S06.E10: Wish You Were Here

[Rumsy4]

6 minutes ago, Camera One said:

If it was all meant to be comical, then it needed to be consistent.  Why was Snowing dying supposed to be funny, but Henry threatening to kill Regina, and Regina refusing to lift a finger/Emma wanting to save Henry from being tainted by murder, supposed to be ultra dramatic and significant?  Shouldn't Regina and Emma have thrown a sword through Henry and then laughed about how fake he was?

Exactly. The writers made a mockery of Snowing, but were careful not to disrespect everything Regina holds dear (Henry and Robin). 

[TheGreenKnight]

The emotions are created by Regina, just like how she latched on to Robin because real!Robin is dead. Wish!Robin and Wish!Henry are just as fake as Wish!Snowing, only Regina's reaction to them is different.

Edited January 22, 2017 by TheGreenKnight

[Mari]

Plus, it helps if the humor is actually humorous.

[tennisgurl]

The Wish Verse is the show it a nutshell. It seriously is all about Regina and how Regina sees the world. Yeah, they tried to say that its the Evil Queens emotions that affected the world, but come on. The Evil Queen and Regina are the same damn person, and everyone knows it. For an episode that they played up as a big Emma episode, it was clearly a Regina episode in disguise. We learned nothing about any character except Regina. It was why we hardly saw anyone Regina really has no strong feelings about. Its why Snowing is old, but Robin is still young and hot.  I`m almost surprised we never saw Graham, another guy she used to be into, or got some kind of reference. He would probably be alive, right? Oh, but I forgot, that might lead to awkward questions from Emma, especially if he is still in...service *ewwwwww* to the Evil Queen or something. Oh, did perfect best hero/person ever Regina forget to mention to her BFF Emma that she repeatedly mentally and physically raped and then eventually murdered the man who Emma had strong feelings for, and was a generally decent person? Whoops!

I`m sorry, I know I keep beating that dead horse, and the show could give less than zero fucks about any of Regina's victims, but Evil Queen was even acting creepy towards Aladdin when he was her genie just this season! And, again, Regina and Evil Queen are the same freaking person! I wouldn't call Regina a sexual predator and a murderer so often if the show didn't remind us every 15 seconds, while also somehow ignoring and justifying her crimes!

[Mari]

Well, and if the logic is that Regina can easily brush off killing Snow and David, because they're not real, but she can't see harm come to Henry or walk away from Robin, what does that say about how Regina feels about Snow and David?

Because they've been shoving the Regina/Snow friendship down our throats for a long time now, and the message I get from that logic is "Regina doesn't give a fig newton--or any other type of newton--for Snow."

[superloislane]

42 minutes ago, Mari said:

Because they've been shoving the Regina/Snow friendship down our throats for a long time now, and the message I get from that logic is "Regina doesn't give a fig newton--or any other type of newton--for Snow."

Especially when you remember that her EQ side specifically targeted Snow AGAIN and cursed her so she'll never be with her husband. This and the murder in the Wish World makes that relationship so strange since they have Snow spend more time with Regina and care more about her than anyone. 

[Curio]

I think I finally found the best way to describe this episode:

Alternative Facts.

[KingOfHearts]

45 minutes ago, Curio said:

I think I finally found the best way to describe this episode:

Alternative Facts.

Adam's twitter is full of them.

[Shanna Marie]

I'm rewatching this in preparation for the new one, since I forgot a lot of what happened. And wow, this is, like, aggressively bad. It's especially bad after rewatching Wonderland, since they totally changed the rules of the way genies work. For one thing, there's the bit that was a major plot point in Wonderland about how a genie was stuck with a master until the three wishes had been made, so the Evil Queen shouldn't have been able to get the Aladdin genie from Jasmine, and David shouldn't have been able to make a wish until one of the Reginas had made one more wish. Then there's the way the wish that created the wishverse was granted. It seems more likely that instead of creating an entire other world, Emma just suddenly wouldn't be the Savior anymore. And the bit about the Evil Queen making a wish for Emma to avoid the wish backlash doesn't work. The negative part of the wish tends to come back on the wisher, not on a person being wished on in order to hurt them. It seems more fitting that the "be careful what you wish for" would have hit the Evil Queen, not Emma.

And then we have Henry being a jerk even in the alternate reality, missing his own mother's birthday party because he's too busy getting ready to be turned into a knight/hero.

I hadn't watched any of this show during the hiatus, and I have to say that unless subsequent episodes are a lot better, I may not be able to force myself to keep watching. It's like looking back at an old yearbook and finding the photo of your old crush and thinking, "Wait, I was crazy about him?" Oh, wait, there's a closeup of Hook. I remember one thing I liked. He's as cute as I remembered.

[Camera One]

16 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

And then we have Henry being a jerk even in the alternate reality, missing his own mother's birthday party because he's too busy getting ready to be turned into a knight/hero.

Of course Henry would be a jerk in this universe, because he didn't have Mother of the Year to raise him.   He only had those horrible old people who deserved to die since they gave their daughter Dependent Personality Disorder.

