S12.E13: Family Feud

[shang yiet]

It's been a long time since Sam holds it against anybody, for better or for worse.  He forgives instantly nowadays (unfortunately) and has no problem being forced to work with enemies. It looks like it's heading down the 'Sam misguided, Dean voice of reason' track.

[Mick Lady]

6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I wasn't telling you to forget it, I was saying I had forgotten I had promised myself I wasn't getting into debates about time travel. It never ends well. Plus, with this episode, it's just not worth it, IMO. 

I'm getting a kick out of your posts here Dot! I get your frustration, and I'm loving your repeating "forget it!"

Don't ever change!

[catrox14]

 @rue721

 

Quote

wonder if Gavin's sacrifice is foreshadowing a similar sacrifice that Mary is going to make. I wonder if she's going to go back in time to die when she was "supposed to" in order to save someone *she* loves from going down "the wrong path." I mean, what if she decides to retroactively rescue John like Gavin decided to retroactively rescued Fiona?

This would be really interesting if they did it. I just wonder how hard it would be to get JDM for an episode. 

[Mick Lady]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think the small difference here between the current situation and the old Dean - John - Sam situation is that in the old situation, Sam was fairly certain that Dean and John would be okay. Sam always knew of Dean and John as close. So if Sam did something to make John angry / annoyed / etc. that wouldn't affect Dean and John very much. And Sam even had fairly concrete proof of this when Sam and John had the big argument and Sam left for college, because Dean and John still hunted together and appeared to remain close.

But Sam doesn't have that same luxury right now, or at least he's not looking at it that way. I think Sam is afraid that if Dean says something to scare Mary off, Mary leaves and is gone from his (Sam's) life too. So he's not just playing go between between Mary and Dean, he's trying to hold on to his own tentative relationship with Mary. Even if most of it is one-sided on his end, he's not ready to give it up.

Awesom, I'm sick of "liking" your posts, but this has sent me down a road I haven't considered. I'm going to watch this season with a whole new perspective now! Sweet!

[auntvi]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

This kind of makes it seem like Sam sees Mary as some kind of wilting flower that needs to be protected from mean ole Dean.

I don't think so.  Sam is so afraid that he, himself will say or do something , or even just be, to push her away. It's not protecting her, it's protecting himself from disappointment. As far as Sam is concerned, it's all his fear that he isn't good enough or doesn't say the right thing, so if Mary turns away from them it's all going to be his fault.

[catrox14]

Just now, auntvi said:

I don't think so.  Sam is so afraid that he, himself will say or do something , or even just be, to push her away. It's not protecting her, it's protecting himself from disappointment. As far as Sam is concerned, it's all his fear that he isn't good enough or doesn't say the right thing, so if Mary turns away from them it's all going to be his fault.

 

I'm not sure I understand. It sounds like you're saying that Sam was controlling what Dean was saying to Mary because he's afraid Mary will find fault with Sam for what Dean was doing.  Am I misunderstanding?

[auntvi]

Not controlling, more softening. I don't think Sam was directing criticism toward Dean. He was more trying to keep the mood friendly.

Of course as soon as Mary dropped the BMoL bomb, Sam's plans/wishes went up in smoke.

[catrox14]

Just now, auntvi said:

Not controlling, more softening. I don't think Sam was directing criticism toward Dean. He was more trying to keep the mood friendly.

Of course as soon as Mary dropped the BMoL bomb, Sam's plans/wishes went up in smoke.

Even so, it's seems to still be putting the onus on Dean if things go south with Mary.  Maybe I'm just not understanding how whatever Dean is thinking and feeling towards Mary would make Mary upset with Sam.  I feel like I'm getting the wrong end of the stick here.

[SueB]

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

No, I'm not forgetting them at all. I just didn't really see them as instances of Dean being shown as wrong.

(Rest of this post taken to the "Bitterness" thread, just in case. I do it for you @SueB!)

And I ADORE you for that.  

Regarding Sam and Dean's interaction about drama, I take that as Sam playing peacemaker to keep things light and communication lines open.  I think Dean knows EXACTLY that and doesn't take offense.  He knows the role Sam has taken on.  I'm pretty proud of Dean for expressing himself ANYWAY.  

From an end-state perspective (before the conversation went REALLY BAD), Dean let Mary know he feels like she's distant and Sam let Mary know that they both are happy that she is there (and please don't go away again).

Edited February 25, 2017 by SueB

[auntvi]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I feel like I'm getting the wrong end of the stick here.

That would be Crowley, actually. :p

Basically as far as Sam's concerned, the onus is on himself. He's not going to blame Dean, he's going to blame himself. It's not a sensible thought process, it's all from a faulty (or skewed?) point of view.

Edited February 25, 2017 by auntvi

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, auntvi said:

Basically as far as Sam's concerned, the onus is on himself. He's not going to blame Dean, he's going to blame himself. It's not a sensible thought process, it's all from a faulty (or skewed?) point of view.

