“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

For me the difference is that I don't think Carver's intention was to throw Sam under the bus.  Because from the sounds of interviews authroiral intent was clearly to show Sam had matured.  He was stated multiple times.  I think at first he genuinely wanted to give the brothers a healthier relationship.   I believe his intention was to show that Sam grieved and then moved on rather than trying to make a deal.  To show they learned from their mistakes.  But I think he went wrong with not having Sam try.  He should have opened the season with Sam standing a crossroads looking to make a deal, realizing he couldn't go down that road again, that Dean wouldn't want him too, and then driving away he hits the dog.  Exact same season, whole different context. 

I might agree, except that I don't generally trust authorial intent, especially when it's not reflected in the writing.

It was Carver's own episode - and the first one of the season - that had Sam not only not looking for Dean, but abandoning Kevin to Crowley (who Sam should know would likely torture him) and appearing to shrug his shoulders at it. An then had Kevin say "Eeeeeeat me" in his phone messages - repeatedly - to point further to how either ridiculous, shitty, or both it was that Sam abandoned Kevin. I can't imagine how it would be considered "mature" to just run off and abandon your responsibilities - especially since I'm pretty sure somewhere in one of season 7's final episodes Sam said he felt responsible for Kevin.(???) So for me, wanting a "healthier relationship" for Sam and Dean did not have to include abandoning Kevin, so the purpose of that - and then hanging an "amusing" (I didn't find it amusing at all) lampshade on it - to me appeared to have another purpose from the beginning that entirely contradicted a "mature" storyline. I might've been able to be okay with Sam not looking for Dean and still bought that Carver's intention was a "mature" storyline,*** but the inclusion of abandoning Kevin for me was a deal-breaker in believing that.

In no logical argument is it a mature thing to abandon someone in your charge - and basically a kid at that - and purposely ignore any and all responsibilities you previously had and "run away."

One of the major points of "Afterschool Special" was Sam learning that not running away from his responsibilities was part of growing up and being mature. Even though I don't know if I entirely agree with the premise that Sam was only "running away" when he went to college, the point is that the show already established this attitude, so having Sam run away from his responsibilities in season 8 and expecting this to be seen as responsible - after that previous show canon had already been established (and Carver was there for it) - to me seems very far-fetched. I don't think I've seen any war movie ever where I was supposed to see it as a "mature" thing to do or cheer on a guy who looks at a wounded fellow soldier and shrugs his shoulders "you're on your own dude, I gotta save myself" and just walks away. The idea just boggles my mind. So that purposeful decision - having Sam abandon Kevin - told me everything I needed about Carver's intentions on what he was doing with Sam's character, and it wasn't good or trying to make him look mature.

It's hard to have a character look mature and/or have the audience side with that character if you also have that character behave in a less than admirable manner and then proceed to point at and mock it - repeatedly - to boot. Protestations of "but I meant for it to be this..." are just going to seem ingenuous... and with good reason.

*** Though like you said, Carver should have at least had Sam try, but that too, in my opinion, was an "on purpose" that could easily have been fixed later with one line, but Carver didn't bother, meaning he was apparently okay with fans being angry with Sam - besides it made his own original character Benny look better and be more popular, so a win for him.

So long story shortened: I'm not just disagreeing with Carver's stated intentions in interviews to be argumentative. I believe there is plenty of evidence in his own episode - which because it was the first of the season established canon and the tone - that shows what Carver was saying in those interviews either made no logical sense or was a complete fabrication... maybe to appease fans who he knew would object to the things he was having Sam do. Problem is, I don't think he really thought much about his explanations, because logically they made little sense - as I outlined above - so he should've tried a different one ...like Sam had a breakdown, which would've made much more sense and at least have been backed up by what actually happened in the episode.

[Lemuria]

On 10/13/2018 at 3:52 PM, ILoveReading said:

I'd watch that.  I want spin off Dean and Ketch going on the road.

And they stop off in Purgatory and pick up Benny!

Quote

Mary is a human. She's allowed to be flawed.

There's flawed--and then there's Mary.  I liked the Mary we saw in earlier eps.  I have no idea why they chose to portray her as they have since she returned.  For me, they have completely destroyed her character.  Turns out that Dean and Sam were better off with John for a parent than they would have been with Mary.

Go figure.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Lemuria

[mertensia]

17 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

So long story shortened: I'm not just disagreeing with Carver's stated intentions in interviews to be argumentative. I believe there is plenty of evidence in his own episode - which because it was the first of the season established canon and the tone - that shows what Carver was saying in those interviews either made no logical sense or was a complete fabrication... maybe to appease fans who he knew would object to the things he was having Sam do. Problem is, I don't think he really thought much about his explanations, because logically they made little sense - as I outlined above - so he should've tried a different one ...like Sam had a breakdown, which would've made much more sense and at least have been backed up by what actually happened in the episode.

Well, there's also the possibility that to Carver it does all make sense. If he believes that shacking up with Amelia shows maturity, no more co-dependence, whatever, then to him showing that proves his point.

[Hana Chan]

On 10/15/2018 at 8:33 AM, ILoveReading said:

For me the difference is that I don't think Carver's intention was to throw Sam under the bus. 

Whether he intended it or not, Sam got run over by a fast-moving Greyhound and never really recovered.  But then, he never recovered from season four or five, so that's nothing new.

I look at the difference in how similar storylines have been handled and how the audience was asked to few Sam and Dean through them and there is a very clear bias against Sam. Let's take season five, when Dean is living with Lisa and Ben after Sam went into the cage. We had time jump after Sam went into the cage that showed Dean very much settled into civilian life. He had a job and a comfortable domestic relationship with Lisa and Ben. He played golf and went to neighborhood cookouts. We saw him doing some basic protections around the house with devil traps under the rugs. What we didn't see? Anything to show that he was actively trying to free Sam from the cage. He wasn't chasing down leads only to be disappointed that they didn't pan out. It was clear that he was haunted by Sam's loss, but he was at least accepting that Sam was gone.

When Sam did return, Dean didn't go running out the door to rejoin Sam on the road. He felt an obligation to Lisa and Ben and despite being happy that Sam was alive, he wasn't in any hurry to rejoin Sam hunting. He started treating it as a past time, going only once he has Lisa's blessing to do so and all the while Dean was clearly torn between the two lives he was trying to lead. And Sam was acting strangely enough to justify Dean’s reluctance to totally give up his homey life.

What we didn’t get? Anything from Sam’s POV during all these episodes. It was justified that because Sam was soulless at the time that to have any real POV would give away the “mystery” but the end result was that we were asked to completely sympathize with Dean’s conflict that Sam’s presence was taking Dean away from the life that he’d always wanted. Even after Dean learned that Sam’s soul was still trapped in the cage (thanks to Castiel), it was a very extended period before he took real measures to get it out and the impression became that his concern was that Sam was too dangerous without his soul and not quite so much that Sam’s soul was being “hate-banged” by two archangels. It was only after Appointment in Samara that we started to get any POV moments for Sam over what he’d been through and his current state and a lot of the emotional focus of the season was on Dean and his being apart from Lisa and having to leave her for good in order to protect her.

