S03.E08: Episode 8

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, oceanblue said:

I'm judging her the same way that I'd judge anyone who said "let's start our own family" when there is already a child in the picture.  And my judgment is simply that it hit my ear wrong, and it made me question who she is and what she's thinking.  We'll see how it plays out.

I can't blame her for saying that. Joanie is not Luisa's "own", she's Alison's. Luisa took care of Joanie when Alison couldn't/wouldn't, but she was never going to be Joanie's mother. She wants a child that she can be a mother to - how can anyone fault her for that?

[CocoaGoddess]

I'm full of self loathing that I actually watched the Cole/Alison scene three times with longing in my heart. I actually feel damaged, like one of the characters, because this is nonsensical and this won't end well. 

The heart wants what the heart wants. 

[Sheenieb]

Quote

 I know I'm probably being picky and yes, I do know about "poetic" license, etc. However, the time frames are driving me batty. I'm sure I'm not the only New Yorker here and if you are a New Yorker, then you know how absurd these little driving trips our characters are making are. 

Ha, although I'm a New Yorker, I didn't even catch that. It could be, because like most New Yorkers, I don't have a drivers license. But what made me do a double-take was last season's "Whitney wants to move to New York to model." The writers are clearly from out of state because no one says that. Helen should've said "move to the city."  

[Pallas]

On 1/17/2017 at 9:59 AM, MaggieG said:

Regarding Alison's "job", I do think it would be something good for her, but I'm confused as to why Cole thought it was a huge deal? She could work during the week and get Joanie on the weekends. Or work Mon thru Thu and get Joanie Fri, Sat and Sun. That way it wouldn't interrupt her school schedule.

Absolutely. But as Vixenbynight said above, it seems what struck Cole as risible (and me as ludicrous) was that Alison enthused about her good fortune without a nod to how it might affect their shared custody arrangements of a few days' standing. And after Cole realized he was going to have to ask, "What about Joanie?, " Alison looked baffled and replied, "What about Joanie?"   

Alison had just driven from New Jersey to Montauk. She'd had those hours to remember her daughter and to consider how she wanted to make this work. Starting with how to introduce the topic and propose her plan to her ex-husband (and by extension, his wife). But she's impulsive, doesn't plan? Fine: we know she's shrewd and a survivor; call it a scheme. Alison wouldn't fail to foresee being foiled, nor forget to try to take the first advantage. Especially because she was excited -- good news, about her, to share with Cole! -- and wanted his approval.

Edited January 19, 2017 by Pallas

[truthaboutluv]

The best part of that scene (can't remember which one of their POV it was in) was when Cole told Alison he wasn't in the mood for her crazy today and just walked away looking beyond exhausted by Alison.

[RedheadZombie]

4 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I can't blame her for saying that. Joanie is not Luisa's "own", she's Alison's. Luisa took care of Joanie when Alison couldn't/wouldn't, but she was never going to be Joanie's mother. She wants a child that she can be a mother to - how can anyone fault her for that?

Maybe it's just semantics, but I take umbrage with equating someone being in a psychiatric hospital for six months as someone who "wouldn't" take care of their child.  Mental illness isn't a game, even if some of the characters on this show treat it as such.  Alison cared for Joanie consistently, until she had a mental breakdown and was hospitalized for six months.  Then she came right back to town, and attempted to regain contact with her child.  Of course Joanie could have been visiting her to maintain contact, but Cole had Alison sign away her rights, and Luisa had taken over role as mother.  It's not as simple as Alison always being in the wrong.  I don't believe there's ever been one mention of Alison's inadequacies as a mother to either Gabriel or Joanie. 

I'm not necessarily faulting Luisa for anything, but I think she was taken aback that Joanie so quickly adapted back to Alison.  I did find it a little strange how much responsibility Cole put on Luisa.  Even when he came home one night after Luisa had been caring for Joanie, he tells Luisa to get her ready for bed so he can read her a story.  I may be wrong, but doesn't Luisa work a full-time (plus) job at the Lobster Roll?  It would have been nice if Cole came home and got his own kid ready for bed.  But that's nitpicking.

[truthaboutluv]

Quote

but Cole had Alison sign away her rights

Alison made the decision to sign away her rights to Joanie. Luisa was quick to point out that no one forced Alison to do anything and Alison did not disagree. She merely said that at the time she didn't feel fit to take care of Joanie but that she was better now.

Alison cared for Joanie consistently, until she had a mental breakdown

I'm pretty sure Alison left Joanie on Noah's account for an entire summer when she and Cole were working on remodeling The Lobster Roll. Now I know that was a contrivance to explain why Cole never saw or met Joanie (and see the resemblance) until that day in the court room but it still happened. So much so that I remember Noah being bothered by it.

