Tinsley Mortimer: Former High Society "IT Girl"

[Jel]

35 minutes ago, film noire said:

I don't see how the phrase "self inflicted" (which Celia applied to Tinsley) does not indicate cause on Tinsley's part.

But do you see how taking two words out of a post might not represent the full intent of the poster? 

[Celia Rubenstein]

Quote

I don't see how the phrase "self inflicted" (which Celia applied to Tinsley) does not indicate cause on Tinsley's part.

Maybe this will clear it up for you:

2 hours ago, QuinnM said:

 It was suggested she was stalking him for over a year after the break up. She wasn't just not able to leave but she was legally obligated to not return for over a year before the final arrest. The nasty photos with the black eye and stitches was in 2012. The final showdown was in 2013. The court appearance was 2015.  RHONYC is filmed about 3 years later.   So Bethenny isn't alone in wondering.   And I'm sure Tinsley behavior looks a lot like Hoppy  

Nobody has ever said that Tinsley is responsible for her boyfriend's choice to be a violent asshole.  She did not CAUSE him to hit her.  But she is responsible for her choice to constantly put herself around him, going so far as to actually break the law by doing it. I don't see how anyone can dispute this.

You know, this is becoming ridiculously circular. Either you understand the difference or you don't.  I fear other people are getting tired of seeing it re-hashed over and over.  I know I am, so peace out in re: this subject. 

Edited June 26, 2017 by Celia Rubenstein

[film noire]

46 minutes ago, Jel said:

But do you see how taking two words out of a post might not represent the full intent of the poster? 

The exchange stands on its own -- it was not in a larger post, it was this:

Me: When you're heading up a group for women in crisis, then (to use Frankel's favorite word) YES, you are required to be supportive of women in crisis.

CR: Even if you feel their crisis is mainly self-inflicted?

I don't see any other way to interpret that sentence. The words are not ambiguous or unclear.

Neither is this: 

Quote

 Celia: At some point you DO become responsible for your own choices and any damage you experience is at least arguably partially self-inflicted. 

These are two definitive statements, imo; they are not being unfairly presented or unfairly interpreted.

Edited June 26, 2017 by film noire

[918lux]

41 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

Maybe this will clear it up for you:

Nobody has ever said that Tinsley is responsible for her boyfriend's choice to be a violent asshole.  She did not CAUSE him to hit her.  But she is responsible for her choice to constantly put herself around him, going so far as to actually break the law by doing it. I don't see how anyone can dispute this.

You know, this is becoming ridiculously circular. Either you understand the difference or you don't.  I fear other people are getting tired of seeing it re-hashed over and over.  I know I am, so peace out in re: this subject. 

It seems like you don't have a very clear understanding of what it is like to be in an abusive relationship and how difficult it is to try to remove yourself from the situation.  To say that her situation was self-inflicted is wrong, and quite frankly, cruel.

[Jel]

Ah, well I was referring to CR's longer post where she used those words. 

Besides, in this example, isn't CR talking about what Bethenny might be thinking?  

Please feel free to message me if you want the Jel-splanation long answer.  I can have 20 pages for you in about 10 minutes  ;)

(Plus it feels weird to be talking about another poster so much. Sorry Celia!)

[zoeysmom]

Thank you Breezy for bringing up the link to the article.

I find Tinsley to be quite articulate and brutally honest (maybe a bad choice of words) in her feelings surrounding being in an abusive relationship.  I think she is kind of a breath of fresh air to the series and as I mentioned on another thread, years ago there was a story about Luann allegedly getting liquored up singing on stage,  grabbing a guy's crotch at a Hampton's wedding reception and the Count beating on her in the parking lot.  Luann denied the story but damn wasn't the more important rumor and one deserving some serious sympathy that her husband allegedly beat on her?  Ramona and others focused on the alleged crotch grab and the off key singing.  Priorities ladies, priorities.  Some of the other RH used her off key singing as yet another reason for her to not write her book.  What is with the singing so bad she deserved to be beaten?  I don't understand some people's train of thought. 

[film noire]

12 minutes ago, Jel said:

Ah, well I was referring to CR's longer post where she used those words. 

Besides, in this example, isn't CR talking about what Bethenny might be thinking?  

The same idea was repeated twice.

The first time, it was the only exchange in a post with me (no larger or longer post; my comment and then hers, end of post) and the second time reiterates the same idea, delivered  from a first person perspective, not Bethenny's:

"At some point you DO become responsible for your own choices and any damage you experience is at least arguably partially self-inflicted."

Quote

Please feel free to message me if you want the Jel-splanation long answer.  I can have 20 pages for you in about 10 minutes  ;)

 I appreciate the offer, Jel,  but no need - thanks ;)

Edited June 26, 2017 by film noire

[BBHN]

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I don't see any other way to interpret that sentence

Some of us apparently do.

Quote

What is with the singing so bad she deserved to be beaten?  I don't understand some people's train of thought. 

Did anyone say she deserved to be beaten?

And why are discussing Luann in a situation that didn't even involve Tinsley on Tinsley's thread? Luann has her own thread for that.

[motorcitymom65]

3 hours ago, Jel said:

If she does get to a point where she wants to press charges, can she still or is there a time limit on that?

I didn't like the "abusive" thing either.   I didn't see the need for the on-the-record skepticism about it, I mean the rest of the sentence was plenty insensitive on its own.

This is what I am wondering as well. Could she still press charges, if she gets to a point where she feels strong enough, or just wants to do it?

I realize that being abused is horrible enough all on its own, and that having to then deal with the legal system is extremely traumatic. I get there are a lot of reasons why women in such situations cannot get to the point where they can face their abusers in court. But it sounds like this dude and his family are a nightmare, and at the end of the day, another real shame is that he won't be punished. That he and his powerful family can just get away with treating someone like this with no consequences. And here is the rub for me. I am not blaming her in any way, nor saying she deserved anything that happened to her. I like her so far, and am rooting for her 100%. He is the abuser and she is the victim. But while the legal process is hard to suffer through, she is taking it instead to a reality show. She is talking about it in interviews. She isn't hiding from any of it, and I would assume reliving it on the show (as it would appear in the next episode). 