Then why is he trying to manage how Dean is reacting to Mary? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm legitimately not getting it.  :/

[MysteryGuest]

Just some random thoughts...

I think it's only been a few weeks at most since the last episode.  Mary wouldn't still be playing the "I'm tired" card, if it had been longer than that.  I also don't believe we can go by Kelly's pregnancy status, because even she has no idea when she's due.  I'm guessing demon babies grow at light speed, so she should be giving birth any minute now.  

I won't even begin to comment on the science behind time travel, but I do think it was Sam and Dean who first brought up the option of Gavin going back to his own time.  They briefly mentioned finding the locket and destroying it, and then immediately said something like "but that might not even work", and then went right from there to suggesting that Gavin sacrifice himself.  It did seem more than a little out of character for Sam and Dean.  But with so much other stuff crammed into this episode, I guess there was no time for that to be their last resort.

I'm really going to be upset if Sam and Dean agree to work with he BMOL, but I feel almost certain that they will.  They'll end up giving in to her because she's their mom, or because they feel they have to protect her.  I hate the idea of these killing machines the BMOL use, and it's going to piss me off to see Sam and Dean hunt that way.  I really hope the show doesn't go there. 

[SueB]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

Just some random thoughts...

I think it's only been a few weeks at most since the last episode.  Mary wouldn't still be playing the "I'm tired" card, if it had been longer than that.  I also don't believe we can go by Kelly's pregnancy status, because even she has no idea when she's due.  I'm guessing demon babies grow at light speed, so she should be giving birth any minute now.  

I won't even begin to comment on the science behind time travel, but I do think it was Sam and Dean who first brought up the option of Gavin going back to his own time.  They briefly mentioned finding the locket and destroying it, and then immediately said something like "but that might not even work", and then went right from there to suggesting that Gavin sacrifice himself.  It did seem more than a little out of character for Sam and Dean.  But with so much other stuff crammed into this episode, I guess there was no time for that to be their last resort.

I'm really going to be upset if Sam and Dean agree to work with he BMOL, but I feel almost certain that they will.  They'll end up giving in to her because she's their mom, or because they feel they have to protect her.  I hate the idea of these killing machines the BMOL use, and it's going to piss me off to see Sam and Dean hunt that way.  I really hope the show doesn't go there. 

- Yes!
- Out of character due to expediency -- a hallmark of Buck-Lemming
- Me too.  I think it will be temporary at best.  The BMoL are the bad guys, WE know they are the bad guys.  The season won't end well for them.  I'm SURE of it.

[auntvi]

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Then why is he trying to manage how Dean is reacting to Mary?

I'm getting confused, too! He's not trying to manage Dean's reaction per se, he's not in Dean's head & he can't do that. He's trying to take the edge off what Dean said, so that the mood in the room is friendly & relaxed & everybody smiles & Mom loves him. It's not real, but Sam wants to believe.

[rue721]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Then why is he trying to manage how Dean is reacting to Mary? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm legitimately not getting it.  :/

I don't think Sam was trying to manage Dean's reaction, I think he was trying to manage MARY'S reaction.

Sam wants Mary feeling welcome, comfortable, happy, loving...so that she'll stick around. He's afraid of anything rocking that boat.

He's not trying to protect Mary herself, he's trying to protect his/their very very fragile relationship with her.

[catrox14]

Just now, rue721 said:

I don't think Sam was trying to manage Dean's reaction, I think he was trying to manage MARY'S reaction.

Sam wants Mary feeling welcome, comfortable, happy, loving...so that she'll stick around. He's afraid of anything rocking that boat.

He's not trying to protect Mary herself, he's trying to protect his/their very very fragile relationship with her.

But he said nothing to Mary when she started getting on Dean's case about his "face". I guess I don't understand how Sam's fear of losing Mary's relationship means he should shut down Dean's rightful anger. That's still putting the onus on Dean if things go sideways.

Oh well, I'll drop it because I don't get it.

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

 I'm guessing demon babies grow at light speed, so she should be giving birth any minute now.  

I'm guessing she'll give birth in May.  As in...when's the last episode? 

Can't you see it...hospital, Kelly in labor, then a final painful push and..."it's a boy!" then go to black, and a voice saying "oh my God!" (or, conversely, having the doctor's eyes go black--or Luci red.)  --END SEASON--

[Boopsahoy]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

They briefly mentioned finding the locket and destroying it, and then immediately said something like "but that might not even work", and then went right from there to suggesting that Gavin sacrifice himself.

Honestly this didn't bother me because I had that thought before they did. Does that make me a bad person? Its another case of a person not fitting in or comfortable-just like Mary.

[MysteryGuest]

10 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Can't you see it...hospital, Kelly in labor, then a final painful push and..."it's a boy!" then go to black, and a voice saying "oh my God!" (or, conversely, having the doctor's eyes go black--or Luci red.)  --END SEASON--

Sadly, yes...and it's making me very depressed.  

