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S02.E04: When Will Josh and His Friend Leave Me Alone?

ElectricBoogaloo

By ElectricBoogaloo
in Crazy Ex-Girlfriend [V]

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Scott

Scott

On November 12, 2016 at 7:53 PM, angora said:

 I loved "We Tapped That Ass," too.  All the cheeky references were fantastic - I think my favorite was the "uh-5-6-7-8!" in response to the "how many times on average" question 

"Please, not on my chest" was what had me laughing so hard I had to pause and rewind.

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PatternRec

PatternRec

Haven't read the thread yet; I'm only half way through the episode. Great so far. I needed this - I haven't laughed out loud this much in a while at a TV show.

One thing disappointed me so far: the casting of Vella Lovell's parents. Apparently black plus white equals Indian? Will report back if the context changes...

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STOPSHOUTING

STOPSHOUTING

On 11/11/2016 at 9:26 PM, Irlandesa said:

I just can't with this week.  I just can't.  I've been heartbroken.  Scared.  Sad.  And I looked to this show for relief and then I read this after the show. I think any other week or year I could handle this news but I just can't.  I love Greg.  More importantly, I love Santino's voice and performance.  To lose his character, even if it's a happy ending, is the last thing I can handle.  It's to the point where I might have to drop the show even though I love it but I don't know if I can handle any more holes in my heart.  Suddenly it makes sense why they cast someone new.

Hilariously, up until the point of reading that article, I thought this show had finally done what I looked for and made me feel normal.  I adored both the "shit show" song and the tap dance bit which I suspect may have been trying to do a "Moses supposes" thing.

I'm also glad that Scott was the wrong to come up with ideas whether it's "options" or him taking on more responsibility at home.  I wish we could have had a bit more insight into how she reached that conclusion.  They did well at explaining that she got pushed back towards law school but what was it that led her to give herself permission to have an abortion?

Well, that might just about do it for me, too. This was my very favorite show of last year, and I hadn't had a chance to watch any episodes this year and then, after our national nightmare, I decided this show would cheer me up. Well, not so much. Even before I clicked the link above and saw that Santino/Greg was, indeed, actually gone, I wasn't really feeling the Crazy Ex-love this year. The songs weren't as clever. The plot was ho-hum, and now, without their best singer/dancer? I mean, the only real highlights this year have been the Shit Show song, and the Josh-Greg tap dance. ("Not on my chest" was a great smart/silly fun visual gag, which the show has had way too few of so far.)

The first season was full of crazy catchy, hilariously funny, as well as slyly subversive, songs. See: Sex With A Stranger ("please don't be a murderer"), The Sexy Getting Ready Song ("This is how you get ready?!? This is horrifying! ... I'm forever changed by what I just seen.") or Feeling Kinda' Naughty ("I wanna wear your skin like a dress" ... mocking 'cutesie' stalking behavior) 

This year's numbers have been visually appealing, but lyrically and emotionally ho-hum, and the increasing lean on gross-out humor ... Maybe it's just me, but that seems like misjudging their audience. I, personally, associate bodily function humor with teenage boys, or those that still act like them; not exactly Crazy Ex's core demo. 

They burned through so much story last year, and then their renewal was so unlikely ... I'm feeling like the show is just aimless now, musically and functionally. And totally lacks that wacky vibe that made it work so very well. Even the theme song is utterly lackluster, non-descriptive and unmemorable.

Yes, if this were real life, Rebecca shouldn't be with anyone until she can get herself together ... But this isn't real life. It's a silly, fun, musical/rom-com. I mean, at least that's what I watched it for. Please note: I'm not condemning difficult, serious storylines. Paula choosing to end her pregnancy is fine, but I agree with a previous poster from last week that I'm more than a little sick of the mid-40s "accidental" pregnancy storyline. But even stuff like that lacks punch when it was literally never discussed before it occurred, other than a single mention of the code word "options," and then Paula doesn't even fill Rebecca in after the fact. To me, if you wanted to send a political and empowerment message, you've just wasted that opportunity. 