Now we get Sam and Amelia and unlike Dean and Lisa, the focus wasn’t on Sam and why he abandoned hunting to live with this woman or what their relationship actual entailed. Because there was no “mystery” about what happened to Dean while he was in Purgatory, the show focused on him and what he’d been through. Unlike Soulless Sam, Dean had free rein to express his anger and hurt at Sam over Sam apparently choosing a normal life while he was away and suffering. Sam’s actions were painted very clearly as being selfish because he never tried to look for Dean and if he expressed any reluctance to remain in the hunting life, it was a clear expression of disloyalty. And Dean had a new ally (Benny) that he could parade in front of Sam as being more trustworthy and loyal whenever Dean felt that Sam might be drifting. Even Dean’s friendship with a deadly monster that saved his life was held up as being more valuable than Sam’s bond with the kitsune that had saved his life (and Dean felt full justification in killing her behind Sam’s back). Dean spent most of the season castigating Sam for his actions and because the audience never got to see anything about why Sam did what he did, we had no reason to think he had any valid reasons for doing this.

So now we have a storyline where Dean is absent (for the moment) and Sam has got the primary emotional POV. There’s a brief time jump since Micheal put on his Dean prom dress and Sam is shown chasing down every lead he can in order to save his brother, neglecting himself and trying to lead a group of allies. For once, his emotions and how he’s being affected is being given more than a cursory notice and I’m not going to feel badly about it. It’s very long overdue.

[Pondlass1]

I guess we all see things different. I saw a Dean going out of his mind with worry during that year with Lisa.  And he only went to Lisa because it was what Sam wanted.  His reaction upon finding out Sam had been back a whole year and nobody thought to mention it to him was heartbreaking to see. Sam on the other hand didn't seem much bothered about anything anymore and lukewarm about his brother's return. That was a half hearted hug at the cabin.

But anyway everyone has their own way of seeing things depending upon their favourite brother.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Pondlass1

[Hana Chan]

13 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I guess we all see things different. I saw a Dean going out of his mind with worry during that year with Lisa.  And he only went to Lisa because it was what Sam wanted.

Sam wanted Dean to be happy (or at least as happy as he could be) after his death. Dean, apparently, did not want that for Sam. Sam expressed no resentment that Dean hadn't done everything possible to save him from the cage and sympathized deeply with Dean losing Lisa. That's a marked contrast to how Dean handled Amelia and Sam losing her. 

Again, it's the difference in how similar storylines are handed so differently and it's an unfortunate trend that Dean's longing for normal is usually painted as sad while with Sam it's painted as being selfish. And Dean's resentment of Sam's few moments of "normal" (like seeing him having an actual Thanksgiving dinner as a kid during Dark Side of the Moon) are quite clear IMO.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Hana Chan

[Pondlass1]

3 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Dean's longing for normal

I guess we could argue till the cows come home lol.  But I've never had the impression Dean longs for 'normal'.  I often feel he relishes the thrills and dangers of a hunter's life. Dean's a restless guy. Sam's the one that runs from the family business every chance he gets. And I think Dean was hurt because Sam's dreams never included him - always strangers or a dog.  Dean remembered fireworks with his little brother.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, Hana Chan said:

Sam wanted Dean to be happy (or at least as happy as he could be) after his death. Dean, apparently, did not want that for Sam. Sam expressed no resentment that Dean hadn't done everything possible to save him from the cage and sympathized deeply with Dean losing Lisa. That's a marked contrast to how Dean handled Amelia and Sam losing her. 

Again, it's the difference in how similar storylines are handed so differently and it's an unfortunate trend that Dean's longing for normal is usually painted as sad while with Sam it's painted as being selfish. And Dean's resentment of Sam's few moments of "normal" (like seeing him having an actual Thanksgiving dinner as a kid during Dark Side of the Moon) are quite clear IMO.

 

Sorry,  not at all the same.  In preparing the other to be alone, each one asked the other to carry on--the difference is that they asked each other to do what *they* would want, not what that person would.  So Dean asked Sam to keep on fighting.  Sam told Dean to quit and be "normal."  And they both tried, and failed.  

Dean, remember, told Sam *first thing* about what a mess he'd been and how he'd spent all his time trying to save Sam.   Sam told Dean that he drove until he hit a dog and then stopped and apparently never looked back.  

Sam didn't lose Amelia.  He left her *before* he knew that Dean was back, and chose not to go back to her when offered the choice--not because of Dean, but because of her husband.  Dean also chose to leave Lisa, in order to protect her.  Sam gave him  grief about the mind wipe (and no, I'm not condoning that, just because of the stupidity of it).  

As others have said, Dean has never actively longed for normal, except as something he knows he's never going to get.  That's what makes it, not so much sad as bittersweet.  Sam, OTOH, has had the option to leave any number of times (including when he was pissed enough at Dean to take off), and always comes back.  And that was his own choice, every time, not Dean (or anyone) "taking away his autonomy" or "not letting him grow up." 

Edited October 16, 2018 by ahrtee

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, Hana Chan said:

Whether he intended it or not, Sam got run over by a fast-moving Greyhound and never really recovered.  But then, he never recovered from season four or five, so that's nothing new.

I look at the difference in how similar storylines have been handled and how the audience was asked to few Sam and Dean through them and there is a very clear bias against Sam. Let's take season five, when Dean is living with Lisa and Ben after Sam went into the cage. We had time jump after Sam went into the cage that showed Dean very much settled into civilian life. He had a job and a comfortable domestic relationship with Lisa and Ben. He played golf and went to neighborhood cookouts. We saw him doing some basic protections around the house with devil traps under the rugs. What we didn't see? Anything to show that he was actively trying to free Sam from the cage. He wasn't chasing down leads only to be disappointed that they didn't pan out. It was clear that he was haunted by Sam's loss, but he was at least accepting that Sam was gone.

When Sam did return, Dean didn't go running out the door to rejoin Sam on the road. He felt an obligation to Lisa and Ben and despite being happy that Sam was alive, he wasn't in any hurry to rejoin Sam hunting. He started treating it as a past time, going only once he has Lisa's blessing to do so and all the while Dean was clearly torn between the two lives he was trying to lead. And Sam was acting strangely enough to justify Dean’s reluctance to totally give up his homey life.

What we didn’t get? Anything from Sam’s POV during all these episodes. It was justified that because Sam was soulless at the time that to have any real POV would give away the “mystery” but the end result was that we were asked to completely sympathize with Dean’s conflict that Sam’s presence was taking Dean away from the life that he’d always wanted. Even after Dean learned that Sam’s soul was still trapped in the cage (thanks to Castiel), it was a very extended period before he took real measures to get it out and the impression became that his concern was that Sam was too dangerous without his soul and not quite so much that Sam’s soul was being “hate-banged” by two archangels. It was only after Appointment in Samara that we started to get any POV moments for Sam over what he’d been through and his current state and a lot of the emotional focus of the season was on Dean and his being apart from Lisa and having to leave her for good in order to protect her.

Now we get Sam and Amelia and unlike Dean and Lisa, the focus wasn’t on Sam and why he abandoned hunting to live with this woman or what their relationship actual entailed. Because there was no “mystery” about what happened to Dean while he was in Purgatory, the show focused on him and what he’d been through. Unlike Soulless Sam, Dean had free rein to express his anger and hurt at Sam over Sam apparently choosing a normal life while he was away and suffering. Sam’s actions were painted very clearly as being selfish because he never tried to look for Dean and if he expressed any reluctance to remain in the hunting life, it was a clear expression of disloyalty. And Dean had a new ally (Benny) that he could parade in front of Sam as being more trustworthy and loyal whenever Dean felt that Sam might be drifting. Even Dean’s friendship with a deadly monster that saved his life was held up as being more valuable than Sam’s bond with the kitsune that had saved his life (and Dean felt full justification in killing her behind Sam’s back). Dean spent most of the season castigating Sam for his actions and because the audience never got to see anything about why Sam did what he did, we had no reason to think he had any valid reasons for doing this.

