“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[DeeDee79]

I just had a thought. With the current ( more like last 3 seasons ) tone of the show which is basically Sam and Dean taking a backseat to Jack should we have a new thread to air our grievances about this turn? Maybe along the lines of "Bitch & Jerk vs JackSue and Not!Cas"? Or would this be a tad too bitchy? 🤔

[ILoveReading]

This is how Singer describes the final ep

Its not really spoilery but I'll tag just in case.

https://variety.com/2020/tv/news/how-supernatural-filmed-during-covid-19-1234772638/

Spoiler

The series finale of “Supernatural,” Singer said, was “more of an emotional journey with our characters” and a “personal look at the guys” than an episode filled with action.

This sounds horrible for so many reasons.  First and foremost is that Singer is a terrible director, and thinks Dean is mentally deficient and Dabb sees Sam as the special golden child who could be everything and anything if only weak, clingy bossy Dean didnt hold him back.  So I can see this as an ode to 'This is your life Sam Winchester' and Dean has to learn one last very special lesson"

 

[Pondlass1]

Singer has no clue. Just watch the convention video of his panel.  I think afterwards Jensen says something like... were they hard on you? 🤣

Edited September 30, 2020 by Pondlass1

[Terese]

Chuck, quoted from The Trap. "You still think you are the hero of this story?"

Edited September 29, 2020 by Terese

[FlickChick]

21 hours ago, Terese said:

Chuck, quoted from The Trap. "You still think you are the hero of this story?"

I'm responding here because it is definitively BvJ. Terese also said in her other post that Dabb has minimized Sam & Dean's importance to the story since he heard the bad news about no spinoffs period. I agree that he has done not only that but also has done his best to make Dean into an idiot. I also believe it is the reason that the boys (I believe Jensen) pulled the plug. Who wants to work under these conditions when the showrunner has a grudge against you? The worst mistake that they made, IMO, is that they let him get one last season to do whatever the hell he wanted to get back at them. They should have made the decision earlier and exited in S14. Yes, I know about contracts, but they may have had a good case due to the extenuating circumstances, when they saw the writing on the wall.  The fact that this season 15 is considered by many viewers to be trash (actually a dumpster fire),  that Dabb proudly said in an interview that only about 30% will like his finale, would give anyone good reasons to exit earlier than planned. I wish they exited at the end of S14 no matter the ending.

[Terese]

8 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I'm responding here because it is definitively BvJ. Terese also said in her other post that Dabb has minimized Sam & Dean's importance to the story since he heard the bad news about no spinoffs period. I agree that he has done not only that but also has done his best to make Dean into an idiot. I also believe it is the reason that the boys (I believe Jensen) pulled the plug. Who wants to work under these conditions when the showrunner has a grudge against you? The worst mistake that they made, IMO, is that they let him get one last season to do whatever the hell he wanted to get back at them. They should have made the decision earlier and exited in S14. Yes, I know about contracts, but they may have had a good case due to the extenuating circumstances, when they saw the writing on the wall.  The fact that this season 15 is considered by many viewers to be trash (actually a dumpster fire),  that Dabb proudly said in an interview that only about 30% will like his finale, would give anyone good reasons to exit earlier than planned. I wish they exited at the end of S14 no matter the ending.

I'm sure both Jensen and Jared would be supported in court. No company can force its employees to destroy a product the company produces. I find Sam equally sabotaged. Both have been shown to be incompetent and utterly useless.

What I am most surprised about is the open acknowledgment of the CW President, that not only has Supernatural been the Flagship all these years, but that he loves this show. I would think there would have been serious talks, if not a firing, leading to major changes. Additionally, the show has lost marketable ratings this season. Its final year should have seen an increase, just for nostalgia. 

I can't take this final season seriously, though, nor last season. Well, last season was mind numbing. This season, with all the retcon and cheap explanations or no explanations, is so ridiculous.  It has been so reduced, it as become irrelevant. It doesn't even feel like Supernatural. Sam and Dean do absolutely nothing. They just sit around the bunker until someone pops in to tell them what, when and how to do something. And they never ask WHY? Who are these people? Maybe we really have been watching a Mirror Parallel Universe since Moriah. It doesn't excuse boring, superficial, retconned story and characters; but, it would explain it.

 

[Smad]

Haven't they been doing yearly contract renewals for a while now? I don't understand why they didn't interfere by S13 at the latest. After S12 and then 13, even a blind person could see the writing on the wall with Dabb as showrunner. I know they are team players and what not but I always thought they cared about the integrity of their work to some degree. There is no show without J+J, however there would still be a show without Dabb (and frankly without Bob Singer as well). Shouldn't be a problem to get a better showrunner and frankly better writers.

[ILoveReading]

18 minutes ago, Smad said:

Haven't they been doing yearly contract renewals for a while now

They've been doing 2 year renewals.  I read somewhere (although no source) that the network really wanted s16 and 17 and were negotiating for it.    I think they gave Jensen incentive  to sign by misleading him on the Michael storyline by telling him it would last 14 eps.  It technically did but Jensen was really only given 1.5 eps to really play the character before iit was dropped and handed off to another character. 

There was a blind item that went around saying a popular character was leaving his long running series.  It was never revealed who it was because it was later retracted saying they agreed to do one more season.  I know there was speculation it might have Jensen.   But it was never revealed who it was.

 

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by ILoveReading

[Aeryn13]

26 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

They've been doing 2 year renewals.  I read somewhere (although no source) that the network really wanted s16 and 17 and were negotiating for it.    I think they gave Jensen incentive  to sign by misleading him on the Michael storyline by telling him it would last 14 eps.  It technically did but Jensen was really only given 1.5 eps to really play the character before iit was dropped and handed off to another character. 

