Daryl: Your Leading Man and Norman Reedus: the Actor

[AngelaHunter]

indicated men with shorter index fingers than ring fingers might be more generously endowed.

 

Actually, I believe that ring fingers longer than index fingers are found in all men with normal hormone levels while being the opposite for women. As for "generously endowed", according to NR he is that! ha...Go on, toot your own horn. Why not?

[NoWillToResist]

Actually, it might not mean much.  There was a study done, however, which indicated men with shorter index fingers than ring fingers might be more generously endowed.  So I'm withholding judgement until I get a more detailed look.

 

A more detailed look at his fingers, or.....?  ;)

[PunkyMouse]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking that. ;)

Actually, it might not mean much. There was a study done, however, which indicated men with shorter index fingers than ring fingers might be more generously endowed. So I'm withholding judgement until I get a more detailed look.

So what name should they put on the restraining order?

[AngelaHunter]

So I'm withholding judgement until I get a more detailed look.

 

If you're referring to hands, maybe this will help. If you aren't, sorry, nothing I can do about that!:p

 

[blueridgerobin]

So what name should they put on the restraining order?

LOL!!

 

You know...that really didn't come out the way I intended....

Actually, I believe that ring fingers longer than index fingers are found in all men with normal hormone levels while being the opposite for women. As for "generously endowed", according to NR he is that! ha...Go on, toot your own horn. Why not?

 Well, then, I am perfectly happy to believe him.  :)

[Ocean Chick]

Yeah, I've not heard any of his exes complaining about the sex....

[kikismom]

  So I'm withholding judgement until I get a more detailed look.

Proceed at your own risk---I was so accustomed to Andrea's rubbery face that when we saw a more detailed look of her hand I thought she was starting to turn:

[AngelaHunter]

when we saw a more detailed look of her hand I thought she was starting to turn:

 

Sadly, this is often the result when a woman stays very thin into middle age. Something's gotta suffer and it's often the hands. I advise you never to look at a closeup of Sarah Jessica Parker's hands. Downright frightening.

[nodorothyparker]

Finally a reason to be grateful I'm not super thin then.

[blueridgerobin]

Proceed at your own risk---I was so accustomed to Andrea's rubbery face that when we saw a more detailed look of her hand I thought she was starting to turn:

Whew....wow.  That's pretty bad. 

[mightysparrow]

I was thinking about the book on child abuse that fell out of Daryl's bag (sorry, I'm not interested in NR's dick) and I wonder if he got it for Carl. Carl's assault hasn't been mentioned yet, but hopefully the writers aren't pretending it never happened. As Carl's 'uncle', Daryl might feel that it's his job to try and help Carl, especially if something similar happened to him when he was young.

[JBody]

Interesting. I thought he grabbed the book for himself. Oh by the way I was thoroughly disgusted when he licked his fingers and shook not-Harry Potter's hand. *shudder* I'm not really a huge Daryl fan though.

[NoWillToResist]

I was thinking about the book on child abuse that fell out of Daryl's bag (sorry, I'm not interested in NR's dick) and I wonder if he got it for Carl. Carl's assault hasn't been mentioned yet, but hopefully the writers aren't pretending it never happened. As Carl's 'uncle', Daryl might feel that it's his job to try and help Carl, especially if something similar happened to him when he was young.

 

*grabs with both hands onto a topic involving the show* ;)

 

I had read in a review of the ep that the book was for those trying to help those who had been abused rather than a book for the victims themselves, so if that's the case, I think it's more to do with Carol (A) because he picked it up from the shelter Carol went to, and (B) while Carl went through something traumatic, I don't think that isolated (and stopped) attack would be as soul destroying and require as much support as someone who was abused for YEARS.

[JBody]

The book's title was supposedly Treating Survivors of Child Abuse: Psychotherapy for the Interrupted Life. So one could argue it's for Carol (because of Sophia) or for Carl (because of his assault) but my best guess is it's for Daryl himself.

[Emily Thrace]

The book's title was supposedly Treating Survivors of Child Abuse: Psychotherapy for the Interrupted Life. So one could argue it's for Carol (because of Sophia) or for Carl (because of his assault) but my best guess is it's for Daryl himself.