So now we have a storyline where Dean is absent (for the moment) and Sam has got the primary emotional POV. There’s a brief time jump since Micheal put on his Dean prom dress and Sam is shown chasing down every lead he can in order to save his brother, neglecting himself and trying to lead a group of allies. For once, his emotions and how he’s being affected is being given more than a cursory notice and I’m not going to feel badly about it. It’s very long overdue.

Taking my comment to the UO thread because I think it's more that, than a B vs J writing issue.

[BabySpinach]

1 hour ago, Hana Chan said:

Sam wanted Dean to be happy (or at least as happy as he could be) after his death. Dean, apparently, did not want that for Sam. Sam expressed no resentment that Dean hadn't done everything possible to save him from the cage and sympathized deeply with Dean losing Lisa. That's a marked contrast to how Dean handled Amelia and Sam losing her. 

Again, it's the difference in how similar storylines are handed so differently and it's an unfortunate trend that Dean's longing for normal is usually painted as sad while with Sam it's painted as being selfish. And Dean's resentment of Sam's few moments of "normal" (like seeing him having an actual Thanksgiving dinner as a kid during Dark Side of the Moon) are quite clear IMO.

*siiiiighhhh* I've seen this argument made before, but the fact of the matter is that these two "missing brother + brief domestic life" stories are NOT the same. Sam and Dean knew and planned for Sam to drop into the cage. Dean knew exactly where his brother was. And yes, he SAID ALOUD that he did everything he could to find a way to break him out without also freeing Lucifer, but he just couldn't find one. Of course Sam wouldn't be resentful of Dean failing to save him. He MADE DEAN PROMISE NOT TO TRY, for fear of letting the devil out again. 

Dean, on the other hand, vanished by surprise and Sam had no reason to believe that his brother was dead. A mere eleven episodes ago, in 7.12 Time After Time, Dean vanished in a similar way when Chronos transported him to 1944. Did Sam just shrug and throw up his hands and leave? No, he actually researched and managed to get his brother back. The fact that Sam ADMITTED that he didn't even try this time is ridiculous and made him look like he couldn't give less of a shit about Dean, and was simply looking for an excuse to run away. Also, Dean did express regret that Sam had to choose between Amelia or him, even though Sam had already broken up with her for unrelated reasons by the time Dean had returned. Dean even admitted that he might have been "jealous" of Sam's domestic life. And he was more pissed that Sam had left Kevin to twist in the wind than he was about Sam shacking up with a woman.

Dean's occasional longing for normal is tragic because he will probably never have it and has sacrificed his childhood and self-regard for his little brother's sake. Sam's longing for normal is less sympathetic because it usually involves cutting Dean out completely or ignoring people (Kevin) who desperately need his help so that he can stick his head in the sand. Dean would have NEVER left loose ends like that if he ever planned on retiring/settling down. Hell, he warded Lisa's house and took precautions while both of Sam's girlfriends (Jessica and Amelia) didn't even know about the supernatural.

[Mulva]

Dean "vanished" in a massive explosion in a closed room.  It was perfectly reasonable for Sam to assume that Dean was part of the . . . organic matter splattered all over the walls.  Dean knew exactly where Sam was, and did absolutely nothing to free him.

[DeeDee79]

29 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

*siiiiighhhh* I've seen this argument made before, but the fact of the matter is that these two "missing brother + brief domestic life" stories are NOT the same. Sam and Dean knew and planned for Sam to drop into the cage. Dean knew exactly where his brother was. And yes, he SAID ALOUD that he did everything he could to find a way to break him out without also freeing Lucifer, but he just couldn't find one. Of course Sam wouldn't be resentful of Dean failing to save him. He MADE DEAN PROMISE NOT TO TRY, for fear of letting the devil out again. 

Dean, on the other hand, vanished by surprise and Sam had no reason to believe that his brother was dead. A mere eleven episodes ago, in 7.12 Time After Time, Dean vanished in a similar way when Chronos transported him to 1944. Did Sam just shrug and throw up his hands and leave? No, he actually researched and managed to get his brother back. The fact that Sam ADMITTED that he didn't even try this time is ridiculous and made him look like he couldn't give less of a shit about Dean, and was simply looking for an excuse to run away. Also, Dean did express regret that Sam had to choose between Amelia or him, even though Sam had already broken up with her for unrelated reasons by the time Dean had returned. Dean even admitted that he might have been "jealous" of Sam's domestic life. And he was more pissed that Sam had left Kevin to twist in the wind than he was about Sam shacking up with a woman.

Dean's occasional longing for normal is tragic because he will probably never have it and has sacrificed his childhood and self-regard for his little brother's sake. Sam's longing for normal is less sympathetic because it usually involves cutting Dean out completely or ignoring people (Kevin) who desperately need his help so that he can stick his head in the sand. Dean would have NEVER left loose ends like that if he ever planned on retiring/settling down. Hell, he warded Lisa's house and took precautions while both of Sam's girlfriends (Jessica and Amelia) didn't even know about the supernatural.

Agree 100% with all of this.

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, Mulva said:

Dean "vanished" in a massive explosion in a closed room.  It was perfectly reasonable for Sam to assume that Dean was part of the . . . organic matter splattered all over the walls.  Dean knew exactly where Sam was, and did absolutely nothing to free him.

Black goo all over the wall, no red blood/body parts.  But I can believe he thought Dean was dead, though considering how little that means in their world I'd think he might doublecheck.  IMO there's no excuse for Kevin, though.                    

And Dean said he gathered hundreds of books and tried everything he could to free him (despite him promising not to).  Should he have made another deal?  

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

Black goo all over the wall, no red blood/body parts.  But I can believe he thought Dean was dead, though considering how little that means in their world I'd think he might doublecheck.  IMO there's no excuse for Kevin, though.                    

And Dean said he gathered hundreds of books and tried everything he could to free him (despite him promising not to).  Should he have made another deal?  

Exactly right. I wouldn’t call Dean’s admittance that he tried to find a way to get Sam out of the cage “absolutely nothing”.

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

                 

And Dean said he gathered hundreds of books and tried everything he could to free him (despite him promising not to).  Should he have made another deal?  

Definitely not, but that's part of my issue. That he promised not to.  No, Dean didn't know he was going to die when he killed Dick Roman (and as far as I'm concerned he was dead because he was in Purgatory).  But, he did know in No Rest for the Wicked, and not only did he tell Sam to just keep hunting and not do anything stupid, he yelled at him when he got back and thought Sam was responsible.  Sam, in Dean's case, was doing what he thought he was supposed to.  I agree withyou that there's no excuse for KEvin.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Katy M

[ahrtee]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

he yelled at him when he got back and thought Sam was responsible. 

He said "I'm off the hook and you're on?"*  It wasn't that he thought Sam had done something to save him, he thought he'd done something that would send him to hell, which is exactly what he *didn't* want.  

*ETA: Didn't he also say "I didn't want to be saved that way"?  

Edited October 16, 2018 by ahrtee

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

He said "I'm off the hook and you're on?"  It wasn't that he thought Sam had done something to save him, he thought he'd done something that would send him to hell, which is exactly what he *didn't* want.  

I'm not seeing how that negates my point.  I highly doubt there would have been anything that Sam could have done to get Dean out of Purgatory without causing harm to himself or someone else.

[Lastcall]

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Black goo all over the wall, no red blood/body parts.  But I can believe he thought Dean was dead, though considering how little that means in their world I'd think he might doublecheck.  IMO there's no excuse for Kevin, though.                    

And Dean said he gathered hundreds of books and tried everything he could to free him (despite him promising not to).  Should he have made another deal?  

