S12.E13: Family Feud

[rue721]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

However, words from the boys on now they feel about events have been zilch this season.

Remember way back in the day, when there would be that "brother moment" at the end of each episode, where they would basically talk about how they were feeling about whatever the b-plot of the moment was? I found it incredibly hokey at the time, but now that it has been replaced by treacly montages, I want it back :P

30 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I thought it was stated that nephilim have both soul and angel grace?

If that's the case, then can't they just remove the grace and have the baby be a regular human? I mean, if they're really afraid of this grace-and-soul combo? Personally, I wouldn't even bother doing that, because I don't really see the problem with a nephilism baby. But drawing off the grace is better than killing the baby outright at least.

[catrox14]

Eve

10 minutes ago, rue721 said:

If that's the case, then can't they just remove the grace and have the baby be a regular human? I mean, if they're really afraid of this grace-and-soul combo? Personally, I wouldn't even bother doing that, because I don't really see the problem with a nephilism baby. But drawing off the grace is better than killing the baby outright at least

Then they are fundamentally interfering with a new species and changing it without it's consent. If it's about free will shouldn't the nephilim have some say in whether it wants to be turned into a full human or a full angel?

If the issue is that the spawn should be able to make it's own choices, shouldn't it have the choice to remain half devil spawn/half human?

To me, Kelli was an idiot for not terminating the pregnancy immediately.  Like she was going to but then what, 5 minutes later she's all, " NO I CAN'T. I don't care if the thing that impregnated me was basically raping me and has glowing eyes, and tried to strangle me and it's spawn caused me to set a Bible on fire because I touched it, but SURE, I'll go ahead and give birth to it's spawn".  /head desk

Have I said how much I hate this stupid SL with the fire of every sun in every universe? 

[rue721]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If the issue is that the spawn should be able to make it's own choices, shouldn't it have the choice to remain half devil spawn/half human?

Yes, of course they shouldn't interfere with it.

But if the only way to keep it from getting murdered is to get rid of the grace, then ffs get rid of the grace. I'm basically on team "Don't Murder the Baby" :P

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Yes, of course they shouldn't interfere with it.

But if the only way to keep it from getting murdered is to get rid of the grace, then ffs get rid of the grace. I'm basically on team "Don't Murder the Baby" :P

But where is the guarantee that getting rid of it's grace would stop the spawn from gaining some other type of power or becoming powerful like at the age of 18 via normal evil human methods?

[rue721]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But where is the guarantee that getting rid of it's grace would stop the spawn from gaining some other type of power or becoming powerful like at the age of 18 via normal evil human methods?

I mean, there's not one. You can't guarantee that any given person won't become powerful or won't do horrible things.

ETA:

Ironically, the angels are just gonna have to have some faith :P

Edited February 26, 2017 by rue721

[catrox14]

Just now, rue721 said:

I mean, there's not one. You can't guarantee that any given person won't become powerful or won't do horrible things.

Right. So to me if there is no guarantee, I'm disinclined to risk all of humanity and possibly the universe to bring a nephilim into the world that may be supernaturally influenced by the evilest evil that ever eviled.

Jesse was already born so they couldn't prevent that.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

48 minutes ago, rue721 said:

If that's the case, then can't they just remove the grace and have the baby be a regular human?

Maybe it's not possible to separate the grace from the soul in a nephilim?  Angels don't have souls, so we can't really go by the fact that it's possible to drain off angel grace.  Or even that Cas removed residual Gadreel grace from Sam, since Sam wasn't born with it.  I guess soul and grace could be intertwined in a way (DNA double helix?) that trying to remove the grace would also damage the soul and kill it.  I don't know - and kind of doubt that the show will even go there.  

[rue721]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Maybe it's not possible to separate the grace from the soul in a nephilim?

Yeah maybe. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, they should/could just leave it. I don't know why the grace being there and the baby not being full human is such a problem for the angels anyway.