Edited January 19, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[izabella]

3 hours ago, Pallas said:

Absolutely. But as Vixenbynight said above, it seems what struck Cole as risible (and me as ludicrous) was that Alison enthused about her good fortune without a nod to how it might affect their shared custody arrangements of a few days' standing. And after Cole realized he was going to have to ask, "What about Joanie?, " Alison looked baffled and replied, "What about Joanie?"   

I gave both Cole and Allison side-eye, because where was Joanie right then?  With Luisa?

[NutMeg]

I cannot really fault Alison for being enthusiastic about the possibility, down the line, after completing training, of a job she suddenly realized she could actually be good at. Which must be a first in her life as we know it and is reason enough for her to be over the moon. Now the urge to share that exhilaration with Cole, within the context, that I can side eye.

[truthaboutluv]

6 hours ago, izabella said:

I gave both Cole and Allison side-eye, because where was Joanie right then?  With Luisa?

Doesn't she go to school? It looked like late morning/middle of the day when that conversation happened. 

[Milburn Stone]

Luisa's comment seems to be a Rorschach Test, but what I saw in it was, yes, for the moment she wasn't thinking that Joanie was part of "their own" family, and that was not the perfect way for her to feel, but also, it was an entirely human way for her to feel.

Edited January 19, 2017 by Milburn Stone

[right]

8 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Luisa's comment seems to be a Rorschach Test, but what I saw in it was, yes, for the moment she wasn't thinking that Joanie was part of "their own" family, and that was not the perfect way for her to feel, but also, it was an entirely human way for her to feel.

I'm totally on Luisa's side in wanting her "own" child with Cole.  The cold hard fact is stepparents are not the same as "real" parents.  If Cole were to drop dead in the next episode, Luisa would have no legal right to ever see Joanie again.  Alison could pack her up and move where ever she like and Luisa would be a distant memory to Joanie.  Wanting to make all kids in a family the same is a great sentiment, but in reality it's not true.

[vixenbynight]

10 hours ago, right said:

I'm totally on Luisa's side in wanting her "own" child with Cole.  The cold hard fact is stepparents are not the same as "real" parents.  If Cole were to drop dead in the next episode, Luisa would have no legal right to ever see Joanie again.  Alison could pack her up and move where ever she like and Luisa would be a distant memory to Joanie.  Wanting to make all kids in a family the same is a great sentiment, but in reality it's not true.

I also understood Luisa's want to have her own child with her husband Cole, which doesn't negate Luisa's love and affection for Joanie. Yet, it does seem like Luisa is at times, unfortunately placed in the role of "babysitter" to Joanie, whenever it's convenient for the schedules of Cole and Alison.

[BonnieD]

this show is what the term hate watching was invented for. Over the past couple of weeks I've come very close to deleting it from my record list, but now it only has two more episodes so i guess I'll hang on

[Snewtsie]

4 hours ago, BonnieD said:

this show is what the term hate watching was invented for. Over the past couple of weeks I've come very close to deleting it from my record list, but now it only has two more episodes so i guess I'll hang on

I think a lot of us feel the same.  Showtime use to have many good shows, but now The Affair is the one I watch (I got tired of Carrie's neurotic antics on Homeland a couple of seasons ago).  Once these 2 episodes are over, I am cancelling Showtime and never looking back.

[DarkRaichu]

On 1/18/2017 at 0:51 PM, oceanblue said:

I'm judging her the same way that I'd judge anyone who said "let's start our own family" when there is already a child in the picture.  And my judgment is simply that it hit my ear wrong, and it made me question who she is and what she's thinking.  We'll see how it plays out.

This was from Cole POV and Cole had the tendency to summarize long conversation to 1 or 2 sentences.  Just compare the 2 POVs when Alison told Cole her experience with the suicidal patient.  So, it was very probable Luisa put a lot of thought and words to the conversation and did not phrase it exactly like that, but Cole summarized the whole thing to "let's start our own family".

Edited January 20, 2017 by DarkRaichu

[WaltersHair]

It's occurred to me that Cole is the only character of the main four who has not had a mental break during the series. Helen's was short, but it still impacted all the characters.

Alison has also 'run off' in every season: to the island with Noah twice (and I believe they literally missed the boat home both times), she went with Noah to live down by the river with that skeevy couple, and then to the clinic.

I live in Chicago so understand the magical driving Alison and all the characters are doing. It would be like driving from the northern suburbs to Chicago, taking the Skyway and then various roads to Indianapolis. Crazy.

