S12.E12: Stuck in the Middle (With You)

[Aeryn13]

Hey, if their goal was to make me go "good riddance" if they kill Mary off again by the end of the Season, then mission accomplished. At this point I couldn`t care less and even if the brothers would be sad, I don`t see how it would be a devastating loss anymore. It`d be like losing more or less a stranger. 

[ahrtee]

15 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

The whole demon hierarchy and history is a mess by this point. My best guest is it went as follows: 

Lilith was the very first demon created as a massive "feck you to God". (This has been explicitly stated in canon)

Then Alastair was created. Maybe he was to confirm that the process with Lilith could be repeated. (I'm guessing this by the fact that he too is meant to be extremely old and the only other white eyed demon we've seen. Of course we don't know for sure because show seems to have forgotten him.)

Alistair was known to be the master torturer of Hell.  He said he hated to go topside--too cold, and reality was "too concrete."  So maybe that was his role--to take charge of the punishment side of Hell.  Lilith was to lure people into giving up their souls, Alistair took care of the dirty work.  Then they recruited others to work with them.

Since this is the first we heard of the "princes of hell," your guess is as good as mine.  Maybe Lucifer wanted children even then.  Or maybe Heaven didn't really care about what Lucifer was doing until he and his followers started gathering so many souls and siphoning all that power away from heaven, so that's when the wars started and both sides needed soldiers.  

[Wayward Son]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Alistair was known to be the master torturer of Hell.  He said he hated to go topside--too cold, and reality was "too concrete."  So maybe that was his role--to take charge of the punishment side of Hell.  Lilith was to lure people into giving up their souls, Alistair took care of the dirty work.  Then they recruited others to work with them.

That makes perfect sense to explain his function :).

Thanks for replying with your thoughts.

[auntvi]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yes, he's handsome and an asshole but I there is something I like about him. Help me.

Maybe it's the accent? Imagine he looks and sounds like Joe Pesci. ;)

[catrox14]

Just now, auntvi said:

Maybe it's the accent? Imagine he looks and sounds like Joe Pesci. ;)

Ha. If Joe Pesci played suave....maybe.  LOL

[Bergamot]

I kind of liked Wally in this episode and was sad that he got killed. I liked him when he enthusiastically joined in with Dean's "teachable moment" for Cas about the waitress, and I liked his plain-spoken honesty when he said that he had never dealt with a demon before and needed help as to how to handle it.

I did think it was odd, and was wondering if he was just being polite, when at their first meeting Wally said to Dean and Sam that their mother had been telling him all these good things about the two of them. What kind of things did she tell Wally about them, considering that I am still wondering how much she knows about their life histories? And if Mary could praise her sons when talking to some random hunter, why can't she say these things to their faces? I have never forgotten Dean telling Lucas in "Dead in the Water" how every day he does his best to be brave, because he believes that's what his mother would have wanted. Just think what it would have meant to Dean to have Mary, when she came back and started learning about his life, tell him that she was proud of how brave he had been!

[Diane]

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I have a confession to make.

I kind of like....Mr. Ketchup.  (That's my name for him) 

Yes, he's handsome and an asshole but I there is something I like about him. Help me.

I like him too, I am pretty sure we are not supposed too.  But I do heaven help me.

[rue721]

I just don't think that Crowley was acting that strategically in this episode.

Dean told him to help or get out, so he went right to the Prince and pleaded for their lives. When the Prince wasn't amiable, he even offered to make a deal. IMO that was admirably loyal. Crowley's head was on the line, too, because part of his original deal was that he would keep anyone from bothering the Prince, too. But honestly, the Prince didn't seem to care much about that, and Crowley also didn't seem that worried for himself, so I think Crowley was putting himself in more danger rather than less by sticking up for them. If he had been solely looking out for himself, I don't think he would have outright declared that they were his allies and that that was nonnegotiable, the way that he did.

Also, when Crowley broke the lance to save Cas, he was sacrificing a valuable object -- and apparently without a second thought, and only on the *chance* that it would help out Cas. He could have left with the lance, or tried to use it as a bargaining chip, or even just stayed but decided to keep quiet and not to risk damaging it to help a friend. IMO any of those choices would have been the more practical approach, because "a bird in the hand..." in terms of keeping the lance, and because he couldn't have been blamed if Cas had died, since the idea of saving him by breaking the lance didn't even occur to anyone else. But he went for it anyway. IMO that decision was costly and impractical enough to have at least a whiff of altruism about it.

We also saw from the flashback to him becoming king of hell that he's actually less power hungry and less strategic than I guess I would have thought. This position really just fell into his lap, and he was even pretty tentative about taking it. Which IMO is actually in character, too, now that I think about it. He doesn't tend to dream big. He sold his soul for a slightly bigger dick IIRC, after all. His idea of hell is waiting in endless lines. His idea of a palace is an abandoned nuthouse. So while he's a smart guy and I think it's possible he's got some grand scheme in the works, I think it's also likely that his supposed grand scheme is actually something pretty pathetic, small, and grubby. Like maybe his grand scheme seems like it would be to seduce the "good guys" into doing his bidding or acting as his pawns or something...but I think it's actually turning out to be more likely that he just wants them to like him.

And, even from a purely pragmatic standpoint, I don't think that doing the Winchesters favors is likely to earn him that much "extra credit" with them. His ability to get them to work with him is based on what he can do for them now and in the future, not based on what he's done for them in the past. So making deals with them or making them promises for future help would make sense, but just doing them favors really isn't that useful.

Anyway, I don't know what will come of Lucifer's "manipulations" at the very end. Crowley did seem kind of troubled, but who knows why. I don't think that he'd ever listen to Lucifer, because he really, really despises the guy. But who knows!

