Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)

[Wynterwolf]

I think as a fighter pilot, Poe's instincts and training are for quick thinking in the moment, and being able to adapt and use what flies into his path.  But as the leader Leia (and Holdo) believed he could grow into, he needed to learn to strategize more broadly, and to think about and anticipate what other people (opponents and teammates) would do.  And I agree there were multiple choices that were maybe not the best choices in hindsight, but creating teams that work well together are often about what's rebuilt after surviving costly mistakes.  

[stealinghome]

7 hours ago, Miles said:

She didn't tell anybody on the crew and clearly there were a lot of people having problems with that, since Poe could organise a mutiny. That unwarrented secrecy can't be fanwanked away.

I mean, Poe’s mutiny had like 2 people, himself included, and was a colossal failure because no one else supported them, so I wouldn’t exactly say that it involved “a lot of people” who bought in. Everyone else on the ship aside from Poe and the female officer played by Billie Lourd managed to NOT mutiny because they trusted their superior officer. Like people in military organizations are supposed to do.

The situation would’ve been different had Poe not just fucked the fleet in the first place by getting half of their fighters destroyed by disobeying orders when he decided his plan was better than Leia’s. I can totally understand why Holdo felt she couldn’t take that kind of chance. tbh I think Poe may well have gone rogue either way—I can totally see him saying “we’re going to run until our engines fail and hope they don’t see us fleeing?! No way! *I* will come up with a better plan that will save us all!”

[Miles]

30 minutes ago, stealinghome said:

I mean, Poe’s mutiny had like 2 people, himself included, and was a colossal failure because no one else supported them, so I wouldn’t exactly say that it involved “a lot of people” who bought in. Everyone else on the ship aside from Poe and the female officer played by Billie Lourd managed to NOT mutiny because they trusted their superior officer. Like people in military organizations are supposed to do.

They were being held in the hangar bay, with literally the whole resistance packing into transports behind them and yet nobody tried to rescue them. Seems like everybody was on board with the mutiny until Leia woke up.

Also we were specifically shown bridge crew being part of the mutiny, so the admiral didn't even tell them what she was doing, for no discernable reason.

Other than that, what Perfect Xero said.

 

30 minutes ago, stealinghome said:

The situation would’ve been different had Poe not just fucked the fleet in the first place by getting half of their fighters destroyed by disobeying orders when he decided his plan was better than Leia’s. I can totally understand why Holdo felt she couldn’t take that kind of chance. tbh I think Poe may well have gone rogue either way—I can totally see him saying “we’re going to run until our engines fail and hope they don’t see us fleeing?! No way! *I* will come up with a better plan that will save us all!”

He mostly got the bombers destroyed. But that doesn't matter. They wouldn't have had a chance against all those star destroyers and Snoke's flagship anyway. Leia was angry at the pointless loss of life, for a victory that didn't mean much in the grand scheme of things, not because they lost any kind of actual fighting capabilities.

Even if Poe had fucked the fleet, how does that make the admirals unecessary secrecy any better?

Edited February 7, 2018 by Miles

[stealinghome]

Quote

They were being held in the hangar bay, with literally the whole resistance packing into transports behind them and yet nobody tried to rescue them. Seems like everybody was on board with the mutiny until Leia woke up.

Except the rest of the Resistance didn't come streaming off the transports screaming "OUR SAVIORS!" Instead, they kept packing onto the transport ships. Which doesn't support the theory that they were on-board with the mutiny. If they were that concerned about the plan, I would think they would simply have stopped getting onto the transports, returned to their stations on the ship, and tried to come up behind Holdo and take her into custody. Instead, they kept following her plan (which was really all she needed...she was going down with the ship anyway, all she needed was for people to keep getting on the transports. Which happened).

[benteen]

Given how out of control Poe was, it wasn't the time to teach him a lesson about following order.  Leia and/or Holdo should have told him the plan.  That doesn't change the fact that Poe got most of the Resistance killed.  He shouldn't be their next leader but he's pretty much going to be by default because he helped get most of the organization killed.

[Joe]

On further reflection, I don't like Poe. His leaking the intel to DJ got the Resistance penned up and under attack. Which caused Luke to manifest as a distraction. Which lead to Luke's death. Poe isn't the only one at fault, but he is partially responsible for the deaths of most of the resistance and Luke Skywalker. At some point, it would be nice for him to acknowledge that, somehow try to make amends. I can't see that happening, of course. Star Wars isn't one of those kind of series.

[VCRTracking]

On 2/7/2018 at 4:00 PM, Joe said:

On further reflection, I don't like Poe. His leaking the intel to DJ got the Resistance penned up and under attack. Which caused Luke to manifest as a distraction. Which lead to Luke's death. Poe isn't the only one at fault, but he is partially responsible for the deaths of most of the resistance and Luke Skywalker. At some point, it would be nice for him to acknowledge that, somehow try to make amends. I can't see that happening, of course. Star Wars isn't one of those kind of series.

I think Abrams would do something with it. It's been too much of a talking point for him not to address it in Episode IX. It makes Poe a more interesting character now to have him feel guilty over the consequences of his actions. Looking back, many characters in previous Star Wars movies have come up with crazy plans that ended up working out mostly due to good luck. His was the one where it unfortunately fell victim to bad luck.

I've said before though that Holdo's sacrifice did allow Rey to escape the ship.

[Danny Franks]

I would expect Poe's journey in Episode IX to be centred around a crisis of confidence, and experiencing doubts he's probably never felt before, all while more and more responsibility and pressure is put on him to lead. It would make for an interesting journey, and fit in well with the journeys that Rey and Finn will also need to go on, as they become leaders as well as figureheads.

The responsibility of commanding troops isn't something Star Wars has really dealt with before. When Luke was on the trench run, comrades where shot down, left and right, and the only one he even paused to think about was Biggs. Han's team lost people on Endor, while Lando saw X-Wings shot down around him in the battle above. There was never any sense of 'I'm sending these people to die'. Rogue One hit that as a collective sacrifice, but they never really had Jyn or Cassian stop to think 'these people will die because of the things I'm telling them to do'.

