S02.E05: Home

[jhlipton]

10 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I'm not sure Holden did understand. My recollection is that he thought Miller killed Dresden out of revenge, which wasn't the case. It was to keep Dresden from convincing anyone else that the experiments were worthwhile (or something like that).

Miller wasn't entirely sure he didn't shoot Dresden out of revenge either. But Holden saw that Johnson was listening to Dresden, and realized Miller had a point, even if he didn't agree with it.

[refugee]

Good evening everyone,

I was re-watching  this episode and just before Eros hit Venus it appeared that another craft came in from the 2 oclock area of Eros, stopped momentary then continued on to exit at the 8 oclock relative bearing of Eros. 

I rewinded many times to confirm this.

And since most of us saw the asteroid hit Jupiter a few years back we have a good idea what to expect from an impact like this.

So unless I'm going crazy either the unknown craft was visited by the proto-molecule protectors or evil business man Mao's advanced technology...

...or is it just me?

Edited March 14, 2017 by refugee

[Danny Franks]

On 14/03/2017 at 0:29 AM, refugee said:

Good evening everyone,

I was re-watching  this episode and just before Eros hit Venus it appeared that another craft came in from the 2 oclock area of Eros, stopped momentary then continued on to exit at the 8 oclock relative bearing of Eros. 

I rewinded many times to confirm this.

And since most of us saw the asteroid hit Jupiter a few years back we have a good idea what to expect from an impact like this.

So unless I'm going crazy either the unknown craft was visited by the proto-molecule protectors or evil business man Mao's advanced technology...

...or is it just me?

It might be Mao, or someone angling to get a good look at what happens when the protomolecule hits Venus, or it might just be Earth media coverage. The morbid curiosity of people who just had a very near miss, wanting to see what would have happened to their planet.

But I'll be honest, I've watched the scene again and didn't spot what you did. Might just be the VFX people causing a bit of mischief.

[refugee]

^allrighty then it was probably just me.

[MissLucas]

The final scene is on youtube and I watched it again, I know what you're referring to but I have no idea whether it's supposed to be a shadow effect or something more sinister (it's at 4.12).

Edited March 24, 2017 by MissLucas

[lidarose9]

Belatedly posting as I binge on season 2 a bit late.... This is how it was for me. I found myself totally choking up when Miller approached proto-Julie. When he took off his helmet and I realized he meant to stay with her, I had tears running down my face. By the end of the scene, I was bawling my head off. And it was a total surprise! I honestly thought I had no special stake in Miller's outcome, and yet I must have had. I felt a bit of compassion for Julie, but mainly it was Miller who was breaking my heart in that scene. He was so gentle with Julie, so reassuring, so comforting. Doing everything he could to ease her fears and reassure her, without being creepy or pushy. I guess I must have developed some sympathy for him, cuz as he approached her, I knew this was what he had waited his whole life for, whether he knew it or not. He was going to sacrifice his life as easily as drinking a glass of water. He wanted to do it. He had no idea whether it would work, whether it would save Earth or ease Julie's fears or whatever -- he just had that rock-solid faith that this is what they had to do, so he did it. He did this one heroic thing to become a man worthy of Julie Mao. He redeemed his whole wasted life. He was grateful to do it. The embrace took my breath away, the kiss was not sexual - it was an expression of a physical merging. The blue fireflies were starting to weave him into her, which is where he wanted to be. He became one with her, she with him, as they both were with the protomolecule -- but it was not death. It was a becoming. Julie had already been merged in with the protomolecule, the larger organism. It fastened onto her and incorporated her into itself, and for all we know, all the people it "killed" were subsumed the same way -- all of them may still be "alive" in the protomolecule, in some new form or shape. (Excluding people on Eros killed by intentional radiation exposure) Possibly on Eros the protomolecule absorbed Julie first and so she was at the center. So it latched onto her consciousness. (I keep having this feeling we will see people like Semi and Kelly again.) No, Julie did not know Miller, but she was afraid and alone, and he was the one who answered her, with such openness and tenderness. He is the one who came when she called out. She recognized he belonged with her, and said so. That line absolutely killed me -- Miller must have been so entirely happy at that moment, to hear her say that. 

