“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[gonzosgirrl]

The initials were added to the table as their legacy, for people to know they were there. Castiel is a freaking angel and Jack is God ffs. Adding them is redundant and an insult, no matter how they are identified.  

[FlickChick]

15 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The initials were added to the table as their legacy, for people to know they were there. Castiel is a freaking angel and Jack is God ffs. Adding them is redundant and an insult, no matter how they are identified.  

My guess is that Jensen agrees with you; just toning it down so the masses don't retaliate! How sad and aggravating this season has been for me.

[Katy M]

41 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

 If any other initial should have been added it was John's. It was because of John that the brothers set out on their journey. If they hadn't butchered Mary I wouldn't have minded her name as long as they were adding them.

 

 

John and Mary would be fine because they're literally family and they've been there since the very beginning, the teaser of the very first episode.  I suppose you could make an argument for Cas, not one I'd like but objectively I would say it could possibly be reasonable.  Jack is ridiculous.  Jack killed Mary.  Dean goes back and forth between hating Jack.  He's a very late addition to the cast.  If they absolutely HAD to add a non-Winchester, I would vote for Bobby even though original recipe was never actually in the bunker.  At least he's been around since the end of last season and has a more consistent relationship with S&D than Jack does.  And his BS initials also work well as a coda to that episode.  

[FlickChick]

29 minutes ago, Katy M said:

And his BS initials also work well as a coda to that episode.  

LOL! And so very, very, very true!!! 😆🤮

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

And, JK might have been appropriate for the end of that episode.  Cas could have used CA.  Castiel the Angel.

They didn't think.

[Castiels Cat]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Not really. He said that it happened and will probably happen some more. He didn't seem upset about it, just said that the symbolism of the initials meant something to him. It's best to listen for yourself.

I tried... I missed it. It wasn't around 7:09. I haven't listened to it all yet.

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

I tried... I missed it. It wasn't around 7:09. I haven't listened to it all yet.

It's part of the response to the question about the initials, which begins at 7:09.

[Castiels Cat]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

It's part of the response to the question about the initials, which begins at 7:09.

I will have to try again. I started at 7:00. I missed it.

[gonzosgirrl]

19 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

I will have to try again. I started at 7:00. I missed it.

9:23

[AwesomO4000]

On 11/6/2020 at 12:48 AM, 7kstar said:

Awesome, we don't always agree and I do respect your love for Sam.  But this season has been worst for both characters in my book.  I doubt Dabb can do anything that is strong unless it happens by accident.  But everything I've seen so far; has just proved Jensen correct that this will not be a strong ending for Supernatural.  But since I expect lame...well I do have more tolerance than if I was sooooo excited for the ending.

I should have said earlier that I agree with this for the most part, because I haven't seen Dabb trying to make Sam the hero that others seem to see. I only see character damage. For me, Dabb trying to make Sam something he isn't and then seemingly making Sam's failings as a result obvious isn't showing any love for the character. Dabb doesn't seem to even understand who Sam is, never mind celebrate him. Even the last episode was just another example of Dabb making Sam do something stupid again (that Sam had previously learned not to do anymore) and then have him have to admit how stupid it was. It was just the last in a long line of that happening way back to the end of season 12.

Because of Dabb, instead of the self realization Sam had in season 7 (and then thanks to Caver, again in season 10), Sam is going to end the series still the petulant little brother who screws up so that Dean has to help bail him out of the hole he dug himself into. Sam's the plot device to get the situation into crisis mode to up the drama and have other characters fix it.

Believe me, I have no praise here for Dabb. Just in my book, he's only taking cues from his predecessor - who used Sam similarly as a plot device and to make his own characters shine in comparison - except that there are no other writers (like Robbie Thompson and Ben Edlund) left to soften the blows and actually write Sam decently. (Which kind of sucks, because Carver used to be one of those writers until he decided awful Amelia and "better brother" Benny and Gadreel were more interesting and therefor worth writing Sam badly for. And Carver also let Daniel Loflin out on his own which was a terrible idea that I'm glad didn't last long. Worst character destruction ever. Dabb and Loflin should never have been separated. They weren't the best writers together, but at least they seemed to curb each others' worst tendencies. And giving Dabb showrunner status just made it worse. I don't know what role Singer played, but he sure didn't help.)

For me now Supernatural will be seasons 1 through 7,*** "Everybody Hates Hitler" and "The Great Escapist", "First Born," "Metafiction" and some parts of 9.21-9.23, seasons 10 - 11 minus the last scene.  "Regarding Dean" and maybe "The Thing" can be like like codas or like those after series special movies, but it will pretty much end with season 11 for me story-wise.

***and you should consider watching all of season 6 and 7 eventually, 7kstar, if you haven't already, because there are some amazing episodes in there that I think don't get enough credit, and most of all, some of them were actually fun and had humor in them (some of Ben Edlund's best stuff was in season 6 and 7. He writes some of the best amusing Sam and Bobby. Amusing Dean, too, but many of the writers can do that.) Hell, even Dabb and Loflin wrote some of their most amusing stuff during these seasons. "Oh, Okie dokey. Wood chipper... That... that pretty much trumps... everything." Truer words... hee. Man, I love me some season 6 and 7 humor. And I miss Rufus.

[gonzosgirrl]

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Because of Dabb, instead of the self realization Sam had in season 7 (and then thanks to Caver, again in season 10), Sam is going to end the series still the petulant little brother who screws up so that Dean has to help bail him out of the hole he dug himself into. Sam's the plot device to get the situation into crisis mode to up the drama and have other characters fix it.

Dabb is the one who had Sam be Jack's cheerleader all along, while Dean wanted to take him out. And if he had succeeded, there would have been no one to defeat Chuck, not even Amara, or his arch-angel sons. I'm 99% sure that this will be pointed out to Dean before it's over, but even if it isn't, Sam was still the one who was 'right' about Jack being the good little nougat baby he was.