In The Last Jedi, Poe was explicitly told that was what had happened, and it coloured his attitude for the rest of the movie. He was obsessed with saving the Resistance, because he'd sacrificed those bomber crews at the beginning of the movie.

[VCRTracking]

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

When Luke was on the trench run, comrades where shot down, left and right, and the only one he even paused to think about was Biggs.

Yeah, and I think he was sad for about a minute when his gunner Dack got killed on Hoth before leaving him to be crushed by an AT-AT!

[VCRTracking]

[MisterGlass]

I really enjoyed that "How It Should Have Ended."  It nailed several of my concerns with the movie.

[VCRTracking]

Seeing the trailer for Incredibles 2, reminded me that when it comes to good guys unintentionally causing damage on catastrophic levels, Poe has nothing on Bob Parr, Mr. Incredible! He not only is the reason superheroes in his world were outlawed by the government, but the way he dismissed Buddy led to him being a supervillain and killing most of them!

[Eyes High]

Just saw TLJ. The writing was really, really bad, even for a Rian Johnson film.

Why did the writing and Rey's behaviour imply that Kylo's turn to mass murder and patricide would have been justified if Luke really had tried to kill him? 

Why did Finn and Rose keep talking about how beautiful the city was when all the audience was shown of it was some fairy light-strung side streets and the casino itself?

Why did Finn and Rose just happen to wind up sharing a cell with someone who just happened to have the skills that they so desperately required?

Why is there a character in the Star Wars universe named DJ of all things? (Apparently, it was supposed to be short for "Don't join," but this was never spelled out.)

Why would someone in the Star Wars universe wish someone "Godspeed"?

Why did Finn and Rose put their trust in DJ and why were they so shocked and appalled by his betrayal when he made it as clear as he possibly could that he didn't see the Resistance as the good guys--giving a little speech to this effect--and that he was only interested in money? 

Why did Finn throw a fit over DJ taking Rose's pendant when she never explained its emotional significance to him (unless I missed that)?

Why was DJ spilling the beans about the ship being used as a distraction to cover the escape of the transport pods such a big deal, given that that would be clear to anyone who saw the transport pods leaving the ship?

Why did Holdo withhold the reasoning behind her plan from Poe, thus leading to a mutiny, when Leia was willing to explain it to him and allay his concerns?

Why did Holdo wait until most of the transport pods were destroyed to ram the ship, even when she had already decided to stay behind and sacrifice herself?

Why did everyone take so long to realize that Luke was stalling for time, when it was immediately obvious that's what he was doing?

Why was Leia so chill about the clusterfuck of terrible decisions that led to the loss of 95% of the remaining Resistance, when Poe's previous insubordination led her to bust him down to Captain?

Did Leia realize that Luke was a hologram and not say anything?

...I could keep going all day, really. So much awfulness.

The writing for Finn and Rose's plot was particularly inept: excessive exposition, clunky banter, contrivance upon contrivance, leaden attempt at social commentary, Finn's storyline pointlessly rehashing his TFA arc, and too many violations of the "show, don't tell" rule to count.

Utter disaster. The real blame goes to whoever thought it would be a good idea to entrust Rian Johnson with writing duties. Dumb, dumb, dumb. 

Edited February 18, 2018 by Eyes High

[VCRTracking]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Why did the writing and Rey's behaviour imply that Kylo's turn to mass murder and patricide would have been justified if Luke really had tried to kill him? 

Because she's naive and she was proven wrong later.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Why did Finn and Rose keep talking about how beautiful the city was when all the audience was shown of it was some fairy light-strung side streets and the casino itself?

Because the interior sets of the casino are the most beautiful scene in a Star Wars movie.

 

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Why did Finn and Rose just happen to wind up sharing a cell with someone who just happened to have the skills that they so desperately required?

Because the skill they required is breaking into secure facilities and people who do that tend to get arrested.

 

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Why is there a character in the Star Wars universe named DJ of all things? (Apparently, it was supposed to be short for "Don't join," but this was never spelled out.)

Because all names in Star Wars other than Luke are weird.

 

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Why would someone in the Star Wars universe wish someone "Godspeed"?

Because Jedi isn't the only religion in the galaxy.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Why did Finn and Rose put their trust in DJ and why were they so shocked and appalled by his betrayal when he made it as clear as he possibly could that he didn't see the Resistance as the good guys--giving a little speech to this effect--and that he was only interested in money? 

They didn't trust him. They were desperate and he was the only option they had.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Why did Finn throw a fit over DJ taking Rose's pendant when she never explained its emotional significance to him (unless I missed that)?

They were on the mission together for a day, he probably asked about it and she told him.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Why was DJ spilling the beans about the ship being used as a distraction to cover the escape of the transport pods such a big deal, given that that would be clear to anyone who saw the transport pods leaving the ship?

The transports were cloaked and were hidden behind the main ship and wouldn't have been found unless the First Order was looking for them.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Why did Holdo withhold the reasoning behind her plan from Poe, thus leading to a mutiny, when Leia was willing to explain it to him and allay his concerns?

Because she's in command and she didn't have to tell him.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Why was Leia so chill about the clusterfuck of terrible decisions that led to the loss of 95% of the remaining Resistance, when Poe's previous insubordination led her to bust him down to Captain?

Because she understands Poe is passionate and still believes he can be a great leader. Also this is the same woman who was pretty chill after her whole planet were destoyed and her parents were killed.

 

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Why did everyone take so long to realize that Luke was stalling for time, when it was immediately obvious that's what he was doing?

Because it's the legendary Luke Skywalker and people thought he was taking on the First Order by himself.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Did Leia realize that Luke was a hologram and not say anything?

Yes.

And that completes my Reddit AMA for tonight, thank you everyone!

Edited February 18, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Joe]

It's a movie that requires some thought. Maybe not everything was on screen. But once it all clicks, it's really good. Maybe it wasn't such an easy watch as TFA, but I think I prefer it because of that.