But if the angels are going to kill anyone that has both grace and a soul, I figure they could at least try to excise the grace before they jump all the way to Plan Z and commit infanticide.

Just now, catrox14 said:

I'm disinclined to risk all of humanity and possibly the universe to bring a nephilim into the world that may be supernaturally influenced by the evilest evil that ever eviled.

I don't see where the risk is. There is a risk, but in the sense that every baby is a risk. I mean, Hitler was a baby once, too. So was Gandhi. Lucifer is God's child just like all the other angels are. Apparently, anybody could grow up to be anything. Seems like there's not really any telling. Just have to wait and see.

If it's really Lucifer's influence that's the problem, then why not kill Lucifer? Why kill the child he's (possibly) influencing?

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

I mean, Hitler was a baby once, too.

Hitler AFAIK was not literally the Devil's Spawn (but maybe that's a philosophical thing).

In this show, Lucifer is known quantity. He's defied Guck, corrupted souls in Hell, turned human souls into demons, murdered MILLIONS via the Apocalypse which caused all manner of catastrophes, and wanted to create literal Hell on Earth. 

I dunno, I'm not seeing the downside to terminating the Spawn before it's born.  But that's just me. 

[rue721]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I dunno, I'm not seeing the downside to terminating the Spawn before it's born.  But that's just me.

Well sure, before it's born. That's the current plan within the show AFAIK. The only reason that hasn't happened is because Kelly hasn't been cooperating and they haven't been able to track her down. Not for a moral or philosophical reason.

[Jynnan tonnix]

On 2/24/2017 at 1:57 PM, Dobian said:

So they sent Gavin MacLeod back to the Love Boat.  That name and how he died on a sinking ship always made me chuckle.

Ha! i can't believe I didn't place that name. I remember thinking it sounded like "something", but just so far out of context,  I guess, that I never stopped to wonder why it seemed familiar!

[SueB]

7 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Since the Gavin that Bobby summoned hated his father and the Gavin that was brought into the present was able to make peace with him wouldn't it that alter the events of Weekend at Bobby's? Hmmm.......

This, of course, required RESEARCH and ANALYSIS (Oh, my favorite!)  I've summed it up in the TL; DR section below for those who don't want to wade through the charts/graphs/and powerpoint presentation.  So first I rewatched the key scenes in Weekend at Bobby's.  Gavin actually didn't say much:
- In addition to seeing Gavin in this episode, this is also the episode where Rufus is the first to tell Bobby that Crowley's real name is "Fergus Roderick MacLeod"
- Gavin asked "is this hell?", Bobby told him he just needed info
- Crowley shows up and says he hates the little bastard. When Bobby tells him he wasn't trying to do an exchange, he just got the data he needed, Crowley asked Gavin what he told him and Gavin said "Everything."
 

