“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[FlickChick]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This may be the saddest, and sadly, most accurate, thing I've read regarding Dabb, Dean and the series ending. It hurts me. And honestly, I think maybe Jensen has resigned himself to it after the puppet fight and the debacle that was the Michael/Dean arc. I believe he's the one who pulled the plug (no matter what the party line is) and he's just going to be that team player til the bitter end and let them do what they will. I won't kid myself that I won't watch this final season, but I am 100% sure that when it's all over, *my* Supernatural will end with S11. That's the last Blu-Ray I bought and I'll just consider it a done deal.

I have to say that these last posts have brought tears to my eyes. I don't read spoilers, but just reading these generalizations, makes me more sad than I can say. My favorite character of all time and the actor who plays him, being denigrated for these last few seasons and now it sounds as if a final screw Dean final season is in store for me and all those who love the character as I do. And like you, the last DVD I have is S11 because that really (with the exception of very few episodes) is the last time I saw "my Dean Winchester" as he should be portrayed. My heart is heavy as I look to this final season that starts tomorrow. So, so sad...

[BlueSapphire]

The characters were FUBAR’ed on this show years ago.  This show has been pretty much on life support for the same amount of time.  I’ve only stuck around for J2, their friendship, and I’m only watching because it’s the last season (started in season 2).

[Smad]

3 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Yeah, this is pretty sad, but I'll probably just choose to ignore the Dabb years entirely after this show has ended.

I will just pretend that it ended with God and Darkness going off to fix their relationship while also talking over how to fix the universe(s). And when God took out the soul bomb he gave Dean some actual powers to make him a true protector of the Earth, like he said Dean was. Mary wasn't really resurrected, that was just Dean's new powers activating (he went to heaven, created a pocket universe like angels used to and imagined her there or something along those lines) because he has some issues to work out.

[gonzosgirrl]

It's gonna be a long season of spoiler boxes. Sigh.

Spoiler

So, OG Michael is out of the cage and they anvilled that he might be a tad resentful. I'd be excited about that only Jake Abel is also back and wasn't there some oblique hint about "double the fun" with him? So Dean/Jensen is gonna get screwed out of that story for a third  time.

. I'd laugh if I didn't want to cry. 

[Aeryn13]

17 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It's gonna be a long season of spoiler boxes. Sigh.

  Hide contents

So, OG Michael is out of the cage and they anvilled that he might be a tad resentful. I'd be excited about that only Jake Abel is also back and wasn't there some oblique hint about "double the fun" with him? So Dean/Jensen is gonna get screwed out of that story for a third  time.

. I'd laugh if I didn't want to cry. 

Spoiler

It's in the shaving/punting vid. Jake Abel sits opposite himself in a diner. This will have nothing to do with Dean. 

[gonzosgirrl]

29 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Not thrilled with Dean being relegated to demon babysitter, and I hope this doesent start a pattern of Dean being stuck in the background all season long. But hey, they did mention his time in Hell, which we hardly ever hear about, so thats something. Someone writing this episode DID actually watch previous seasons!

I don't know if Dabb is just a poor storyteller, if he's just dumb, or if he's subversively sly and giving the big middle finger to Dean fans. My money is on the latter though, since we know he can write a decent script when he tries. Or at least he could in his pre-showrunner days.

Thus I find it hard to believe he's not intentionally poking the bear, addressing two of the Dean fan's biggest gripes in such backhanded ways. First, Dean's time in hell, but highlighting how very good he was at torture, not how strong/long he resisted Hell's worst. Then he acknowledges how gorgeous Dean is - but the speaker is a male demon. And all the while he's relegated to caretaker, gathering ingredients for the Deus Ex Machina to save the day while Cas and Sam fight the battle.

Even his righteous anger and perfectly sane desire to lock up and/or end Jack was undermined by having him utter the ridiculous 'he didn't deserve this' line, which has the added effect of making him the bad guy in retrospect, and his lingering anger toward Cas seem petty (since he's okay with their 'kinda-kid', why stay mad at Castiel?).

Edited October 11, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[Aeryn13]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Thus I find it hard to believe he's not intentionally poking the bear, addressing two of the Dean fan's biggest gripes in such backhanded ways. First, Dean's time in hell, but highlighting how very good he was at torture, not how strong/long he resisted Hell's worst. Then he acknowledges how gorgeous Dean is - but the speaker is a male demon. And all the while he's relegated to caretaker, gathering ingredients for the Deus Ex Machina to save the day.

I think the hell mention was definitely a backhanded dig at the character. Because it connects Dean to all the obvious monsters, well demons, out and about killing. And Dean didn`t get a scene saving a civilian, caring for them and bonding with them, he didn`t get any markers of a heroic scene. No, he was grouped with the demon.   