[VCRTracking]

3 hours ago, Joe said:

It's a movie that requires some thought. Maybe not everything was on screen. But once it all clicks, it's really good. Maybe it wasn't such an easy watch as TFA, but I think I prefer it because of that.

Me too. The more I hear the same criticisms about the characters the more I'm able to refute them after thinking about it and the more I like the movie.

Like the complaints if Poe hadn't done anything the Resistance wouldn't have been devastated. Now I don't think that's true. I think the Resistance was always going to take heavy losses, but Poe's actions just sped it up. If everyone had successfully evacuated to Crait, their call for help around the galaxy would have still met with deafening silence and the First Order would have tracked their transmission back to the source. Instead of just a handful of survivors there would have been hundreds trapped in the base.  under siege who would have held on for a few days at best. Rey would be prisoner on Snoke's ship and Chewie would have either died or been captured trying to rescue her.  Even if Chewie decided to rescue them in the Falcon, he could have only taken what many could fit in the ship and leave hundreds behind.

[Crs97]

I don’t think the answer to the criticisms is that people aren’t thinking hard enough about it or just wanted an easy watch.  Some people are satisfied with answers like “it happened offscreen.”  Some people think important moments should be seen.  Both opinions are valid.

[Joe]

3 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I don’t think the answer to the criticisms is that people aren’t thinking hard enough about it or just wanted an easy watch.  Some people are satisfied with answers like “it happened offscreen.”  Some people think important moments should be seen.  Both opinions are valid.

That's fair enough. And I don't bust out the mental gymnastics for just any old movie. Star Wars is special. :)

[Epeolatrix]

Quote

Why is there a character in the Star Wars universe named DJ of all things? (Apparently, it was supposed to be short for "Don't join," but this was never spelled out.)

It was spelled out -- literally -- on his hat. You can see the text most clearly on his Funko Pop (it's in Aurabesh).

[Perfect Xero]

On 2/18/2018 at 8:59 AM, Joe said:

It's a movie that requires some thought. Maybe not everything was on screen. But once it all clicks, it's really good. Maybe it wasn't such an easy watch as TFA, but I think I prefer it because of that.

Thinking about this movie has only caused me to notice the deficiencies in the plot and characterization when there was no John Williams score over space explosions and laser sword fights to distract me.

[ulkis]

On 2/17/2018 at 11:22 PM, Eyes High said:

Just saw TLJ.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw7pcCj0ORk&t=3730s

This video dealt with a lot of the problems I had with "the Last Jedi". (This guy really didn't like the movie, fyi.)

Edited February 20, 2018 by ulkis

[Spartan Girl]

I have to admit that I liked the HISHE video.  The one ending with Rey, Luke, and Yoda all teaming up and blasting Bitch Boy to smithereens was legendary.

Hey, we can still hold out hope that Rey is Obi-Wan's grandchild, right?

[VCRTracking]

14 hours ago, ulkis said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw7pcCj0ORk&t=3730s

This video dealt with a lot of the problems I had with "the Last Jedi".

Six hours? Yeah, no thanks. It took only 70 minutes for Red Letter Media to pick apart Episode 1.  I can't sit through that ridiculously dry and serious tone for more than 30 seconds, especially when there's barely contained rage in narration. There's a far more enjoyable 4 part video of the Hobbit trilogy that's only about 45 minutes. There's a 49 minute takedown of Sherlock which is far more fun and witty. If the purpose was to convince people who liked The Last Jedi why they're wrong, and it's really a terrible movie try not making it four hours longer than the actual movie.  If it's purpose is catharsis for haters, to justify their anger and prove that their opinion is the right one, great. Enjoy. I'd rather do anything else.

Edited February 20, 2018 by VCRTracking

[ulkis]

You're right that it's for people who didn't like the movie. I'll edit my original post to say that.

We agree that it's too long . . . I only watched part 1 myself.

[Perfect Xero]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I have to admit that I liked the HISHE video.  The one ending with Rey, Luke, and Yoda all teaming up and blasting Bitch Boy to smithereens was legendary.

Hey, we can still hold out hope that Rey is Obi-Wan's grandchild, right?

I'm still of the opinion that in TFA she was being set up as the Force reincarnation of Anakin with all of Maz's talk about seeing the same eyes in different people, Anakin's saber calling to her, and Obi-Wan's ghost being the first one to guide her.

If Rey is the classic hero reborn then it explains why she seems so advanced and why things come so easily for her. She's drawing on the memories and skills of her past life.

And at least Johnson didn't have ghost Anakin appear to Luke in TLJ and fart for the sake of a comedic turn or something.

[VCRTracking]

20 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

And at least Johnson didn't have ghost Anakin appear to Luke in TLJ and fart for the sake of a comedic turn or something.

If that's a knock on Yoda well I have to say again I loved his appearance in TLJ. He was warm, wise, kind and funny. Imparting words of wisdom Luke needed but with a sense of humor. Very reminiscent of his depiction in the OT.

[SnoGirl]

On 2/20/2018 at 11:21 AM, Spartan Girl said:

I have to admit that I liked the HISHE video.  The one ending with Rey, Luke, and Yoda all teaming up and blasting Bitch Boy to smithereens was legendary.

Hey, we can still hold out hope that Rey is Obi-Wan's grandchild, right?

Rey Kenobi has been my pet theory since they used both actor’s voices in The Force Awakens during her scene. And once again, having a Kenobi stop a Skywalker is also something that I would just love, I like when stories circle back to their origins.

Plus, Kenobi was a fox. And human, there’s no way he was perfect 100% of the time.

Edited February 21, 2018 by SnoGirl

[Joe]

58 minutes ago, SnoGirl said:

Rey Kenobi has been my pet theory since they used both actor’s voices in The Force Awakens during her scene. And once again, having a Kenobi stop a Skywalker is also something that I would just love, I like when stories circle back to their origins.

Plus, Kenobi was a fox. And human, there’s no way he was perfect 100% of the time.