ETA:  sorry, this is in response to a post that's now way upthread. On mobile, so quoting is a pain. Will fix later if too confusing!

Edited February 17, 2017 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

41 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

The whole demon hierarchy and history is a mess by this point. My best guest is it went as follows: 

Lilith was the very first demon created as a massive "feck you to God". (This has been explicitly stated in canon)

Then Alastair was created. Maybe he was to confirm that the process with Lilith could be repeated. (I'm guessing this by the fact that he too is meant to be extremely old and the only other white eyed demon we've seen. Of course we don't know for sure because show seems to have forgotten him.)

After that the yellow eyed Demons / Princes of Hell. They were extremely powerful demons who were intended to act as generals in the war against heaven. 

The regular demons soon followed. One of them (Cain) was chosen to bear the mark of Cain and train a selection of demons he had chosen to upgrade as key warriors under the generals (knights of hell). 

I think Alistair was an underling demon; old and powerful, but not one of the first, though. It's all in the eyes...I think?

This is my order of the Hell hierarchy:

• White-eyed demon: Lucifer creates Lilith as a screw you to God
• Yellow-eyed demons: Making Lilith didn't it didn't get God's wrath enough, so he made a few more, the Princes. Probably what got God to order Michael to chuck (HEE!) Lucifer in Hell.
• Black-eyed demons: My theory is Lilith made these guys following in the footsteps of Lucifer after he was locked away in Hell. Both Cain and Abaddon had black eyes, as I recall, so I think the Knights weren't made by Lucifer himself. Didn't Cain say he chose and trained them all?
• Red-eyed demons: The little salesmen who keep Hell up and running by procuring souls.

Edited February 17, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think Alistair was an underling demon; old and powerful, but not one of the first, though. It's all in the eyes...I think?

This is my order of the Hell hierarchy:

• White-eyed demon: Lucifer creates Lilith as a screw you to God
• Yellow-eyed demons: Making Lilith didn't it didn't get God's wrath enough, so he made a few more, the Princes. Probably what got God to order Michael to chuck (HEE!) Lucifer in Hell.
• Black-eyed demons: My theory is Lilith made these guys following in the footsteps of Lucifer after he was locked away in Hell. Both Cain and Abaddon had black eyes, as I recall, so I think the Knights weren't made by Lucifer himself. Didn't Cain say he chose and trained them all?
• Red-eyed demons: The little salesmen who keep Hell up and running by procuring souls.

I've always seen it as relating to the eye colour also. I think @ahrtee offered a good explanation for the role of Lilith and Alastair i.e Lilith was designed to seduce humanity into giving up their souls, while Alastair was to torture their souls until they became demons also. 

I also think they may have been the only demons hand created by Lucifer. As far as I can recall the princes, knights etc were said to be "picked" by Lucifer for their role. Lilith is the only one explicitly stated to be "made" by him. 

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I've always seen it as relating to the eye colour also. I think @ahrtee offered a good explanation for the role of Lilith and Alastair i.e Lilith was designed to seduce humanity into giving up their souls, while Alastair was to torture their souls until they became demons also. 

I also think they may have been the only demons hand created by Lucifer. As far as I can recall the princes, knights etc were said to be "picked" by Lucifer for their role. Lilith is the only one explicitly stated to be "made" by him. 

Actually, I believe it was said in this episode the Princes were made by Lucifer himself. After Lilith, before the other crap.

[Wayward Son]

14 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Actually, I believe it was said in this episode the Princes were made by Lucifer himself. After Lilith, before the other crap.

Oops, I really should have waited until I had a chance to watch it again before commenting. Thanks for pointing that out :)

[AwesomO4000]

52 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Like maybe his grand scheme seems like it would be to seduce the "good guys" into doing his bidding or acting as his pawns or something...but I think it's actually turning out to be more likely that he just wants them to like him.

I think he's got a better chance with Dean and especially Castiel - who seems to have a soft spot for semi-helpful demons (*cough* Meg *cough*). Crowley should know better with Sam, though. Sam already hated him when they met - his experience with Ruby didn't help on that front - but when Crowley killed Sarah and helped get Dean turned into a demon, I'm pretty sure he put himself at the top of Sam's shit list for a long, long time.

Edited to add: I think actually Crowley has a thing for Castiel, myself. This wasn't the first time that he saved Cas. He also saved him back in season 9 when he took that angel's grace and gave it to Castiel. And I honestly think he enjoyed playing buddy-cop with him earlier while looking for Lucifer. I'm thinking Cas is his new crush since Dean broke his heart.

Edited February 17, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[Wynne88]

I would have an easier time with the idea that Mary is trying to make the world a safer place for Sam and Dean before getting herself killed and going back to heaven if there was ever any indication that she even liked them.  I've had more positive interactions with perfect strangers, including the occasional hug and breakfast.  The motivation just isn't showing.

[catrox14]

Crowley saved Cas to solve his demon!Dean disaster. But I think he might still have some kind of designs on Dean or a minimum can't stand the thought that Dean hates him. I think he's always wanted Dean to respect him or at least like him. I think if he saves Cas, Dean will appreciate him again and not think he's such a bad guy.

And I think he has another agenda. It reminds me a bit of getting the First Blade into Dean's hands.  He might have another goal to get the Michael Spear into Dean's hands.  Maybe Cas was a casualty he didn't expect but if he saved him he garners some cache with Dean for saving Dean's BF..F  and it puts the weapon in Dean's hands. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

17 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Michael is still in the Cage he's just in a corner diddling himself according to Lucifer which might just be a lie.

I refuse to believe that.  My head cannon is that Guck got him out.  [I cannot rectify that Guck would leave his first born in the cage after he made up with Lucifer.]  When He said that Michael was in no shape to fight, it's because Michael was R&Ring on tropical beach somewhere.  That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

17 hours ago, Katy M said:

Wait, I decided I'm looking at this all wrong.  Bed bugs.  How are you going to kill a bedbug with a bullet.