So please don't anyone hate me or spit shit on your computer, but I can see how someone like Beth - who does not back down and fights for her rights when she is wronged through a complex legal system if necessary, would wonder why someone with such resources and family support has decided to not tell her story in court and potentially put a stop to the behavior, but to instead tell her story on a reality TV show. She could do both. Maybe though this is the best revenge for Tinsley. To get on a show with a fairly loyal following and tell the world slowly what kind of a person this guy is. 

[Celia Rubenstein]

Ugh, I know I just said I was out of this, but I find the personal attack a bit much and I feel entitled to respond to the following:

 

1 hour ago, 918lux said:

It seems like you don't have a very clear understanding of what it is like to be in an abusive relationship and how difficult it is to try to remove yourself from the situation.  To say that her situation was self-inflicted is wrong, and quite frankly, cruel.

Without violating the privacy of a person very close to me, I will just say that you are quite wrong.  I actually do have some personal experience in abusive relationships. Perhaps it is this experience I have had which is so similar to Bethenny's that makes me think I understand what she was getting at with the "abused" thing she said about Tinsley.  It's hard to watch a person you care about choose over and over to make self-destructive decisions and you can start to lose patience with the behavior.  That frustration doesn't mean you don't understand the psychology involved, it just means your personal experience has lead you to seeing such things from a different perspective.  I mean when you've helped someone locate her teeth in a dark basement after her husband shoved her down the stairs and they were knocked out then witnessed her making him breakfast the next morning as if nothing happened, speaking about domestic violence in platitudes and slogans seems rather pointless.  And ignorant.   

I think perhaps the lack of understanding of what it is like to be in a abusive relationship you suggest I am showing is in reality being demonstrated by people who are making sweeping generalizations about abuse victims, suggesting they are all helpless, hopeless people whose victim mentality should be reinforced because they are as a group completely unable to do anything to keep themselves safe.  I don't agree with that line of thought - I actually find that to be cruel (and useless and even sometimes dangerous, to boot). I would hazard a guess that Bethenny Frankel feels the same way.

[Jel]

1 minute ago, film noire said:

The same idea was repeated twice; the first time, it was the only exchange in a post with me (no larger post; my comment and then hers, end of post) and the second time reiterates the same idea, delivered  from a first person perspective, not Bethenny's:

"At some point you DO become responsible for your own choices and any damage you experience is at least arguably partially self-inflicted."

And I appreciate the offer, Jel,  but no need - thanks ;)

 "at least arguably partially self-inflicted".  

"At least arguably" ... so where's the argument?  

Well, I'd say it's lurking somewhere in the experience of people who work with victims of domestic violence to get them to safety and counselling and financial assistance and housing and emotional support, who work with them every day to help them see they are not powerless and to help them see the cycle of abuse, and their role in it, and how to end it, who still, despite the help, and even some real progress, return to their abusers.  When they are out and they know what's going to happen when they go back and yet they do, that's "at least arguably partially self-inflicted". 

It does not, of course, excuse the behavior of the abuser in any way, but no one said it did.  And while the view that those poor women are powerless victims seems like it might be helpful, it isnt because they already feel powerless.  The goal is to help them see that they are not.

(And sheesh, are you saying you don't want to read my 20 pages of deep thoughts on DV and the cycle of abuse? Well how do you do! What about if I throw in a 20% off coupon to The Cheesecake Factory? Still no?)

[BBHN]

Quote

What about if I throw in a 20% off coupon to The Cheesecake Factory?

Make it 35% and I'm in.

[Jel]

41 minutes ago, motorcitymom65 said:

This is what I am wondering as well. Could she still press charges, if she gets to a point where she feels strong enough, or just wants to do it?

I realize that being abused is horrible enough all on its own, and that having to then deal with the legal system is extremely traumatic. I get there are a lot of reasons why women in such situations cannot get to the point where they can face their abusers in court. But it sounds like this dude and his family are a nightmare, and at the end of the day, another real shame is that he won't be punished. That he and his powerful family can just get away with treating someone like this with no consequences. And here is the rub for me. I am not blaming her in any way, nor saying she deserved anything that happened to her. I like her so far, and am rooting for her 100%. He is the abuser and she is the victim. But while the legal process is hard to suffer through, she is taking it instead to a reality show. She is talking about it in interviews. She isn't hiding from any of it, and I would assume reliving it on the show (as it would appear in the next episode). 

So please don't anyone hate me or spit shit on your computer, but I can see how someone like Beth - who does not back down and fights for her rights when she is wronged through a complex legal system if necessary, would wonder why someone with such resources and family support has decided to not tell her story in court and potentially put a stop to the behavior, but to instead tell her story on a reality TV show. She could do both. Maybe though this is the best revenge for Tinsley. To get on a show with a fairly loyal following and tell the world slowly what kind of a person this guy is. 

Wow, interesting idea about Bethenny's potential thoughts, MCM.   

Also, aww who could hate the MotorCityMom?!  You are always one of the best.  

[Celia Rubenstein]

5 hours ago, Jel said:

I wish she had pressed charges.  Is it too late to do that now? Anyone know?

I don't know the timeline or what the statute of limitations is.  It may not be too late.   But I doubt Tinsley would want to open that can of worms back up and have her own behavior made an issue.   She seems to have moved on, and like MCM said ... exposing this guy on TV for what he is may be her best revenge at this point.

Hopefully the next woman he kicks the crap out of will put his ass in jail.

[KungFuBunny]

6 hours ago, BBHN said:

I'm kind of thinking I want to watch that show, but I heard it was really, really bad. Is it as bad as people say it is?

There are only 8 episodes - 20 minutes each.

I'd love for Tinsley's sister, Dabney to make an appearance on NY.