There was a blind item that went around saying a popular character was leaving his long running series.  It was never revealed who it was because it was later retracted saying they agreed to do one more season.  I know there was speculation it might have Jensen.   But it was never revealed who it was.

 

 

I think from some things coming out later this almost certainly refered to Stephen Amell. 

[gonzosgirrl]

I think Jensen was lured by the promise of the Michael storyline, and then absolutely screwed over, beginning with the marionette fight, then with Badd hanging him out to dry as far as any insight, a big part of his intro being cut, and then finally handing off his story to the nougat baby. There isn't any doubt in my mind it was Jensen who pulled the plug, though I'm sure they (Jared and Misha) had to agree first. 

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Supernatural Media" thread:

On 10/3/2020 at 11:00 AM, Castiels Cat said:

I think Faith is pretty strong and I love Citizen Fang 

On 10/3/2020 at 12:06 PM, Casseiopeia said:

Sera Gamble and Ben Edlund!

No, no, no... "Citizen Fang" is Daniel Loflin. I despise that episode (Sorry, Castiel's Cat), and Ben Edlund doesn't usually write Sam and Dean acting like that towards each other. Now, I'm not saying that I haven't really disliked a Ben Edlund episode before, but it wasn't because I thought the story made either brother - or both to some extent in this case - look like complete and utter asshats like that episode did.

I found "Citizen Fang" to be an exercise in both futility*** and character assassination... not something Ben Edlund would do. Edlund usually lets Sam and Dean shine rather than making them look bad in order for other characters to shine instead.

*** Why bother to write this rich character history and relationship with Benny's relative, Elizabeth (?) only to have it come to absolutely nothing due to plot machinations - many of which made almost no sense? This was the episode that let me know for sure that I was going to pretty much hate season 8 and that there was little salvaging it. Then "Torn and Frayed" pounded the nails in the coffin. Ironically another episode in futility - "see the actual likeable angel? Well let's just torture him endlessly and then kill him off for no good reason."

Now that I think about it, all of the plots in season 8 were exercises in futility. Every last one. Benny, Amelia, Dean's brief foray into non-codependence, Sam's non-sensical return to wanting "normal" after not being heard of for at least 3 seasons, even the trials... all went nowhere and produced zero character growth. No wonder I hated season 8 so much.

And now after that bit of revelation - because it explains a lot. - I'll go back to pretending season 8 (and 9 for similar plus some different reasons) never happened.

Edited October 7, 2020 by AwesomO4000

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Supernatural Bitterness" thread:

11 hours ago, FlickChick said:

Well the writing was indeed on the wall concerning Badd even with his botched season 11 finale. I recall the guys talking about the final three episodes not making sense and having to rewrite several parts of them in order to make them cohesive. So Badd's inexperience in handling being a good showrunner was evident even before he set out to, and finally succeeded in ruining the show going forward. So I'll take Carver any day over this asshole. No he wasn't perfect; neither was any other showrunner or writer. At least he entertained me.

Carver was the only showrunner to make me severely dislike Sam and Dean. That's not something I can easily forgive.

9 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

I totally agree. At least Carver remembered that the Winchesters were the main characters and not there to prop up random Gary Stu's. 

I disagree with that actually. There were times for me during Carver's seasons where Dean, and especially Sam took a backseat to some of Carver's favorites, if not always in plot then in moral high ground. Gadreel was a good example. Gadreel and his "heroic journey" took over a good portion of the last two or three episodes of season 9. Sam's main role during those episodes seemed to be to talk about Gadreel: how he was misunderstood, how they needed Gadreel to defeat Metatron, how hard Gadreel was trying to help out, and what a "real friend" he was. At the very least Sam should have been conflicted about Gadreel rather than his hype man, and that should have been reflected n the dialogue, but nope. It had to be about how awesome Gadreel was instead.

And Carver's insistence on having Amelia be the love of Sam's life (Jessica who?), gave us that Sam / Meg awkward discussion in "Goodbye Stranger." Not organic at all, in my opinion, but shoehorned in for one last shot at trying to make Amelia a thing.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, NougatJack said:

Dean has already been in the library in 13.05, now it´s Sam´s time to visit, why not? 

And, why does it always have to be a competition between the two brothers?

As @ILoveReading said, you answered your own question. They can never leave anything that Dean does alone - it is always repeated by Sam, whether in a big way or casually, just to even the score (see: the hot minute he was going to take on the Mark). And Sam did already have his story with the books, except his 'prophecy' actually came true (he 'killed' Rowena) while Dean's was cast aside to give his storyline to the Nougat baby.

Spoiler

No doubt history will repeat itself with this new encounter with the books.

 

[Bergamot]

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Gadreel and his "heroic journey" took over a good portion of the last two or three episodes of season 9.

Yes, Gadreel did redeem himself in the end, and sacrifice himself in the last episode of the season. But he is hardly the only antagonist to have done that on the show -- for example, Metatron, among others.

And I disagree that Gadreel's story took over those last three episodes. In "King of the Damned", Gadreel had two brief scenes with Metatron, where we see him having second thoughts about working with him. Then in "Stairway to Heaven", there are a couple scenes where he meets with Castiel, and Castiel tries to enlist his help. Gadreel shows up at the end of the episode and gets attacked by Dean, and then in the last episode we see him working with the good guys to bring down Metatron. But "Do You Believe in Miracles" is not about Gadreel -- if it is about anything, it is about the end of the road that Dean started down when he took on the Mark.

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Sam's main role during those episodes seemed to be to talk about Gadreel: how he was misunderstood

I am assuming this is hyperbole. Because of course Sam didn't spend those episodes doing nothing but stand around and talk about Gadreel being misunderstood; he was working with the others to find a way to bring down Metatron. And most importantly, in the final episode of the season, the one with the culmination of Gadreel's "heroic journey", Sam was laser-focused not on Gadreel, but on what was going on with Dean and the Mark of Cain.

