“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[catrox14]

On 8/26/2019 at 6:26 AM, ILoveReading said:

Also when Sam was patting himself on the back and deciding he was ready to die, he didn't give a crap that he'd be "leaving Dean out there alone." 

S10 s is the season when I finlly accepted, swallowed, that Sam was and would always be the main protagonist of the show and that Dean was there to help tell Sams story.  I had a glimmer that Dean would get to be the main protagonist for  hot minute with the MoC arc but that went up on smoke in s10 when it became more about Sam saving Dean whilst realizing hunting was now his life and he would make up for not looking for him in s8 by going all out in s10 to find him.  Even though Saam did some sketchy things to find Dean, the story was earmarked for Sam,  given they opened the season with Sam torturing the demon to get  info on demon!Dean. By not starting with Dean, that signaled to me, that Dean was  not even going to be the point of the demon!/MoC Dean arcs. That was always about Sam redemption. If the show had ended w Carver in s10 the Darkness wouldn't have been a thing, but Sam going to save Dean would have been the end and he was redeemed.  So to me given all that , even if Sam does bad things in the storylines, it's still ultimately About Sam. Dean is still there to serve Sams story even when the action might intermittently guve Dean something to do, somehow it ends up being About Sam.

So to me, Sam is never not the main character (maybe not in s14 wguch was Jack as it seems) and some times a main character makes a heel turn in the journey to hero status. To me, that seems like a good thing if one digs Sam Winchester.

[AwesomO4000]

30 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam doesn't get a free pass for everything he did while souless. Because everything souless Sam did, I can name an equivalent that real Sam didi.   Because we're told its not really that big a deal and you just ask yourself "What would Mr. Rogers do."  Souless Sam was asking "What would real Sam do."  His instinct was to basically ignore Dean for an entire year. 

But during who's story was that new wrinkle introduced... Carver's if I remember correctly (It was season 8 and 11, even though I think the Mister Rogers part might've been later). That's when being soulless was changed, and even then, I doubt that we're supposed to believe that the woman who killed her husband would've done so when she had her soul.

As for what Sam did while soilless being on Sam, real Sam didn't even remember it, because real Sam hadn't been there. He'd still been in hell. And he didn't even choose to be soulless to begin with. That was chosen for him.

If Sam's responsible for what he did while soulless, is Dean responsible for what he did and said while he was a demon? Because his instinct was to try /want to kill Sam. Demon Dean had maybe even more feelings than soulless Sam did, and Meg said that demons can and do love. So is Dean responsible for what he did and said while he was a demon?

I don't hold either responsible even though Dean's actions - his taking the mark - led to his becoming a demon, so arguably Dean would've been more responsible than Sam who didn't choose to be soulless.

43 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam did resent both both Benny and Cas.  "Who are you going to turn too, another Angel another vampire.?"  Were the exact words that left Sam's mouth.   Dean didn't turn to them because he distrusted Sam.  Cas rescused him, becasue he was ordered too, and if Dean didn't turn to Benny he'd still be in purgatory. 

And those were both Carver's episodes. Carver wrote Sam not looking for Dean in episode one, and he wrote those "exact words" in the final episode that season.

In season 4, Sam was thankful for Castiel saving Dean. All of season 4 Sam was nice to Castiel, even when Castiel wasn't so nice to him. Same with much of season 5. Sam even forgave Castiel when Castiel tried to kill him in season 6. If there was any resentment towards Castiel, that would've been a good time for it to show up. It didn't and there never was resentment (or jealousy even) shown towards Castiel until Carver wrote it that way in season 8.

That's what I meant by it being out of character. We never saw the behavior before in seasons 4 through 7. Carver introduced it and he did so (imo) to

Sam the bad guy so Benny could be the sacrificing hero.

52 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Because the writes of the ep believed everything that came out of Sam's mouth.  They even tweeted it. "Sam was coming from a place of honesty. "

What does that even mean? Sam was angry - and he had a right to be. But what about Dean's lying - which had been the first thing Sam had been angry about in "Road Trip?" Why didn't Sam mention that?

No, in my opinion, that was skipped, because the writers wanted the entire gripe to be about Dean's initial choice, so that when Sam made the same choice - which I'm sure had already been decided by the time "The Purge" was written - then Sam would be a liar and a hypocrite, and Dean would be justified in all of his decisions, because Sam would be shown to do the same thing.

If the writers "believed everything that came out of Sam's mouth" then Sam wouldn't have done the same thing  - it wasn't necessary for the plot, because Dean was going to become a demon regardless - and wouldn't have had Sam say "I lied." So obviously no, the writers didn't believe everything that came out of his mouth. They intended for Sam to be a liar and a hypocrite.

[ahrtee]

Maybe we can rephrase Sam's speech from Dean's POV:

"Who are you going to replace me with?  A demon?  A vet?  Another group of psychotic hunters [the Campbells, the BMoL, the AU hunters]?"

It seems to me that, for all the times Sam has said that Dean can't stand being alone, Sam is the one who always hooks up with someone once he's alone--sometimes almost immediately.  Sam has never been truly alone for any longer than he wants to be.  Dean, OTOH, seems perfectly happy (or at least capable) of being/hunting alone whenever necessary (including during times when Sam is around but not speaking to him).  He just can't stand Sam being dead, which is not the same thing.  

