S01.E08: Unstoppable Forces & Immovable Objects

[Maximum Taco]

18 hours ago, possibilities said:

The show is implying that Mike is a hot property, but if that's the case, why would the Padres want to get rid of him? I get that sometimes you just need a particular skill in your line up, but if Mike spent his entire career as a catcher with the Padres, and they no longer think he's worth keeping, why would another team think he would be a better catcher for them, either? It's not like they are trading him for someone else who is dynamite at something they lack, they're just trying to get rid of him... why? To save money? Because they think he's useless? I don't really get how it adds up that another team would be so eager to have him if that's true.

It all has to do with how deep a small market team can afford to be.

A team like the Yanks, Red Sox, or Dodgers would absolutely keep both Lawson and Duarte and let Duarte develop as Lawson's backup, both staying competitive this year and also looking towards the future and developing their next catcher. The Yanks and BoSox also could swap Lawson in at DH for some games to extend his career and keep his bat in the lineup, while giving Duarte exposure at catcher.

A smaller market team like the Padres though may not think it can afford to keep both, if they are confident Duarte will be their starting catcher next year, it makes more sense for them to move Lawson (who is on an expiring contract?) for prospects that can help them, instead of letting him walk for nothing, or signing him to a contract extension when they already have a guy they like at catcher.

Conversely a team that is right in the thick of the playoff hunt but a little anemic on offense would value a bat like Lawson a lot, and would be willing to sell their future (prospects) for a few months and a playoff run with him.

Edited November 20, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[possibilities]

Thanks for the explanations about Mike and his relative value to other teams. It makes sense to me now.

[ParadoxLost]

I think Mike wanting to leave because of Ginny is less because of romantic feelings and more about wanting to be her mentor/catcher and he is running because its going to be harder on him to watch her have the majority of her career after he retires the closer he gets to her.

I think this is the same reason he's so against first base. 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Pitch And The Law Of Averages

A rain-delay kangaroo court brings up a lot of feelings. Is the show guilty of first-degree unrequited-love clichés?

[vibeology]

I was early on the idea that Mike had it bad for Ginny so I'm glad to see him finally realize it. I still think the show is moving a little early on the ship, but I also get that they wanted to do something with it before the end of the season in case that's all the show we get.

Mostly I just want to talk about how much I love Oscar and how he's quickly become a favourite for me. He's interesting, I always enjoy his plots, I think the way he pushes back against other characters is very revealing about them and him and I believe him as a former player/GM. He knows his business, he knows his team, he knows how to move to get things done and I just really enjoy him. I didn't think much of him back in the pilot but now I'm thrilled every time we cut to his plots. In this episode we see him with Mike, Al and Charlie and the way he manages each of them is pretty amazing. If you had told me back in the first episode I'd love Oscar I never would have believed it but the writing and Mark Consuelos have really done a great job creating a complex character who can cause tension without being the "bad guy."

[TobinAlbers]

Boy, the myriad emotions that flitted across Lawson's face as he watched Ginny 

1. Aww she's doing that singing thing again. I love when she does that. 

2. Crap. I have feelings for her.

3. Crap. That's not a good thing.

4. I want it to be a good thing.

5. No, it's really not a good thing.

6. I'm burning this moment in my memory because I'm totally going to have to leave here and her.

7. Damn, girl. I really wish....

8. Not gonna happen. Can't happen. Chicago. New York. It doesn't matter, I gotta leave.

MPG was breaking my heart!

I'm fascinated by just how a Ginny/Mike relationship would work. Right now I just can't see it happening or working for either of them at this stage of their careers. She's just starting out and he's winding down. She's 23 and we just had an episode of how she realizes she'd be just out of college and fun, flirty, carefree, and living for herself and Mike is at a stage of wanting home, hearth, and family. Unless there is a time jump where we see her at 30 and him at 43 where she's looking at her phase 2 and post pitching career and he's waited for her to get to that point then a HEA for them during her career just doesn't seem possible.

Once Ginny retired I can see her becoming a sports agent or sports broadcaster or maybe teaching the next generation of players while Mike coaches or does broadcasting or takes Oscar's job as a manager. For both Ginny and Mike family, i.e. Kids, seem like something they'd want, but again even at 30 and after a career putting everything else on hold, Ginny may want more me for me time rather than settle down so soon.