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

There were times for me during Carver's seasons where Dean, and especially Sam took a backseat to some of Carver's favorites, if not always in plot then in moral high ground.

I guess Sam calling Gadreel their friend and being willing to work with him might be seen as a problem in the sense that it means that this was a more complex story than some people wanted. I think that there were some (elsewhere, not here) who became invested at the beginning of the season in a pure uncomplicated narrative of Dean is Abusive / Gadreel is Evil / Sam is Victimized, and didn't want anything to mess with it.

But in a way, I think making Gadreel a more layered character with his own story actually created more space for what was really the center of the story. It opened up the opportunity to explore the intricacies of Dean and Sam's relationship, more than it would have if Gadreel was just a black-and-white, two-dimensional EVIL character. Of course I don't want Dean or Sam to be two-dimensional evil characters either -- but that doesn't mean that I feel the story has failed if they don't always end up with the "moral high ground". We want to love and respect our heroes, but there is sometimes more to a well-written character than putting them in situations where they are always right.

Gadreel worked for me as a character, and so did his story. And unlike some (so many!) of secondary characters on the show, they didn't overdo his story and go on and on and drag it out interminably and then keep bringing the character back after his story was over. I thought Tahmoh Penikett did a good job with the role, and the character had enough layers and nuance that his eventual redemption was believable.

So I am glad that they did something with the character besides just make him a caricature of evilness. And as I mentioned, I like that his story actually had a beginning, middle and END, unlike too many other characters on the show who keep coming back.

[Katy M]

20 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Yes, Gadreel did redeem himself in the end, and sacrifice himself in the last episode of the season.

Not in my opinion.  They had established in Metafiction and earlier in that episode that his biggest fear was being captive for eternity.  In Metafiction he tried to get Dean to kill him to avoid that fate.  So, whatever good he did in killing himself to get out of jail was just a side benefit.  If they'd wanted to redeem him, they would have left that little side arc out.

[NougatJack]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

As @ILoveReading said, you answered your own question. They can never leave anything that Dean does alone - it is always repeated by Sam, whether in a big way or casually, just to even the score (see: the hot minute he was going to take on the Mark). And Sam did already have his story with the books, except his 'prophecy' actually came true (he 'killed' Rowena) while Dean's was cast aside to give his storyline to the Nougat baby.

  Reveal spoiler

No doubt history will repeat itself with this new encounter with the books.

 

Hmmm, I just don‘t see a problem here - if the story is interesting and the show can entertain me, I don’t care which character has got the most screentime.

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, NougatJack said:

Hmmm, I just don‘t see a problem here - if the story is interesting and the show can entertain me, I don’t care which character has got the most screentime.

It's not the screentime, it's the recycling of iconic moments for one character to another that's annoying.  Why not come up with something new instead of repeating (and therefore lessening the impact/importance)?  

[Aeryn13]

7 minutes ago, NougatJack said:

Hmmm, I just don‘t see a problem here - if the story is interesting and the show can entertain me, I don’t care which character has got the most screentime.

It has nothing to do with screentime, it`s about the quality of the stories given to each character and if the characters are treated with some respect. Dean`s "stories" are usually treated as meaningless and to show how wrong he was and then the plot points are given to any other character where suddenly for them they are meaningful and show how great, wonderful and noble that other character is.  

Because heaven forbid any other character gets treated as flawed, called out as wrong or demeaned. That only has to go to Dean. 

Or equally heaven forbid that anything Dean does gets to stand as unique and cool. Can`t have that, it would make one think the character deserves any kind of respect. Blasphemy under Badd.

 

Edited October 8, 2020 by Aeryn13

[Bergamot]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Not in my opinion.  They had established in Metafiction and earlier in that episode that his biggest fear was being captive for eternity.  In Metafiction he tried to get Dean to kill him to avoid that fate.  So, whatever good he did in killing himself to get out of jail was just a side benefit.  If they'd wanted to redeem him, they would have left that little side arc out.

If all that mattered to him was avoiding being held captive in Heaven, all he had to do was to refuse to help Dean and Sam, and not betray Metatron and sneak Castiel into Heaven in the first place to find the angel tablet. That's how he got caught. He risked being taken captive in order to do the right thing.

I think Gadreel was already seeking redemption when he agreed to serve Metatron. It's just that he trusted the wrong angel. And he did some terrible things for Metatron, in his misguided attempt to restore his good name. I like that although it was never made explicit, there was an implication that maybe Gadreel was not the sharpest tool in the shed! He wanted to be respected, but kept getting suckered -- by Lucifer, and then by Metatron. Maybe not dumb, but easily fooled?

I agree that he definitely was suffering from PTSD from his captivity, and I thought it was another nice bit of characterization that he would rather die than go through that again. Was his final sacrifice self-serving? Yes, in a way, because he could not bear to be locked up again, and of course he wanted to be remembered well. But I think he sincerely wanted to do the right thing at that point. As I said, I liked that the character was given layers, rather than just making him two-dimensional.

[gonzosgirrl]

17 minutes ago, NougatJack said:

Hmmm, I just don‘t see a problem here - if the story is interesting and the show can entertain me, I don’t care which character has got the most screentime.

That's the difference and why this subject will always be circular. Watching Jack become the hero of the story does not entertain me in any way. I don't think anyone mentioned screen time in any way. It's about the story and the content and Nougat Baby content is not what I signed up for.

Edited October 8, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[PAForrest]

22 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

That's the difference and why this subject will always be circular. Watching Jack become the hero of the story does not entertain me in any way. I don't think anyone mentioned screen time in any way. It's about the story and the content and Nougat Baby content is not what I signed up for.