[KingOfHearts]

I considered rewatching this episode, but I decided to watch the ending scene(s) instead. The Wish Realm is so pointless and unamusing that going through the whole thing would be a waste of time. The characters will probably forget it even exists soon, so why bother?

[Camera One]

I already rewatched it with my friend a few months ago and I'm not going for thirds.  The Wish Realm was an insult to Snowing and Emma, but the *really* bad writing was in Storybrooke.  It was basically a game of Hot Potato with the Genie's Lamp with a complete disregard for the dangers of making wishes.  

[Rumsy4]

46 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

And the bit about the Evil Queen making a wish for Emma to avoid the wish backlash doesn't work. The negative part of the wish tends to come back on the wisher, not on a person being wished on in order to hurt them. It seems more fitting that the "be careful what you wish for" would have hit the Evil Queen, not Emma.

Exactly. The only reason the backlash fell on Emma was becasue of the REC, and A&E's wish to punish Emma for being human.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Curio]

50 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

wow, this is, like, aggressively bad.

 

This should be the large quote on the OUAT poster at Comic-Con. Instead of a movie critic quote that says "Mesmerizing!" or "4 Stars!", it will just say, "Wow, this is, like, aggressively bad."

Edited March 6, 2017 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

When you look up the lyrics to the Pink Floyd song, "Wish You Were Here", and think of this episode, it sounds like a Swan Queen love song.

[Curio]

Syd Barrett would beg to differ.

[Camera One]

Lyric interpretation time

Quote

So, so you think you can tell
Heaven from hell

No, they both look like Storybrooke.

Quote

Blue skies from pain
Can you tell a green field
From a cold steel rail?
A smile from a veil?
Do you think you can tell?

Of course not.  We can't even tell the difference between murderer and friend.

Quote

Did they get you to trade
Your heroes for ghosts?

Done.  Killed that old Snowing.

Quote

Hot ashes for trees?
Hot air for a cool breeze?

Done.  

Spoiler

August

just spewed out a whole bunch of hot air.

Quote

Cold comfort for change?

Can't say.

Quote

And did you exchange
A walk on part in the war

Yes, Emma has a walk-on part to be stabbed by Gideon if she ever comes back to Storybrooke.

Quote

For a lead role in a cage?

Yes, our leading lady is now a snake in a cage.

Quote

I walked on and 
How I wish, how I wish you were here
We're just two lost souls

Yes, Emma and Regina are so similar.

Quote

Swimming in a fish bowl

Yes, we love Ariel.

Quote

Year after year
Running over the same old ground

Yes, retreading old storylines.

Quote

And how we found
The same old fears

Yes, bringing Robin back.

Quote

Wish you were here

Episode title for 6x10 because the word "wish" is in the title.
 

Edited March 15, 2017 by Camera One

[InsertWordHere]

@Camera One You are on a roll lately. 

4 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Swimming in a fish bowl

Aha! End of the series hint right there! We're getting a St. Elsewhere finale. That's why they mentioned the town in the snowglobe in the Season 5 finale. They've all been living in a snowglobe this whole time! Or a fishbowl. Er, the Enchanted Forest is the fish bowl and Storybrooke is the snowglobe. Or something. 

[Rumsy4]

54 minutes ago, InsertWordHere said:

@Camera One You are on a roll lately. 

Aha! End of the series hint right there! We're getting a St. Elsewhere finale. That's why they mentioned the town in the snowglobe in the Season 5 finale. They've all been living in a snowglobe this whole time! Or a fishbowl. Er, the Enchanted Forest is the fish bowl and Storybrooke is the snowglobe. Or something. 

At this point, I'm starting to think this wouldn't be a bad ending...

[CCTC]

1 hour ago, InsertWordHere said:

@Camera One You are on a roll lately. 

Aha! End of the series hint right there! We're getting a St. Elsewhere finale. That's why they mentioned the town in the snowglobe in the Season 5 finale. They've all been living in a snowglobe this whole time! Or a fishbowl. Er, the Enchanted Forest is the fish bowl and Storybrooke is the snowglobe. Or something. 

Is it possible all the characters are really sea monkeys?

[tri4335]

2 hours ago, InsertWordHere said:

@Camera One You are on a roll lately. 

Aha! End of the series hint right there! We're getting a St. Elsewhere finale. That's why they mentioned the town in the snowglobe in the Season 5 finale. They've all been living in a snowglobe this whole time! Or a fishbowl. Er, the Enchanted Forest is the fish bowl and Storybrooke is the snowglobe. Or something. 

 

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

At this point, I'm starting to think this wouldn't be a bad ending...

A while back, I speculated some thread that the only ending that makes sense now is that Regina is in the insane asylum and the only "real" moments are when we see Nurse Ratchet and the man mopping the floor. That is why she is the most victimized and everything is from her POV.  The other characters are other patients in the asylum with her.

[Shanna Marie]

I know we've discussed the various points at which the shark was truly jumped for this show, but I think this episode may have been the final nail in the coffin, the point of no return. I don't recall when the news was announced, but my headcanon is that this was the episode that made Jennifer Morrison decide she wasn't going to come back when her contract ended. Their depiction of Emma who wasn't a Savior was flat-out insulting.