On RHNY, Dale has been on her best behavior, on the old reality show she is very controlling.

Out of the cast on High Society - Tinsley was the least crazy, 2 of them I can't even remember their names were absolutely awful

[lunastartron]

7 hours ago, Jel said:

Where did you get that interpretation from? Since you're asking, I'll guess, "What is 'Not Reading the Entire Post' for $500, Alex"?  ;)

Here's what else Celia Rubenstein said, "I hope no one is thinking I am rationalizing or excusing the behavior of men who beat women...  If you hit or kick or abuse someone in any way, that is on you."  

I don't know how she could make her views any more plain.

When you ask, "At what point is this?",  I think that's sophistry -- no one ever said or suggested or implied that a woman is the cause of the violence she suffers.  She didn't cause it. She didn't ask for it.  Abused domestic partners don't "earn their punches".  "Responsibility" (and responsibility in a different context, I might add) and "cause" are not synonyms.  There is no debate here, not taking up for a straw man.  Nope.

 If you think  the use of the word "responsibility" as "... proximate to ascribing culpability to the victim for rectifying abuse in question",  hey, go for it, but you can't use your interpretation of that word to ascribe beliefs to me that are not there.

I have a longer answer about "partial responsibility" and how I think it factors in, but we're already kind of ot here, so please message me if you want to continue the discussion. :)

We're at an impasse. It happens. I may take you up on the longer discussion but I agree that we're kind of getting off-topic here. 

When I read the the assertion, "At some point you DO become responsible for your own choices and any damage you experience is at least arguably partially self-inflicted," and the clause, "Even if you feel their crisis is mainly self-inflicted," I think that, yes, "self-inflicted" establishes a participatory role in causation and that, likewise, "self-inflicted" rather contradicts the prior qualifiers that you quoted. The "crisis" and "damage" in domestic violence ARE the violence - and the psychoemotional ripple effects are inextricable from that violence. 

We can parse etymology and semantics like Raymond Carver going all "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love" - official definitions of "responsibility" do establish causation and I think the word generally implies it. But it appears we aren't going to agree on this count. 

But I do disagree that it's "sophistry" (here, I am using quotes to convey my dubiousness) to ask at what metric damage becomes self-inflicted when an argument is made that ... There is a point at which damage becomes self-inflicted. If words establishing a timeline  actually do not establish a timeline or threshold, then we're basically in a Jabberwocky poem from my pov. I don't think I'm imputing meaning here. 

 

1 hour ago, Jel said:

 "at least arguably partially self-inflicted".  

"At least arguably" ... so where's the argument?  

Well, I'd say it's lurking somewhere in the experience of people who work with victims of domestic violence to get them to safety and counselling and financial assistance and housing and emotional support, who work with them every day to help them see they are not powerless and to help them see the cycle of abuse, and their role in it, and how to end it, who still, despite the help, and even some real progress, return to their abusers.  When they are out and they know what's going to happen when they go back and yet they do, that's "at least arguably partially self-inflicted". 

It does not, of course, excuse the behavior of the abuser in any way, but no one said it did.  And while the view that those poor women are powerless victims seems like it might be helpful, it isnt because they already feel powerless.  The goal is to help them see that they are not.

(And sheesh, are you saying you don't want to read my 20 pages of deep thoughts on DV and the cycle of abuse? Well how do you do! What about if I throw in a 20% off coupon to The Cheesecake Factory? Still no?)

I don't recall either myself or film noire generalizing all victims (which indeed they are) as powerless. I do think there's nothing shameful about being the victim of a crime so I have no problem with the term as such. But then it does connote linguistic nuance itself with the entire "victim" vs "survivor" dichotomy. 

8 minutes ago, KungFuBunny said:

There are only 8 episodes - 20 minutes each.

I'd love for Tinsley's sister, Dabney to make an appearance on NY.

On RHNY, Dale has been on her best behavior, on the old reality show she is very controlling.

Out of the cast on High Society - Tinsley was the least crazy, 2 of them I can't even remember their names were absolutely awful

I'm guessing Jules Kirby and Paul Johnson Calderon.

[BBHN]

Quote

then we're basically in a Jabberwocky poem from my pov

I wonder if the Jubjub bird is thinking "Dang, y'all are still discussing this? Just agree to disagree and move on."

Anyway. Callooh! Callay!

Edited June 27, 2017 by BBHN

[Happy Camper]

3 hours ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

Without violating the privacy of a person very close to me, I will just say that you are quite wrong.  I actually do have some personal experience in abusive relationships. Perhaps it is this experience I have had which is so similar to Bethenny's that makes me think I understand what she was getting at with the "abused" thing she said about Tinsley.

I  do understand your perspective is a result of your personal experience. I also understand your frustration in trying to help your friend.

That may or may not be the reason why Bethenny made that totally inappropriate comment, brushing off Tinsley's abuse situation in a very public manner. 

I highly doubt that you announced to the entire world that your friend was in an "abusive" situation.

Bethenny is a well known person who people listen to. When she brushes off spousal abuse like she did, she is sending out an awful message about victims of abuse. 

How would she like it if Tinsley wrote in her blog "Bethenny claims to have been "stalked" by her ex husband, and that this divorce has been "torture" for her? 

I'll tell you how she'd react.  "NOT WELL, BITCH!"

[Celia Rubenstein]

My original post about all this was an attempt to understand/explain what Bethenny may have been thinking or feeling when she said what she did. I would never attempt to defend Bethenny's incredibly insensitive choice to actually say it, though. There was just no need ... 

I would certainly not do such a thing myself. 

I wonder if this will be brought up on the reunion.  It would surely make for some fireworks, if the way the board reacted to it is any indication!

[Happy Camper]

1 minute ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

I would never attempt to defend Bethenny's incredibly insensitive choice to actually say it, though. There was just no need ... 

I would certainly not do such a thing myself. 

Thank you for clarifying!