[ahrtee]

Oh, except Kelly's with what's'er name the Princess of Hell now, so she'll probably act as midwife, and maybe she'll Rosemary's Baby the thing, as in "Oooh, aren't you just the cutest little Nephilim ever!"  *then* cut to black.  Either way, ummm...*shrugs*

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Whew!  Finally caught up on all the comments.  :)  

On 2/23/2017 at 9:11 PM, catrox14 said:

So how long before the Nick meatsuit starts to fall apart and Lucifer seeks out Sam as his vessel?

I think this has been answered, so sorry if this is redundant.  The only good thing (imo) about the whole weird Nick meatsuit (really - Crowley found it lying around and had it for TWO YEARS?) - is that I don't have to worry about them trying to make Sam a Lucifer vessel again.  I'm so okay with that.  

On 2/23/2017 at 9:13 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

So Mary is championing the BMoL even knowing what they did to Sam & Dean. I wonder if she also knows Ketch murdered Magda and all the gov't people at not-Gitmo?

Nope.  Probably not.  

On 2/23/2017 at 9:17 PM, catrox14 said:

I had to laugh at Ketch saying "You're the best hunter I've ever seen". So I guess that means Mary is the best hunter in the Winchester clan now? Whatever, Mr. Ketch. 

Well, to be fair - I don't think he's actually seen Sam and Dean in action.  ;) 

On 2/23/2017 at 9:41 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm also hoping that she doesn't convince them. I don't think I was imagining that Sam's reaction in the musical montage as Mary was making her pitch was not all right with this. Like at all.

I think Sam's reaction before the musical montage pretty much said it all.  Geez, as others have pretty much said, Sam is breaking my heart here.  

On 2/23/2017 at 10:21 PM, catrox14 said:

You know for a show that made a ghost seek vengeance for being sexually assaulted, it sure did conveniently blow right past LadyFuckOffandDie's mind rape of Sam.  These writers just need to knock this shit off if they aren't going to treat it properly.

You know, I didn't even really ping this until I read your post.  Good catch!  Although I did think Sam's expression, and voice cracking, when he was talking about the torture he suffered spoke to more than just the flambe'd foot.  As for a punch in the gut - that pretty much did it for me.  

23 hours ago, rue721 said:

Also, just on an emotional level, what kind of person works with the organization who tortured her son -- who she SAW being tortured? How is she OK with doing that? I just can't get over that.

When I was a kid, one of the neighborhood "thugs" stole my cat and used their dogs to kill her. 

I'm still not convinced Mary actually sees them as her sons.  That "I love you" on the phone when she was with Ketch was just all kinds of wrong.

What @Mick Lady said about your cat.  I'm so sorry to hear about that.  Jeez.  If someone had done that to my pet, I'd probably have hunted them down with extreme prejudice.  

23 hours ago, SueB said:

Wow.  So MUCH in one episode.  

Yay!  An @SueB review!  I was hoping there'd be one already.  :)  I think you always have some great insights. [Even if I don't always agree with all of them.  ;)]

10 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I hate that they're having her trying to act all "motherly" when she's with them, too. As others have mentioned, she hasn't actually been with them enough to have earned that right. I CAN, however, recognize that "the That Face" scene was one of the few bright spots in this one. But again, too bad that it didn't feel earned.

Ditto about Mary acting "motherly".  We haven't been shown that at all, so it has not been earned, imo.  The "that face" line felt way too contrived to me.  How does she know about "that face"?  When has Dean used it on her before?  I would have liked to have seen that if I'm to believe her right to call him out in this scene.

8 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

The BMOL were also ready to torture Dean, kill him and kill Mary. Not that that seems to make a difference to her so it`s not like Sam is singled out here for some reason. Back at the beginning of the Season he was a victim of opportunity. 

Sam may have been a victim of opportunity, but that does not mitigate his actual torture versus Dean only having been threatened with torture.  There's a big difference.  Sam has every right to feel more betrayed than Dean by Mary working with the HMSSuckbags.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

31 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Can't you see it...hospital, Kelly in labor, then a final painful push and..."it's a boy!" then go to black, and a voice saying "oh my God!" (or, conversely, having the doctor's eyes go black--or Luci red.)  --END SEASON--

It'd be kind of funny if instead it was, "It's a girl!"  Heh.  That could subvert the whole usual anti-christ thing (son of Satan).  [And I know I'm not the only one wondering whatever happened to Jesse in this storyline.]  Plus, since Dagon said it was a boy, that would be a bit of surprise at least.  

Then again, they've had so many big bads (demons) as women: Eve, Lilith, Abaddon...it would be kind of repetitive to have a girl.  ETA: And Amara.  Don't know how I could forget her. Plus we saw her 'grow up' so that would really be repetitive.  Never mind.  

Edited February 25, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
I forgot The Darkness?

[MysteryGuest]

7 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Sam may have been a victim of opportunity, but that does not mitigate his actual torture versus Dean only having been threatened with torture.  There's a big difference.  Sam has every right to feel more betrayed than Dean by Mary working with the HMSSuckbags.