There are just so many problems with this episode, but the big one in retrospect is the fact of the Wishverse, given the role it played in season 7. Some of the writers tried to play it off as though it wasn't real at all, so Regina didn't really murder the Charmings, after this episode aired, but then in season 7,

Spoiler

Wishverse Hook is so real that he's one of the major characters, and somehow he had a full existence that even intersected with other realms, to the point he fathered and raised a child long before the wish was cast.

They're also entirely inconsistent with their genie lore. They established in Wonderland, which takes place in the same universe, that ownership of the genie doesn't pass until the current owner has made all three wishes. It doesn't matter who has the lamp. Jafar had the lamps and even had Cyrus, but it didn't do him any good until/unless Alice used the three wishes, which she refused to do because that was how she kept Cyrus free all along. That was the main plot of the first half of the series. The Evil Queen shouldn't have been able to make a wish at all because Jasmine should have still had her wishes. Making a wish that someone else get something they wished for, when they weren't making an actual official wish to a genie, should be one of those loophole things you can't do. And they never established how the Evil Queen heard everything. She was just randomly omniscient because. Regina sure could have saved them a lot of trouble over the years with that superpower, which she should have because they're the same person. David was beyond stupid to make such a vague wish as "she gets what she deserves." Wish that she loses her powers. Wish that she's captured in a place she can't escape. Don't make a vague wish and then refuse to use the option to solve your major problem because wishes tend to backfire.

Silly Princess Emma makes no sense. Henry existing in the Wishverse makes no sense, especially not with Idiotfire as his father. Hook just sitting around rather than doing anything at all to find Emma is wildly out of character. If he were in character, he'd have grabbed that lamp and made a rash wish to be with Emma, wherever she was, and landed himself in a heap of trouble.

This episode pretty much makes me sputter incoherently with rage.

[Camera One]

Hello, it's A&E.

18 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I know we've discussed the various points at which the shark was truly jumped for this show

Thank you.  This was indeed an episode which would have made sharks jump out of the water in joy like they did in The Little Mermaid and Finding Nemo.  We just love how our fans use these Disney analogies!

Quote

my headcanon is that this was the episode that made Jennifer Morrison decide she wasn't going to come back when her contract ended.

Actually, everything about this season was planned all along.

Quote

There are just so many problems with this episode, but the big one in retrospect is the fact of the Wishverse, given the role it played in season 7. Some of the writers tried to play it off as though it wasn't real at all, so Regina didn't really murder the Charmings, after this episode aired, but then in season 7,

It's not that hard a concept.  The Wishverse was real and not real at the same time.  As explained on Twitter by Jane, the books on your shelves are real but the characters inside of them are not.  And sometimes the stories inside were based on a true story with a real backstory of someone who had lived, and sometimes, a book character feels so real you will it into life.  If you think about it that way, everything will make sense.

Quote

They're also entirely inconsistent with their genie lore. They established in Wonderland, which takes place in the same universe, that ownership of the genie doesn't pass until the current owner has made all three wishes. It doesn't matter who has the lamp. Jafar had the lamps and even had Cyrus, but it didn't do him any good until/unless Alice used the three wishes, which she refused to do because that was how she kept Cyrus free all along. That was the main plot of the first half of the series. The Evil Queen shouldn't have been able to make a wish at all because Jasmine should have still had her wishes.

This Aladdin lamp was different and special compared to the one we saw in the Wonderland series.  If you watch the movie Aladdin, you will see that Jafar was able to make wishes even though Aladdin hadn't used up his three wishes yet.  We like to draw from a variety of myths and it shows how diverse we are to show two different ways genie lamps can work.

Quote

And they never established how the Evil Queen heard everything. She was just randomly omniscient because. Regina sure could have saved them a lot of trouble over the years with that superpower, which she should have because they're the same person.

The Evil Queen heard everything because she was snooping and listening via car mirror.  Regina couldn't always do that because magic always comes with a price!  And you can see the steep price that the Evil Queen ultimately ended up paying.  She really had it tough compared to the heroes.

Quote

David was beyond stupid to make such a vague wish as "she gets what she deserves." Wish that she loses her powers. Wish that she's captured in a place she can't escape. Don't make a vague wish and then refuse to use the option to solve your major problem because wishes tend to backfire.

It shows our characters are always learning.  We like writing characters that aren't black or white.  As in characters with no grey matter.

Quote

Silly Princess Emma makes no sense. Henry existing in the Wishverse makes no sense

Sometimes fantasy makes no sense!  You just have to take the leap and have a spark of imagination.  To make nonsense make sense - fun!

Quote

This episode pretty much makes me sputter incoherently with rage.

As all TV wrters know, if we make the audience care and feel, it shows that we have succeeded!

Hope that helps!

Love,

A&E

Edited July 27, 2019 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I know we've discussed the various points at which the shark was truly jumped for this show, but I think this episode may have been the final nail in the coffin, the point of no return. I don't recall when the news was announced, but my headcanon is that this was the episode that made Jennifer Morrison decide she wasn't going to come back when her contract ended. Their depiction of Emma who wasn't a Savior was flat-out insulting.