Edited November 16, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[Katy M]

37 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dabb is the one who had Sam be Jack's cheerleader all along, while Dean wanted to take him out. And if he had succeeded, there would have been no one to defeat Chuck, not even Amara, or his arch-angel sons. I'm 99% sure that this will be pointed out to Dean before it's over, but even if it isn't, Sam was still the one who was 'right' about Jack being the good little nougat baby he was.

Hadn't really thought of it that way, but if true, that's pretty much the first time Sam's been right about anything.

ETA: to clarify, I mean big stuff. Of course he's sometimes right on MOTW hunts and stuff like that.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Katy M

[ILoveReading]

9 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dabb is the one who had Sam be Jack's cheerleader all along, while Dean wanted to take him out. And if he had succeeded, there would have been no one to defeat Chuck, not even Amara, or his arch-angel sons. I'm 99% sure that this will be pointed out to Dean before it's over, but even if it isn't, Sam was still the one who was 'right' about Jack being the good little nougat baby he was.

If Dean had killed Jack, God would have stayed out of it,.  Technically, God only showed up because Jack lost his soul and God considered him a threat for...reasons.   When Dean refused to kill Jack, and then Sam shot God for...reasons its made God mad enough to start elminating words. 

So eliminating Jack right off the bat would have saved billions, not to mention Mary.

[Katy M]

29 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

If Dean had killed Jack, God would have stayed out of it,.  Technically, God only showed up because Jack lost his soul and God considered him a threat for...reasons. 

Not to defend anything about this stupid plotline, but I think Chuck did have reason to see Jack as a threat.  He may not have done anything beyond killing a couple of people and breaking out of a box, and causing chaos by eliminating lies (don't get me started on that), but he had the power to do a lot more and was easily manipulated and it was only a matter of time.  

 

31 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

When Dean refused to kill Jack, and then Sam shot God for...reasons

Yep that was stupid beyond words.

32 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

reasons its made God mad enough to start elminating words. 

I know you meant worlds, but when I first read this I was like, what, 1984?  Newspeak?  Chuck had more of a plan than I realized.

[NougatJack]

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

If Dean had killed Jack, God would have stayed out of it,.  Technically, God only showed up because Jack lost his soul and God considered him a threat for...reasons.   When Dean refused to kill Jack, and then Sam shot God for...reasons its made God mad enough to start elminating words. 

So eliminating Jack right off the bat would have saved billions, not to mention Mary.

But then they would never leave the hamster wheel. 

Sure, Mary probably would be on earth instead of heaven now. But sooner or later the Winchester family will meet in heaven again. Mary and John are already there, and Sam and Dean will follow someday.

And without Chuck, whole humanity is free. I doubt that Mary would trade freedom for humanity for some more years on earth instead of being in heaven with John. I know Mary was a bitch, but she wasn´t that evil.

[Aeryn13]

43 minutes ago, NougatJack said:

But then they would never leave the hamster wheel. 

Sure, Mary probably would be on earth instead of heaven now. But sooner or later the Winchester family will meet in heaven again. Mary and John are already there, and Sam and Dean will follow someday.

And without Chuck, whole humanity is free. I doubt that Mary would trade freedom for humanity for some more years on earth instead of being in heaven with John. I know Mary was a bitch, but she wasn´t that evil.

Chuck was neither completely evil nor even really that hands on before Dabb retconned him like that. He was missing and not involved for thousands of years. Jack is not breaking any new ground her by claiming he will be hands off.

[ILoveReading]

7 hours ago, Katy M said:

but I think Chuck did have reason to see Jack as a threat. 

I don't deny this, but the problem is that Jack was always a threat.  Right from the day he was born.  Why did Chuck only want him to even exist in the first place if we are supposed to believe he wrote everything.  He was not only powerful but he could be bribed with a bar of Nougat.  

It makes me wonder if Jack was evil all along.  There were so many 'accidents" and his birth set off a chain of events that lead to the destruction of billions of people. 

Now he's so powerful he can't be stopped.  Sam and Dean better hope no bigger baddie comes along with a box of snickers. 

1 hour ago, NougatJack said:

But then they would never leave the hamster wheel. 

There was no rhyme or reason to what was and wasn't the hamster wheel.  Are we supposed to really believe that they were on it from Dean showing up at Sam's to him not shooting Sam 15 years later.  When Dean shows up on the field at Swan Song he's told he's not part of the story.  We've seen evidence that Dean is the influence on Cas, and that without him, Cas becomes a literal nazi.  Why would God constantly bring back Cas into the story if he couldnt' control him.

Why would God even write Jack into existence in the first place?  Someone who could destroy him?  Dean was supposed to kill Sam back in s2.  He didn't.  Dean never played his part in s5.  He rejected Michael. There are times it makes no sense for God to write the story the way he was.    That's becasue this season was a retconned mess. 

1 hour ago, NougatJack said:

And without Chuck, whole humanity is free.

  Humanity was free for centuries because God himself said he was hands off, but because of Jack billions are dead on other worlds.   

[NougatJack]

I think Sam and Dean won´t be able to open rifts to other AU worlds, and therefore won´t know if any AU worlds will be restored, so the audience won´t know neither.

But I hope that we will see what becomes of heaven. If the writers don´t want Castiel to get to earth again because the show began with the two brothers and should end with the two brothers, than it would be great if Jack transfers him (Cas) to heaven. There he could work on restoring heaven. 

If Jack leaves Cas in the empty, it would be another plot hole. Jack clearly changed since he became god, though he won´t forget his dad.  

[AwesomO4000]

17 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm 99% sure that this will be pointed out to Dean before it's over, but even if it isn't, Sam was still the one who was 'right' about Jack being the good little nougat baby he was.