[Smad]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Because it connects Dean to all the obvious monsters, well demons, out and about killing.

I don't mind that. Because unlike Dabb and the rest of his brainlesstrust, I remember what Hell is for. Those were souls of people who were so terrible in life they didn't deserve to go to heaven. From murderers to abusers to crossroads demon deal makers. Sure some souls didn't deserve to be there (like Dean or Bobby) but those were very rare and special circumstances. So Dean tortured the souls of the scum of humanity...big whoop. He feels bad about having enjoyed it and I can understand that. But everyone in Hell becomes a demon. That's what Hell is for, see Dean himself for example.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Smad said:

I don't mind that. Because unlike Dabb and the rest of his brainlesstrust, I remember what Hell is for. Those were souls of people who were so terrible in life they didn't deserve to go to heaven. From murderers to abusers to crossroads demon deal makers. Sure some souls didn't deserve to be there (like Dean or Bobby) but those were very rare and special circumstances. So Dean tortured the souls of the scum of humanity...big whoop. He feels bad about having enjoyed it and I can understand that. But everyone in Hell becomes a demon. That's what Hell is for, see Dean himself for example.

I agree with all of this and it's how I always saw Dean's experience. I think that's what Kripke intended (IMO) as well, that we'd see it this way, while Dean felt nothing but guilt and remorse. If I thought for one minute that was Dabb's intention now, I wouldn't bat an eyelash at that scene, but I don't - not even a little bit.

[PAForrest]

1 hour ago, Smad said:

I don't mind that. Because unlike Dabb and the rest of his brainlesstrust, I remember what Hell is for. Those were souls of people who were so terrible in life they didn't deserve to go to heaven. From murderers to abusers to crossroads demon deal makers. Sure some souls didn't deserve to be there (like Dean or Bobby) but those were very rare and special circumstances. So Dean tortured the souls of the scum of humanity...big whoop. He feels bad about having enjoyed it and I can understand that. But everyone in Hell becomes a demon. That's what Hell is for, see Dean himself for example.

Exactly this. Dabb and Singer might not want to remember what Kripke's Hell was originally supposed to be, but long-time fans haven't forgotten. I don't really give a damn what Dabb's intention was with this scene, but it fails miserably if he thinks it was going to make the audience turn on Dean. Didn't before, won't now.

Personally I saw this and Demon Jack-Adjacent's quip about Dean's good looks to be servicing for Dean fans. Dabb et. al. get a lot of complaints about the many times they stupidly have some guest star act like Dean looks like the Hunchback of Notre Dame and not exactly like Jensen Ackles. And another constant complaint over the many years has been how they ignore Dean's time in Hell as if it never happened.

So I feel like Dabb wrote both those into this one episode as a hand-wave to Dean fans - like, fine, you got your mentions, now don't bother me again.

Edited October 12, 2019 by PAForrest

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Back and to the Future" thread:

6 hours ago, ahrtee said:

That's not to mention why (as others said) the ghosts had to run instead of just "apparating" or Sam's terrible fighting skills.  

I answered the ghost question to the best of my (limited) ability over in the episode thread.

As for Sam, the current batch of writers took away Sam's fighting skills for good about the same time they made sure everyone died under Sam's watch. I mean last season Sam got beaten to death by a human Nick of all people.

Remember in the good old days when Sam was a skilled enough fighter that he could take out two SWAT guys ("Nightshifter")? Because the current set of writers sure don't seem to. They couldn't even remember that Sam was the one who figured out how to defeat the Woman in White, so why would they remember he could fight?

[ILoveReading]

I just posted an interview in the bitter spoilers section.

This isn't a spoiler because there is literally nothing to spoil.  There wasn't a single question about Dean.

Dabb even talked to Alex about his new character.  Remember when Jensen asked for help last year and Dabb completely blew him off.

The level of disrespect shown to Dean/Jensen lately is why no one will ever convince me that Jensen was a big reason the plug was pulled on this show.

[gonzosgirrl]

11 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The level of disrespect shown to Dean/Jensen lately is why no one will ever convince me that Jensen was a big reason the plug was pulled on this show.

Me either. Never. Not even Jensen saying differently (publicly) would convince me.

That interview makes me similtaneously cringe and shake my head. If they tried, they couldn't have chosen a worse person to be the public face of Supernatural 'show running'. He has no clue how to build interest - either outright lying about what will happen, or giving away the *plot entirely. His disrespect for Dean/Jensen and his fans is just the tip of a large, disgusting iceberg.

