Chicago Justice - General Discussion

[watcher1006]

11 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

They woman who ran over the alderman didn't even get sentenced until after the first trial? Unrealistic. And ten she only gets 1 year PROBATION for a hit and run? What's less than a slap on the wrist? She deserved some prison time, she did commit a hit and run. 

It seemed improbable to me too.  And I didn't quite get it - was the deal to get just probation contingent on getting a conviction in the "virtual kidnapping" case? It seemed that way but I can't imagine a deal being made that way.

This was really a case that should have gone to the P.D. and not the S.A. investigators from the get-go, with the hit-and-run vehicular homicide of the council member.

[Raja]

1 hour ago, watcher1006 said:

It seemed improbable to me too.  And I didn't quite get it - was the deal to get just probation contingent on getting a conviction in the "virtual kidnapping" case? It seemed that way but I can't imagine a deal being made that way.

This was really a case that should have gone to the P.D. and not the S.A. investigators from the get-go, with the hit-and-run vehicular homicide of the council member.

And the investigators didn't even know about his VIP status when they began 

[Xeliou66]

I agree, they spent too much time on the environmentalist assassination angle, and the whole episode was just a wasted opportunity. None of it made any sense at the end. 

I'm unsure if this show will get renewed or not, but such a shitty, poorly written episode 2 episodes before the finale doesn't help. The show has yet to find its rhythm, it's had good and bad episodes. One thing is for sure though, this franchise just doesn't live up to the greatness of the L&O franchise and Dick Wolf put a out a much lousier product with his Chicago shows than with the L&O shows. The Chicago shows go more for cheap drama, soapy relationships and less interesting, more unoriginal characters while L&O wasn't like that at all. 

[colorfulcoils]

14 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Just how did Stone expect the guy to confess, and why would he? That made no sense, he had no reason to confess at all, and there was no way Stone could've predicted he would do that. 

In the past a few other defendants said stupid things at the very end of the episode for them to be seen from not guilty to guilty. So based off of that (despite it not being realistic at all), Stone shouldn't have been surprised.

The two episodes previous to this one were very good. This one was not. Oh well.

[bioprof]

3 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

. The Chicago shows go more for cheap drama, soapy relationships and less interesting, more unoriginal characters while L&O wasn't like that at all. 

Amen , amen to this....so true ( and sad ) .  I was looking forward to this and Chicago Med...both epic fails in my mind.

[CaptainTightpants]

My favourite line of the entire series so far was Mark Jefferies to Valdez

"First, I went to law school too. "

Seriously! She wanders around acting like she is the only one who has a law degree, or a moral centre. 

Secondly, I'm glad that Stone and Valdez found a new place to eat dinner. This one looks way more fun! 

Thirdly, the public defender was a hoot! I'd love it if they bounced Valdez out of the cast and added her instead. She has way more personality and presence on-screen!

I too found this episode to be lacking plot-wise. The wife was unsympathetic from my point of view. Her reasoning for not even slowing down after she hit the Alderman was "someone else would call 911. " I thought she should have done time just for that. 

The husband was unsympathetic as well. It was a shitty thing to do, to do a fake the kidnapping. But of the two of them, I found him more relatable. Possibly it was because he was a way better actor. The woman who played the red headed wife was pretty terrible. 

[Xeliou66]

A major problem with this show, when they don't have a case the defendants just blurt out a confession. This show is having a hard time finding its footing, and like I predicted early on, it's hard to put an L&O type show in the Chicago franchise, as the Chicago shows are much more of a cheaper "mass market" type of series with unoriginal stock characters and soapy personal stories and a lack of realism while the L&O shows were unique and original and had very little personal crap. Also it is hard to have a show about justice while on PD Voight breaks the law every week and is treated as a hero instead of the thug that he is.

Valdez is very annoying, she acts superior to everyone and is always smirking, and she acts like an arrogant, entitled rich girl who's now some sort of hipster advocate who thinks she is morally superior to everyone and anyone who disagrees with her is scum. She's an awful character. 

I really like Stone and Jefferies, they are both very compelling main characters. Valdez on the other hand is terrible, and Nagel is really getting on my nerves with her whiny attitude and custody battle that I care nothing about. Dawson is just kind of there, I think he had more of a point on PD where he was about the only by the book-straight shooter cop in the squad, on Justice he is fine but he just doesn't seem to do much, I wish yeh had better female characters. But the main problem is the writing which is some cases is just downright awful and seems like it was written by someone who has no idea of how things work. 

[Waterston Fan]

I wonder if Wolf was just trying to recreate Law & Order again but instead of NY, in Chicago. I do like the show but it could have been better with better actors except for Weathers, Seda and Winchester. 