[ILoveReading]

28 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Maybe we can rephrase Sam's speech from Dean's POV:

"Who are you going to replace me with?  A demon?  A vet?  Another group of psychotic hunters [the Campbells, the BMoL, the AU hunters]?"

It seems to me that, for all the times Sam has said that Dean can't stand being alone, Sam is the one who always hooks up with someone once he's alone--sometimes almost immediately.  Sam has never been truly alone for any longer than he wants to be.  Dean, OTOH, seems perfectly happy (or at least capable) of being/hunting alone whenever necessary (including during times when Sam is around but not speaking to him).  He just can't stand Sam being dead, which is not the same thing.  

I've always felt the tell never matches the show.  Sam is the brother way more emotionally closed off, and he's just as clingy (but its presented as a beautiful brother moment when its Sam).  Sam is only empathetic when it somehow reminds him of himself or it benefits him.

I've always felt,

Sam needs Dean but doesn't really want him. 

Dean wants Sam but doesn't really need him. 

[ahrtee]

Just now, ILoveReading said:

Sam needs Dean but doesn't really want him. 

Dean wants Sam but doesn't really need him. 

Exactly!  

[ahrtee]

Another thought about soulless vs. demon.  In the SPN 'verse, being soulless is still being the same person except without the voice of conscience telling you that something is wrong (the original soulless characters acted on impulse and didn't stop to think "what would Mr. Rogers do").  Being a demon is having your soul twisted into darkness.  So, according to that, Sam was being Sam deep down, but Dean was an evil, twisted version of himself.  

But the fact is that soulless Sam did stop to consider and still did bad things out of indifference or because they were expedient without caring about collateral damage.  He joined with the Campbells and became the quintessential hunter, enjoying the killing.  

DemonDean, OTOH, stepped away from killing, seeming more interested in enjoying himself.  I'd guess that, if the MoC hadn't forced him to kill every so often, he wouldn't kill anyone.  As it was, he may have picked fights with others and acted like a bastard, but only killed the demons Crowley sent after him.  Even when Crowley sent him on a "job," he chose to kill the one he thought was worse.

So what does that say about their underlying characters? That Sam, underneath, is ruthless and a born hunter? That Dean really just wants to have fun/is tired of hunting and killing?  But Sam was shown to be appalled at what he had done and had to seek redemption (again!)  And everyone (especially Bobby) was supposed to comfort him and tell him it wasn't really him.  But yes, it was.  And is.  

As @ILoveReading said above, the tell never matches the show.  

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean ended up getting disowned by the person he loved the most.  He ended up taking the mark and ultimately ended up getting killed and turning into a demon.  I'd say there were consequences.

Dean taking the mark was his own decision. Another decision that didn't have any real consequences attributed to Dean. When Sam got a similar disowning by Dean, he worked to make things better, not go off and do something reckless. (That's what he did when Dean died.)

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

So no, I don't think Carver through Sam under the bus, I think Jensen's ability to rise above the writing was the only thing that saved the character.  

I think it was more because the writers made sure to have Sam do something worse - let loose Amara - so that Dean looked better by comparison.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

By not starting with Dean, that signaled to me, that Dean was  not even going to be the point of the demon!/MoC Dean arcs. That was always about Sam redemption. If the show had ended w Carver in s10 the Darkness wouldn't have been a thing, but Sam going to save Dean would have been the end and he was redeemed. 

What redemption?

I kind of doubt all of that foreshadowing about the Book of the Damned was meant to not happen, myself. That would've been one heck of a Chekov's gun.

No, there wasn't meant to be redemption at the end of season 10 for Sam, imo. Sam was meant to be shown as "wrong." And instead it set up season 11 and Dean's connection to Amara - which again was about Dean since Sam wasn't even present for the big showdown.

Season 9 was similarly not about Sam. Sam's anger was to set up Dean getting the mark of Cain, and then it was all about Dean. And Gadreel. Which I wouldn't have much problem with if they hadn't also made Sam into the bad guy, but they did.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

If Sam's responsible for what he did while soulless, is Dean responsible for what he did and said while he was a demon? Because his instinct was to try /want to kill Sam.

No, his instinct was to get as far away from Sam as he could, and stay away. Even when Sam found him, he tried to get him to leave him alone. And even in the bunker, when he started the cure, he pleaded with him not to, and to leave him alone. It was only after Sam insisted on trying to to 'kill' (cure) him (Demon Dean), that Demon Dean went after Sam.

If we're comparing Soulless Sam to Demon Dean and allowing that soullessness/demonhood allowed their base natures to control them, then, IMO, Soulless Sam was the far more dangerous, murderous and conscience-less being of the two.

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

If Sam's responsible for what he did while soulless, is Dean responsible for what he did and said while he was a demon? Because his instinct was to try /want to kill Sam. Demon Dean had maybe even more feelings than soulless Sam did, and Meg said that demons can and do love. So is Dean responsible for what he did and said while he was a demon?

I've always said that underneath all the shiny wrapping of the so-called brotherly bond it was pretty empty. 

IMO, Sam and Dean may love each other, but I don't think they really like each other all that much.   Because when one loses a filter they don't have anything nice to say to each other.

Edited August 27, 2019 by ILoveReading

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Maybe we can rephrase Sam's speech from Dean's POV:

"Who are you going to replace me with?  A demon?  A vet?  Another group of psychotic hunters [the Campbells, the BMoL, the AU hunters]?"