*I use the term plot extremely loosely.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Me either. Never. Not even Jensen saying differently (publicly) would convince me.

That interview makes me similtaneously cringe and shake my head. If they tried, they couldn't have chosen a worse person to be the public face of Supernatural 'show running'. He has no clue how to build interest - either outright lying about what will happen, or giving away the *plot entirely. His disrespect for Dean/Jensen and his fans is just the tip of a large, disgusting iceberg.

*I use the term plot extremely loosely.

Yup, everything people were speculating about Dabb spoiled.  (not that I thought they'd go any other way.  Dabb would have to actually think about something for more than 30 seconds.  He's so lazy). 

I remember Jensen talking about something.  He teased enough to make people speculate and guess  Dabb just spoils anything.

Its sad that he's in charge of the shows legacy.

[Myrelle]

23 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I just posted an interview in the bitter spoilers section.

This isn't a spoiler because there is literally nothing to spoil.  There wasn't a single question about Dean.

Dabb even talked to Alex about his new character.  Remember when Jensen asked for help last year and Dabb completely blew him off.

The level of disrespect shown to Dean/Jensen lately is why no one will ever convince me that Jensen was a big reason the plug was pulled on this show.

Did we ever find out for sure who that blind item was last year?-because if Ausiello himself never told then I will forever be convinced it was Jensen.

In my mind, the second he saw where the Dean/Michael storyline was going (nowhere), he was done with Dabb and co. 

Dabb just doesn't want to write for the character and the actor, IMO; and of the cast, Jensen was likely the only one who has or ever had a problem with that(many of his fans have had a problem with it since s12,  however).

I'm so glad it's ending, but I do have a very bad feeling that I'm going to wish with all my heart that Jensen had left after s14.

Edited October 17, 2019 by Myrelle
Revision

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I'm so glad it's ending, but I do have a very bad feeling that I'm going to wish with all my heart that Jensen had left after s14.

I felt this way after Moriah and Dabb invalidating 14 years of storyline so he can let his Pet Sue off the hook for killing Mary.

[gonzosgirrl]

17 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Did we ever find out for sure who that blind item was last year?-because if Ausiello himself never told then I will forever be convinced it was Jensen.

In my mind, the second he saw where the Dean/Michael storyline was going (nowhere), he was done with Dabb and co. 

Heh. Well I asked them on the Tweet. I don't expect an answer but oh how I would love to know.

[Aeryn13]

Expectedly nothing about Dean because the idiot interviewer needed to know a thousand things about demon!Jack.

Well, at least Dabb spoils everything now. I hated when he undercut any spec about Michael last Season as soon as an episode aired. So it's only fair he is doing it to everyone else also.

But yes, apparently he does talk to every other actor about their character, just not Jensen. I wasn't happy with Kripke's Sam-mytharc focus but at the very least the man always came across as having the utmost respect for Jensen.

[Myrelle]

Dean is going to go out simply as the all supportive cheerleader and main cape holder for both Jack and Sam, IMO.

The writing is on the wall for it and that interview only reinforced that feeling in me.

I never thought I'd see the day when I  would hate watch this show, but sadly, it's  here.

I just hope that in his next project Jensen will land in a place with writers who actually want to write for him.

Words cannot express how much I also hate and despise Dabb after this most recent interview of his. Dean Who? Jensen Who?-yet again!!

ARGH!!!!!!

*back to my mantra now*

One. More. Year.

That's all. One more. 😓

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Dean is going to go out simply as the all supportive cheerleader and main cape holder for both Jack and Sam, IMO.

I'm not even sure he'll get that.

Spoiler

I managed to get a copy of the tv guide magazine and that part about ep 7 that we couldn't read said "In an effort to get his mojo back, Dean heads out for a night on the town and runs into a hunter buddy.   So it sounds like Sam is the cheerleader/leader along with everything else.

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Maybe Sam and Dean are Chuck drafts and Jack is the new and improved version.  😲

(Sorry to quote myself but I want to continue the thought and it's way too BvJ)

How about this:  Kripke was God/Chuck and he left in season 5 and didn't come back but instead moved on to create other worlds.  Others (like Zachariah and Uriel/Gamble and Carver) tried to take over and couldn't manage it; so Dabb (evil Michael), furious that Sam and Dean refuse to be what he wants them to be (ie, insignificant to the story), now wants to burn down Kripke's whole world and remake it in his own image (pretending to be Chuck.)  

Makes sense (unfortunately.)  Maybe Dabb is actually *too* involved in the story/characters (and taking it way too personally) instead of not enough.  😀

[Myrelle]

31 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I'm not even sure he'll get that.