[WireWrap]

13 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

My original post about all this was an attempt to understand/explain what Bethenny may have been thinking or feeling when she said what she did. I would never attempt to defend Bethenny's incredibly insensitive choice to actually say it, though. There was just no need ... 

I would certainly not do such a thing myself. 

I wonder if this will be brought up on the reunion.  It would surely make for some fireworks, if the way the board reacted to it is any indication!

I think it boils down to that what Bethenny said, the way she wrote it, no matter how one twists it, looks at it or tries to put it into Bethenny speak, it is still indefensible. I admire that you tried to see it from her eyes but you used empathy when you did it and that is something I believe she lacks.

[Celia Rubenstein]

Bethenny is a classic narcissist (something else I have some unfortunate personal experience with, lol) and she is entirely lacking in empathy, I completely agree.  She sees things only in terms of how they relate to her.  I think that explains her foolish choice to snark on Tinsley's experience.  I'm sure she never for a minute took into account how saying what she said might create an uncomfortable situation for Tinsley.  She probably wouldn't care if it had occurred to her. All that mattered to her was she has a burr under her blanket re: Tins so she went ahead and vented. 

It sure bit her in the ass this time, didn't it? ha But she won't learn anything from it.  Narcissists NEVER CHANGE.

[film noire]

4 hours ago, Jel said:

When they are out and they know what's going to happen when they go back and yet they do, that's "at least arguably partially self-inflicted". 

 

No, it's not. Returning to the abuser is part of the cycle of abuse.  The psychological chains are the hardest ones to break, and every bit as much a part of the abuse as any beating.

Quote

It does not, of course, excuse the behavior of the abuser in any way, but no one said it did.  And while the view that those poor women are powerless victims seems like it might be helpful, it isnt because they already feel powerless.  The goal is to help them see that they are not.

Empowerment is not achieved by telling a woman (or man) living in a cycle of abuse that the abuse they've been experiencing is self inflicted, in any degree. Saying that they participated in the "damage you experience" is going to shame them, not give them wings -- if for no other reason than that you're telling them the same thing the abuser tells them, every time the fist lands. 

And that's it for me on this topic - thanks for the offer of cheesecake :) 

And thanks @lunastartron for saying so much, so well. 

Edited June 27, 2017 by film noire

[Lemons]

8 hours ago, breezy424 said:

Tinsley on why she continued the relationship:

http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/tinsley-mortimer-talks-arrest-abusive-relationship-real-housewives-of-nyc-w476354

BTW, the arrest just happened six months before she started filming RHNY.

A lot of cliches from her in that story. "if it could happen to me it could happen to anyone".   I don't agree with that. There are many women who "that one time he hit me" was the first and last time he hit me. 

She says the public humiliation and the "not pretty" mugshot is what finally broke the cycle of violence. Her gross boyfriend was the one who actually had dumped her and moved on to abuse another woman.  The embarrassment of it being made public that she was being rejected by the man that she was still pursuing is what broke the cycle. And how gross that not only did the boyfriend not get charged with abuse but he was actually able to get her arrested for trespassing (next step would have been a stalking charge).  That had to be super humiliating. 

Tinsley seems like a nice woman but she also seems to be addicted to fame. She set out to be a socialite, she hired a publicist and did it. When times changed she went to Florida and found a guy with a famous family.  Super rich. She started to get a lot of press again. Then the ugly mugshot. She left, came back to NYC and back in the spotlight. Is her story inspiring enough for her to speak to other victims of domestic abuse?  

[WireWrap]

2 hours ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

Bethenny is a classic narcissist (something else I have some unfortunate personal experience with, lol) and she is entirely lacking in empathy, I completely agree.  She sees things only in terms of how they relate to her.  I think that explains her foolish choice to snark on Tinsley's experience.  I'm sure she never for a minute took into account how saying what she said might create an uncomfortable situation for Tinsley.  She probably wouldn't care if it had occurred to her. All that mattered to her was she has a burr under her blanket re: Tins so she went ahead and vented. 

It sure bit her in the ass this time, didn't it? ha But she won't learn anything from it.  Narcissists NEVER CHANGE.

Yes, it did bite her but she still has those that defend her words here and I doubt she cares what any of us think (pro or con) to begin with. Again, I worry about Bryn as she gets older and finds her own voice, as much as Bethenny loves her daughter, she really loves herself far more.

[breezy424]

37 minutes ago, Lemons said:

A lot of cliches from her in that story. "if it could happen to me it could happen to anyone".   I don't agree with that. There are many women who "that one time he hit me" was the first and last time he hit me. 

She says the public humiliation and the "not pretty" mugshot is what finally broke the cycle of violence. Her gross boyfriend was the one who actually had dumped her and moved on to abuse another woman.  The embarrassment of it being made public that she was being rejected by the man that she was still pursuing is what broke the cycle. And how gross that not only did the boyfriend not get charged with abuse but he was actually able to get her arrested for trespassing (next step would have been a stalking charge).  That had to be super humiliating. 

Tinsley seems like a nice woman but she also seems to be addicted to fame. She set out to be a socialite, she hired a publicist and did it. When times changed she went to Florida and found a guy with a famous family.  Super rich. She started to get a lot of press again. Then the ugly mugshot. She left, came back to NYC and back in the spotlight. Is her story inspiring enough for her to speak to other victims of domestic abuse?  

Sometimes cliches are the truth.  I've seen it.  Yes.  There are many women who are of the 'that one time he hit me' is the first and last time.  But, there are many women who aren't.  I think it very easy to sit back and judge. 

[motorcitymom65]

7 hours ago, WireWrap said:

Yes, it did bite her but she still has those that defend her words here and I doubt she cares what any of us think (pro or con) to begin with. Again, I worry about Bryn as she gets older and finds her own voice, as much as Bethenny loves her daughter, she really loves herself far more.

I don't know yet what Beth meant, but if she goes on to throw shades of doubt on Tinsley about her abuse, she won't have a defender in me. And for the record, I wish she would have just stayed out of it. 