Agreed, but the Dean we know would feel much more betrayed on Sam's behalf than he would on his own.  So it's just a big NO all the way around from both brothers.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

meatsuit (really - Crowley found it lying around and had it for TWO YEARS?) -

He had to have had it for 6 years. Nick in the actual meatsuit was last seen in Detroit in 2010. That's where Lucifer vacated his decaying vessel and took Sam.

Edited February 25, 2017 by catrox14

[Macbeth]

I know this has been covered - but we don't get Mary's argument just a music montage. The writers really couldn't give an F anymore.

The only good thing this season for me is the return of Mark playing Lucifer.  If they are going through the oldies with the colt and yellow eyes - if they insist on doing Lucifer they needed to bring Mark back.

He brings real menace to the role.  Lucifer had been watered down by Castiel's (the perennial angst of what to do with Castiel's character) portrayal, Rick Springfield, and the lightweight politician.

The character of Satan needed to be redeemed.  And the baby is only an interesting plot to me if Mark is on board.  That last shot of him in the chair was fantastic.  Welcome back original make and model.  You were sorely missed.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

It'd be kind of funny if instead it was, "It's a girl!"  Heh.  That could subvert the whole usual anti-christ thing (son of Satan).  [And I know I'm not the only one wondering whatever happened to Jesse in this storyline.]  Plus, since Dagon said it was a boy, that would be a bit of surprise at least.  

Then again, they've had so many big bads (demons) as women: Eve, Lilith, Abaddon...it would be kind of repetitive to have a girl.  

I have a spec in the spoiler thread about Jesse

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

He had to have had it for 6 years. Nick in the actual meatsuit was last seen in Detroit in 2010.

I thought Crowley said two years - but you are probably right.  I did think two years wasn't enough.  Then again, I don't think he retrieved it until after he was King of Hell, which has been how long?  Anyway, 6 years is even worse - he's just had the corpse on ice for this long?  That's pretty ridiculous.  

Then again, I guess it does kind of fit Crowley's revenge scheme.  He knows Lucifer didn't really want Nick.  He wanted Sam.  So to be trapped in Nick for eternity is a punishment (demotion.)  

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

I know this has been covered - but we don't get Mary's argument just a music montage. The writers really couldn't give an F anymore.

Might be discussed more in spoilers...

[rue721]

Why are we supposed to be scared of a baby? This isn't evil "devil spawn," it's just a baby. That has not only not done anything wrong, it hasn't even been born yet. It can't help who its father is.

I'm suspicious that the angels that want to kill half-angel babies are just prejudiced *shrug*

Edited February 25, 2017 by rue721
clarrrrrity

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Why are we supposed to be scared of a baby? This isn't evil "devil spawn," it's just a baby. That has not only not done anything wrong, it hasn't even been born yet. It can't help who its father is.

I'm suspicious that the angels that want to kill half-angel babies are just prejudiced *shrug*

I'm calling it the devil baby because it is the spawn of the actual Devil aka Satan aka Lucifer. 

Also, have you seen The Omen?

Jesse the anti-christ can kill with a thought and he was like 7.  And I'll bet he could do things as an infant.

Edited February 25, 2017 by catrox14

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I thought Crowley said two years - but you are probably right.  I did think two years wasn't enough.  Then again, I don't think he retrieved it until after he was King of Hell, which has been how long?  Anyway, 6 years is even worse - he's just had the corpse on ice for this long?  That's pretty ridiculous.

Crowley became King of Hell in s6 IIRC.  So yeah, seems like he should had it for 6 years IMO. I mean if someone went into that hovel and found a dead body, the coroner might have taken it to the city morgue. And if they didn't find any next of kin, then it would have been cremated or something.  So Crowley and his minions must have scavenged it out of the hovel or the city morgue.

Edited February 25, 2017 by catrox14

[rue721]

28 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I'm still not convinced Mary actually sees them as her sons.  That "I love you" on the phone when she was with Ketch was just all kinds of wrong.

What @Mick Lady said about your cat.  I'm so sorry to hear about that.  Jeez.  If someone had done that to my pet, I'd probably have hunted them down with extreme prejudice. 

[...]

Ditto about Mary acting "motherly".  We haven't been shown that at all, so it has not been earned, imo.  The "that face" line felt way too contrived to me.  How does she know about "that face"?  When has Dean used it on her before?  I would have liked to have seen that if I'm to believe her right to call him out in this scene.

I don't think Mary sees them as her sons. Which is fair enough. But I mean, Sam isn't my son either and I still feel terrible for him! So I dunno. Seems like human empathy should really be enough for her to see the error of her ways. That's why I'm like, is Mary just a huge asshole? Maybe...dunno yet...need more data.

Anyway, I agree about the "that face" feeling unearned. I can deal with the I Love Yous, because I figure that's Mary trying to do and feel what she thinks she's supposed to. But I find the fake familiarity flat out manipulative. She pulls that "mom card" specifically when she wants Sam and Dean to cooperate. IMO she should be a little more careful with that, because it's not going to keep working forever.