  Reveal spoiler

I managed to get a copy of the tv guide magazine and that part about ep 7 that we couldn't read said "In an effort to get his mojo back, Dean heads out for a night on the town and runs into a hunter buddy.   So it sounds like Sam is the cheerleader/leader along with everything else.

Spoiler

Sam will only have to be a cheerleader for Dean until its time for the real, series-ending heroics- that's when they will  "switch roles" again-because we've never gotten that before dontchaknow<insert serious sarcasm here>-especially in a swan song type of episode. 🙄

[Aeryn13]

I think it will come down to picking out a previous episode as one`s official ending and relegating the rest of it to bad fanfic.

The Season 11 Finale was ill-paced and not remotely as epic and/or touching as it could have been but it could be a serviceable ending. Just ignore the BritMOL teaser.

Regarding Dean could be an "open" ending. 

I have very little hope that the Season 15 Finale will make it worth it for Dean-fans. They wouldn`t even write for the character last Season when he had a mytharc, they will never do it now when he doesn`t.  

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think it will come down to picking out a previous episode as one`s official ending and relegating the rest of it to bad fanfic.

The Season 11 Finale was ill-paced and not remotely as epic and/or touching as it could have been but it could be a serviceable ending. Just ignore the BritMOL teaser.

Regarding Dean could be an "open" ending. 

I have very little hope that the Season 15 Finale will make it worth it for Dean-fans. They wouldn`t even write for the character last Season when he had a mytharc, they will never do it now when he doesn`t.  

This is where it ends for me. Perhaps I'll view the odd episode from the last 4* seasons, such as Regarding Dean, or Nihilism, as 'lost episodes' or little self-contained tv movies.

(*assuming there is anything re-watchable this season)

[Aeryn13]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This is where it ends for me. Perhaps I'll view the odd episode from the last 4* seasons, such as Regarding Dean, or Nihilism, as 'lost episodes' or little self-contained tv movies.

(*assuming there is anything re-watchable this season)

It`s ironic that after nearly 15 years I don`t think any Season Finale was as good as the first one. It could have served as a Series Finale. A really mean one and we would have lost a lot of good things to come but it was the most competently-written Season Finale of the show IMO.  

[Katy M]

22 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

It`s ironic that after nearly 15 years I don`t think any Season Finale was as good as the first one. It could have served as a Series Finale. A really mean one and we would have lost a lot of good things to come but it was the most competently-written Season Finale of the show IMO.  

That's actually funny.  Up until season 7, Season 1 was my least fave finale.  Not saying I didn't love it, but I thought up to that point all the finales were amazing.  Even now, I prefer Sacrifice and All Along the Watchtower.

[Aeryn13]

34 minutes ago, Katy M said:

That's actually funny.  Up until season 7, Season 1 was my least fave finale.  Not saying I didn't love it, but I thought up to that point all the finales were amazing.  Even now, I prefer Sacrifice and All Along the Watchtower.

Haha, different things for different folks.  😄

Apart from the Season 5 Finale which I loathe with a passion - I hope it doesn`t get "surpassed" in that by the Season 15 Finale - the others I regard with various shades of "boring", "infuriating", "disappointing", "okay-ish". Nothing amazing, though.

[gonzosgirrl]

I know I've said it before, but I'll go on record as not hating Swan Song. In fact, when I watched it the first time, I said to a friend who I was coercing into watching at the time, that I felt that if it ended there (less the very last scene of Soulless Sam standing in the street), I would have felt that I'd been told a complete and satisfying story. I still believe that. Now the caveat: I watched it completely unspoiled and without any input from fandom, knowing nothing other than the premise of the show. So at that point, I didn't know anything had been changed, or writer's intentions, or agendas, etc. I was a Dean girl from 'Easy, Tiger' but I still liked Sam and I loved the brotherhood. Yes, Sam was a giant douche to Dean in S4, but that was part of the story (the demon blood) and I enjoyed that story. It wasn't until later that I felt the BvJ kick in, when the writing, (IMO), beginning with Sera, took a distinct turn towards the Sam-centric and the dismantling of Dean Winchester began. There was some good-to-great stuff in seasons 6 - 10, but things started going sideways in S11 (and I believe Dabb had influence when Carver mentally checked out half way through), and then went completely and irretrievably off the rails in the Dabb era. He has screwed Dean (and more worse, Jensen,) at every turn and I honestly can't envision an ending good enough to redeem Dabb, or the show, in my eyes.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Haha, different things for different folks.  😄

Yep.  And that's kind of the beauty of this show.  We all have different parts of it we love, so there must be something in it for everyone.

[Aeryn13]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

Yep.  And that's kind of the beauty of this show.  We all have different parts of it we love, so there must be something in it for everyone.