One thing that has always interested me was that Tinsley was with Beth on the day that Jason was arrested. The photo was posted on Beth's site (I cannot get it to copy here) and folks were talking about how angry Beth looked in the picture. If you look at the pictures that were posted later after Jason was arrested, Beth is wearing the same clothes and they talk of her going about her business after the arrest. Maybe they were filming, and there were others in the picture, but it just shows Tinsley and Beth and I would have been surprised they wouldn't have gotten other gals in the shot if they were with her. I have no idea at this point what becomes of Tinsley and Beth's relationship, and how she may view what happened to Tinsley. 

I will also be curious to see how opinions change regarding Tinsley and what happened to her should she and Beth become friends. Becoming friends with Beth has a way of making folks give people a second look and question all kinds of things about them that were not questioned before. 

Edited June 27, 2017 by motorcitymom65

[Jel]

8 hours ago, film noire said:

No, it's not. Returning to the abuser is part of the cycle of abuse.  The psychological chains are the hardest ones to break, and every bit as much a part of the abuse as any beating.

Empowerment is not achieved by telling a woman (or man) living in a cycle of abuse that the abuse they've been experiencing is self inflicted, in any degree. Saying that they participated in the "damage you experience" is going to shame them, not give them wings -- if for no other reason than that you're telling them the same thing the abuser tells them, every time the fist lands. 

And that's it for me on this topic - thanks for the offer of cheesecake :) 

And thanks @lunastartron for saying so much, so well. 

Okay, let's end this discussion in agreement then.  I completely agree with you on those points.  

And a clarification ... no one (that I know anyway) says to an abused woman, "In some way, you brought (or will bring) this on yourself"  We do say, if you return, this will most likely continue.  That's reality, not shaming. The empowerment comes from helping her see that, despite what the abuser has told her, and despite how living in that cycle of abuse has made her feel, she does have autonomy and can take control over her life -- it literally has nothing to do with blaming her.  She returns because she's stuck in a cycle of abuse, that's true, but the abuse cycle is an explanation, not a prescription. The goal is to help her break out of it, as soon as possible. 

In that article, Tinsely talks about feeling now like she has her power back, which was a great thing to read and makes me feel happy for her.  Even more reason for cheesecake! 

[motorcitymom65]

20 minutes ago, Jel said:

Okay, let's end this discussion in agreement then.  I completely agree with you on those points.  

And a clarification ... no one (that I know anyway) says to an abused woman, "In some way, you brought (or will bring) this on yourself"  We do say, if you return, this will most likely continue.  That's reality, not shaming. The empowerment comes from helping her see that, despite what the abuser has told her, and despite how living in that cycle of abuse has made her feel, she does have autonomy and can take control over her life -- it literally has nothing to do with blaming her.  She returns because she's stuck in a cycle of abuse, that's true, but the abuse cycle is an explanation, not a prescription. The goal is to help her break out of it, as soon as possible. 

In that article, Tinsely talks about feeling now like she has her power back, which was a great thing to read and makes me feel happy for her.  Even more reason for cheesecake! 

Very well said. 

My guess is that the people who were the most frustrated by Tinsley and her situation were the folks that were closest to her. Some folks here are being labeled as ignorant about domestic abuse and it's root causes, but I would imagine the things being debated here pale in comparison to the talk that was happening among her own flock. I would image she was the topic of conversation over holiday dinners and expensive wine. Why does she keep going back? Why is she allowing this to happen to her? And the word "allow" is just a word. I know it's not all that. It's not that simple. It is very complex and deep, and not her fault. But believe me when I say that this is what people involved in the situation would have been saying. Others have shared their own stories of frustration, confusion and fear for victims in their own lives. It is unfair to label someone who wishes Tinsley would have made other decisions as not understanding, or as a person who has never had experience with such situations. The thing that sucks the most is that most of us have been involved with a loved one who is in such a cycle of abuse. Most of us have seen it all up close. And you know what, the people that are the closest to the victims and love them the most are usually the ones who are the most confused by what we see happening, of course depending on the situation, and the degree of the abuse. We don't blame them - we blame the asshole who is inflicting the abuse on them. But it is too simplistic to say that everyone that wants someone to walk away is not knowledgable about the cycle of abuse or ignorant to the statistics and the facts. Or ignorant about the fact that it is just not that easy. 

Edited June 27, 2017 by motorcitymom65

[lunastartron]

1 hour ago, motorcitymom65 said:

 

One thing that has always interested me was that Tinsley was with Beth on the day that Jason was arrested. The photo was posted on Beth's site (I cannot get it to copy here) and folks were talking about how angry Beth looked in the picture. If you look at the pictures that were posted later after Jason was arrested, Beth is wearing the same clothes and they talk of her going about her business after the arrest. Maybe they were filming, and there were others in the picture, but it just shows Tinsley and Beth and I would have been surprised they wouldn't have gotten other gals in the shot if they were with her. I have no idea at this point what becomes of Tinsley and Beth's relationship, and how she may view what happened to Tinsley. 

I think it was this photo? It was published on the 27 Jan.  Editing: because there are conflicting reports and NYPD misstatements about dates of recital and arrest. 

Did anyone watch WWHL about a month ago on which Bethenny apparently said 

"F--k that bitch," Frankel said of "Real Housewives of New York" co-star Mortimer on "Watch What Happens Live" on Wednesday. 

"Here's what it is: This is my real life, this is a reality show, and I meet someone at a party and I say 'Hi, nice to meet you.' I don't go down on them."

"Everybody has this preconceived notion that they come on a show that's been on for 10 years, they're gonna come in and, 'Oooh, I'm gonna make Bethenny hate me or like me or I'm gonna fight with her,'" she continued. "It's like, 'Hey, hi, how are you?' That's it. Basic. Nothing. We don't know each other."