Dean did say this in various forms throughout the show. "You chose a demon over me." "So there was a girl." I guess I'm not getting your point.

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

No, his instinct was to get as far away from Sam as he could, and stay away.

I thought that that was because his instinct was to kill Sam, and so he couldn't stick around. At least that's what I thought (paraphrase) "I'm trying not to come over there and rip your throat out with my teeth" meant.

My point was that other demons have claimed to love others - Cain being one of them - but that wasn't demon Dean's instinct when it came to Sam. Not so differently than it wasn't soulless Sam's instinct either, although apparently for a while he did gravitate back towards Dean for some reason.

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Another thought about soulless vs. demon.  In the SPN 'verse, being soulless is still being the same person except without the voice of conscience telling you that something is wrong (the original soulless characters acted on impulse and didn't stop to think "what would Mr. Rogers do").  Being a demon is having your soul twisted into darkness.  So, according to that, Sam was being Sam deep down, but Dean was an evil, twisted version of himself. 

I'm not so sure about that. It's murky. If a soul is just a voice of conscience, then the soul wouldn't have memories from heaven or hell. It couldn't be twisted into being a demon, and a demon taking over someone would more result in that person being them, but being influenced by a twisted soul, but that isn't the case. The person is shoved into the background and the demon is the demon with its own personality, motives, and desires.

When Dean's soul went to hell, that was Dean, not the body lying under the ground in Indiana. When Sam's soul was left in hell, that was Sam, not the body walking around with Sam's memories that were imprinted on his brain and reanimated by Cas. Now Sam's memories were his, and it could be argued that soulless Sam was shaped / influenced / created by those memories, but without real feelings behind those memories, soulless Sam was more like a sociopath. Real Sam does have those feelings, so his reactions are going to be completely different - in my opinion - than a body with memories that have no context or feeling behind them.

But that's just my opinion on how I see that.

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

If we're comparing Soulless Sam to Demon Dean and allowing that soullessness/demonhood allowed their base natures to control them, then, IMO, Soulless Sam was the far more dangerous, murderous and conscience-less being of the two.

Hey, I'm not going to disagree with you on the last part. Soulless Sam was downright scary, in my opinion.

And in a way the conscious-less thing is a given. Soulless Sam had no conscience. Dean had a twisted one, but it was at least a conscience.

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam is the brother way more emotionally closed off, and he's just as clingy (but its presented as a beautiful brother moment when its Sam).  Sam is only empathetic when it somehow reminds him of himself or it benefits him.

I disagree with all of this, especially it being presented as a beautiful moment when Sam is clingy. Sam was the one being presented as "worse than a demon" when he was trying to get Dean back in season 10 - not presented as "beautiful" at all. And he was the one punished with starting an apocalypse and called out by Chuck for wanting to save Dean from the MoC.

It's more accepted by the narrative when Dean does it - like Dean's killing Death to save Sam which ended up only being a positive for them later on.

In my opinion, consequences for a character's actions say volumes about what the writers think concerning the characters.

[gonzosgirrl]

I was thinking this thread could pretty much be renamed B/J vs Nickifer/NougatBaby. Heh. It also occurs to me that I understand now why some fans hated the last season of Charmed so much. I enjoyed it enough at the time, but I was not a hard-core fan of the sisters, per se, so the focus on the new girl didn't bug me. Jack is the Billie of SPN.

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Jack is the Billie of SPN.

That is so funny I was thinking the exact same thing. Jack (like Billie) was brought in to attract younger viewers . Since that didn't happen (it didn't work on Charmed either) I'm not sure why they are doubling down on shoving Jack down our throats.

[Aeryn13]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

That is so funny I was thinking the exact same thing. Jack (like Billie) was brought in to attract younger viewers . Since that didn't happen (it didn't work on Charmed either) I'm not sure why they are doubling down on shoving Jack down our throats.

Yeah, I think while Jackie-poo is seen as the little can-do-no-wrong baby (he has kinda usurped Sam in that way from comments I have seen, predictably Dean was the mean bully then and is now, eyeroll), it's not he has brought droves of new teenage fans. Pro-tip, CW, they are watching Riverdale.

Ironically Netflix brought on the biggest influx of new viewers and latecomers as they binged the show. But at a certain point the longevity of the show becomes a turn off, who wants to catch up on 14 Seasons? I recently started binge-ing Lucifer and that is only 4 Seasons but with work and life butting it, that still takes me a month or so. And it's a great show so I'm motivated. Takes the sour taste of way overused and overdone SPN-Lucifer away.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Aeryn13

[Casseiopeia]

41 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Pro-tip, CW, they are watching Riverdale.

Eugenie thinks that is their audience.

[Aeryn13]

2 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

Eugenie thinks that is their audience.

Not even remotely. But the Nep Duo is more out of touch than any other writer.

[Castiels Cat]

5 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

Eugenie thinks that is their audience.

I do not think thinking plays into it. It simply flies out of her mind like a stream of free flow garbage. Some interesting tidbits. A lot of crap. Very little belonging to a show called SUPERNATURAL. Scant canon.

Her forte is not horror, genre or mytharc. What the hell did she write... Hart to Hart? That was moderately witty episodic dribble. That is what we are getting . . . Moderately witty episodic dribble.

AND a grotesque window into what the Singer bedroom life might be like.

