S06.E01: Fugitive

[OtterMommy]

3 hours ago, withanaich said:

Holy shit. And here my silly ass was thinking it was because Juliette was originally supposed to be the science-y character who could use her knowledge of creatures (mundane though they were) to figure out how to take down certain Wesen, but then when Rosalee came in, they had no idea what to do with Juliette anymore. But no. It's not a kinda-smart decision made by writers who could SEE they were perhaps painting themselves into a corner. It's more bullshit. I should've known.

Going over to the everything wrong thread....

[possibilities]

The fact that they completely abandoned the Reapers without any explanation shows they had no clarity about the mytharc at all, and were just throwing stuff at the wall and then abandoning it at random.

[tpel]

Oddly, the acting for Diana kind of works for me. She is chronologically 2 or 3 years old, but her brain and body have developed much faster than normal. So, she has the intellect and language development of a much older child, but the emotional maturity of a toddler/preschooler. I remember when one of my godchildren was young, her parents commenting that they were briefly worried that she might be a sociopath. She's now a wonderful, empathetic tween, and her parents were never seriously worried, but I knew what they meant: there is that phase where the whole world revolves around the child's wants, which can be overwhelmingly important to her, and the impact of her actions on others is just not on her radar. That's where Diana is. She's glommed onto her mother, and the idea of her mother and father being together, and she'll do whatever it takes to get what she wants. She's not evil, precisely, but she is amoral, with all the self-awareness and self-control of a three-year-old . . . who happens to be nearly omnipotent. 

So, yeah, not a good idea for Nick and Adalind to be making out when she's in the house!

As for the writers' throw-it-against-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks approach, occasionally it works -- for example, the expansion of Meisner's role seemed unplanned, but welcome. The problem is, they don't check to see what is actually sticking before throwing more, and we end up knee deep in undercooked plotlines.

Edited January 10, 2017 by tpel

[ShadowFacts]

12 minutes ago, tpel said:

So, yeah, not a good idea for Nick and Adalind to be making out when she's in the house!

Also, Adalind telling Renard to back off on discipline in view of the fact that she kills portends some tough sledding ahead for the parental units. 

[merylinkid]

6 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Also, Adalind telling Renard to back off on discipline in view of the fact that she kills portends some tough sledding ahead for the parental units. 

It's a Good Life.   A real good life.   Just don't go to the corn field.   And definitely don't sing.

[Prevailing Wind]

Fitting. In the original story, Anthony was only 3 years old.  Hard to get a 3-year-old to act, so Twilight Zone made him 6.

[neuromom]

8 hours ago, tpel said:

Oddly, the acting for Diana kind of works for me. She is chronologically 2 or 3 years old, but her brain and body have developed much faster than normal. So, she has the intellect and language development of a much older child, but the emotional maturity of a toddler/preschooler. I remember when one of my godchildren was young, her parents commenting that they were briefly worried that she might be a sociopath. She's now a wonderful, empathetic tween, and her parents were never seriously worried, but I knew what they meant: there is that phase where the whole world revolves around the child's wants, which can be overwhelmingly important to her, and the impact of her actions on others is just not on her radar. That's where Diana is. She's glommed onto her mother, and the idea of her mother and father being together, and she'll do whatever it takes to get what she wants. She's not evil, precisely, but she is amoral, with all the self-awareness and self-control of a three-year-old . . . who happens to be nearly omnipotent. 

So, yeah, not a good idea for Nick and Adalind to be making out when she's in the house!

As for the writers' throw-it-against-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks approach, occasionally it works -- for example, the expansion of Meisner's role seemed unplanned, but welcome. The problem is, they don't check to see what is actually sticking before throwing more, and we end up knee deep in undercooked plotlines.

Thank you. You sum up what I feel about Diana as well. I just couldn't come up with the right words. I have a disabled child who is not quite "typical" he just turned 12 today, and although he is physically in puberty, he has many skills that fall into the toddler/young child area. And though his speech is unintelligible for the most part (though it's improving ) , his receptive langaiage abilities appear to be ABOVE average at times. So, really, his development is all over the map - from probably 4-14! So I totally get what you are describing about Diana. 

[TheGreenWave]

21 hours ago, tpel said:

Oddly, the acting for Diana kind of works for me.

And, perhaps I'm giving too much credit here, but Diana's stilted delivery of her lines kinda makes me think that they are trying to have her act as if she has no emotions.  It's just so dry.

[withanaich]

I think that's probably what it is, TheGreenWave: a combination of a bad child actor and someone's direction to have her come off as magically emotionless and therefore, more creepy. (No need; a kid trying to force her parents to bang and murdering Daddy's sex buddy is plenty creepy all on its own.)

[icewolf]

I'm just sick to death of creepy Diana, they should have just kept her in the writing wastebasket of season 3. The show has become all about her these last two years, when they should be focusing more on Nick and HIS group.

I'm also stick of Adalind having babies, and the writers for lazily writing in Claire's real life pregnancy, that was soap opera level writing

Edited January 11, 2017 by icewolf

[OtterMommy]

27 minutes ago, icewolf said:

I'm just sick to death of creepy Diana, they should have just kept her in the writing wastebasket of season 3. The show has become all about her these last two years, when they should be focusing more on Nick and HIS group.