I really don't think it had anything to do with Carol. (If only because some small part of that episode has to not fucking be about the shows emotional blackhole). I think it was about what Beth said about letting go of his past. I think its part of Daryl ongoing arc of being open and trying to change. He wants to be better and thinks the book can help him.

[kikismom]

I think it would be funny if he just grabbed it to use the pages for toilet paper.

[JBody]

Bwahaha ain't that what poison oak's for? Sorry. Ummm. Well yeah I do think it's for him and I do wonder when on earth he's supposed to read it in between killing walkers and evil humans. Although, when was the last time he killed a non-Z?

[editorgrrl]

Although, when was the last time he killed a non-Z?

The Governor's minions who stormed the prison—ten days ago.

[kikismom]

The Governor's minions who stormed the prison—ten days ago.

Jeez, the Gov stormed the prison, they all split up, Carol and Ty did the Mika and Lizzie saga, Daryl and Beth and Funeral home and Grady cop kidnapping, Richonne and Carl interface, Glaggie and Sasha and Bob search and find and gather parasitic life forms, Daryl and Richonne and Carl get hugger-muggered by the Merletones, they all go to and get trapped and escape from Terminus, all reunite, Terminus returns, eats Bob's leg, war with Gareth, Carol and Daryl go to Atlanta one comes back, and they split up again to rescue Beth/Carol...in 10 days (story timeline)?!?!?

They won't need a time-jump. Judith will be an infant for the next 8 seasons at this rate. Just keep hiring new babies.

But NR should have taught Chandler Riggs to smoke and stunt his growth.

 

I count 4 different villain groups---Gov/Woodbury, Merletones, Termites, and Hospital Lollicops---in 10 days.

Rick Grimes must be a magnet for disaster.

[editorgrrl]

I count 4 different villain groups---Gov/Woodbury, Merletones, Termites, and Hospital Lollicops---in 10 days.

Rick Grimes must be a magnet for disaster.

Are the Merletones the Claimers? Merle's way better than that. (Without the sweets, the Lollicops would've been the Grady bunch.)

[NoWillToResist]

The book's title was supposedly Treating Survivors of Child Abuse: Psychotherapy for the Interrupted Life. So one could argue it's for Carol (because of Sophia) or for Carl (because of his assault) but my best guess is it's for Daryl himself.

 

Ah, I missed the "Child" part of that title. Yeah, that seems more up Daryl's alley then. Whether it's geared more towards someone who wants to help the survivor vs geared towards the survivor himself, it's a start. Too bad he wasn't with Maggie and Glenn when they holed up in that library! He'd have had plenty of time to peruse the self help section. :)

[JBody]

But not the way Mullet was *snicker*

Yeah about that time thing... the fall of the prison was a year ago and our rag tag band has lived through 10 days. I don't know about anyone else but it is increasingly adding to my disconnect from the characters and hence the show.

[editorgrrl]

Yeah about that time thing... the fall of the prison was a year ago and our rag tag band has lived through 10 days. I don't know about anyone else but it is increasingly adding to my disconnect from the characters and hence the show.

Wasn't the back half of last season 8 days in 8 episodes?

But yeah, I expect a time jump between tomorrow & February.

[NoWillToResist]

Wasn't the back half of last season 8 days in 8 episodes?

But yeah, I expect a time jump between tomorrow & February.

 

I agree. *If* Carol isn't killed off tomorrow, she has internal injuries that will need to heal if TPTB want their gang to be mobile when the show returns in February and hopefully Daryl's purple eye will be history. Ugh. It's such an eye sore (no pun intended)...

Edited November 29, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[ghoulina]

I didn't think anything of Daryl siding with Tyreese over Rick. He's Rick's buddy and adopted brother, not his unthinking yes-man. He can have his own opinions and he wasn't shy about opposing Rick in earlier seasons.  A genuine loyal friend isn't one who says yes all of the time but will speak up and say he wants to go along with a different idea if he thinks it's better.  Rick chose to go along with it.  Daryl spoke his mind and Rick trusted him.  That's the sign of true friendship.

 

Daryl siding with Rick didn't bother me because he's supposed to be a mindless yes-man. It bothered me because the plan was so fucking stupid and it just didn't seem like something Daryl would go for. I guess with Carol AND Beth being there, maybe he's not wanting to take too many risks.....but damn, I just hated Tyrese's "plan".