But the other thing I was wondering about was ..... would Gavin even BE a ghost?  He didn't have unfinished business when he went back to the ship.  He went back knowing he was going to die and that he saved Fiona from her experience.  Further, we see them both ghostipate (ghost dissipate... *gives Dean 'proud of himself' look for making up a new word*).  Well my answer is maybe, maybe not.... and does it matter?  The obvious is that there are two possible outcomes, Gavin was either brought to Bobby's study (aka, ya'll know that was really his dining room... right?) OR he wasn't.  So let's first deal with how Gavin could be summoned to Bobby's house by looking at three other 'ghosts':
- First is your basic haunting, unfinished business ghost.  But they aren't actually summoned so much as show up.  Gavin did a summoning for Fiona, but she came when he started to talk to her personally.  So... perhaps if they are existing ghosts in a location, they can choose to be visible or not. Most of these ghosts are irrational and look gross (even Bobby was starting to look a little rough after a while).
- Second is Mary Winchester. Mary has no recollection of being a ghost but Missouri seems to think she in fact stayed at the Lawrence House for 21 years before finally "destroying herself".  Mary, was pulled out of heaven by Amara.  Which means when she 'destroyed herself', she actually  went to heaven.  And that erased her ghost memories. Mary also apparently never went insane as a ghost and she looked like the day she died. 
- Third is Jo Harvelle.  Jo was definitely summoned by Osiris. He didn't have any artifacts, he must have just had the juice to get her from wherever she was.  So... she also died a wrongful Death but her bones were incinerated in that fire.  So, was she hanging around as a ghost somewhere or did he pull her spirit from heaven?
This leaves me with my own new headcanon on "summoning lore" - with certain spells or magic, you can pull a 'ghost' but that is NOT the same thing as speaking to a vengeful spirit.  Fiona was the vengeful spirit type.  Tethered to the earth by a wrongful death and the locket.  Gavin in the original Weekend at Bobby's looks waterlogged but not decaying.  Jo looked grey but not decaying.  So... somehow, I think you can pull a person from near their moment after death in the form they would have looked like, but that doesn't mean they are still wandering the earth.  With ALL this in mind, I'm going to say that there's at least better than 50% chance that Bobby would have a spell that used an object to actually bring the ghost to this plane of existence and they are both rational and yet don't know of what their ultimate fate is (heaven or hell).  The psychic who talked to Bobby in heaven, well he was LEGIT talking to souls in heaven. He wasn't summoning a ghost.  

So, IF Bobby DID summon Gavin MacLeod and he remembered having been to the future, what would the result be the same?  My answer is yes.  First, let's replace the initial Bobby/Gavin conversation with how future-knowledge Gavin MIGHT has gone.  SPECULATION LAND:
- Gavin: "Where AM I?" as well as "Wait a minute, what YEAR is this?"
- Bobby says he wants to talk about Fergus MacLeod, his daddy (same). Now at this point, I'm going to reason that Sam and Dean told him to not say anything about the future to ANYONE, even though he was going to die.  So, I'm going to believe that Gavin, who has clearly wised up since the day Abaddon brought him forward, will ask questions but keep to himself about his future travel.  He'll know he's been brought back to a time before he re-met his father (as HE remembers it). But he'll want to get out of Bobby's house and back to Fiona.  So, when Bobby asks about his father treated him, he'll probably cooperate not out of spite but to facilitate leaving.  And he'll probably stick to how his father treated him back in the 1700's, not 2017.  And when Bobby says he wants to know where Fergus' would have been buried, he might very well tell him.   If he's tethered to the signet ring for the summoning, he'll HEAR Bobby talking to Sam and Dean as well and that may give him comfort to trust Bobby is a good guy. After the LAST time he was summoned to the future, I can also hear him muttering 'not again!' to himself.  
- When Crowley shows up, Gavin will pretend they haven't re-met and he'll see that his Dad says the same thing he told Abaddon.  So, he won't believe it (even though it's actually TRUE during the Weekend at Bobbie's episode).  But he'll not over-react.  He'll see Crowley capitulate to Sam and Dean and figure that's probably as it should be.  
THUS, Gavin will have to be wary and choose his words carefully, but really the ONLY thing he did was tell Bobby where his father was buried.

Now, what if somehow, the ghostipate make Gavin unavailable?  Well, then we're back to Bobby has to find the bones of Fergus MacLeod WITHOUT the help of his son.  I still think that's viable, although it would take much longer.

Bottom Line for the TL; DR:
- A future-knowledge Gavin would likely not ask "Is this Hell?" but instead ask essentially 'where am I and what year is it?'  He'll recognize it's the future and be savvy enough to not reference his OTHER future trip.  Since all Bobby wants to know is where Fergus is buried, I think he'll tell him once he suss' out that Bobby is a good guy and definitely if he sees that Bobby works with Sam and Dean.  He can easily play along with his father claiming to hate him because that's what he did when Abbadon brought him to the future, and Crowley STILL saved him.  So... Weekend at Bobby's, IMO, is relatively unchanged with just a few different lines of dialog from a smarter Gavin. 