I'm also stick of Adalind having babies, and the writers for lazily writing in Claire's real life pregnancy, that was soap opera level writing

I'm not even sure it was soap opera level.  

[ShadowFacts]

2 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

I'm not even sure it was soap opera level.  

Heh, in soap opera land there would have at least been DNA test(s).  And probably test result switcheroos, but at least the daddy would have wanted proof.

[Darklazr]

6 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Heh, in soap opera land there would have at least been DNA test(s).  And probably test result switcheroos, but at least the daddy would have wanted proof.

This!  It made no sense not to recast Eric Renard and he could have taken Adalind and his daughter off our hands!

[OtterMommy]

15 minutes ago, Darklazr said:

This!  It made no sense not to recast Eric Renard and he could have taken Adalind and his daughter off our hands!

I'm not even sure they had to re-cast Eric.  The actor was open to coming back to the show. 

[ShadowFacts]

I know we're not supposed to pay attention to such details, but I've been thinking about people's living arrangements.  Where are Eve and Trubel going to stay now that their underground cellblock is not habitable?  What about Nick when he comes back in from being on the run? Bunking in with Hank, and Monroe and Rosalee have that bedroom Nick used before.  Are they going to invest in new sets for a new apartment, or just gloss over it all?  That mansion of Bonaparte's that Adalind and Renard are in is beautiful, by the way.

[withanaich]

Quote

Heh, in soap opera land there would have at least been DNA test(s).  And probably test result switcheroos, but at least the daddy would have wanted proof.

Seriously! It’s so hilarious that AT NO POINT did anyone say, “Hey, maybe Adalind’s lying? Because that’s what she does and that’s what she’s done the entire time you’ve known her. Maybe we should check to see if she’s telling the truth. You know, with science.” Hell, Rosalee probably knows of some magical paternity test they could’ve used, that’s faster and more accurate than a regular one. But no, no DNA tests, because lazy writers are lazy.

15 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

I'm also stick of Adalind having babies, and the writers for lazily writing in Claire's real life pregnancy, that was soap opera level writing

That's a good sign of a lazy TV writer: they automatically write an actress' pregnancy into their character's life when there is NO NEED and it in fact actively harms the plot. (I'm looking at you, OUAT.) Even if they didn't want to have CC holding giant briefcases for several months, there are ways around that that other (clever) writers have used, like surrogacy. Or they could have had some magical reason, because they have the opportunity to do that on this show. But no, let's have more babies and kids running around that they don't know what to do with. Monrosalee's baby is the only one that should have existed on this show, to be honest. And now that plotline is getting swept under the rug in favor of ... I don't even know what. A creepy kid no one is interested in? More character assassination for Juliette and Adalind? 

Quote

Are they going to invest in new sets for a new apartment, or just gloss over it all?

Gloss over it, I'll bet. Because they're lazy, and I'm pretty sure it didn't even occur to them until it was too late.

Edited January 12, 2017 by withanaich

[OtterMommy]

7 hours ago, withanaich said:

Seriously! It’s so hilarious that AT NO POINT did anyone say, “Hey, maybe Adalind’s lying? Because that’s what she does and that’s what she’s done the entire time you’ve known her. Maybe we should check to see if she’s telling the truth. You know, with science.” Hell, Rosalee probably knows of some magical paternity test they could’ve used, that’s faster and more accurate than a regular one. But no, no DNA tests, because lazy writers are lazy.

That's a good sign of a lazy TV writer: they automatically write an actress' pregnancy into their character's life when there is NO NEED and it in fact actively harms the plot. (I'm looking at you, OUAT.) Even if they didn't want to have CC holding giant briefcases for several months, there are ways around that that other (clever) writers have used, like surrogacy. Or they could have had some magical reason, because they have the opportunity to do that on this show. But no, let's have more babies and kids running around that they don't know what to do with. Monrosalee's baby is the only one that should have existed on this show, to be honest. And now that plotline is getting swept under the rug in favor of ... I don't even know what. A creepy kid no one is interested in? More character assassination for Juliette and Adalind? 

Gloss over it, I'll bet. Because they're lazy, and I'm pretty sure it didn't even occur to them until it was too late.

Comments about living situations in the spoiler thread. 

ETA: Just realized I replied to the wrong post....This should have gone on @ShadowFacts post above.  What can I say?  I'm snowed in and starting to go batty....

Edited January 12, 2017 by OtterMommy

[Darklazr]

14 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

I'm not even sure they had to re-cast Eric.  The actor was open to coming back to the show. 

Really?  I had not heard that James Frain would have come back to the show.  The writers seem to want to kill off Marie, Eric, Roland and Momma Grimm without thinking about long term stories that could net them a ten year show.

[OtterMommy]

18 minutes ago, Darklazr said:

Really?  I had not heard that James Frain would have come back to the show.  The writers seem to want to kill off Marie, Eric, Roland and Momma Grimm without thinking about long term stories that could net them a ten year show.

Yeah, I read an interview with him after the fact (I'm not sure if the interview was done between seasons 2 and 3 or if it was done after Eric was "killed," but I read it some time after it had been out for while) and he said he would be open to it.  I wish they had taken him up on it, Eric was a much better villain than Viktor (although I have a feeling he was also much more expensive).

