Scientology: Miscavige and Sons

[bethster2000]

My uncle was a Scientologist.  He was also profoundly mentally ill throughout his life, and suffered from terrible depressions.  Because of the "Church" stance on psychiatric medicine, he never got the drugs that could have helped him so much.

He shot himself on December 11, 2011.  He left what little he had to the "Church."

[Wings]

5 hours ago, deaja said:

I fell asleep last night while watching Going Clear.  If you ever want to have a night of weird dreams, it seems falling asleep to that documentary will do the trick.

I do wonder if LRH really believed the stuff or if he just wanted to make money. 

Money.   You have to have business savvy to build an empire.  Never did this brilliant but mentally, skewed man set out to help the world; he wanted to own it! 

[spiderpig]

6 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I  am not a documentary person but I am curious.  Did LRH actually intend to build a religion/cult or did it just "happen" around him?  

Personal opinion here, but I think Trump launched his presidential gig on a whim and never expected it to spiral the way it did. Same with LRH.

LRH was a gross, digusting liar, cheat and bigamist - but I thing CO$ followed the same trajectory.  A joke that became reality.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, bethster2000 said:

My uncle was a Scientologist.  He was also profoundly mentally ill throughout his life, and suffered from terrible depressions.  Because of the "Church" stance on psychiatric medicine, he never got the drugs that could have helped him so much.

He shot himself on December 11, 2011.  He left what little he had to the "Church."

Terrible. :( I'm sorry.

[candall]

On ‎12‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 2:41 PM, justjen said:

The Church of Scientology in Atlanta is 1.2 miles away from me (not far from a Waffle House) and I would be willing to try to get audited For the Cause. I think I did it once in college for a free tshirt or hacky sack or something.

Just my two cents, but please stay away from all that--those people aren't playing and they're relentless if they ever decide they don't like you.  Don't go poking the bear!

I even worry about Leah Remini a little bit, if this show is getting half the attention the promos claim.  No telling what the fallout might be for her, or when, but I'm sure it's being discussed behind one set of closed doors or another.

***************

Sidenote:  it makes me a little sad when Leah keeps saying "The government needs to do something!"  Bad timing, sweetheart--Co$ is now about 793d on the list of shady operations "the government" needs to handle.

[bethster2000]

1 hour ago, spiderpig said:

I think Trump launched his presidential gig on a whim and never expected it to spiral the way it did.

I don't want to get into politics here, but THANK YOU.  I felt, and I still feel, that there was no one more surprised about winning than Trump.  I don't think he thought it would ever happen.

Back on topic: the last conversation I had with my uncle before his suicide was via email.  He had not ever totally disconnected from our family, but we were not close, either.  I heard through the family grapevine that Uncle was having another terrible bout of depression and was unable to do even basic things, like eating or getting out of bed.

I myself suffer from bipolar disorder and am well acquainted with miserable depressions, so I reached out to Uncle.  He was not answering his telephone (although, in hindsight, it might have been shut off due to lack of funds...every damn spare cent the man had went to CO$).  So I sent him an email.  I told him that I loved him and that I was worried about him, and that I understood what he was going through, and that I had a good psychiatrist who promised to help Uncle find a good shrink where he lived.  Please get to a doctor and get on meds, Uncle, I pleaded.  Please, I promise it will get better.

I received an email back from him a day later.  The word "tirade" immediately comes to mind.  I was just a stupid fool if I let people put chemicals inside my brain.  How could I be such an idiot to trust my fate to a doctor who doesn't really give a damn about me and is only concerned about lining his own pockets?  Didn't I realize that psychiatry was just a waste of time?  Didn't I see that those medications are just deadly poison created just to destroy my mind?  Oh, and by the way...you're not my niece anymore.  Your father would be ashamed of you and what you have become (Dad passed away in 1998).  Leave me alone.  If you write to me again, I will just ignore you, so don't bother.  And one more thing: Fuck off.

That was early 2010.  He committed suicide in December 2011.  

Scientology kills.

[spiderpig]

4 minutes ago, bethster2000 said:

Scientology kills.