Edited February 26, 2017 by SueB

[Katy M]

12 hours ago, SueB said:

But the other thing I was wondering about was ..... would Gavin even BE a ghost?

I don't know if on SPN ghosts always need unfinished business.  Maybe reapers don't like going underwater.  Plus, I have no idea, if a dead person HAS to be a ghost to summon him/her, if you have something of theirs.  Has that ever been discussed, really?  OK, I guess maybe because they couldn't just summon Bobby down with his hat, they had to break him out.

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I don't know if on SPN ghosts always need unfinished business.  Maybe reapers don't like going underwater.  Plus, I have no idea, if a dead person HAS to be a ghost to summon him/her, if you have something of theirs.  Has that ever been discussed, really?  

As far as I remember, Gavin wasn't a ghost. Bobby summoned his spirit, which isn't necessarily a ghost, IMO.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

12 hours ago, SueB said:

Further, we see them both ghostipate (ghost dissipate... *gives Dean 'proud of himself' look for making up a new word*).

Oh sweetie...*giving you a pat on the head because I'm so proud of you for this while also shaking my head and giving you a Sam 'see what I have to put up with?' look because it sounds a little too much like constipate.* :D

[rue721]

9 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

because it sounds a little too much like constipate.* :D

cannot stop laughing that this

[SueB]

5 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Oh sweetie...*giving you a pat on the head because I'm so proud of you for this while also shaking my head and giving you a Sam 'see what I have to put up with?' look because it sounds a little too much like constipate.* :D

*beams proudly because of pat on head*

[bettername2come]

I still love the "Fergus, he's not like us. He believes in things. Let him do what he believes is right." I don't care if she was manipulating events for revenge on Crowley. That's just par for the course for her. But she was nice to Gavin while leading him to his death and supporting his decision. I'm glad Gavin at least got to see his family care about him even if about half of it was a lie.

"Just 'cause Dim and Dimmer here can't keep their family all in the same dimension" 

Spoiler

pretty prescient of things to come

Sam being nice and apologizing for Dean's behalf with that bright smile on his face when he sees Mary. God, that boy just wants his mommy to love him. 

This breaks their time travel rules, doesn't it? You can't change the past and remember the alterations can you? Isn't it a loop?

Edited September 28, 2017 by bettername2come

[Hanahope]

So much for thinking maybe Rowena and Crowley could mend their fences.  I'm not surprised that if she still hated Crowley, she'd hate his son too, even if it was her grandson.  

I didn't quite get the ghost's reason for vengeance.  Teacher?  Why not just men.  And how would she know that a scout leader can also be considered a teacher?  

But I guess that wraps up Gavin's story, slim as it was.

Glad Mary confessed to working with the BMOL, but she should listen to her boys.

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

I didn't quite get the ghost's reason for vengeance.  Teacher?  Why not just men.  And how would she know that a scout leader can also be considered a teacher?  

Wasn't it because one of the men who raped her on the boat was her childhood teacher who also told her she deserved what she got because she was filthy, or something like that?

[Hanahope]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Wasn't it because one of the men who raped her on the boat was her childhood teacher who also told her she deserved what she got because she was filthy, or something like that?

I thought she was mad at the teacher because he failed to protect her from being raped (and may have also said those things).

[DittyDotDot]

21 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

I thought she was mad at the teacher because he failed to protect her from being raped (and may have also said those things).

I remembered it as both he raped her and failed to protect her. Either way, that's why she was going after teachers specifically. She felt like he had failed in his duty as a person of influence and then--as many ghosts seem to--projected that onto all teachers. 

Edited October 24, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Katy M]

26 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I remembered it as both he raped her and failed to protect her. Either way, that's why she was going after teachers specifically. She felt like he had failed in his duty as a person of influence and then--as many ghosts seem to--projected that onto all teachers. 

She referred to their old teacher as Miss "so and so" (not literally, she knew the name I don't remember it), so I doubt her female teacher raped her.  It was just that she allowed it to happen and even encouraged it by calling her a whore or something similar.