Also be it noted that Eros (root of the word erotic, eros = love) crashing into Venus, named at the the goddess of love, carrying these two star-crossed lovers. I think this may be all about love and fear. Maybe the protomolecule is not here to invade or colonize. 

It was, to me, perfect: visuals, music, dialogue, acting, pacing, everything. I think I will remember that scene the rest of my life.

Edited April 1, 2017 by lidarose9

[morakot]

On ‎2‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 6:51 PM, sjohnson said:

he's just a man at the end so desperate for someone to love he imagines a remnant to be her

When I saw this episode, I had just had a long exchange with a friend about the role of women in The Expanse so my opinion is different from what I've seen here. The Sleeping Beauty encounter between Miller and "Julie" was clearly (to me) an encounter between a man with a romantic dream about a fantasy character. He never actually knew her. She never knew him. He knew facts about her life and created a fantasy about the person she was in his mind. Meeting the protomolecule that had taken on her shape, he extended that fantasy attachment to what looked like her naked body.  He had already rejected the live woman (his ex-wife and partner) in favor of the fantasy and he got to create a new relationship with someone who would never disappoint him.

To me, it was a gorgeous scene of a predator absorbing her food -- in the same way she had absorbed the voices, memories, and shapes (the spy for example) of the hundreds of beings on Eros. He was never joining her as an equal, he was being absorbed by a greater being. It was a tragedy -- not a romance.

[jhlipton]

16 hours ago, morakot said:

He was never joining her as an equal, he was being absorbed by a greater being. It was a tragedy -- not a romance.

He knew it wasn't really Julie, just some small part of her -- the one that loved her racing craft, for example.  He knew that most of what was there was the protomolecule, and that it was indeed a more evolved being (although not necessarily a greater one).  He gave his life, which he thought had no value at all, not just to Julie or to the protomolecule, but to Earth and the rest of the system.

A tragedy, perhaps, more "let us tell sad tales about the death of kings" than, say, Tremors.

[Wouter]

I wasn't a big fan of the The Expanse in the beginning (very awkward introduction, particularly of the Roci crew - I'm also not a fan of the horror elements), but this episode and the one preceding it made it worth to follow it. Nice payoff for all the buildup.

[kassygreene]

As I recall Naomi very definitely did not want to be captain.  This was emphatic in the book as well.

[Clanstarling]

9 minutes ago, doram said:

I'm glad that it's at least addressed in the book (pity that didn't make it into the show, or did it and I missed it?) because it's glaringly obvious that she'd make a better one than bleeding-heart Holden. And despite the Watsonian reason for it, I suspect that the Doylian reason is that this is part of the trend of hyper-competent female sidekicks that should be the heroes of the story but just end up playing lancer to some "everyman-chosen-one" male "hero". (See: Hermione to Harry Potter/ Alice Quinn and Julia Wicker to Quentin Coldwater/ Trinity to Neo/ ad nauseum)

I think it was addressed in the show, but it's been awhile, and I forget exactly when or how. 

[Wouter]

On 4/7/2017 at 4:03 AM, doram said:

I'm glad that it's at least addressed in the book (pity that didn't make it into the show, or did it and I missed it?) because it's glaringly obvious that she'd make a better one than bleeding-heart Holden. And despite the Watsonian reason for it, I suspect that the Doylian reason is that this is part of the trend of hyper-competent female sidekicks that should be the heroes of the story but just end up playing lancer to some "everyman-chosen-one" male "hero". (See: Hermione to Harry Potter/ Alice Quinn and Julia Wicker to Quentin Coldwater/ Trinity to Neo/ ad nauseum)

In Dark Matter, the hyper-competent female is the leader. Killjoys probably goes against this trend, too.

Star Trek Discovery will have a female protagonist, even if she is not (yet) the captain.