[Castiels Cat]

6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Yeah, I think while Jackie-poo is seen as the little can-do-no-wrong baby (he has kinda usurped Sam in that way from comments I have seen, predictably Dean was the mean bully then and is now, eyeroll), it's not he has brought droves of new teenage fans. Pro-tip, CW, they are watching Riverdale.

Ironically Netflix brought on the biggest influx of new viewers and latecomers as they binged the show. But at a certain point the longevity of the show becomes a turn off, who wants to catch up on 14 Seasons? I recently started binge-ing Lucifer and that is only 4 Seasons but with work and life butting it, that still takes me a month or so. And it's a great show so I'm motivated. Takes the sour taste of way overused and overdone SPN-Lucifer away.

Any tightly written show that respects character development and mytharc is a great watch. 

"Justified" managed to deliver it's best season in its final season. " Supernatural" will not. Going into season 14 I thought maybe it just might end on a high note. The writers suck. Jack sucks.

I can't believe they think it's funny thru almost won a contest to be the CW's biggest villain. 

Hint: Kripke weathered a succession of failures because of fan goodwill from "Supernatural". None of you have that goodwill. Carver as well benefited from not being a jerk about fan criticism. His seasons were controversial depending on which way you roll.

Carver, Kripke and Gamble all have hits now.  one wonders if the current staff plans on working again. Reading through Jensen's feedback from coms on this board. . . He is unhappy. He obviously pulled the plug. This would be known to the CW  Therefore these writers are not working there because they killed the network's cash cow. I can't but think that this is going to get around. Unless they come up with a brilliant self funded concept. . . They may be D.O.A.  

[FlickChick]

22 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Carver, Kripke and Gamble all have hits now.  one wonders if the current staff plans on working again. Reading through Jensen's feedback from coms on this board. . . He is unhappy. He obviously pulled the plug. This would be known to the CW  Therefore these writers are not working there because they killed the network's cash cow. I can't but think that this is going to get around. Unless they come up with a brilliant self funded concept. . . They may be D.O.A.  

Nothing, I repeat, NOTHING would make me more delighted than this current bunch of morons to never, never have their names on anything ever again. To devolve into oblivion in much the same way they forced the future of this show. And this goes double triple no, infinitesimally for Dabb.

[DeeDee79]

36 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Nothing, I repeat, NOTHING would make me more delighted than this current bunch of morons to never, never have their names on anything ever again. To devolve into oblivion in much the same way they forced the future of this show. And this goes double triple no, infinitesimally for Dabb.

I would love for Dabb to fade into obscurity while Jensen thrives post SPN. It would almost make up for how horribly Dean has been written for the past too many seasons.

[Casseiopeia]

 

The hashtags are the best. #notallheroswearcapes #somewearshortshorts

Edited September 22, 2019 by Casseiopeia

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

 

The hashtags are the best. #notallheroswearcapes #somewearshortshorts

Robbie knows.😎

[BlueSapphire]

So we get another hunter friend of Dean’s coming out of the woodwork, but Sam gets nothing. I mean, at this point I could make a pretty big list of characters Dean has bonded with, but for Sam, it’s pretty minuscule. Extremely lopsided for the leads on this show.

[ILoveReading]

7 hours ago, BlueSapphire said:

So we get another hunter friend of Dean’s coming out of the woodwork, but Sam gets nothing. I mean, at this point I could make a pretty big list of characters Dean has bonded with, but for Sam, it’s pretty minuscule. Extremely lopsided for the leads on this show.

Since Dabb took over, Sam gets the majority of scenes with the guest stars.  Dean's resting or however else they are spinning it.

Sam got more time with Mary than Dean did and Mary did nothing complement Sam while Dean got to degrade himself.  Sam also go the important scenes with AU Bobby and Charlie. 

Cas is now Sam's best friend as the show has been working to drive a wedge between them Dabb took over.

Sam gets the majority of the scenes with Rowena.  Dean barely interacts with her.

Spoiler

Eileen is coming back and she's a Sam character.  Plus, Adam is coming back and Im sure he and Sam will bond over their time in the cage.

Sam had all the AU people, in particular Maggie.

Dean doesn't even have his hunting skills anymore.  He doesn't have the leadership roll anymore. 

Spoiler

Free will never existed so Dean's primary roll has just been made null and void.

I wish Dabb would treat Dean as badly as he treats Sam.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I wish Dabb would treat Dean as badly as he treats Sam.

Amen.

[ahrtee]

9 hours ago, BlueSapphire said:

So we get another hunter friend of Dean’s coming out of the woodwork, but Sam gets nothing

Plus all the "hunter friends" of Dean's are from the time he hunted alone.  He had all those years while Sam was at college making his own friends.  We don't hear about them (any more: we certainly did for the first 5 years) because they have no bearing on his current life, the way old hunter friends do.  

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam had all the AU people, in particular Maggie.

They all looked to him and followed him (and called him "chief.")  That's much more than an occasional old friend from the past.  

[Bobcatkitten]

Other than Cassie has Dean ever had an old friend from the past show up? Sam had one with the shifter episode. I don't think any since. It's not something that happens all the time. 

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Other than Cassie has Dean ever had an old friend from the past show up? Sam had one with the shifter episode. I don't think any since. It's not something that happens all the time. 

Richie from Sin City.  The guy whose name I'm forgetting from Bad Boys. Lisa.  

But, why does everything have to be a big comparison?  Who cares who has more friends, or older friends?