What a tragic story, bethster.  That's what I hate about this horrible cult:  they prey upon the vulnerable and suck the life out of them.

Have any of the "parishioners" found true enlightenment, or are they just susceptible to the vague promises of CO$ (at a big, fat price, padding the offshore accounts of a certain few)?

Once again, have to go back to George Orwell.  Animal Farm.  "All animals are equal.  But some are more equal than others."

[fireice13]

In regards to the IRS tax-exemption it is now absurdly easy to get as proven by John Oliver when he set up his fake church Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption

This actually, funnily enough, does relate to Scientology in another way because when Oliver shut down his church he told viewers that if they want to send money to a fake church to send it to Scientology. 

[fastiller]

On 12/20/2016 at 7:55 PM, GenL said:

I'm trying to read Jenna's book (over 100 pages in and she's only 9), and she just did mention celebrating Christmas. 

I just got back from NYC. As I was crossing the street in Times Square, I looked to my left and saw a sign for Scientology. I wanted to take a picture to share with you guys, but it's Christmas time in the city and I was stuck in a wave of bodies and couldn't stop. 

I used to work in one of the buildings connected to Grand Central Terminal and over the years would see $cienos set up at a table in the 42nd Street Passage.  Whenever I'd pass them I'd 'cough' really loudly "CLAMS!" just to see their reaction.

And @bethster2000 - my heart goes out to you; you are so right: CO$ kills.  People mean nothing to them outside of the money &/or prestige they can bring.

[DangerousMinds]

15 hours ago, candall said:

Just my two cents, but please stay away from all that--those people aren't playing and they're relentless if they ever decide they don't like you.  Don't go poking the bear!

I even worry about Leah Remini a little bit, if this show is getting half the attention the promos claim.  No telling what the fallout might be for her, or when, but I'm sure it's being discussed behind one set of closed doors or another.

***************

Sidenote:  it makes me a little sad when Leah keeps saying "The government needs to do something!"  Bad timing, sweetheart--Co$ is now about 793d on the list of shady operations "the government" needs to handle.

I don't know, there is a LOT of potential tax revenue there.

[Wings]

I agee. I think it might be a good investment for government to cut them off at the knees.  They are losing a lot of money. Tom Miscavidge in jail would be delightful, he could hang with Jeffs.  

[Wings]

I have to believe that steps have been taken to keep Leah and her family safe.  When you have a goon squad with guns and tasers it is a big job. Should anything happen to her they know where to go so unless DM loses it, he won't touch her. 

[candall]

1 hour ago, DangerousMinds said:

I don't know, there is a LOT of potential tax revenue there.

Soooo true, but I can see congressional majority conservatives being reluctant to de-certify "a church" from tax exempt status because that would not be popular with their constituents.  

The same crowd that believes the NRA's slippery slope argument that the Second Amendment will disappear in a puff of smoke if sales of semi-automatics are ever impinged would also tend to believe:   first those wacky Scientologists and the next thing you know, MY right to worship and freedom of religion are at risk.

[zxy556575]

Ya know, if it weren't for the Sea Org, I probably wouldn't give much of a fig what these cultists do, or believe.

It's the Sea Org members who are recruited as children, physically and sexually abused, imprisoned, threatened, monitored and cut off from family, made to work 16+ hours a day, paid pennies, and put in the Rehabilitation Project Force or Hole for years. As they age into their 70s and even 80s, they are denied medical care and still forced to do manual labor for long hours. All this as they fail, for decades, to make any progress on their own Bridge to Freedom.

Estimates I've seen put SO* membership between 3-4K total -- please, please wake up, people!

 

 

* Look at me, all using abbreviations like a pro. (Which btw, just that part of Hubbard's theology would have put me off. The man enforced confusing abbreviations for everything. I saw a letter he'd written to a friend called Forrest > Hubbard called him Forry > which he wrote as 4E.)

[veronicamers]

2 hours ago, candall said:

Soooo true, but I can see congressional majority conservatives being reluctant to de-certify "a church" from tax exempt status because that would not be popular with their constituents.  