Roaches, man.  Roaches.

14 hours ago, SueB said:

I am, of course, very upset with Mary.  I think she's trying to team with BMoL to get rid of monsters so Sam and Dean can be safe.  But it's stupid, it's Winchester 101, and the boys stopped that shit a few years ago.  Yes they've kept some secrets but this full-on 'work with the Bad Guys' is S5.  Not that I think it's bad writing.  I just think Mary hasn't learned what Sam and Dean have.  And her guilt is driving her to stupid decisions.  Plus she totally wants to go back to Heeeeaaaaavan (sing it like Buffy).  The boys don't want her to kill all the monsters.  The boys just want her to be around.  She's abandoned them because she thinks she's doing the right thing.  *head-desk*.  Of course she hasn't learned from their mistakes.  She wasn't there to see them.  So she's just repeating them. *head-desk*

That is an excellent theory on Mary's motivations.  There is something no quite right about her based on her response to Sam asking how she was doing and noting that she never wanted this life was, "Since when it life about getting what you want?"  That was a very cynical line to me and stood out.

However, she'd learn more of what Sam and Dean know if she spent a little time with them.

Speaking of learning what Sam and Dean know - as much as I enjoyed the diner scene, the one thing that bothered me about it, was why was Mary calling the shots?  Sam and Dean and Cas have all the demon experience.  And Hello?  They took down Lucifer!  So why are they meekly following Mary's plan - who, as far as we know, before she came back from the dead (and maybe even since) never took out a demon?

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- I knew Wally was a red shirt.

::Sniff::

I really am sad about Wally.  Plus, it seemed like he and Dean had things in common.  In fact, all the boys seemed like they were having a good time hanging out in the diner together (before they had to get down to business.)  So them losing a potential friend ticks me off.

I don't understand why Sam was so worried about the internet connection.  He mentioned having access to their MoL files, but since Mary was providing all the intel (through HMSS, unbeknownst to them) what did it matter?  Other than, that's just Sam.  :)

10 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Crowley destroyed it so that option is off the table. Or maybe some duct tape and superglue....?

Ah...the many uses of duct tape!

7 hours ago, TexasGal said:

I can't believe Mary still gave BMoL the Colt.

This.  This right here.  I thought for sure at the end she was going to say, 'Nope, I think I'll keep it.'  Or lie and say she didn't get it because of Ramiel.  And even after she knew about what it was (because she father told her stories about it) I just cannot fathom that she so easily handed it over. 

6 hours ago, bethy said:

They really aren't trying to make us feel much sympathy for Mary, are they? One of the scenes that got me was when she came into the room where Sam was working on the devil's trap or something, asked where Dean was, then turned to walk out immediately. Sam called her back for a reason I can't remember, but I was struck by her evident, complete lack of concern about Sam. No, "How have you been?" No, "It's been a while." No attempt at all to connect with her son. It made me sad for Sam, who clearly wants some sort of relationship with her. He's the one who said, "Sorry, Mom," in the diner. For all his, "She was never going to cook and clean for us" to Dean, he's the one, to me, who has embraced her momness more than Dean.

This and what I said about about her response to his question.  But I think she was only asking where Dean was to make sure they were both occupied so that no one would see her retrieving the gun.  

I can't believe they left Ramiel's place and didn't raid his stash of weapons.  Of course, Sam and Dean wouldn't have known about them, unless Mary told them.  Which, I'm sure she didn't tell them.  Another stupid mark for Mary.

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

Also, when Crowley broke the lance to save Cas, he was sacrificing a valuable object -- and apparently without a second thought, and only on the *chance* that it would help out Cas. He could have left with the lance, or tried to use it as a bargaining chip, or even just stayed but decided to keep quiet and not to risk damaging it to help a friend. IMO any of those choices would have been the more practical approach, because "a bird in the hand..." in terms of keeping the lance, and because he couldn't have been blamed if Cas had died, since the idea of saving him by breaking the lance didn't even occur to anyone else. But he went for it anyway. IMO that decision was costly and impractical enough to have at least a whiff of altruism about it.

The boys had a look of genuine surprise - and possibly something else bordering on respect - after Crowley broke the lance and saved Cas.  I thought that was very interesting.  

[Wynne88]

Quote

Speaking of learning what Sam and Dean know - as much as I enjoyed the diner scene, the one thing that bothered me about it, was why was Mary calling the shots?  Sam and Dean and Cas have all the demon experience.  And Hello?  They took down Lucifer!  So why are they meekly following Mary's plan - who, as far as we know, before she came back from the dead (and maybe even since) never took out a demon?

Really good point!

[Katy M]

44 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't understand why Sam was so worried about the internet connection.  He mentioned having access to their MoL files, but since Mary was providing all the intel (through HMSS, unbeknownst to them) what did it matter?  Other than, that's just Sam.  :)

Because: 
Sam loves research. He does. He keeps it under his mattress right next to his KY. It's a sickness.

[AwesomO4000]

@Katy M, that made me laugh. Thank you.

*channeling Karen Walker* It's funny 'cuz it's true.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Speaking of learning what Sam and Dean know - as much as I enjoyed the diner scene, the one thing that bothered me about it, was why was Mary calling the shots?  Sam and Dean and Cas have all the demon experience.  And Hello?  They took down Lucifer!  So why are they meekly following Mary's plan - who, as far as we know, before she came back from the dead (and maybe even since) never took out a demon?