Also, Dean was cut off by Bobby and Cas and the world was safe at the time. Dean would not have gone back to Lisa if at the end of Swan Song Crowley had kidnapped Bobby or Cas. Dean said he spent all year looking for Sam (they even wrote a book about one of the attempts). Sam had two additional missions when Dean left, save Kevin and stop the Leviathans from reorganizing, Dean had none. Finally, Dean didn’t go back on the road when Sam came back but Sam was part of the Campbell army who condescendingly treated Dean like a rookie. Dean was needed by Lisa and Ben, Souless Sam was well supported at the time.

[gonzosgirrl]

18 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'm not seeing how that negates my point.  I highly doubt there would have been anything that Sam could have done to get Dean out of Purgatory without causing harm to himself or someone else.

If there was a rift to get out, there was probably a rift to get in - and no one died to open that. Not to mention that not so very long after, they found a taxi-driving reaper that opened up a door like it was NBD.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

If there was a rift to get out, there was probably a rift to get in - and no one died to open that. Not to mention that not so very long after, they found a taxi-driving reaper that opened up a door like it was NBD.

That's only because Dean was already out.  Kind of like Dean didn't think to ask Death to get Sam's soul out until later.  He scoured books for a whole year and didn't think of that until he realized that it was just Sam's soul.  Besides Sam didn't know Dean was in Purgatory.  He thought he was just normal dead.  And, he didn't know about the rift in Purgatory. And, he didn't know anything.  It's all very well to say he should have researched, but exactly what was he supposed to research?  Dean had a starting point. Sam didn't.  Sure, with hindsight and all, but going with just the knowledge that he had, he had nothing to research beyond leviathans (which brings us back to the fact that he should have looked for Kevin).  It took them a whole year just to figure out how to kill one, much less whatever it is you wanted Sam finding out. No, Sam did nothing wrong by not looking for Dean.  Just as Dean would have done nothing wrong had he not sold his soul for Sam. And, Sam would have done nothing wrong if he hadn't tried to sell his soul and then hooke dup with Ruby. And dean did nothing wrong by living his life with Lisa.   What's dead should stay dead.

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

He thought he was just normal dead. 

But why? There was no blood or bone or guts, just goo. None of the other leviathan goo seem particularly acidic, so why did he assume Dean or Cas were dead? Cas especially, since exploding angel should've been a little more of a light show. So no, I just don't agree that 'dead' should've been the assumption here. 

He could and should have exhausted all measures before giving up. There is room between nothing and selling your soul.

[Pondlass1]

Well it was all kind of silly that Dean stood there while Dick vibrated, but still, Sam should've tried.  Finding a way to purgatory should've been his first move since he knew that's where Levi's ended up.  As Gonzo pointed out, there was no human goo stuck on the walls.  And a dying Cas would've lit up the room. If Sam went into a deep depression and had a breakdown we need to see it  on screen. As it was, Sam seemed just fine.  He was free.

When Dean disappeared in time, Sam didn't have anything to go on either.  He didn't even know where in the expanse of time Dean was.  But he went right into research mode.  

[ILoveReading]

27 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Well it was all kind of silly that Dean stood there while Dick vibrated, but still, Sam should've tried.  Finding a way to purgatory should've been his first move since he knew that's where Levi's ended up.  As Gonzo pointed out, there was no human goo stuck on the walls.  And a dying Cas would've lit up the room. If Sam went into a deep depression and had a breakdown we need to see it  on screen. As it was, Sam seemed just fine.  He was free.

When Dean disappeared in time, Sam didn't have anything to go on either.  He didn't even know where in the expanse of time Dean was.  But he went right into research mode.  

Dean even figured out how to communicate with Sam from another decade. 

 

54 minutes ago, Katy M said:

He thought he was just normal dead

Immediately after Dean disappears Sam asks.  "Where are they Crowley?"  So it seems at that time he thinks they're alive. 

This part is not a direct response to any most, just my musings.

I have to wonder if Gamble, who also was a self-admitted Sam girl set up the purgatory storyline to do exactly what Dabb did with the Michael story.  Get Dean off screen so Sam and the other characters can breath.  Crowley specifically says that Sam will have stop the leviathans from organizing.    I wonder if she was trying to push this leader Sam agenda, but got derailed when when she was replaced and Carver went in a whole other direction. 

She's been praising Dabb multiple times on Twitter.

This is why I don't buy Sam as a leader.  If he wants to lead he had plenty of opportunities but never took them. 

[ahrtee]

It doesn't matter whether Sam (or Dean) succeeded in saving the other or not.  It was the *trying* that counted.  Dean didn't blame Sam for not getting him out of hell, and the main blame about Purgatory (before we got into Kevin) was "you *did* try, didn't you?"  All Sam had to say at that point was "yes," and no more hard feelings or need to justify.  Until Kevin, of course.  

Trying and failing and *then* giving up and settling down would have been accepted.  Personally, if I were Sam I would have called Jody, and I'm pretty sure her first words would have been: "Oh, no, I'm sorry.  Are you sure? Did you see the body?"  After all, she knows what they've been through.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

Well it was all kind of silly that Dean stood there while Dick vibrated, but still, Sam should've tried.  Finding a way to purgatory should've been his first move since he knew that's where Levi's ended up.  As Gonzo pointed out, there was no human goo stuck on the walls.  And a dying Cas would've lit up the room. If Sam went into a deep depression and had a breakdown we need to see it  on screen. As it was, Sam seemed just fine.  He was free.

When Dean disappeared in time, Sam didn't have anything to go on either.  He didn't even know where in the expanse of time Dean was.  But he went right into research mode.  

For me, Sam's worst 'crime' wasn't even assuming Dean was dead, it was the air of disappointment that he came back - like it inconvenienced him. Whether that was intentional or not, that's the impression this viewer got - and that was long before I ever went online or had any discussion of the show whatsoever. And then the complete lack of understanding that Dean was hurt by it. The 'move on, or I will' declaration is second only to the Purge speech on the list of things that turned me off the character.

Edited October 16, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

For me, Sam's worst 'crime' wasn't even assuming Dean was dead, it was the air of disappointment that he came back - like it inconvenienced him. Whether that was intentional or not, that's the impression this viewer got - and that was long before I ever went online or had any discussion of the show whatsoever. And then the complete lack of understanding that Dean was hurt by it. The 'move on, or I will' declaration is second only to the Purge speech on the list of things that turned me off the character.

I never got that he was disappointed.  If he were so disappointed, why wouldn't he just leave?  Dean wasn't holding him captive.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

It doesn't matter whether Sam (or Dean) succeeded in saving the other or not.  It was the *trying* that counted. 

This is the biggest problem, I don't care if Sam succeeded or not.  I cared that he never even tried. 

I didn't know where he was isn't an excuse.   How many times on this show have they said "we've investigate less."

If someone disappears law enforcement doesn't just shrug their shoulders.  They start with where the victim was last sceen, speak to friends and relatives, retrace steps of where they were supposed to be, check for predators who might be living in the area, etc.

Sam could have done the equivalent.  He was standing in leviathan headquaters.  He could have scoured for some clue.   He could have tried praying to Cas, monitored lore for unusual  signs.

Most of all he could have had faith in this brother.  Dean's scrappy and a survivor and has an ability to think outside the box. (or at least he did before Dabb took over).  He's manged to pull off the improbable before.  Plus, he had a fully powered angel to help protect him. 

Sam owed it to Dean to at least give him the benefit of the doubt. 