Besides, this line is always spouted by someone who knows his/her favorite character has the storyline. Sam fans used to throw out this "I don't care ..." BS to Dean fans year after year - until such a time that Dean finally got a storyline or plotlet, as they usually ended up being. Then suddenly it was all wailing about Sam being sidelined and pissing and moaning about whatever Dean's little bit of plotlet it was at the time. In other words, their claims about not caring who has the storyline never rang true. Turns out they cared very much.

The thing about 15 years of repurposing storylines or plot points or scenes for another character - and let's be honest, they're almost always Dean plot points or scenes for Sam or someone else - is that at best it's lazy as shit writing. Do better, it's your job.

At worst it's childishness from adults who should have better things to do, like showrunning and writing a good story, rather than getting bent out of shape that their not so favorite character had a cool scene or plot that they want to take away from said not so favorite character and give to their favorite character, because waah waaah waaaaaah!!!!!!

And the problem is they're completely missing a couple of huge elements that made said scenes or plot points cool at the time. Foremost, the actor who sold it; and two, the fact that it was new and different in that moment. Once you try and recreate it for another character, it's not only insanely obvious why you're doing that, but it always, always, always, ALWAYS pales in comparison. Without fail.

Honestly, if there were more episodes this season, or we had another season, how much you want to bet Sam or Jackie Poo Sue or even Asstiel would suddenly have a tap dance number, for whatever lame reason the writer du jour tried to come up with at the time.

[gonzosgirrl]

57 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

Honestly, if there were more episodes this season, or we had another season, how much you want to bet Sam or Jackie Poo Sue or even Asstiel would suddenly have a tap dance number, for whatever lame reason the writer du jour tried to come up with at the time

Well Jared did say he could've done it, insisted on it, in fact. Probably a good thing there aren't more episodes.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I think Gadreel was already seeking redemption when he agreed to serve Metatron. It's just that he trusted the wrong angel. And he did some terrible things for Metatron, in his misguided attempt to restore his good name. I like that although it was never made explicit, there was an implication that maybe Gadreel was not the sharpest tool in the shed! He wanted to be respected, but kept getting suckered -- by Lucifer, and then by Metatron. Maybe not dumb, but easily fooled?

But even when he was talking to Metatron it seemed more about restoring his rputation and what others thought of him than actually caring about humanity or angelanity.  It's not big deal (to me anyway), I just never really felt like Gadreel was some misunderstood hero. I mean who kills their best friend in order to redeem themselves just because someone tells them to?  That was obviously a loyalty test and if Gadreel had any character he would have failed it.

[Bergamot]

23 minutes ago, Katy M said:

But even when he was talking to Metatron it seemed more about restoring his rputation and what others thought of him than actually caring about humanity or angelanity.  It's not big deal (to me anyway), I just never really felt like Gadreel was some misunderstood hero.

Yes, and that is exactly what Gadreel admitted to Castiel just before he blew himself up, that he had been wrong to spend thousands of years thinking only of himself and his reputation, instead of the angels' mission to take care of humans.

It's not a big deal to me either; it's not as if Gadreel is one of my favorite characters or that I believe he is some amazing hero. Although I think he did act to redeem himself in the end, which is not the same as being a hero. The only reason I first responded is that I do think he is an interesting character, that he added something to the story as opposed to being an example of something Carver did wrong.

Actually now that I think about it, Gadreel wasn't so dumb after all, the way that he managed to manipulate Dean, and controlled him for so long by using his fears for Sam against him. That was pretty sneaky.

[Katy M]

18 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

The only reason I first responded is that I do think he is an interesting character, that he added something to the story as opposed to being an example of something Carver did wrong.

I'll agree with that.  He was interesting.  I guess I just saw him as more bad than you did. Which is fine. 

 

19 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Actually now that I think about it, Gadreel wasn't so dumb after all, the way that he managed to manipulate Dean, and controlled him for so long by using his fears for Sam against him. That was pretty sneaky.

Yes, and told him he wasn't really listening to their conversations because he had better things to do.  That cracked me up. He literally had nowhere else he could be.  Obviously he was listening to all the conversations, Dean.  

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Well Jared did say he could've done it, insisted on it, in fact.

🙄🙄🙄

[FlickChick]

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Well Jared did say he could've done it, insisted on it, in fact. Probably a good thing there aren't more episodes.

Yeah, I rolled my eyes at that.  Maybe it's not just Sam that has to get everything that Dean does. Hmmm?

[Terese]

7 hours ago, NougatJack said:

Hmmm, I just don‘t see a problem here - if the story is interesting and the show can entertain me, I don’t care which character has got the most screentime.

Truly, I don't see a problem either.

[Myrelle]

8 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Yes, Gadreel did redeem himself in the end, and sacrifice himself in the last episode of the season. But he is hardly the only antagonist to have done that on the show -- for example, Metatron, among others.

And I disagree that Gadreel's story took over those last three episodes. In "King of the Damned", Gadreel had two brief scenes with Metatron, where we see him having second thoughts about working with him. Then in "Stairway to Heaven", there are a couple scenes where he meets with Castiel, and Castiel tries to enlist his help. Gadreel shows up at the end of the episode and gets attacked by Dean, and then in the last episode we see him working with the good guys to bring down Metatron. But "Do You Believe in Miracles" is not about Gadreel -- if it is about anything, it is about the end of the road that Dean started down when he took on the Mark.

I am assuming this is hyperbole. Because of course Sam didn't spend those episodes doing nothing but stand around and talk about Gadreel being misunderstood; he was working with the others to find a way to bring down Metatron. And most importantly, in the final episode of the season, the one with the culmination of Gadreel's "heroic journey", Sam was laser-focused not on Gadreel, but on what was going on with Dean and the Mark of Cain.