 

http://toofab.com/2017/05/25/bethenny-frankel-rips-rhony-tinsley-mortimer-andy-cohen-wwhl-watch-what-happens-real-housewives-phaedra-parks/

This is kind of notable from Miami during Tinsley's Queen Bee and Bethenny's self-described "broke" days prior to the premiere of the show. 

Edited June 27, 2017 by lunastartron

[motorcitymom65]

46 minutes ago, lunastartron said:

I think it was this photo? It was published on the 27 Jan.  Editing: because there are conflicting reports and NYPD misstatements about dates of recital and arrest.

 

http://toofab.com/2017/05/25/bethenny-frankel-rips-rhony-tinsley-mortimer-andy-cohen-wwhl-watch-what-happens-real-housewives-phaedra-parks/

 

Thanks for posting. Yep, that is the picture. And from the Daily news below, they have pics of Beth a few hours after the arrest. Looks like she is wearing the same clothes. 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4177162/Bethenny-Frankel-s-ex-Jason-Hoppy-arrested-stalking.html

[Ki-in]

OMG that face!!!!  Terrifying!!! I wonder if she makes that face for Brynn.

[zoeysmom]

1 hour ago, lunastartron said:

I think it was this photo? It was published on the 27 Jan.  Editing: because there are conflicting reports and NYPD misstatements about dates of recital and arrest. 

Did anyone watch WWHL about a month ago on which Bethenny apparently said 

"F--k that bitch," Frankel said of "Real Housewives of New York" co-star Mortimer on "Watch What Happens Live" on Wednesday. 

"Here's what it is: This is my real life, this is a reality show, and I meet someone at a party and I say 'Hi, nice to meet you.' I don't go down on them."

"Everybody has this preconceived notion that they come on a show that's been on for 10 years, they're gonna come in and, 'Oooh, I'm gonna make Bethenny hate me or like me or I'm gonna fight with her,'" she continued. "It's like, 'Hey, hi, how are you?' That's it. Basic. Nothing. We don't know each other."

 

http://toofab.com/2017/05/25/bethenny-frankel-rips-rhony-tinsley-mortimer-andy-cohen-wwhl-watch-what-happens-real-housewives-phaedra-parks/

This is kind of notable from Miami during Tinsley's Queen Bee and Bethenny's self-described "broke" days prior to the premiere of the show. 

I hope this helps-a police department spokesperson claims the incident happened on January 27th.  http://people.com/celebrity/bethenny-frankel-ex-husband-jason-hoppy-arrested-charged-alleged-stalking-harassment/

IIRC there was a charity event involving kilts that was filmed for the show the night of January 27th and Bethenny did not attend.

I have a problem with this idea Bethenny has some sort of duty to be rude to new cast mates.  They come on the show and deserve more than a hello and Skinnygirl gift basket.  I have a feeling Bethenny is having Kelly like PTSD and Tinsley may not recall exactly when she met Bethenny.  A high crime in Bethenny's mind.

12 minutes ago, Ki-in said:

OMG that face!!!!  Terrifying!!! I wonder if she makes that face for Brynn.

Looks like the jaw bulges are coming back.  The scowl. 

Edited June 27, 2017 by zoeysmom

[motorcitymom65]

55 minutes ago, zoeysmom said:

I hope this helps-a police department spokesperson claims the incident happened on January 27th.  http://people.com/celebrity/bethenny-frankel-ex-husband-jason-hoppy-arrested-charged-alleged-stalking-harassment/

IIRC there was a charity event involving kilts that was filmed for the show the night of January 27th and Bethenny did not attend.

I have a problem with this idea Bethenny has some sort of duty to be rude to new cast mates.  They come on the show and deserve more than a hello and Skinnygirl gift basket.  I have a feeling Bethenny is having Kelly like PTSD and Tinsley may not recall exactly when she met Bethenny.  A high crime in Bethenny's mind.

Looks like the jaw bulges are coming back.  The scowl. 

See, what to believe? We know when the arrest happened. The question is when did the altercation take place?  The US article folks are quoting below like the Bible (and the only one that mentions a recital) says the incident happened 10 days earlier. Huh. 

It does make things more interesting - IMO. The original article above that came out right after the arrest just mentions Beth being with a "friend", and the pic of Beth and Tinsley was taken that day. And Beth looks extremely upset. Which is what led some to speculate originally that Tinsley was the one actually with Beth when Jason went off. I guess we will know today. 

http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/why-bethenny-frankel-had-her-ex-husband-jason-hoppy-arrested-w465483

Edited June 27, 2017 by motorcitymom65

[BBHN]

Quote

"F--k that bitch," Frankel said of "Real Housewives of New York" co-star Mortimer on "Watch What Happens Live" on Wednesday. 

"Here's what it is: This is my real life, this is a reality show, and I meet someone at a party and I say 'Hi, nice to meet you.' I don't go down on them."

"Everybody has this preconceived notion that they come on a show that's been on for 10 years, they're gonna come in and, 'Oooh, I'm gonna make Bethenny hate me or like me or I'm gonna fight with her,'" she continued. "It's like, 'Hey, hi, how are you?' That's it. Basic. Nothing. We don't know each other."

Sounds like Bethenny was referring to that specific episode where we all debated why she just said hi to Tinsley and nothing else.

Quote

I wonder if she makes that face for Brynn.

I'm guessing she doesn't.

Quote

 I have a feeling Bethenny is having Kelly like PTSD and Tinsley may not recall exactly when she met Bethenny.  A high crime in Bethenny's mind.

Neither of them have mentioned forgetting meeting the other, so not sure if it is the same situation. Also, with regards to Kelly and Bethenny, it wasn't just one forgotten meeting, but almost 10 times. Slight difference.

Quote

They come on the show and deserve more than a hello and Skinnygirl gift basket.

Why, exactly?

[jaync]

Quote

OMG that face!!!!  Terrifying!!! I wonder if she makes that face for Brynn.

It reminds me of this...

...except scarier.

When one is full of that much nastiness, it never can be contained to just the inside.