I always liked Heather, so working her back into the story, despite the awkward parental ret-con which definitely does NOT track with Greg's nocturnal visits from last season, is fine, but was ANYONE actually missing Valencia? I know I wasn't. 

I don't really want to watch someone "get it together;" there are plenty of shows that explore dramatic reality. I'm just not actually interested in any arc I've seen so far: Paula goes to law school, Rachel and Heather become roommates (potentially with Valencia joining them) ... Just, yawn. At least for me. The wink-wink, nudge-nudge stuff (e.g. Greg saying he 'ships WiJosh and Daryl) is OK, but a show going that meta in ep 3 of its second season doesn't bode well for future longevity. Maybe it's good that my also-beloved Galavant ended after season two, even though that one really nailed it through both, managing self-referential callbacks, but also moving the plot along and staying arch and entertaining throughout.

Not loving the show this season really makes me sad. 

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Serena

Serena

On 16/11/2016 at 9:19 AM, PatternRec said:

One thing disappointed me so far: the casting of Vella Lovell's parents. Apparently black plus white equals Indian? Will report back if the context changes...

The casting echoes the actress' real life parents.

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PatternRec

PatternRec

18 hours ago, Serena said:

The casting echoes the actress' real life parents.

Yeah I'm not sure what to think at this point. While I was watching the episode a quick Google search seemed to point to Indian-American decent. 

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angora

angora

4 hours ago, PatternRec said:

Yeah I'm not sure what to think at this point. While I was watching the episode a quick Google search seemed to point to Indian-American decent. 

Optimistic Cynic posted this video upthread.  It's an interview with Vella Lovell and Vincent Rodriguez III talking about race, Hollywood, and Crazy Ex-Girlfriend.  Starting around 11:40, talking about the acting she did in college, Vella mentions that she's mixed, specifically citing Black and white and adding "and about a million things in between."  Elsewhere in the video, she talks being cast as various ethnicities and mentions that she tends to get cast as South Asian a lot.

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kathe5133

kathe5133

Hey, maybe she's Irish. I have completely stopped making assumptions about someone's pedigree based on hair/eye/skin color/texture/density.  I've seen blonde, light skinned folks who had an African American parent and folks with very dark skin who have a white parent........  Genetics is a crapshoot.  It really doesn't make any difference to me.  I am able to suspend my belief when various characters burst into song along with full orchestral back up, so if the two folks who are playing Heather's parents are supposed to be Heather's parents, I'm on board!

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Nancybeth

Nancybeth

So sad to hear that Santino is really leaving!  I'm hoping we'll see him back occasionally, at least.  His song this week (It Was a Shitshow) is maybe my favorite all season.

Did anyone else think Rebecca looked like Kate Gosselin after her makeover??

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Rinaldo

Rinaldo

23 minutes ago, Nancybeth said:

So sad to hear that Santino is really leaving!  I'm hoping we'll see him back occasionally, at least. 

I'm (privately) pretty sure we will, at suitable future moments. I'm equally sure that there will be no publicity about it beforehand and his appearance will come as a surprise, if the creators so desire: they've proven that they're good at keeping such details secret till a show has aired.

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PatternRec

PatternRec

4 hours ago, angora said:

Optimistic Cynic posted this video upthread.  It's an interview with Vella Lovell and Vincent Rodriguez III talking about race, Hollywood, and Crazy Ex-Girlfriend.  Starting around 11:40, talking about the acting she did in college, Vella mentions that she's mixed, specifically citing Black and white and adding "and about a million things in between."  Elsewhere in the video, she talks being cast as various ethnicities and mentions that she tends to get cast as South Asian a lot.

I didn't see that one until after I'd posted. 

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poppy-

poppy-

(edited)

I'm ok with rolling with the left-field casting of Heather's parents.  I think they just wanted to cast that DJ-voiced man as the dad because everything he says feels like a warm hug.

The whole Douche plot and acting was a little too camp for my tastes.  Heather's winning was {Heather voice} like, ridiculously predictable.
Plus the the poo humor on the 911 call took it to a full unnecessary level of cringe.
 