[johntfs]

6 hours ago, doram said:

Dark Matter & Killjoys are Syfy productions, right? Between what you've just told me and Expanse and The Magicians, it's looking more and more that that will be my go-to network for great shows. 

I can't comment on Dark Matter or The Magicians, but Killjoys is just a really fun show with great characters.

[Wouter]

19 hours ago, doram said:

Dark Matter & Killjoys are Syfy productions, right? Between what you've just told me and Expanse and The Magicians, it's looking more and more that that will be my go-to network for great shows. 

Dar Matter is a (Canadian) Space Channel/Syfy co-production; both shows are broadcasted on Syfy, in any case. With the Expanse (a show that stands out with its overarching plot and relatively realistic space travel) and those shows, it seems that they want to regain a reputation of go-to channel for fans of scienceficton, rather than just be another reality tv channel. 

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Wouter said:

Dar Matter is a (Canadian) Space Channel/Syfy co-production; both shows are broadcasted on Syfy, in any case. With the Expanse (a show that stands out with its overarching plot and relatively realistic space travel) and those shows, it seems that they want to regain a reputation of go-to channel for fans of scienceficton, rather than just be another reality tv channel. 

I read recently that Syfy is "rebranding" - going back to science fiction. I mean, who knew that there were hardcore science fiction fans out there who had money to spend, right?

[Netfoot]

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I mean, who knew that there were hardcore science fiction fans out there who had money to spend, right?

Right!  Because the Star Wars franchise never made any money.  Nor The Matrix.  Nor...  

[jhlipton]

22 hours ago, johntfs said:

I can't comment on Dark Matter

I can!  It's a fun show with great characters.  It doesn't have the scope of The Expanse (what shows do?), but it makes up for it with fairly well-written plots.

The Magicians seems to have a "White Folks Only" policy that I can't abide.

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, jhlipton said:

I can!  It's a fun show with great characters.  It doesn't have the scope of The Expanse (what shows do?), but it makes up for it with fairly well-written plots.

The Magicians seems to have a "White Folks Only" policy that I can't abide.

There's Rick Worthy, who I fondly remember from Battlestar Galactica but he still wasn't enough to get me to give a shit about Pretty White People with (Magical) Problems.

Plus, the only time I've liked anything close to the Magic Negro trope was in Candyman and that's because his magic was appearing behind stupid people and gutting them with a bigass hook.

Edited July 7, 2017 by johntfs

[Clanstarling]

The Magicians certainly lacks diversity. I can take that now and again (though I prefer diversity), but for me, it's the utter lack of compelling characters (evil or good) that stopped me (twice) from getting into it.

[johntfs]

6 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

The Magicians certainly lacks diversity. I can take that now and again (though I prefer diversity), but for me, it's the utter lack of compelling characters (evil or good) that stopped me (twice) from getting into it.

That's where I am with it.  I watched the commercial-free pilot back in January 2016 and the only character I gave even a little bit of a shit about was Rick Worthy's.  And he "died" (not really but it looked like it) at the end of the show.  Which left me in a "Welp, no reason to check back in with this shit" mental zone.

Killjoys is semi-diverse.  The main three are white, but Pree and Fancy are minorities (and awesome, if secondary, characters).  The other summer show I'm into, Preacher, is pretty much completely white, except for Tulip, played by Ruth Negga, who is mixed race (black/white) and my favorite of the main three.  Really, race isn't played up as a thing in Preacher.  It's there, sure, but I figure anyone calling Tulip a racial slur is going to get the shit killed out of him by Tulip so I'm cool with Tulip being awesome.  I did notice that in New Orleans most of the speaking bit players were black, which makes sense because New Orleans. 

[jhlipton]

47 minutes ago, johntfs said:

The other summer show I'm into, Preacher, is pretty much completely white, except for Tulip, played by Ruth Negga, who is mixed race (black/white) and my favorite of the main three.  Really, race isn't played up as a thing in Preacher.  It's there, sure, but I figure anyone calling Tulip a racial slur is going to get the shit killed out of him by Tulip so I'm cool with Tulip being awesome.  I did notice that in New Orleans most of the speaking bit players were black, which makes sense because New Orleans. 