But not before Sam was wrong first and had to admit how wrong he was about Jack when Jack went bad and killed Mary. And don't worry, even if Sam is supposedly "right" now concerning Jack, Dabb made sure to put in hints that Sam being right had less to do with Sam and more to do with Dean (see below). And then to make sure Sam would still end up wrong, Dabb had Sam argue against the plan which lead to Chuck zapping everyone out of existence ...and then had Sam have to admit how wrong he had been to do that... which Dabb basically has Sam do at the end of almost every damn season: admit he screwed up and then Dean and everyone else has to help him fix it. Dabb just can't help himself, and so we got Sam shooting Chuck and pissing him off at the end of last season to start up the drama/conflict for this one. Sam is a plot device and so is made to do stupid things for no reason that makes sense character-wise - like joining the organization that tortured him (cause that makes so much sense) - just so that there can be drama and Sam can learn a very special lesson and admit how wrong he was. Look at the end of almost every Dabb season and you'll see Sam admitting how wrong he was about something. In season 12 it was joining the BMoL. In 13 it was how he ended up getting killed and then manipulated by Lucifer. Last season it was Jack going bad and Nick going bad (a stellar season for Sam that was, oh and he got killed... again, humiliatingly, for that stupid mistake). It's usually the same damn pattern. Sam means well, but bless his heart... (a pattern established by Carver after he was done making Sam the less better brother,)

And in terms of Jack doing good now, Dabb made sure to put in anvils hints that the reason that Jack probably turned out good was mainly because of Dean, since it was established in the previous episode that Dean is the one who influences everyone around him to be better. Castiel's farewell speech to Dean was not subtle. It pretty much established that Dean is considered by the show to be the driving force behind  people and beings wanting to do and be better.  And this was started early on with Jack when Jack would emulate Dean, not Sam. Continued with Jack worrying about disappointing Dean. And Dabb started that theme in general way back at the end of season 11 with Amara. It's no coincidence for me that Castiel's farewell speech came last week, a week before Jack decides to do the right thing and not be influenced by Lucifer. Sure others may say things about Dean, but as Castiel says, they don't know any better. Those who know Dean, know the real truth. I can't see all of that being contradicted in the final episode. In my opinion, Dabb had been building up to that for a long time. He just has a stupid / clumsy way of getting there (as I described in my previous post in this thread.)

[PAForrest]

9 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't deny this, but the problem is that Jack was always a threat.  Right from the day he was born.  Why did Chuck only want him to even exist in the first place if we are supposed to believe he wrote everything.  He was not only powerful but he could be bribed with a bar of Nougat.  

It makes me wonder if Jack was evil all along.  There were so many 'accidents" and his birth set off a chain of events that lead to the destruction of billions of people. 

Now he's so powerful he can't be stopped.  Sam and Dean better hope no bigger baddie comes along with a box of snickers. 

There was no rhyme or reason to what was and wasn't the hamster wheel.  Are we supposed to really believe that they were on it from Dean showing up at Sam's to him not shooting Sam 15 years later.  When Dean shows up on the field at Swan Song he's told he's not part of the story.  We've seen evidence that Dean is the influence on Cas, and that without him, Cas becomes a literal nazi.  Why would God constantly bring back Cas into the story if he couldnt' control him.

Why would God even write Jack into existence in the first place?  Someone who could destroy him?  Dean was supposed to kill Sam back in s2.  He didn't.  Dean never played his part in s5.  He rejected Michael. There are times it makes no sense for God to write the story the way he was.    That's becasue this season was a retconned mess. 

  Humanity was free for centuries because God himself said he was hands off, but because of Jack billions are dead on other worlds.   

I don't remember now who said it in one of the other threads, but the poster nailed it. Drabb took Kripke's show and used it as the foundation for his own spin-off for the glory of his Mary Sues. That's what we've been forced to watch the last four years, with he and his producers outright telling us over and over again that the Winchesters were worthless without Chuck, did nothing on their own, only mattered because Chuck mattered at the time. All this denigration of the Js' 15-year-long devotion to the show culminated with Drabb's own narcissistic insert scorching the earth of everything that was Kripke's and crowning himself Queen Gack of the Universe instead. It's actually really embarrassing.

I sincerely do want a damn fix-it, because this is crap. I know we probably will never get one, but that's what I'm taking away from the end of the show - a desire for a do-over.

I walked away from this last episode absolutely loathing the character of Jack/Gack - where before I was just indifferent because he was a boring chore. More than that, though, it made me resent the actor too. Alex outright lied last year when he claimed that his character and everyone else was just there to support the Winchesters - which I know he said on the heels of seeing online complaints that the show had turned into Jacknatural, 'cuz it had.

But as we've seen this year, that claim about supporting the Winchesters wasn't even a little bit true. He knew perfectly well then that he was Drabb's insert and that the only story being pushed forward was his, and that Jack was going to be pathetically held up as the lone hero of the universe Drabb stole for himself and his ego.