They also had Yoda's voice in there...

[Perfect Xero]

6 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

If that's a knock on Yoda well I have to say again I loved his appearance in TLJ. He was warm, wise, kind and funny. Imparting words of wisdom Luke needed but with a sense of humor. Very reminiscent of his depiction in the OT.

It's a knock on the constant undercutting of things set up in TFA as important and dramatic with wacky slapstick humor as a way of showing us that none of it mattered. It was like the Robot Chicken Version of an M. Night Shyamalan Star Wars movie.

Hux being outwitted by a prank phone call. (What a twist!)

Finn stumbling around like a clown in leaky balloon suit. (What a twist!)

Luke tossing Anakin's lightsaber over his shoulder. (What a twist!)

Rey stumbling around the Jedi island almost accidentally killing the people there while Luke milks a space cow. (What a twist!)

 

Since you brought up Yoda: The idea that Luke never learned to fail?

Learning to fail was, basically, Luke's entire character arc in Empire Strike's Back. Luke fails in that movie. He's even warned that he's going to fail and still fails. He fails hard. He fails in almost every way he could have failed. He learns to deal with that failure and comes back from it.

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, Perfect Xero said:

It's a knock on the constant undercutting of things set up in TFA as important and dramatic with wacky slapstick humor as a way of showing us that none of it mattered. It was like the Robot Chicken Version of an M. Night Shyamalan Star Wars movie.

Hux being outwitted by a prank phone call. (What a twist!)

Finn stumbling around like a clown in leaky balloon suit. (What a twist!)

Luke tossing Anakin's lightsaber over his shoulder. (What a twist!)

Rey stumbling around the Jedi island almost accidentally killing the people there while Luke milks a space cow. (What a twist!)

Hux looking like a fool for a minute didn't undercut the First Order decimating the Resistance down to about 20 people.

Finn looking silly in a Bacta suit doesn't doesn't undercut the moment where he almost sacrifices his life for the Resistance.

Luke tossing the lightsaber doesn't doesn't undercut learning he lost all faith in himself and the Jedi Order and that he just wants to stay on the island to die.

Rey's annoying the the fish nuns and Luke drinking sea cow milk doesn't undercut the moment where they have a physical fight where Rey angrily confronts him until he confesses a shameful deed.

1 hour ago, Perfect Xero said:

Since you brought up Yoda: The idea that Luke never learned to fail?

Learning to fail was, basically, Luke's entire character arc in Empire Strike's Back. Luke fails in that movie. He's even warned that he's going to fail and still fails. He fails hard. He fails in almost every way he could have failed. He learns to deal with that failure and comes back from it.

Yoda didn't say Luke never learned to fail. He said Luke didn't pass the lesson of his failure to Rey. Luke thought he couldn't teach Rey because he failed, not realizing his weaknesses were important for her to learn from even more than his strengths.

[Perfect Xero]

51 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Hux looking like a fool for a minute didn't undercut the First Order decimating the Resistance down to about 20 people.

I said it undercuts TFA not TLJ. But it actually does hurt this movie as well, as if this is the guy leading TFO military and he's beating the Resistance then the Resistance is just completely incompetent and would have been easily crushed by a competent leader on the other side.

Quote

Finn looking silly in a Bacta suit doesn't doesn't undercut the moment where he almost sacrifices his life for the Resistance.

It completely undercuts the heroic choice he made at the end of TFA. It also moves his friendship with Rey, which was presented as a good quality in TFO, and turns it into something to be laughed at.

It's also worth noting that Rey doesn't even spare a thought for Finn in this movie that I can recall, especially not when she's having Force tea bonding time with the man who almost killed him. Which is why Finn and his injuries from TFA are played as a joke here, it's to undercut Kylo Ren's evil portrayal from TFA so Rey can bond with him.

Quote

Luke tossing the lightsaber doesn't doesn't undercut learning he lost all faith in himself and the Jedi Order and that he just wants to stay on the island to die.

It completely undercuts and obliterates the emotional finish to The Force Awakens, and does so in a mocking way.

Quote

Rey's annoying the the fish nuns and Luke drinking sea cow milk doesn't undercut the moment where they have a physical fight where Rey angrily confronts him until he confesses a shameful deed.

Once again, it completely undercuts the entire story of TFA, which is that Leia is looking for Luke to help and that Snoke and Kylo fear his return. We think this and the characters think this because Luke refusing to help is completely against everything we have ever known about his character. Instead we get a selfish asshole who doesn't care about anyone or anything but himself. There's a reason that Mark Hamill referred to the character he plays in TLJ as "Jake" Skywalker.

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

Yoda didn't say Luke never learned to fail. He said Luke didn't pass the lesson of his failure to Rey. Luke thought he couldn't teach Rey because he failed, not realizing his weaknesses were important for her to learn from even more than his strengths.

I'm not sure if that's any better. It might actually be worse than what I thought.

Instead of just being bad continuity it makes Yoda a giant (little) green hypocrite as he never passed the lessons of his failure on to Luke (in fact he actively hid the truth about his failures from Luke). He's also a force ghost who has had all the time in the galaxy since then to pass the message along, but apparently chose not to guide Luke as a teacher at all.

Like I said, the more I think about this movie, the worse the plot and characters get.

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, Perfect Xero said:

It completely undercuts the heroic choice he made at the end of TFA. It also moves his friendship with Rey, which was presented as a good quality in TFO, and turns it into something to be laughed at.

It's also worth noting that Rey doesn't even spare a thought for Finn in this movie that I can recall, especially not when she's having Force tea bonding time with the man who almost killed him. Which is why Finn and his injuries from TFA are played as a joke here, it's to undercut Kylo Ren's evil portrayal from TFA so Rey can bond with him.

She tries to contact Finn in the Falcon on the island and before she ships herself to Snoke's ship she tells Chewbacca to give him a message. Finn's injuries were shown to not be serious because he was going off on his own mission. Luke was also clawed in the face and almost froze to death but getting dunked in Bacta healed him pretty quickly.