[iMonrey]

Quote

Here is the interesting thing, forum posters tend to be critical of Nadalind almost across the board, although there is some variance between different forums.  Obviously, forum posters aren't exactly typical either--but I do think that they, well, a better judge of what is going on and are probably closer to what the audience at large is feeling.  If shows really wanted to know what was being said, Twitter and Facebook are not the places to go (again, that applies to pretty much all shows).

And you would think they would know this. I mean they have to know the ratings are falling. TV lives and dies by AC Nielsen. They don't work in a bubble. So when ratings start to fall you would think someone who works for the show would try to dig into the problem and look around and see if they could find out why.

The problem is that TV writers aren't inclined to accept criticism of their work, let alone actively seek it out. They probably rely on those Twitter and Facebook followers for justification. "See? The fans love it!" They are more likely to attribute falling ratings to "changing viewing habits" and "the rise of cable and streaming services," etc. 

Also, this trope that actors who demonstrate any sort of chemistry must be thrown together in a romantic pairing - regardless of their past history - is so hard-wired into TV writers' way of thinking we never seem to get away from it.

There appears to be a dearth of really good writers in Hollywood. 

[jhlipton]

On 1/8/2017 at 3:43 PM, Darklazr said:

The writer's had a popular Friday show and they somehow were either watching the crap over at... whatever SyFy stuff was going on at the time and added it to Grimm.  T

Hey, now!  SyFy went through a bad period when they changed their name, and still have bad (but fun) movies,  but their series are far better than this mess.  Dark Matter, The Expanse, even the silliness of Z Nation, are better written than Grimm.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, jhlipton said:

Hey, now!  SyFy went through a bad period when they changed their name, and still have bad (but fun) movies,  but their series are far better than this mess.  Dark Matter, The Expanse, even the silliness of Z Nation, are better written than Grimm.

BSG set the bar for SyFy

[jhlipton]

I think that was the first series under the new head, who wanted, if not "serious", then well-made, science fiction.

[Blue Plastic]

Well, I actually liked this episode for the most part.  Since they have only 13 episodes to get to a final conclusion, they can't really piss around and give us stupid filler episodes about satyrs dancing through the tulips or something.  I hope, anyway.  It'd be nice if they could keep up the fast pace of the premiere for the remaining 12 episodes.

The only thing I didn't like was Juli-whoever's soul being wiped clean.  You could throw that beyotch in a vat of Clorox but nothing will wipe away the crap she pulled.  I will be SO disappointed if Nick + Pure As The Driven Snow Juliette are end game.  I like some of the supposition here that she could be meant to sacrifice herself.  I will hold onto that.  The dead guy grabbing her WAS interesting.  But I could have figured out that solution without having to run to the spell book!

Others have said it already but so many unbelievable, implausible plot points.  Why would Renard let all Nick's known friends and associates just prance through the precinct, making not-at-all-suspicious cell phone calls?  Why wouldn't the SWAT team just bust into Bud's shop just like they did at Monrosalee's?  Why didn't they all realize they needed to hide out?  Why was Nick able to go see Adalind without getting nabbed (or killed by Diana)?  Why is Renard full-on evil now?

Well, that last one I guess I know the answer to.  Plot convenience.  He started out meant to be an evil character but couldn't stay on the show while trying to full-on kill Nick at every turn, so he had to be grayed out.  Now he's back the way he started, I guess.  It would have been nice to get a little character-driven reasoning for this but whatever.  It is the way he started out so I guess I'll buy it.  However, I did enjoy him better as a gray character.

I have to admit I smiled at seeing everyone again - Nick, Monroe, Rosalee, Bud, Wu, Hank, even Trubel.  So nice.  I loves thems.  I will be sad to let go of them, or at least seeing new adventures with them.

[Darklazr]

21 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Hey, now!  SyFy went through a bad period when they changed their name, and still have bad (but fun) movies,  but their series are far better than this mess.  Dark Matter, The Expanse, even the silliness of Z Nation, are better written than Grimm.

Grimm writers should have concentrated on their own story bible and stayed away from what was being done on the other shows.

13 hours ago, Blue Plastic said:

Well, I actually liked this episode for the most part.  Since they have only 13 episodes to get to a final conclusion, they can't really piss around and give us stupid filler episodes about satyrs dancing through the tulips or something.  I hope, anyway.  It'd be nice if they could keep up the fast pace of the premiere for the remaining 12 episodes.

The only thing I didn't like was Juli-whoever's soul being wiped clean.  You could throw that beyotch in a vat of Clorox but nothing will wipe away the crap she pulled.  I will be SO disappointed if Nick + Pure As The Driven Snow Juliette are end game.  I like some of the supposition here that she could be meant to sacrifice herself.  I will hold onto that.  The dead guy grabbing her WAS interesting.  But I could have figured out that solution without having to run to the spell book!

Others have said it already but so many unbelievable, implausible plot points.  Why would Renard let all Nick's known friends and associates just prance through the precinct, making not-at-all-suspicious cell phone calls?  Why wouldn't the SWAT team just bust into Bud's shop just like they did at Monrosalee's?  Why didn't they all realize they needed to hide out?  Why was Nick able to go see Adalind without getting nabbed (or killed by Diana)?  Why is Renard full-on evil now?