[Xeliou66]

Yeah he was trying to recreate L&O, NBC made a big mistake canceling it, especially after season 20 when it was the best it had been in several years. The original L&O is still the best Dick Wolf show and is still great to watch, even episodes that are from the 90's, and Dick Wolf desperately wants to re create it, not realizing that an L&O type show doesn't fit in the Chicago franchise, because on L&O the characters actually respected the law while on PD Voight and most of his crew have no problem committing felonies in every episode, and the viewers are supposed to see Voight as some kind of hero. So having an L&O type show closely co exist with PD is really hard to do. 

[TVForever]

18 hours ago, bioprof said:

The writing is sooooo bad....and  will that smirk ever disappear from Valdez's face?  Seems like the researchers for this show are cut from the same cloth as the ones that advise on the medical issues on Chicago Med.  Really disappointing....

Every time I see that self-satisfied smirk I want to smack her!

[Elliebab]

12 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

A major problem with this show, when they don't have a case the defendants just blurt out a confession. This show is having a hard time finding its footing, and like I predicted early on, it's hard to put an L&O type show in the Chicago franchise, as the Chicago shows are much more of a cheaper "mass market" type of series with unoriginal stock characters and soapy personal stories and a lack of realism while the L&O shows were unique and original and had very little personal crap. Also it is hard to have a show about justice while on PD Voight breaks the law every week and is treated as a hero instead of the thug that he is.

Valdez is very annoying, she acts superior to everyone and is always smirking, and she acts like an arrogant, entitled rich girl who's now some sort of hipster advocate who thinks she is morally superior to everyone and anyone who disagrees with her is scum. She's an awful character. 

I really like Stone and Jefferies, they are both very compelling main characters. Valdez on the other hand is terrible, and Nagel is really getting on my nerves with her whiny attitude and custody battle that I care nothing about. Dawson is just kind of there, I think he had more of a point on PD where he was about the only by the book-straight shooter cop in the squad, on Justice he is fine but he just doesn't seem to do much, I wish yeh had better female characters. But the main problem is the writing which is some cases is just downright awful and seems like it was written by someone who has no idea of how things work. 

How much can antonio do exactly? He's not a cop, he's an investigator. He's not going to be doing all the cop stuff he did on PD. Wasn't that the problem with Nagel and dawson? They were doing chicago pd's job? 

[watcher1006]

4 hours ago, Elliebab said:

How much can antonio do exactly? He's not a cop, he's an investigator. He's not going to be doing all the cop stuff he did on PD. Wasn't that the problem with Nagel and dawson? They were doing chicago pd's job? 

 

14 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah he was trying to recreate L&O, NBC made a big mistake canceling it, especially after season 20 when it was the best it had been in several years. The original L&O is still the best Dick Wolf show and is still great to watch, even episodes that are from the 90's, and Dick Wolf desperately wants to re create it, not realizing that an L&O type show doesn't fit in the Chicago franchise, because on L&O the characters actually respected the law while on PD Voight and most of his crew have no problem committing felonies in every episode, and the viewers are supposed to see Voight as some kind of hero. So having an L&O type show closely co exist with PD is really hard to do. 

It's been mentioned several times that the Law & Order format doesn't work well in Dick Wolf's universe of Chicago shows. Nagel and Dawson doing Chicago P.D.'s job? Well maybe if one imagines that the State's Attorney's office fears it won't be able to successfully prosecute a case given to it by Chicago P.D. because of "irregularities" then perhaps they would have their own investigators doing the job of police detectives. But that seems absurd.

[Raja]

41 minutes ago, watcher1006 said:

 

It's been mentioned several times that the Law & Order format doesn't work well in Dick Wolf's universe of Chicago shows. Nagel and Dawson doing Chicago P.D.'s job? Well maybe if one imagines that the State's Attorney's office fears it won't be able to successfully prosecute a case given to it by Chicago P.D. because of "irregularities" then perhaps they would have their own investigators doing the job of police detectives. But that seems absurd.

A couple of episodes took just that prejudice. In its way it was like Criminal Intent and SVU justifying why their squad had a case and not the 27th homicide detectives 

[sockii]

20 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

A major problem with this show, when they don't have a case the defendants just blurt out a confession.

Yeah, this is annoying the crap out of me as well. If you want to use that device maybe once per season, fine. But set it up well and really make it make sense. Otherwise it feels like a very cheap deus ex machina plot device.