I've watched ads for Preacher and it looks interesting -- I might give it a try.  I liked Negga on Agents of Shield.

[johntfs]

38 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

I've watched ads for Preacher and it looks interesting -- I might give it a try.  I liked Negga on Agents of Shield.

Here's a taste of Tulip in action

[jhlipton]

Moved to Small Talk...

[Holmbo]

I did NOT like that last scene with Julie and Miller! Ew!
I thought the show was portraying his love/obsession for her as creepy and impersonal (it was more about what she meant to him than her as a person). And then they end it like that, all romantic. It's like the worst version of that gross trope that if a man loves a woman strongly enough she will love him back.

[wanderingstar]

On season 2 of my re-watch, and I just got to this episode. The last scene between Julie and Miller still gets to me. 

[supposebly]

Nothing romantic about the final scene but Julie was never a real person for Miller, just a means or a symbol. So, kissing an image of her makes sense, although it's still creepy as hell.

I'm  just glad he and his terrible hair is gone, I'm  assuming at least for a while (never read the source books, so I don't really know). This is scifi, so I expect some kind of protomlecule return. 

What I want to know is What happened to the missiles? 

[Ziggy]

14 hours ago, supposebly said:

Nothing romantic about the final scene but Julie was never a real person for Miller, just a means or a symbol. So, kissing an image of her makes sense, although it's still creepy as hell.

I think he genuinely was in love with her or at least thought he was. He fell for her throughout his investigation.  I think he did hope he would find her alive (on Eros) and would have assumed she felt the same way. He was pretty obsessed by then.

[wanderingstar]

On 7/3/2017 at 9:43 PM, kassygreene said:

As I recall Naomi very definitely did not want to be captain.

She says to Holden at the end of season one, "Being in charge is a shit job; you can have it." Love the way Dominique delivers that line.

[paramitch]

Apologies, I'm gonna be in the dissatisfied minority here. I feel like such a curmudgeon, but here we go! You have been warned of potential buzz harshing.

So... I liked this okay. But that's how I feel about the show so far all along. It's okay. I feel like Steven Strait (Holden) often overacts (along with many others trying so hard to be intense all the time), and the only people with real consistent charisma to me are Amos (Wes Chatham) and Chrisjen (Shohreh), precisely because they trust the camera and chill out. Meanwhile, the newer characters like the Australian gunny -- credited but not appearing in this episode -- are cringeworthy (she is so bad I find her almost unwatchable).

I just keep waiting to love it, and to be blown away based on the rapturous reviews and reactions, and I'm not, and I'm a big chunk here into S2. I just think it's all right. I thought this episode had some pretty CGI, but I feel like each episode has a slightly formulaic feel (heroic crew explores the protomolecule, battles corrupt Earth/Mars/Belter bureaucrats (with weekly 5-minute appearance by Shohreh), etc. and this was no exception. Plus we got the culmination of Miller's obsession with Julie, and I was just icked out by it and not moved at all. More below.

On 2/24/2017 at 5:18 AM, marinw said:

I apprecaite it when a TV show explores different kinds of love as opposed to romantic or parental. Miller was in love with the idea of Julie, not Julie herself. So it seemed apprapriate and poetic that at the end Miller was talking not to the body of Julie, but to her spirit/soul/consciousness or whatever.

I am always a huge fan of stories that focus on nonromantic love, myself, but oh boy -- for me this isn't remotely one of them.

I was actually irritated at this episode precisely because Miller/Julie is specifically presented as the happy/tragic culmination of his creepy romantic obsession. So I didn't find anything unique about it. Added to the fact that I've always found Miller's obsession with Julie simply tired and cliched, although I appreciated it as a film noir fan (being straight out of Laura, although in that the detective does actually get to know the woman who inspires him).

I've just always found Miller's feelings for Julie to be pretty cliched and icky, honestly -- not least because Thomas Jane looks 20+ years older than Florence Faivre -- he's 15 years older, so it's not quite as bad, but it's still not great (in the original Laura, the gap is 11 years -- Dana Andrews plays younger and Gene Tierney plays older, so it's not as visible).