Well, that last one I guess I know the answer to.  Plot convenience.  He started out meant to be an evil character but couldn't stay on the show while trying to full-on kill Nick at every turn, so he had to be grayed out.  Now he's back the way he started, I guess.  It would have been nice to get a little character-driven reasoning for this but whatever.  It is the way he started out so I guess I'll buy it.  However, I did enjoy him better as a gray character.

I have to admit I smiled at seeing everyone again - Nick, Monroe, Rosalee, Bud, Wu, Hank, even Trubel.  So nice.  I loves thems.  I will be sad to let go of them, or at least seeing new adventures with them.

Reasons.  Lots of reasons that the writers have yet to figure out.  I prefer a gray Renard who would NOT want wesens ruling the world, because at the end of the day, he wanted everyone to get along and hated chaos.

[OtterMommy]

10 minutes ago, Darklazr said:

Grimm writers should have concentrated on their own story bible and stayed away from what was being done on the other shows.

Yup.  Herein lies one of the biggest problems of the show.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I prefer a gray Renard who would NOT want wesens ruling the world, because at the end of the day, he wanted everyone to get along and hated chaos.

The problem with Renard is that he has been ill-defined since the very start. To this day I have no idea what his agenda is or ever was. I really don't think the writers knew what to do with him. He's been standing around making phone calls for six seasons and that's about it. While it's true he has helped Nick in the past,  he also had Adalind try to kill Aunt Marie in the pilot. So I'm not sure he could ever be classified as "morally gray." He's always had an agenda - we've just never known what the hell it was. He was working with the Resistance at one point - or so it seemed, at least. For all we know that was just a ruse on his part to get inside their organization. 

If this final season accomplishes anything, I hope they at least will finally spell out for us what Renard has wanted all along.

[withanaich]

14 hours ago, Blue Plastic said:

He started out meant to be an evil character but couldn't stay on the show while trying to full-on kill Nick at every turn, so he had to be grayed out.

I wouldn't even say that much. When the show started, we saw that Renard was going after Nick (and before that, his aunt) at someone else's behest. It was more business than it was personal (even if the people he was working for were his family members who hated him), and he really just wanted that damn key. At every turn, he was like, look, Nick, give me the key and I'll back off. Most of the time he was on the phone (and people snarking on him living with his phone in his hand will never get old to me) the conversation boiled down to, "Are you working to get the key?" or "Yes, yes, I know, the key. I'm on it."

Quote

So I'm not sure he could ever be classified as "morally gray."

Before everything went to shit, even if Renard's motivation wasn't fully fleshed out (Did he just want the Royals off his back? Was he hoping procuring the key would make Daddy love him?) we understood that it was somewhere in the middle. He was willing to kill and lie and screw over Hank and kick Nick's ass, and we saw him hungering for power ... but he was also willing to help Nick sometimes, and somewhere inside of him was a law and order man who wanted to see the truly bad guys pay and didn't want innocent civilians (people not involved with the Grimm-Royal-Wesen-Resistance struggle) to suffer. So that's what I think people mean by "morally gray." It's a poorly rendered morally gray, because This Show, These Writers (to borrow a lament from the OUAT threads), but he wasn't 100% good or 100% evil. Now, though, he's like, I'm not sure what just happened oh well RAWR SHOOT TO KILL. The only thing missing is a mustache for him to twirl. And they're not explaining why.

Edited January 13, 2017 by withanaich

[OtterMommy]

13 minutes ago, withanaich said:

I wouldn't even say that much. When the show started, we saw that Renard was going after Nick (and before that, his aunt) at someone else's behest. It was more business than it was personal (even if the people he was working for were his family members who hated him), and he really just wanted that damn key. At every turn, he was like, look, Nick, give me the key and I'll back off. Most of the time he was on the phone (and people snarking on him living with his phone in his hand will never get old to me) the conversation boiled down to, "Are you working to get the key?" or "Yes, yes, I know, the key. I'm on it."

 

I don't think Renard was EVER "going after" Nick (at least not until recently) He wanted the key--and said that he knew about Marie and the key long before Nick had--which makes me think that there was an opportunity for this concept completely foreign to Kouf and Greenwalt called "backstory" where maybe Nick was professionally groomed by Renard before the show started so that the two characters would be linked and if/when Nick became a Grimm, Renard would have some sort of pull over him.  But, Renard was not "against" Nick--in fact, he very much wanted Nick on his side...to the point that he was willing to put Hank in the middle to get to Nick (I don't believe that Renard ever wanted any harm to come to Hank--he just wanted him compromised enough that Adalind could get information/the key from Nick.  Raping and nearly killing Hank were tricks that Adalind pulled out on her own).

I think this is why the current NICK AND RENARD ARE NOW MORTAL ENEMIES plot is so ridiculous.  The show likes to gaslight tell us that this is the showdown that we've always wanted when...we haven't.  We may have wanted to know what Renard wanted with Nick--and I actually think it would have been more feasible for Renard to try and partner with Nick now that there is a power vacuum instead of going after him for reasons that Renard knows do not exist--but the show never gave us any reason for some epic showdown (and, no, season 2 doesn't count.  That wasn't a showdown.  That was a pissing contest).

