S12.E12: Stuck in the Middle (With You)

[bearcatfan]

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Upon rewatch I don't think she handed it over. Ketch said "Can I look at it" as though Mary was going to be retaining possession of it.

You're right, he did ask to see it. Seems like she did keep it then. I agree that he wouldn't ask to see it if she was going to hand it over.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

It would have to be Sam's choice because there is nothing to prevent Sam from texting Mary or calling her.  Dean's phone doesn't have to be broken for Sam to reach out.   Im not sure why the show is trying to make it look like Sam isn't making an effort.

It seems a bit like Sam not contacting Dean  and John when he was in college. Maybe Sam just cuts bait until someone contacts him. It seems a bit like a pattern now. Kind of curious

[rue721]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If she was going to give it to him anyway why would he ask if he could see it? It seemed a bit like someone wanting to see or touch a work of art. 

Maybe because he's a bit in awe of it? I'm imagining it as his version of a holy relic, a mythical object. I can see him not wanting to just snatch it from her and shove it in his bag, like it's some ordinary or even dirty thing -- out of respect for it, regardless of what his plans for it afterward are.

I mean, I trust your read, because you have watched the episode over again and I haven't. But since Mary got the Colt on the BMOL's orders, whether Mary was showing it to Mr K as proof of receipt or to hand it over is kind of irrelevant IMO -- either way, she was showing her obedience to the BMOL by showing him the Colt.

Honestly, who knows if they even want to use the Colt for anything. They might have made her get it just so she would poke the bear. Maybe they wanted to see how she and/or TFW would handle a YED. Maybe they wanted to see if she would do what they asked. I think it's at least possible the Colt was a McGuffin and this was all a test.

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It seems a bit like Sam not contacting Dean  and John when he was in college. Maybe Sam just cuts bait until someone contacts him. It seems a bit like a pattern now. Kind of curious

I don't think that Sam is cutting bait, because he seems to be stewing. I think he's just nervous. Back in the day, he was nervous that John would hate him (he asked Dean about that and was worried about seeing John again throughout S1 IIRC). IMO he's probably just nervous that Mary will hate him, too, now. Or just that she won't like/love him. That he'll make a fool of himself. That he won't say what she wants to hear. Etc.

Sam is kind of a socially awkward guy. I can see him drafting lots of texts that he doesn't actually send, or setting aside time to call and then procrastinating and never actually making the call at all. ;)

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Maybe because he's a bit in awe of it? I'm imagining it as his version of a holy relic, a mythical object. I can see him not wanting to just snatch it from her and shove it in his bag, like it's some ordinary or even dirty thing -- out of respect for it, regardless of what his plans for it afterward are.

I think in that case he would have just asked her to give it to him instead of asking for permission to look at it. He would just say "Okay, we had a deal. Time for you to honor our bargain. I'd like the merchandise now. Mind your careful with it" in some droll English way. 

Honestly, I'm not trying to be nitpicky. To me that entire scene was there solely to drum up the reveal of the duh-duh-duh!!! THE COLT!!!! Meh. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

30 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

It would have to be Sam's choice because there is nothing to prevent Sam from texting Mary or calling her.  Dean's phone doesn't have to be broken for Sam to reach out.   Im not sure why the show is trying to make it look like Sam isn't making an effort.

It wouldn't have to be Sam's choice.  And we haven't seen anything on the show to know whether or not Sam has tried texting Mary or calling her with regularity.  Maybe he has but her answers are short and terse when he tries to engage her in conversation whereas playing Words with Friends with Dean is Safe and Neutral.  I don't think the show is trying to make it look like Sam isn't making an effort so much as Mary isn't receptive to the efforts that Sam has been making.  

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

It wouldn't have to be Sam's choice.  And we haven't seen anything on the show to know whether or not Sam has tried texting Mary or calling her with regularity.  Maybe he has but her answers are short and terse when he tries to engage her in conversation whereas playing Words with Friends with Dean is Safe and Neutral.  I don't think the show is trying to make it look like Sam isn't making an effort so much as Mary isn't receptive to the efforts that Sam has been making.  

But we haven't seen Sam make any attempts, when Mary is out of the picture so its also possible Mary isn't receptive because she thinks Sam isn't trying.  Until the show tells us its all guess work 

Edited February 21, 2017 by ILoveReading

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

But we haven't seen Sam make any attempts, so its also possible Mary isn't receptive because she thinks Sam isn't trying.  Until the show tells us its all guess work 

True at this point it's all guesswork as to whether or not Sam is keeping in touch with Mary via phone, which was kind of my point.  But we have seen Sam make attempts to reach out and connect with Mary in person.  And we have seen Mary - in this very episode - shut Sam down.  And that wasn't because he didn't try.  