Did you not hear her MOM voice? ;)

[Morrigan2575]

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Edited to add: I think actually Crowley has a thing for Castiel, myself. This wasn't the first time that he saved Cas. He also saved him back in season 9 when he took that angel's grace and gave it to Castiel. And I honestly think he enjoyed playing buddy-cop with him earlier while looking for Lucifer. I'm thinking Cas is his new crush since Dean broke his heart.

I agree, i think Crowley really likes/cares about  Castiel and Dean, not sure about Sam. 

I get the feeling that Crowley's story for the last couple of years has been "it's lonely at the top". The Winchesters, Castiel and Rowena are pretty much the only people he can be himself around.

In this episode I don't think Crowley had an agenda, he just went to help, like Dean said (help or get out). However,  I do worry what Lucifer is going to do to Crowley.  All those nasty thoughts he's whispering in Crowley's ear. Lucifer is the master manipulator. 

I still want my Crowley/Castiel Good Omens Road Trip...they already have the antichrist in the works. Come on, give me Crowley and Castiel cruising around listening to Queen and a Hellhound turned into a cute little puppy!

Edited February 17, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[Wayward Son]

Random question; Mary mentioned the episode she is technically 60. What age is she meant to be biologically? In other words what age did she die the first time? 

Edit: I checked the wikia. She was born in December 1954 and died in November 1983. That means she was 29 when she died. If we add say six months since her resurrection that'd make her say 30 biologically.

Wow she's actually younger than the boys, and they really should have used the actress they cast as young Mary for In the Beginning.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Dobian]

I forgot to say that Cas glubbing up black sludge was horrifyingly cool, about the coolest thing I've seen on this show in a long time.  I had to rewind to watch it again.

[MysteryGuest]

6 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Random question; Mary mentioned the episode she is technically 60. What age is she meant to be biologically? In other words what age did she die the first time? 

Her age is a bit fuzzy.  Realistically, she probably got pregnant with Dean when she was in her early to mid 20's, and then died when he was four, so I think the absolute oldest she should be is about 30.   But the problem is that Sam Smith, while certainly lovely, doesn't look 30.  She's in her 40's and looks it, which is no sin.  I think that in order to make the time line work, we're just not supposed to look at it too closely.

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Her age is a bit fuzzy.  Realistically, she probably got pregnant with Dean when she was in her early to mid 20's, and then died when he was four, so I think the absolute oldest she should be is about 30.   But the problem is that Sam Smith, while certainly lovely, doesn't look 30.  She's in her 40's and looks it, which is no sin.  I think that in order to make the time line work, we're just not supposed to look at it too closely.

 Yeah, I checked the wikia! Biologically Mary should be 30. It's a shame really they didn't bring back the actress who played her in In the Beginning or The Song Remains the Same. The dynamic of them having a mother who is technically younger than them could have been quite interesting to explore. 

Edited February 17, 2017 by Wayward Son

[MysteryGuest]

Well, while Amy Gumenick was good as young Mary in the flashback scenes, Sam Smith was the actress they used throughout the series whenever they showed Mary in photographs, or if some monster, demon or angel used her likeness to screw with the boys.  I think she's the one most of us think of as their mother, even though bringing her back does force us to overlook the age issue a bit.  It bothered me a bit in the very beginning, but I don't really think about it anymore.

[Commando Cody]

At the end, I felt like they were swapping Rowena out with Lucifer in the "The Winchesters are not your friends" speech.  We have covered that one before.  The writers like to prove the bad guys right all the time.  

Crowley did save Cas's life. They may not ever accept him into their inner circle, but that has to give him some sort of concession. Cas and Crowley did spend some time investigating together.  Cas and Crowley have quite a bit of history over the years. Crowley may not want to let that go. 

[rue721]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think actually Crowley has a thing for Castiel, myself. This wasn't the first time that he saved Cas. He also saved him back in season 9 when he took that angel's grace and gave it to Castiel. And I honestly think he enjoyed playing buddy-cop with him earlier while looking for Lucifer. I'm thinking Cas is his new crush since Dean broke his heart.

Was Crowley in the room while Cas was saying his goodbyes, and said that he loved "you, all of you"? Because if so, then I think that that's why Crowley did it.

I only got to see the episode in bits and pieces because of how early it starts (grumble grumble), so I'll know better on rewatch. But when Cas said he loved them, and made sure include EVERYBODY in that sentiment, that was actually what I was wondering immediately -- if he was referring to Crowley as well as to the Winchesters. In a way, IMO it would make perfect sense if he was. Angels are dicks and all, but they do have grace, and isn't grace what makes it possible for any sinner to be forgiven and loved? If anybody could love him, I guess it would be Cas.

In any case, Crowley said that being loved was important to him (back when Sam was curing him), and I figure that's the truth. So IMO if he thought that Cas was telling him he loved him like family, that actually would be pretty likely to mean something to him.

I don't think that he has a particular ~thing~ for Cas (as opposed to the other members of TFW), but Cas hasn't rejected him as thoroughly and consistently as Sam and Dean have, so Crowley has also been the most unambiguously friendly toward him, and the least resentful toward him. But I think he feels pretty strongly each member of TFW!

Another thing I was wondering about is what Crowley's take on Mary's appearance and her relationship with everyone. I mean, almost this exact thing happened to Crowley like a year or two ago -- his long lost mom reappearing, and him having a difficult time creating a relationship with her or even understanding her. I wasn't surprised that the Winchesters didn't mention that they had just seen Rowena and she had helped them out, but I think it would have been interesting if they had.

[Goldmoon]

I only watched it once, today on the CW app on my television.  I had never seen Reservoir Dogs but saw the same slow walk made fun of in Coupling, so that wasn't too bad.  Whose idea was it to cut up the timeline like that?  Writer or director?  I am normally in favor of narrative being non-linear, but that was jarring!  Firefly did it so perfectly in "Out of Gas." I think the story would have been better served by being linear, although I would like to see them create a more linear non-linear story in the future. LOL.