1 hour ago, Perfect Xero said:

I said it undercuts TFA not TLJ. But it actually does hurt this movie as well, as if this is the guy leading TFO military and he's beating the Resistance then the Resistance is just completely incompetent and would have been easily crushed by a competent leader on the other side.

His pomposity got the better of him but he still is capable of good strategy like the hyperspace tracking. He also has competent officers at his command.

1 hour ago, Perfect Xero said:

Quote

Luke tossing the lightsaber doesn't doesn't undercut learning he lost all faith in himself and the Jedi Order and that he just wants to stay on the island to die.

It completely undercuts and obliterates the emotional finish to The Force Awakens, and does so in a mocking way.

It doesn't undercut the ending the first time you watch it. Maybe knowing what happens next will ruin repeat viewings, but knowing why he's there in the first place is more powerful.

1 hour ago, Perfect Xero said:

Once again, it completely undercuts the entire story of TFA, which is that Leia is looking for Luke to help and that Snoke and Kylo fear his return. We think this and the characters think this because Luke refusing to help is completely against everything we have ever known about his character. Instead we get a selfish asshole who doesn't care about anyone or anything but himself. There's a reason that Mark Hamill referred to the character he plays in TLJ as "Jake" Skywalker.

He's there because he cares so much about everyone else. His students, his sister, best friend and nephew were all harmed because of his moment of weakness. He failed everyone who counted on him and he doesn't want to keep failing them. Mark Hamill came up with his backstory about how Luke was with a woman who had a child and he accidentally was killed playing with Luke's lightsaber(yikes that sounds dirty), to explain why Luke would go the way he did in TLJ. Well the reasoning of Luke feeling guilty over a child's death was already in the text. Luke felt responsible for the deaths of students, children he cared for and his own nephew falling to the Dark Side that's why he's so despondent.

1 hour ago, Perfect Xero said:

I'm not sure if that's any better. It might actually be worse than what I thought.

Instead of just being bad continuity it makes Yoda a giant (little) green hypocrite as he never passed the lessons of his failure on to Luke (in fact he actively hid the truth about his failures from Luke). He's also a force ghost who has had all the time in the galaxy since then to pass the message along, but apparently chose not to guide Luke as a teacher at all.

He didn't want to train Luke in the first place because he saw too much of his father in him. It wasn't his failure he wanted Luke to avoid but his father's(which was definitely a bigger danger). He also did say "Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor"(which Yoda did) and  "Pass on what you have learned." before he died.

Edited February 22, 2018 by VCRTracking

[benteen]

Luke milking the space cow is the silliest complaint I've heard about this movie.  Fanboys will take that one moment and scream "JAR JAR" because they have no sense of humor whatsoever.  Mind you, the scene wasn't funny (just odd) but just because you add a scene like that doesn't mean that it ruined the whole movie.  You wouldn't know it asking those people.

Poe pranking Hux was funny.  But I can see the hardcore SW fanboys not liking that because again, they are some of the most humorless people on the planet.

Agreed that Finn stumbling around doesn't undercut his nearly dying in TFA.  I didn't expect The Last Jedi to spend an hour on Finn's slow and grueling physical rehabilitation.  It's done, move on.

Edited February 22, 2018 by benteen

[Joe]

26 minutes ago, benteen said:

Luke milking the space cow is the silliest complaint I've heard about this movie.  Fanboys will take that one moment and scream "JAR JAR" because they have no sense of humor whatsoever.  Mind you, the scene wasn't funny (just odd) but just because you add a scene like that doesn't mean that it ruined the whole movie.  You wouldn't know it asking those people.

Poe pranking Hux was funny.  But I can see the hardcore SW fanboys not liking that because again, they are some of the most humorless people on the planet.

Agreed that Finn stumbling around doesn't undercut his nearly dying in TFA.  I didn't expect The Last Jedi to spend an hour on Finn's slow and grueling physical rehabilitation.  It's done, move on.

I didn't much like the milk moment. It's not my type of humour. But I see the point of it, Luke was trying to discourage Rey. But she doesn't give up so easily.

I'm a hardcore SW fan. I've read some of the Kevin J Anderson books multiple times! I read the Whole Yuuzhan Vong series, despite only one being any good. (Traitor, by Matthew Stover.) And Poe was funny. The whole movie, though. It had a slightly different style of humour than the other SW movies. Some people just want more of the same. I'm happy to have something different, if it's good. Though I realise that that's very subjective.

[benteen]

I probably went a little broad with my description.  I consider myself a hardcore SW fan as well.  I've just found that a certain segment of these hardcore fans, particularly on the internet, are some of the most humorless people

[stealinghome]

I thought the space cow stuff was fine, but what was funnier to me was Rey constantly bedeviling the space nuns. I got such a kick out of that running gag.

Quote

It's also worth noting that Rey doesn't even spare a thought for Finn in this movie that I can recall, especially not when she's having Force tea bonding time with the man who almost killed him. Which is why Finn and his injuries from TFA are played as a joke here, it's to undercut Kylo Ren's evil portrayal from TFA so Rey can bond with him.

I am sympathetic to a lot of the critiques of the film made on this board (especially about the forced "rehabilitation" of Kylo Ren and bond with Rey--she should never have given him the time of day), but I'm not sure this one is entirely fair. Multiple times Rey asks people to pass a message on to Finn in case she doesn't make it back. imo the movie went out of its way to show that Finn wasn't ever far from her thoughts.

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, stealinghome said:

I thought the space cow stuff was fine, but what was funnier to me was Rey constantly bedeviling the space nuns. I got such a kick out of that running gag.

I am sympathetic to a lot of the critiques of the film made on this board (especially about the forced "rehabilitation" of Kylo Ren and bond with Rey--she should never have given him the time of day), but I'm not sure this one is entirely fair. Multiple times Rey asks people to pass a message on to Finn in case she doesn't make it back. imo the movie went out of its way to show that Finn wasn't ever far from her thoughts.