And it's exacerbated by the fact that, in every one of their major scenes in person, Julie's always naked and he's always clothed. Naked doesn't have to mean sexualized, and I'm not a prude, but in this case, and due to the ways the scenes have been framed, to me they're definitely pushing the "tragic romantic" angle of it (and always about Miller's point of view, Miller's sadness, Miller's obsession with this young woman he never met), so it just feels that much creepier and more prurient. Like, "Oh, poor Miller, he found his dream girl, and she's naked AND DEAD! Naked and GHOSTLY!" etc. It just feels like overkill to me, and like unnecessary objectification of Julie, who has already presented as brave and beautiful, etc. Making her naked just feels cheap to me. Add in the age gap and it becomes max creepy to me.

I have liked Thomas Jane so much in other roles, truly, but while I thought he played the sleazy aspect of Miller well here across the seasons, to me on this show he's just always made Miller's Julie obsession full-on creepy and obsessive, and just as yet another aspect of Miller's unlikability.

The most I ever liked Miller was when he and Holden got that big dose of radiation, both shrugged, and went, "Well, we're dead, let's keep on doing what we can." Nothing will probably beat that moment for me. Definitely not the one here.

I definitely wasn't a fan of his monologue here about how much Julie means to him, to the woman he never met, doesn't really know, and has attached himself to like a predictable duckling to a beautiful image of a young woman. A woman who (even via protomolecular presence) should have only bare and nominal interest in him or his manpain over her physical death. I know some  might say, "He got to know her through her videos/emails/etc.," and all I can say is, if he did, we needed to see way more of that. Instead we got a few videomails. Her co-workers knew her better, for God's sakes. I wish we'd gotten way more evidence of him getting to know the inner Julie -- her diaries or letters, etc. As it stands, he saw a few videomails and got all goopy and it just feels like "yep, a man definitely wrote this."

Then he kissed her and I just facepalmed so hard. Poor Julie. Thank goodness they hit Venus before we got any of Miller's holy cybersex with his dead stalker object.

I totally get that I'm sitting at a lonely table here, so maybe this is all just me. I do think this is well-produced overall, I'm just starting to think the show is not for me.

Quote

@WearyTraveler: I think the kiss, while pretty and dramatic, wasn't completely earned.  Whatever part of Julie's consciousness survived and entwined itself with the protomolecule did n't know Miller, never met him.  I think the scene would have worked much better without the kiss.  I buy the rest of the interaction and that protoJulie started to make a connection with Miller through their conversation first and, after he took off his gear, through whatever information was being shared between them when the protomolecule started infecting Miller.  In fact, it would have been more poignant, to me, anyway, if he'd rested his head on her without the kiss.

THIS. So much. I was momentarily moved when he took off the helmet, dooming himself irrevocably biologically. It got me. But nope, he's just doing it to plant one. (facepalm) We needed a longer scene there -- I feel -- to get any real sense of connection. 

As presented, the kiss just made it icky and creepy all over again -- about satisfying MILLER'S obsession and solidifying that it's creepy and sexual. The best thing they could have done there is, first, give Julie clothing (again, not because I'm prudish but because I feel this storyline's insistence on keeping her naked is utterly objectifying), and secondly, have him connect with her MORE deeply than sex. No kiss. Just a touch, a look. Even her embracing him or his resting his head on her, as you suggest here.

Meanwhile, this was a pretty episode of TV but kind of solidified that this show may simply not be for me. I loved so much other Scifi and was a huge BSG fan, etc. (although it does not age well), but I'll give this a few more eps and probably nope out. Maybe finish S2 if I can.

Thank you for coming to my therapeutic TV-vent session!

[Eliza422]

38 minutes ago, paramitch said:

nwhile, this was a pretty episode of TV but kind of solidified that this show may simply not be for me. I loved so much other Scifi and was a huge BSG fan, etc. (although it does not age well), but I'll give this a few more eps and probably nope out. Maybe finish S2 if I can.