I guess Sam calling Gadreel their friend and being willing to work with him might be seen as a problem in the sense that it means that this was a more complex story than some people wanted. I think that there were some (elsewhere, not here) who became invested at the beginning of the season in a pure uncomplicated narrative of Dean is Abusive / Gadreel is Evil / Sam is Victimized, and didn't want anything to mess with it.

But in a way, I think making Gadreel a more layered character with his own story actually created more space for what was really the center of the story. It opened up the opportunity to explore the intricacies of Dean and Sam's relationship, more than it would have if Gadreel was just a black-and-white, two-dimensional EVIL character. Of course I don't want Dean or Sam to be two-dimensional evil characters either -- but that doesn't mean that I feel the story has failed if they don't always end up with the "moral high ground". We want to love and respect our heroes, but there is sometimes more to a well-written character than putting them in situations where they are always right.

Gadreel worked for me as a character, and so did his story. And unlike some (so many!) of secondary characters on the show, they didn't overdo his story and go on and on and drag it out interminably and then keep bringing the character back after his story was over. I thought Tahmoh Penikett did a good job with the role, and the character had enough layers and nuance that his eventual redemption was believable.

So I am glad that they did something with the character besides just make him a caricature of evilness. And as I mentioned, I like that his story actually had a beginning, middle and END, unlike too many other characters on the show who keep coming back.

This is how I have come to feel about the Gadreel character/storyline also.

And while I'd never seen any of his previous work/projects, I was so impressed with the actor who portayed him, too-which likely played a large part in my enjoyment of that storyline also.

And yes, the storyline was much more intricately woven and written than anything that Badd has ever given us, IMO too; AND Dean carried the myth-arc for at least half of Carver's reign while even Kripke and Gamble had both never allowed that to happen, that being the biggest gripe that the Dean fandom had voiced up until Carver took over. 

But FWIW, I've never ever felt that the writing on this show was award-winning or even all that. At times, it was better than at others to me, but IMO, every showrunner's problem has always been with the resolutions to the very ambitious setups that they've all given us.

IMO, Carver was at least as good as Kripke in that regard, and better as far as his writing and showrunning concerning Dean/JA went. 

Badd is The Worst, AFAIC, in all categories. 

So bad that I can't even remember much from S12-15 at all and especially when specifically titled episodes are referenced of which I can possibly remember what happened in 5 or 6 of them-if that many.

And that's the biggest difference I've felt as a viewer since Dabb took over the showrunning duties.

 

 

Edited October 8, 2020 by Myrelle
Additions

[gonzosgirrl]

37 minutes ago, Terese said:

Truly, I don't see a problem either.

That's why this thread exists, for those who do see a problem to talk about it. 

[tessathereaper]

3 hours ago, FlickChick said:

Yeah, I rolled my eyes at that.  Maybe it's not just Sam that has to get everything that Dean does. Hmmm?

Well he IS the Car guy in real life you know, it's HIM, he's The Car Guy!. 🙂

[AwesomO4000]

17 hours ago, Bergamot said:

In "King of the Damned", Gadreel had two brief scenes with Metatron, where we see him having second thoughts about working with him.

A main scene between Sam and Castiel in that episode was about Gadreel, and it completely retconned (in my opinion) what actually happened. The reason why the "misunderstoood" part bothered me so much was because in order to get that, the writers changed the nature of Sam's possession from one he knew nothing about and was mistreated during into Sam saying (paraphrase) "he didn't feel evil, just misunderstood." This implied that Sam had some feeling or knowledge of Gadreel's possession, even going so far as to imply that Sam didn't think Gadreel felt evil but he (Sam) was wrong because Gadreel killed Kevin... thereby putting some responsibility of Kevin's death onto Sam. They even had Sam say almost those exact words.

In my opinion, it was a crappy thing to do in order to make Gadreel look less bad, because in the process they made Sam look worse.

18 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I guess Sam calling Gadreel their friend and being willing to work with him might be seen as a problem in the sense that it means that this was a more complex story than some people wanted. I think that there were some (elsewhere, not here) who became invested at the beginning of the season in a pure uncomplicated narrative of Dean is Abusive / Gadreel is Evil / Sam is Victimized, and didn't want anything to mess with it.

But in a way, I think making Gadreel a more layered character with his own story actually created more space for what was really the center of the story. It opened up the opportunity to explore the intricacies of Dean and Sam's relationship, more than it would have if Gadreel was just a black-and-white, two-dimensional EVIL character. Of course I don't want Dean or Sam to be two-dimensional evil characters either -- but that doesn't mean that I feel the story has failed if they don't always end up with the "moral high ground". We want to love and respect our heroes, but there is sometimes more to a well-written character than putting them in situations where they are always right.

Except the writers did make it a somewhat less complicated story by making Gadreel not the evil guy.

I didn't want a "Dean is abusive" story, but I didn't want a straight up Sam is wrong story either, because in Carver's storylines, Sam almost never has the moral high ground and he's almost never right, no matter what manipulations the plot has to do to make this so. Gadreel could have been redeemed without having to turn Sam into a hypocrite who was unreasonable angry about what Dean did, but the writers chose to go ahead and make Sam look like the hypocrite, mean brother who just held a grudge even though the entity possessing him was just a "misunderstood" guy just trying to redeem himself. They made that clear with Sam's speech in "The Purge," and the rest of the season marched on predictably in that direction. Writers and showrunners in the past had let both brothers have opinions that differed but let both have good points, but in the Carver era, it usually had to be a right vs wrong thing. And Sam almost always got the "wrong" side.

The season 10 finale took this to it's extreme conclusion with the contrast of Sam's risky decision causing an apocalypse while Dean's risky decision had no bad effects whatsoever.

18 hours ago, Bergamot said:

And most importantly, in the final episode of the season, the one with the culmination of Gadreel's "heroic journey", Sam was laser-focused not on Gadreel, but on what was going on with Dean and the Mark of Cain.