I don't think Kylo was "rehabilitated" in TLJ. He was more conflicted and showed a gentle side in his Force Skype scenes but he still ended up choosing power over the light. He had to be somebody Leia, Han and Luke cared for deeply and felt they had let down. He couldn't just  be this raging monster not worth saving if that was the case. There had to be a "Ben" there for Leia to want back.

[Perfect Xero]

12 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

She tries to contact Finn in the Falcon on the island and before she ships herself to Snoke's ship she tells Chewbacca to give him a message. Finn's injuries were shown to not be serious because he was going off on his own mission. Luke was also clawed in the face and almost froze to death but getting dunked in Bacta healed him pretty quickly.

His pomposity got the better of him but he still is capable of good strategy like the hyperspace tracking. He also has competent officers at his command.

It doesn't undercut the ending the first time you watch it. Maybe knowing what happens next will ruin repeat viewings, but knowing why he's there in the first place is more powerful.

He's there because he cares so much about everyone else. His students, his sister, best friend and nephew were all harmed because of his moment of weakness. He failed everyone who counted on him and he doesn't want to keep failing them. Mark Hamill came up with his backstory about how Luke was with a woman who had a child and he accidentally was killed playing with Luke's lightsaber(yikes that sounds dirty), to explain why Luke would go the way he did in TLJ. Well the reasoning of Luke feeling guilty over a child's death was already in the text. Luke felt responsible for the deaths of students, children he cared for and his own nephew falling to the Dark Side that's why he's so despondent.

 

Glad she didn't completely forget about Finn while she was becoming besties with the man who almost murdered him ...

I will say that Finn is one of the few characters who gets anything resembling a positive arc in this movie, going from only caring about himself and his friend to caring about the bigger picture. It's a shame that the resolution of that arc is Rose smashing into him. Her message makes no sense, as Finn's motivation in that scene was clearly not destroying something he hates but, rather, protecting the Resistance, the ideal he's come to believe in.

Luke's "moment of character assassination" was completely awful and goes against every single thing we ever see from Luke in the OT. Everything that flows from it is similarly awful and character destroying.

Quote

He didn't want to train Luke in the first place because he saw too much of his father in him. It wasn't his failure he wanted Luke to avoid but his father's(which was definitely a bigger danger). He also did say "Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor"(which Yoda did) and  "Pass on what you have learned." before he died.

Right. Yoda never tries to teach Luke about his own failures so that Luke can learn from them. Yet Luke was apparently supposed to have learned to pass on the lessons of his own failures to his students even though his two masters constantly hid the actual truth surrounding their own failures from him. It's hypocritical as hell, but Yoda is allowed to deliver it like it's well earned wisdom.

8 hours ago, benteen said:

Luke milking the space cow is the silliest complaint I've heard about this movie.  Fanboys will take that one moment and scream "JAR JAR" because they have no sense of humor whatsoever.  Mind you, the scene wasn't funny (just odd) but just because you add a scene like that doesn't mean that it ruined the whole movie.  You wouldn't know it asking those people.

The scene by itself is nothing of consequence, if Luke's plot was something in keeping with his actual character in the OT then the scene itself wouldn't matter at all beyond being a little weird moment.

It's just that it works as a quick representation of what Luke is reduced to in order for the plot of TLJ to work. His best friend is dead, his sister is running for her life, entire planets full of people and the democracy he fought to restore have been been destroyed, and yet there sits Luke Skywalker, refusing to help anyone with blue milk running through his beard. What a twist!

Edited February 22, 2018 by Perfect Xero

[Crs97]

9 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

Luke's "moment of character assassination" was completely awful and goes against every single thing we ever see from Luke in the OT. Everything that flows from it is similarly awful and character destroying.

I would marry this quote if it asked me.

[Morrigan2575]

16 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Like I said, the more I think about this movie, the worse the plot and characters get.

It's funny you should say this because I was just thinking about how Black Panther gets more impressive/better the more I think about it. As I discuss it and, think about the movie and connect all the little dots I find more things that surprise me in a good way.

With TLJ the more I think about it, the more I find flaws or things that didn't work or things that just didn't make sense. Yeah, there were things I liked but, mostly they were nostalgic; Puppet Yoda showing up, Luke/R2 reunion, symbolism of Luke staring at the twin Suns and, fading away. However, story wise it left a lot to be desired, IMO. 

Edited February 23, 2018 by Morrigan2575

[Lantern7]

On 2/12/2018 at 3:10 PM, VCRTracking said:

 

Just caught this. Great Lost shoutout at the beginning. I still think the image of Kylo Ren flailing around, looking like a lunatic because Luke was invisible the cameras. And I liked the bit with the grandpas.

[VCRTracking]

3 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Luke's "moment of character assassination" was completely awful and goes against every single thing we ever see from Luke in the OT. Everything that flows from it is similarly awful and character destroying.

Luke going nuts and tries to kill his father when he threatens to turn Leia to the Dark Side even though he spent the movie trying to redeem him. He stops himself but that quickness to violence when his loved ones are concerned is a character flaw that I didn't think would ever go away

3 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Right. Yoda never tries to teach Luke about his own failures so that Luke can learn from them. Yet Luke was apparently supposed to have learned to pass on the lessons of his own failures to his students even though his two masters constantly hid the actual truth surrounding their own failures from him. It's hypocritical as hell, but Yoda is allowed to deliver it like it's well earned wisdom.

Yes, Luke had the truth kept from him soso he should have learned not to do that. When Rey asks what happened with his nephew he straight up lies, not even the "point of view" thing Obi-Wan pulled or a lie of omission like Yoda, he straight up tells her a falsehood.

3 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

It's just that it works as a quick representation of what Luke is reduced to in order for the plot of TLJ to work. His best friend is dead, his sister is running for her life, entire planets full of people and the democracy he fought to restore have been been destroyed, and yet there sits Luke Skywalker, refusing to help anyone with blue milk running through his beard. What a twist!

 

And he ends up sacrificing his life to save her and her cause.