Not so much for me anymore in Dabbernatural. I find that guy by far the worst showrunner ever.

[ILoveReading]

So Dabb did lie about Dean being the one to believe in free will at comic con.

*Pretends to be shocked.

[AwesomO4000]

9 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I know I've said it before, but I'll go on record as not hating Swan Song. In fact, when I watched it the first time, I said to a friend who I was coercing into watching at the time, that I felt that if it ended there (less the very last scene of Soulless Sam standing in the street), I would have felt that I'd been told a complete and satisfying story. I still believe that. Now the caveat: I watched it completely unspoiled and without any input from fandom, knowing nothing other than the premise of the show. So at that point, I didn't know anything had been changed, or writer's intentions, or agendas, etc. I was a Dean girl from 'Easy, Tiger' but I still liked Sam and I loved the brotherhood. Yes, Sam was a giant douche to Dean in S4, but that was part of the story (the demon blood) and I enjoyed that story. It wasn't until later that I felt the BvJ kick in, when the writing, (IMO), beginning with Sera, took a distinct turn towards the Sam-centric and the dismantling of Dean Winchester began. There was some good-to-great stuff in seasons 6 - 10, but things started going sideways in S11 (and I believe Dabb had influence when Carver mentally checked out half way through), and then went completely and irretrievably off the rails in the Dabb era. He has screwed Dean (and more worse, Jensen,) at every turn and I honestly can't envision an ending good enough to redeem Dabb, or the show, in my eyes.

You had me nodding in serious agreement with most of this (except me being more of a Samgirl than a Dean one) up until Gamble. She may have done the Dean domestic thing for a while, but I actually liked that the brothers got along and listened to and compromised for each other under her watch. Dean got appreciation from Sam and Bobby - in actual text - and it was obvious how much both needed him (Dean was Sam's "stone # 1" after all.) It was my favorite time in the brother relationship. And despite the season 6 start, I thought Dean did get to end well, what with saving Sam and killing Dick Roman. Dean in purgatory could've been great, so a great send off in my opinion.

I can see where Deangirls might have gotten a bit tired of depressed Dean, but the BvsJ wasn't literal at least - in that Sam and Dean did actually get along rather well throughout season 6B and season 7 and they seemed like actual partners and equals in the relationship - so I don't know.

For me, season 8 was a whole new kettle of fish where Carver threw everything out the window and decided he knew best, trashing the brothers' relationship for no good reason that I could see and starting the real B vs J in earnest. That was when things really got nasty, in my opinion, and the fans started disagreeing the most.

So I don't know. Sera may have preferred Sam, but I thought she didn't do too badly by Dean (except for the Lisa fiasco at the end - I'll admit that wasn't nice.) But Carver on the other hand entirely trashed Sam in my opinion - I think Deanfans would have been incensed, for example, if Sera had decided that Dean just enjoyed his life with Lisa and never even tried to find Sam at all. It would have been ludicrous, as in my opinion Carver's Amelia arc was. Maybe not to the same degree, because Sam was in hell, but it was throwing out the entire feeling*** / dynamic of the show. And I might have believed there was some purpose behind it towards the brothers being more "mature" and "independent" if not for super awesome, loyal, best brother ever, Benny coming along to show Sam (and Dean) how they should be more codependent than ever. And since Carver wrote "Sacrifice" the way he did - with Sam giving up on saving the world because all Sam really wanted was Dean's approval, and Dean giving up on it because as long as he had Sam's desire for approval, he was good with that - that's the total opposite of not codependent. Except now not only were Sam and Dean codependent, but they were also at odds much of the time. The epitome of B vs J in my opinion.

I'll admit that Dabb is pretty bad - and as enamored with his own new, shiny characters as Carver ever was - but I never really saw Sera as straying that far from Kripke's original vision as Dabb or Carver. In her reign the brothers got along and they were partners, supporting and defending each other against common enemies. Under Carver, Sam and Dean were often made to be each other's enemies, and for me that's where most of the B vs J began.

I also don't see Sera's seasons as being entirely Sam-centric either. I agree the Lisa storyline was a bit lame in comparison to Sam's soulless storyline, but it wasn't Amelia levels of lame. At least it tied into the main storyline somewhat. And Dean did actively save Sam in a supernatural way and the Dick Roman storyline was Dean's - with awesome Frank as his wing man. Compare that to the Gadreel storyline where Sam was relegated to damsel in distress who constantly had to be saved by awesome Gadreel or to bitchy ungrateful brother who would learn the error of his ways and how to appreciate his body-hijacker "friend" Gadreel as Gadreel helped to save the day. In my opinion that was quite a bit worse in terms of bias... I can't necessarily call it entirely Dean-centric though, because Carver sure did like to have his own original characters save the day a lot.