No one has mentioned the Colt bullets.  The Colt only works with the original bullets and I don't remember how many Dean and Sam used up once they had the weapon.  Are we to assume that the Colt is loaded with all the remaining bullets?  Was the close up of dean loading his weapon meant to remind us of the Colt's special bullets with the runes on them?

Got a lot to process, but I will start with Dean's lack of reaction to Cas's immanent death.  Really?  He couldn't squat next to Cas and place a hand on his shoulder while his friend was dying?

Binns said

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...genuinely worried about Cas. I felt like Dean would have been a bit more upset though? 

Catrox added

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I'm going with Dean was in shock that the only other person he loves like family was possibly dying and that he just couldn't comprehend it.  It's all I got. 

And SueB said

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I gotta say, if they filmed this episode while Jensen was nervous and distracted, it sure didn't show.

Sorry Sue, I have to disagree.  If he was worried about his wife and future kids, maybe that's why he looked zoned out.  I really do NOT excuse JA for not bringing his best talent here.  Especially since Misha, who doesn't always impress with his monotone, really brought it in this episode.  Misha sold the hell out of that scene while Sam looked constipated and Dean thought about pie.  It is possible that JA or RS wanted to avoid the Destial overtones, but the tone was off.  I have to say I resent Mary for being granted instant status as this important connection to Cas.  He and the boys have been through all kinds of hell with and without others (Bobby, Jo, Ellen, for starters) and Mary hasn't earned his unwavering loyalty.  I can only assume he has extended his feelings for Sam and Dean to their mother because they care about her.

Wayward Son said it best

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I hope to write a proper review later tonight or tomorrow, but I hated the brothers reaction to Castiel's declaration of love for them as a family. I didnt even expect them to say it back, but they could have said "we care for you" or something. Anything would have beat them just staring gormlessly at him.

Hee.

[Goldmoon]

To quote DarkBlood8

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Hated: I officially hate Mary now. She makes me miss Charlie (who I thought was a massive Mary Sue). So far Mary has killed the LoL that beat Dean and Cas, saved her boys from Toni, helped exorcise a demon, took out a vampire that Castiel bungled, helped Asa's kids take out a werewolf pack, hunt a shapeshifter, knock out 6 vampire nests, 4 werewolf packs and a ghoul feeding in Arlington ( all in 12 episodes). I just wish I could see those stories with the characters I have actually cared about for 12 years. Mary continues to be a horrible Mother. I used to think the tragedy was that Sam and Dean lost a loving family and normal life. Now I think it's that Sam and Dean were never going to have loving parents. I wonder if Samuel had succeeded in resurrecting Mary if she would even care that it cost her her sons.  Is it too late for Dean to call up Amara and trade Mary in for a Bobby?

I think Dean needed the idea of Mary much more than the real thing.

I sure wish we could have Bobby back! And from Aeryn13

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Hey, if their goal was to make me go "good riddance" if they kill Mary off again by the end of the Season, then mission accomplished. At this point I couldn`t care less and even if the brothers would be sad, I don`t see how it would be a devastating loss anymore. It`d be like losing more or less a stranger. 

I was not in favor of them bringing Mary back at all, but I do think the theme is Be Careful What You Wish For.  Mary could have remained the closest thing to an angel or a saint in Dean's mind, but now that he knows her better he has to be disappointed.  I think one of the problems is that they called her "Mom" right away instead of "Mary." Perhaps if they had thought - or now started thinking - of her as another hunter, they might be able to get enough perspective to process their own feelings later.  When DittyDotDot refers to

Quote

Did you not hear her MOM voice? ;)

that for me is the crux of the problem with her character.  As RuleofallIsurvey asks, why is Mary calling the shots in the diner?  This bothered me earlier in the season when she expected the boys to defer to her and claimed shotgun, when that is Sam's seat.  Mary hasn't earned the title of mother, nor the title of leader, nor the respect the boys would have for her if she had been around for the past 34 years.  Yet she feels entitled to the respect and the obedience that comes with it, although as others have pointed out, Sam and Dean have far more experience than she.

[DittyDotDot]

25 minutes ago, Goldmoon said:

No one has mentioned the Colt bullets.  The Colt only works with the original bullets and I don't remember how many Dean and Sam used up once they had the weapon.  Are we to assume that the Colt is loaded with all the remaining bullets?  Was the close up of dean loading his weapon meant to remind us of the Colt's special bullets with the runes on them?

Ruby fixed the gun in S3 and they suddenly had more bullets too. So, no, I don't think the Colt is loaded with the original bullets.

[Goldmoon]

Did not know Ruby changed the gun!  Thanks Ditty.

[Demented Daisy]

32 minutes ago, Goldmoon said:

I have to say I resent Mary for being granted instant status as this important connection to Cas.  He and the boys have been through all kinds of hell with and without others (Bobby, Jo, Ellen, for starters) and Mary hasn't earned his unwavering loyalty.  I can only assume he has extended his feelings for Sam and Dean to their mother because they care about her.

Well, they do have a connection that he doesn't have with Sam and Dean -- namely, the 6 weeks Sam and Dean were imprisoned.  I would imagine working together to find them would have bonded Mary and Castiel in a way.

But, hey, mileage varies.

[ahrtee]

15 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Ruby fixed the gun in S3 and they suddenly had more bullets too. So, no, I don't think the Colt is loaded with the original bullets.

She gave them more bullets (I don't think the gun needed fixing at that time, just more ammo).  Bobby had taken it apart to see how it worked, but he still used it to shoot Ruby (with a non-special bullet) when she showed up.