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I don't think that Sam is cutting bait, because he seems to be stewing. I think he's just nervous. Back in the day, he was nervous that John would hate him (he asked Dean about that and was worried about seeing John again throughout S1 IIRC). IMO he's probably just nervous that Mary will hate him, too, now. Or just that she won't like/love him. That he'll make a fool of himself. That he won't say what she wants to hear. Etc.

Sam is kind of a socially awkward guy. I can see him drafting lots of texts that he doesn't actually send, or setting aside time to call and then procrastinating and never actually making the call at all. ;)

I don't think he was nervous to contact John and Dean. I think he was angry when John told him to never come back. He took him at his word and ceased communication IMO. I don't see why him contacting Mary would make him worry she wouldn't like him. That's an interesting viewpoint, but I don't see it that way myself.

I have to say I don't see Sam as socially awkward particularly.   He had a beautiful live in GF and friends he went to bars with. He had a ton of friends he kept in email contact with who were all bugging him about him being away from college. He hooked up with the werewolf, had a potential romance with Sarah for a hot minute, hooked up with Ruby for months, and just this season hooked up with the waitress to whom he tried to give his number. IMO Sam is to himself which I don't think is the same as being socially awkward.  But that's just me :)

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

True at this point it's all guesswork as to whether or not Sam is keeping in touch with Mary via phone, which was kind of my point.  But we have seen Sam make attempts to reach out and connect with Mary in person.  And we have seen Mary - in this very episode - shut Sam down.  And that wasn't because he didn't try.  

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I meant in the context of Mary not being around.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

It wouldn't have to be Sam's choice.  And we haven't seen anything on the show to know whether or not Sam has tried texting Mary or calling her with regularity.  Maybe he has but her answers are short and terse when he tries to engage her in conversation whereas playing Words with Friends with Dean is Safe and Neutral.  I don't think the show is trying to make it look like Sam isn't making an effort so much as Mary isn't receptive to the efforts that Sam has been making.

I didn't get the impression he's having much contact with her at all. The way he said he would text Mary to let her know to get a hold of him or Cas seemed to me like she was primarily in touch with Dean and that might just be because Dean is in touch with her. Dean was texting her first even when Sam was like "Dude, let her alone". 

I don't know why it's different but it seems to me that Sam is content to let the primary communication go on between Dean and Mary.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I meant in the context of Mary not being around.

Still, as you said it's all guesswork.  Because we also haven't not seen Sam make any attempts at communication when Mary is out of the picture.  

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

Where she's screwing up isn't actually in terms of how she's dealing with celestial beings and demons and stuff, it's in how she's dealing with human beings -- the BMOL.

Yup.  And I pointed out she doesn't know the rules by which the BMoL (HMSS) are playing also.  

[trxr4kids]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

(HMSS)

Can you remind me what this acronym stands for? 

[Diane]

2 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Can you remind me what this acronym stands for? 

Her magestry secret service

[trxr4kids]

1 minute ago, Diane said:

Her magestry secret service

Thanks Diane, I knew I should know it but....

[rue721]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think he was nervous to contact John and Dean. I think he was angry when John told him to never come back. He took him at his word and ceased communication IMO. I don't see why him contacting Mary would make him worry she wouldn't like him. That's an interesting viewpoint, but I don't see it that way myself.

I have to say I don't see Sam as socially awkward particularly.   He had a beautiful live in GF and friends he went to bars with. He had a ton of friends he kept in email contact with who were all bugging him about him being away from college. He hooked up with the werewolf, had a potential romance with Sarah for a hot minute, hooked up with Ruby for months, and just this season hooked up with the waitress to whom he tried to give his number. IMO Sam is to himself which I don't think is the same as being socially awkward.  But that's just me :)

I lay most of the blame for John and Sam's estrangement at John's feet, because it seems like John was INCREDIBLY difficult to get a hold of. Even with both Sam and Dean practically putting their lives on hold to search for him, it took him like a year to break radio silence. Plus, he was the one who kicked Sam out and triggered the estrangement in the first place. It would have been somewhere between stupid/crazy and disrespectful for Sam to show his face after that before knowing things had blown over IMO, and it didn't seem to me like he was entirely sure of that even in S1.