I agree. *If* Carol isn't killed off tomorrow, she has internal injuries that will need to heal if TPTB want their gang to be mobile when the show returns in February and hopefully Daryl's purple eye will be history. Ugh. It's such an eye sore (no pun intended)...

 

And that will give Daryl time to read that book.

[Shield86]

I dont think daryl will make it past you know who

[Shield86]

Where does it state that it has been 10 days since the fall of the prison?

[editorgrrl]

Where does it state that it has been 10 days since the fall of the prison?

http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Television_Show_Timeline

[Shield86]

Is thatloosely based on the timeline of comics or do the showrunners back this timeline for tv?

[kikismom]

Wasn't the back half of last season 8 days in 8 episodes?

But yeah, I expect a time jump between tomorrow & February.

i thought the back half of last season was 8 episodes of some people living somewhere else on the same day as other people, some people finding grapes that hadn't actually been crushed yet, some people talking to people who've been dead for a year and some live people not speaking to other live people.

Seemed pretty clear.

 

 

I dont think daryl will make it past you know who

I'm dim.  what do you mean?

(I wish i was dim sum; then I could go with Mu Shu  :-D)

[GreyBunny]

Is thatloosely based on the timeline of comics or do the showrunners back this timeline for tv?

 

I think it's fan speculation (and it's very well done and I admire the work they've put into it.  It's a useful guide.)  I've heard a few writers and producers say "18 months" or "19 months" when talking about the overall timeline.   

 

Being off a few days here and a day over there and maybe by a couple weeks or a month during a time jump and a difference in timeframe of 4-5 months isn't strange.  

Edited November 29, 2014 by GreyBunny

[Shield86]

I felt like at least some time passed between seasons 4 and 5

i thought the back half of last season was 8 episodes of some people living somewhere else on the same day as other people, some people finding grapes that hadn't actually been crushed yet, some people talking to people who've been dead for a year and some live people not speaking to other live people.

Seemed pretty clear.

I'm dim. what do you mean?

(I wish i was dim sum; then I could go with Mu Shu :-D)

Well I was trying to avoid spoliers if you haven't read the comics but a certain Indivdual that is coming up soon

[editorgrrl]

Is thatloosely based on the timeline of comics or do the showrunners back this timeline for tv?

http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Television_Show_Timeline has zero to do with the comics. It's a chronological transcription of the TV show.

[Shield86]

http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Television_Show_Timeline has zero to do with the comics. It's a chronological transcription of the TV show.

Ok but where do you get this info from then? The showrunners?

[editorgrrl]

They write down what they see on their TV screens.

To save this from being a total derail, here's the page compiling everything about Daryl. (He's not in the comics.) http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Daryl_Dixon_(TV_Series)

Edited November 30, 2014 by editorgrrl

[Shield86]

So the timeline is questionable at best

[Emily Thrace]

Wasn't the back half of last season 8 days in 8 episodes?

But yeah, I expect a time jump between tomorrow & February.

A couple of the AMC character bios state that they were on the road several weeks. I feel like events The Grove took at least a week maybe two on thier own.

I think we might get a small time jump after the MSF but no more than a month or two. TPTB aren't going to want to age Judith too much before they reach DC.

[BrokenRemote]

I'm curious as to why you think that was a week or two in The Grove. Wouldn't the fire Daryl and Beth set have to have been smoking for weeks then? It was black smoke in the beginning and white smoke at the end. That alone makes me think it was a day or two, but also because I didn't see anything that seemed to show any passage of time.

Also I don't think Beth needed to be the impetus for Daryl to find the book. He's been on his own journey for a while--I don't think the couple days he spent with her gave him that much of an inspiration to heal compared to his 18 months of interaction with everyone else he knows.

Edited November 30, 2014 by BrokenRemote

[Emily Thrace]

I'm curious as to why you think that was a week or two in The Grove. Wouldn't the fire Daryl and Beth set have to have been smoking for weeks then? It was black smoke in the beginning and white smoke at the end. That alone makes me think it was a day or two, but also because I didn't see anything that seemed to show any passage of time.

Also I don't think Beth needed to be the impetus for Daryl to find the book. He's been on his own journey for a while--I don't think the couple days he spent with her gave him that much of an inspiration to heal compared to his 18 months of interaction with everyone else he knows.