Thanks re my cat (Isobel). Like I said, the guy who instigated it was a violent crackhead, and he did lots of awful stuff. It wasn't just him and it wasn't just that, though, there was always a lot going on in that neighborhood. (The good news is that growing up there taught me to sleep through anything!). But that crackhead got Isobel rather than her brother because she was so sweet and trusting. So when I adopted my own cat as an adult (Katya), I tried everything to make sure she was tougher and more wary. I named her after Catherine the Great, the infamous ball-breaker. I "play fought" with her out on the patio so that she would be confident about it being her territory and wouldn't just roll over for other animals. Etc. But she has completely undone all my plans by still turning out to be the gentlest and most nurturing little cat I have ever met in my life. She loves unwrapping presents at holidays and goes on an evening "tour" of the yard every day to kiss all the flowers/ferns. So uh I will not be moving back with her to my childhood neighborhood, is my point ;)

[rue721]

40 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm calling it the devil baby because it is the spawn of the actual Devil aka Satan aka Lucifer. 

Also, have you seen The Omen?

Jesse the anti-christ can kill with a thought and he was like 7.  And I'll bet he could do things as an infant.

Could, maybe. But would? I dunno, we'll have to see.

We have seen one nephilism before. She was regular person, waitressing somewhere and living her life, and Cas's reason for murdering her turned out to be based on a complete lie. She wasn't evil or destroying the world or anything.

Also, Lily Saunder's daughter not only seemed like a totally normal kid but actually *was* one, and yet the angels could believe that she was a nephilism (and sentence her to death for it) -- I guess because there is not anything inherently horrible or even exceptional about the behavior of a nephilism child as opposed to a completely human child.

I just don't like the idea of seeing a baby as evil because he had bad luck in his parents. Also, this particular season has made it clear that people are more than just their lineage. I mean, there's Gavin for one. He's a very good guy, and he comes from a few generations of awful people. There was that girl who was Hitler's great granddaughter, who was just a regular person.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Also, Lily Saunder's daughter not only seemed like a totally normal kid but actually *was* one, and yet the angels could believe that she was a nephilism (and sentence her to death for it) -- I guess because there is not anything inherently horrible or even exceptional about the behavior of a nephilism child as opposed to a completely human child.

Lily Sunders child was human. She wasn't a nephelim. Nephelims are considered an abomination by Heaven. Who knows why at this point. 

I guess for me since this isn't real life I don't care? Lucifer has a spawn. Why put it out in the world? I'm all for offing the evil child before it destroys the world. It's literally Satan's Spawn. It's gotta go, along with Lucifer.

Edited February 25, 2017 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

59 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Jesse the anti-christ can kill with a thought and he was like 7.  And I'll bet he could do things as an infant.

Actually I don't think he could do much when he was a baby. I'm pretty sure it was established that Jesse's power came from the fact that Lucifer rose. He derived his power from Lucifer - for some odd reason it was Lucifer and not a demon. Once Lucifer got put back into the cage, Jesse probably lost any powers he had - hopefully he planned ahead and made himself a home and stockpiled some food!

I checked Super-wiki to see if my memories were correct, and it listed "Lucifer's presence" under weaknesses, saying that Jesse's power derives from Lucifer being on earth, and now that he no longer is, Jesse's powers have likely diminished greatly. Of course if (when) Lucifer escapes, the same might also occur with his spawn - i.e. he might get more powerful - and Jesse also might get rebooted with powers.

[rue721]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Lily Sunders child was human. She wasn't a nephelim.

I know-- that was my point in the portion of my comment that you quoted in your comment :P

[catrox14]

Just now, AwesomO4000 said:

Actually I don't think he could do much when he was a baby. I'm pretty sure it was established that Jesse's power came from the fact that Lucifer rose. He derived his power from Lucifer - for some odd reason it was Lucifer and not a demon. Once Lucifer got put back into the cage, Jesse probably lost any powers he had - hopefully he planned ahead and made himself a home and stockpiled some food!

I checked Super-wiki to see if my memories were correct, and it listed "Lucifer's presence" under weaknesses, saying that Jesse's power derives from Lucifer being on earth, and now that he no longer is, Jesse's powers have likely diminished greatly. Of course if (when) Lucifer escapes, the same might also occur with his spawn - i.e. he might get more powerful - and Jesse also might get rebooted with powers.

That is literally brand new information for me.  Not kidding. Why did Jesse go off by himself to protect everyone if his powers were being diminished when Lucifer was already in the world when they met Jesse? All they said was that his powers had grown and would continue to grow because Lucifer had risen. I don't remember any stipulation that his powers receded if Lucifer was put back in the Cage.  I guess I'm just gonna have to watch that episode again.

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I know-- that was my point in the portion of my comment that you quoted in your comment :P

OH sorry I misread. Nothing intentional. Sorry .

[AwesomO4000]

51 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Why did Jesse go off by himself to protect everyone if his powers were being diminished when Lucifer was already in the world when they met Jesse?