My point is that I don't think that Sam had much of a choice about being out of touch with him. Granted, maybe being out of touch suited Sam just fine. Just saying that I don't think it was really up to him either way. With Mary, I don't think it's up to Sam how closely they're in contact, either. Or at least, I don't think that Sam feels that it's up to him. He seems very tentative towards her IMO. I read that as nerves. YMMV.

Just like the show was clear that John didn't want to be in close contact with Sam and hadn't reached out to him much (or at all), IMO it's been clear that Mary doesn't want to be in close contact and hasn't been reaching out to him much either. IMO Sam has definitely shown more interest in being in contact with her and having a relationship with her than she has in him. It was heartbreaking that he trusted her so implicitly in this episode and she was just manipulating him.

Honestly, something that I wish they would bring up more is how Sam and Dean's relationships with John might color their relationships with Mary. I mean for all kinds of reasons. You'd think that what they want from her or how they relate to her would at least be colored by what they got or didn't get and how they related to their one other parent (who actually raised them). I mean, for example, maybe Sam wouldn't be so tentative with Mary if John had been more accepting, I dunno.

Anyway yeah, I don't mean that Sam is a friendless loser ;) He's not. But I do think he can be pretty stiff and reserved. How often does he really let loose? I feel like the guy barely even laughs. Doesn't really crack jokes. In this episode, everyone is chatting and he's busy complaining about the wifi. He also does try to open up, but how well does he actually manage to do it? You bring up Jessica, but he never even told her about his upbringing or maybe really anything about his pre-college life. She seemed sweet and maybe things would have worked out, but IMO that he was more-or-less living a lie with her was a pretty enormous red flag. So yeah, I feel like even if he wanted to spill his guts to Mary (which I actually get the sense that he might), I don't think that he's necessarily got the skills/ability to do it. That's what I mean by socially awkward. It's hard for him to be close to people. IMO it seems like he wants to be close to them, but how often does he really succeed?

55 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Yup.  And I pointed out she doesn't know the rules by which the BMoL (HMSS) are playing also.  

She does know those rules, though. They're human beings in a human organization, and she's got as much experience with humans as anybody. The BMOL aren't exactly cut from a new mold. If she doesn't realize that she shouldn't trust a bunch of fascists, who brag about how efficient they are at killing and that she literally saw torturing her own son, then she's an idiot or too afraid to think straight (or a horrible person herself, but I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt). She's not a naif. She should know better, and judging by her secrets and lies, she actually does know better.

She doesn't know the specifics of what the BMOL's plans are, but she has enough information to make a judgement call about what kind of people they are and whether she should trust them. I can't give her a pass for a lack of life experience when she is a grown woman and when the BMOL aren't even bothering to be subtle.

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, rue721 said:

My point is that I don't think that Sam had much of a choice about being out of touch with him. Granted, maybe being out of touch suited Sam just fine. Just saying that I don't think it was really up to him either way. With Mary, I don't think it's up to Sam how closely they're in contact, either. Or at least, I don't think that Sam feels that it's up to him. He seems very tentative towards her IMO. I read that as nerves. YMMV.

I'm going by what Dean said in Bugs 

Quote

DEAN: He was afraid of what could've happened to you if he wasn't around. But even when you two weren't talkin'... he used to swing by Stanford whenever he could. (SAM'S smirk fades.) Keep an eye on you. Make sure you were safe.

SAM What?

DEAN Yeah.

SAM Why didn't you tell me any of that?

DEAN Well, it's a two-way street, dude. You could've picked up the phone. (SAM stares at him sadly.) Come on, we're gonna be late for our appointment.

He walks away.

Unless one thinks Dean is not telling the truth here, it seems like it Sam knew how to reach John. I dunno. It's not like Sam was 16. He was 22 and had gone off to college in the middle of the night. So I don't think he was too afraid to call John IMO. He just didn't. It seemed to me that John wasn't always unavailable either. He was choosing to not call Dean back in Home because....reasons.  To me it was both John and Sam being stubborn idiots.

 

Anyway, so here with Mary IMO, he's making a choice to keep a distance. 

Edited February 21, 2017 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

But that doesn't tell me that Sam knew he could've picked up the phone. The "Sam stares sadly at him" seems to maybe even indicate that he didn't know that.

I agree with @rue721 that once John told Sam to stay away, he put that hostility out there that likely made Sam hesitate to reach out first. And Sam didn't just go off to college in the middle of the night, he was half thrown out in the middle of the night. For me there's a big difference. As I said concerning the fight in "When the Levee Breaks" once you get the "If you go out that door, don't bother coming back," the chances you're going out the door are pretty good, because not only did you mostly want to go anyway, but staying would suck just as much and likely breed hostility at the very least.