Sam spent much of the episode unconscious while everyone else had a role in saving the world. He showed up just in time to be shown as a hypocrite and be shown how wrong he had been to be mean to Dean. For me that wasn't a very satisfying role for his character.

It's not that Gadreel had a redemption journey that annoys me. It was that during his redemption journey details were changed, so that everyone else could be justified in their actions while Sam was made to look crappy.

Others' opinions will vary.

[AwesomO4000]

17 hours ago, PAForrest said:

The thing about 15 years of repurposing storylines or plot points or scenes for another character - and let's be honest, they're almost always Dean plot points or scenes for Sam or someone else -

No, it goes both ways. In my opinion, the Mark of Cain storyline was pretty much a repurposing of Sam's demon blood storyline, except of course Dean was able to handle it better than Sam was, because can't have Dean have any major faults like hubris or addictive tendencies, or anything like that. And when Sam questions Dean's judgement he's just a mean, old hypocrite. (And yes, this is mostly hyperbole to make a point.)

Even Sam's "We have work to do" was repurposed for Dean during this time (I actually had no problem with this one.)

I just don't see the plot repurposing as going only one way.

10 hours ago, Myrelle said:

And yes, the storyline was much more intricately woven and written than anything that Badd has ever given us, IMO too; AND Dean carried the myth-arc for at least half of Carver's reign while even Kripke and Gamble had both never allowed that to happen, that being the biggest gripe that the Dean fandom had voiced up until Carver took over. 

I still don't get this criticism, especially of Gamble. Dean carried plenty of mytharc and plot during Gamble's rein. And if one of the complaints this year is that Sam's thing with Eileen is an arc, well then wouldn't Lisa also be an arc? But in addition to Lisa there was getting Sam's soul back, the conflict with Castiel, killing Eve, the hunting down and killing of Dick Roman, the Bobby ghost plot, and I'm probably missing something. That's a lot of stuff for two seasons, in my opinion.

17 hours ago, PAForrest said:

Besides, this line is always spouted by someone who knows his/her favorite character has the storyline. Sam fans used to throw out this "I don't care ..." BS to Dean fans year after year - until such a time that Dean finally got a storyline or plotlet, as they usually ended up being. Then suddenly it was all wailing about Sam being sidelined and pissing and moaning about whatever Dean's little bit of plotlet it was at the time. In other words, their claims about not caring who has the storyline never rang true. Turns out they cared very much.

My complaints had nothing to do with Sam being "sidelined." It was that while giving Dean a plot, Carver chose to make Sam the antagonist to Dean's plot. He couldn't let Sam be helpful or supportive or anything positive, only questioning and wrong. Carver liked his annoying brother vs brother manufactured crap, so when he would give Dean the plot, he would make Sam the "bad guy" even if he had to make Sam act out of character or out of proportion to do it.

I think it proves my point here that in my favorite season of the Carver era, Sam had no real plot arc at all. Season 11 was by far my favorite, even though the mytharc revolved around Dean. It was my favorite because Sam wasn't made to be the "bad guy" while Dean was having the plot arc.

So for me, not caring which brother has the plotline is very much true. My main concern is that the story be organic to characterization and that the characters are written in character.

Edited October 9, 2020 by AwesomO4000

[Myrelle]

So do any of us doubt that we're headed towards yet another Meen!Dean admitting how wrong he was(yet again and some more cuz some in the writers' room AND in this fandom, just can't get enough of it, at this point) and grovelling for forgiveness for his "sin" of being too angry all the time.

Fuck this show and these writers right now.

I don't think I have ever hated it more.

Thank God it's almost over and Jensen is almost free of it. 

By the end and in my book, he will have earned an emmy nomination just for keeping his character the least bit likable through these last three years under Andre Badd and his cohorts. 

ETA: Just wanted to add that, in spite of it all, Dean still tops most of the SPN character popularity polls that I've seen-which for me only reinforces the idea that JA more than deserves an Emmy nomination for Dean Winchester.

 

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by Myrelle

[AwesomO4000]

16 hours ago, Myrelle said:

So do any of us doubt that we're headed towards yet another Meen!Dean admitting how wrong he was(yet again and some more cuz some in the writers' room AND in this fandom, just can't get enough of it, at this point) and grovelling for forgiveness for his "sin" of being too angry all the time.

I do.

I think this could just as easily end up another "everyone gets angry at and questions Dean, but in reality Dean is right and everyone else is wrong" scenario like season 8, 9, or 10, or the first half of 11, and then 12, and 14, and probably 13 also (though I'm vague on what was 13 and what was 14) and again and some more. Because of course Sam has to be all angry and bitchy rather than hurt but reasonable and sympathetic. It's likely going to end up being another season 9 "The Purge" scenario where Sam ends up being proven wrong and looking like the bad guy for ever having questioned and being angry at Dean. Sam will have to learn that he was too harsh with Dean and learn that Dean was only doing it for Sam's own good somehow or that Sam would've done the same thing.

There was nothing sympathetic to Sam that I saw in that final scene of this last episode. His reactions were way over the top and out of proportion (similar to "The Purge), so it looks to me to be set up for Sam to be in the wrong again. Just like he will probably have to go through the umpteenth revelation that hunting is really what he wants to do ...except that no one did that as well or as convincingly for me as Kripke and Gamble did. These Carver and Dabb attempts to resurrect and repurpose that plot point are just pale attempts and are usually peppered with some sort message of how Sam was wrong to ever consider normal for whatever reason. The plot made sense in season 5 when Sam was trying to make up for his mistakes and in season 7 where helping people gave Sam a direction he needed to ground him and make him feel like he had a purpose in his life, but these current iterations just serve to make Sam look bad or selfish or like he has these flights of fancy and longings for things he shouldn't want anyway, because Sam wanting normal just ends badly, and why can't he just be content with selflessly helping people like Dean.