Thank you for coming to my therapeutic TV-vent session!

I've just watched the entire series over the past month - never saw it when it originally ran. Not to give too much away, but the show really takes a radical turn I would say after this episode, and definitely into season 3 and beyond. Season 1 & first half of season 2 are very tightly focused on Miller/Julie on one hand and Holden/Roci on the other, but it really starts to expand out from here after this episode.

I'm no apologist for the show; Draper (I think she's Kiwi, not Australian) has some character turns too, but I can't say her acting style changes much 🤔 

However, it might be worth it to stick around a little longer and see if the tonal shift and wider array of characters and situations makes it something you might end up enjoying. I found myself very surprised and pleased how things changed (mostly - no show is perfect).

Just my thoughts...

 

[MissLucas]

I second the notion that things improve after the Miller/Julie arc. It was my least favorite plot of the show and I was glad when it was over. 

[paramitch]

19 hours ago, Eliza422 said:

I've just watched the entire series over the past month - never saw it when it originally ran. Not to give too much away, but the show really takes a radical turn I would say after this episode, and definitely into season 3 and beyond. Season 1 & first half of season 2 are very tightly focused on Miller/Julie on one hand and Holden/Roci on the other, but it really starts to expand out from here after this episode.

I'm no apologist for the show; Draper (I think she's Kiwi, not Australian) has some character turns too, but I can't say her acting style changes much 🤔 

However, it might be worth it to stick around a little longer and see if the tonal shift and wider array of characters and situations makes it something you might end up enjoying. I found myself very surprised and pleased how things changed (mostly - no show is perfect).

Just my thoughts...

 

16 hours ago, MissLucas said:

I second the notion that things improve after the Miller/Julie arc. It was my least favorite plot of the show and I was glad when it was over. 

Thank you so much for this, both of you! I'm not giving up, and have committed to getting through the end of season 2, so I will cross my fingers and see what lies ahead.

[marinw]

Season three is the best IMO.

[Ziggy]

6 hours ago, paramitch said:

Thank you so much for this, both of you! I'm not giving up, and have committed to getting through the end of season 2, so I will cross my fingers and see what lies ahead.

As others said, it's so hard to respond without giving anything away.  The end of Season 1 was not the end of Book 1, but I thought it made a really good season finale.  We finally got so many of the questions that had been building.  Also, Miller and the crew of the Roci finally met, and that was very satisfyingly to me.

This episode is the ending of Book 1, so it really is a conclusion of sorts.  The next episode marks the beginning of Book 2, so the world expands and new characters are introduced.

I'm with you on the Miller and Julie "romance" being ... less romantic and, dare I say, creepie?  In earlier episodes it seemed as though Miller was beginning to care for her.  And I was fine with that.  But it became weird in the end.

[wanderingstar]

 

On 3/24/2023 at 12:53 PM, paramitch said:

I was actually irritated at this episode precisely because Miller/Julie is specifically presented as the happy/tragic culmination of his creepy romantic obsession

I love this show. It's one of my favorites. But that kiss has always, always bothered me. It is not earned and makes zero sense because, as noted, these characters have never met (I should note that the kiss does not happen in the book) The only "connection" between them is Miller's obsession, which is creepy and not entirely explained - in the show or the books. At one point, Miller says it's because Julie stood up for the Belt, but I don't really buy that as the reason for his obsessing over her. After all, Miller was pretty clear that he wasn't into fighting for the cause of the Belt. I get that his search for Julie is what supposedly turned him from cynic to reluctant hero, but that part never really landed for me. And I say that as someone who generally enjoyed Miller as a character, especially his allying with the Rocinante crew. 

But yeah, that kiss bugs me every time I rewatch the show. 

Interestingly, Ty Franck (one half of James S.A. Corey, and a writer on the show) said in the Ty & That Guy podcast a couple of years ago that he didn't want that kiss between Julie and Miller, but that he was outvoted by the other writers and the actors on that (you can check out his comments in this video at about the 51-minute mark) I remember feeling very validated when he said that-lol