Now I'm not saying that Sam sat around devastated that he couldn't contact John or anything - especially considering the way they left off - but I imagine the hesitation was there. What if he called and John entirely rejected him? Better to not call and not know, than to call and be rejected. The second one is somehow more final. That's how I imagine Sam felt... and maybe it's a similar dynamic with Mary. Better to leave the idea of Mary on the table than to get a brush off and remove even the idea.

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Anyway, so here with Mary IMO, he's making a choice to keep a distance. 

He seemed to want to be close when he brought her John's journal and the gifts. But maybe he's hesitant to push her and would rather wait for a good time... just the longer he waits, the farther the good time gets away from him.

I don't know. I don't have a read on it yet.

[catrox14]

Just now, AwesomO4000 said:

But that doesn't tell me that Sam knew he could've picked up the phone. The "Sam stares sadly at him" seems to maybe even indicate that he didn't know that.

I guess to me, Sam is an adult. He can do anything he wants. If he wanted to call John, IMO he would have.  Sam with Mary. 

[shang yiet]

It's up to the kicker to make the first move, not the one being kicked out in the middle of the night. John could have picked up the phone. Dean could have done the same. They were all adults,

[denise42]

I enjoyed this episode, but i didn't like the Tarantino effect, I would have liked it more just normal, all this going backwards and forwards was confusing. I was so looking forward to Mary coming back but now i am not so sure. I thought she would be more maternal, instead she nearly kills them. I suppose i was like deans point of view of a four year old. Now it turns out she lies and can't cook.

[ILoveReading]

7 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

Can you remind me what this acronym stands for? 

According to Dean Winchester, Her Majesty secret suckbags

It's kind of an interesting dichotomy.  Dean seems to be making the effort to reach out to Mary when she's not there (texting, playing games, etc) but when he sees her the walls immediately slams down and he seems emotionally distant.

Sam seems to not be in contact with Mary at all when she leaves.  But when he sees her he tries to reach out. 

Edited February 21, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

According to Dean Winchester, Her Majesty secret suckbags

HA! and LOL! This is the one I remember, too! :-D

[Katy M]

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

It seems a bit like Sam not contacting Dean  and John when he was in college. Maybe Sam just cuts bait until someone contacts him. It seems a bit like a pattern now. Kind of curious

I don't think that's a fair comparison.  John did say, if you leave stay gone.  Not contacting after that point is a little different then just not contacting someone who's moving out.  And, no, he also did not contact Dean, but we didn't see the fight.  WE don't know what Dean said, didn't say, or did or didn't do.  I can see how each one of them would wait for the other to make the first move, both unsure of reception.

I also don't think we know for a fact that Sam and Mary have no contact.  Just because he said he was contacting Mary to let her know to contact him instead of Dean because his phone was broken, doesn't mean that they don't contact each other.  He also said the same of Cas, but we've seen Cas call Sam before.  If Sam had broken his phone, Dean probably would have had that same line.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

According to Dean Winchester, Her Majesty secret suckbags

That's how I use it.  :D

[RulerofallIsurvey]

10 hours ago, rue721 said:

She does know those rules, though. They're human beings in a human organization, and she's got as much experience with humans as anybody. The BMOL aren't exactly cut from a new mold. If she doesn't realize that she shouldn't trust a bunch of fascists, who brag about how efficient they are at killing and that she literally saw torturing her own son, then she's an idiot or too afraid to think straight (or a horrible person herself, but I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt). She's not a naif. She should know better, and judging by her secrets and lies, she actually does know better.

She doesn't know the specifics of what the BMOL's plans are, but she has enough information to make a judgement call about what kind of people they are and whether she should trust them. I can't give her a pass for a lack of life experience when she is a grown woman and when the BMOL aren't even bothering to be subtle.

I still disagree - that is, I don't think Mary really knows the rules by which the BMoL are playing.  Sure, they are a human organization and she has experience with humans.  But most of her human experience was 30 something years ago, so she's a little rusty if we go by her interaction with the guys - and I don't mean just Sam and Dean, but Wally also.  Also, the BMoL are a super-secret black ops type government organization with which I don't think she has any experience.  This is the same woman, after all, who a few eps ago (in show time, that was what?  A few months?) made a comment about 'calling up the internet.'  I don't think a few months out in the field on her own away from Sam and Dean is really enough time for her to get up to speed on all the technological/political changes that have happened since she died.  (And in this case, by political changes - I mean only the differences in hunter politics, even in the US vs. UK).