[zoeysmom]

16 minutes ago, BBHN said:

Sounds like Bethenny was referring to that specific episode where we all debated why she just said hi to Tinsley and nothing else.

I'm guessing she doesn't.

Neither of them have mentioned forgetting meeting the other, so not sure if it is the same situation. Also, with regards to Kelly and Bethenny, it wasn't just one forgotten meeting, but almost 10 times. Slight difference.

Why, exactly?

I will restate, Bethenny doesn't like to be minimalized and Kelly did do that to her.  I just always saw it as Kelly probably could not figure out who Bethenny was or her purpose at some of the events.  As I said, I truly believe Kelly never watched the show before going on.  I do think Kelly's intro to the show was through Luann who she knew from the Hamptons where Kelly had a column in the local bird cage liner.  Betehnny also went off on a chiropractor who didn't remember meeting her twice.  If you don't leave an impression on someone, is that really on them?  Kelly was in the fashion world and at the time Bethenny was doing "Bethenny Bakes", who according to Bethenny on her exit interview from the Martha Stewart Celebrity Apprentice, not winning wasn't all that bad because she had a major brand in "Bethenny Bakes".  There is also the five minute drive through wave of Kelly's at events.  Luann at a Reunion, told Kelly that was not correct.  

Sometimes people  overstate their importance or even presence at an event.  Kelly was pretty use to be photographed with her trademark smile and I could see where she would not pay attention to Bethenny or even a Ramona or Jill.  I remember the infamous Ginny Hilfiger show at Kelly's where Bethenny accused Kelly of flirting with her boyfriend, who was a photographer.  Kelly said she though the guy was there to photograph the party.  If she noticed Bethenny at all she might have thought her an assistant to the guy or just some random person GInny invited.  Not saying it is correct just saying I can see where Kelly might not register the events.

I also question ten times they were "Introduced".  Maybe at the same event ten times.  I am not questioning your statement but Bethenny's. 

[BBHN]

Quote

I will restate, Bethenny doesn't like to be minimalized and Kelly did do that to her.  I just always saw it as Kelly probably could not figure out who Bethenny was or her purpose at some of the events. 

Well, who would enjoy being minimalized (?) by anyone after multiple meetings? I doubt it was just Bethenny who would react that way.

Quote

If you don't leave an impression on someone, is that really on them?

I can understand one or two times, but many many times? It seems less about Kelly not remembering her and more about Kelly not wanting to acknowledge her because Kelly was "up there" and Bethenny was "down there", and I really don't think Kelly was referring to their difference in height.

Quote

I also question ten times they were "Introduced".  Maybe at the same event ten times.  I am not questioning your statement but Bethenny's. 

I have no reason to question that.

Edited June 27, 2017 by BBHN

[zoeysmom]

7 hours ago, BBHN said:

sWell, who would enjoy being minimalized (?) by anyone after multiple meetings? I doubt it was just Bethenny who would react that way.

I can understand one or two times, but many many times? It seems less about Kelly not remembering her and more about Kelly not wanting to acknowledge her because Kelly was "up there" and Bethenny was "down there", and I really don't think Kelly was referring to their difference in height.

I have no reason to question that.

I would certainly not give someone the satisfaction of knowing I was disturbed by their diss.  SO when Bethenny had the chance to be in a small gathering with Kelly she repeatedly insulted her. 

I am one of the few who realized what Kelly meant by the up here down here comment.  Kelly was saying she wasn't going to stoop to Bethenny's level intentionally publically insulting people. Although, because I was pulling for Bethenny at the time I could see where she could run with Kelly's comment.  The irony was Bethenny's good friend Jill didn't give Bethenny a pass. Kelly is a snob and the irony is now Bethenny is acting far worse than Kelly in putting on the snob treatment.

Her comments on WWHL towards Kinsley were awful, and yes, Bethenny when you are going to be filming with someone and taking out of town trips and having them to your home, it doesn't hurt to be friendly.  Her idea that everyone who comes on has a plan for where they will land with Bethenny says a lot about Bethenny's state of mind and past motives.  She made fun of Alex and Simon and Bethenny was essentially doing the same thing trying to get her foot in the door.  Getting in the door as a chef with celebrity clients may not be the way to go if you want to be on the same level as the people you are desperately trying to get in with.  See John, Dorinda's man.  Dry cleaner to the stars. 

Edited June 28, 2017 by zoeysmom

[BBHN]

Quote

I would certainly not give someone the satisfaction of knowing I was disturbed by their diss.  SO when Bethenny had the chance to be in a small gathering with Kelly she repeatedly insulted her. 

She didn't repeatedly insult her.

Quote

I am one of the few who realized what Kelly meant by the up here down here comment.  Kelly was saying she wasn't going to stoop to Bethenny's level intentionally publically insulting people

I really don't think that is what Kelly meant. Kelly did think she was above Bethenny, and wanted to let her know.

Quote

Her comments on WWHL towards Kinsley were awful, and yes, Bethenny when you are going to be filming with someone and taking out of town trips and having them to your home, it doesn't hurt to be friendly.

She never said she wasn't friendly, and she wasn't unfriendly. She just basically said she needed time to really get to know the person first, and not automatically be BFFs.

Quote

Her idea that everyone who comes on has a plan for where they will land with Bethenny says a lot about Bethenny's state of mind and past motives.

She was talking about how it related to her, not the HWs as a whole. Why would she address and speak for the other HWs and how they feel about new people?

Quote

She made fun of Alex and Simon

Didn't they all make fun of Alex and Simon, and Bethenny did it the least, in fact?

[motorcitymom65]

21 minutes ago, zoeysmom said:

I would certainly not give someone the satisfaction of knowing I was disturbed by their diss.  SO when Bethenny had the chance to be in a small gathering with Kelly she repeatedly insulted her. 