And no doctor would see Cole after 9pm at night. There might be someone at the clinic/hospital to do intakes and cover the patients, but that's about it. It would also be a huge violation of doctor-patient confidentiality to talk about Alison to an ex-husband without her knowledge or permission. So, in my book, he isn't off the hook with that explanation. It would actually make him a more interesting character to have stabbed Noah, because he is boring as hell this season otherwise.

Alison and Helen drinking Long Island ice teas together all civil-like was just weird. They both have to drive afterward and hasn't anyone learned that's a bad idea in this series?

eta: and Alison ran off to the commune until she got a severe case of bark infestation.

Edited January 21, 2017 by WaltersHair

[subina167]

On 1/18/2017 at 5:37 PM, Sheenieb said:

Ha, although I'm a New Yorker, I didn't even catch that. It could be, because like most New Yorkers, I don't have a drivers license. But what made me do a double-take was last season's "Whitney wants to move to New York to model." The writers are clearly from out of state because no one says that. Helen should've said "move to the city."  

Very true!

[RedheadZombie]

On January 18, 2017 at 9:03 PM, truthaboutluv said:

Alison made the decision to sign away her rights to Joanie. Luisa was quick to point out that no one forced Alison to do anything and Alison did not disagree. She merely said that at the time she didn't feel fit to take care of Joanie but that she was better now.

 

 

I'm pretty sure Alison left Joanie on Noah's account for an entire summer when she and Cole were working on remodeling The Lobster Roll. Now I know that was a contrivance to explain why Cole never saw or met Joanie (and see the resemblance) until that day in the court room but it still happened. So much so that I remember Noah being bothered by it.

Anyone who is committed to a psychiatric hospital (especially for many months) is by definition not decisional.  I doubt any legal document she signed would hold up in court.  The whole court situation was ridiculous.  Alison's estranged husband's criminal history is relevant, but not Cole's past history running a drug ring, or pulling a gun on an entire family, including an underrated girl.  It was too contrived.

As for who cared for Joanie last season, I happened to read an old post, and I commented that Joanie was with Alison for only half the week (with Noah the other), and how contrived the whole thing was to keep Cole from every seeing Joanie.  I didn't believe it, but were she a man, I'm not sure there would be criticism for a father who's away for half of each week for his job.   Who knows?

[lazylou]

Before we completely condemn Noah, let us consider: He was a seventeen year old kid who has always wanted to go to college, but he and the mother have been  abandoned by his father and his sister while she is dying of MS or maybe it is Lou Gehrig's.  He cannot leave his mother in her condition. Then he receives a full ride scholarship to a school elsewhere. Even if he helped her die at her request, he would be likely to realize all his life how convenient her death was for him and to question his own motives.    It certainly makes clear why he was willing to serve a prison sentence for Helen many years later.  

The thing that does not ring true to me...stabbing himself in the throes of delusion.  Does this happen often?    Also, was Gunther truly innocent in all of this...does his mere presence serve to remind Noah of his mother's death?  really?  Perhaps some of Noah's memories are true?

I have trouble believing that both Alison and Helen stand by silently and let Noah go to jail.  Alison surely could have stepped up as a witness and put an end to the whole legal proceeding, as someone pointed out earlier.  

This entire  season has gone a step beyond my ability to suspend disbelief.

[Giesela]

So so many 2nd and 3rd marriages with kids from  previous marriages have a child together "of their own" to cement their marriage, whatever. So there are 2 kids from the Mom's side and 2 kids from the Dad's side but that isn't enough now you have to have a 5th or a 6th because your marriage won't survive without contribution to overpopulation.  Do I know of any second marriages that haven't done that?   Luisa's scene about wanting to start their own family is the norm.  When people with step children get divorced - what happens?  Yea.  

No comments on the parents?  The scene I will always remember after I have long forgotten the rest of this hot mess is the one at the beach house where the newly minted reconciled parents who are now suddenly all happy and nice vs nasty and negative are telling her its all their fault and they are taking all the blame for the problems their poor parenting caused.  For every person who has talked about their parents in therapy, who has wished their parents hadn't divorced.....omg what a fantasy!  Alice through the Looking Glass surreal!  Has this ever ever happened?   I thought this was the most amazing scene ever for its sheer alternate universe craziness.  Even more than whether Gunther is real, this made me think this is a Dallas Who Killed Bobby season (its all a dream)

So Noah (1) selfishly killed his mother without her knowlege (2) killed his mother with her knowledge; either way suffering years of guilt.  

Question: he tells people who don't now any different that his dad wasn't there - but wasn't that his dad who chased him to the lake roaring what have you done?  Was his dad there? Would he have taken care of his mom?  

What is the deal with Noah always calling Gunther "John" and Gunther getting angry and telling him its Gunther.  Haven't watched the last episode but it seems significant.  

Edited March 10, 2017 by Giesela