Then when Crowley gave them the gun back in Abandon All Hope he tossed them a full pack (or whatever the terminology is) of bullets.  I don't think Dean used any on the hellhounds in that ep, so he only used one on Lucifer before losing the gun (again.)  Besides, it looks like Crowley can make as  many bullets as necessary.  

I think this time Dean was loading his regular gun with devil's trap bullets (as Grandpa Henry taught him).

Edited February 18, 2017 by ahrtee

[Mick Lady]

14 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

We know it can kill Princes of Hell because it killed Azazel. Who knows about the horsemen but they are all dead now anyway.

 Oh man, Geordiegirl! Thank you, Mick and I just had a big "ah ha!" moment because of you!

Supernatural fans are the best!

[MysteryGuest]

48 minutes ago, Goldmoon said:

Sorry Sue, I have to disagree.  If he was worried about his wife and future kids, maybe that's why he looked zoned out.  I really do NOT excuse JA for not bringing his best talent here.  Especially since Misha, who doesn't always impress with his monotone, really brought it in this episode.  Misha sold the hell out of that scene while Sam looked constipated and Dean thought about pie.  It is possible that JA or RS wanted to avoid the Destial overtones, but the tone was off.

I honestly didn't see this at all.  I thought Dean's reaction was perfect for Dean.  I'm not sure what you would have wanted him to do?  He looked devastated to me, but to each his own.

[rue721]

4 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

That is an excellent theory on Mary's motivations.  There is something no quite right about her based on her response to Sam asking how she was doing and noting that she never wanted this life was, "Since when it life about getting what you want?"  That was a very cynical line to me and stood out.

That line really stood out to me, too. IMO that's not so much cynical as it is resigned, though? I actually think that maybe she's trying to accept her situation and just keep moving forward, based on that line.

I will also say for her that last time they had a hunt together, she and Sam and Dean couldn't work together at all. It was a big mess. So, despite the Secrets & Lies she has going on, I guess that they are all communicating better (on a concrete/surface level) at least.

What really bothers me about Mary is that she's working with the BMOL. She *saw* a BMOL agent torturing Sam. Even if she cares nothing for Sam as her son, she knows he's a good person, and that torturing him was wrong. How can she work for an organization that does things like that? Does she have no scruples?

And IMO she's working *for* the BMOL, not *with* the BMOL. She's taking their orders and doing their bidding. That's not just her following through on a deal that she cut, that's employment. Which IMO is worse, because being obedient to an organization like that is just such SUCH a terrible idea.

I also emotionally don't understand how she can betray Sam by working for the people who tortured him. He's calling her mom like there's no tomorrow, utterly innocent to what she's up to, and she's meanwhile colluding with his TORTURERS?! That's just cruel. How can she not feel horrible guilt over that?

But honestly, I go back and forth on Mary because I do think she's trying. She's an orphan and an only child, so I don't really have a problem with her being a natural loner, and being a bit distant and aloof. IMO that makes sense and isn't necessarily a bad thing. And IMO she hasn't rejected Sam and Dean, she's just really struggled to warm up to them. I can understand why she would have trouble loving and accepting Sam and Dean as her sons. She has to give up her own idealized images of her kids (from Heaven) in order to accept the not-ideal men they ultimately became, and maybe she's not ready to do that. She's not ready to give up her heaven!family and her heaven!life. That's fine IMO. That takes time and she can't force it. And to be frank, I don't think Sam and Dean necessarily handled bonding with her in the most practical or efficient way, either. They didn't do a lot to get to know her as a person other than their mom, just like she didn't do a lot to get to know them aside from as her not-sons. IMO it's a difficult situation all around and I don't blame anyone for it...or really worry much about it, because IMO it seems like a "time heals all wounds" kind of thing.

But her decisions regarding the BMOL are something different and separate from all that IMO. She said that she's impressed with the BMOL's efficiency, but how can she not think about their methods any more deeply than that? And how can she think that the BMOL are better at hunting than Sam and Dean, who have stopped a shit ton of apocalypses by now? If she's looking for efficient and powerful hunters to ally with, she could try allying with...y'know, Sam and Dean!

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Goldmoon said:

Sorry Sue, I have to disagree.  If he was worried about his wife and future kids, maybe that's why he looked zoned out.  I really do NOT excuse JA for not bringing his best talent here.  Especially since Misha, who doesn't always impress with his monotone, really brought it in this episode.  Misha sold the hell out of that scene while Sam looked constipated and Dean thought about pie.  It is possible that JA or RS wanted to avoid the Destial overtones, but the tone was off.  I have to say I resent Mary for being granted instant status as this important connection to Cas.  He and the boys have been through all kinds of hell with and without others (Bobby, Jo, Ellen, for starters) and Mary hasn't earned his unwavering loyalty.  I can only assume he has extended his feelings for Sam and Dean to their mother because they care about her.

@Goldmoon

FWIW, just to clarify, I altered my opinion upon a rewatch. I think JA played Dean's reaction to Cas' plight spot on. I wrote about in another post upthread.  It was beautiful nuanced work from JA, IMO

[Mick Lady]

9 hours ago, SueB said:

I suspect she is both intentionally and unintentionally keeping distant because she's planning her exit strategy.  She doesn't want to come back and fall in the love with THESE boys -- then her heaven won't be her little boys with John.  She also doesn't want them to become too entwined with her because she intends to die sooner rather than later.  I'm telling 'ya, I think Mary is on a mission to get the boys a better life.  And she intends to die trying.  I hope they find out. It'll HURT -- because it's a rejection of who they are now for who they used to be (now that Mary has the gist on how Heaven works).  But I still want them to know and point that out to her.  

God just reading this broke my heart SueB, and it's something I never considered!