Pretty much like Dabb now. ...So I kind of draw a line down the middle at season 7 as to where for me it all started to fall apart a bit. (Though I did really like much of season 10 and loved almost all of season 11 ...I have so much hate for season 8 and 9, though, that that was hard to get past. It's kind of telling that my favorite thing about those seasons was the Metatron storyline - how sad is that?)

*** They'd recently had "Time After Time..." for example, so Sam not looking for Dean - with more actual evidence of where Dean was than "Time..." - seemed ludicrous. But then if Sam had looked for Dean even a little, then Carver couldn't have had his B vs J and angst fest and his Benny, the super awesome better brother. Bah humbug.

[AwesomO4000]

13 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

Even though my binge watches always lose traction around 8, and there are many eps from 8 through 11 that i skip nearly every time, funnily enough, probably actually for many similar reasons to @AwesomO4000 but seen through a Dean stan lens if you boil it down.

Actually, I don't disagree with you here on the Dean front either.

I haven't been particularly shy in the past about calling Carver out for being unkind to Dean's character, too, in order to further his Benny the awesomest little vampire agenda. I'll be one of the first to say "out of character" to Carver having Dean just drop Benny like a hot potato. Dean, in my opinion, is loyal, so that made close to zero sense to me... especially contrasted against Dean showing his loyalty to Castiel by not leaving him behind.

And that's not even counting how Carver turned Dean into the biggest whiny doormat ever - which um, hell no*** - rather than have Dean stick up for himself or at the very least have him check to see if that pod person Carver turned Sam into wasn't some sort of ...well, pod person at the very least. I don't care how many mytharcs Carver gave Dean. That's no excuse for character assassination. And by the time poor, abused Benny who'd already lost everything had to make the ultimate sacrifice for mean old, not-appreciative enough Dean, I was rolling my eyes with the Benny woobiedom and wanting to know why Carver was turning the heroic characters I loved into selfish, self-absorbed jerks.

So yeah - plenty of indignation on Dean's part from me under Carver also. I just happened to focus on Sam that time.

*** Did Carver not watch any of season 6 and 7, especially "The Mentalists," before taking over as showrunner? I  mean yes, the "save Sam" was still strong with Dean in those seasons, but the let Sam (or Castiel for that matter) walk all over me - even with a crazy Sam and crazy Castiel and Dean in depression - was not. Like at all. And purgatory should have made Dean even more self-confident, not less.

[Aeryn13]

7 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Actually, I don't disagree with you here on the Dean front either.

I haven't been particularly shy in the past about calling Carver out for being unkind to Dean's character, too, in order to further his Benny the awesomest little vampire agenda. I'll be one of the first to say "out of character" to Carver having Dean just drop Benny like a hot potato. Dean, in my opinion, is loyal, so that made close to zero sense to me... especially contrasted against Dean showing his loyalty to Castiel by not leaving him behind.

And that's not even counting how Carver turned Dean into the biggest whiny doormat ever - which um, hell no*** - rather than have Dean stick up for himself or at the very least have him check to see if that pod person Carver turned Sam into wasn't some sort of ...well, pod person at the very least. I don't care how many mytharcs Carver gave Dean. That's no excuse for character assassination. And by the time poor, abused Benny who'd already lost everything had to make the ultimate sacrifice for mean old, not-appreciative enough Dean, I was rolling my eyes with the Benny woobiedom and wanting to know why Carver was turning the heroic characters I loved into selfish, self-absorbed jerks.

So yeah - plenty of indignation on Dean's part from me under Carver also. I just happened to focus on Sam that time.

*** Did Carver not watch any of season 6 and 7, especially "The Mentalists," before taking over as showrunner? I  mean yes, the "save Sam" was still strong with Dean in those seasons, but the let Sam (or Castiel for that matter) walk all over me - even with a crazy Sam and crazy Castiel and Dean in depression - was not. Like at all. And purgatory should have made Dean even more self-confident, not less.

I think Carver wasn't the best to Dean either though at least he gave him stories that actually stayed. But Dabb is almost gleefully destroying every thing that made Dean Dean.

With the current mytharc development I have zero hope that Dean will play a valid role in the Series Finale. Whereas I actually do think there is a good chance Sam ascends to being God and benevolently ruling over the universe. I wouldn't put it past Dabb.

[AwesomO4000]

22 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Sam ascends to being God and benevolently ruling over the universe. I wouldn't put it past Dabb.

Is that before or after any of the angels left somehow get killed under Sam's watch?