I'm thinking Jesse was getting more powerful since Lucifer was around - that's why there were deaths all of a sudden. And he would continue to get dangerously powerful, and so that's why he left. Since Sam and Dean met Jesse early on in the season, I think he likely remained powerful for a while until Lucifer was put back in the cage, and then slowly lost his powers after that. Unless being far away from Lucifer in Australia sapped his powers even before that.

Theoretically Jesse might've gotten more powerful again when Lucifer in Castiel happened last season... unless the distance weakened the connection and the powers. I don't know how that works.

[catrox14]

37 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm thinking Jesse was getting more powerful since Lucifer was around - that's why there were deaths all of a sudden. And he would continue to get dangerously powerful, and so that's why he left. Since Sam and Dean met Jesse early on in the season, I think he likely remained powerful for a while until Lucifer was put back in the cage, and then slowly lost his powers after that. Unless being far away from Lucifer in Australia sapped his powers even before that.

Theoretically Jesse might've gotten more powerful again when Lucifer in Castiel happened last season... unless the distance weakened the connection and the powers. I don't know how that works.

Sorry, I'm not being clear. What I don't understand is where the idea in the SuperWiki came from that Jesse's powers are directly proportional to Lucifer's presence or not in the world. I went back and watched the episode and read the transcript. sidebar: (The demon mom had the same dishes as my mom. I kind of got a little verklempt.  :( )

There was nothing in the episode that suggested that Jesse's powers would diminish if Lucifer was put back in the Cage. I feel like I've missed a big plot point here.  Was it something in another episode that explained that idea?

Man, that kid that played Jesse was SOOOO GOOD.  I think he might be the best child actor on this entire show, with apologies to Lilith and the Weechesters>

 

Quote

SAM
Anyway, I don't get it. Jesse is the devil's son?

CASTIEL sighs.

CASTIEL
No, of course not. Your Bible gets more wrong than it does right. The antichrist is not Lucifer's child. It's just demon spawn. But it is one of the devil's greatest weapons in the war against heaven.

DEAN
Well, if Jesse's a demonic howitzer, then what the hell's he doing in Nebraska?

CASTIEL
The demons lost him. They can't find him. But they're looking.

DEAN
And they lost him because?

CASTIEL
Because of the child's power. It hides him from both angels and demons. For now.

DEAN
So he's got, like, a force field around him. Well, that's great. Problem solved.

CASTIEL
With Lucifer risen, this child grows strong. Soon, he will do more than just make a few toys come to life—something that will draw the demons to him. The demons will find this child. Lucifer will twist this boy to his purpose. And then, with a word, this child will destroy the Host of Heaven.

DEAN
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait. You're saying that—that Jesse's gonna nuke the angels?

Edited February 25, 2017 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

I think the operative words there are "With Lucifer risen, this child grows strong." I guess meaning that before Lucifer rose he didn't have much power - or at least nothing that was affecting reality. I guess the writers' interpretation is that Jesse's powers don't become a permanent ability, but are dependent on Lucifer being around to somehow power Jesse up?

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Man, that kid that played Jesse was SOOOO GOOD.  I think he might be the best child actor on this entire show, with apologies to Lilith and the Weechesters>

Agreed. He and Colin Ford are my favorites.

I liked Jesse a lot (He was an important character in my current fan fic.)

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

guess the writers' interpretation is that Jesse's powers don't become a permanent ability, but are dependent on Lucifer being around to somehow power Jesse up?

You mean the SuperWiki writers?  Or the show writers?

I mean to me that sentence With Lucifer risen, this child grows strong." means Lucifer rose and Jesse got his powers and they would remain as long as he's alive but that his human side was choosing to suppress the demon powers.  It never once occurred to me that Jesse's powers wouldn't be there if Lucifer was in the Cage.  My mind is kind of blown at that idea and I have to say I don't particularly concur with it myself.

Edited February 25, 2017 by catrox14

[mertensia]

I liked this episode and felt for Gavin. I get it-I do- he couldn't live with himself knowing that his being yanked forward in time caused Fiona to turn into a killer. 

Also, as a name nerd I got irked because Fiona wasn't invented until 1760. 

Mary gets a thumbs up for telling the boys about the BMoL but a thumbs down for not secretly playing the BMoL for info.

I find the name Dagon interesting because it was the name of a God of the Philistines as well as other Semitic groups. They are unsure as to whether he was a fertility God connected to grain  or a fish-God . Through syncretism maybe he was both.

Edited February 25, 2017 by mertensia

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Sam may have been a victim of opportunity, but that does not mitigate his actual torture versus Dean only having been threatened with torture.  There's a big difference.  Sam has every right to feel more betrayed than Dean by Mary working with the HMSSuckbags.

My response was specifically in question to Sam needing to hear Dean will protect him because he fears the BMOL will torture him again or do something else devious. And I don`t see why Sam should fear that especially. Like the BMOL are gonna go: "last time, you were a victim of opportunity but this time we are singling you out...for reasons." Makes no sense to me. Yes, Sam has legitimate beef with them but in terms of future threats, they should all be weary of the BMOL.