But the episode is still a win for me. "We can't unscrew each other's friends".  True dat, Greg.  Bonus: tap dance in sneakers. 

Edited by poppy-
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aradia22

aradia22

(edited)

"Life doesn't happen to you. You make decisions." "We have chemistry, of course, but that's a formula for divorce." Ah! This show. The truth. But they also managed to toy with the shippers with all the romance. And of course Santino singing in that baritone (or was it baritenor?) range all the while rejecting her. LOVE. It did sound very canned though. I know he was singing but it was so low and the lip sync was so casual that it almost didn't seem like it was coming out of his mouth. That's a problem with lip syncing. It's hard to mimic the effort sometimes. But God that was some gorgeous singing.

"What's wrong with me? Why doesn't anyone want me?" Too much realness.

"OK, well maybe he didn't use the best words... but that's why he's going back to school." LOL

Yeah, I get why Paula doesn't like her sons.

So Scott brought up the "options." 

LOL at the Josh and Greg "ghosts." Oh, I'm sorry. "Memory spirits." XD Talk therapy is great and all but I feel like her therapist should be doing more about the whole hallucinations thing.

Edited by aradia22
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AnnaRose

AnnaRose

16 minutes ago, aradia22 said:

And of course Santino singing in that baritone (or was it baritenor?) range all the while rejecting her. LOVE. It did sound very canned though. I know he was singing but it was so low and the lip sync was so casual that it almost didn't seem like it was coming out of his mouth. That's a problem with lip syncing. It's hard to mimic the effort sometimes. But God that was some gorgeous singing.

Yes!  I loved his vocals, but it was so distracting watching him lip-sync to his recording.   He is super talented though, and I will miss him and Greg.

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aradia22

aradia22

I didn't love how bro-y it was but I loved how they went with a classic musical theatre style for the Josh/Greg duet. The fact that they brought back the guy from the taco festival was AMAZING. Santino was great but I think it was an even better showing for Vincent because it let him show what he can do outside of the pop stuff they usually give Josh.

I love the show sneakily telling us about Heather... Davis... and her parents, but turning it into a joke about Rebecca's self-involvement.

The 911 call going public is contrived but I'll let it go.

"Memory spirits will not mess with Mama Paula." LOVE

Why is that Jane the Virgin actress here? I do like having Stephnie Weir pop in and out as Karen. I used to love MadTV.

You do not need to use a douche. Don't be putting fancy or fragranced things up in there. 

This was a weird plot for Rebecca to stumble into but it makes sense. This Miss Douche thing is another version of the butter billboard. She wants someone to tell her what to do. She's attracted to things that seem to be pointing her in the right direction. 

Ah! I love that Scott was yelling at Tommy and then remembered he forgot to pick him up. 

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aradia22

aradia22

"Sure if you had 5 years, a team of professionals, and different DNA." Too much truth.

Heather's parents are adorable. The Makeover song was grating but I liked that they went Toni Basil. I'm not sure she ended up as a Coachella mermaid. More like Farrah Fawcett without the feathered hair.

I feel like women infantilizing themselves (makeover song, triangle song) and faux-empowerment messages (Put Yourself First, "This is about feeling good about myself. I finally feel like I've found the true, authentic me.") are two of Rachel's pet issues.

"Whatever you're going through right now, it'll get better. I promise." Ah, see, there's the old Josh. If she were still in love with him, that would have been a moment. I feel like that's what we were missing the first few episodes in this season. He has a way of talking that if you're looking for affection and reassurance, you can fill in the blanks.

"Rebecca, sweetie, you don't have to do anything you started [...] Yes, you tried a lot of different things and we supported you every time you wanted to quit something." 

Again, I love the Davis family. I don't want Rebecca to keep crashing with them but I want them to stick around. The show is also sneakily talking about the effects of all these parenting styles (Rebecca, Greg, Josh, Heather) without being the typical indictment of slacker millennials. 