The same crowd that believes the NRA's slippery slope argument that the Second Amendment will disappear in a puff of smoke if sales of semi-automatics are ever impinged would also tend to believe:   first those wacky Scientologists and the next thing you know, MY right to worship and freedom of religion are at risk.

I agree. A better avenue to bring congressional attention to this is by a former church member engaging their member of Congress or senator on the abuse they've suffered. If a representative or senator was to take up the cause on behalf of one of their constituents with a human rights angle (and they sit on the right committe), they could ask for congressional hearings and get a lot of this stuff out in the open and on the record. It's not a legal proceeding, but think what the congressional hearings on doping did to hurt Mark McGwire in the long run. And the damage it did to that horrible pharma guy, Martin Shkreli. I live in DC and my career is in government/congressional relations so I am going to brainstorm some good candidates to take up the cause!

[RedheadZombie]

On December 13, 2016 at 4:23 PM, Neurochick said:

I watched the documentary "Going Clear" and I'm going to binge-watch this A&E series, I'd forgotten it started. 

I get why people might want to join a "religion" like Scientology.  Most people are social beings, most people like the idea of belonging to something bigger than themselves, that's why people join gangs and organizations and clubs, social media, message boards.  Human beings aren't solitary creatures. 

BUT, the thing about Scientology, is that they sell the idea that "we're spiritual beings," okay, fine.  But once they start doing shit that's against the law like signing a billion year contract, now that's just nuts to me.  There are some Christian religions where, if a person leaves or is dis-fellowship ed, and their family is still in the religion, the family can't have contact with them because they're "unclean" or some shit like that but most of the time it's not enforced anymore. COS goes WAY too far with their shit.  They get people who want to be part of something, tell them we'll take care of you, and then you become like someone in prison, get so used to the institution life that the thought of living outside the institution is terrifying.

The Amish still banish people who leave.  But for many Amish communities, when their children come of age and are rebellious, they are send out to live with the "English".  They can dress normally, drive, even drink and use drugs.  When it's over, they can make an informed decision to either be baptized and stay in the community, or leave and be banished. 

You would never see CO$ encourage youth to see what's outside their community.  They discourage, if not forbid, psychiatry, psychiatric meds, researching the "church", etc.

i think they have issues with many meds, even when they're not psychiatric.   The young man who died of pneumonic while is CO$ care (mentioned in a recent interview), was receiving pain meds instead of antibiotics.  They certainly love sedatives.  Lisa McPherson was receiving sedatives as well.  Instead of real medical care, they put them in a drugged semi-comatose state.  Therefore, they end up killing even the young and otherwise healthy people.  If this happened in a hospital, police, the press, and lawyers would be all over it.  I don't understand how these people get away with it. 

[fastiller]

23 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

The Amish still banish people who leave.  But for many Amish communities, when their children come of age and are rebellious, they are send out to live with the "English".  They can dress normally, drive, even drink and use drugs.  When it's over, they can make an informed decision to either be baptized and stay in the community, or leave and be banished. 

...

RUMSPRINGA!!! (one of my favourite words)

[juliet73]

I'm not sure where to post this,  so I'll ask here... Who do Scientologists worship at the "church"?  Do they pray to L. Ron? And how did they ever get classified as a church?  It is a social group, not a religious group.  

[mbaywife123]

Davy (troll that he is)  may want to read the story of Billy goat Gruff and the troll ( him) under the "bridge".

[magpye29]

  ON 12/20/2016 AT 11:13 PM, ZANNE SAID:

Quote

bookselling: makes me laugh, I'm sure Tom Cruise is buying 90% of the books they "sell

When I was a bookstore manager in the early 90s, we would every so often receive a shipment of LRH's books.  They were fat and heavy.  Other books that came off our sales list would have their covers stripped off and sent to the publisher for credit, but we always had to return the LRH books intact so they could be stored until their next attempt to juice his sales.  The thing is, you could tell the books had been around a while because the covers were sort of scuffed.

[Wings]

On 12/21/2016 at 3:38 PM, spiderpig said:

Personal opinion here, but I think Trump launched his presidential gig on a whim and never expected it to spiral the way it did. Same with LRH.

LRH was a gross, digusting liar, cheat and bigamist - but I thing CO$ followed the same trajectory.  A joke that became reality.