Edited January 13, 2017 by OtterMommy
Typos

[Darklazr]

5 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

I don't think Renard was EVER "going after" Nick (at least not until recently) He wanted the key--and said that he knew about Marie and the key long before Nick had--which makes me think that there was an opportunity for this concept completely foreign to Kouf and Greenwalt called "backstory" where maybe Nick was professionally groomed by Renard before the show started so that the two characters would be linked and if/when Nick became a Grimm, Renard would have some sort of pull over him.  But, Renard was not "against" Nick--in fact, he very much wanted Nick on his side...to the point that he was willing to put Hank in the middle to get to Nick (I don't believe that Renard ever wanted any harm to come to Hank--he just wanted him compromised enough that Adalind could get information/the key from Nick.  Raping and nearly killing Hank were tricks that Adalind pulled out on her own).

I think this is why the current NICK AND RENARD ARE NOW MORTAL ENEMIES plot is so ridiculous.  The show likes to gaslight tell us that this is the showdown that we've always wanted when...we haven't.  We may have wanted to know what Renard wanted with Nick--and I actually think it would have been more feasible for Renard to try and partner with Nick now that there is a power vacuum instead of going after him for reasons that Renard knows do not exist--but the show never gave us any reason for some epic showdown (and, no, season 2 doesn't count.  That wasn't a showdown.  That was a pissing contest).

Marie's last name was Kessler and I don't think Renard even knew about her connection to Nick.  However, it was clear that Renard knew all about the keys and when Marie came to town, he was hell bent on getting that key.

Adalind raping Hank is one of the reasons that Diana should have died at birth and she has to deal with HER choices.  It still pisses me off that at the end of the day, Adalind regained her powers, her baby and will probably ride off into the sunset with Renard.  Adalind falling in love with her baby and losing that child due to her evilness is what the show should have written, instead of super duper powerful Diana eats the show!

[OtterMommy]

1 hour ago, Darklazr said:

Marie's last name was Kessler and I don't think Renard even knew about her connection to Nick.  However, it was clear that Renard knew all about the keys and when Marie came to town, he was hell bent on getting that key.

 

Renard did mention something about knowing about Nick's Aunt back in season 1, so I think that he did know there was a connection there, even with the different names.  But my point is that, until now, Renard never wanted to be on the opposite side of things with Nick--he wanted Nick to be on his side so that they could be some sort of all-powerful team.

[Darklazr]

4 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

Renard did mention something about knowing about Nick's Aunt back in season 1, so I think that he did know there was a connection there, even with the different names.  But my point is that, until now, Renard never wanted to be on the opposite side of things with Nick--he wanted Nick to be on his side so that they could be some sort of all-powerful team.

Yes, Renard knew about Marie Kessler, but I don't think he had any idea she was Nick's Aunt.  Otherwise, Renard could have used Nick a long time ago to obtain Marie's key.

Renard gave Nick the speech about the two of them working together in his office and why he did not give Adalind Marie's key.  I think the writers/show are blowing smoke and came up with Renard vs Nick for shits and grins.

[OtterMommy]

Just now, Darklazr said:

Yes, Renard knew about Marie Kessler, but I don't think he had any idea she was Nick's Aunt.  Otherwise, Renard could have used Nick a long time ago to obtain Marie's key.

Renard gave Nick the speech about the two of them working together in his office and why he did not give Adalind Marie's key.  I think the writers/show are blowing smoke and came up with Renard vs Nick for shits and grins.

I may have to go back and check (and I'm not motivated right now to do so), but I swear that Renard admitted knowing that Marie was Nick's aunt "for a long time."

I wonder if Kouf and Greenwalt ever watched season 1 of this show?

[Darklazr]

2 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

I may have to go back and check (and I'm not motivated right now to do so), but I swear that Renard admitted knowing that Marie was Nick's aunt "for a long time."

I wonder if Kouf and Greenwalt ever watched season 1 of this show?

LOL.  No, the writers just ignore whatever story they wrote last week!  

Renard asked Nick when was the last time he saw his Aunt and the response was not for several years.  This was the episode in which Adalind tried to poison Marie's IV bag.

[blazar]

16 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

(I don't believe that Renard ever wanted any harm to come to Hank--he just wanted him compromised enough that Adalind could get information/the key from Nick.  Raping and nearly killing Hank were tricks that Adalind pulled out on her own).

 

I Disagree.

[withanaich]

I believe the way it happened was that Renard basically told Adalind, "Do whatever you have to in order to compromise Hank so that Nick will hand over the key," Adalind came up with magical rape (because that's how Adalind rolls), and Renard was like, "Make it so." Renard wasn't aiming to kill Hank, but he certainly didn't care if Hank died in the process.

[Dobian]

On 1/10/2017 at 5:47 AM, Prevailing Wind said:

About Diana's "acting" - isn't she really 2 or 3 years old, despite her appearance? Perhaps the actress is attempting to display that. But then, what the hell do I know? I never had kids. What do 3 year olds act like?

A three year old would have tried to flush the voodoo doll down the toilet because she wanted to see if it could swim, which would make for a far more entertaining death scene as we watch the victim start spinning around while glubbing up water.