And yet all I can think of is a final scene down the line (if we were to go four or five seasons) of an older Ginny pitching and Mike catching while they play with their young kids and grinning like an idiot over it.

Blip cottoning on to Lawson having feelings for Ginny was great. Once he realized it, his gaze was laser focused unwaveringly locked onto Mike's face and Mike knew it and wouldn't look back at him to see that he was busted.

I wasn't prepared to like MC on this show but he's been great as Oscar. As someone pointed out, he brings great drama and tension without being the bad guy. Constantly stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Ali Larter has also been great in that she has the real tiger in her as an aggressive agent, but has shown nice nuanced moments of vulnerability with Mike and caring for Ginny as more than a client. She's Ginny's champion and will go to the mat for her.

[Clanstarling]

On 11/18/2016 at 0:47 PM, Dowel Jones said:

I lost all respect for Oscar, until it was shown that his squeeze is Al's daughter instead of someone's wife.

Me too, so I actively tried to figure out who she could be (given the secrecy) and not be someone's wife (because I like Oscar so much), and actually guessed right! I was pretty pleased with myself.  I did not recognize Sarah Shahi - who I saw last in Life, so it's been awhile.

I have a totally irrational hatred of  Ali Lartner - so I never respond well to her characters and always think the worst of them. So I thought she was kind of pissy and passive aggressive to Will. This hatred is based on nothing I can identify.

[Happytobehere]

18 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Me too, so I actively tried to figure out who she could be (given the secrecy) and not be someone's wife (because I like Oscar so much), and actually guessed right! I was pretty pleased with myself.  I did not recognize Sarah Shahi - who I saw last in Life, so it's been awhile.

I have a totally irrational hatred of  Ali Lartner - so I never respond well to her characters and always think the worst of them. So I thought she was kind of pissy and passive aggressive to Will. This hatred is based on nothing I can identify.

The problem is Oscsar is still married and I doubt this relationship began after the split.  Probably explains his sleeping on the couch status.

[topanga]

On 11/22/2016 at 0:09 AM, TobinAlbers said:

 

Boy, the myriad emotions that flitted across Lawson's face as he watched Ginny 

1. Aww she's doing that singing thing again. I love when she does that. 

2. Crap. I have feelings for her.

3. Crap. That's not a good thing.

4. I want it to be a good thing.

5. No, it's really not a good thing.

6. I'm burning this moment in my memory because I'm totally going to have to leave here and her.

7. Damn, girl. I really wish....

8. Not gonna happen. Can't happen. Chicago. New York. It doesn't matter, I gotta leave.

MPG was breaking my heart!

 

I re-watched that scene. Okay, I've probably re-watched it ten times. Your descriptions are spot-on. 

I just wonder, though: would anyone outside a TV show be so willing to uproot his life, his career, leave the team he loves, and leave the ex-wife he says he loves and wants back, all because he has Feelings for the lady pitcher on his team?

Someone above said that Lawson having feelings for Ginny and having feelings for his ex-wife don't have to be mutually exclusive. I just don't get why he feels he has to get away from Ginny. 

[TobinAlbers]

43 minutes ago, topanga said:

Ginny and having feelings for his ex-wife don't have to be mutually exclusive. I just don't get why he feels he has to get away from Ginny. 

His ex-wife is engaged and has been successful in keeping the walls and distance up between them for the most part (that near kiss being the exception) so it's not as easy to disrupt her life. Although it seems obvious she does have feelings for him and could be tempted to give in but she has reasons not to go back down that path with Mike that keep her from going there.

With Ginny he's her mentor, she's still a rookie and a suggestable 'duckling', she's important politically, nationally, socially, etc. and these feelings he has for her seem like they're overwhelming him to a degree that he wouldn't be able to help himself from doing something to make it an issue and completely upset their relationship, which would most definitely affect Ginny professionally. His feelings are such that he doesn't want to do ANYTHING that would hurt her.

And as his ex wife pointed out, he needs to get himself together before he drags anyone back into his garbage. He doesn't want Ginny anywhere near him because he knows/fears he'd destroy her or mess her up on a number of levels really badly.

And while his leaving her to Livan to go to another team will hurt her in the short run, if it heads off them beginning an inappropriate relationship where it is highly likely at this stage that he'll hurt her and it upends her and her career (forget him he's a guy and his career is almost over) then he's going to be on the next plane out. The thing Mike needs to realize is that he needs to be (and is) strong enough to put aside his fears and stay and keep it professional to support Ginny on her journey while working on himself to be a man worthy of her and who could be in a relationship should the time ever present itself. I think he'll realize that running is selfish and cowardly on his part and he'll suck it up to make sure Ginny has what she needs in order to be the best player she can be.