Excellent analogy.  How did I miss this post?!

I think you are right. I recind my previous notion. He was too mentally skewed to lay out a plan of this magnitude.  It happened. 

[spiderpig]

19 minutes ago, wings707 said:

Excellent analogy.  How did I miss this post?!

I think you are right. I recind my previous notion. He was too mentally skewed to lay out a plan of this magnitude.  It happened. 

And I thought you didn't love me anymore, wings... (sad face)

[Wings]

30 minutes ago, spiderpig said:

And I thought you didn't love me anymore, wings... (sad face)

Aww, never happen. :^)

[Pollock]

19 hours ago, fireice13 said:

In regards to the IRS tax-exemption it is now absurdly easy to get as proven by John Oliver when he set up his fake church Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption

It wasn't easy for Scientology to get it (back in fact, they got it in the 50's if I'm not mistaken and lost it during the 60's). They trolled the IRS with hundreds and hundreds of frivoulous lawsuits, they harassed some of their workers, infiltrated their offices, to copy some documents, bug the place and make others disappear... They won against the IRS by drawning them. Scientology is Capone's wet dream. That's why it was treated as the big deal it was for them to finally get it, and announced by Miscavige in that big event all documentaries keep showing. 

Edit : I quoted you because of the subject to add to it, not to correct you as my post comes across I feel ! And because I was excited to see a fellow Oliver viewer here too ! :)

Edited December 23, 2016 by Pollock

[candall]

15 hours ago, lordonia said:

Ya know, if it weren't for the Sea Org, I probably wouldn't give much of a fig what these cultists do, or believe.

It's the Sea Org members who are recruited as children, physically and sexually abused, imprisoned, threatened, monitored and cut off from family, made to work 16+ hours a day, paid pennies, and put in the Rehabilitation Project Force or Hole for years. As they age into their 70s and even 80s, they are denied medical care and still forced to do manual labor for long hours. All this as they fail, for decades, to make any progress on their own Bridge to Freedom.

Estimates I've seen put SO* membership between 3-4K total -- please, please wake up, people!   [...]

Agree.  That "Sea Org" has several elements in common with human trafficking.

But the thing I find most shocking and offensive is that part where they literally lock up their members who have exhibited "bad behavior," i.e. rebellious tendencies, sometimes FOR YEARS.  (I forget the official name for these places.)  There are so many reports from ex-members who were confined and abused before they managed to get away--you'd hardly be able to believe something so outrageous if it weren't such a common thread from so many people.  WTF?!  It's not a "church" or a "social club" when you're running your own private gulag!  Uh . . . hello?   This is not okay.

 

Former members are sure Shelly Miscavige must be under guard in some officially approved place like this.  Nobody's heard from her in ten years, but with Remini raising a stink that her missing person report was ignored and Tony Ortega blogging that "David Miscavige has always known exactly where his wife is, because he put her there," David Miscavige has now produced a recent photo of the two of them together.  Great.  Can Seal Team Six do something for this woman? 

I actually feel, since I truly believe this is happening, I need to be involved with some sort of effort to correct it--it seems morally insufficient to shrug and say "Well, those wacky Scientologists, what're ya gonna do?"  Is there some way to hire someone to hack in and investigate how many other people might be in need of liberation?  Do the Russians accept Go Fund Me jobs?

[MaggieG]

Maybe we need to send Liam Neeson in and he can get them out, Taken style. I'll volunteer to help him.

[Neurochick]

20 hours ago, veronicamers said:

I agree. A better avenue to bring congressional attention to this is by a former church member engaging their member of Congress or senator on the abuse they've suffered. If a representative or senator was to take up the cause on behalf of one of their constituents with a human rights angle (and they sit on the right committe), they could ask for congressional hearings and get a lot of this stuff out in the open and on the record. It's not a legal proceeding, but think what the congressional hearings on doping did to hurt Mark McGwire in the long run. And the damage it did to that horrible pharma guy, Martin Shkreli. I live in DC and my career is in government/congressional relations so I am going to brainstorm some good candidates to take up the cause!