 

20 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Dawson is just kind of there, I think he had more of a point on PD where he was about the only by the book-straight shooter cop in the squad, on Justice he is fine but he just doesn't seem to do much, I wish yeh had better female characters. But the main problem is the writing which is some cases is just downright awful and seems like it was written by someone who has no idea of how things work. 

Yeah, I like Antonio and where I've found him best on this show was when they used him to be in conflict with PD Intelligence and having to try to reign things in to stick to the law. Then again, I am a die hard Homicide: LOTS fan, so every time I see Jon Seda on screen I still basically see him as Paul Falsone...it doesn't help that Dawson has been written so close to Falsone overall.

[Xeliou66]

Oh yeah, Dawson and Falsone have a lot of similarities, similar personalities and style. I like Dawson but I think he is having trouble finding his footing on Justice, I believe the character was created with the purpose of being a foil to Voight as a by the book detective who doesn't like to break rules and will reign Voight and everyone else in when they go too far. Now that he is on Justice and working for people that do things honestly and by the book in Stone and Jefferies, there isn't much for him to do. They've given Nagel more stuff I feel like, both more investigating and a lot of personal crap, probably because the viewers don't know Nagel but Dawson has been around for several years. I think that Dawson was a better fit on PD, where a character like him is needed to keep Voight in check. 

[Ailianna]

10 hours ago, Elliebab said:

He's not a cop, he's an investigator.

I have no idea why this keeps coming up, but he is still a cop.  Investigator is the same as detective for law enforcement, and he is still a cop.  He's just with a different agency now.  That's why he still has a badge.

[Xeliou66]

One other point, I was very critical of this episodes writing and deservedly so, but one thing I did like about it was the ending with the 3 prosecutors discussing the case as they get in the elevator to leave the office. That was always my favorite ending to L&O episodes and I liked how they picked that up here, a great continuation of the iconic endings to L&O. 

[Elliebab]

16 hours ago, Ailianna said:

I have no idea why this keeps coming up, but he is still a cop.  Investigator is the same as detective for law enforcement, and he is still a cop.  He's just with a different agency now.  That's why he still has a badge.

Well he is being criticized for going to crime scenes, talking to suspects and arresting suspects cause that's Voight and his team's job.

[paigow]

Antonio will get wounded and be replaced by...His Sister!!!!

[Raja]

58 minutes ago, Elliebab said:

Well he is being criticized for going to crime scenes, talking to suspects and arresting suspects cause that's Voight and his team's job.

It plays as if the governor said we can't trust Chicago PD and I will send my investigators in to take over any case. But only in a couple of cases did they say anything near that. They are just there on most cases as if Chicago PD only consist of patrol cops, and the Intelligence Squad to hand down extrajudicial vigilante punishment

[TVForever]

5 hours ago, paigow said:

Antonio will get wounded and be replaced by...His Sister!!!!

Don't even say that as a joke. I can't believe I used to like her character, now I just face palm most of her scenes, she's become so insufferable. I'll take Antonio any day.

[watcher1006]

On 5/3/2017 at 7:36 PM, TVForever said:

Don't even say that as a joke. I can't believe I used to like her character, now I just face palm most of her scenes, she's become so insufferable. I'll take Antonio any day.

I don't know why Chicago P.D. did what they did to Jon Seda's character. He was a good fit on that show in Season 1. Thereafter they pushed him more and more to the side as they emphasized the other Intelligence Unit's characters more. It didn't have to be that way - Sophia Bush has stayed front and center from the beginning. Anyway I'm glad he has a better role on this show although it still seems funny when the S.A.'s office investigators do police detectives' work.

[paigow]

5 hours ago, watcher1006 said:

I don't know why Chicago P.D. did what they did to Jon Seda's character.

The cast was too ethnically diverse????

[mollyboylan]

does anyone know who played Eric cates in this episode? I have looked everywhere to try and figure out who he is because I know I recognize him, but he's not listed anywhere. It's driving me nuts!

[CoyoteBlue]

GOD, I hate this defense lawyer. Did he learn that "Chicago accent" by studying SNL skits?

[paigow]

Stone!Fail...this looks like a part 1....did Banks & Voight ever work together????

[paigow]

This is one of the stupidest juries ever....

[Raja]

13 minutes ago, paigow said:

This is one of the stupidest juries ever....

I was wondering exactly what did the show give us to justify the not guilty. Seeing its Wolf's Chicago I am sure the Sergeant has a new CPD squad that he is leading. He might even crossover into the rest of the franchise

[watcher1006]

17 minutes ago, Raja said:

I was wondering exactly what did the show give us to justify the not guilty.

The partner who made the plea deal to testify against his partner and got the life sentence sure must have felt stupid.

Wouldn't the police department of a major city have an internal affairs investigation department or some such to look into these cases?