[gonzosgirrl]

Alas, since this is Dabbernatural we're talking about, I'm more than certain this 'old friend' will a) turn out to be someone Dean let down in some fashion, b) will be amazed how 'little Sammy' became such a big, strong, awesome hunter, and c) will somehow beat some love/sense/humility into Dean because tough love is the only thing Dean understands.

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Richie from Sin City.  The guy whose name I'm forgetting from Bad Boys. Lisa.  

But, why does everything have to be a big comparison?  Who cares who has more friends, or older friends?

Sam had Rebecca Warren and her brother Zach in Skin.  Also Brady (who turned out to be a demon) and Amy (who was a monster).  And numerous imaginary Jessicas showing up periodically.  😊

They both had a number of John's old friends--besides the usual Bobby, Caleb, Pastor Jim and Ellen, there was also Missouri, Travis the rugaru hunter, crazy Martin, the guard at the prison, Tara and all of John's friends that Sam contacted in Faith.  They also had their own old friends--their old babysitter in Swap Meat (I think?),  the female hunter they all (including Bobby) slept with, the police officer/witch in Man's Best Friend with Benefits.  And of course there were all the hunters they didn't know but who'd heard of them, from Gordon and his friends through all the hunters in Asa Fox.  

So I'd say they're equal in old friends.  If you're counting new ones/those bonding with one brother or the other in the past few years, I'd say Sam wins there.  But, as @Katy M said, who cares?  Who's counting, and why? 

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Alas, since this is Dabbernatural we're talking about, I'm more than certain this 'old friend' will a) turn out to be someone Dean let down in some fashion, b) will be amazed how 'little Sammy' became such a big, strong, awesome hunter, and c) will somehow beat some love/sense/humility into Dean because tough love is the only thing Dean understands.

Or he'll die horribly and it'll be Dean's fault.  

[Bobcatkitten]

Yeah, seems pretty even. I'm not going to get into actual counting. 

[Cambion]

10 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Sam had Rebecca Warren and her brother Zach in Skin.  Also Brady (who turned out to be a demon) and Amy (who was a monster).  And numerous imaginary Jessicas showing up periodically.  😊

They both had a number of John's old friends--besides the usual Bobby, Caleb, Pastor Jim and Ellen, there was also Missouri, Travis the rugaru hunter, crazy Martin, the guard at the prison, Tara and all of John's friends that Sam contacted in Faith.  They also had their own old friends--their old babysitter in Swap Meat (I think?),  the female hunter they all (including Bobby) slept with, the police officer/witch in Man's Best Friend with Benefits.  And of course there were all the hunters they didn't know but who'd heard of them, from Gordon and his friends through all the hunters in Asa Fox.  

So I'd say they're equal in old friends.  If you're counting new ones/those bonding with one brother or the other in the past few years, I'd say Sam wins there.  But, as @Katy M said, who cares?  Who's counting, and why? 

Or he'll die horribly and it'll be Dean's fault.  

I'm just hoping this isn't a latch ditch effort at another spin-off that will diminish what little ending story they'll give the boys.  (Plus I am totally terrified they'll kill Dean and leave Sam riding into the sunset, cause that fits with the Jared "YAY" and the Jensen "WTF" attitudes.)

[AwesomO4000]

16 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam gets the majority of the scenes with Rowena.  Dean barely interacts with her.

And Dean has the majority of scenes with Ketch, so each brother has a "frenemy" associated with them.

But in my opinion both of those relationships are iffy, anyway, and I'm rather tired of the "initially awful character sticks around and 'helps' and so therefore let's ignore that they used to be horrible, horrible people" thing that seems to be getting more common in the last few years.

Don't these writers remember how awful they initially made these characters? Why should they want Sam and Dean associating with them as "friends" in any capacity at all... the implications would seem to put both of their morality / judgement into question.

The choice of Ketch to me was bizarre, too. In my opinion, Mitch would've been a much better choice. And while Rowena is amusing, her initial arrival and her introductory episodes painted her as so loathsome (to me), that sticks in the back of my mind no matter what "good" they have her do...

I mean sure they redeemed initially awful Metatron, too, but they didn't have Sam and Dean be "friends" with him.

So basically I'm saying I don't count either of these associations as a positive for either brother, and I wouldn't mind if they got rid of them altogether.

And I agree with KatyM and ahrtee anyway... except with the small change that I don't see the relationships as something that could even be argued as showing favor for either brother, anyway, but more as a way of keeping these characters around despite the implications of how it makes Sam and Dean look. In other words, the associations are for Rowena and Ketch themselves, not as some way to show favor towards Sam or Dean. They just attached Rowena and Ketch with the brother that made the most sense narratively - as much sense as can be made anyway, which isn't much imo - and it's no more purposeful than that.

[gonzosgirrl]

Spoiler

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I've been expecting something like this since the moment that stupid transference shot happened. If Dean had taken it, no, but since Sam did it? Seems plausible.

Spoiler

Well they did give Dean 'Michael' last season, so they have to even things up, you know.

(this post brought to you by the letter "S" for sucks, and sarcasm)

[gonzosgirrl]

Guys, these spoilers coming out of TV Guide are just breaking my heart. Everything (IMO) points to Dean/Jensen getting screwed over again and I honestly don't know if I can watch it, knowing that it won't ever be fixed now that it's ending. The more I talk about it, the angrier I get, and that's just not acceptable over a tv show.