Someone needs to remind congress of The People's Temple and how that ended. 

[Brattinella]

Can we keep political stuff in the political forum, please?  Thanks.

[juliet73]

6 hours ago, candall said:

 

But the thing I find most shocking and offensive is that part where they literally lock up their members who have exhibited "bad behavior," i.e. rebellious tendencies, sometimes FOR YEARS.  (I forget the official name for these places.)  

I believe what are you referring to is the Rehabilitation Project Force or RPF.  In the non-scientology world, they are called PRISON. 

[green]

20 hours ago, juliet73 said:

I'm not sure where to post this,  so I'll ask here... Who do Scientologists worship at the "church"?  Do they pray to L. Ron? And how did they ever get classified as a church?  It is a social group, not a religious group.  

Others can explain this better than me but maybe bumping your question will help for them to see it.

They got church status so they could be tax exempt and according to people here did it by basically threatening the IRS and individual agents thereof with endless lawsuits in something called Operation Snow White.

They don't worship anyone per se.  They are suppose to take endless courses to "cross a bridge" (via these endless courses and auditing) to attain their version of spiritual enlightenment which is basically 180 degrees out of phase with anyone else's definition.  They then get to find out all about some space alien named Xendu or something and seeds and volcanoes and clams and whatever.  A crazy cult founded by an absolute lunatic and now run but a power grabbing, highly sadistic poor excuse for a human being.

[fifty8th]

Quote

They got church status so they could be tax exempt.

Government should just get rid of tax exempt status for religion, would stop Scientology and all the for profit churches plus bring in some tax money.

[mbaywife123]

31 minutes ago, green said:

Others can explain this better than me but maybe bumping your question will help for them to see it.

They got church status so they could be tax exempt and according to people here did it by basically threatening the IRS and individual agents thereof with endless lawsuits in something called Operation Snow White.

They don't worship anyone per se.  They are suppose to take endless courses to "cross a bridge" (via these endless courses and auditing) to attain their version of spiritual enlightenment which is basically 180 degrees out of phase with anyone else's definition.  They then get to find out all about some space alien named Xendu or something and seeds and volcanoes and clams and whatever.  A crazy cult founded by an absolute lunatic and now run but a power grabbing, highly sadistic poor excuse for a human being.

$cientology: The most expensive book club in history.

Your membership lasts for a billion years or until you run out of money or write a bad review.

[green]

37 minutes ago, fifty8th said:

Government should just get rid of tax exempt status for religion, would stop Scientology and all the for profit churches plus bring in some tax money.

OT:  I totally disagree.  Get rid of the rotten apples from exemptions, yes.  But many religious groups and other non-profits use their funds to help the poor and feed the hungry.  Something not likely to happen with their tax money as used by the US government and their over-bloated military budget.

Edited December 23, 2016 by green

[spiderpig]

10 hours ago, MaggieG said:

Maybe we need to send Liam Neeson in and he can get them out, Taken style. I'll volunteer to help him.

I'll volunteer to take Liam Neeson!!!!!!!

[spiderpig]

One video clip that sticks in my mind is from John Sweeney's BBC Panorama expose where Tommy Davis goes after Sweeney both barrels.  "You have NO RIGHT to question MY RELIGION and I am protected by the FIRST AMENDMENT" blah-blah-blah.  (While stalking and imprisoning people)

I want to start a Church of the Dog, where the high deity will be my eternally faithful and adorable canine companion.  Tax exempt status for everybody, and we can exercise our freedom of religion at the local dog park.

[mbaywife123]

1 hour ago, spiderpig said:

One video clip that sticks in my mind is from John Sweeney's BBC Panorama expose where Tommy Davis goes after Sweeney both barrels.  "You have NO RIGHT to question MY RELIGION and I am protected by the FIRST AMENDMENT" blah-blah-blah.  (While stalking and imprisoning people)

I want to start a Church of the Dog, where the high deity will be my eternally faithful and adorable canine companion.  Tax exempt status for everybody, and we can exercise our freedom of religion at the local dog park.

HA! I think I will also start a "church" that worship my cats called: The church of the seven pussies.