[Reganne]

9 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 

I think this has been answered, so sorry if this is redundant.  The only good thing (imo) about the whole weird Nick meatsuit (really - Crowley found it lying around and had it for TWO YEARS?) - is that I don't have to worry about them trying to make Sam a Lucifer vessel again.  I'm so okay with that.  

 

I think I might be in the minority on this board, but I was happy to see that Lucifer is still around and is being played by Mark now.  TBH, I find Lucifer to be one of the more intriguing villains of the show, but at the beginning of this season, he seemed off.  A lot different in other vessels, and I wasn't sure if I was digging that so much.  I can understand why some people might think having Lucifer around some more could be a bit 'been there, done that' but I love the idea, especially since Mark is back.  For this reason, I feel I can overlook the way they had Crowley bring him back to Nick's vessel.  lol  

[DittyDotDot]

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Then why is he trying to manage how Dean is reacting to Mary? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm legitimately not getting it.  :/

I don't think Sam's trying to manage Dean's reactions, but he's playing the role of peacemaker Dean used to frequently play between Sam and John for family unity. 

12 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think it's only been a few weeks at most since the last episode.  Mary wouldn't still be playing the "I'm tired" card, if it had been longer than that.  I also don't believe we can go by Kelly's pregnancy status, because even she has no idea when she's due.  I'm guessing demon babies grow at light speed, so she should be giving birth any minute now.  

I would guess it's only been a week since the last episode--Hee!!--and, yeah, I figure the gestation for nephilium is probably only 3-4 months. Ahh, kids, they grow up so fast!

9 hours ago, rue721 said:

Why are we supposed to be scared of a baby? This isn't evil "devil spawn," it's just a baby. That has not only not done anything wrong, it hasn't even been born yet. It can't help who its father is.

I'm suspicious that the angels that want to kill half-angel babies are just prejudiced *shrug*

Oh yeah, I'm sure the angels declaring angel babies "bad" is solely due to them being very powerful and it scares the angels. They don't like to know there is something out there that trumps angels. But, I doubt they are born "evil" and, quite frankly, I doubt this one will be either. 

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Crowley became King of Hell in s6 IIRC.  So yeah, seems like he should had it for 6 years IMO. I mean if someone went into that hovel and found a dead body, the coroner might have taken it to the city morgue. And if they didn't find any next of kin, then it would have been cremated or something.  So Crowley and his minions must have scavenged it out of the hovel or the city morgue.

Yes, he would've picked the body up six years ago, but it may have taken him a few years to "improve" it. But the whole thing is so stupid anyway. I can't even imagine why Crowley would collect Nick in the first place. If I was the newly-crowned King of Hell, I'd be sure to destroy the meatsuit and any other possible meatsuit for Lucifer. 

I'm just not sure it needed to be so complicated for them to bring back Mark Pelligrino to play Lucifer, but what do I know?

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

That is literally brand new information for me.  Not kidding. Why did Jesse go off by himself to protect everyone if his powers were being diminished when Lucifer was already in the world when they met Jesse? All they said was that his powers had grown and would continue to grow because Lucifer had risen. I don't remember any stipulation that his powers receded if Lucifer was put back in the Cage.  I guess I'm just gonna have to watch that episode again.

I think Jesse was always going to be a powerful "thing", but he hadn't grown into that power yet. With Lucifer risen, he was getting a power boost, and I can imagine his power decreasing after Lucifer went back in the cage. However, it's been over six years, Lucifer is not in the cage anymore and hasn't been for over a year, so I would expect Jesse to be fairly powerful. Even without Lucifer at full power, Jesse should've grown more powerful with age, IMO.

Edited February 25, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Wayward Son]

16 hours ago, Mick Lady said:

Wayward Son, I love your posts, but I have finally found a point I disagree with. I love Crowley and Rowena!  I'm very intrigued by Rowena's story this season, and I'm hoping for more development, especially what seems to be her growing "relationship" with Dean. I know he remembers their conversation in "Regarding Dean", and I'm waiting to see how it fleshes out.

As for Crowley, I can never guess what he is really up  to, and that's just flat-out fun! Now we have him saving Cas but at the same time keeping Lucifer his prisoner. Now he knows Lucifer's child is still alive, and I'm looking forward to finding out how he's going to use this to his advantage!

Any thoughts? If you do, I'd love to here them in S&S!

Aw thanks for the compliment about my posts! It is always nice to hear someone appreciates them (I'm a vain creature) <3. 

And don't get me wrong I don't hate Crowley! I would best describe it as I can enjoy him in small doses. However, I've never developed the emotional connection I have for Dean, Sam, and Cas so an episode centred around him is never going to be my cup of tea. That said (even if its not of interest to me) I am pleased for Mark/Crowley. He has been a regular for three seasons now and he deserves to have some focus for the hard work he's put into the show :)

My relationship with Rowena is a weird one. I wasn't a fan of hers throughout seasons ten and eleven. However, I have enjoyed her more this year. I don't know if its to do with Ruth's acting (maybe her performance is more nuanced now that she's been playing her for several years), or the writing for her has just improved. So I am interested to see where they go with her. 