[Myrelle]

11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Guys, these spoilers coming out of TV Guide are just breaking my heart. Everything (IMO) points to Dean/Jensen getting screwed over again and I honestly don't know if I can watch it, knowing that it won't ever be fixed now that it's ending. The more I talk about it, the angrier I get, and that's just not acceptable over a tv show.

I hear you.

My worst fears for the season and Dabb sticking it to Jensen yet again seem to all be coming true, especially as you said with these latest spoilers from TV Guide that just came out.

I WAS even a little excited about the premiere.

But now(just like last year and the year before that and the year before that) we get nothing for Dean, as far as spoilers are concerned, right before it airs, and everything under the sun for Sam-and this, even when we had MichaelDean waiting in the wings last year.

I just can't wait for Jensen to separate himself from Samnatural/Jacknatural/Dabbernatural, at this point. 

What's been going on since s12 has been beyond insulting to Jensen(and Dean) IMO.

One more year and then it will finally and thankfully be over with; but yes, I hear you and feel the same pain and anger  and indecision over whether to watch or not now after these most recent spoilers. 

It's the last season, yes, but it also just feels like the same shit, different day on Dabbernatural, too.

[AwesomO4000]

15 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Guys, these spoilers coming out of TV Guide are just breaking my heart. Everything (IMO) points to Dean/Jensen getting screwed over again and I honestly don't know if I can watch it, knowing that it won't ever be fixed now that it's ending. The more I talk about it, the angrier I get, and that's just not acceptable over a tv show.

Enh, for me things never seem to turn out how they sound like they will.

In season 9, Sam was supposedly getting this awesome storyline, and it turned out he ended up in the background of the Mark of Cain Dean and Gadreel the misunderstood, redeemed hero story instead. Sam unconscious in the finale while everybody else did the important stuff only to arrive in time to say "I lied" was just a representation of his real role in the storyline the entire season.

In season 10, Sam is supposed to learn some lesson about how abandoning Dean  - despite it having been a crappy, underdeveloped, ooc background storyline to begin with - was bad or something, except when he does do whatever he can to save Dean, somehow that's wrong too, and Dean has to save the day from the problems Sam creates.

This past season supposedly was going to be "Sam the leader" except that instead it ended up going nowhere believable or even making sense. It didn't seem that positive, especially with it ending with everyone getting killed under Sam's watch to end the storyline. I mostly considered it as a fizzled out plotline at best or showing Sam as a failure at being leader at worst. Oh and then Sam pissed off God and started another apocalypse - yay!

So even if Sam does somehow get

Spoiler

powers from God,

- which I doubt it's that simple - I'm sure the storyline will make Sam somehow misuse them, make a wrong decision with horrifying consequences, or something that will teach him a lesson like

Spoiler

it's hard being God.

Kind of like a revisiting of Sam's season 4 arc. Because heaven forbid Sam make a mistake without there being huge, crappy consequences. Double points if Dean fixes the problems Sam creates.

If something like that doesn't happen, I'll be hugely surprised.

In my opinion, being the focus of the storylines post season 7 doesn't mean much, and certainly doesn't guarantee a character is going to come out looking well or even benefiting from it. Often times the opposite.

[Aeryn13]

17 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Enh, for me things never seem to turn out how they sound like they will.

In season 9, Sam was supposedly getting this awesome storyline, and it turned out he ended up in the background of the Mark of Cain Dean and Gadreel the misunderstood, redeemed hero story instead. Sam unconscious in the finale while everybody else did the important stuff only to arrive in time to say "I lied" was just a representation of his real role in the storyline the entire season.

In season 10, Sam is supposed to learn some lesson about how abandoning Dean  - despite it having been a crappy, underdeveloped, ooc background storyline to begin with - was bad or something, except when he does do whatever he can to save Dean, somehow that's wrong too, and Dean has to save the day from the problems Sam creates.

This past season supposedly was going to be "Sam the leader" except that instead it ended up going nowhere believable or even making sense. It didn't seem that positive, especially with it ending with everyone getting killed under Sam's watch to end the storyline. I mostly considered it as a fizzled out plotline at best or showing Sam as a failure at being leader at worst. Oh and then Sam pissed off God and started another apocalypse - yay!

So even if Sam does somehow get

  Reveal spoiler

powers from God,

- which I doubt it's that simple - I'm sure the storyline will make Sam somehow misuse them, make a wrong decision with horrifying consequences, or something that will teach him a lesson like

  Reveal spoiler

it's hard being God.

Kind of like a revisiting of Sam's season 4 arc. Because heaven forbid Sam make a mistake without there being huge, crappy consequences. Double points if Dean fixes the problems Sam creates.

If something like that doesn't happen, I'll be hugely surprised.

In my opinion, being the focus of the storylines post season 7 doesn't mean much, and certainly doesn't guarantee a character is going to come out looking well or even benefiting from it. Often times the opposite.

It's the final Season so what you see is what you get now. And it's probably gonna set up a Finale that is gonna leave one brother on the sidelines. And that's not gonna be Sam.

[Myrelle]

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

It's the final Season so what you see is what you get now. And it's probably gonna set up a Finale that is gonna leave one brother on the sidelines. And that's not gonna be Sam.

And IMO, none of the showrunners have ever sidelined Dean in the same way or to the same degree that Dabb has-so yeah, it's likely to get a lot more ugly than any previous season in that regard, for sure.