It's tiresome, and I'm not looking forward to yet another Sam was wrong to ever question Dean and/or Sam screws up scenario. Like Benny, or Gadreel, or the BMoL, or Lucifer, or Nick, or Jack, or the alternate universe people, or Chuck, and on and on. At this point, I don't even like Sam any more. Carver and Dabb have turned him into a one-note, little brother character who has little relevance except to be the opposite - and wrong - side to Dean's right one. They've done similarly with Castiel, but I don't have as strong feelings about that, since Castiel was generally suspect for me from the beginning and that didn't really change much. And Dean is now some Cassandra-like character who often annoys me, because all of the other characters look badly and their opinions are irrelevant in comparison.

As far as I'm concerned, when I revisit it, this show will be seasons 1-7 and 10 (with a side-eye at the finale) and 11 (minus the last scene), screw the rest (except for the Metatron parts from 8 and 9 and "Everybody Hates Hitler.")

[Aeryn13]

19 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I do.

I think this could just as easily end up another "everyone gets angry at and questions Dean, but in reality Dean is right and everyone else is wrong" scenario like season 8, 9, or 10, or the first half of 11, and then 12, and 14, and probably 13 also (though I'm vague on what was 13 and what was 14) and again and some more. Because of course Sam has to be all angry and bitchy rather than hurt but reasonable and sympathetic. It's likely going to end up being another season 9 "The Purge" scenario where Sam ends up being proven wrong and looking like the bad guy for ever having questioned and being angry at Dean. Sam will have to learn that he was too harsh with Dean and learn that Dean was only doing it for Sam's own good somehow or that Sam would've done the same thing.

There was nothing sympathetic to Sam that I saw in that final scene of this last episode. His reactions were way over the top and out of proportion (similar to "The Purge), so it looks to me to be set up for Sam to be in the wrong again. Just like he will probably have to go through the umpteenth revelation that hunting is really what he wants to do ...except that no one did that as well or as convincingly for me as Kripke and Gamble did. These Carver and Dabb attempts to resurrect and repurpose that plot point are just pale attempts and are usually peppered with some sort message of how Sam was wrong to ever consider normal for whatever reason. The plot made sense in season 5 when Sam was trying to make up for his mistakes and in season 7 where helping people gave Sam a direction he needed to ground him and make him feel like he had a purpose in his life, but these current iterations just serve to make Sam look bad or selfish or like he has these flights of fancy and longings for things he shouldn't want anyway, because Sam wanting normal just ends badly, and why can't he just be content with selflessly helping people like Dean.

It's tiresome, and I'm not looking forward to yet another Sam was wrong to ever question Dean and/or Sam screws up scenario. Like Benny, or Gadreel, or the BMoL, or Lucifer, or Nick, or Jack, or the alternate universe people, or Chuck, and on and on. At this point, I don't even like Sam any more. Carver and Dabb have turned him into a one-note, little brother character who has little relevance except to be the opposite - and wrong - side to Dean's right one. They've done similarly with Castiel, but I don't have as strong feelings about that, since Castiel was generally suspect for me from the beginning and that didn't really change much. And Dean is now some Cassandra-like character who often annoys me, because all of the other characters look badly and their opinions are irrelevant in comparison.

As far as I'm concerned, when I revisit it, this show will be seasons 1-7 and 10 (with a side-eye at the finale) and 11 (minus the last scene), screw the rest (except for the Metatron parts from 8 and 9 and "Everybody Hates Hitler.")

In the Dabb years Sam was only wrong about the BMOL amd that led to him being acknowledged as some great heroic leader. Since then he hasn't been portrayed as wrong about a thing.

Meanwhile Dean was wrong about Mary, i.e. his feelings were wrong and childish. He was wrong about Jack, i.e. being mean to the poor baby. He was wrong about Mary being dead in Seadon 13. He was wrong about being angry with Jack and Cas. He was forever wrong about his feelings and is apparently just a dumb mindless rage machine.

Heck, he was even wrong about wanting to sacrifice himself to stop Michael.

And he is clearly set up to be wrong now. It is obvious Billie is shady in some way and Dean wanting to follow her plan obviously will turn out to be wrong.

There is only 4 episodes left and this is nothing but a pointless mini arc of "Dean is wroooong" but will get nothing of the meaningful heroics.

Ironically, I agree with your assessment of only revisiting the show till the Season 11 Finale, minus the last scene. This is where it stops for me, too. No Horror!Mary and no stupid BMOL arc.

[gonzosgirrl]

@AwesomO4000 you make good points about Sam's behavior. Unfortunately, I don't believe for one minute that what you see is the message writers/showrunners intend you to see. And going by social media, and pretty much every single entertainment review/recap, nobody else is seeing it, either. The sympathies always lie with Sam, regardless of how right or wrong Dean may be. And if you don't think there was intent to portray just how bad poor little Sammy has had it with his big, neanderthal brother, I suggest watching the opening scene of the flashback in this week's episode (even I would hate Dean if I didn't know just how full of shit the writing was), and the end scene as well. There was no attempt to make Sam anything less than the injured party here, again and some more. This is their enduring message. And it sucks.

Oh, and for some extra added fun, Kripke himself tweeted how Sam would have to set his idiot brother straight about who to vote for, since Dean would only be thinking with his dick.

Edited October 24, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[Smad]

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Oh, and for some extra added fun, Kripke himself tweeted how Sam would have to set his idiot brother straight about who to vote for, since Dean would only be thinking with his dick.