Edited November 17, 2020 by PAForrest

[Aeryn13]

36 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But not before Sam was wrong first and had to admit how wrong he was about Jack when Jack went bad and killed Mary. And don't worry, even if Sam is supposedly "right" now concerning Jack, Dabb made sure to put in hints that Sam being right had less to do with Sam and more to do with Dean (see below). And then to make sure Sam would still end up wrong, Dabb had Sam argue against the plan which lead to Chuck zapping everyone out of existence ...and then had Sam have to admit how wrong he had been to do that... which Dabb basically has Sam do at the end of almost every damn season: admit he screwed up and then Dean and everyone else has to help him fix it. Dabb just can't help himself, and so we got Sam shooting Chuck and pissing him off at the end of last season to start up the drama/conflict for this one. Sam is a plot device and so is made to do stupid things for no reason that makes sense character-wise - like joining the organization that tortured him (cause that makes so much sense) - just so that there can be drama and Sam can learn a very special lesson and admit how wrong he was. Look at the end of almost every Dabb season and you'll see Sam admitting how wrong he was about something. In season 12 it was joining the BMoL. In 13 it was how he ended up getting killed and then manipulated by Lucifer. Last season it was Jack going bad and Nick going bad (a stellar season for Sam that was, oh and he got killed... again, humiliatingly, for that stupid mistake). It's usually the same damn pattern. Sam means well, but bless his heart... (a pattern established by Carver after he was done making Sam the less better brother,)

And in terms of Jack doing good now, Dabb made sure to put in anvils hints that the reason that Jack probably turned out good was mainly because of Dean, since it was established in the previous episode that Dean is the one who influences everyone around him to be better. Castiel's farewell speech to Dean was not subtle. It pretty much established that Dean is considered by the show to be the driving force behind  people and beings wanting to do and be better.  And this was started early on with Jack when Jack would emulate Dean, not Sam. Continued with Jack worrying about disappointing Dean. And Dabb started that theme in general way back at the end of season 11 with Amara. It's no coincidence for me that Castiel's farewell speech came last week, a week before Jack decides to do the right thing and not be influenced by Lucifer. Sure others may say things about Dean, but as Castiel says, they don't know any better. Those who know Dean, know the real truth. I can't see all of that being contradicted in the final episode. In my opinion, Dabb had been building up to that for a long time. He just has a stupid / clumsy way of getting there (as I described in my previous post in this thread.)

I don't think Cas' speech refered to anyone but Cas himself. And the "pay-off" for that was when Chuck proclaimed Dean the ultimate killer and Dean said that wasn't him.

But it had zero to do with influencing Jack.

And Amara? She really helped out Dean when Chuck was breaking his bones. That bond was dropped like nothing so she, too, could be all for the glory of teenage Stu Jack.

[gonzosgirrl]

I just hope that if Jensen does get his dream project (for Chaos) of producing the movie/mini-series/whatever for any kind of revisit, that they completely ignore Heaven, Gack (brill!) and any and all angels. Give 'Chuck' (aka Badd) the fate he deserves. Broke, alone and remembered by no one. 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, PinkChicken said:

I don't disagree but I don't know how much they knew about everything, or if he's like Jensen and doesn't really read ahead so ill give the benefit of the doubt. If for example it was pitched pretty broadly in overall terms, he could be put in line with Rowena. She spearheaded that spell idea and the solution that ep while Dean got beat up and Sam had feelings - she's now Queen of hell, and he can keep heaven in order. same same. Noone would really argue that Rowena stole the show, so maybe he just doesn't see it.

People be comparing him to Cousin Oliver a lot because that's the catchphrase, but I'm a bit too young for that so I have been referring to him as Wesley in my head. And lo and behold now he has super special powers and fucked off to become some all powerful traveller too. 

Anyways I'm holding off irl judgement because Will Wheaton didn't deserve any of that, and Alex was good enough in Scream vs spn that I didn't actually realise it was the same person until someone told me - I might not even notice if i see him again lol

I've never seen him in anything else, I don't think, but I enjoyed Alex way more as Belphegor than as Jack.  I wish they had left Jack in the Empty and just kept Ol' Phogy.  

IMO, actors just act. They do their job.  I don't know what he knew and when he knew it and I don't really care. He didn't write the scripts.  I have no knowledge that he went to the producers and demanded a larger part (though if he did, that's not really wrong of him, who doesn't want a bigger part?)  To me, the story is 100% the responsibility of the producers and writers. And, while I still don't hate any of them, because there's no reason to hate anybody over a TV show, I do think they royally screwed up a once great show.  And the Chuck thing was just off the charts offensive.

[Aeryn13]

1 hour ago, PinkChicken said:

I don't disagree but I don't know how much they knew about everything, or if he's like Jensen and doesn't really read ahead so ill give the benefit of the doubt. If for example it was pitched pretty broadly in overall terms, he could be put in line with Rowena. She spearheaded that spell idea and the solution that ep while Dean got beat up and Sam had feelings - she's now Queen of hell, and he can keep heaven in order. same same. Noone would really argue that Rowena stole the show, so maybe he just doesn't see it.

People be comparing him to Cousin Oliver a lot because that's the catchphrase, but I'm a bit too young for that so I have been referring to him as Wesley in my head. And lo and behold now he has super special powers and fucked off to become some all powerful traveller too. 

Anyways I'm holding off irl judgement because Will Wheaton didn't deserve any of that, and Alex was good enough in Scream vs spn that I didn't actually realise it was the same person until someone told me - I might not even notice if i see him again lol

The thing with Wesley was that at least he was there from the start. He just got a very unfavourable character type because the network/studio figured "we need a teenage insert for young people" and the writers made that into...well Wesley. Wheaton is a cool guy about it now but I reckon his teenage years were rough.

Jack came on in Season 13 (12 doesn't really count as just the last scene) and proceeded to eat the entire show. God himself was twisted and villified so Jack could ascend to being the new and better God.

I thought the actor was good on Arrow and fine in SPN (minus the last episode) but the character himself? Yikes.

[PAForrest]

24 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The thing with Wesley was that at least he was there from the start. He just got a very unfavourable character type because the network/studio figured "we need a teenage insert for young people" and the writers made that into...well Wesley. Wheaton is a cool guy about it now but I reckon his teenage years were rough.

Jack came on in Season 13 (12 doesn't really count as just the last scene) and proceeded to eat the entire show. God himself was twisted and villified so Jack could ascend to being the new and better God.