[MysteryGuest]

I agree.  I think Mary believes she's doing what will ultimately be the best thing for everyone, even though she doesn't "like" working with the BMOL.  She's seen some positive results with all of the monsters they've taken out in the past few weeks, and it's enough to help her overlook their dark side.  Yes, they tortured Sam, but they've told us that was just one operative who'd run amok, and she's supposedly been dealt with.  Mick and Mr. Ketch have come to the boys' aid a few times, so that probably makes working with them a bit more palatable for Mary.  We know they're murdering bastards, but so far Sam, Dean and Mary haven't seen that side of them.  I'm sure they will fairly soon.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

38 minutes ago, rue721 said:

What really bothers me about Mary is that she's working with the BMOL. She *saw* a BMOL agent torturing Sam. Even if she cares nothing for Sam as her son, she knows he's a good person, and that torturing him was wrong. How can she work for an organization that does things like that? Does she have no scruples?

I've thought about this too.  And it really bothered me.  But then I remembered, from Mary's pov: Mick stopped Lady Idon'tevenwanttotypehername's torture of Sam.  And Mick admitted that LB (shorthand for Lady Bitch) had gone off the rails and would be dealt with.  And is that really so different from any other organization, or even government, that has a rogue agent?  The Rogue agent is dealt with and the entire organization isn't condemned because of that one lone crazy's behavior.  Furthermore, after that Mick helped her and Cas find Sam and Dean in Colorado - and Mary found out second hand that they'd helped Sam, Dean, and Cas with Lucifer by supplying some technology at least.  

Now, we as viewers still know they can't be trusted.  And I would side-eye Dean or Sam trusting them after what happened with Sam's torture - and not to mention all the other crap they apparently just watched go down and didn't bother to offer to lend a hand with (but Mary wasn't personally around for any of that either.) But I can sort of understand it from Mary's pov.  

That doesn't mean I agree with her.  Or let her off the hook for giving them the colt after the way this mission went down.  Or Wally.  

And...dang.  What @MysteryGuest  just wrote while I was trying to fix all my typos.  :)

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

we as viewers still know they can't be trusted.  And I would side-eye Dean or Sam trusting them after what happened with Sam's torture - and not to mention all the other crap they apparently just watched go down and didn't bother to offer to lend a hand with (but Mary wasn't personally around for any of that either.) But I can sort of understand it from Mary's pov.  

Mary saw what they did to Sam. She saw him bloody, and with a smores foot. I dunno, that seems like reason enough to not want to help them, no matter how guilty she feels.

IMO, even if she wants to end all monsters, she's really NOT giving the boys the option to help her and she's once again deciding their fate without their consent. I mean don't we all get pissed with the boys with they make unilateral decisions for each other? IMO, Mary just needs to suck it up, hunt and live with her guilt.

YMMV 

[SueB]

6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think Alistair was an underling demon; old and powerful, but not one of the first, though. It's all in the eyes...I think?

This is my order of the Hell hierarchy:

• White-eyed demon: Lucifer creates Lilith as a screw you to God
• Yellow-eyed demons: Making Lilith didn't it didn't get God's wrath enough, so he made a few more, the Princes. Probably what got God to order Michael to chuck (HEE!) Lucifer in Hell.
• Black-eyed demons: My theory is Lilith made these guys following in the footsteps of Lucifer after he was locked away in Hell. Both Cain and Abaddon had black eyes, as I recall, so I think the Knights weren't made by Lucifer himself. Didn't Cain say he chose and trained them all?
• Red-eyed demons: The little salesmen who keep Hell up and running by procuring souls.

Excellent list!  I think this is spot-on except I'd put the Red-eyed demons ABOVE Black-eyed demons.  Although we've seen a few of the black-eyed demons with the super-duper jet pack (Ruby, Meg, and Meg's 'brother'), that comes standard-issue for cross-roads demons.  PLUS cross-roads demons are, by their job duties, OUTSIDE of hell.  And that's is apparently something EVERY demon wants.  So:

[RulerofallIsurvey]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, even if she wants to end all monsters, she's really NOT giving the boys the option to help her and she's once again deciding their fate without their consent. I mean don't we all get pissed with the boys with they make unilateral decisions for each other? IMO, Mary just needs to suck it up, hunt and live with her guilt.

I understand what you're saying.  And I wasn't try to say that Mary was right.  In fact, I think she's wrong, especially for the lying bit.  I was just trying to look at it from her pov, and maybe give her the benefit of the doubt in her motivations/actions.  

Good intentions aside, the consequences of her actions/motivations are still going to suck - and probably be the worst for Sam and Dean.  [And Wally, of course.  I won't forget you, Wally!]

[SueB]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I honestly didn't see this at all.  I thought Dean's reaction was perfect for Dean.  I'm not sure what you would have wanted him to do?  He looked devastated to me, but to each his own.

I'm with you.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I thought Sam's reaction to Cas' dying speech was very poignant.  Sam and Cas do not have the 'profound' bond that Dean and Cas have.  And when Cas was first introduced, he was very critical of Sam.  I remember Cas calling Sam an 'abomination'.  That couldn't have felt good for Sam.  Even most recently, (S10? S11?) when Sam hugged Cas, he had to 'teach' Cas how to hug him back.  So when Cas said he loved all of them, and looked at Sam (and I backed it up, and it sure looked like Cas' eyes went up and to the right of where Dean would have been standing) it looked to me like Sam got a little misty eyed.   Like he finally felt "accepted".  

[MysteryGuest]

26 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

MO, even if she wants to end all monsters, she's really NOT giving the boys the option to help her and she's once again deciding their fate without their consent. I mean don't we all get pissed with the boys with they make unilateral decisions for each other? IMO, Mary just needs to suck it up, hunt and live with her guilt.

I may understand what Mary's doing, but I don't condone the fact that she's lying and sneaking around behind the boys' backs.  That's not going to end well.  It never has.  And I honestly got so tired of Sam and Dean doing it to each other that the past few seasons have been a breath of fresh air in that regard.  So believe me, I'm not happy that they have Mary doing the exact same thing.