[Irlandesa]

4 hours ago, Happytobehere said:

The problem is Oscsar is still married and I doubt this relationship began after the split.  Probably explains his sleeping on the couch status.

I'm confused about his status.  He was hitting on Amelia pretty openly in the pilot so I don't think he was involved in this relationship then unless he's some sort of huge womanizer.  That's possible but when they show it with Mike, it's not subtle.  This would be the complete opposite of that. 

I got the impression that he and his wife are legally separated but were trying to do "best for the child" by not having him completely move out.

3 hours ago, topanga said:

Someone above said that Lawson having feelings for Ginny and having feelings for his ex-wife don't have to be mutually exclusive. I just don't get why he feels he has to get away from Ginny. 

Others have given reasons--some nice and angsty ones. I don't think it is necessarily about protecting her.  It's likely frustration. His ex has moved on.  His team is moving on from his as a catcher.  He's coming to the end of his career and doesn't have a championship. His thing with Amelia never quite off the ground.  And any feelings he might have for Ginny are likely going nowhere while they are teammates so he either has to pretend they don't exist (his current mode) or get over them (always easier said than done.) If Ginny represents a decisive moment for him, it's likely that it's just one more thing in a string of reasons pointing towards the exit door.

[Clanstarling]

15 hours ago, Happytobehere said:

The problem is Oscsar is still married and I doubt this relationship began after the split.  Probably explains his sleeping on the couch status.

Well crap. I forgot that.

[Dowel Jones]

Yeah, me too.  Back in the rathole, Oscar.

[Raja]

17 hours ago, topanga said:

I re-watched that scene. Okay, I've probably re-watched it ten times. Your descriptions are spot-on. 

I just wonder, though: would anyone outside a TV show be so willing to uproot his life, his career, leave the team he loves, and leave the ex-wife he says he loves and wants back, all because he has Feelings for the lady pitcher on his team?

Someone above said that Lawson having feelings for Ginny and having feelings for his ex-wife don't have to be mutually exclusive. I just don't get why he feels he has to get away from Ginny. 

He is not uprooting his career just for Ginny. The career is missing the cap of being part of a league and world champion. Many a player have moved in that last season in pursuit of that goal, many unsuccessfully. Like 50 all time great NBA power forward Karl (mailman) Malone joining the Lakers in his last year but failing with them to get over the hump and being named "world champion" along with his other hall of fame accomplishments. I don't know if they named the reigning world champion previously or slotted in many teams for the final cut.

[dargosmydaddy]

3 hours ago, Raja said:

I don't know if they named the reigning world champion previously or slotted in many teams for the final cut.

That was my speculation... I kind of think the use of the Cubs, once they won, was purposeful, though I guess we'll see how that plays out.

[CabotCove]

Quote

 I wish there was more baseball in this show and less Amelia.

 I wish there was more baseball in this show and less Mike pain and love story

[topanga]

Quote

I wish there was more baseball in this show and less Amelia.

13 hours ago, HeroLeague said:

 I wish there was more baseball in this show and less Mike pain and love story

 

I personally like the relationships on this show: family relationships, business relationships, friendships, team camaraderie, and yes, twu wuv. Without them, I feel like I’d be watching a baseball documentary or a History Channel show about baseball. No, I don’t think every show requires a love story. But I tend to like them if they’re written and executed well. Is the budding love story between Ginny and Mike done well on Pitch? YMMV. But I like MPG and Kylie’s performances so much that for me, everything they’ve done this season has been gold. 

People have argued that the baseball stories could be written more accurately and authentically. Such as Ginny not knowing things that a long-time player and baseball fan should know. That’s possibly true. I’m only a casual MLB fan, so a lot of the baseball history is new to me. So it’s entirely plausible that Ginny should know all about it. But it’s also true that millennials tend to know details only about recent sports history. Ask current NBA stars. Very few of them can tell you about the legacies of Oscar Robertson or Dominique Wilkins or even someone like Spud Webb.  Or in the NFL, many current players can’t tell you much about the running style of Eric Dickerson or talk to you about how Randall Cunningham and Warren Moon changed the game of football. And don’t ask them for details about the Steel Curtain—most current players only know that Pittsburgh had a great defense in the  ‘70s.