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aradia22

aradia22

Wait, Miss Douche is now a pageant? In her new outfit, Rebecca did look more like a Coachella mermaid or at least more bohemian.

I laughed so hard at the spotlight continuing to follow Rebecca around.

Yay! A win for Paula!

"At least we still have Heather. She'll need us for the rest of her life." "Honey, she won something! How is that even possible?" God, I love them.

Heather and Rebecca are going to live together now? INTO THIS. But Rebecca's place didn't burn down. Can she afford to move?

The last scene with Paula's family was sweet. I do wish she'd told Rebecca, not because she's obligated to but because she still feels like she's ashamed to or at least like she doesn't want to burden Rebecca and friendship is a two way street.

By the way, Rebecca's mental illness/fantasies are proving to be a great way of externalizing internal conflict for a visual medium. I loved the last bit with memory spirit Greg. 

What is this "Sugar Face" thing? Are they not going back to the boba place? 

Valencia didn't look horrible at the end. Just... normal.

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aradia22

aradia22

Quote

I think one of the goals of the show is to get us to stop thinking in terms like ships and teams and endgames.

I agree but I also think that stuff has its place. It's like the romantic or personal drama equivalent of a fair play mystery whodunnit or setting up the heroes and villains in some kind of action movie/superhero movie/etc. I get breaking up tropes but if you have to choose someone in the end (instead of having the character end up single, which is a choice that's unique to romances in that in can still feel satisfying unlike if you never solve the mystery in a detective story) then you don't want to feel like the writers just went "that guy!" There's a balance to be achieved between inevitability and fate and building up relationships so you understand why people should be together. To take an older example, you don't want to conjure up Professor Bhaer so she doesn't end up with fan favorite Laurie because then she isn't a literary spinster and she doesn't end up with the perfect guy and then everyone's just miserable.

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kieyra

kieyra

(edited)

Someone upthread mentioned Yael Groblass (from Jane the Virgin) and why she was in the episode. I'm actually wondering how much behind-the-scenes connection there is between the two shows. In the last couple of weeks, both shows have featured the phrase "tap that ass" prominently (I believe the same week), both shows had major female characters have abortions without "very special episode" status, and this week Jane the Virgin had a Crazy-Ex style musical production number, a spoof of a Grease number as seen in someone's imagination. (To be fair, JtV makes use of music and dance on occasion, and tons of fantasy sequences.)

They both also have strong feminist messages and diverse casting, as well as prominent gay/bi couples. 

Edited by kieyra
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Jal

Jal

On 11/12/2016 at 4:06 AM, Blakeston said:

I'd always assumed Heather lived with her parents. For her to have a place in the same complex as Rebecca's, it was the only explanation that made much sense. (My incorrect assumption was that she was South Asian - it never even occurred to me until this episode that she had black and white ancestry.)

She could be adopted, but I doubt it. I never understand why show creators change every Indian actress's background into Spanish or mixed race (usually black+white) backgrounds. Doing it now and then is fine, but what's the big deal with matching the actor's own background? There are decent Indian actors out there. It's a little weird.

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femmefan1946

femmefan1946

To take an older example, you don't want to conjure up Professor Bhaer so she doesn't end up with fan favorite Laurie because then she isn't a literary spinster and she doesn't end up with the perfect guy and then everyone's just miserable.

You and I must be the only ones here who got that reference.  (But Laurie was useless and Professor Baer felt like she married him to have a father figure.)

I never understand why show creators change every Indian actress's background into Spanish or mixed race

Yes, Kal Penn's character on Designated Survivor has some bushwah suburban name, too.

Is it because the US has so few Indian immigrants? Here in Canada there is a large and widespread , to say nothing of diverse, Indian community. In Britain too. ( OT, I remember an actor saying that it seemed very strange to him that DaVinci's Inquest, (1998-2005), set in Vancouver, had several black police officers, but no Indians or Asians. Vancouver even 20 years ago had two prosperous suburbs where signage was as likely to be in Chinese (Richmond) or Punjabi (Surrey) as in English. )

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Rinaldo

Rinaldo

However valid the discussion of what sometimes happens to Indian actresses, that seems irrelevant to Vella Lovell, who (see earlier discussion on this page) identifies her ancestry as mixed black + white + other.

