go back to just after the first Americans on the moon left, when I presume the flag and thus the Spear piece were placed, and pick it up.

They didn't know about it being on the moon until they met with Heywood. And they didn't know about where Heywood was until he showed up in the press photos for Apollo. They only chose Apollo because it led them to Heywood. It was Heywood that initially chose to infiltrate the Apollo program to get the piece of the spear onto the moon.

[kismet]

On 3/18/2017 at 7:03 PM, jhlipton said:

They've already swapped one Woman of Color for another (and made a huge trade up!)  I just don't like the idea that WoC are interchangeable parts.  

ERA:  Boo to Legends for not having any women, much less black women at Mission Control.  I guess none of the PTB saw Hidden Figures...

Agree that I don't like the interchangeable parts concept. It's a concept common in Hollywood and I just don't like it.

I actually think the show was being true to NASA's history by having a white men only mission control center. I've read Hidden Figures, and the black women's contribution was not on display at NASA and certainly not in mission control. Women were BTS contributors. Their contributions were invaluable and in many ways made the missions possible, but they were kept outside of the actual mission control room for a long while. And it was until recently that NASA highlighted the groups outside of white men that made the Space missions possible. By the time a lot of the Apollo missions occurred there had been restructuring of the organization and some civil rights changes. A lot of things were changing during those times for both females and females of color, with the Civil Rights Amendment in 1964. Another major change was when NASA moved it's mission control from Langley, Virginia to Houston, Texas. That from the historian's reporting in Hidden Figures seemed to change some of the racial make-up of NASA.

The movie was great and really showed the contributions the black women made, but it streamlined some facts and perhaps made them more visible than they were in those time periods. Also the major scene with John Glenn & Kathryn Johnson was during the Mercury missions which were a few years before the Apollo missions.

While I wish that the show had found a way to make the hidden figures of NASA visible like Timeless had done in their space mission episode. I don't think it was necessary, since most of the NASA scenes were done in mission control and really were not about NASA at all.

[kismet]

I was late to watching this episode because of life, but so glad I saw it. Because honestly, this was probably one of my favorite LoT episodes.

• I loved the randomness of Stein breaking into song, and Banana Boat song! I truly believe that Stein was a Belafonte fan.
• I loved Ray's entire journey this episode. From his giddy love of space, his cheesy pop culture references, to working with the villain to save one another & everyone. It was just perfectly written by the writers and executed by BR.
• I loved Jax using his natural accent if only for one line
• I loved Rip & Sara's resolution to the Captain issue. I think of Rip as the Capt. of the actual ship. But Sara as the Capt of the Team. So I think there will always be a place for both of them while they are on the Waverider. I also think that they had different leadership styles and both have their pros & cons. I do think the show demonstrated this episode, that Sara's leadership style is more effective for their current mission and the team on the whole. I also really love the misfit bonding moment at the end of the ep. Rip must truly feel adrift considering most of the season he has not been himself. He was either stuck in Phil's brain or the Legions brain manipulations. To come back and not have your original place must be hard for him. Especially when it is his ship, and he is the reason the team is together in the first place. To recognize that all of that is not as important as having SL be a good leader takes a lot. I don't think they will call Rip Capt to avoid confusion. But I do believe it is a title/rank he will never lose. Like most military & government titles, you may not be doing the job anymore, but you still hold the rank and are referred to as such. A retired captain is still referred to as Captain.
• I enjoyed Nate & Amaya's connection and helping each other through tragedy. I did feel for Nate's loss not only of his Grandfather, but also his hope to have his Father be happier. It was like a double whammy - he not only lost his dream to reunite his family, but then his GF actually died.
• I loved that the Villain was humanized to some degree and shown as vulnerable. I enjoy that Thawne does have some moral code, especially when his life is on the line. It was smart how they wrote him as so confident of his plan, but still a little hesitant once the mission started. I think he was grateful to have a stowaway onboard.
• It was the best usage and death of a JSA member in relation to the spear. I actually was invested in Heywood's mission to the moon. Whereas, the other ones just didn't translate as well.
• I liked the Space Mission idea. Although I wish they had chosen another random Apollo mission to hijack for plot purposes. Although 13 was the only one that was successful at launching into space, but unsuccessful in its mission of landing on the moon, so perhaps it was the only one the writers could use without causing an aberration. If they had manipulated another mission, people would have complained that it caused an aberration.
• I didn't appreciate the multiple liberties they took with NASA & space science, but I can handwave a lot of it because the show rarely gets the science right. And generally glosses over major details. I'm not a NASA or Space expert. But I've seen & read enough about the early space missions, to know that a lot of what they were doing was more interpretation of space science than actual science. Even by Hollywood standards, they were very liberalized in their application of space science and logic.