[CabotCove]

Quote

  I wish there was more baseball in this show and less Amelia.I personally like the relationships on this show: family relationships, business relationships, friendships, team camaraderie, and yes, twu wuv. Without them, I feel like I’d be watching a baseball documentary or a History Channel show about baseball. No, I don’t think every show requires a love story. But I tend to like them if they’re written and executed well. Is the budding love story between Ginny and Mike done well on Pitch? YMMV

Believe me... I too like character relationships in my shows, platonic or romantic, im just not  a fan of this particular love story. The idea, the execution, timing is just not right with me. I maybe could tolerate  it if it was a minor subplot but it seem that its building up to be a central story of the series. I like love stories , but this was not the show for it  to be a main focus IMO. And they had to chose a icky love story on top of that.

But its cool, this is the story Pitch want to tell,  its me who need to accept  its not the show I thought it was and move on. Maybe I will finish the season since only 2 episodes are left, but after that I really dont care if there is a season 2 or not. Its kind of freeing in a way.

Edited November 30, 2016 by HeroLeague

[Eolivet]

Decent episode, but I wanted more focus on Ginny. Isn't this show called Pitch, not Catch? Don't get me wrong -- Mike Lawson is great and Gosselaar is a joy to watch, but while he's the "male lead," I want the show to be about the first woman pitcher in the majors, and the players, agents and family that surround her, not the "aging superstar" story that every TV and movie has done a million times over.

I think there are a number of ways to read the whole Baker/Lawson relationship, but I don't believe he wanted to stay on the Padres just to be near Ginny. I see it much more as a comfort/discomfort issue. I think that was the point to her speaking out in kangaroo court -- she's changed everything about the team, she's not about to do things "the old way" just by virtue of being herself, and it sort of "knocks him for six," as it were. So, he originally wanted to stay with the Padres because he was comfortable there, but I think that last scene is him realizing that this isn't the same comfortable team he's used to -- that things are different, because Ginny is there. Once he realizes this (professionally or personally), he decides to run from it.

To me, the show has become slightly more unfocused than it was in the earliest episodes. I'm still watching because I think the cast is terrific, the characters are likable and the acting is good, but the stories are really all over the place. I still hope it comes back for a second season, though.

[possibilities]

1 hour ago, Eolivet said:

Isn't this show called Pitch, not Catch? Don't get me wrong <snip> I want the show to be about the first woman pitcher in the majors, and the players, agents and family that surround her, not the "aging superstar" story that every TV and movie has done a million times over.

This is how I feel, and it's making me very nervous. I don't want to be suckered into another bait and switch by FOX, where they promise me a story with a woman of color lead and then put her in the back seat to the white male who turns out to be the lead.

I mean, honestly I do not care AT ALL about the "aging player facing retirement" story on any level, nor do I wish to see the glorification of a retiring mentor pining for a romance with his nubile young mentee. It's squicky as hell.

[Victura]

Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I actually like that the show has branched out a bit beyond just Ginny. We got some of Ginny's back story and I appreciated seeing some of Mike's as well. Even though the show is primarily about the first female pitcher in the MLB, she is not an island unto herself and her place on the team and how she got there are all part of the story. It's an ensemble show with a great cast, and I like seeing these other characters develop, including their relationships with each other. As someone who is not really a baseball fan, I feel like there's enough baseball - if anyone wanted more, aren't there actual baseball games to watch instead of a TV show about it?

[Eolivet]

I'm not talking about more baseball -- I mean more Ginny. The episode early on about how she had to deal with comments that her manager made, how she was expected to be a role model for all women and speak out on feminist issues...I thought that was terrific. Just the depiction of a rising superstar in totally unchartered (and male-dominated) territory. I also don't think (unless I'm misremembering), Ginny has dealt with racism. Or even really nasty cases of sexism. No stalkers? No incidence of "blind gossip"-type stories, where "clubhouse sources" complain about her fame and she has to figure out which of her teammates secretly resents her?  It's like I want to bring the producers of UnREAL into this show and have them teach these writers a thing or two about how ruthless the celebrity business can be.

But because the show has such a terrific cast, I fear it will suffer from what I call "Grey's Anatomy syndrome," where the depth and breadth of the cast gives the illusion of an ensemble drama. But it's not a true ensemble in the sense that there is -- or I think there should be -- one lead, and a supporting cast, with the screen time divided accordingly.