Guess Kripke is an idiot himself since the brothers are both legally dead and literally can't vote. And Joe Biden doesn't exist in their world afaik. Plus while Trump has been mentioned before, he's not the president on the show. Too much idiocy in Kripke's tweet and all of it just to get his own political message across.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, Smad said:

Guess Kripke is an idiot himself since the brothers are both legally dead and literally can't vote. And Joe Biden doesn't exist in their world afaik. Plus while Trump has been mentioned before, he's not the president on the show. Too much idiocy in Kripke's tweet and all of it just to get his own political message across.

Well that, and the fact that they are imaginary. Their validity wasn't really the point, nor mine in posting. The fact that he went to the trouble of replying to his own tweet to give Dean a shot, was.

[DeeDee79]

7 minutes ago, Smad said:

Plus while Trump has been mentioned before, he's not the president on the show.

Sure he is! Remember when Sam gave the AU residents a rundown of their world and AU Bobby commented on it?

BOBBY

Let me get this right -- the ice caps are melting, a movie where a girl goes all the way with a fish...wins Best Picture, and that damn fool idjit from The Apprentice is president?

Edited October 24, 2020 by DeeDee79

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

Sure he is! Remember when Sam gave the AU residents a rundown of their world and AU Bobby commented on it?

Yep, just one example of the shitty, canon-busting writing. One thing this show would've benefited from over the last how-many years is a writer's room, or at the least, a show bible.

[Aeryn13]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Well that, and the fact that they are imaginary. Their validity wasn't really the point, nor mine in posting. The fact that he went to the trouble of replying to his own tweet to give Dean a shot, was.

After being called out on it, he made another tweet. 

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

After being called out on it, he made another tweet. 

I just read it. That is the weirdest bit of backpedaling, LOL. Shades of his 'apology' for calling Dean a dick, hmmm?

[Smad]

10 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Sure he is! Remember when Sam gave the AU residents a rundown of their world and AU Bobby commented on it?

BOBBY

Let me get this right -- the ice caps are melting, a movie where a girl goes all the way with a fish...wins Best Picture, and that damn fool idjit from The Apprentice is president?

Trump wasn't president in 14x20 if I remember correctly. Wasn't that someone named Hayes or something?

[DeeDee79]

4 minutes ago, Smad said:

Trump wasn't president in 14x20 if I remember correctly. Wasn't that someone named Hayes or something?

I honestly don't know. Season 13 is the last one that I watched straight through. I gave up midway through 14.

[Aeryn13]

11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I just read it. That is the weirdest bit of backpedaling, LOL. Shades of his 'apology' for calling Dean a dick, hmmm?

Haha, I literally thought the same thing when I read it.

[Myrelle]

5 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I honestly don't know. Season 13 is the last one that I watched straight through. I gave up midway through 14.

I'm glad for you, DEEDEE.

I wish I'd had the strength. 

The hatchet job that they're doing on Dean right now is the worst I've ever seen.

 

Edited October 24, 2020 by Myrelle
Revision

[Smad]

9 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I honestly don't know. Season 13 is the last one that I watched straight through. I gave up midway through 14.

I looked it up and guess I was wrong. Could have sworn it wasn't Trump.

Newscaster: In what was supposed to be a speech on farming subsidies, the President instead spent more than two hours disclosing his entire tax history, deep ties to Russia and North Korea, and a "demon deal" he made with someone named Crowley.
 

So freaking cringe. Just like Kripke's tweet.

[Aeryn13]

11 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I'm glad for you, DEEDEE.

I wish I'd had the strength. 

The hatchet job that they're doing on Dean right now is the worst I've ever seen.

 

While this random "he is so meaaaan" (for wanting to put the world over one annoying little Purity Gary Stu) and "he is such a rage monster" handwringing is actually rage-inducing and annoying, especially 5 minutes to midnight in terms of the show, I do honestly still think the times of Valium!Stepford!Dean who apparently had no opinion, will, drive or anything to him and meekly nodded along with whatever or Nursemaid!Dean from the second half of Season 8 was worse to me. 

I need to respect a character. And those things, I couldn`t really respect. Now, the writers can put in their chorus of how meeean Dean is and poor Jackie-poo and poor Sam and poor Cas who are all innocent babies, blablibbety bla but I can respect the character of Dean. And he has life to him.       

[Myrelle]

26 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

While this random "he is so meaaaan" (for wanting to put the world over one annoying little Purity Gary Stu) and "he is such a rage monster" handwringing is actually rage-inducing and annoying, especially 5 minutes to midnight in terms of the show, I do honestly still think the times of Valium!Stepford!Dean who apparently had no opinion, will, drive or anything to him and meekly nodded along with whatever or Nursemaid!Dean from the second half of Season 8 was worse to me. 

I need to respect a character. And those things, I couldn`t really respect. Now, the writers can put in their chorus of how meeean Dean is and poor Jackie-poo and poor Sam and poor Cas who are all innocent babies, blablibbety bla but I can respect the character of Dean. And he has life to him.       

ITA with you, but the concerted effort that this entire writing team is putting into making Dean the "bad guy" in the Jackiepoo storyline(except when they have him making him a birthday cake, of course 🙄), is like nothing I've seen before-and this on the heels of Dean being so MEEN! to poor woobie cAsstiel(who has never done anything wrong, dontchaknow 🙄🙄) leaves nothing but more apologizing and groveling in his future, from what I can see.

Well, maybe standing on the sidelines and cheering on everyone else in the big fight again, too-after he's done groveling, that is.

I'm literally wishing that they will just kill the character off simply to release him for good from the writing of this story, but then who would they have to cry so well over all the true heroes of the story. 

I really hope that that's not all that these bozos will give him, but I also feel like I have to be prepared for it and thinking on it makes me want to barf.

I just want it to be over with now and, sadly, that feels like the only light at the end of the tunnel for me.

Four more episodes...😟

Edited October 24, 2020 by Myrelle
Revision