I know this is the final season and a short one so the whole thing is just going to be the ongoing main plot arc, which is sad because the show isn't about grimms and wesen anymore, it's just about Renard and a big conspiracy that no one cares about.  I miss the old show with all the lore, discovering new wesen every week, and that cool trailer with all its toys and gadgets.  That's when Grimm shined.  Now it's just bad soap opera shoved into a ridiculous world domination plot where they throw in every bad trope they can think of.  Including the worst one of all, a kid with god powers.  Writers:  everyone HATES kids with god powers, why don't you get that?

[Darklazr]

2 hours ago, withanaich said:

I believe the way it happened was that Renard basically told Adalind, "Do whatever you have to in order to compromise Hank so that Nick will hand over the key," Adalind came up with magical rape (because that's how Adalind rolls), and Renard was like, "Make it so." Renard wasn't aiming to kill Hank, but he certainly didn't care if Hank died in the process.

Hank was obsessed with Adalind due to the cookies and Renard pulled in Catherine to make sure that her daughter did not go off script.  But, Adalind went off script and slept with Hank and then taunted Nick about his partner's death if he did not hand over Marie's key.   Why would Nick hand over Marie's key if Hank was already dead?

2 hours ago, Dobian said:

A three year old would have tried to flush the voodoo doll down the toilet because she wanted to see if it could swim, which would make for a far more entertaining death scene as we watch the victim start spinning around while glubbing up water.

I know this is the final season and a short one so the whole thing is just going to be the ongoing main plot arc, which is sad because the show isn't about grimms and wesen anymore, it's just about Renard and a big conspiracy that no one cares about.  I miss the old show with all the lore, discovering new wesen every week, and that cool trailer with all its toys and gadgets.  That's when Grimm shined.  Now it's just bad soap opera shoved into a ridiculous world domination plot where they throw in every bad trope they can think of.  Including the worst one of all, a kid with god powers.  Writers:  everyone HATES kids with god powers, why don't you get that?

This!  I, too, miss the bolded and hate that the show was turned into baby drama and stupid powerful snowflakes.  

The lead on the show has been reduced to playing fourth and fifth fiddle!

[withanaich]

21 minutes ago, Darklazr said:

Hank was obsessed with Adalind due to the cookies and Renard pulled in Catherine to make sure that her daughter did not go off script.  But, Adalind went off script and slept with Hank and then taunted Nick about his partner's death if he did not hand over Marie's key.   Why would Nick hand over Marie's key if Hank was already dead?

Of course, Renard didn't want Hank to die before Adalind got her hands on the key. (And I was under the impression that Renard called in Catherine because Adalind wasn't getting results quickly enough, not because she was going off script.) I'm sure Renard valued Hank as a good cop, and would rather that an asset like that not die. But if Adalind got the key and Nick didn't get to Hank in time and he died anyway? I don't think Renard would have been wringing his hands, at least not after giving Adalind a dressing down. Maybe Renard didn't specifically tell Adalind to make sure to sleep with Hank and put him in a coma, but the whole point of making Hank obsessed was so that Adalind could get close enough to him to endanger him and push Nick into giving up the key. So if the plan involved hexenbiests putting Hank in very real danger, his health and safety was obviously not paramount to Renard. 

It's a dumb plan, anyway, when you really think about it. Why not bypass Hank altogether, and try to get Nick obsessed with Adalind? Why not get him into a compromising position with Adalind (or hell, killing off some Wesen) and take photos to blackmail him into giving up the key? Why not have a third party kidnap Juliette and ransom the key? Why not just knock Nick out (with magic, human drugs, or a crowbar) and take the key? 

[Dobian]

1 hour ago, withanaich said:

It's a dumb plan, anyway, when you really think about it. Why not bypass Hank altogether, and try to get Nick obsessed with Adalind? Why not get him into a compromising position with Adalind (or hell, killing off some Wesen) and take photos to blackmail him into giving up the key? Why not have a third party kidnap Juliette and ransom the key? Why not just knock Nick out (with magic, human drugs, or a crowbar) and take the key? 

Because that would make too much sense, the plot would be resolved in a single episode, and the villains would win.  When you think about it, in most shows with big conspiracy plots the only reason the good guys win is because the bad guys do everything in such a convoluted and ass-backwards way.

[withanaich]

The villains don't have to win just because their plan is more simple. There are always things that can throw a wrench in their plans. It's the writers' job to figure that out, instead of making things so convoluted that they can never be resolved. And even when one plan/storyline is resolved, there are ways to keep the overall plot going. That's where the mythology of Grimm would come into play, where each week a smaller mystery gets solved, and over time, the larger mythos is revealed in bits and pieces. I think someone else mentioned that they could have had Nick finding one key per season. But the writers, unfortunately, never thought that far ahead. Not only did we get an unsatisfying, rushed reveal for the "What Do The Keys Open?" question (where they don't even use the damn keys, they just break the box open), now they have the nerve to create another mystery at the 11th hour with this whole "What Are The Symbols on The Cloth?" mess.