[Wayward Son]

On 25 February 2017 at 9:12 PM, rue721 said:

I think drawing off any grace the baby has would just make the baby mortal, like any other human is. Not actually kill it or even hurt it particularly.

Do nephilism have souls?

I believe they do! During Lily Sunders has Some Regrets Isham states the following when telling the other angels of their "mission" to kill Lily Sunder's daughter. 

 

Quote

ISHIM: Father has wings. Mother's a primate. And this child has a human soul mixed with angelic grace. Now that's – 

MIRABEL: Dangerous. Nephilim are forbidden by the oldest laws in heaven.

While we know that Ishim was lying about the fact that the girl was a nephilim I see no reason to believe the Angels would be ignorant enough about their general nature I.e stating nephilim have both a soul and grace that Ishim could get away with such a lie.

[Katy M]

38 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

While we know that Ishim was lying about the fact that the girl was a nephilim I see no reason to believe the Angels would be ignorant enough about their general nature I.e stating nephilim have both a soul and grace that Ishim could get away with such a lie.

Well, they were ignorant about the fact that mothers of Nephilim are always killed during birth.  So, there's that.  But, I would argue that Isham really wouldn't have any need to lie about a human soul and angelic grace being mixed.  Nephilim are just always supposed to be killed.  Wouldn't matter why.  But, that doesn't necessarily mean that he's right.  Nephilim are extremely rare, and angels have probably never performed vivisection on one, or stuck their hand in one for a soul search.  Plus, I'm pretty sure that angels have stated things as fact that have turned out not to be true.  I'm too tired to try to remember specific examples at the moment.

[gonzosgirrl]

15 hours ago, Katy M said:

Well, they were ignorant about the fact that mothers of Nephilim are always killed during birth.  So, there's that.  But, I would argue that Isham really wouldn't have any need to lie about a human soul and angelic grace being mixed.  Nephilim are just always supposed to be killed.  Wouldn't matter why.  But, that doesn't necessarily mean that he's right.  Nephilim are extremely rare, and angels have probably never performed vivisection on one, or stuck their hand in one for a soul search.  Plus, I'm pretty sure that angels have stated things as fact that have turned out not to be true.  I'm too tired to try to remember specific examples at the moment.

They also didn't seem particularly concerned about them being on Earth prior to this episode. The one Metatron and Castiel kill has apparently just been 'living her life' and though she's referred to as an abomination by Metatron, she doesn't seem to have been in hiding or at risk from the angels. Cas even apologizes for what he 'has' to do. They needed to up the stakes for Jack's story so they (IMO) retconned this need to kill them into existence.

Edited January 4, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

37 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

They also didn't seem particularly concerned about them being on Earth prior to this episode. The one Metatron and Castiel kill has apparently just been 'living her life' and though she's referred to as an abomination by Metatron, she doesn't seem to have been in hiding or at risk from the angels. Cas even apologizes for what he 'has' to do. They needed to up the stakes for Jack's story so they (IMO) retconned this need to kill them into existence.

I think they could just say archangel nephilim is too powerful and dangerous so it must be killed. I think that's enough to justify the difference in how the deal with it.

[gonzosgirrl]

27 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think they could just say archangel nephilim is too powerful and dangerous so it must be killed. I think that's enough to justify the difference in how the deal with it.

Was the Nephilim in Lily Saunders...  (where the retconning began) supposed to have been fathered by an archangel? I've blanked out so much of S12 I honestly don't recall.

Edited January 4, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Was the Nephilim in Lily Saunders...  (where the retconning began) supposed to have been fathered by an archangel? I've blanked out so much of S12 I honestly don't recall.

Not that I know of. Maybe I didn't follow the thread of the convo that well. LOL taking my reply to s12 discussion

[Katy M]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Was the Nephilim in Lily Saunders...  (where the retconning began) supposed to have been fathered by an archangel? I've blanked out so much of S12 I honestly don't recall.