The 30 years since Return of the Jedi and the expanded universe have built Luke up in some fans minds as this infallible character that could not do wrong when that is not the character we see in the OT. Luke was a good person but he was also a flawed person who made mistakes, just like Han and Leia. That's why I buy he would be susceptible to hubris and arrogance and pride that comes from success just as well as feelings of shame, self-loathing, and guilt that we lesser mortals succumb to. Obi-Wan and Yoda failed just as badly as Luke but they aren't considered "ruined".

3 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I would marry this quote if it asked me.

And I would tell the quote it was desperate.

[Crs97]

The OT Luke left his training early and against Yoda’s wishes because he felt his friends’ pain and didn’t want anyone to be injured because of him.  Here the First Order is desperate to find him and killing everyone in its path, and he is hiding in the middle of nowhere and not caring about the millions dying.  Nope.

 

The OT Luke stared down the second most evil man in the galaxy and refused to fight him (until his sister was threatened and even then he had the strength and self-awareness to stop) because he saw a flicker of good in him.  Here Luke is ready to kill a child because he saw the potential for evil.  Nope.

 

We just need to agree to disagree.  I will continue to enjoy the OT as the Star Wars of my childhood and leave you to enjoy these new ones.

[VCRTracking]

28 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

The OT Luke left his training early and against Yoda’s wishes because he felt his friends’ pain and didn’t want anyone to be injured because of him. 

 

The OT Luke stared down the second most evil man in the galaxy and refused to fight him (until his sister was threatened and even then he had the strength and self-awareness to stop) because he saw a flicker of good in him. 

Luke felt his loved ones threatened by this person consumed by darkness but had the self awareness to stop because he was just a boy.

28 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

Here the First Order is desperate to find him and killing everyone in its path, and he is hiding in the middle of nowhere and not caring about the millions dying.  Nope.

He felt the Jedi had done more harm than good. HE had done more harm than good. You're right the Luke in TLJ isn't like the OT Luke(who really was a different person in each movie). The TLJ Luke was someone who thought he could avoid the same mistakes of his mentors but learned the hard way the folly of resurrecting a broken institution.

For years fans were so worried about how the worst thing would be if Luke turned into Vader when in reality the worst thing for fans is that he became just like Obi-Wan and Yoda.

24 minutes ago, doram said:

19 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Which is why Finn and his injuries from TFA are played as a joke here, it's to undercut Kylo Ren's evil portrayal from TFA so Rey can bond with him.

Well said. You cut right to the heart of the rational.

The rational is Rey realized Kylo can't be saved the way Vader was saved by Luke and that her one moment of happiness in the whole movie was reuniting with Finn.

24 minutes ago, doram said:

I think its telling that the PT is looking better and better post-TLJ than they did post-TFA.

They do look better because they show how the Jedi Order failed as referenced in TLJ and that there needed to be a change.

Edited February 23, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Joe]

19 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

It's also worth noting that Rey doesn't even spare a thought for Finn in this movie that I can recall, especially not when she's having Force tea bonding time with the man who almost killed him. Which is why Finn and his injuries from TFA are played as a joke here, it's to undercut Kylo Ren's evil portrayal from TFA so Rey can bond with him.

It completely undercuts and obliterates the emotional finish to The Force Awakens, and does so in a mocking way.

In TFA, Rey and Finn's first meeting is violent. She beats him up. Then she allies with him. But look at Rey and Ren's meetings. In TFA, he KOs her, he interrogates her, she beats him up. In TLJ, when she first sees him through their connection, they both go for each other. That doesn't work, so they end up talking. They both believe that the other will join their side. It doesn't work, but she doesn't kill him when he's KOed in the throne room. She'll fight someone fairly, but won't take cheap shots. And look what happens when she reconnects with Finn. They're still just as devoted to each other as before. I don't see how trying to redeem Ren is mocking Finn.

[Perfect Xero]

3 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Luke going nuts and tries to kill his father when he threatens to turn Leia to the Dark Side even though he spent the movie trying to redeem him. He stops himself but that quickness to violence when his loved ones are concerned is a character flaw that I didn't think would ever go away

Yes, the only thing that was able to push Luke to strike out against Darth Vader was a direct threat from Vader against Luke's sister.

Which is exactly why his first instinct upon sensing the dark side in his sleeping nephew would never be to strike out against him. The only member of Luke's family who is in any danger at that point was Ben Solo. Ben Solo is the person who Luke would have been trying to save and protect in that scene.

Quote

And he ends up sacrificing his life to save her and her cause.The 30 years since Return of the Jedi and the expanded universe have built Luke up in some fans minds as this infallible character that could not do wrong when that is not the character we see in the OT. Luke was a good person but he was also a flawed person who made mistakes, just like Han and Leia. That's why I buy he would be susceptible to hubris and arrogance and pride that comes from success just as well as feelings of shame, self-loathing, and guilt that we lesser mortals succumb to. Obi-Wan and Yoda failed just as badly as Luke but they aren't considered "ruined".

Obi Wan and Yoda failed nowhere near as badly as Luke does in this movie.

When faced with the reality of Anakin's fall to the dark side under Palpatine's influence Yoda and Obi Wan's first move was not to wallow in self pity over their failures, it was to go confront Vader and Sidious. Kenobi tried to reach his 'brother' and was able to defeat Vader (but was unable to strike a finishing blow against someone he loved) but Yoda was unable to defeat Palpatine, which allowed him to solidify his power over the Republic and forced them into hiding, having been branded traitors.

Their first failures are simply being outmatched, assuming that the man who'd had his limbs cut off on the edge of a lava pit was as good as dead, and missing the warning signs with Anakin and Palpatine.

Luke, on the other hand, draws his weapon against his sleeping nephew rather than try to help him, then runs away and hides because he's ashamed allowing Snoke and Ben to rebuild the Empire and destroy the Republic.

And when the older Yoda and Obi Wan are reached and given the chance to help the new generation they are both quick to take it.

Luke, when reached with news that Han is dead, the Republic is destroyed, and Leia is in need of his help ... does nothing.