It's sad because I don't think the Wish Realm was a bad idea on its own. Fans asked for years to see a world where the curse never happened and S7 actually made good use of what we got. The problem was it wasn't actually a curse-never-happened AU - it was a completely arbitrary thing the writers never intended to revisit or explain. It's nothing more than a joke to teach Emma a lesson in... something she didn't need to learn. I'm not even sure what she was supposed to get from this. She had already accepted the role of the Savior. Her experiences here don't change things like her time travel adventure in S3 did. 

I actually enjoy seeing alternate versions of the characters, but they didn't have to be lame. I'm still not sure what the writers were trying to say here. Everyone would be worse off if Regina didn't cast the Curse? Really? It would make so much more sense thematically if it were a world without Emma, where everything's crap because there's no Savior. The Curse is still happening in Storybrooke, Henry was never born, etc.

It's not even Emma's wish. It's the Evil Queen's. But it makes no sense for Regina to be the protagonist here.

[Camera One]

4 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

It's sad because I don't think the Wish Realm was a bad idea on its own. Fans asked for years to see a world where the curse never happened and S7 actually made good use of what we got. The problem was it wasn't actually a curse-never-happened AU - it was a completely arbitrary thing the writers never intended to revisit or explain.

It was a good concept.  Heck ("Lost" spoiler below):
 

Spoiler

They could have done an entire Season 6's worth of flash-sideways to a "What If" world where Regina was captured and the Curse never happened.  That was seriously what I had expected them to do in the final season.  It would have been great for call-backs and it could have allowed exploration of different facets of the characters.

Quote

It's nothing more than a joke to teach Emma a lesson in... something she didn't need to learn. I'm not even sure what she was supposed to get from this. She had already accepted the role of the Savior. Her experiences here don't change things like her time travel adventure in S3 did. 

I think that was the key problem with this show.  The Writers weren't coming up with plots that would develop the characters in any way.  It was solely plot and novelty based.

Quote

 Everyone would be worse off if Regina didn't cast the Curse? Really? 

Now, this I would have expected.  Regina and Rumple ultimately did everyone a favor and that's how everyone ended up with their happy endings, you know.

[KingOfHearts]

39 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Now, this I would have expected.  Regina and Rumple ultimately did everyone a favor and that's how everyone ended up with their happy endings, you know.

Hey! No spoilers. 😉

[legaleagle53]

7 hours ago, Camera One said:

It was a good concept.  Heck ("Lost" spoiler below):
 

  Hide contents

They could have done an entire Season 6's worth of flash-sideways to a "What If" world where Regina was captured and the Curse never happened.  That was seriously what I had expected them to do in the final season.  It would have been great for call-backs and it could have allowed exploration of different facets of the characters.

I think that was the key problem with this show.  The Writers weren't coming up with plots that would develop the characters in any way.  It was solely plot and novelty based.

Now, this I would have expected.  Regina and Rumple ultimately did everyone a favor and that's how everyone ended up with their happy endings, you know.

Didn't Ruby once say that, in fact? She and Dr. Whale were commiserating over some of their failures in their respective home lands: her killing and eating her boyfriend while she was in werewolf form and his being unable to save his brother's life. Ruby said that those were things that they would both be glad to forget and that Regina may have thought she was punishing them by stripping them of their memories and their identities, but she really did them a favor by doing so.

Edited July 28, 2019 by legaleagle53

[KAOS Agent]

24 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

Ruby said that those were things that they would both be glad to forget and that Regina may have thought she was punishing them by stripping them of their memories and their identities, but she really did them a favor by doing so.

This was something that I thought would have made for interesting exploration, but at least for Ruby, I'd say the negatives outweighed the positives. Yes, bad memories were removed, but so was her close relationship with her grandmother and she became the town slut. The show backed off on what that meant later on as they were trying to pretend the curse wasn't so bad, but the reality is that during the curse she definitely would have slept around. Not cool at all.

Whale wasn't really punished during the curse because he didn't have any loved ones left to be separated from and seemed to live a pretty good life as the town doctor. Not remembering his brother and how he died was probably a good thing. Although we don't know what memories he was given, so maybe it wasn't really any better.

I hated Emma basically thanking Regina for the curse because otherwise she'd be a brainless twit. Yes, it was totally a wonderful thing that Emma was a starving, abused child who had no love or support as a young child. Living under an overpass burning a book to keep warm at the age of seven is so much better than the much loved Emma seen here because this Emma is weak and Snowing would have been terrible parents. It's such an awful message that's repeated so much through TV/movies. The hero can only be badass if they are lonely and bitter and experienced trauma. Well-adjusted people who grew up in a loving home and have a healthy relationship with a significant other are weak and boring.

[andromeda331]

9 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

This was something that I thought would have made for interesting exploration, but at least for Ruby, I'd say the negatives outweighed the positives. Yes, bad memories were removed, but so was her close relationship with her grandmother and she became the town slut. The show backed off on what that meant later on as they were trying to pretend the curse wasn't so bad, but the reality is that during the curse she definitely would have slept around. Not cool at all.