No, it was supposedly to have been that angel that Isham killed outside of the house.  

[Wayward Son]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Was the Nephilim in Lily Saunders...  (where the retconning began) supposed to have been fathered by an archangel? I've blanked out so much of S12 I honestly don't recall.

As @Katy M said the angel killed outside of the house (Akobel) was believed to be the father of Lily Sunder’s daughter. Akobel was described as a “seraphim of the sixth choir” by Castiel as he declared his “crime” shortly before being killed by Mirabel. 

 

Had she been a legit nephilim I would imagine she would have been quite powerful as seraphims are meant to be high in the angelic hierarchy, but still far from the power Jack possesses. 

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

As @Katy M said the angel killed outside of the house (Akobel) was believed to be the father of Lily Sunder’s daughter. Akobel was described as a “seraphim of the sixth choir” by Castiel as he declared his “crime” shortly before being killed by Mirabel. 

 

Had she been a legit nephilim I would imagine she would have been quite powerful as seraphims are meant to be high in the angelic hierarchy, but still far from the power Jack possesses. 

What angel is before seraphims? I don't know angel levels other than seraphim and nephelim

[The Companion]

On 2/23/2017 at 8:10 PM, MysteryGuest said:

 

I have zero interest in Lucifer and absolutely hated how they retconned everything just so they can continue to cram his story down our throats.  I just do not care and it is the most disappointing part of this season for me.  

Same. I do not care about Lucifer one iota.

On 2/23/2017 at 8:17 PM, MysteryGuest said:

I hate that even Crowley is an idiot now.  There's no reason for him to save Lucifer from the cage.  He would want him gone probably even more than Sam and Dean.  I call bullshit on that storyline.  And must every episode end with a musical interlude and oh so scary Lucifer scene??  

Agreed. Crowley is all about self preservation and I call total bullshit that he would prioritize revenge, particularly where it involved Lucifer, over having him locked away in the cage. If Lucifer is alive, even enslaved, he can work an angle. Hell, Crowley JUST DID THAT HIMSELF. 

On 2/23/2017 at 8:19 PM, rue721 said:

Yeah, I really liked that ending with Crowley and Rowena.

It was a pretty devastating and awesome payoff to what seemed stupid at the time (the Oscar thing). And in a way, I find it hilarious that Rowena knows exactly how it feels to get played/betrayed by your own mother AND USED THAT to make her revenge even sweeter. Damn, you've got to admire it in a way!

I loved it. I love Rowena. She is a terrible, conniving, self interested, petty witch. It makes he a great villain. You can never quite get comfortable with her. You never quite know what angle she is playing. Even in the end, was 100% of her reaction here acting so she could hurt Crowley, or did she realize she could hurt him and use it to her advantage?

On 2/23/2017 at 9:21 PM, catrox14 said:

You know for a show that made a ghost seek vengeance for being sexually assaulted, it sure did conveniently blow right past LadyFuckOffandDie's mind rape of Sam.  These writers just need to knock this shit off if they aren't going to treat it properly.

Yup. I cringed as soon as her story started because you knew where it was going. 

On 2/23/2017 at 10:23 PM, ZennyKenny said:

Watching Riverdale and realizing that I am WAY more invested in Archie's struggle to choose between a football career and a music career made me understand what my problem with SPN is; they don't know how to communicate the stakes.

We're supposed to just assume that the Devil's child = bad, but they haven't been specific enough for me to feel the weight of the threat. Especially since we already have an Antichrist in the world and apparently there's no problem there.

Another problem is that they've mixed & matched their good guys and bad guys so much that I don't even know what to feel about any of them. I was rooting for the demon to kill the angels and protect that pregnant woman.  When I step back and examine that, I wonder if that was the intent of the writers. I mean... I shouldn't be cheering on a demon, should I?