I think thats actually what made Daryl's journey in Still so important though. While Rick and the others have helped Daryl grow by accepting Beth is the one who made Daryl see that he truly needs to change and even more importantly made him want. Rick and the others made him see the value in himself but Beth made him see that his past was killing him. Even nore he showed the worst of his past and she still accepted and even respected him which is huge for Daryl. Daryl probably always felt like anyone who saw where he came from would reject or pity him thats why he hadn't done it before. Beth made him feel like his past wasn't as big as he made it out to be which is why I think he is trying to deal with it now.

Also I think the wound Tyrese had is a big clue to the timeline in The Grove. It had time to get infected and then heal (since it clearly wasn't bothering him when they left) which would take at least a week realistically. I also don't think Lizzie would have gone from deluded to actually murderous overnight. Its just not how mental illness works Most people who do things like that don't snap they form a plan in their minds before they take action.

[GreyBunny]

Carol's persistent attempts to befriend outcast Daryl in season 2 telling him he's "every bit as good as them.  Every bit." and Rick's eventual trust and loyalty and telling him, "You're my brother" probably has far more positive impact on Daryl and his personal development than getting drunk and burning down a cabin with some overglorified teenager.

Edited November 30, 2014 by GreyBunny

[NoWillToResist]

 Rick and the others made him see the value in himself but Beth made him see that his past was killing him. Even nore he showed the worst of his past and she still accepted and even respected him which is huge for Daryl. Daryl probably always felt like anyone who saw where he came from would reject or pity him thats why he hadn't done it before. Beth made him feel like his past wasn't as big as he made it out to be which is why I think he is trying to deal with it now..

 

I would argue than anyone who met Merle would have a damned good sense of Daryl's past.  :)

 

I didn't get the sense that Beth made Daryl see that his past was killing him. He'd been doing just fine at the prison. It was only after the prison fell that he fell into his big numbing depression; IMO, that had nothing to do with his childhood and everything to do with him kind of giving up because everyone he cared about was presumably dead. She stuck with him and didn't let him fall too deeply into a pity party, and gradually pulled him out of his seclusion, giving him direction and a reason to stay alive. That was huge. Now that he's back with his 'family', I think he's continuing the personal acceptance/improvement journey he was on at the prison.

 

Also I think the wound Tyrese had is a big clue to the timeline in The Grove. It had time to get infected and then heal (since it clearly wasn't bothering him when they left) which would take at least a week realistically. I also don't think Lizzie would have gone from deluded to actually murderous overnight. Its just not how mental illness works Most people who do things like that don't snap they form a plan in their minds before they take action.

 

I'm pretty sure TPTB confirmed that the gang's various episodes overlapped each other time-wise, so I don't think The Grove was over weeks.

 

Re: Lizzie...wasn't she the one who dissected a rat? She also killed those bunnies before The Grove. Those are classic warning signs... they just appear to have been sped up in the ZA. ;)  Also, she was so determined to show Carol the real nature of Walkers. In her mind, she wasn't murdering Mika, so I didn't view her stabbing her sister as her 'snapping'...

[GreyBunny]

I would argue than anyone who met Merle would have a damned good sense of Daryl's past.  :)

 

I didn't get the sense that Beth made Daryl see that his past was killing him. He'd been doing just fine at the prison. It was only after the prison fell that he fell into his big numbing depression; IMO, that had nothing to do with his childhood and everything to do with him kind of giving up because everyone he cared about was presumably dead. She stuck with him and didn't let him fall too deeply into a pity party, and gradually pulled him out of his seclusion, giving him direction and a reason to stay alive. That was huge. Now that he's back with his 'family', I think he's continuing the personal acceptance/improvement journey he was on at the prison.

 

Good point, and it seems that he's turning around and trying to help Carol the same way.  I think Carol's in a deep depression after recent events and Daryl has let her know he's there for her whenever and however she needs him.  She doesn't have to talk but she also doesn't have to isolate herself.

[editorgrrl]

TPTB confirmed that the gang's various episodes overlapped each other time-wise, so I don't think The Grove was over weeks.

^This. The smoke Carol saw in "The Grove" was Daryl & Beth burning down the shack.

It's only been ten days since the prison fell—hence Daryl's purple eye. Didn't Norman get a black eye IRL, and the makeup people worked it into Daryl's look? I had no idea we'd still be looking at it what, eight, nine months later.