[Xantar]

I guess the idea is that the jury didn't care about drug dealers and other assorted low-lifes getting killed, but I still didn't buy it. I could see maybe one holdout juror refusing to convict and therefore resulting in a hung jury. But for all 12 of them to unanimously decide that the cop is not guilty even when co-conspirators doing long jail sentences have pointed the finger at him and there's audio evidence? They didn't lay nearly enough groundwork for us to believe that could really happen. Juries do some crazy things. I would know: I was a court clerk at one time. But this was way too far.

[spammie]

I think Ted finally succeeds in giving his ex a big lesson as he goes to prison for 20 years. His ex and daughter were having extravagant lives only with alimony and child support. As their source of income goes to prison, she now faces the real harsh reality where she has to make money on her own.

Edited May 9, 2017 by spammie

[Impish Dragon]

I agree there wasn't enough justification as to why the jury acquitted.  I'm fine with Stone and company losing cases but this one didn't work.

[majormama]

The guy basically confessed on the stand. He was like yes, I did it, but they were just low lifes and also it was my partner's idea. Even if the jury thinks it's okay to kill low lifes, how can he not be guilty? 

13 hours ago, mollyboylan said:

does anyone know who played Eric cates in this episode? I have looked everywhere to try and figure out who he is because I know I recognize him, but he's not listed anywhere. It's driving me nuts!

Eric Cates is the former CI victim, right? He was played by Thomas Guiry, who I best know as Smalls from the Sandlot.

[Waterston Fan]

This episode was okay. In real life, I'm sure IAB would be investigating but the results of it would not be announced. This was not a good episode to lose to. Dawson saves the day in a way but I think Nagal was too close and I kept thinking she would get shot for some reason. 

[fireice13]

I just can't believe in the current climate, especially in Chicago, a diverse jury would vote not guilty on all counts. It's absolutely unbelievable. He shouldn't be relieved either, because he's got a target on his back from at least one gang. I was just disgusted with the way the cops spoke about those people and how they were doing their job, while enjoying the due process their victims never got. This episode made me really angry because they didn't give us any reason why the jury would acquit and made the defendants horrible, horrible human beings.

[colorfulcoils]

You've got to love the dumb fat guy lawyer.

[spammie]

Why is this episode titled 'Fool Me Twice'? Who has been fooled twice? What did I miss?

[Raja]

On Monday, May 08, 2017 at 6:08 PM, fireice13 said:

I just can't believe in the current climate, especially in Chicago, a diverse jury would vote not guilty on all counts. It's absolutely unbelievable. He shouldn't be relieved either, because he's got a target on his back from at least one gang. I was just disgusted with the way the cops spoke about those people and how they were doing their job, while enjoying the due process their victims never got. This episode made me really angry because they didn't give us any reason why the jury would acquit and made the defendants horrible, horrible human beings.

This is Chicago they have their own police unit delivering extra judicial punishment 

[Elliebab]

Good news. Chicago Justice has yet to be renewed while the other three got renewed. Is everybody happy? no more antonio, stone, valdez and jeffries.

[themadman]

It was hilarious listening to Stone talk about the constitution giving rights to people and all that when on Chicago PD, Voight and crew make a habit of ignoring those rights. 

[Chas411]

According to Phillip Winchesters Twitter, the show isn't on the mid season schedule but it hasn't been cancelled yet.

Wolf is currently in talks with NBC.

[Raja]

3 minutes ago, Chas411 said:

According to Phillip Winchesters Twitter, the show isn't on the mid season schedule but it hasn't been cancelled yet.

Wolf is currently in talks with NBC.

I think it is obvious Wolf still has some classic Law & Order in his soul. He should just take Stone and move him back to New York, to bad he did that with Rubirosa with the Law & Order Los Angeles spinoff. It wouldn't be the first series that had a reprise. It is a shame that there would be no room for Carl Weathers in that scenario

[Waterston Fan]

I kinda think Wolf needs to drop the Law & Order stuff though. It's cool but CJ needs to stand on its own and get new writers and actress for the ADA. 

[greyhorse]

On 5/8/2017 at 6:03 AM, watcher1006 said:

The partner who made the plea deal to testify against his partner and got the life sentence sure must have felt stupid.

Totally.  So we're to assume that Steven Kim is going to jail for life, while his partner gets off free and clear?  And what kind of plea deal is "life"?  WTF?  If my option to plea was to get life in jail, then why not go to trial?  What's the worst outcome?  Death penalty?  Illinois doesn't have the death penalty.  He said something to Stone like "I'll do whatever time you want, just so you take care of my family."  What does that mean?  Police protection?  They still collect his police pension?  It just made no sense.  A plea deal of 20 years would have been more believable.