That all being said, I agree that she should know better - simply based on the fact that she knows they tortured her son.  Unless...wow.  Unless she really doesn't care about Sam at all as her son - or even as a decent human being/fellow American hunter - so the fact that they tortured him is easy enough to ignore in order accomplish her ends.  

And like you said, based on keeping secrets and lies from Sam and Dean, it seems that she really does know better.   Which makes me wonder what could possibly be her motivation for working with them that would be worth betraying her sons (unless, as I speculated, she really doesn't care about them as her sons at all - and that line to Ketch about her 'boys' was just hyperbole.)

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I don't think that's a fair comparison.  John did say, if you leave stay gone.  Not contacting after that point is a little different then just not contacting someone who's moving out.  And, no, he also did not contact Dean, but we didn't see the fight.  WE don't know what Dean said, didn't say, or did or didn't do.  I can see how each one of them would wait for the other to make the first move, both unsure of reception.

I also don't think we know for a fact that Sam and Mary have no contact.  Just because he said he was contacting Mary to let her know to contact him instead of Dean because his phone was broken, doesn't mean that they don't contact each other.  He also said the same of Cas, but we've seen Cas call Sam before.  If Sam had broken his phone, Dean probably would have had that same line.

The thing with the Stanford fight is that we also didn't see what Sam was saying.  In fact, Dean said "I remember that fight.  In fact I seem to recall a few choice phrases coming out of your mouth. "  Given how cruel and we've seen Sam been when he's angry its not hard to imagine that he probably gave as good as he got.  Or that he said something to John that was as hurtful as if your going stay gone.   Sam wasn't innocent here.

What I see happening is that Sam and John had the shouting match to end all shouting matches.  With statements being made that escalated on both sides that culminated in John's temper exploding with the get out order.   Wrong but I think John shouted it in a moment of anger.  I don't think he meant it, as evidenced by John checking up on Sam.   He didn't want Sam out of his life, I just think he was too stubborn to admit he was wrong and didn't know how to reach out or take back what he said.

What happened afterward was a combination of their stubbornness and singlemindedness, each unwilling to admit they played apart.

I think Dean tried to play peacemaker but most likely, both John and Sam ended up thinking he was siding with the other one. 

That's my head canon of how things went down.  

I hope we get a talk between the brothers about Mary soon.

Edited February 21, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Katy M]

Just now, ILoveReading said:

Sam wasn't innocent here.

That's why I said I could see both of them reluctant to reach out. I'm also hesitant to put ALL the blame on Sam when we saw none of the fight.  Sam said that John told him to not come back.  Dean did not deny that.  He said you had some choice words, too. Sam did not deny that.  That does not mean that Dean was wholly silent  the entire time.  It does not mean that any of Sam's choice words were directed at Dean.  It does not mean that Dean said anything encouraging. He could have been completely silent making Sam think that he was endorsing John's thought.  Dean did end up saying the same thing in When the Levee Breaks, although with better reason.

Who knows?  Bottom line, apparently there was no contact between Sam and Dean during the STanford years and that's a choice they both made, due to, stubbornness like you said, and I also think insecurity and fear of rejection.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I hope we get a talk between the brothers about Mary soon.

At this point one should say "wow, Amara gives THE worst gifts ever" and the other one should go "tell me about it". IMO that is one topic they could agree on because equal amounts of suckitude have been spread.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Aeryn13

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

At this point one should say "wow, Amara gives THE worst gifts ever" and the other one should go "tell me about it". IMO that is one topic they could agree on because equal amounts of suckitude have been spread.

Even Emily agreed Amara sucks as a gift giver.  I loved the shade she was throwing during that last ep.

[rue721]

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I guess to me, Sam is an adult. He can do anything he wants. If he wanted to call John, IMO he would have.  Sam with Mary. 

But it's not about what Sam wants, it's about what John or Mary want. Sam can't force someone to want to talk to him or to want to have a relationship with him.

Do you think that the problem in Sam and Mary's relationship is that he's not calling frequently enough? Like if he were calling every day, that they would somehow be close or have the relationship Sam wants? That makes no sense to me. She said she wanted space. John told him to leave and not come back. These people made it clear they wanted minimal contact at best. They specifically told Sam they didn't want to be around him. Like I said, calling them up nonstop would be somewhere between crazy and disrespectful IMO. I think you're assuming Sam has a lot more power in these relationships than he actually seems to have.

Edited February 21, 2017 by rue721

[Myrelle]

6 minutes ago, rue721 said:

But it's not about what Sam wants, it's about what John or Mary want. Sam can't force someone to want to talk to him or to want to have a relationship with him.