I am one of the few who realized what Kelly meant by the up here down here comment.  Kelly was saying she wasn't going to stoop to Bethenny's level intentionally publically insulting people. Although, because I was pulling for Bethenny at the time I could see where she could run with Kelly's comment.  The irony was Bethenny's good friend Jill didn't give Bethenny a pass. Kelly is a snob and the irony is now Bethenny is acting far worse than Kelly in putting on the snob treatment.

Her comments on WWHL towards Kinsley were awful, and yes, Bethenny when you are going to be filming with someone and taking out of town trips and having them to your home, it doesn't hurt to be friendly.  Her idea that everyone who comes on has a plan for where they will land with Bethenny says a lot about Bethenny's state of mind and past motives.  She made fun of Alex and Simon and Bethenny was essentially doing the same thing trying to get her foot in the door.  Getting in the door a chef with celebrity clients may not be the way to go if you want to be on the same level as the people you are desperately trying to get in with.  See John, Dorinda's man.  Dry cleaner to the stars. 

Beth was commenting on one particular segment - when Tinsley said that she thought Beth wasn't nice/warm/open to her upon their first meeting. Beth didn't have anything bad to say about Tinsley, but Tinsley had something bad to say about Beth. Beth is allowed to give her opinion of what she thinks about this. Just as Tinsley is welcome to give her opinion about Beth. I've no idea what Kelly - who was totally and completely bat-shit fucking crazy like I have never ever seen in my life  - has to do with any of it. 

[jaync]

Quote

 

"F--k that bitch," Frankel said of "Real Housewives of New York" co-star Mortimer on "Watch What Happens Live" on Wednesday. 

"Here's what it is: This is my real life, this is a reality show, and I meet someone at a party and I say 'Hi, nice to meet you.' I don't go down on them."

"Everybody has this preconceived notion that they come on a show that's been on for 10 years, they're gonna come in and, 'Oooh, I'm gonna make Bethenny hate me or like me or I'm gonna fight with her,'" she continued. "It's like, 'Hey, hi, how are you?' That's it. Basic. Nothing. We don't know each other."

 

It's truly impossible for her to not be a bitch, isn't it?

[BBHN]

Quote

Beth was commenting on one particular segment - when Tinsley said that she thought Beth wasn't nice/warm/open to her upon their first meeting. Beth didn't have anything bad to say about Tinsley, but Tinsley had something bad to say about Beth. Beth is allowed to give her opinion of what she thinks about this. Just as Tinsley is welcome to give her opinion about Beth.

Exactly.

Quote

I've no idea what Kelly - who was totally and completely bat-shit fucking crazy like I have never ever seen in my life  - has to do with any of it. 

Good question...

[WireWrap]

5 hours ago, motorcitymom65 said:

I don't know yet what Beth meant, but if she goes on to throw shades of doubt on Tinsley about her abuse, she won't have a defender in me. And for the record, I wish she would have just stayed out of it. 

One thing that has always interested me was that Tinsley was with Beth on the day that Jason was arrested. The photo was posted on Beth's site (I cannot get it to copy here) and folks were talking about how angry Beth looked in the picture. If you look at the pictures that were posted later after Jason was arrested, Beth is wearing the same clothes and they talk of her going about her business after the arrest. Maybe they were filming, and there were others in the picture, but it just shows Tinsley and Beth and I would have been surprised they wouldn't have gotten other gals in the shot if they were with her. I have no idea at this point what becomes of Tinsley and Beth's relationship, and how she may view what happened to Tinsley. 

I will also be curious to see how opinions change regarding Tinsley and what happened to her should she and Beth become friends. Becoming friends with Beth has a way of making folks give people a second look and question all kinds of things about them that were not questioned before. 

I don't mind if Bethenny/Tinsley become friends, Dorinda and Bethenny get along and I don't hold that against Dorinda. Heck, they all get along with each other at times. It isn't that Carole/Bethenny are friends, it is that Carole parrots Bethenny when she is with her after expressing a different opinion when Bethenny is not around.

3 hours ago, motorcitymom65 said:

Thanks for posting. Yep, that is the picture. And from the Daily news below, they have pics of Beth a few hours after the arrest. Looks like she is wearing the same clothes. 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4177162/Bethenny-Frankel-s-ex-Jason-Hoppy-arrested-stalking.html

The article goes on the say that Bethenny was all smiles later that day. Since Bryn isn't allow to be filmed, I doubt that Tinsley was with Bethenny when it happened. Also, wasn't there 10 days or so between the fight at the school and when Bethenny filed charges against Jason? Maybe they are both scowling at Ramona! LOL

[KungFuBunny]

What surprises me is there were no arrests prior of either party. The laws have changed here in NY some time ago. If the police are called to a Domestic Abuse scene, the injured party does not have to press charges, the State can do it. They normally haul off both parties to the police station and sort everything out there.

Did you listen to her 911 call the day of her arrest? She was told to leave the premises, she was told to go to the police station and someone could be sent to retrieve her property. She was told she would be arrested if she stayed. She was yelling at them because her boyfriend was in his house with another woman. Something else was at play during their relationship besides alcohol. Tinsley talks about her signature curl and look - yet she showed up at her "boyfriend's house" not together at all for a purse and credit card she left there?

On RHNY, Tinsley has been very careful in what she says about the ex. I don't know if that had to do with the trespass case that was dismissed on December 30, 2016 - she doesn't say much, doesn't get crazy drunk and has not really acted out. There's a big part of me that thinks she wants the ex back. She really needs to some intense therapy.

Edited June 27, 2017 by KungFuBunny

[film noire]

3 hours ago, Ki-in said:

OMG that face!!!!  Terrifying!!! 

Resting B Face ; )

[jaync]

Quote

Resting B Face ; )

Resting, asleep, comatose...

[KungFuBunny]

[motorcitymom65]

11 minutes ago, KungFuBunny said:

Good lord. The furnishings in that house. I am sure it is rich people stuff and I probably have no taste. But just no. 

[BBHN]

Well, to be fair, that's what I'd expect to see in the well-to-do home of people in that part of Virginia...

Edited June 27, 2017 by BBHN