 

23 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I understand why this could be a thing g for Mary but she's not actually helping herself because she's not  spending any significant time with them within that allows her and them to figure out how to just "be" with each other. She would soon learn that most of her rationale etc has nothing to do with the reality of their lives. I mean maybe Dean would like to make her a burger and watch Game of Thrones with her and maybe Sam wants to go with her to a foreign film about a mime that's secretly a cockroach. She doesn't know any of this because she  refuses to be in their company for 5 freaking minutes.

Hey, I meant to reply to this but ended up totally forgetting until now.

Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with the way Mary is behaving, and I certainly don't condone her refusal to hand over the colt during Stuck in the Middle (With You). She should be trying to reach out to them, especially when it is clear they want a relationship with her. I was just trying to analyse what the scene may have been trying to convey about her mindset and her (misguided) reasons for behaving the way she is :). 

Edited February 25, 2017 by Wayward Son

[rue721]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I guess for me since this isn't real life I don't care? Lucifer has a spawn. Why put it out in the world? I'm all for offing the evil child before it destroys the world. It's literally Satan's Spawn. It's gotta go, along with Lucifer.

Even within the rules of the show, though, this should not be "the evil child," this should just be a child.

Nephilism aren't inherently evil on this show -- we saw that with the woman that Cas killed. The descendants of evil people aren't inherently evil on this show -- we saw that with Gavin and with Hitler's great grand-daughter.

I just don't see any reasons why we should assume that this is an evil child or that it would ever want to destroy the world.

Or really, what's even so special about this baby at all. It's got a weird lineage. Its inheritance will give it some extra power. OK, that could apply to lots of people I guess.

I think they need to get it away from all these demons and away from Lucifer and stuff, though -- but because of the harm the demons and Lucifer could do to Kelly and the baby themselves, more than anything else.

ETA:

I'm suspicious that the reason Chuck apparently told the angels that half-angel babies were evil and would be killed is so that the angels didn't go around making lots of babies and families with humans. It basically kept the angels away from fraternizing with the humans.

ETA2:

I guess even Chuck realized that if the angels were down, humans would definitely be down too. Guess he really DID make us humans in his image ;)

Edited February 25, 2017 by rue721

[MysteryGuest]

6 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Nephilism aren't inherently evil on this show -- we saw that with the woman that Cas killed. The descendants of evil people aren't inherently evil on this show -- we saw that with Gavin and with Hitler's great grand-daughter.

I just don't see any reasons why we should assume that this is an evil child or that it would ever want to destroy the world.

Hitler was a human, so I agree that any offspring wouldn't necessarily be evil.  But the offspring of the actual devil, in my opinion, would be a whole different kettle of fish.  I wouldn't play around with an "oh let's just wait to see how he turns out" attitude.  The fate of the world is theoretically at stake here.  Sometimes you just have to err on the side of caution.

[rue721]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

But the offspring of the actual devil, in my opinion, would be a whole different kettle of fish.

Physically, though, Lucifer is just another (arch)angel. He's not passing down a special genetic inheritance AFAIK.

[SueB]

38 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Physically, though, Lucifer is just another (arch)angel. He's not passing down a special genetic inheritance AFAIK.

I'd be completely on board with the "it's not evil due to DNA-ish (do Angels have DNA?)" argument but they had Kellie put her hand on the bible and it caught on fire.  Now, that was the same episode that had crosses turn upside down when Lucifer-as-an-Archbishop walked by.  So the Hollywood Christian imagery ala the Omen was uber-strong in that episode.  But on this show, igniting a Bible is kinda a deal-sealer for 'inherently evil'.  However, they are definitely putting it to the question with the whole nephilim backstory. 

If any plot, in fact, has been consistently built up -- it's the Devil's spawn plot.  And yes, I use 'spawn' because it'a not only a commonly used horror term but it's actually part of the definition (noun, option# 2).  Word etymology aside, here's what we know for certain:

- it's powerful, more than the usual as it's conception range what can only be described as an alarm on the celestial level -- I don't think it was Angel radio
- the only other nephilim we've really seen was an unassuming crepe waitress who was attacked by Metatron and Castiel
- his (we know it's a he now) father can hear his heartbeat

One random potential is that when God set up the universe (ala SPN style), he knew having uber-powerful half-angel creatures would likely lead to power abuse so he outlawed it.  Thus, the very fabric of nature as he created it is anti-nephilim.  Further, these rules could be proportional -- the more potential power a nephelim has, the more he set up natural alarms to stop them from being.  That's about all I got -- essentially, that God presumed the old 'power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely' and set up his universe to reject creation of supernatural half-angel beings that were not created by him. In that circumstance, they may be able to say that his rules were too rigid and give the baby a chance.  But honestly, I go back to 'flaming Bible' as the deal sealer using the SPN rules of good vs evil.   

Edited February 25, 2017 by SueB