And I agree with the comments that the verdict was completely unjustified.  Some more explanation seems to have been required.  But I guess in this climate, where seemingly guilty cops are being found not guilty, it's not surprising at all.

[MakeMeLaugh]

I really don't care about this show any more so won't care if it's not renewed. Its actors can easily find other jobs. It's all murder cases all the time, gimmicky and twee with its throwbacks to L&O, and not to beat a dead horse yet again but the investigators are just in a different office than Dawson had in PD, with the same duties--PD can just slide Dawson right back in, in fact.

Burn it down and start over if it skates through. I'll pretend Baby Stone went back to the MLB as a coach.

[Elliebab]

2 hours ago, MakeMeLaugh said:

I really don't care about this show any more so won't care if it's not renewed. Its actors can easily find other jobs. It's all murder cases all the time, gimmicky and twee with its throwbacks to L&O, and not to beat a dead horse yet again but the investigators are just in a different office than Dawson had in PD, with the same duties--PD can just slide Dawson right back in, in fact.

Burn it down and start over if it skates through. I'll pretend Baby Stone went back to the MLB as a coach.

You think it's that's easy for actors to find other jobs? Oh and Antonio back to PD? PD is all about Erin. Antonio will be forced back into the background doing absolutely nothing. No thank you. 

[MakeMeLaugh]

If they can't find other acting jobs at their elite level and with their contacts/network, they'll just have to do something else, I guess. Jon Seda is just finishing a movie--I imagine the others have their own irons in the fire. 

Edited May 12, 2017 by MakeMeLaugh

[Chas411]

NBC reversed the decision to cancel Timeless. I don't know why but I feel like if they were going to give Justice another shot we'd know by now. I've got to admit I'm surprised at this as I'd have thought they'd at the very least maybe give it another ten episodes or something and find somewhere to slot it in next season but it's looking less and less likely.

[Xeliou66]

What an absolutely stupid episode. Seriously, the cop had no defense but he gets off after being a serial killer?! Ridiculous. This guy thought that having a badge made him judge, jury and executioner and that he had the right to determine who lived or who died because he wore a badge, and even if the 3 victims weren't sympathetic, he still murdered them in cold blood because he thought he had the right to decide who lived and who died ( Stone didn't even mention any of this in his closing argument, I mean think of how scary the world would be if people had the right to kill whoever they wanted to because they had a badge, that would be a dystopian fascist society ). What a stupid, stupid episode. The guy had no defense at all but the jury still acquitted, unbelievable. Yeah I know cops get away with a lot of crap in real life, but in almost every case when a cop gets off for a murder charge it's because he claims he was afraid for his life and the jury buys it. In this case the guy admitted he killed in cold blood because he thought he could decide who lived and who died. 

And can you imagine the riots that would occur in real life if this happened? Remember Baltimore and Ferguson, well imagine a cop admitting to killing 3 black drug dealers in cold blood and getting off, this would be a nightmare for Chicago and none of that was ever even addressed. 

On a similar note, was Mark Jefferies even in the episode??! This would be a huge politically charged case and I can't even remember him appearing. He has been very interesting when they've given him some scenes, but overall I feel they've wasted Carl Weathers. 

On a positive note, Valdez didn't have any stupid lines and didn't smirk as much.

These last 2 episodes have been terrible written and I really don't care if it gets renewed or not. The shows writing has been terribly inconsistent, there are lots of illogical thangs in most episodes, and there have been more mediocre-awful episodes than good ones. And while I like Stone and Jefferies a lot, Valdez is horrible and needs to be replace.

As for Dawson and Nagel, well I can't really put my finger on it but I just can't get interested in them as much. For one thing, I think their personalities are way too similar, both of them talk and think very similarly and seem to have the same personality. I think Dawson was better on PD when he could be the by the book cop that could keep Voight from going too far over the line, it provided a more interesting balance on PD. I wish they had kept Antonio on PD and written it where Olinsky came over as lead investigator on Justice, he would provide a more interesting contrast to the by the book SA's office as he has broken and bent rules but mainly under Voight's guidance, and he is PD's most interesting character and gets nothing. Dawson and Nagel are just too similar and too low key, and I find it hard to get involved in the first half of a lot of the episodes.

I am not giving up on the show and I will watch if it's renewed, but I won't be unhappy if they cancel it, it surely isn't up to the quality of the L&O shows which is what it was promoted to be. 

[paigow]

Kudos for finding a Donald Trump Jr. look-alike....Another "Code Red" trap ending...