Edited November 30, 2014 by editorgrrl

[blueridgerobin]

Carol's persistent attempts to befriend outcast Daryl in season 2 telling him he's "every bit as good as them.  Every bit." and Rick's eventual trust and loyalty and telling him, "You're my brother" probably has far more positive impact on Daryl and his personal development than getting drunk and burning down a cabin with some overglorified teenager.

 This is what I signed on to say, almost word for word.  As annoying as Beth can be to me, I don't discount the fact that she did serve a certain purpose in "Still", which was helping to force Daryl out of his black depression.  But Carol was already clued in to Daryl's past, and had been for a long time.  She definitely understood where he came from, and she spent all of season 2 and some of season 3 trying to build him up, to show him he was a person of worth.   Carol was working on Daryl's self-esteem while Beth was still wearing green Keds and fainting at the sink.

[BrokenRemote]

I would argue than anyone who met Merle would have a damned good sense of Daryl's past. :)

I didn't get the sense that Beth made Daryl see that his past was killing him. He'd been doing just fine at the prison. It was only after the prison fell that he fell into his big numbing depression; IMO, that had nothing to do with his childhood and everything to do with him kind of giving up because everyone he cared about was presumably dead. She stuck with him and didn't let him fall too deeply into a pity party, and gradually pulled him out of his seclusion, giving him direction and a reason to stay alive. That was huge. Now that he's back with his 'family', I think he's continuing the personal acceptance/improvement journey he was on at the prison.

Exactly what I meant. I'm not saying Beth didn't help him out of that particular emotional lockdown, the sorrow of losing the prison and all the family he loved, just that I don't think, as far as Daryl's personal journey, that the couple days he spent with Beth were more than a blip on that path.

We've seen his gradual change from the obnoxious, immature hothead to a trusted leader in the group--like Carol said, from a boy to a man--because his family supported him, saw his worth, wouldn't give up on him and created a place where he could prove how strong and valuable he was.

I recently saw a deleted scene from Season 2, during the Randall saga, that I wish they'd left in. Carol is telling him, basically 'You can take back your friendship, all the kind and smart things you've said. I don't care; I've lost worse.' Even when she's supposedly pushing him away she's acknowledging his good qualities. Every time someone in that group listened to a suggestion he made, acknowledged him as smart, as kind and good (even Patrick and the hero worship and Zach guessing he'd been a cop) it reinforced the positive self-image Daryl was starting to let himself build.

The book is the next step in a long evolution, not a thunderclap breakthrough brought about by a drunken conversation about his childhood. He's given lots of people glimpses of that, even Carl. Hell, anyone who met Merle already had a good idea what Daryl's childhood was like, and it's not like he's kept it all in. If he had, we as an audience wouldn't have known he had a rough, abusive childhood until 'Still', but we did know from dozens of comments and actions over 4 years on our screens.

Here's that scene--ignore the title, I'm not a Caryl shipper. It was just the only instance I could find of that scene by itself rather than in a longer video of deleted scenes. (Yes, I'm that bored waiting for the next episode that I'm watching TWD deleted scenes from all seasons!)

Edited to fix typo--Daryl wasn't 'in our screens' he was on them.

Edited November 30, 2014 by BrokenRemote

[editorgrrl]

We've seen his gradual change from the obnoxious, immature hothead to a trusted leader in the group--like Carol said, from a boy to a man--because his family supported him, saw his worth, wouldn't give up on him and created a place where he could prove how strong and valuable he was.

Every time someone in that group listened to a suggestion he made, acknowledged him as smart, as kind and good (even Patrick and the hero worship and Zachary guessing he'd been a cop) it reinforced the positive self-image Daryl was starting to let himself build.

The book is the next step in a long evolution, not a thunderclap breakthrough brought about by a drunken conversation about his childhood.

More than just Daryl's hairstyle & -color have changed over the course of five seasons. People talk all the time about Carol's character arc and growth—even Michonne's. But Season 5 Daryl is way more open (and way less racist) than he was in Season 1.

To me, Daryl took that book to do further work on himself. I'm baffled as to why some see it as his desire to learn to help Carol or Carl. Yeah, it's a real book meant for therapists rather than victims. But it's the bloody ZA, and Daryl accepted what help was available to him at the time.