For all of that though, it was a very balanced show. It had everything good about LoT from good character exploration & interactions. To crazy plots that take place in big historical moments. It also had some of its usually plot holes, like missing astronaut. But even those holes were not as big as they could have been. And if they had explained missing astronaut it wouldn't have changed or mattered for the series's story. So by not explaining it, it leaves it open for interpretation. Although like many of you, I do wonder what happened to the Apollo 13 the movies. Because that was one of the first movies, that got me interested in NASA and space. And it seems like it's a whole different "Houston we have a problem", definitely more mystery than suspenseful make it work movie. Maybe Swiggert just left a post it note saying Goodbye, instead of "NO" on the eject button.

[jhlipton]

6 hours ago, kismet said:

While I wish that the show had found a way to make the hidden figures of NASA visible like Timeless had done in their space mission episode. I don't think it was necessary, since most of the NASA scenes were done in mission control and really were not about NASA at all.

Thanks for the info.  I remember watching the moon shots, and mission control was all white men -- it just would have been fun to have a bit of revisionist history.

5 hours ago, kismet said:

I loved that the Villain was humanized to some degree and shown as vulnerable. I enjoy that Thawne does have some moral code

Except for when he doesn't.  He's perfectly happy to murder (G Washington, for example), but, heck, he kept his word this one time -- what a swell guy.  I have to disagree.

[kismet]

Quote

Thanks for the info.  I remember watching the moon shots, and mission control was all white men -- it just would have been fun to have a bit of revisionist history.

I'm not a huge fan of revisionist history, especially when there is a rich actual history they could have used. Revisionist history to me always feels a little like people lying or manipulating the truth. History is history, there are facts that can't be revised. There are facts and truths that can be told from a different perspective or perhaps have been buried, or misunderstood, you can bring attention to those. But to revise what actually happened, just doesn't sit well with me. That is one of the reasons, I did like the way Timeless did it, because they didn't revise history, they just highlighted and brought attention to hidden parts of NASA history. Overall, I think LoT has been doing a good job being honest to history, but also trying to bring modernity and different perspective to it. They have tackled some big topics from slavery, racism, sexism & prejudice. And I have appreciated the efforts they have made to be true to the historical facts, but also change minds. I just don't think this was an episode that needed that in regards to females in NASA.

1 hour ago, jhlipton said:

Except for when he doesn't.  He's perfectly happy to murder (G Washington, for example), but, heck, he kept his word this one time -- what a swell guy.  I have to disagree.

Well, he keeps his promises that is something. I realize he is bad guy and does bad things. I'm just saying he doesn't go back on his word, that is some type of code. And a lot of modern villains do not have any code at all. They will promise one thing and change their mind the next second. I appreciate when he says he'll keep his word he does, there is civility there. He still should not murder people, but it's a matter of perspective. As villains go, I prefer the more civil ones or the ones that keep to some type of code, especially as long-term antagonists for the heroes.

[jhlipton]

4 hours ago, kismet said:

 I just don't think this was an episode that needed that in regards to females in NASA.

As villains go, I prefer the more civil ones or the ones that keep to some type of code, especially as long-term antagonists for the heroes.

I can see both of these -- agreed.

[Argenta]

12 hours ago, kismet said:

I liked the Space Mission idea. Although I wish they had chosen another random Apollo mission to hijack for plot purposes. Although 13 was the only one that was successful at launching into space, but unsuccessful in its mission of landing on the moon, so perhaps it was the only one the writers could use without causing an aberration. If they had manipulated another mission, people would have complained that it caused an aberration.

As well as that, I think they deliberately chose the Apollo 13 mission because its events are so well-known, thanks in large part to the movie. Most people will be familiar with how things originally went down so they didn't have to spend time explaining all that, and IMO it just resonates more with the viewers if they already know something about the historical situation the Legends are visiting.