Whale wasn't really punished during the curse because he didn't have any loved ones left to be separated from and seemed to live a pretty good life as the town doctor. Not remembering his brother and how he died was probably a good thing. Although we don't know what memories he was given, so maybe it wasn't really any better.

I hated Emma basically thanking Regina for the curse because otherwise she'd be a brainless twit. Yes, it was totally a wonderful thing that Emma was a starving, abused child who had no love or support as a young child. Living under an overpass burning a book to keep warm at the age of seven is so much better than the much loved Emma seen here because this Emma is weak and Snowing would have been terrible parents. It's such an awful message that's repeated so much through TV/movies. The hero can only be badass if they are lonely and bitter and experienced trauma. Well-adjusted people who grew up in a loving home and have a healthy relationship with a significant other are weak and boring.

I thought that would have been interesting to explore too. There would some people before the Curse living miserable lives the Curse would be doing a favor. They easily could have tied that into fairytale lands vs our world had they bothered to do that. They now all had homes, electricity, and could get food at the store. Were there anyone else from the other lands that actually found they preferred our world? Animals happy to be humans? Maybe easier to find jobs and support themselves and/or family? Of course how many really prefer being able to vote and elect their officials instead of inherited royalty? Maybe a lot are both. I can see Ruby being happy to forget she murdered her boyfriend and Granny forgetting that she was way wrong in not telling Ruby she was a wolf. Whale wanting to forget what he did to his brother and other people wanting to forget stuff. Not that they'd ever go there but Rumple wanting to forget his bad deeds, how much he was hated, why Bae left and how he treated Belle in the past. Ditto for Regina. They really could have explored that with every character. Charming who was raised on a farm and masquerade as a prince which one did he really prefer? Any of the rulers or princesses like having options to just being a princess. Abigail getting into law school was amazing and something they could have explored. Liking land without magic considering how much magic destroyed so many lives. It would have been really fun to explore all of that. 

[Camera One]

11 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

The show backed off on what that meant later on as they were trying to pretend the curse wasn't so bad

The show really wanted to have it both ways.  The Curse was supposed to be the Worst Thing Ever.  Regina also randomly gave certain people really bad scenarios to live through while others seemingly got off scot-free.  Like she should technically have hated Whale for deceiving him.  Meanwhile, Regina hardly knew Ashley but gave her a horribly difficult life.  

To top it off, the initial assumption that the Enchanted Forest was full of rainbows and sunshine was totally inaccurate.  As Red said, their lives there were often incredibly painful.

And then in this Wish Realm episode, just because Regina and Rumple were neutralized, everything in the kingdom was hunky dory?  What about all the other random villains and evils?  It was impossible that Emma would have grown up to become so weak and naive, not if she lost a husband and her parents had to fight a war to defeat Regina.  

What about Cora, who would still have sought power for Regina and herself?  What about Peter Pan and the prophesy to take Henry?  What about Maleficent anger over the eggnapping?  What about Ingrid wanting to find her third sister?   

Quote

50 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

They easily could have tied that into fairytale lands vs our world had they bothered to do that. They now all had homes, electricity, and could get food at the store. Were there anyone else from the other lands that actually found they preferred our world? Animals happy to be humans? Maybe easier to find jobs and support themselves and/or family? Of course how many really prefer being able to vote and elect their officials instead of inherited royalty? Maybe a lot are both.

This was another missed opportunity.  I was disappointed they didn't bother exploring this in 2B when there was a debate about whether to stay in Storybrooke or go back to the Enchanted Forest.  There should have been two factions in town and even the heroes would be split.  Since they never dealt with it, they could also have finally explored it in Season 6. 

Edited July 28, 2019 by Camera One

[andromeda331]

20 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The show really wanted to have it both ways.  The Curse was supposed to be the Worst Thing Ever.  Regina also randomly gave certain people really bad scenarios to live through while others seemingly got off scot-free.  Like she should technically have hated Whale for deceiving him.  Meanwhile, Regina hardly knew Ashley but gave her a horribly difficult life.  

To top it off, the initial assumption that the Enchanted Forest was full of rainbows and sunshine was totally inaccurate.  As Red said, their lives there were often incredibly painful.

And then in this Wish Realm episode, just because Regina and Rumple were neutralized, everything in the kingdom was hunky dory?  What about all the other random villains and evils?  It was impossible that Emma would have grown up to become so weak and naive, not if she lost a husband and her parents had to fight a war to defeat Regina.  

What about Cora, who would still have sought power for Regina and herself?  What about Peter Pan and the prophesy to take Henry?  What about Maleficent anger over the eggnapping?  What about Ingrid wanting to find her third sister?   

This was another missed opportunity.  I was disappointed they didn't bother exploring this in 2B when there was a debate about whether to stay in Storybrooke or go back to the Enchanted Forest.  There should have been two factions in town and even the heroes would be split.  Since they never dealt with it, they could also have finally explored it in Season 6. 