Compare Daryl to those on the short bus. Did anyone search the self-help section for books about processing grief and trauma? Or look for books about living off the grid?

[BrokenRemote]

More than just Daryl's hairstyle & -color have changed over the course of five seasons. People talk all the time about Carol's character arc and growth—even Michonne's. But Season 5 Daryl is way more open (and way less racist) than he was in Season 1.

To me, Daryl took that book to do further work on himself. I'm baffled as to why some see it as his desire to learn to help Carol or Carl. Yeah, it's a real book meant for therapists rather than victims. But it's the bloody ZA, and Daryl accepted what help was available to him at the time.

Compare Daryl to those on the short bus. Did anyone search the self-help section for books about processing grief and trauma? Or look for books about living off the grid?

It made me so upset when they were burning those books!

I've often wondered why they never look for books. With no internet, the sum of human knowledge is basically in books. I know they're often running for their lives, but they've been in lots of houses where they never seem to even look. Maybe they just don't show it, but that's one thing I'd be looking for. Survival guides, like you said, books on how things work (water filtering, generating electricity, pumping water, smoking and drying food for safe storage...there must be a thousand things). Will Judith and her generation even learn to read?

And the topic of Daryl's hair changing got me thinking--am I the only fan who really doesn't find Daryl physically attractive at all?

Edited November 30, 2014 by BrokenRemote

[JBody]

Nope. Not the only one. I think NR is an awesome person but I think of him as Sharon Stone once described Dwight Yoakum: he's as appealing as a dirt sandwich.

[shanndee]

Carol's persistent attempts to befriend outcast Daryl in season 2 telling him he's "every bit as good as them.  Every bit." and Rick's eventual trust and loyalty and telling him, "You're my brother" probably has far more positive impact on Daryl and his personal development than getting drunk and burning down a cabin with some overglorified teenager.

 

 

 This is what I signed on to say, almost word for word.  As annoying as Beth can be to me, I don't discount the fact that she did serve a certain purpose in "Still", which was helping to force Daryl out of his black depression.  But Carol was already clued in to Daryl's past, and had been for a long time.  She definitely understood where he came from, and she spent all of season 2 and some of season 3 trying to build him up, to show him he was a person of worth.  Carol was working on Daryl's self-esteem while Beth was still wearing green Keds and fainting at the sink.

 

 

Exactly what I meant. I'm not saying Beth didn't help him out of that particular emotional lockdown, the sorrow of losing the prison and all the family he loved, just that I don't think, as far as Daryl's personal journey, that the couple days he spent with Beth were more than a blip on that path.

We've seen his gradual change from the obnoxious, immature hothead to a trusted leader in the group--like Carol said, from a boy to a man--because his family supported him, saw his worth, wouldn't give up on him and created a place where he could prove how strong and valuable he was.

I recently saw a deleted scene from Season 2, during the Randall saga, that I wish they'd left in. Carol is telling him, basically 'You can take back your friendship, all the kind and smart things you've said. I don't care; I've lost worse.' Even when she's supposedly pushing him away she's acknowledging his good qualities. Every time someone in that group listened to a suggestion he made, acknowledged him as smart, as kind and good (even Patrick and the hero worship and Zach guessing he'd been a cop) it reinforced the positive self-image Daryl was starting to let himself build.

The book is the next step in a long evolution, not a thunderclap breakthrough brought about by a drunken conversation about his childhood. He's given lots of people glimpses of that, even Carl. Hell, anyone who met Merle already had a good idea what Daryl's childhood was like, and it's not like he's kept it all in. If he had, we as an audience wouldn't have known he had a rough, abusive childhood until 'Still', but we did know from dozens of comments and actions over 4 years on our screens.

 

 

 

Thank you!!

 

All of the above! Daryl was well on his way to recovery before Beth had that short time with him. What she did was pull him out of his depression over the loss of all of the others. Carol, Rick, (even Carl!) have played a far more important role in Daryl's emotional development than Beth. She helped him recover from one thing...the others aided in his gradual (and continuous) healing and in his growing self esteem.

Edited November 30, 2014 by shanndee

[editorgrrl]

Can we please lhave a moratorium on the "Beth helped Daryl grow more (or less) than Carol did" talk?! Daryl did the work.