As per the calling, to me it's about the simple choice of whether to pick up the phone and try or not-nothing else. Nothing more and nothing less-and that goes for all of them, AFAIC, because they're all adults. And it's about what each person wants-not just one or two-and each person has to make that choice/decision for themselves-the decision of wanting to try to call, that is. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I don't think that's a fair comparison.  John did say, if you leave stay gone.  Not contacting after that point is a little different then just not contacting someone who's moving out.  And, no, he also did not contact Dean, but we didn't see the fight.  WE don't know what Dean said, didn't say, or did or didn't do.  I can see how each one of them would wait for the other to make the first move, both unsure of reception.

I also don't think we know for a fact that Sam and Mary have no contact.  Just because he said he was contacting Mary to let her know to contact him instead of Dean because his phone was broken, doesn't mean that they don't contact each other.  He also said the same of Cas, but we've seen Cas call Sam before.  If Sam had broken his phone, Dean probably would have had that same line.

Its not a perfectly apt one for one comparison nor is it entirely " unfair" either. I'm not judging nor blaming Sam here nor am I  defending John. (if anyone is inclined, my rants about John Winchester being the literal worst father ever are in the s1 and all seasons  topics).

 In general, IMO, Sam has a pattern of limiting  those communications for whatever reasons. It's not right or wrong it's just what he does, maybe to protect himself . YMMV

In regards to Mary communication , or the lack thereof, between the boys and Mary has been an ongoing theme of Mary's return SL.

In American Nightmare,  Dean was  upset with Mary for leaving and going radio silent. He was shown texting her, unbeknownst to Sam, and being frustrated that she didn't return the favor. Of course it's later shown that her battery had died so she couldnt. All that was juxtaposed with Sam admonishing Dean to give Mary space because 'sometimes it's better for families to be apart for awhile', strongly implying he was not trying to contact her himself.

Since then, I can't recall one scene of  Sam and Mary exchanging texts or phone calls. IMO there is  no good reason to not show it at least once to establish yes they do communicate with each other directly. It seems to me they are specifically not showing it which to me implies it isn't happening. This isn't like not seeing the boys stopping to pee or get a burger every road trip.

In "regarding Dean" they made a point to have Sam say, " All right, well, I'll text mom, make sure she knows to get a hold of me in case of emergency. And Cas, in case he tracks down Kelly."  Wouldn't Mary just automatically default to calling Sam if she didn't reach Dean without being to do it? To me that line was there to emphasize the lack of digital communication between Sam and Mary. Whether that is Sam or Mary's choosing or a little of both is unclear.

[SueB]

It's almost as if the interviewer knew we had these questions:

http://www.hypable.com/supernatural-davy-perez-tarantino-interview/

[Wayward Son]

Quote

Both Sam and Dean have great moments, and we see both of them in all five acts, so that should make a lot of people happy. They even have scenes together!

Someone has clearly been reading online responses hahaha

Edited February 21, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

I don't know what to make of that interview. So Mary did hand over the colt? What a weird way to write and stage  that scene.

[Annwhite7519]

On 2/17/2017 at 4:40 AM, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Why would it have to be Dean? Last nights ep showed clearly that anyone can wield the Lance. It is just a powerful weapon not some Excalibur deal. Sam used it, Ramiel used it, Crowley used it. Anyone could have used it on Lucifer except for the pesky detail that Crowley destroyed it at the end of the ep.

Maybe....just maybe.....if Dean 'tries' to put the spear together, just to see how the runes would match up, it went back together like Kevin inadvertently fixed the tablet?  That's what I was hoping when he was the one to pick up the pieces....

[Annwhite7519]

On 2/17/2017 at 4:55 AM, Geordiegirl1967 said:

It was glowing -like one of the God-touched objects from last season. The Colt never glowed. And why wrap it up as if she wasn't allowed to touch it? made no sense when the big reveal came.

I thought it was the box that was glowing, not the Colt. The box glowed then Ramiel opened it AND when Mary opened it.

[Aeryn13]

Dean carrying out the broken thing after the fact was a "nod"? And it "remains to be seen" if something comes from it. You know, I didn`t like the episode but being supremely bullshitted on top of things makes me roll my eyes so hard.

Well, at least he admits they basically do check off boxes.  

Quote

Both Sam and Dean have great moments, and we see both of them in all five acts, so that should make a lot of people happy. They even have scenes together!

And there my eyes kept rolling right out of my head. 

[Wayward Son]

14 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And there my eyes kept rolling right out of my head. 