[Darklazr]

5 hours ago, withanaich said:

Of course, Renard didn't want Hank to die before Adalind got her hands on the key. (And I was under the impression that Renard called in Catherine because Adalind wasn't getting results quickly enough, not because she was going off script.) I'm sure Renard valued Hank as a good cop, and would rather that an asset like that not die. But if Adalind got the key and Nick didn't get to Hank in time and he died anyway? I don't think Renard would have been wringing his hands, at least not after giving Adalind a dressing down. Maybe Renard didn't specifically tell Adalind to make sure to sleep with Hank and put him in a coma, but the whole point of making Hank obsessed was so that Adalind could get close enough to him to endanger him and push Nick into giving up the key. So if the plan involved hexenbiests putting Hank in very real danger, his health and safety was obviously not paramount to Renard. 

It's a dumb plan, anyway, when you really think about it. Why not bypass Hank altogether, and try to get Nick obsessed with Adalind? Why not get him into a compromising position with Adalind (or hell, killing off some Wesen) and take photos to blackmail him into giving up the key? Why not have a third party kidnap Juliette and ransom the key? Why not just knock Nick out (with magic, human drugs, or a crowbar) and take the key? 

No, Renard met with Catherine because Adalind had a mind of her own and he wanted the plans to go off without a hitch.  Catherine asked Renard if her debt would be paid off (we never heard what kind of debt!) and that is why she went over to Adalind's apartment to discuss what she was working on.  We have the scene with an obsessed Hank sitting outside of Adalind's apartment.

I agree the entire plot with Hank was dumb, AF.  However, Nick knew Adalind was a hexenbiest and he was furious that she tried to kill Marie.

[theatremouse]

On 1/10/2017 at 0:10 PM, tpel said:

Oddly, the acting for Diana kind of works for me. She is chronologically 2 or 3 years old, but her brain and body have developed much faster than normal. So, she has the intellect and language development of a much older child, but the emotional maturity of a toddler/preschooler. I remember when one of my godchildren was young, her parents commenting that they were briefly worried that she might be a sociopath. She's now a wonderful, empathetic tween, and her parents were never seriously worried, but I knew what they meant: there is that phase where the whole world revolves around the child's wants, which can be overwhelmingly important to her, and the impact of her actions on others is just not on her radar. That's where Diana is.

I don't think anything onscreen ever confirmed for sure that she was magic-fast-aging as opposed to just TV-show-aged-up-casting. I think she's just a super wooden child actress, possibly combined with having been directed to act like children of the corn; problem is she's so stiff it's hard to tell where intentional-creepy-monotone begins and bad-actor-barely-remembering-lines monotone ends.

[TaurusRose]

I know this show is over and done with, but I'm watching it on Prime after bailing way back after season one. Anyways, I've read most of the posts covering the previous seasons and the thing that has annoyed me most is the constant teeth gnashing and wailing over the supposed rape of Nick by Adalind.  I find it most obnoxious and demeans the very use of the word in relation to the real crime.  This is a show about magical creatures--wesens, Grimms, hexenbiests, and whatnot.  A character who transforms herself into someone else through the use of a spell to rob another character of his supernatural abilities isn't a good thing, but I would hardly classify it as rape.  Adalind tricked Nick into sleeping with her because he thought she was Juliette.  Nick was in full consensual mode at the time.  Nick did not consider himself a victim when the truth was discovered and neither did anyone else.  I just hate it when real life crusades get dragged into the realm of fantasy.  That's my two cents.  

[SmithW6079]

On 6/19/2018 at 9:39 PM, taurusrose said:

I know this show is over and done with, but I'm watching it on Prime after bailing way back after season one. Anyways, I've read most of the posts covering the previous seasons and the thing that has annoyed me most is the constant teeth gnashing and wailing over the supposed rape of Nick by Adalind.  I find it most obnoxious and demeans the very use of the word in relation to the real crime.  This is a show about magical creatures--wesens, Grimms, hexenbiests, and whatnot.  A character who transforms herself into someone else through the use of a spell to rob another character of his supernatural abilities isn't a good thing, but I would hardly classify it as rape.  Adalind tricked Nick into sleeping with her because he thought she was Juliette.  Nick was in full consensual mode at the time.  Nick did not consider himself a victim when the truth was discovered and neither did anyone else.  I just hate it when real life crusades get dragged into the realm of fantasy.  That's my two cents.  

Thank you.

[kathyk24]

On ‎1‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 8:33 PM, theatremouse said:

I don't think anything onscreen ever confirmed for sure that she was magic-fast-aging as opposed to just TV-show-aged-up-casting. I think she's just a super wooden child actress, possibly combined with having been directed to act like children of the corn; problem is she's so stiff it's hard to tell where intentional-creepy-monotone begins and bad-actor-barely-remembering-lines monotone ends.

I disagree Adalind tricked Nick into having sex, Nick thought he was sleeping with his girlfriend not someone he hated. Rape doesn't have to be violent in order to be considered rape.

[TaurusRose]

You can disagree all you want and I understand the definitions of rape; however, screaming about rape in the context of this show is ridiculous IN MY OPINION.

[Hazza]

Seriously I understand not liking Adalind but a lot of you posters are beyond bias defending Renard at the every point yet blaming  Adalind for everything. Remind me again who sent Adalind after Aunt Marie and Hank in the first place, oh yes Renard. Yes also Renard knew she was Nicks aunt, that was the whole point of killing Marie so that she couldn’t influence Nick much about  being a Grimm as he wished  for Nick to be his Grimm and didn’t want Nick to get the key .  Renard even admits to kelly in season 3 he tried to have her sister killed.