11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

For me, Sam's worst 'crime' wasn't even assuming Dean was dead, it was the air of disappointment that he came back - like it inconvenienced him. Whether that was intentional or not, that's the impression this viewer got -

+100.  He acted like he wished Dean never came back.   That's the impression I got too. \

I didn't even need Sam to apologize.  I just wanted him to to understand why Dean was so hurt.  If Sam couldn't figure that out, then people really need to stop using empathy as a Sam trait. It seems he only can truly empathize with someone if it connects back to him somehow.

10 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I never got that he was disappointed.  If he were so disappointed, why wouldn't he just leave?  Dean wasn't holding him captive.

He certainly acted like Dean was holding him captive.  I remember Sam complaining that free will was only for Dean.

[gonzosgirrl]

34 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I never got that he was disappointed.  If he were so disappointed, why wouldn't he just leave?  Dean wasn't holding him captive.

Because it's a theme for Sam throughout the series? It wasn't the first time or the last Sam played the martyr, and then blamed Dean (or John, or Ruby, or...) for the choices he made himself.  

[Lastcall]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I have to wonder if Gamble, who also was a self-admitted Sam girl set up the purgatory storyline to do exactly what Dabb did with the Michael story.  Get Dean off screen so Sam and the other characters can breath.  Crowley specifically says that Sam will have stop the leviathans from organizing.    I wonder if she was trying to push this leader Sam agenda, but got derailed when when she was replaced and Carver went in a whole other direction. 

I don’t know where I got this and it was years ago but the rumor was Gambles original intention was for Sam to organize the hunters and be the one to free Dean from purgatory. Never been able to find anything definite for what her season 8 would have been though.

[ILoveReading]

I re-watched Bedtime Stories. 

I miss when Dean was bad ass. 

In the end when the crossroads Demons says "You'll be glad when Deans' gone."  I think she struck a nerve. 

But I do believe that Sam doesn't like Dean very much.

[Lastcall]

7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I re-watched Bedtime Stories. 

I miss when Dean was bad ass. 

In the end when the crossroads Demons says "You'll be glad when Deans' gone."  I think she struck a nerve. 

But I do believe that Sam doesn't like Dean very much.

Yeah, makes you wonder how much he really wants Dean back when his minions are dancing around him singing how he is the specialist snowflake in the land.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Lastcall said:

Yeah, makes you wonder how much he really wants Dean back when his minions are dancing around him singing how he is the specialist snowflake in the land.

What happens when Dean comes back and thinks they should handle a situation by doing X and Sam thinks they should handle it by doing Y.  Is Sam going to start complaining about being put at the kiddie table again?  Is Dean going to be allowed to have an opinion other than yes, no or how high? 

This is why I'm dreading the aftermath of Dean.  How many lessons is Dean going to be made to learn?  How many of the AU hunters are going to tell Dean to stop bossing Sam around?

[AwesomO4000]

10 hours ago, mertensia said:

Well, there's also the possibility that to Carver it does all make sense. If he believes that shacking up with Amelia shows maturity, no more co-dependence, whatever, then to him showing that proves his point.

I have no problem with Carver thinking that shacking up with Amelia supposedly showed maturity. I may have thought that Amelia was an awful character, and I wasn't convinced of this supposed "true love forever" relationship Carver kept trying to push, but I could've bought that that was what he was trying to sell.

As I outlined in my previous post, it was everything else that I thought contradicted Carver's insistence that he was going for a "maturity" storyline and that made no sense. And Carver had no excuse that it was maybe another writer who just wasn't with the program, because it was his episode that had 1) Sam abandoning Kevin 2) Sam shrugging his shoulders at maybe having leviathan running around and 3) not having Sam even confirm that Dean was dead.

My point was: in what logical thought process are any of those things considered "mature?" Any idiot can shack up with someone. What makes it "mature" or not is what else they do along with it. And I would be hard pressed to agree that anyone could argue running off and ignoring your responsibilities to innocent people can be considered a "mature" thing to do. And since Carver's episode was the one that had Sam do that - and then pointed to it with Kevin's "Eeeat me"s*** to show that Carver knew it was wrong and a ridiculous thing to do - for me I'm hard pressed to believe any of his "but Sam was acting maturely" insistences.

I'm more inclined to think that he had other motivation, but that he was trying to cover them up with a "but Sam was doing the mature thing by letting Dean go."  Because Carver didn't even let Sam do that maturely when he made sure that Sam didn't even try to make sure he couldn't save Dean. And what purpose did that serve except to make Sam look bad? Would Sam have looked any less "mature" if he'd said, "I looked into it, Dean, but it was too risky. I couldn't chance messing with purgatory and letting those monsters out again. I'm so sorry?" I actually think that that would have made Sam's decision more mature, so for me, there was likely other motivation for having Sam not say that.

Nope, not buying it. Carver wanted "brotherly conflict" and his shiny, new character Benny to look like a hero, and Sam admitting he had looked for Dean would lessen those things, so Carver couldn't have that... so he threw Sam under a big Greyhound bus to get his brotherly conflict and "awesome brother" Benny. Instead of admitting it though - or even correcting it, which would've been so simple - he preferred to let Sam's character be trashed.

And that's why I'll never buy the argument that Carver didn't intend to make Sam look badly. It was right there in his first episode with Kevin's "Eeeeat me"s what he planned to do with Sam's character (make him look foolish.) And the later jokes about Sam "hitting a dog" and what that meant - a huge dig at Sam every time - showed, to me, that that was really what Carver had intended all along. If not, he would've let it drop and / or tried to repair Sam's damaged characterization. But brotherly angst was more important than Sam's characterization apparently.

*** What was I supposed to find Sam abandoning Kevin amusing? No, leaving a teenage kid to the devices of a demon who likely was going to torture him is not funny. And then when he does manage to escape on his own, having Sam completely ignoring his pleas for help is equally not funny. And having Sam do that and then making a joke out of it shows how little Carver cared about the character or how he was trashing him. I was going to comment on that more, and tell Carver exactly what he could do with that sentiment, but it isn't fit to print.

44 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Because it's a theme for Sam throughout the series? It wasn't the first time or the last Sam played the martyr, and then blamed Dean (or John, or Ruby, or...) for the choices he made himself.  

Fairly true, but until Carver, Sam generally eventually realized that it was his own choices and took responsibility. I could point to multiple episodes, but we all know the show's history, so I don't think it's necessary. (but I would be glad to if need be - just say the word.)

It wasn't until Carver that it became something else, and we didn't have Sam apologizing or taking responsibility... and that's because as I outlined above, I don't think Carver's intention was to show Sam as "mature" but to show the opposite and trash his character in favor of Dean and especially his own original characters (like Benny and Gadreel).

Interestingly Carver also has Dean playing the martyr and not accepting responsibility at times (which in my opinion is out of character) and he lets that stand as well, but with Dean it ends up being okay, because Dean is shown to be right anyway, so whatever.

Apparently - in my opinion - Carver wasn't big on characters taking responsibility for their actions and didn't seem to care how that made the characters look.

4 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

Dean, on the other hand, vanished by surprise and Sam had no reason to believe that his brother was dead. A mere eleven episodes ago, in 7.12 Time After Time, Dean vanished in a similar way when Chronos transported him to 1944. Did Sam just shrug and throw up his hands and leave? No, he actually researched and managed to get his brother back. The fact that Sam ADMITTED that he didn't even try this time is ridiculous and made him look like he couldn't give less of a shit about Dean, and was simply looking for an excuse to run away.

Which is why I contend that Carver's "maturity" thing is bullshit. When is running away from your responsibilities considered a mature thing to do? Not looking for Dean wasn't even something Sam had done in the recent past. Carver just decided to thumb his nose at Sam's characterization previously - and as you pointed out, an example shown just 11 episodes earlier - and make Sam act however he wanted him to, actual characterization be damned.