[VCRTracking]

Some fans: "Kylo Ren is a piece of shit that doesn't deserve redemption! Rey would never even think about being nice to him! HE DESERVES TO DIE A HORRIBLE DEATH!!!

Same fans: "Luke totally overreacted to seeing what was in Kylo's heart. Why didn't he try to help him first?"

Me:

People act like Luke saw the darkness in Ben and was like "Hm. That's interesting." and then switched on his lightsaber. Luke was terrified by what he saw. His face at that moment is the definition of "shook". He wasn't seeing his nephew at that moment, he saw the destroyer of everything he loved. Then, like on the Death Star, he came to his senses, but it was too late. Ben saw him and reacted.

1 hour ago, Perfect Xero said:

Yes, the only thing that was able to push Luke to strike out against Darth Vader was a direct threat from Vader against Luke's sister.

Which is exactly why his first instinct upon sensing the dark side in his sleeping nephew would never be to strike out against him. The only member of Luke's family who is in any danger at that point was Ben Solo. Ben Solo is the person who Luke would have been trying to save and protect in that scene.

Obi Wan and Yoda failed nowhere near as badly as Luke does in this movie.

When faced with the reality of Anakin's fall to the dark side under Palpatine's influence Yoda and Obi Wan's first move was not to wallow in self pity over their failures, it was to go confront Vader and Sidious. Kenobi tried to reach his 'brother' and was able to defeat Vader (but was unable to strike a finishing blow against someone he loved) but Yoda was unable to defeat Palpatine, which allowed him to solidify his power over the Republic and forced them into hiding, having been branded traitors.

Their first failures are simply being outmatched, assuming that the man who'd had his limbs cut off on the edge of a lava pit was as good as dead, and missing the warning signs with Anakin and Palpatine.

Luke, on the other hand, draws his weapon against his sleeping nephew rather than try to help him, then runs away and hides because he's ashamed allowing Snoke and Ben to rebuild the Empire and destroy the Republic.

And when the older Yoda and Obi Wan are reached and given the chance to help the new generation they are both quick to take it.

Yep. Obi-Wan and Yoda didn't wallow in self-pity. They had a totally great plan: Take Anakin's children, split them up to be raised by different people, hide from the Empire, wait until one of them is grown to train them so he or she would kill their father and Palpatine. Also they learned how to be Force Ghosts.

Talk about Hail Mary passes.

1 hour ago, Perfect Xero said:

Luke, when reached with news that Han is dead, the Republic is destroyed, and Leia is in need of his help ... does nothing.

He grieves Han by going into the Falcon, sees Artoo again, Leia's old message coaxes him into training Rey, but only to teach her why the Jedi should end.

[Perfect Xero]

33 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Some fans: "Kylo Ren is a piece of shit that doesn't deserve redemption! Rey would never even think about being nice to him! HE DESERVES TO DIE A HORRIBLE DEATH!!!

Same fans: "Luke totally overreacted to seeing what was in Kylo's heart. Why didn't he try to help him first?"

Me:
 

Me: It's almost like some fans believe that Rey and Luke are different characters with different histories and relationships with the Ben Solo/Kylo Ren character that inform how they should react to the different situations they were in at the different times they were in them.

Speaking of different characters:

Quote

People act like Luke saw the darkness in Ben and was like "Hm. That's interesting." and then switched on his lightsaber. Luke was terrified by what he saw. His face at that moment is the definition of "shook". He wasn't seeing his nephew at that moment, he saw the destroyer of everything he loved. Then, like on the Death Star, he came to his senses, but it was too late. Ben saw him and reacted

I guess Ben just sleeps in a very menacing and threatening manner, so much so that it's the equivalent of Darth Vader threatening your sister.

Quote

He grieves Han by going into the Falcon, sees Artoo again, Leia's old message coaxes him into training Rey, but only to teach her why the Jedi should end.

So Luke is reminded that his sister needs his help and decides to ... not only not go help himself, but to try to convince the only other person he knows of who can possible hope to stand up to Snoke and Kylo to not help either?

Wow, that's actually even worse than Luke doing nothing.

[Browncoat]

On 2/22/2018 at 10:41 PM, Perfect Xero said:

And when the older Yoda and Obi Wan are reached and given the chance to help the new generation they are both quick to take it.

Neither was quick to take the chance.  Obi Wan didn't even want to admit he WAS Obi Wan!  And Yoda kept nattering on about how Luke was too old and untrainable, before reluctantly agreeing to help.

On 2/23/2018 at 3:17 AM, Perfect Xero said:

I guess Ben just sleeps in a very menacing and threatening manner, so much so that it's the equivalent of Darth Vader threatening your sister.

Seeing Ben sleeping was not the first time Luke had met him, or seen into his mind.

[VCRTracking]

On 2/23/2018 at 12:17 AM, Perfect Xero said:

Me: It's almost like some fans believe that Rey and Luke are different characters with different histories and relationships with the Ben Solo/Kylo Ren character that inform how they should react to the different situations they were in at the different times they were in them.

Or those fans refused to see both have flaws inherent in their personalities that would make them react the way they did. Luke did what he did he because of fear of what Ben could become and Rey did what she did because of hope of what he could be instead.

 

On 2/23/2018 at 12:17 AM, Perfect Xero said:

I guess Ben just sleeps in a very menacing and threatening manner, so much so that it's the equivalent of Darth Vader threatening your sister.

What part of "see into his mind and heart" do you not get?

 

On 2/23/2018 at 12:17 AM, Perfect Xero said:

So Luke is reminded that his sister needs his help and decides to ... not only not go help himself, but to try to convince the only other person he knows of who can possible hope to stand up to Snoke and Kylo to not help either?

Wow, that's actually even worse than Luke doing nothing.

He was trying to convince her that the Jedi have only made things worse in the galaxy and would continue to do so. He was wrong and he saw that eventually.

Luke is like his mother. In Return of the Jedi we see how that can be a good thing. In The Last Jedi, we also see how it could be bad.

Edited February 24, 2018 by VCRTracking