 

Bears Will Be Bears He met with Adalind Schade and told her to send more people to kill Marie. He then removed the police guards protecting Marie who he difenitly know at that point was Nicks aunt  because he was talking to Nick about his aunts safety after he falsely told Nick he was forced  to remove the guards by law. When in reality he was removing them so his assassins  could finish what Adalind had failed to do kill Nicks aunt. 

In Last Grimm Standing Renard talks to Leo Taymor the leader of the Löwen Games as if they had known each other in times long past. Renard is angry that Taymor has been using unsanctioned kidnapped Wesen to use for his gladiatorial fights. meaning he sanctions people to die in the games and he gets a cut of the profits. He clearly had a number of criminal rackets going throughout the city which is probably why he murderd Taymor after he gianed too much attention from the police he wanted to protect his other rackets so had Taymor taken out.

Island of Dreams Renard asks how it has been going with Hank. Adalind says Hank is not interested in her. Renard hands over a vial of blood saying Hank just had his physical. Renard tells Adalind to do whatever it takes to make Hank like her. Knowing what ever it takes would kill Hank. He literally whores Adalind out to Hank in order to get the key he clearly knows what spell Adalind is planning as he gives her the blood. This is a guy who is piad to run the police department and look after his officers and dectivies yet he’s plotting deadly schemes agianst them to get himself more power. 

In Love sick we find out the reason Adalind is doing all this stuff for Renard is because of a debt her mother owes to Renard and beacuse of the affection she has for Renard . Renards sleeping with Adalind and Catherine at the same time , then when Adalind loses her powers They both abandon Adalind with Renard telling her she is now useless to him. 

There is even a deleted scene in season 1 of Renard meeting with the scumbag ogre that tried to kill Hank and during the meeting it’s hinted he done jobs for Renard in the past. Though he warns him to leave Hank alone it’s suggested the two worked togther in the past.

 

He killed his own cousin and had his own brother killed, yes they were his enemies however I don’t remember Adalind ever harming her own family despite having an evil useless mother who throw her away like trash.

 

Renard willingly went along with Black Claw even after learning they murdered an innocent Andrew Dixon in order to put Renard in his place. He knew BC fixed the election in his favor and went along with that and proudly said to Nick him and BC were going to make a more violent and primitive world and that all wesen that don’t join them would  die.

 

Sasah Roiz even admitted himself in several  interviews Renard cares for power above all else.

 

Adalind has done a lot of terrible things during the show particularly in the first 3 seasons, she was truly an evil piece of crap but the spell/ Juliette turning Hexenbiest situation is every bit the scobbies including Nick and Juliette’s  fault as it is Adalinds. They kidnapped a child  form her mother and lied to child’s mother about the kidnapping forcing her to go to Viktor in the first place. Yes sleeping with Nick by deceit to take his powers was deeply wrong and immoral how ever equally immoral was the kidnapping that caused it, there are no innocents in this situation.

The difference between Renard and Adalind, Adalind really changed for the better whereas Renard was always just a devious snake in the grass waiting to strke the second he got the sight of power.

My ideal ending to the series would have been Renards head in a box Kelly Burkhardt style, him finally paying for all the crap he got away with throughout the series.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Hazza

[TaurusRose]

Everytime Adalind did something to hurt Nick, it was done in retaliation for something he and his friends did to her.  Nick took her powers, she got even by going after Juliette.  Nick and company decided they knew what was best for Adalind's baby and took the child from her mother, thereby creating the situation where Adalind stole Nick's Grimm because she thought that she'd get Diana back.   I agree there is plenty of blame to go around and none of them are innocent, but bashing Adalind and blaming her solely for the events that created hexenbiest Juliette for example is ridiculous and ignores a lot of what went on.  And while, I'm talking about this, Rosalee pissed me off a couple of times during seasons 5 and 6.  I know she and Monroe are fan darlings, but she was two-faced more than once where Adalind was concerned, and Monroe was just simple minded when he kept making comments about Nick and Eve when it was clear that Nick was with Adalind by choice and whatever history he had with Juliette was just that...HISTORY.

[kathyk24]

1 hour ago, taurusrose said:

Everytime Adalind did something to hurt Nick, it was done in retaliation for something he and his friends did to her.  Nick took her powers, she got even by going after Juliette.  Nick and company decided they knew what was best for Adalind's baby and took the child from her mother, thereby creating the situation where Adalind stole Nick's Grimm because she thought that she'd get Diana back.   I agree there is plenty of blame to go around and none of them are innocent, but bashing Adalind and blaming her solely for the events that created hexenbiest Juliette for example is ridiculous and ignores a lot of what went on.  And while, I'm talking about this, Rosalee pissed me off a couple of times during seasons 5 and 6.  I know she and Monroe are fan darlings, but she was two-faced more than once where Adalind was concerned, and Monroe was just simple minded when he kept making comments about Nick and Eve when it was clear that Nick was with Adalind by choice and whatever history he had with Juliette was just that...HISTORY.

You are forgetting that Adalind tried to kill Hank and would have succeeded if Monroe and Rosalee hadn't intervened.