As you said, it was ridiculous and made Sam look bad, and it makes no sense to me that that wouldn't be obvious to almost anyone who had been with the show any length of time. I just don't buy it.

22 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

But I do believe that Sam doesn't like Dean very much.

I could argue that there are almost as many times when Sam appears to like Dean more than Dean likes Sam... almost all of season 5 is a good example. Season 6B through 7. And season 10. Maybe season 3, too. Probably season 11, also. I guess it depends on the circumstances and who the showrunner is at the time.

During the early Carver years? Yeah. Sam was written as a complete jerk. Not even I thought Sam cared all that much about Dean. ...Have I mentioned lately how glad I am that Carver is gone?

But I'd be hard pressed to say that Dean showed much Sam affection - or at least not more than was going the opposite direction - during season 10 (granted there was the mark). But even during much of season 7 when Dean was preoccupied with grief and revenge, the affection was more from Sam to Dean rather than the other way around.

Edited October 16, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I could argue that there are almost as many times when Sam appears to like Dean more than Dean likes Sam... almost all of season 5 is a good example. Season 6B through 7. And season 10. Maybe season 3, too. Probably season 11, also. I guess it depends on the circumstances and who the showrunner is at the time.

During the early Carver years? Yeah. Sam was written as a complete jerk. Not even I thought Sam cared all that much about Dean. ...Have I mentioned lately how glad I am that Carver is gone?

But I'd be hard pressed to say that Dean showed all that much Sam-love during season 10 (granted there was the mark). But even during much of season 7 when Dean was preoccupied with grief and revenge, the affection was pretty much from Sam to Dean rather than the other w

Maybe I should have said that I don't think either Sam or Dean like each other that much.

They and the world are better off if the brothers are apart.  I think the show, unintentional as it might have been shows us they flourish when they're separated. 

But at least I feel Dean has respect for Sam's abilities and skills.   With Sam, not so much.

Edited October 16, 2018 by ILoveReading

[AwesomO4000]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

But at least I feel Dean has respect for Sam's abilities and skills. 

Even there I think it varies. Dean is much more likely to think Sam is going to screw everything up than the other way around. Season 5, season 8, season 7 even... when Dean killed Amy, because he thought Sam's judgement on the subject was suspect. Season 4 especially. And again season 10.

And sure Sam does screw up sometimes - no doubt - but that Dean expects it still says to me he thinks Sam's abilities and skills are questionable.

Unless you don't consider judgement and reasoning an ability - I do - then I guess it's debatable.

But actually as the show has gone on, there aren't really that many skills Sam has anymore that other characters don't also have. Maybe his research skills, but big deal - most characters can research and are just as likely to find the information as Sam. Computer hacking went to Charlie and Frank and Dean just as much as Sam. Picture recognition recently went to Jack. I'm drawing a blank on anything else... maybe languages? But fans even get upset when the writing tries to give that to Sam and wants Dean to know those, too, so... I'm not really sure what's left.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Season 5,

Sam more than earned Dean's lack of trust and then didn't think he really needed to earn it back. When it counted, when Sam was going to say yes, Dean had his back, even apologizing for his lack of trust.  (Something he did three times).

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

season 8

I don't think  Dean didn't want Sam to do the trials because he didn't trust Sam or thought he would screw up.  He wanted to do them because he felt he was expendable and was sure God's obstacle course was a death sentence.  Sam was the one that didn't listen.  Dean was supportive of Sam all through the trials.  In Clip show, for example, we have Dean standing up for Sam when the priest asked if he was okay.

 

6 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

season 7 even... when Dean killed Amy, because he thought Sam's judgement on the subject was suspect

Sam's judgement was suspect.  He was hallucinating and having a hard time to tell reality from fantasy.  You don't trust someone in that situation not matter how much respect you have for their abilities.  Just the episode before Sam went for a drive with his hallucination and almost killed Dean. When Sam took off in the middle of the night Dean shouldn't be blamed for his first thought being Sam might have wondered off with Lucifer again.  Anyone would think that.   In fact, Sam shouldn't have been hunting period.

 

13 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And again season 10.

I'm trying to think of times when Dean didn't have faith in Sam's abilites?  Wasn't Sam the one constantly saying that Dean was giving up and in trouble and getting worse?  Wasn't Sam the one lying and doing things behind Deans' back? 

[Reganne]

3 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

. If Sam went into a deep depression and had a breakdown we need to see it  on screen. As it was, Sam seemed just fine.  He was free.

Now this is one thing I can agree with you on.  However, it's clear that they couldnt be bothered with showing us Sam's mental health or anything for that matter in the beginning of season 8.  The writing for Sam's character in that season was terrible.  He is one of the main characters on the show and they couldnt take the time to show us his emotional state after he lost everyone.  Instead they write a lame story about him hitting a dog?  

[AwesomO4000]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam more than earned Dean's lack of trust and then didn't think he really needed to earn it back. When it counted, when Sam was going to say yes, Dean had his back, even apologizing for his lack of trust.  (Something he did three times).

I disagree that Sam didn't think that he had to earn Dean's trust back - he spent all of season 5 trying to earn Dean's trust back. After his revelation in "Good God, Y'All," Sam tried to follow Dean's lead, deferred to him when he could, took Dean's digs and criticism and tried to be the best hunting partner he could be... and if Dean didn't trust Sam's ability to hunt, then he shouldn't have been hunting with him. Not pretending he would hunt with him, but doing passive-aggressive things to make that hunting difficult and putting people's lives in danger.

(And I don't want to rehash "Fallen Idols." Not only is it just one episode, I don't even agree it was saying what others think it says - at all - so those arguments for me are moot. I only take the words that are actually in the dialogue... not other words people think are implied. So that argument is a non-starter for me.)

Your "when it counted" only came after Dean had to be tracked down, wrestled back by an angel,*** and put under house arrest (twice), because Dean still didn't have any faith in Sam's resolve or character, despite Sam having previously shaken off influence from Famine that not even Castiel could shake off, and resisting his blood addiction when it counted. Dean decided that only he had the ability to fix this problem. He didn't even trust Sam to listen to his reasoning or have any input at all.

And arguably, the main way Sam earned back Dean's trust was because... he deferred to Dean and trusted Dean's judgement as much as or more than his own, not really because of anything Sam did or decided on his own per se.

*** (and no I don't condone Castiel's later beating of Dean when he escaped. Castiel has his own - in my opinion - even worse responsibility issues than Sam does).

36 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't think  Dean didn't want Sam to do the trials because he didn't trust Sam or thought he would screw up.  He wanted to do them because he felt he was expendable and was sure God's obstacle course was a death sentence.  Sam was the one that didn't listen.  Dean was supportive of Sam all through the trials.  In Clip show, for example, we have Dean standing up for Sam when the priest asked if he was okay.

I wasn't talking about the trials really. I was more talking about Benny and keeping him a secret and the questioning of Sam's hunting ability - which again, if Dean didn't want to hunt with Sam or trust hunting with him or trust Sam's reactions to Benny***... just don't.

*** Which weirdly shouldn't have even been a thing, except Carver made it one. Since when had Sam not given a monster the benefit of the doubt before if there was reason to? But all of a sudden Dean is afraid to tell Sam about Benny? This was just angst Carver put in that shouldn't have even been there in my opinion.