I'm guessing it's before. Sam will have had good intentions of course, but Dabb can't seem to let Sam do anything right so why would ruling the universe be any different.

Which will then lead to heaven imploding or whatever it was supposedly supposed to do if the angels died.

We can have a "Cabin in the Woods" ending. Yay?

Edited October 18, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

12 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Is that before or after any of the angels left somehow get killed under Sam's watch?

It would be in the Series Finale where he single-handedly saves the day and then ascends, with the obvious tell how perfect he is for it. 

There are a lot of people having that exact same spec on tumblr - noone even bothers to pretend to come up with an "alibi story" for Dean anymore. The show makes that very easy.

So you wouldn't object to making Sam God either, provided he is perfect at it?

Edited October 18, 2019 by Aeryn13

[AwesomO4000]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

It would be in the Series Finale where he single-handedly saves the day and then ascends, with the obvious tell how perfect he is for it. 

But since when does the "tell" ever pan out?

I think my above edited for completeness scenario is just as plausible. Dabb can say he thinks Sam is perfect all he wants. I'm not going to believe it if what he shows me is the exact opposite of that, and Dabb can't seem to show Sam as good at anything - except maybe starting apocalypses.

I can't think of one major thing Sam has done right since Dabb took over myself.

[Aeryn13]

3 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But since when does the "tell" ever pan out?

I think my above edited for completeness scenario is just as plausible. Dabb can say he thinks Sam is perfect all he wants. I'm not going to believe it if what he shows me is the exact opposite of that, and Dabb can't seem to show Sam as good at anything - except maybe starting apocalypses.

I can't think of one major thing Sam has done right since Dabb took over myself.

It's still a 100 % Dean-who scenario. I mean, what would he be there for if God-Sam took out Chuck? Polishing the throne? Or just be killed off in a random one-off episode earlier because why pretend any longer?

Dean is my obvious favourite but I would object to him ascending to God on principle. That would be the most ridiculous Mary Sue ego trip writing ever. No matter what they made Chuck into.

Edited October 18, 2019 by Aeryn13

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

It's still a 100 % Dean-who scenario. I mean, what would he be there for if God-Sam took out Chuck? Polishing the throne? Or just be killed off in a random one-off episode earlier because why pretend any longer?

Chuck can't die or the sun will die.  Neither Sam or Dean will do anything.  This will be a repeat of Season 11, except this time, maybe Sam will start off the talk, but Amara will talk Chuck down.  

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

So you wouldn't object to making Sam God either, provided he is perfect at it?

No, I wouldn't want that, but I don't think it's even possible that that would even be an option. It's been more than 9 seasons since Sam's really done anything major right rather than screwing up royally, so why would this change now?

And not even that one thing right started out that way. Sam actually first screwed up royally. It was Dean's determination that brought him to the cemetery to even give Sam the chance to have a win. Whether you object to Dean's role or think anyone could have driven the car there, the indisputable fact as shown onscreen was that that was necessary for Sam to have broken out, meaning that if the Impala doesn't show up, then Sam fails. So it was dumb luck more than anything Sam did on his own. I was okay with that at that point. The subsequent tearing Sam down by Carver and Dabb, however, where Sam almost always messes up and is almost always wrong - and in his end of last season DVD wrap up interview Dabb said specifically that the Jack scenario was set up so that Sam would be wrong... this was not an accident or an afterthought - has annoyed me to this.

Nothing Dab has shown me onscreen would lead me to believe he'd have Sam be God in any way - unless he was going to have Sam fail at it, much like he had Sam be a "leader" and then fail at it. Under Dabb, Sam can't even avoid getting killed by a human Nick or having to be saved by Castiel from a simple ghost. Why would I even think Dabb would let Sam be a good god?

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean is my obvious favourite but I would object to him ascending to God on principle. That would be the most ridiculous Mary Sue ego trip writing ever. No matter what they made Chuck into.

They may not make Dean God, but Dean is almost always right. About almost everything. In my opinion, "Dean has good instincts" only goes so far. After a while, it becomes House levels of annoying. In my opinion anyway. It's not that I want Dean to be wrong. I just don't want Sam and Castiel to always have to be really, really wrong at the same time that Dean is right. Can't they both or all be a little bit right? What happened to there are multiple ways to look at a situation? Why does it mostly seem to be that one way is right while the other is the consequences cause apocalyptic repercussions levels of wrong? That's kind of annoying in my opinion.

[Katy M]

45 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

No, I wouldn't want that, but I don't think it's even possible that that would even be an option. It's been more than 9 seasons since Sam's really done anything major right rather than screwing up royally, so why would this change now?