Drabb talked to his actor insert - apparently everyone got talked to by someone about what would happen this year except for Jensen. But Drabb told Alex upfront what his story was going to be, they always knew Gack would be crowned Queen. Maybe he didn't know the details of how much the two leads were going to get pushed to the background. But sorry, Alex knew it was his character's story.

My point is, he should have kept his mouth shut instead of trying to spin it, because now it feels like rubbing salt in the wound. He didn't write the scripts, but he knew the general endgame - and that endgame was not his character supporting the Winchesters, it was exactly the other way around.

Edited November 17, 2020 by PAForrest

[NougatJack]

IIRC Alex said that the producers told him that Jack would become a significant character with much screentime because

Jared and Jensen wanted more free time for their families. 

I just don´t know anymore where I read it. 

[gonzosgirrl]

25 minutes ago, NougatJack said:

IIRC Alex said that the producers told him that Jack would become a significant character with much screentime because

Jared and Jensen wanted more free time for their families. 

I just don´t know anymore where I read it. 

Pure fan speculation.

[Castiels Cat]

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Pure fan speculation.

That doesn't mean you hand the show over to him.

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I've never seen him in anything else, I don't think, but I enjoyed Alex way more as Belphegor than as Jack.  I wish they had left Jack in the Empty and just kept Ol' Phogy.  

IMO, actors just act. They do their job.  I don't know what he knew and when he knew it and I don't really care. He didn't write the scripts.  I have no knowledge that he went to the producers and demanded a larger part (though if he did, that's not really wrong of him, who doesn't want a bigger part?)  To me, the story is 100% the responsibility of the producers and writers. And, while I still don't hate any of them, because there's no reason to hate anybody over a TV show, I do think they royally screwed up a once great show.  And the Chuck thing was just off the charts offensive.

Eugenie is on record as saying that the show's audience is the Riverdale crowd at Comic Con. I thik that mindset was the problem and that erroneous assumption cost them their golden goose. Ratings didn't go up and the leads bailed. Pedowitz has said that their is no Supernatural without J2.

My guess is they tried to push a Spinoff of the new and improved but the numbers tanked or they thought they would be able to.

[Castiels Cat]

On 11/17/2020 at 8:43 AM, PinkChicken said:

The weight you put on some of these things is interesting. I would say for example, that literally noone blames Sam for what happened in Apocalypse world with Lucifer, and even Dean tells him there's nothing to apologise for. IMO Sam apologising and feeling bad for walking Lucifer into the camp there, isn't supposed to be read as admonishment from the writers, but a reflection of the responsibility Sam put on himself, and as an opening for Dean to put it into the "tell" in no uncertain terms that it isn't on Sam. Also from where I'm standing, giving Sam the leadership role with the hunters wasn't supposed to be an expose on incompetence, but what *I* would attribute to Dabbs stupid/clumsy way of not being able to really show what he wants to say, and oh whoops, we also need a bunch of cannon fodder to advance the story, too bad we put them in Sam's hands, but that was last episode, who even remembers that right? 

Both of them have been victims of unnecessary lies and impatience for the sake of drama for years. Usually this impatience they need to drive bad decisions is dressed up as hubris for Sam, and impulsive anger for Dean. They've really upped the ante for Dean under Dabb imo and I'm pretty sick of it, but I can see the hypocrisy creeping in on my views and realise there are things I have disliked in Sam for years that are at the core a result of similar writing issues. 😞 

Even though Dean ends up being kinda right if you think about things for more than the 3 seconds the show wants to let you, he still had plenty of moments where he wasn't allowed to explain the reasonings behind the position, and just reduced to an asshole rage-monster designed to breed drama and angst, while also upping the tension in the room to create a false sense of urgency. Often there was no real urgency or time limit on their immediate actions at all besides the fact that one character was on the cusp of being an idiot -and if they'd talk for 5 seconds there were actually some pretty good ethical dilemmas/perspectives we could have had in there with valid points on both sides. But no Dean is too much of a shoot-first-ask-questions-later brute, who is too bullheaded to listen to reason -clearly his position has no reason. THEN when he is talked down, he still gets to blame himself for not taking that action in the first place to prevent whatever happened, only there is much less often someone there who will correct him and assure the audience that's not true.
 

The entire purpose of the vampire cave debacle was for Sam to die on Dean's watch because his head wasn't in the game... he was focused on Mary. Everything that season was getting Dean to the point in which he would say yes to a sociopathic archangel to save Sam.

Yes Sam had his usual hubris going on because he wanted badly to save Mary too.

Both brothers were under high stress situations.

At the end of that episode it's pretty obvious that Dean will take out Lucifer if he can for Sam at any cost and SAVE SAMMY is back in full force.

Dabb is a comic book writer. His episodes are designed to hit essential bullets leading towards the conclusion.

Or at least they were. Maybe this season was too 

. I just wasn't interested because I was looking for the heroes' arcs and not the side characters. Likewise last season.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't deny this, but the problem is that Jack was always a threat.  Right from the day he was born.  Why did Chuck only want him to even exist in the first place if we are supposed to believe he wrote everything.  He was not only powerful but he could be bribed with a bar of Nougat.  

It makes me wonder if Jack was evil all along.  There were so many 'accidents" and his birth set off a chain of events that lead to the destruction of billions of people. 

Now he's so powerful he can't be stopped.  Sam and Dean better hope no bigger baddie comes along with a box of snickers. 

There was no rhyme or reason to what was and wasn't the hamster wheel.  Are we supposed to really believe that they were on it from Dean showing up at Sam's to him not shooting Sam 15 years later.  When Dean shows up on the field at Swan Song he's told he's not part of the story.  We've seen evidence that Dean is the influence on Cas, and that without him, Cas becomes a literal nazi.  Why would God constantly bring back Cas into the story if he couldnt' control him.