That would have been really great. Season two would have been perfect. Season six if we had to wait. I can see the two factions even between Charming and Snow. Snow had loving parents who raised her well and taught her to be a good ruler that they seemed to be. Charming on the other hand was raised on poor farm and only ended up being a prince because the twin he didn't know about died and to support his mother, and later only remained because George threatened to kill his mother. He didn't chose it willingly. He's probably seen what he could do as a ruler and how much he can really help but also saw what it was like to be a poor farmer and how much royalty messed up and destroyed his family and also how little royalty helped people like his family. Snow probably did and does see the Enchanted Kingdom as a great place. So many people did but we could see how it really wasn't that great of a place. There were a lot of hardships. Even without the magical users it was hard for a lot of people. That should have been the conflict to with Emma. When Snow and Charming show her the magic beans that will take them back home for good Emma clearly does not want to go. She's clearly not happy about that. Which makes sense she's didn't grow up there and didn't really enjoy it when she and Snow were there and probably also from all the stories she's heard doesn't make it sound like a great place for her to live. Her "what about ogres and destruction". Emma would definitely be in  the want to stay in our world while Snow would be in the going back, Charming really should have been on the fence since he's been in both places. Also for the ones that wanted to go back. You'd think some of them would want to bring back ideas from our world. Votes and elections, figuring out how to bring electricity and grocery stores maybe organizing hunters, butchers and others into putting together the first EF grocery store, King Soopers? Queen Soopers? Oh no wait it would totally be Granny's Grocers. She would totally be the one trying do that. Belle if she went back and was sane starting a library, maybe college/university and teaching. 

Edited July 28, 2019 by andromeda331

[Shanna Marie]

I think the big problem with this episode is the same problem they had with their previous AU (the "heroes and villains" world) -- it's hard to do a good AU when the prime universe isn't well defined and when the point of departure between worlds is so vague.

In this case, the point of difference is supposed to be that this is the world where Emma never becomes the Savior. But since they've never really defined what a Savior is or how someone becomes one, that makes it hard for them to build the AU. Is Emma the Savior because her DNA was baked into the curse as a backdoor that could break it? Is it because she's a child of True Love? Is it like the Slayer, where there's one born in every generation, destined to fight evil in general (before getting a case of the shakes that renders them useless, and then dying young)? It's hard to say, since the show has given us every one of these reasons, at one time or another.

For this episode, they seem to be going back to the curse explanation, since the difference between universes is that Regina never cast the curse, and therefore Emma never became a Savior. But that doesn't really track since there are too many inconsistencies. This isn't an honest depiction of a world in which Regina was prevented from casting the curse. For one thing, Stealthy is there, but he died long before Snow even went to war with Regina and George, before the apple, before Snow started to get together with Charming. The curse not being cast wouldn't mean he was still alive. Rumple was the force behind the curse, and we learned in season 2 that he had squid ink in his cell, so he could have escaped at any time. Was he okay with the curse not being cast? What about Wish Zelena? Zelena's greatest desire was to be chosen to cast the curse. If Regina was stripped of her powers and unable to cast the curse, Zelena would have been there in a green streak, ready to take on the job and claiming that after Rumple rejected her, she didn't love him most anymore and she's ready to rip the heart out of her favorite flying monkey. About the only reason Rumple would have given up on having the curse cast would have been if he was reunited with Bae, but if Bae came back around the time the curse would have been cast, then that means he was over 30 when teen Emma got pregnant, so it's even creepier than in the prime universe. Whenever he showed up, Bae was alive and in that world about fourteen years ago, so Rumple wouldn't have given up and resigned himself to rotting in that cell until after he'd been there about a decade.

The Charmings seemed to be pretty fertile, getting pregnant on their honeymoon and then again almost the moment they decided to try for another baby, so would Emma really have been their only child in a world without birth control? If Princess Emma was so sheltered as to be an innocent nitwit, would she have become pregnant as a teen? Would she have even met someone like Nealfire? Would her parents have been at all keen to have their daughter married to the Dark One's son? If she wasn't married to him, in that world I can't imagine them having a giant hero portrait of him. Realistically, based on what we know of the Charmings, Neal, and Emma, there would have been a gaggle of siblings (maybe one of them could have been "played" by Henry, so he'd still have a role in the AU), Emma would have been taught to sword fight and use a bow, Nealfire would still be off in our world because he was staying as far away as possible from his father, Henry wouldn't exist, and Rumple would have busted out of that cell when it turned out his curse wouldn't be cast (maybe he killed Zelena in frustration, since the pivot point of this world is that the curse isn't cast, so we can't have Zelena swooping in to cast it, unless she tries and fails and Rumple kills her).

If Emma is the Savior because she's a True Love child, then she should still be the Savior. If it's a general-purpose Slayer-like thing, then the curse not being cast would have nothing to do with it. Regina being neutralized doesn't mean there are no more villains for the Savior to fight. There's Rumple, Maleficent is still out there (did the eggnapping still happen?), Shady Arthur is in the next kingdom over, Zelena's still out there (maybe), and there's probably the Black Fairy.

As usual, it's a mess of "wouldn't it be cool/funny" without any rhyme or reason, which makes it really dissatisfying.

[tennisgurl]

God, its THIS fucking episode. Something I often used to want as a fan (AU where the dark curse never happened) but was horrified when I saw what they actually did. It not only sucks as an episode, raises a million questions about the nature of this universe, and is morally a massive clusterfuck, its just so lazy. 