He took out the entire British Men of Letters at the end of season 12, which is way less than 6 seasons, I would call it major, and nothing was screwed up.

[AwesomO4000]

16 minutes ago, Katy M said:

He took out the entire British Men of Letters at the end of season 12, which is way less than 6 seasons, I would call it major, and nothing was screwed up.

The following is my opinion on this and why I don't count it as a major win. I get that others' opinions are going to vary here, but for me this just wasn't a much of a win...

Sam didn't really take out the BMoL, imo. He had to beg the other hunters left to overlook the fact that he joined the BMoL (entirely and asininely out of character in my opinion, but nonetheless Dabb had Sam do it) and entirely screwed up, but please please ignore that I'm an idiot and go with me to help get rid of them ...as if the hunters wouldn't have done that anyway or as if there was any other choice really.

And even then it was badass Jody who took out the big bad of the hour, not Sam.

I'm not one of those people who thought that Sam heading the charge to get rid of the BMoL was a positive thing. For me it was mostly an excuse to have Sam have to admit how wrong he was in front of a bunch of people and then have to ask them to please help him fix things anyway. After the hunters asked hopefully if Dean would be going with them but then had to settle for Sam.

And I don't know about nothing getting screwed up. Some of the hunters were killed, so it wasn't exactly a grand slam for me. Though I suppose after what happened to the AU hunters last season, this could be considered a win in comparison.

[AwesomO4000]

56 minutes ago, PinkChicken said:

 If you allow your characters to become self-actualised or whatever, what other purpose would the narrative hold? - a completely ridiculous fear if you ask me, people live for 80+ years and we learn and change every single day. Allowing your characters to grow isn't going to single handedly end the series if you can think of new situations to put them in and things they haven't had to react to before.

Which is what I loved about the Gamble seasons. In my opinion, Gamble managed to let Sam and Dean (yes, even Dean, despite the depression) grow and their relationship to mature while at the same time throwing something new at them. She let Sam realize that he needed Dean without Sam being resentful about it. She let Dean stand up for himself with the people he loved and accept that they are fallible beings while at the same time still loving them. There was no Sam screwing up to have to overcome in order to have this character growth.

But of course all of that got completely undone with one stupid episode.

[Myrelle]

I'm  expecting nothing good  for Dean in tonight's episode

Spoiler

Especially because of the Deancentric sneak peek they gave us.

It's like they think we never notice how often they've pulled shit like this before; but the biggest reason that I'm expecting nothing but drek for Dean out of this one is that Berens penned it.

[ILoveReading]

12 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I'm  expecting nothing good  for Dean in tonight's episode

  Hide contents

Especially because of the Deancentric sneak peek they gave us.

It's like they think we never notice how often they've pulled shit like this before; but the biggest reason that I'm expecting nothing but drek for Dean out of this one is that Berens penned it.

Our of all the writers Beren's seems to target Dean the most.

[ILoveReading]

As expected.

Berens through Dean under the bus, and he backed it up and ran him over and then did it again and then again and again and once more for good measure.

Sam sacrificed Rowena, Cas went to hell and Killed Belphegor, Rowena sacrificed herself.

Dean waited by a hole to throw in a useless mojo bag.  

Buckle up Dean fans it will be a long season.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Our of all the writers Beren's seems to target Dean the most.

And that's exactly what he did tonight.

Don't watch tonight's episode if you're a Dean fan.

Berens completely threw him under the bus again.

You've been warned.

I can't see how anyone can now say that the writing isn't biased against both Dean and the actor who portrays him.

This one went above and beyond attempted character assassination, AFAIC.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Myrelle
revision

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

And that's exactly what he did tonight.

Don't watch tonight's episode if you're a Dean fan.

Berens completely threw him under the bus again.

You've been warned.

Thanks for the warning. I haven't watched at all since the season began. I'm going to wait until the end, get the overall opinions from my fellow Deangirls and watch on Netflix after it's over. I'm no longer excited to watch live and see how they continue to destroy Dean.

[Whodunnit]

I'm so confused by Dean's actions.

[Myrelle]

6 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Thanks for the warning. I haven't watched at all since the season began. I'm going to wait until the end, get the overall opinions from my fellow Deangirls and watch on Netflix after it's over. I'm no longer excited to watch live and see how they continue to destroy Dean.

It's really sad.

No wonder Jensen wants out.

I don't even need an episode thread for this one.

I'll be right here because, quite frankly, anything I would have to say about this one will always come back to Jensen wanting out because of what Dabb and his cronies have attempted to do and are STILL attempting to do to the character that he's put everything he had into for the last decade and a half.

I wish I knew what they have against both character and actor, at this point.