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dubbel zout

dubbel zout

17 hours ago, SmithW6079 said:

Leaving aside the politics, it really bothered me how cavalierly they treated Paula's abortion. If she was barely a few weeks pregnant, why would they even bother to tell her kids -- just for some tasteless punchline? 

Why wouldn't she tell them? It's nothing to be ashamed of. 

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SmithW6079

SmithW6079

27 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Why wouldn't she tell them? It's nothing to be ashamed of. 

"Hey, kids, Mommy's pregnant, but a baby will really interfere with my plans to go to law school, so I'm just going to get rid of it."

Parents really don't have to tell their kids everything. In my opinion, this is one of them, whether it was an abortion or a miscarriage, because she was barely a few weeks along. That's my opinion.

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Irlandesa

Irlandesa

We don't know how her kid found out.  They are little terrors.  Did they eavesdrop on the conversations his parents had?  Did he snoop in her phone to see where she was that afternoon? 

Or did they sit down and discuss where they were headed and why? 

I get the "keep it private" argument.  On the other hand, there is a good argument to be made for sharing this kind of information as well.  There's such a stigma around abortion and while I completely get why people keep it private, I also wonder if the secrecy surrounding abortion helps contribute to the "otherness" of it.  Only "certain kind of people" have abortions whereas people like Paula would not.  In the future, when their children think of abortion, they will know it's something that a woman like their mother had at one point.

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theatremouse

theatremouse

(edited)

I mean, her oldest was (I thought) something like 16? If her recoup time were a day or two of feeling crappy (physically, not even touching on emotionally) and they needed the older one to help out with the younger one, or even just plain didn't want to lie to their existing kids about why she even needed to recoup from anything, I think it's reasonable to have discussed it with the kids? It's not like their kids are kindergartners. I'm kind of pro the concept of being honest with one's children. Especially if they're teens, the issue of being mature enough to comprehend the discussion isn't a factor. Super little kids who wouldn't know what it means to begin with I could see skirting it or deciding it's not something they'd want to get into, but in this case I didn't find it odd they'd have been up front about it, and I don't see it as only there to support a one-liner.

Not saying I'd expect every parent to have that conversation with their teen-kids, but I don't think it's particularly unusual that Paula did.

Edited by theatremouse
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Navianna

Navianna

I would have been ok with anybody else leaving the show, even Rebecca (though it would be kinda pointless since she's the crazy ex-girlfriend) but not Greg. I mean I get that Santino was the one without the longer contract but still... Just when their relationship stopped being so toxic, when he finally admitted he loved her. It was harder to enjoy the next episodes without him

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stillshimpy

stillshimpy

(edited)
Quote

Parents really don't have to tell their kids everything. In my opinion, this is one of them, whether it was an abortion or a miscarriage, because she was barely a few weeks along. That's my opinion.

 
 

There are a few narrative reasons that the show would have chosen to do this and none of them are solely for a punchline, cheap or otherwise.  One would be a nice signal to the audience that this isn't going to be treated as a mournful event, but as a medical procedure on par with any other relatively minor medical procedure.  "I'll get it, seeing as you just had your tonsils out!"   It's the show stating that: yeah, this isn't turning into a Very Special Episode at any point. "  I thought that part was sort of nicely done and a good way to take a shortcut.   They were just going to treat this as a medical procedure and more importantly, so was Paula, hence telling her teenage son.  

Secondly, and really importantly, it informs the audience on just how weird it is that Paula did not tell Rebecca.  That's a good signal on the stuff that isn't being said between them.  We, the audience, know that Paula was comfortable enough with her decision to chuckle at her son yelling that.   So then why does she not tell Rebecca?  It's not about the abortion, that's clear "Seeing as you just had an abortion!"  ....it's about an emotional distance and loss of intimacy between Rebecca and Paula.  It's a Danger Will Robinson sign.  

Edited by stillshimpy
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