Why would God even write Jack into existence in the first place?  Someone who could destroy him?  Dean was supposed to kill Sam back in s2.  He didn't.  Dean never played his part in s5.  He rejected Michael. There are times it makes no sense for God to write the story the way he was.    That's becasue this season was a retconned mess. 

  Humanity was free for centuries because God himself said he was hands off, but because of Jack billions are dead on other worlds.   

The implication is...

Chuck found this Dean especially interesting because he went of script. So he let it happen. It was more fun that way. Chuck has said as much and this is why he "pervs" on Dean.

He was able to manipulate Dean enough to get his rocks off by knowing his tragic flaws and his penchant for self sacrifice and save Sam no matter what. He kept throwing the Apocalypses at them and twisting them for funsies.

The reason I am okay with Chuck as the villain is because the Winchesters deal with one Apocalypse after another and Chuck is absent save for a middle school play celebrating his books. Amara is angry and tanting to talk to him and he hides knowing it means she will lash out at innocents... the he tells Dean that he is the firewall and the world is his responsibility. Talk about a manipulative @#! Chuck set Dean up for the sacrifice all along. 

Chuck liked Dean's individuality until Moriah. He really wanted Jack dead and he really wanted Dean to do it. He had set in motion all of the elements for the tableau perfectly. He really wanted to enjoy Dean's pain afterwards. Chuck enjoys Hurt!DEAN.

I do not understand how the Empty can resurrect.

 

[Myrelle]

18 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

There was no rhyme or reason to what was and wasn't the hamster wheel.

This is the main reason that the entire Evil Writer God storyline will never really work.

There's far too many things that can be pointed out/at as not and never being a part of anything he'd ever written.

And yes, unless they weren't on the hamster wheel at all when Chuck's attention was elsewhere; but then how could Chuck call himself omniscient, if that were the case.

No, there are far too many plot holes for this storyline to ever be taken seriously, AFAIC.

So I'm going to forget that it ever happened and I would hope that if a reboot ever happens, whoever does it will forget about it, too.

 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Myrelle

[AwesomO4000]

20 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

I would say for example, that literally noone blames Sam for what happened in Apocalypse world with Lucifer, and even Dean tells him there's nothing to apologise for. IMO Sam apologising and feeling bad for walking Lucifer into the camp there, isn't supposed to be read as admonishment from the writers, but a reflection of the responsibility Sam put on himself, and as an opening for Dean to put it into the "tell" in no uncertain terms that it isn't on Sam.

I would agree with you except that the writers did pretty much make it Sam's fault... ironically due to one of those "urgency" things that also plagues Dean as you explained. Sam got himself - and a civilian - killed, because he insisted that there was no time to waste and so they had to go down that tunnel and walk into the very obvious trap and insist that the civilians had to go with them. Which was reckless and stupid, but drama was needed, so there you go. It was also an interesting choice on the writer's part that Sam couldn't protect / save his civilian while Dean saved his civilian... twice.

So yeah, Lucifer kind of was Sam's fault, because he got killed in the first place due to his insistence that they walk into the trap. If the writer had set it up as an ambush out of the blue accident, it would have been very different tonally, but he deliberately made a big deal out of Sam insisting they had to go through the tunnel. That Dean uncharacteristically contributed so little to the decision-making process made it seem even more of a deliberate choice on the writer's part.

21 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

Even though Dean ends up being kinda right if you think about things for more than the 3 seconds the show wants to let you, he still had plenty of moments where he wasn't allowed to explain the reasonings behind the position, and just reduced to an asshole rage-monster designed to breed drama and angst, while also upping the tension in the room to create a false sense of urgency. Often there was no real urgency or time limit on their immediate actions at all besides the fact that one character was on the cusp of being an idiot -and if they'd talk for 5 seconds there were actually some pretty good ethical dilemmas/perspectives we could have had in there with valid points on both sides. But no Dean is too much of a shoot-first-ask-questions-later brute, who is too bullheaded to listen to reason -clearly his position has no reason. THEN when he is talked down, he still gets to blame himself for not taking that action in the first place to prevent whatever happened, only there is much less often someone there who will correct him and assure the audience that's not true.

I can see this. Sam got this, too, sometimes, but more often with Carver. That incident in "King of the Damned," for example, still bugs me. Having Sam blame himself for Kevin because he should have known Gadreel's intentions was bad enough due to the retcon of it all, but to have Castiel right there and not contradict it or tell Sam that it wasn't his fault pissed me off on Sam's behalf. That whole Gadreel situation sucked perspective-wise for Sam. He was never allowed to express his anger on what he had a legitimate reason to be angry about - the lying, not the initial decision to let Gadreel save him - and got the "get over it" talk which then made Sam look bad when he didn't just get over it. That whole thing was just so frustrating, in my opinion, but if the writers did mention the lying, Sam might have actually had a legitimate point that wouldn't have been wiped away by his "I lied." And they couldn't have that, I guess.

So yes, I understand and sympathize with what you are talking about here. It's frustrating when there are two legitimate perspectives, but the writers choose to completely skew things and ignore one side.

[Katy M]

59 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

because he insisted that there was no time to waste and so they had to go down that tunnel and walk into the very obvious trap

There was no time.  The rift was not going to stay open forever and they had a long walk to Ohio ahead of them.

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, Katy M said:

There was no time.  The rift was not going to stay open forever and they had a long walk to Ohio ahead of them.

Admittedly, it's been a while since I've seen the episode (and I have little desire to revisit it), but I seem to remember thinking that the risk wasn't worth it, because if they died, they weren't getting there anyway... and they likely should have at least left the civilians behind, since they wouldn't be in the equation to have to worry about while fighting vampires, and the civilians had no investment in Sam and Dean's goal of finding Mary. The civilians should have stayed behind at least until Sam and Dean went in and killed the vampires. Castiel (If I remember correctly, Castiel was there) could have stayed with the civilians and followed behind a little later when the coast would either likely be clear or they would know not to go that way. I basically remember it being a bad plan, and it was set up that Sam uncharacteristically did most of the planning and also did the insisting on the urgency.