50 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam's judgement was suspect.  He was hallucinating and having a hard time to tell reality from fantasy.  You don't trust someone in that situation not matter how much respect you have for their abilities.  Just the episode before Sam went for a drive with his hallucination and almost killed Dean. When Sam took off in the middle of the night Dean shouldn't be blamed for his first thought being Sam might have wondered off with Lucifer again.  Anyone would think that.   In fact, Sam shouldn't have been hunting period.

I agree that Sam likely shouldn't have been hunting.. and I emphasized the wrong thing here. It was more Dean lying about it and justifying it with he couldn't trust Sam's mental state that I objected to. If he can trust Sam enough to hunt with him for weeks after that, then he could trust Sam with the truth. As it was presented, I didn't buy that Dean was going to tell Sam about Amy unless there was a reason he had to do so, yet he got all pissy because Sam was angry about being lied to.

What I think Dean should have done was find a way to keep tabs on Amy if possible and wait until Sam was a little more lucid and then decide what to do about Amy later, together.

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Wasn't Sam the one constantly saying that Dean was giving up and in trouble and getting worse?  Wasn't Sam the one lying and doing things behind Deans' back? 

No, Sam wasn't "constantly saying that Dean was giving up." Actually at the outset, Sam had faith that Dean could beat the mark and told Dean so, he even supported Dean's decision to come back rather than stay a kid in "About a Boy" and said that they would find another way. It wasn't until later that Sam tried to find a way to get rid of it and lied to Dean, because Dean wouldn't consider the option and insisted they not do it.

Dean really didn't have much faith from the beginning that Sam could find a way to help him... and didn't really want Sam to. Dean thought that if he couldn't find a way, that there wasn't one and didn't really trust anyone else to look.

Of course the narrative made Dean entirely right about that, because of course Sam had to be a screw up - thanks, Carver - but Dean's skepticism was still there.

And when Charlie died, Dean just assumed it was Sam's fault somehow and that Sam didn't have safeguards in place or consider the risks. (When in actuality Charlie getting killed was her own damn fault and she knew the risks from the very beginning and knew how dangerous the Stynes were and she just decided that she was above those risks).

[gonzosgirrl]

4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I could argue that there are almost as many times when Sam appears to like Dean more than Dean likes Sam... almost all of season 5 is a good example. Season 6B through 7. And season 10. Maybe season 3, too. Probably season 11, also. I guess it depends on the circumstances and who the showrunner is at the time.

I think Dean has disliked, even hated, some of the things Sam did, ie, demon blood, choosing Ruby over him, not looking for him in Purgatory, etc but never* Sam himself. On the other hand, Sam often gives the impression he is just better, smarter and socially superior to Dean in every way and is often embarrassed by him.

*I think the one exception to that might have been his abandoning Kevin - I think that really did lower his estimation of Sam.

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think Dean has disliked, even hated, some of the things Sam did, ie, demon blood, choosing Ruby over him, not looking for him in Purgatory, etc but never* Sam himself.

I'm not entirely sure about that. Dean sometimes complains about what a buzz-kill Sam is, and sometimes seems to have more fun with other people. Gordon, for example, and Castiel. And that was also Dean's interpretation in his explanation in "Tall Tales" where he reduced Sam's dialogue to a bunch of "blah blah blahs."

But in my opinion, it's normal and expected for two people who are in each other's orbit as much as Sam and Dean are to sometimes need a break from each other and maybe want to associate with someone else instead, and for that reason I don't seem to hold Sam and Dean sometimes getting annoyed with each other against them like some here seem to do.

But I like both Sam and Dean, so I will admit to not really getting much of the Sam dislike I see here a lot. *shrug*

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

On the other hand, Sam often gives the impression he is just better, smarter and socially superior to Dean in every way and is often embarrassed by him.

This happens every once in a while, but I wouldn't call it the norm. And some writers like to hit that more than others,* maybe because, like having Dean eat sloppily or being a horn dog,*** it's an easy go to. But I think just as often Sam follows Dean's lead and even used to indulge some of Dean's semi-humiliating stunts^^^ Dean used to like to pull on Sam without too much complaint and seemed to accept that it was part of Dean's process in how he works a case. I mean some of those things were arguably embarrassing for Sam, and Sam played put upon, yet at some point in discussing their strategies, Sam agreed to do them - or at least didn't object - and when it came time, he played along.

And sometimes Dean is trying for exasperated reactions from Sam, and I think Sam plays his part.

So I think some of this is part of their brotherly "shtick" and doesn't necessarily reflect how either really feels. But that's my interpretation of what I see. I don't seem to see Sam and Dean as rigidly as some people do. I accept that they grow and change - and I have seen them do that - so what might have characterized Sam more frequently earlier, I don't think applied later on.

But that's just my opinion.

* Especially annoying was the Walkman thing that seemed out of place with the rest of the episode. I think maybe there was a reason that that writer only wrote two episodes (and the second one wasn't very Sam-friendly in that regard either).

*** Neither of which I think is the norm for Dean. The messy eating especially - unless done to annoy Sam, because it's amusing - would seem to contradict Dean's somewhat orderly nature about other things.

^^^ By those I mean the covers Dean used to come up with for Sam that often involved embarrassing Sam in front of whoever it was they were getting information from.

Edited October 17, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[tessathereaper]

On 10/13/2018 at 7:24 PM, SueB said:

Dabb also said that writing without Dean was extremely hard.   I just don’t buy this ‘Dabb hates Dean’ theory.  He needs Dean too much. 

Dabb also lies, so there's that.  He didn't seem to have a hard time writing for Sam and I think he has a hard time writing for Dean even when Dean's there so.... I think there is plenty support for the Dabb hates Dean theory, and probably Jensen along with him.  

[devlin]

I am trusting Jensen to be able to rise above the writing as he has been able to for the last 13 years. They could write dean rocking in a corner or running from any danger and Jensen would still be able to tell a compelling and believable story. The writers can pimp sam as this awe inspiring incredible leader but to me it’s all tell and no show.

[tessathereaper]

16 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Sam wanted Dean to be happy (or at least as happy as he could be) after his death. Dean, apparently, did not want that for Sam. Sam expressed no resentment that Dean hadn't done everything possible to save him from the cage and sympathized deeply with Dean losing Lisa. That's a marked contrast to how Dean handled Amelia and Sam losing her. 

Again, it's the difference in how similar storylines are handed so differently and it's an unfortunate trend that Dean's longing for normal is usually painted as sad while with Sam it's painted as being selfish. And Dean's resentment of Sam's few moments of "normal" (like seeing him having an actual Thanksgiving dinner as a kid during Dark Side of the Moon) are quite clear IMO.

 

No he didn't want Dean to be happy, he wanted Dean to do what he wanted Dean to do.  It was a choice Dean wouldn't have made on his own for GOOD reason.  He only did it for Sam.  As Jensen said, it wasn't really in character for Dean which is why  he didn't like the whole "domesticated" Dean situation.  And Dean DID try to find a way to get Sam out, he talked about his research while still trying to keep his promise to Sam so he was trying to find a way to do it that wouldn't cause more problems, he was unsuccessful but it's canon that he tried.  They've been through this too many times for any ideas about "well maybe he's part of the goo" to come across as even remotely realistic unless it was wishful thinking on Sam's part that just gave the excuse to not look, because he didn't really want Dean back anyway.  It's not different than disappearing in a blinding flash of light like he did a few episodes before in the time travel episode.  At least not enough to have not tried.