Swigert apparently going nuts, assaulting his fellow astronauts and then vanishing will still be a pretty big aberration though...not to mention Nate's grandfather, who was an important figure at NASA, also disappearing without trace! People are going to think he and Swigert were in love and ran off together.

[Miss Dee]

"In a world....where their love was forbidden.... they reached for the stars."

APOLLO 13: A LOVE STORY. Coming to a theatre near you!

(Psssst.... I hear Kevin Bacon has a *really* steamy love scene....)

Edited March 23, 2017 by Miss Dee

[kismet]

That is certainly a steamy twist on things.

[jhlipton]

On Time After Time, they say they can't change the past, even as they do so on a micro level if not a macro level.  I love that this show just says "screw it! 'Set points' Fluid til it's not!  Whatevs!!!"

[Argenta]

4 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

"In a world....where their love was forbidden.... they reached for the stars."

APOLLO 13: A LOVE STORY. Coming to a theatre near you!

(Psssst.... I hear Kevin Bacon has a *really* steamy love scene....)

I need to rent this movie immediately XD

[Miss Dee]

Apparently it's based on a true story? Tom Hanks is in it as Kevin's love interest, Henry Heywood. Should be a good role for him. Might even net him a second Oscar. There was strong buzz around him and that Philadelphia movie that got scuttled a few years back.

[KirkB]

14 hours ago, Argenta said:

As well as that, I think they deliberately chose the Apollo 13 mission because its events are so well-known, thanks in large part to the movie. Most people will be familiar with how things originally went down so they didn't have to spend time explaining all that, and IMO it just resonates more with the viewers if they already know something about the historical situation the Legends are visiting.

I think that's why LoT the show chose it, because it IS so well known and doesn't need much explanation, but it doesn't make sense why the Legion chose it. They needed to get to the moon because that's where the Spear was, but Apollo 13 never actually made it. Unless Thawne's plan was to change the past so Apollo 13 indeed did land. Obviously they wouldn't be too worried about causing aberrations.

Edited March 23, 2017 by KirkB

[Argenta]

2 hours ago, KirkB said:

I think that's why LoT the show chose it, because it IS so well known and doesn't need much explanation, but it doesn't make sense why the Legion chose it. They needed to get to the moon because that's where the Spear was, but Apollo 13 never actually made it. Unless Thawne's plan was to change the past so Apollo 13 indeed did land. Obviously they wouldn't be too worried about causing aberrations.

I assume that was Eobard's plan - the oxygen tanks never exploded in this version, so it seems he must have done something to prevent that? And yeah, if you're planning to rewrite the whole of reality itself, you probably won't concern yourself with a few piddling aberrations ?

[kismet]

On 3/23/2017 at 11:41 AM, Miss Dee said:

Apparently it's based on a true story? Tom Hanks is in it as Kevin's love interest, Henry Heywood. Should be a good role for him. Might even net him a second Oscar. There was strong buzz around him and that Philadelphia movie that got scuttled a few years back.

Tom Hanks already has 2 Oscars :) Although it could garner him a third. I guess since Henry is the hero in this movie, no need for him to be playing Lovell.

[Miss Dee]

Yes, I was being facetious. In imagining how astronaut Jack Swigert and controller Henry Heywood disappeared would cause a sensation in this timeline,  and that the resulting "gay lovers" speculation would result in Apollo 13 being shot as a love story, I was also imagining a time aberration being that Philadelphia (for which Hanks got his first Oscar) never got made...so this becomes the movie in which his portrayal of a gay man nets him an Oscar.

[ketose]

19 minutes ago, Miss Dee said:

Yes, I was being facetious. In imagining how astronaut Jack Swigert and controller Henry Heywood disappeared would cause a sensation in this timeline,  and that the resulting "gay lovers" speculation would result in Apollo 13 being shot as a love story, I was also imagining a time aberration being that Philadelphia (for which Hanks got his first Oscar) never got made...so this becomes the movie in which his portrayal of a gay man nets him an Oscar.

I'd like an aberration where Tom Hanks' biggest role was in Bosom Buddies and Peter Scolari became a multiple Oscar winner.

[MarkHB]

Scolari was good in an unlike-anything-I'd-ever-seen-him-in role on Gotham, so at least he made it to DC.