Like, why is Henry even named Henry in this universe? He was named Henry after Regina's dad, does Charming just randomly have a cousin named Henry he decided to name him after or something? How the hell did Emma meet Neal, and how did this random forest kid marry a princess? Why did Snow and Charming never have more kids if they got out Emma so fast and were so happy to start a family? Why is Robin the same age as he was before, but Snow and Charming are way older? But we all know why most of those things are. The writers arent creative enough to think about giving Henry a new name, or not even having Henry, giving Emma a different husband or kids,  or see an Emma who is more of a diplomat and leader than bounty hunter, or giving Emma siblings that never got to exist because of Regina. And thats because...

This is really all about Regina. I know, how shocking, but its true. Its supposedly based on Emma's wish, but theres a reason that Snow and Charming are old but Regina's boyfriend is still young and hot, why Henry is still around, why we see so little of the other characters who Regina doesn't care about, because this is all about her. Its from her perspective, so everyone is better off with the curse happening because it made Emma tough or whatever, and we dont see any other kids Charming and Snow never got to have or a happy thriving kingdom or anything else that should be happening because it would remind us that Regina actually did something terrible to these people, and we cant have that. This whole episode seems to exist to retroactively justify the curse, which is just the most messed up thing I can imagine them doing, making this whole show and the whole plot of season one and the inciting incident of the show a complete joke.

I really hate the treatment of Wishverse Emma and Emma in general here, in fact it freaking sickens me. The amount of white washing of the evil that Regina is is just fucking stunning. Yeah, Emma should THANK Regina for her years of abandonment and abuse, being homeless and unloved and ending up in jail pregnant and alone as a teenager because it made her stronger and that made it worth it. Its this bullshit creepy trauma porn that so many writers, especially in the last few years, are constantly squawking about and its just disturbing. Yes, the only way to be an interesting person is to be a broken traumatized broken shell of a person and everyone who has been abused and victimized should just thank their abusers for making them stronger. Anything is better than stupid loser girlie singing princess Emma, what a loser! Strong Female Characters dont sing and pick flowers, thats LAME! They have WALLS and KICK ASS! Ironically, by making Henry still exist, it destroys the one real reason Emma would be happy for the curse, it brought her Henry who never would have existed without it. But no, that makes too much sense, we need to learn that liking girlie stuff is bad and Regina is awesome for the billionth time. 

God I still have feelings about this fucked up episode. 

Anyway, speaking of abusers, why is it that the one thing that A&E seem to remember about their show is that Regina is a sexual predator? They cant remember even the most basic rules of their own fucking mythology, but they can remember that their beloved Regina is a fucking rapist sexual predator piece of shit? In the words of Aladdin "Eww". Its so uncomfortable, I need a shower every time she starts pawing all over whatever man is in her near vicinity. 

Regina's callus murder of Wishverse Snow and Charming is already awful, and I dont get why she even assumes this is all fake and not just an alternate universe style thing, but her being unable to hurt Henry and then screwing her and Emma's one chance home up to get all dewy eyed about Wishverse Robin just makes it look worse. I guess we know how she really feels about the Charmings, huh? 

Spoiler

It really does make me root for Wishverse Henry even more when he shows up again in season seven, justifiably pissed off that Regina murdered his grandparents and disappeared his mom and refused to apologize for it. Maybe he went too far in whatever his stupid nd ill defined evil plan was, but he had every right to hate Regina. Really, knowing that we will get to know and care about many Wishverse characters later on, her murdering them and letting Wish Rumple out to cause trouble just makes her look terrible, even though she is supposed to be such a hero now.

The best part of the episode is the Charming/Hook bromance in full force, and while Charming angsting about wanting to kill the EQ seems as ridiculous as it always does when this show moralizes about killing horrible monsters who are active threats to everyone, him worrying about becoming more like his brother and Hook reassuring him that he isn't like him is at least a pretty good set of character beats for them.

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Why is Robin the same age as he was before, but Snow and Charming are way older?

I remember we were wondering why at that time, expecting that of course, there must be an explanation later, right?  You can't throw in a major dichotomy like that and not provide a reason for it, right?

Spoiler

They definitively never ever bothered to explain this.  

And heck, Robin Hood coming to Storybrooke was practically the only thing that came out of the Wish Realm.  

Until the brainstorming session for Season 7, of course.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Camera One

[Melgaypet]

Ah, the magical holodeck episode! Where nothing makes logical sense because the lazy writers genie didn't bother to think it through, but that's okay, nothing is real and, thus, there are no consequences.

What's that you say? Aladdin actually did use his genie powers to reach back along the timeline and split off a branch before the curse happened and so this Wish!World has now always retroactively existed? Great! That's much more interesting! But...this and this and also that, to say nothing of the this, now makes no sense whatsoever!