That was definitely a sarcastic dig at both who have been complaining about his apparent dislike of Dean and the bro only fans who complain every time other characters appear. 

But, hey, at least we know he, or someone in the Supernatural team, has been reading online comments ;)

[MysteryGuest]

I don't think Sam's comments about letting Mary and Cas know to contact him instead of Dean necessarily meant that Sam has no personal contact with Mary.  I just think it was a heads up that Dean's phone was broken, so that if they need them, contact him.  We haven't specifically seen Sam call her, but I don't think it means anything.  

As for the colt, I just thought that Ketch was fascinated by it and couldn't wait to see it.  I never got the impression that Mary wasn't ultimately going to give it to him.  I think stealing it for them was the whole point of the endeavor.  

[PAForrest]

14 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean carrying out the broken thing after the fact was a "nod"? And it "remains to be seen" if something comes from it. You know, I didn`t like the episode but being supremely bullshitted on top of things makes me roll my eyes so hard.

Well, at least he admits they basically do check off boxes. 

Regarding the spear, I think he's just parroting back what the interviewer asked him about Dean picking up the spear/wondering if it would come back into play. I don't that's going to happen, and I think if the question wasn't asked at all, he wouldn't have had to come up with a "remains to be seen" response, which pretty much means no.

But, yeah, confirmation of checklist writing. That's exactly what I thought when it happened.

As for the promise that the brothers - to include Dean - will actually appear in all five acts of one of his episodes, that's definitely a response to the complaints of his first episode where Dean leaves halfway through and never appears again until the end, with no explanation. My headcanon, which was infinitely more entertaining than the episode itself, is that Dean left to get lunch, did a little shopping, and maybe stopped for a massage. There certainly was enough time for him to do all that, so I like to think he went off and pampered himself.  Heh.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't think Sam's comments about letting Mary and Cas know to contact him instead of Dean necessarily meant that Sam has no personal contact with Mary.  I just think it was a heads up that Dean's phone was broken, so that if they need them, contact him.  We haven't specifically seen Sam call her, but I don't think it means anything.  

As for the colt, I just thought that Ketch was fascinated by it and couldn't wait to see it.  I never got the impression that Mary wasn't ultimately going to give it to him.  I think stealing it for them was the whole point of the endeavor.  

But why would Sam have to say if it's an emergency to call him? To me it implies that Dean is the person Mary always calls in an emergency implying that she does not routinely or semi routinely calls Sam even in an emergency.

[MysteryGuest]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But why would Sam have to say if it's an emergency to call him? To me it implies that Dean is the person Mary always calls in an emergency implying that she does not routinely or semi routinely calls Sam even in an emergency.

I just took it to mean that if you need us in an emergency, don't call Dean.  I would guess that when some crisis comes up, they don't take the time to reach out to both brothers, so if they happened to contact Dean for that particular emergency, his response would not come in time to help them.  

[Aeryn13]

Quote

That was definitely a sarcastic dig at both who have been complaining about his apparent dislike of Dean and the bro only fans who complain every time other characters appear. 

I know. But it`s not like I can`t read up on the next ep after it airs and determine for myself if any so-called "great moments" make it in. So I just thought "haha, take that, critics" was eye-roll-worthy.

Quote

Regarding the spear, I think he's just parroting back what the interviewer asked him about Dean picking up the spear/wondering if it would come back into play. I don't that's going to happen, and I think if the question wasn't asked at all, he wouldn't have had to come up with a "remains to be seen" response, which pretty much means no.

I was surprised by the question, especially going by the "this is the greatest writing ever" intro to the article. but I agree, it was a bit of vague nonsense in response and his last remark means "nope". I don`t even get this little coyness there.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Aeryn13

[ohjoy]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I just took it to mean that if you need us in an emergency, don't call Dean.  I would guess that when some crisis comes up, they don't take the time to reach out to both brothers, so if they happened to contact Dean for that particular emergency, his response would not come in time to help them.  

MTE. Anecdotal comparison: My older sister and I are about the same years apart as Dean and Sam. Our parents converse with the both of us via text, and many times will text us both the same info or question, but sometimes it goes to only one of us. If the text goes only to one of us, unless it's something specifically for me, that text is probably going to my sister. Doesn't mean my parents don't want to keep in touch with me, or that I don't want to keep in touch with them, just that the default is my sister, because she's older. We've had times when she's left her phone somewhere and I've let them know to contact me. That's the same way I view Sam (at least until the show says otherwise).