 

6 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 So when Cas said he loved all of them, and looked at Sam (and I backed it up, and it sure looked like Cas' eyes went up and to the right of where Dean would have been standing) it looked to me like Sam got a little misty eyed.   Like he finally felt "accepted".  

Cas definitely took the time to look at each Winchester individually, including Mary, when giving his goodbye speech.  

[rue721]

38 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 But then I remembered, from Mary's pov: Mick stopped Lady Idon'tevenwanttotypehername's torture of Sam.  And Mick admitted that LB (shorthand for Lady Bitch) had gone off the rails and would be dealt with.  And is that really so different from any other organization, or even government, that has a rogue agent?  The Rogue agent is dealt with and the entire organization isn't condemned because of that one lone crazy's behavior.

I hear you, but I also think that OF COURSE Mick would claim that Toni went rogue. It's not credible, because he has so many reasons to claim that regardless of whether or not it's actually true.

Pretty much the only thing that they all actually know about the BMOL is that it's on a recruitment drive. So IMO Mary needs to look at the BMOL's actions through that lens. In which case, at best, Mick was going to distance himself from Toni because he knows that the Winchesters are going to be predisposed against her. At worst (and IMO, most realistically), Mick and Toni were playing "good cop/bad cop." Toni came in and tortured as the Bad Cop, and then Mick came in and rescued as the Good Cop.

I'm not saying that Mary needs to analyze every move that the BMOL makes. But you'd think that she'd be at least a LITTLE cynical considering that she literally saw one of the BMOL torturing Sam. At least cynical enough to take the "but she was rogue! we totally don't torture! we're just ruthlessly efficient killing machines who don't torture!" claims with a grain of salt, and refrain from signing up to do the BMOL's bidding (especially since she's doing it at the expense of her friends and family).

And I guess I would understand Mary's desperation to believe the BMOL's ~security theater~ better if she really had no other options. But she has the option to work with Sam and Dean. She was brought back because they became BFF with GOD'S SISTER ffs. You'd think that based on that part of their resume alone, she'd be willing to put a bit more trust in them than this. And there's not really a big crisis going on in any case. They don't even know if fetal naphilim is or ever will be a threat at all, and that's the biggest "threat" going currently (aside from the BMOL itself). So where is her desperation and credulity coming from?

I actually don't buy that she wants to make the world a better place for her sons. Where was that sentiment when she was actually having and raising her sons? She was trying (albeit failing) to quit hunting forever at that point. Besides, Sam and Dean's job already is to make the world a better place, and Dean has told her flat out that he finds meaning in the work. So why does she have to do that SEPARATELY from them?

I think she's hunting because that's all she knows to do, and she's utterly lost. She's glommed onto the BMOL because they offer her structure, direction, and a (false) sense of security. They -- and their Secrets & Lies -- also help distance her from Sam and Dean, which helps distance her from the complicated emotions she feels about them (and about her family/life).

Edited February 18, 2017 by rue721

[Goldmoon]

I wonder why the BMOL capitulated to Mary.  That guy could have followed her outside and taken the Colt from her, possibly killing her.  He considered his options and an apology sounded so rehearsed, I didn't believe it.  It satisfied Mary, though - did she see through it?  My question is, since Lady Milady's people seem to despise the Winchesters, what are they after?  Really, I mean?  They didn't even seem to appreciate the boys driving around America with an angel but they are making nice with Mary.  Why?

[SueB]

And I argree with both @catrox14 and @RulerofallIsurvey that Mary's intentions do not excuse her actions.  There's a difference IMO between explain and excuse. Mary is still being pig-headed and controlling.

I also meant to mention: I think Mary got the 'lead' on the attack at the demon house because the last time she found a hunt, Sam and Dean took over.  And Dean realized it was a mistake.  OTOH, as soon as they got to the barn, Mary gave up control. "What's the play?"  In fact, I think in the barn it was back to primarily Dean calling the shots.  Look at the weaponry:

- Sam, make the oil fire and light it.  Draws attention to him but keeps him at a physical distance from Ramiel at first attack

- Mary, had an angel blade. Closer in attack but only came in as backup.

- Dean, had the angel brass knuckles. He was the one who would have crossed the line and done the beating if Ramiel hadn't dispersed the holy oil ring.  I think Alastair's apprentice (i.e. Dean) was planning to interrogate Ramiel, not kill him, until they got Cas healed.

Once the ring was extinguished it was 'melee' time.  Ramiel starts toying with them by beating them with the non-lance part. Dean grabs a shovel (ala Buffy and the nearest local weapon) and then his fists. Mary uses the Angel blade. Sam uses his elbow and grabs the villian's weapon.  Good thinking Sammy. But there was no pre-plan for that bit.  The total amount of pre-planning was trap and interrogate.  After that it was 'fight'.

34 minutes ago, Goldmoon said:

I wonder why the BMOL capitulated to Mary.  That guy could have followed her outside and taken the Colt from her, possibly killing her.  He considered his options and an apology sounded so rehearsed, I didn't believe it.  It satisfied Mary, though - did she see through it?  My question is, since Lady Milady's people seem to despise the Winchesters, what are they after?  Really, I mean?  They didn't even seem to appreciate the boys driving around America with an angel but they are making nice with Mary.  Why?

I think they didn't fully appreciate the 'level' that the Winchesters play at.  They knew about the Apocalypse and the Sun not dying... but their data seems hit and miss.  They were taken aback by the whole semi-blase 'when we put Lucifer back in the cage a couple of months ago' and acknowledged having helped the Winchesters was useful for their campaign.  

Edited February 18, 2017 by SueB