[Dee]

On 12/1/2016 at 9:56 AM, Eolivet said:

I also don't think (unless I'm misremembering), Ginny has dealt with racism.

It's really interesting how Pitch has totally sidestepped the misogynoir Ginny's faced throughout her career.

The show has gone to great lengths to emphasize issues Ginny has had to deal with as a woman in a male dominated sport; but in a world where Black female athletes, of all stripes, are routinely pilloried for everything and nothing at all, ignoring experiences so intrinsic to Ginny's character is a huge missed opportunity by the writers.

Edited December 18, 2016 by Dee

[Clanstarling]

Thank you @Dee for introducing me to a new word (for me, anyway).  It indeed would be something worth addressing in this show.

Edited December 18, 2016 by Clanstarling

[DearEvette]

4 hours ago, Dee said:

It's really interesting how Pitch has totally sidestepped the misogynoir Ginny's faced throughout her career.

The show has gone to great lengths to emphasize issues Ginny has had to deal with as a woman in a male dominated sport; but in a world where Black female athletes, of all stripes, are routinely pilloried for everything and nothing at all, ignoring experiences so intrinsic to Ginny's character is a huge missed opportunity by the writers.

 

I kind of agree with this.  I think on the one hand it does make sense that inside the clubhouse the overwhelming focus is going to be on her gender because that is the most glaring difference about her.  There are players of all ethnicities on team, but Ginny is the only woman.  By concentrating primarily on the players' reaction to her inclusion I do think hr gender is the most jarring thing.

But yeah, it would have been nice to see her race addressed more explicitly, maybe not solely in focusing on the misogynoir, but really by looking more closely at what her ascension means to black americans.  I mean they could have really just read through all of the reactions to Monae Davis to see how different people reacted to her.  Most of it I do think they are getting right because a lot of people were thrilled an supportive of her across the board.  But she did get some resentment and outright hate by mostly white fans whereas she was lionized by black fans especially black women.  So I do agree  that element is missing.

However.... how well they handle it would depend on the writing room.  It could go wrong.  Like ranging from hilariously wrong to just cringe-inducing wrong.  I can give writers credit for wanting to go there and attempting it, but depending on the results sometimes you just wish they'd leave stuff alone. 

[Dee]

17 hours ago, DearEvette said:

However.... how well they handle it would depend on the writing room.  It could go wrong.  Like ranging from hilariously wrong to just cringe-inducing wrong.  I can give writers credit for wanting to go there and attempting it, but depending on the results sometimes you just wish they'd leave stuff alone. 

Oh I totally agree with you that there is definitely the potential for the writers to royally screw up by attempting to address those issues. Which is another terrible byproduct of monochromatic writers rooms.

That said, I'd rather them try and fail, than ignore the obvious elephant in the room altogether; especially when Pitch goes out of its way to keep drawing parallels between Ginny and Jackie Robinson.

Plus it would allow the show to underscore the necessity of intersectionality (especially juxtaposed with Amelia's entire existence), as a practical way of life, instead of an abstract theory.

[possibilities]

I don't think it's reasonable for them to not try, or to try and fail. They need to hire people who know what they're doing. There's really no reasonable excuse to not do so. I realize that expecting this to happen is only possible in an alternate reality, but I don't think we should give them a pass on failing. If not now, when?

[Irlandesa]

On 12/18/2016 at 7:04 AM, Dee said:

It's really interesting how Pitch has totally sidestepped the misogynoir Ginny's faced throughout her career.

The show has gone to great lengths to emphasize issues Ginny has had to deal with as a woman in a male dominated sport; but in a world where Black female athletes, of all stripes, are routinely pilloried for everything and nothing at all, ignoring experiences so intrinsic to Ginny's character is a huge missed opportunity by the writers.

I'm of two minds on this.  On one hand, connecting the leaked photos ep with the targeting of Ginny because she's a black woman (a la what Leslie Jones has experienced) would have been an ideal time to bring misogynoir into the equation. On the other hand, there were only ten episodes this season and hopefully it's something they can weave in later seasons.  Like, for instance, if Ginny were ever to get on her social media accounts, which I assume are handled by Amelia's assistant, she might be stunned by what she sees there.  Or we could get a media type, probably fake, make subtle comments that aren't outright sexist/racist but a double standard/innuendo starts to creep in over time.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Irlandesa