The whole thing feels like a first draft. No, not even that. It feels like when you're stuck and so you just write anything and everything that comes into your head without worrying about anything else.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Melgaypet

[Shanna Marie]

Another thing that bugs me about this episode, that I was reminded of when skimming through the thread from back when it aired, was the writers' view that Emma being a dimbulb in that world was a kind of "be careful what you wish for" punishment, since wishes tend to have a backlash. But it wasn't Emma's wish. The Evil Queen was the one who asked a genie for a wish. Emma made an offhand remark about a way she sometimes feels. She never would have made that wish to a genie. She'd just passed up an opportunity to rid herself of being the Savior, so it wasn't a real wish. If wishes to a genie have a backlash, the backlash should have hit the Evil Queen, not Emma.

The Evil Queen should have found herself also transported to that world, in the place of that world's Regina, since a world where Emma isn't the Savior is also a world in which Regina lost -- so it's a real case of be careful what you wish for. If she wants Emma not to be the Savior, then she has to lose.

[Melgaypet]

27 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

The Evil Queen should have found herself also transported to that world, in the place of that world's Regina, since a world where Emma isn't the Savior is also a world in which Regina lost -- so it's a real case of be careful what you wish for. If she wants Emma not to be the Savior, then she has to lose.

That reminds me...

Spoiler

...whatever happened to Wish!Regina? Last I recall, she was gambling with Wish!Smee and the rest of the Wish!Jolly Roger crew. Is she just out there somewhere, magic-free and looking thirty years older than "our" Regina? If so, I'm surprised the Regina-obsessed writers left that loose thread dangling.

[Camera One]

Maybe they were saving her for Season 8.  It's hard not to cry at all that might have been.  

Edited August 1, 2019 by Camera One

[tennisgurl]

What I want to know is, how is it that Princess Emma supposedly never had any conflict or any training in how to run a country or deal with a crisis? Yeah Regina was banished and there was no dark curse, but the EF had tons of other problems that had nothing to do with her! 

No more ogre wars or even ogre skirmishes? No more bandits now? Reds moms werewolf pack stop hunting, and the creepy werewolf bounty hunters stop hunting them? No more poverty, general crime, or natural disasters? No diplomatic issues or conflicts with neighboring kingdoms? No more of the monsters and creatures that we`ve seen for several seasons running around causing problems? Them and the bandits and the ogres all just...wandered away? The Charmings and Princess Emma never got to deal with that? Then who the hell did Prince Neal die fighting?! I mean, I totally buy Neal  just tripping and impaling himself on his own sword, but I assumed the show would want to give him something more noble at least! This time anyway...

So maybe Princess Emma isn't trained to fight (is that normal in this kingdom? All the guards we see are male, but both female and male children were conscripted to the ogres war, but we mostly only see adult male soldiers. What even are gender roles here?!?) but she wasn't trained as a leader or a diplomat? She has no idea what to do in case of an emergency? I dont buy at all that Snow and Charming wouldn't have been preparing her to lead the EF one day, that they never taught her how to fight or to handle it when bad things happen or her people are in need. Is Henry just going to be king next, because I am pretty sure that Snow was in line for the throne back when Leopold was king. She can be a lighter happier Emma, but maybe an Emma who is more of a stateswoman? But I guess A&E just cant imagine a woman who loves singing and flowers and pink could also be competent and badass. She has to be a total wimpy loser who, like, cries when her parents die. 

Edited August 1, 2019 by tennisgurl

[Camera One]

I think we discussed this before too, but did Emma retain memories of her time as Wish Emma?  If so, that would be a lot to unpack.  And it would have been traumatizing even though she knew her parents who died weren't "real". 

Spoiler

She would also have real feelings towards Wish Henry who she left behind.

Though since Emma never mentioned her experiences in the Wish Realm ever again, I'm assuming not.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I dont buy at all that Snow and Charming wouldn't have been preparing her to lead the EF one day, that they never taught her how to fight or to handle it when bad things happen or her people are in need.

That bit would have made more sense if there had been other siblings. If the males go to the head of the line even if women are older, and if there had been younger brothers, Emma wouldn't have been next in line to the throne and possibly would have been more sheltered (though I still find it hard to believe that Snow wouldn't have taught her daughter to use a sword and bow). But it really doesn't work for Emma to be sole heir to the throne and still be such a ninny.

If Emma weren't the heir, though, chances are she would have had a diplomatic marriage to some neighboring ruler or heir, so she still would either be queen or preparing to be queen of some other land. So she still wouldn't be a sheltered ninny with no gumption or problem-solving skills. And it's highly unlikely that a princess would have married someone like Nealfire, especially when they have his father in their dungeon. Do they know that Rumple is Henry's grandfather? Does Henry go visit grandpa in the dungeon?

7 hours ago, Camera One said:

I think we discussed this before too, but did Emma retain memories of her time as Wish Emma?  If so, that would be a lot to unpack.  And it would have been traumatizing even though she knew her parents who died weren't "real". 

Emma must have some confusing sets of memories by this point. There's what actually happened. There's the fake life leading up to the missing year, in which she didn't give Henry up for adoption but raised him as a single parent (which would mean that Henry's legal ID in the outside world would currently be "Henry Swan"). There's whatever fake memories Emma has of being the prisoner in the tower in the AU -- how long did she think she'd been in there? And there are the fake memories of growing up as a princess with her parents.