If the goal of the episode was only to have Sam dead and have to make the deal with Lucifer to move the plot along where they wanted it to go, there were so many easier ways that could have happened without setting it up the way they did. A simple surprise attack would have gotten it done, so if the writers didn't want it to be Sam's fault as the "tell" suggested... then why deliberately include a bunch of details - including one of the ultimate fails for the "saving people, hunting things" goal: a dead civilian - that make it look like Sam's fault? It either means they want it to look like Sam's fault, or it muddies the message which makes for bad storytelling.

@PinkChicken is right. The writers seem to choose these weird scenarios where logic is sometimes thrown out the window and alternative opinions are framed as unreasonable just to up the drama and create unnecessary conflict.

[AwesomO4000]

On 11/17/2020 at 8:30 AM, Aeryn13 said:

I don't think Cas' speech refered to anyone but Cas himself. And the "pay-off" for that was when Chuck proclaimed Dean the ultimate killer and Dean said that wasn't him.

It did. Castiel said that everyone who really knows Dean knows who he actually is, not what the bad guys see, so it included everyone. For me, the tone of that was that Dean, by his very nature, influenced Castiel and everyone who really knows Dean for who his is. I might need a rewatch, but that was the impression that I got.

Quote

But it had zero to do with influencing Jack.

I think there have been a lot of clues pointing to Dean's positive influence on Jack... some of them more heavy-handed and ill-conceived than others, but it started way back when Jack was imitating Dean rather than Sam. Nothing that happened since then shifted that opinion for me.

On 11/17/2020 at 8:30 AM, Aeryn13 said:

And Amara? She really helped out Dean when Chuck was breaking his bones. That bond was dropped like nothing so she, too, could be all for the glory of teenage Stu Jack.

Of course "the bond" is fickled. Amara is one of those all-powerful beings and isn't going to be thinking in terms of regular people. But for me, I saw the message that it was Dean who changed Amara's mind about destroying the world as being pretty clear. Dean being the representative of God's creation ultimately convinced her to give the world another chance, not any of the other people she talked to or absorbed. Yes, Amara had some influence from pigeon lady, but she was still up for destroying everything until Dean convinced her not to.

What happened later on is a muddled mess, but that's been indicative of the show for years now. As I've said, when this is over, the Winchester story for me is pretty much going to end with season 11. And I'm good with that.

[Binns]

Oh, here we go, lol. 
 

 

[gonzosgirrl]

One last post in here for the ultimate 'who the writers screwed over this week'. If you still don't believe Badd hates Dean, then I just don't know. I do know,  however, why Jared professed his love for the finale, long and loud. 

As someone  @trudysmom pointed out in the episode thread, they finally, literally,  stabbed Dean in the back.

Edited November 20, 2020 by gonzosgirrl
Credit

[FlickChick]

On 11/20/2020 at 5:47 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

One last post in here for the ultimate 'who the writers screwed over this week'. If you still don't believe Badd hates Dean, then I just don't know. I do know,  however, why Jared professed his love for the finale, long and loud. 

As someone  @trudysmom pointed out in the episode thread, they finally, literally,  stabbed Dean in the back.

This! Badd probably couldn't help himself - I think he hated envied Jensen that much. So he did to Dean what he couldn't do to Jensen. Such a small man! And yes, Jared's profuse love of the finale doesn't shed a light on him either.

[Res]

2 hours ago, FlickChick said:

This! Badd probably couldn't help himself - I think he hated envied Jensen that much. So he did to Dean what he couldn't do to Jensen. Such a small man! And yes, Jared's profuse love of the finale doesn't shed a light on him either.

I Totally Agree with both you and @gonzosgirrl all the way. It's so sad.

[shoetingstar]

On 11/20/2020 at 5:47 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

One last post in here for the ultimate 'who the writers screwed over this week'. If you still don't believe Badd hates Dean, then I just don't know. I do know,  however, why Jared professed his love for the finale, long and loud. 

As someone  @trudysmom pointed out in the episode thread, they finally, literally,  stabbed Dean in the back.

 

5 hours ago, FlickChick said:

This! Badd probably couldn't help himself - I think he hated envied Jensen that much. So he did to Dean what he couldn't do to Jensen. Such a small man! And yes, Jared's profuse love of the finale doesn't shed a light on him either.

 

2 hours ago, Res said:

I Totally Agree with both you and @gonzosgirrl all the way. It's so sad.

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

There's no question of where TPTB's loyalties lie. Again, I will never knowingly support anything Dick Dabb so much as breathes on in the future.

[ILoveReading]

I feel like Jensen is throwing a lot of shade here. (This was from before the finale.)

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I feel like Jensen is throwing a lot of shade here. (This was from before the finale.)

Evil!Jensen 😛

[ahrtee]

4 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

Since they were going for a "milk run" hunt, IMO it works that they chose vamps, because vamps have always been Dean's thing (I'm not among those who're annoyed because of all things he should be able to take them out easy). I think it was fitting. 

...

edit:  it felt weird because the rest of the ep was so -void- of people, but I actually like the touch of bringing Jenny back. Its not like she was a loose end, but it shows that they have had tangible impacts even on this small scale and to remember those (edit: obviously it would've been nicer to show wins rather than the one that got away but eh). Of course Dean remembers her, she's one of the first people they failed to save, one that got away, & you cant tell me he didn't kick himself for monthsss for not checking her over more first and their mistake almost getting Sam killed back in the day. And I've always been a fan of the idea of the Winchesters as a household name in monster circles. 