[Aeryn13]

From everything I`ve seen in the show and all the references to Dean making contact and Sam asking him about Mary etc, I`d say he wasn`t really in contact with her. I doubt if Dean didn`t make the attempts, he`d have been in contact with her either. Very little effort seems to come from Mary and Sam might not have been sure about the right protocol or prefer it in person - he certainly makes more overtures to build a relationship when she is around.

But overall, I think Dean was the phone contact. Unfortunately for both, it`s like trying to wring something from a stone. Doesn`t matter much if you text it or talk to it, you will not get much back. 

Edited February 21, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Myrelle]

17 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Very little effort seems to come from Mary and Sam might not have been sure about the right protocol or prefer it in person - he certainly makes more overtures to build a relationship when she is around.

I have to say that I am loving how Dean is responding, or to be more specific, not responding to Mary when she's around in person. He seems as distant as she is and that works well for me considering all that he went through with John-whom Mary is very much reminding me of(more than anyone else), at this point. And it makes me wonder if Dean isn't feeling the same way.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Myrelle

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I just took it to mean that if you need us in an emergency, don't call Dean.  I would guess that when some crisis comes up, they don't take the time to reach out to both brothers, so if they happened to contact Dean for that particular emergency, his response would not come in time to help them.  

I know this shouldn't bug me so much but it doesn't really make sense to me.

In the real world that makes sense or if family doesn't live in the same state sure. But this is the every dangerous Hunter world where the boys are doing life and death everyday. The boys are living together in peace and hunting together. They haven't spent any significant time apart this season other than prison.

If Mary had an emergency and couldn't reach Dean immediately, I have no idea why she wouldn't immediately contact Sam. Like why would she even wait more than 2 minutes for Dean to answer or call her back. Wouldn't that be Hunter's Emergency Contact Tree 101

1) Dean 2) Sam 3) Cas 4) Jody 5) Donna 6) The hunter twins in 7) desperation contact Boris and Natasha 8) Jesse and Cesar even and other random hunters they have on their list

The way that scene played for me is that Sam felt he had to pointedly tell Mary to call him and I just don't get the point of it.

[SueB]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I know this shouldn't bug me so much but it doesn't really make sense to me.

In the real world that makes sense or if family doesn't live in the same state sure. But this is the every dangerous Hunter world where the boys are doing life and death everyday. The boys are living together in peace and hunting together. They haven't spent any significant time apart this season other than prison.

If Mary had an emergency and couldn't reach Dean immediately, I have no idea why she wouldn't immediately contact Sam. Like why would she even wait more than 2 minutes for Dean to answer or call her back. Wouldn't that be Hunter's Emergency Contact Tree 101

1) Dean 2) Sam 3) Cas 4) Jody 5) Donna 6) The hunter twins in 7) desperation contact Boris and Natasha 8) Jesse and Cesar even and other random hunters they have on their list

The way that scene played for me is that Sam felt he had to pointedly tell Mary to call him and I just don't get the point of it.

When my family is be-bopping around town and my husband's phone dies, I'll tweet the kids that Dad's cell is dead and call me if they need him.  9 out of 10 times I'm the first call ANYWAY, but it's just our standard protocol to let the rest of the family know if someone is going to be unexpectedly out of contact.  Maybe Dean does phone better.  In my family, if the three of them are away from me, the first call goes to my son as he's most likely to pick up.  Second to my daughter, who may or maynot have the phone on silent, and third to my husband (who likely has the phone off or left it in the car).  It's just their phone habits.  If I'm trying to get a hold of someone who does "good phone" and they don't answer, I'm surprised if I don't get a call back (even without leaving a message) within a couple of hours.  In fact, I'd be worried, based on their known habits.

Bottom line -- in real life, seems pretty natural. In show context, not emphasized enough for me to decide it's a "thing".  

[rue721]

Regardless of anything else, I would think that Sam and Dean would want to let Mary know that Dean's phone is busted so that if she calls him and the phone goes straight to voicemail or something, she'll know that it's not because he's dead or there's some emergency that's made him go MIA. And of course at the same time, Sam would be like, "just call me instead," since he and Dean are going to be together anyway.

Yeah, she could and maybe would just call Sam immediately after failing to reach Dean, but this way she'll know what's up and not worry when she discovers Dean's "unreachable."

My own anecdata:  I forgot my phone in my car at the airport on Sunday, so once I arrived at the hotel and got online, I emailed my mom to let her know that I didn't have my phone. Not because she was necessarily going to contact me, but just in case she did try to contact me and I was MIA, she wouldn't be worried as to why.

Edited February 21, 2017 by rue721