[BlueSapphire]

I have to hand it to you, AwesomO4000, for sticking it out here as one of the few Sam-leaning fans still willing to post.  I have noticed more than a few regulars have moved on, either because they stopped watching or decided to lurk instead.

[gonzosgirrl]

Eh, I'm just grateful there is one place on the internet where you can be Dean-leaning and not get modded out of existence. 

I personally would be thrilled if Dean got treated as 'badly' as Sam over the series. And none of that will matter either way as Dabb gets the final word on how the series ends. 

[Bobcatkitten]

I am still looking forward to it. Half the things Dabb says you never actually see on screen or he is wrong about. So I'm not worrying too much about spoilers. 

[gonzosgirrl]

12 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I am still looking forward to it. Half the things Dabb says you never actually see on screen or he is wrong about. So I'm not worrying too much about spoilers. 

My only glimmer of hope is that the TV Guide interview is from the summer (pre-shave anyway) and maybe things have changed.

ETA: We already know that at least one thing that Dabb said is in direct opposition to what Jensen was saying at Comic Con. Alas, it's probably Jensen who is 'wrong', given the givens.

Edited October 9, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[Aeryn13]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

My only glimmer of hope is that the TV Guide interview is from the summer (pre-shave anyway) and maybe things have changed.

ETA: We already know that at least one thing that Dabb said is in direct opposition to what Jensen was saying at Comic Con. Alas, it's probably Jensen who is 'wrong', given the givens.

Is it post-Comic Con?

Spoiler

Because the vids on youtube are still up where Jared waxes poetic on how Sam will question free will. And back then they had just started shooting.

Now this article obviously has stuff from fuether into the shooting and now it's Dean.

Edited October 9, 2019 by Aeryn13

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Is it post-Comic Con?

  Hide contents

Because the vids on youtube are still up where Jared waxes poetic on how Sam will question free will. And back then they had just started shooting.

Now this article obviously has stuff from fuether into the shooting and now it's Dean.

I have no idea about the timeline. Maybe they just did the photo shoot while they had the chance and the interview(s) came later. All I know is it's a contradictory mess, and sadly, I tend to believe the stuff that screws Dean over is what is correct.

[Aeryn13]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I have no idea about the timeline. Maybe they just did the photo shoot while they had the chance and the interview(s) came later. All I know is it's a contradictory mess, and sadly, I tend to believe the stuff that screws Dean over is what is correct.

Yes, unfortunately, that seems to be the case. Unless they flip-flop within the span of one or two episodes. Don`t put anything past this show. 

[ahrtee]

16 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

In my opinion, being the focus of the storylines post season 7 doesn't mean much, and certainly doesn't guarantee a character is going to come out looking well or even benefiting from it. Often times the opposite.

If you look at the entire show from beginning to end, to see the whole development of the characters, this is what it looks like to me:

Over the past 15 years, Sam has grown from an idealistic, very young college student who hated hunting and wanted nothing more than a quiet, normal life as a lawyer, to a superhunter who has fully embraced the life and is now a leader among hunters, while overcoming all the missteps and pitfalls he had along the way (self-created or not). 

Dean, originally a somewhat cynical but joyful “born hunter” who loved greasy fast food, women and hunting and whose main purpose in life was to take care of Sam, because of his inability to overcome everything that has happened in the last 15 years has grown into a depressed alcoholic who hates hunting (and seems to have lost most of his skills) but keeps going through the motions because he doesn’t think he can do anything else, and who still feels the need to take care of Sam, although everyone (especially Sam) tells him that he’s wrong to do it. 

Upshot:  Sam (despite everything he's done wrong) comes out as the poster boy for overcoming adversity.  Dean comes across as a suicidal loser whose main purpose is to support Sam (and now Jack) into being The Best.  And this is all in the last few years, despite people saying how the writers/showrunners have "thrown Sam under the bus."  The main problem for Sam that I've seen is that they put him on the bus and made Jack the driver instead of him for the last few years.

I'm afraid that this (unfortunately) is what the takeaway from the series will be, and I miss Dean tremendously, even with all his issues and faults.  

Edited October 9, 2019 by ahrtee
Qualifying as my opinion.

[Aeryn13]

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

If you look at the entire show from beginning to end, to see the whole development of the characters, this is what it looks like to me:

Over the past 15 years, Sam has grown from an idealistic, very young college student who hated hunting and wanted nothing more than a quiet, normal life as a lawyer, to a superhunter who has fully embraced the life and is now a leader among hunters, while overcoming all the missteps and pitfalls he had along the way (self-created or not). 

Dean, originally a somewhat cynical but joyful “born hunter” who loved greasy fast food, women and hunting and whose main purpose in life was to take care of Sam, because of his inability to overcome everything that has happened in the last 15 years has grown into a depressed alcoholic who hates hunting (and seems to have lost most of his skills) but keeps going through the motions because he doesn’t think he can do anything else, and who still feels the need to take care of Sam, although everyone (especially Sam) tells him that he’s wrong to do it. 

Upshot:  Sam (despite everything he's done wrong) comes out as the poster boy for overcoming adversity.  Dean comes across as a suicidal loser whose main purpose is to support Sam (and now Jack) into being The Best.  And this is all in the last few years, despite people saying how the writers/showrunners have "thrown Sam under the bus."  The main problem for Sam that I've seen is that they put him on the bus and made Jack the driver instead of him for the last few years.