 

Yeah, as far as the film theory's "Show, don't tell" rule, that felt really cheaty. Like yeah TECHNICALLY they were showing, but no not really. Again going back to Riverdale (sorry I am HOOKED on this show now), a major plot point of the episode was a character being forbidden to speak at her brother's funeral. The show had a way of reminding you of this by having her communicate it with a friend, hinting that she had plans on speaking anyway, and making it clear that she knew perfectly well that there would be consequences. It EMPHASIZED the stakes. Because of that, when it finally happened, the scene was filled with dread and tension. And when the inevitable aftermath came, it hit hard.

THAT'S what SHOULD have happened between Mary & the boys. They never stated the stakes, other than Sam & Dean wouldn't like it. But so what? That's not a real consequence; they do things all the time that eachother doesn't like. It's not like the BMoL guy threatened to stop teaching Mary or force her to stop seeing her kids, so there wasn't any consequence there, either. I mean for God sakes the montage didn't even show what the outcome was, did it? Unless I missed something.

I think this is spot on. The show has trouble establishing the stakes and building a threat. I complained about it last season with Amara. She took a few souls and disappeared. It wasn't particularly menacing. I don't think they have established the threat here, and the past example of a Nephilim waitress is countering the dread here. 

 

On 2/25/2017 at 12:27 PM, ahrtee said:

Unless they're planning to have the kid age daily (a la Amara, which, ugh, not again) then I can't see them having the good guys kill an infant, no matter what the justification.  Maybe they're setting up season 26, with Jesse vs. SoL?  

I hate babies in science fiction and particularly babies that age quickly. Plus they literally just did that story. Yet, it's not great to be like: KILL THE BABY. I'm not Walder Frey. 😆

On 2/25/2017 at 12:28 PM, bethy said:

The talk about the Lucifer child reminded me of something. Is there a special class in acting school that teaches actresses to hold/caress their bellies all the time when they are acting pregnant? I mean, I've known my fair share of pregnant ladies, even if I've never been pregnant myself, and very few spend SO MUCH TIME rubbing their hand over their stomachs. Occasionally toward the end of pregnancy I see women more like poking/jabbing at the kid who is dancing around on their bladder in there, but the constant thoughtful stroking? Not so much. 

I definitely did but after 10 years of infertility and a miscarriage, I was a hot mess and feeling the baby move kept me sane. But also, it's a good defensive move. Weirdos on the elevator don't try to grab your belly when you are already touching it. 🙄

On 2/25/2017 at 1:36 PM, SueB said:

Do you remember Amara sending the blocks into the wall that said "FEED ME", then eating the deputy's soul?  I'm gonna go ahead and call that bad.  Now, Amara was clearly NOT your average baby.  She could spell, for one (pun intended).  So, IF this baby is evil, I think it's because Luci is already talking to it.  

Again, I'm not 100% convinced it's going to work out this way.  I'm up for Team Free Will giving the baby FREE FREAKIN' WILL.  The only issue will be if Lucifer has already made it mentally homicidally unstable.  Which would be horrific and sad.  

In fairness to baby Amara, we didn't see them give that poor child one bottle. Newborns eat constantly. Like every 1-2 hours. 😆

On 2/25/2017 at 2:28 PM, DeeDee79 said:

This makes me think that Mr. Ketch will be the one to kill the baby. Once the BMOL's get wind of it I can't imagine that they'll let it go. Or do they already know about it? I can't recall it they do..

I can see this being where they go. 

 

I didn't hate this one, mainly because I did find the Crowley/Rowena stuff interesting and the ghost was pretty great. 

 I am relieved to have the secrets and lies resolved into actual conflict. I felt for both of the guys here. I think it has been fully covered, but I thought both guys nailed it in showing real and believable pain and sadness. 

[Katy M]

38 minutes ago, The Companion said:

In fairness to baby Amara, we didn't see them give that poor child one bottle. Newborns eat constantly. Like every 1-2 hours. 😆

I'm assuming they fed her at least a couple of times.  Jenna changed her diaper.  For something to come out, something had to go in, right?