Dean didn't know that vampires still existed till Dead Man's Blood.  I would think he would have been happier with werewolves (his first kill, and he admiringly said "they're badass!") except that having Garth and his family among the lycanthropes (and seeing the neighborhood where werewolves went to the dentist)  kind of ruined that for him. ☹️

But wouldn't...what's her name--the female leader of that pack who swore to kill him--be a better choice to tie up loose ends?  TBH, Jenny just seemed rather random to me, especially since she had such a minor part in the original.   Maybe Dean would feel guilty, but I can't imagine her wanting to kill him all these years.  Maybe she was the only Vancouver vampire available for a cameo at the time of filming.  (Or maybe they chose vamps because she was available and didn't have to quarantine?)

Besides, didn't the BMoL wipe out pretty much all the vamps with their bombs and tracking devices?  And since this nest had obviously been around long enough for John to have them in his journal, I'd think they'd be among the first to be wiped out.  

Sorry, I still think the whole hunt was just thrown in as a means to an end.  I imagine the original script went something like:  "everyone dies and they wind up in heaven.  Figure out how to make it so."  

 

[Fireball]

On 11/20/2020 at 4:47 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

One last post in here for the ultimate 'who the writers screwed over this week'. If you still don't believe Badd hates Dean, then I just don't know. I do know,  however, why Jared professed his love for the finale, long and loud. 

As someone  @trudysmom pointed out in the episode thread, they finally, literally,  stabbed Dean in the back.

 

22 hours ago, FlickChick said:

This! Badd probably couldn't help himself - I think he hated envied Jensen that much. So he did to Dean what he couldn't do to Jensen. Such a small man! And yes, Jared's profuse love of the finale doesn't shed a light on him either.

So I haven't been following the show in the media... What is the backstory between Badd and Jensen? 

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, Fireball said:

 

So I haven't been following the show in the media... What is the backstory between Badd and Jensen? 

 There is no story, only the speculation of those who see what happened with Dean's character under his tenure. 

[Katy M]

5 hours ago, ahrtee said:

But wouldn't...what's her name--the female leader of that pack who swore to kill him--be a better choice to tie up loose ends?  TBH, Jenny just seemed rather random to me, especially since she had such a minor part in the original.   Maybe Dean would feel guilty, but I can't imagine her wanting to kill him all these years.  Maybe she was the only Vancouver vampire available for a cameo at the time of filming.  (Or maybe they chose vamps because she was available and didn't have to quarantine?)

 

I'm assuming the Kate actress wasn't available.  I don't even know how Dean knew Jenny's name.  It's not like they had a conversation.  But, I was OK with it, because that nest always seemed like unfinished business to me.  Just wish they had set it up differently to show that they were specifically targeting Sam and Dean.  They do keep their scents forever.

Have they hunted any werewolves since Sharp Teeth (the Garth episode)?  I'm not saying they haven't.  I just don't remember them.  I feel like they ruined werewolves a bit in Bitten with the whole pureblood thing.  To the best of my recollection, Madison and Glenn were the only feral werewolves they hunted. They had never even heard of the pureblood thing until Season 8 and now they're the rampant ones.

[tessathereaper]

5 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Dean didn't know that vampires still existed till Dead Man's Blood.  I would think he would have been happier with werewolves (his first kill, and he admiringly said "they're badass!") except that having Garth and his family among the lycanthropes (and seeing the neighborhood where werewolves went to the dentist)  kind of ruined that for him. ☹️

But wouldn't...what's her name--the female leader of that pack who swore to kill him--be a better choice to tie up loose ends?  TBH, Jenny just seemed rather random to me, especially since she had such a minor part in the original.   Maybe Dean would feel guilty, but I can't imagine her wanting to kill him all these years.  Maybe she was the only Vancouver vampire available for a cameo at the time of filming.  (Or maybe they chose vamps because she was available and didn't have to quarantine?)

Besides, didn't the BMoL wipe out pretty much all the vamps with their bombs and tracking devices?  And since this nest had obviously been around long enough for John to have them in his journal, I'd think they'd be among the first to be wiped out.  

Sorry, I still think the whole hunt was just thrown in as a means to an end.  I imagine the original script went something like:  "everyone dies and they wind up in heaven.  Figure out how to make it so."  

 

Wouldn't surprise me, the whole episode felt more like an outline than an actual story.  Dabb just filled in the big points Dean dies on a milk run in the lamest way possible and the way that would make it very hard to bring him back into any continuing stories and they end up in Heaven together at the end after Sam lives a long life with a son named Dean so that way they could use him in a potential spin off and not even allow Jensen's Dean to be the only one with that name.

[shoetingstar]

12 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I feel like Jensen is throwing a lot of shade here. (This was from before the finale.)

This was most definitely shade!

When is the last time they touched on the fact that Dean was a vampire for an episode? I would add Demon!Dean and Mark of Cain!Dean as well. It's so odd how there just ignored in later seasons. Seems like a glaring omission with them having him die in relation to a Vampire hunt.

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, shoetingstar said:

This was most definitely shade!

When is the last time they touched on the fact that Dean was a vampire for an episode? I would add Demon!Dean and Mark of Cain!Dean as well. It's so odd how there just ignored in later seasons. Seems like a glaring omission with them having him die in relation to a Vampire hunt.

Dean took out Benny's nest by himself while Benny dealt with his girlfriend and the old man. This was as a human not MoC or as a vamp. He survived a year in Purgatory.The idea that he suddenly forgot how to fight vamps and couldn't take on 4 is ridiculous.

Dabb cannot even remember basic canon or character arcs in a show he has worked on for 10 years. This in itself is a problem. The script was paint by numbers, laughable, painful...

I wondered if his nieces helped him with it.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Castiels Cat