This (unfortunately) is what the takeaway from the series will be, and I miss Dean tremendously, even with all his issues and faults.  

And even if a lot of saintifying of Sam (like the leader stuff) was lipservice, that will still stick well beyond any show. 

Meanwhile they diminish Dean in the tell and not even give him much show against it. So that, too, will stick. 

Not to mention however the ending will be will remain the lasting impression. If Sam shoots lasers from his eyes and saves the multiverse while Dean trips over his own shoelaces, it will be how the characters are remembered.  

Who is gonna speak up for Dean in the writer`s room? Certainly not Dabb who writes the show like he did his super Sam-biased comic. Certainly not Singer who doesn`t really have anything complimentary to say about Dean, ever. Certainly not the Nep Duo who at best view the character as a born killer. Certainly not Berens who views him as both a bully and also a weakling. Certainly not Perez who prefers when Dean isn`t onscreen. Certainly not Dabb`s little flunky assisstant who doubly prefers Dean not being onscreen. Certainly not Jared who loves the current Finale so it`s likely good for Sam and he will not want to change that. Unlikely Jensen because even if he did, noone would listen anyway. 

[Myrelle]

11 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

If you look at the entire show from beginning to end, to see the whole development of the characters, this is what it looks like to me:

Over the past 15 years, Sam has grown from an idealistic, very young college student who hated hunting and wanted nothing more than a quiet, normal life as a lawyer, to a superhunter who has fully embraced the life and is now a leader among hunters, while overcoming all the missteps and pitfalls he had along the way (self-created or not). 

Dean, originally a somewhat cynical but joyful “born hunter” who loved greasy fast food, women and hunting and whose main purpose in life was to take care of Sam, because of his inability to overcome everything that has happened in the last 15 years has grown into a depressed alcoholic who hates hunting (and seems to have lost most of his skills) but keeps going through the motions because he doesn’t think he can do anything else, and who still feels the need to take care of Sam, although everyone (especially Sam) tells him that he’s wrong to do it. 

Upshot:  Sam (despite everything he's done wrong) comes out as the poster boy for overcoming adversity.  Dean comes across as a suicidal loser whose main purpose is to support Sam (and now Jack) into being The Best.  And this is all in the last few years, despite people saying how the writers/showrunners have "thrown Sam under the bus."  The main problem for Sam that I've seen is that they put him on the bus and made Jack the driver instead of him for the last few years.

I'm afraid that this (unfortunately) is what the takeaway from the series will be, and I miss Dean tremendously, even with all his issues and faults.  

Yeah, this is pretty sad, but I'll probably just choose to ignore the Dabb years entirely after this show has ended. 

It's not that hard for me as I can only really remember less episodes than you can count on one hand during his tenure.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Who is gonna speak up for Dean in the writer`s room? Certainly not Dabb who writes the show like he did his super Sam-biased comic. Certainly not Singer who doesn`t really have anything complimentary to say about Dean, ever. Certainly not the Nep Duo who at best view the character as a born killer. Certainly not Berens who views him as both a bully and also a weakling. Certainly not Perez who prefers when Dean isn`t onscreen. Certainly not Dabb`s little flunky assisstant who doubly prefers Dean not being onscreen. Certainly not Jared who loves the current Finale so it`s likely good for Sam and he will not want to change that. Unlikely Jensen because even if he did, noone would listen anyway. 

This may be the saddest, and sadly, most accurate, thing I've read regarding Dabb, Dean and the series ending. It hurts me. And honestly, I think maybe Jensen has resigned himself to it after the puppet fight and the debacle that was the Michael/Dean arc. I believe he's the one who pulled the plug (no matter what the party line is) and he's just going to be that team player til the bitter end and let them do what they will. I won't kid myself that I won't watch this final season, but I am 100% sure that when it's all over, *my* Supernatural will end with S11. That's the last Blu-Ray I bought and I'll just consider it a done deal.

[DeeDee79]

44 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

If you look at the entire show from beginning to end, to see the whole development of the characters, this is what it looks like to me:

Over the past 15 years, Sam has grown from an idealistic, very young college student who hated hunting and wanted nothing more than a quiet, normal life as a lawyer, to a superhunter who has fully embraced the life and is now a leader among hunters, while overcoming all the missteps and pitfalls he had along the way (self-created or not). 

Dean, originally a somewhat cynical but joyful “born hunter” who loved greasy fast food, women and hunting and whose main purpose in life was to take care of Sam, because of his inability to overcome everything that has happened in the last 15 years has grown into a depressed alcoholic who hates hunting (and seems to have lost most of his skills) but keeps going through the motions because he doesn’t think he can do anything else, and who still feels the need to take care of Sam, although everyone (especially Sam) tells him that he’s wrong to do it. 

Upshot:  Sam (despite everything he's done wrong) comes out as the poster boy for overcoming adversity.  Dean comes across as a suicidal loser whose main purpose is to support Sam (and now Jack) into being The Best.  And this is all in the last few years, despite people saying how the writers/showrunners have "thrown Sam under the bus."  The main problem for Sam that I've seen is that they put him on the bus and made Jack the driver instead of him for the last few years.

I'm afraid that this (unfortunately) is what the takeaway from the series will be, and I miss Dean tremendously, even with all his issues and faults.  

I find this to be accurate and incredibly sad at the same time.