Sam on the other hand did nothing and seemed proud of the fact that he did nothing and he whined about his organic food or lack thereof and then we find out he and Amelia were over before Dean ever got back, meanwhile he spent the whole time acting like Dean was to blame for the fact that he doesn't have life anymore.  Oh and he also spent the whole time lying to Amelia much like he did Jessica - didn't tell her about his real life or anything which meant everything they had was built upon lies anyway.    And he seemed annoyed Dean came back which was probably the worst thing, it was like inside his head he was thinking "Dammit, I thought I was done with him finally" he was immediately annoyed with him over everything.  I mean dude spent a year in Purgatory not sleeping or eating, maybe he's not in the greatest state of mind the first few days, how about not acting like he should be feeling sorry for you having to give up your organic apples lifestyle and chick you were lying to the whole time.

Edited October 17, 2018 by tessathereaper

[devlin]

7 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

No he didn't want Dean to be happy, he wanted Dean to do what he wanted Dean to do.  It was a choice Dean wouldn't have made on his own for GOOD reason.  He only did it for Sam.  As Jensen said, it wasn't really in character for Dean which is why  he didn't like the whole "domesticated" Dean situation.  And Dean DID try to find a way to get Sam out, he talked about his research while still trying to keep his promise to Sam so he was trying to find a way to do it that wouldn't cause more problems, he was unsuccessful but it's canon that he tried.  They've been through this too many times for any ideas about "well maybe he's part of the goo" to come across as even remotely realistic unless it was wishful thinking on Sam's part that just gave the excuse to not look, because he didn't really want Dean back anyway.  It's not different than disappearing in a blinding flash of light like he did a few episodes before in the time travel episode.  At least not enough to have not tried.

Sam on the other hand did nothing and seemed proud of the fact that he did nothing and he whined about his organic food or lack thereof and then we find out he and Amelia were over before Dean ever got back, meanwhile he spent the whole time acting like Dean was to blame for the fact that he doesn't have life anymore.  Oh and he also spent the whole time lying to Amelia much like he did Jessica - didn't tell her about his real life or anything which meant everything they had was built upon lies anyway.    And he seemed annoyed Dean came back which was probably the worst thing, it was like inside his head he was thinking "Dammit, I thought I was done with him finally" he was immediately annoyed with him over everything.  I mean dude spent a year in Purgatory not sleeping or eating, maybe he's not in the greatest state of mind the first few days, how about not acting like he should be feeling sorry for you having to give up your organic apples lifestyle and chick you were lying to the whole time.

I love this entire post! I am not sure where this idea that dean craves a normal life comes from. It has always been sam’s desire.

[companionenvy]

7 hours ago, devlin said:

I love this entire post! I am not sure where this idea that dean craves a normal life comes from. It has always been sam’s desire.

But I think that's one of the ironies of the early portion of the show.  Sam thinks he wants a normal life, and Dean - at least on the surface -- thinks he loves hunting, but it isn't that simple. In some ways, Sam is much more similar to John than Dean is, in his obsessive pursuit of the monster, morality (at times) be damned, while there is a part of Dean that craves family and normalcy. He is living a conventional life in the djinn world, which is in some respects a reflection of his desires. He sees Lisa and Ben with the African-dream root, and while he does ultimately return to hunting, I don't think that's entirely because he found life with them inadequate; rather, it is that he can't duck the burden of knowing what is out there (which is why, wrong as it is, it is appropriate that he takes their memories of everything hunting-related). In the Smith and Wesson AU, Sam is the one who chafes more strongly against their corporate drone life; Dean seems very comfortable there. And, of course, Dean is the one who "nests" at the bunker and thinks of it as home, whereas Sam takes a more utilitarian approach. 

Sam is the one who a has actually sought a normal life in a more sustained way.  But honestly? I think Dean's the one who really wants it more.

[gonzosgirrl]

17 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

But I think that's one of the ironies of the early portion of the show.  Sam thinks he wants a normal life, and Dean - at least on the surface -- thinks he loves hunting, but it isn't that simple. In some ways, Sam is much more similar to John than Dean is, in his obsessive pursuit of the monster, morality (at times) be damned, while there is a part of Dean that craves family and normalcy. He is living a conventional life in the djinn world, which is in some respects a reflection of his desires. He sees Lisa and Ben with the African-dream root, and while he does ultimately return to hunting, I don't think that's entirely because he found life with them inadequate; rather, it is that he can't duck the burden of knowing what is out there (which is why, wrong as it is, it is appropriate that he takes their memories of everything hunting-related). In the Smith and Wesson AU, Sam is the one who chafes more strongly against their corporate drone life; Dean seems very comfortable there. And, of course, Dean is the one who "nests" at the bunker and thinks of it as home, whereas Sam takes a more utilitarian approach. 

Sam is the one who a has actually sought a normal life in a more sustained way.  But honestly? I think Dean's the one who really wants it more.

I agree with this insight. Well put.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Sam is the one who a has actually sought a normal life in a more sustained way.  But honestly? I think Dean's the one who really wants it more.

I disagree.  I think there is a part of Dean that wants a normal life but he's accepted that its not something he can have.  So he makes the best of a bad situation.  He appreciates all the little things in life.  That's why I think he nested.  He's a walking definition of when life hands you lemons make lemonade.

  I remember reading a copy of a script for the episode Home.  The there was more to the scene where Dean tells Sam what he remembers.  He says that he remembered their mom  giving him milkshakes and that that it was the last time he ever felt safe.  So I always thought this is what normal represents to Dean and what he craves most of all.  Safety and security and knowing his loved ones were okay.  I think Dean needs family and friends.  It doesn't matter if that's an old bunker or a house with a white picket fence.  

I always believed because of that line in home and from Jensen's portrayal that he loved the idea of what Lisa and Ben represented, more than he love them.  I'm not saying he didn't care about them. he obviously did but I don't think Dean was really ever in love with Lisa.   He very much came across as a guy going thought the motions. He might have been holding a job and having barbecues but we know his mind was on Sam the whole time.  He was trying to figure out how to get Sam out of the cage, which meant there was a good chance he wasn't sleeping much.  Which we saw when it seemed like Dean had been awake all night.  Plus, we know he was having nightmares and drinking.  (That is why what Bobby, Cas and "Sam" did was exceptionally cruel.  But that;s for another post). 

That doesnt' really sound like someone who found what he was looking for to me.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

That doesnt' really sound like someone who found what he was looking for to me.

No, but I do believe if he could have it and know the world (and Sam) was still safe, he would. Which I think is what @companionenvy was getting at? Sorry if I read that wrong.

I 100% agree with you that Dean has accepted and embraced the life he does have, made that lemonade wherever he could. I don't think that precludes dreaming of something better though.

[Pondlass1]

Had Dean been born into an apple pie picket fence life then he'd be Jensen Ackles.  Kind of.  Dean would be a faithful husband, awesome father, hard worker and never sleep around.  He'd probably hold a job with a touch of action and danger and one where he worked with passion and imagination.  

But Dean was born into peril and a transient  life.  At age 4 he was dad to his own dad and protector to his young brother. And, thankfully, Dean was of a mindset and strength of character that he could handle it all.  It would have been a different story (my opinion only, folks) had Sam been the eldest and the same life thrust upon him at age 4.  

Both brothers have traits passed down from their father.  (None from their dippy mother thank goodness). But we never really got to know John did we.  Not the happily married father.  We've only seen the heavy drinking raging hunter determined to wipe out YEDs and demons.

If only they could find the right actors and writers I'd love to see the story of Dean and Sam - the Formative Years  on screen.

[Lastcall]

9 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

If only they could find the right actors and writers I'd love to see the story of Dean and Sam - the Formative Years  on screen.

It’s really their best shot at a successful spin off and you wouldn’t waste an episode back door piloting. It would still be about Sam and Dean.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Lastcall