All who have catnip and mouse toys are welcome.

[spiderpig]

1 minute ago, mbaywife123 said:

HA! I think I will also start a "church" that worship my cats called: The church of the seven pussies.

All who have catnip and mouse toys are welcome.

I have a cat too.  Can I join?

[mbaywife123]

1 minute ago, spiderpig said:

I have a cat too.  Can I join?

Yes, please be prepared to submit a paw print and vaccination records.

[spiderpig]

3 minutes ago, mbaywife123 said:

Yes, please be prepared to submit a paw print and vaccination records.

For me or for the cat?

[FairyDusted]

LMAO^^^^^^

[mbaywife123]

6 minutes ago, spiderpig said:

For me or for the cat?

Well both you and the cat would be an optimal scenario, two birds with one stone and all..

I will also need proof that all involved are spayed or nutered.

Edited December 24, 2016 by mbaywife123
Brain faster than fingers.

[spiderpig]

I work for a vet, so I've got it covered.

Hey - heads up - because I previously quoted her about John Travolta on this thread - Carrie Fisher had a massive heart attack inflight from London to LAX.

[mbaywife123]

21 minutes ago, spiderpig said:

I work for a vet, so I've got it covered.

Hey - heads up - because I previously quoted her about John Travolta on this thread - Carrie Fisher had a massive heart attack inflight from London to LAX.

Mr. mbay (a major pussy lover) informed me of this when the news was on earlier.

I googled and it appears that she is in critical condition.

[spiderpig]

1 hour ago, mbaywife123 said:

Mr. mbay (a major pussy lover) informed me of this when the news was on earlier.

I googled and it appears that she is in critical condition.

Hang in there Leia.  She's 60.  I feel like a damned fossil!

Keeping on subject (knowing nod to mods) I read awhile ago that Jedi was officially acknowledged as a religiion in the UK.  It ranked something like 20 in the British census.

[Wings]

18 hours ago, candall said:

Agree.  That "Sea Org" has several elements in common with human trafficking.

But the thing I find most shocking and offensive is that part where they literally lock up their members who have exhibited "bad behavior," i.e. rebellious tendencies, sometimes FOR YEARS.  (I forget the official name for these places.)  There are so many reports from ex-members who were confined and abused before they managed to get away--you'd hardly be able to believe something so outrageous if it weren't such a common thread from so many people.  WTF?!  It's not a "church" or a "social club" when you're running your own private gulag!  Uh . . . hello?   This is not okay.

 

Former members are sure Shelly Miscavige must be under guard in some officially approved place like this.  Nobody's heard from her in ten years, but with Remini raising a stink that her missing person report was ignored and Tony Ortega blogging that "David Miscavige has always known exactly where his wife is, because he put her there," David Miscavige has now produced a recent photo of the two of them together.  Great.  Can Seal Team Six do something for this woman? 

I actually feel, since I truly believe this is happening, I need to be involved with some sort of effort to correct it--it seems morally insufficient to shrug and say "Well, those wacky Scientologists, what're ya gonna do?"  Is there some way to hire someone to hack in and investigate how many other people might be in need of liberation?  Do the Russians accept Go Fund Me jobs?

I agree, I feel compelled to help but the question, how, hangs in the air.  I would think their computers could be hacked (call Russia).  Getting brutality on camera would be huge.  The vast number of cameras have a story to tell.  

4 hours ago, mbaywife123 said:

HA! I think I will also start a "church" that worship my cats called: The church of the seven pussies.

All who have catnip and mouse toys are welcome.

Too long, how about Church of Pussy.  It has a Real Housewife ring to it. 

[Wings]

3 hours ago, mbaywife123 said:

Mr. mbay (a major pussy lover) informed me of this when the news was on earlier.

I googled and it appears that she is in critical condition.

Medic on plane gave her CPR for 15 mins and could not get a pulse.  Emergency vehicle had equipment to get her going on a ventilator.  She is not going make it.  

Dead would be considered critical, I suppose.  Excuse the morbid humor, I could not restrain myself. 

[spiderpig]

28 minutes ago, wings707 said:

 

Too long, how about Church of Pussy.  It has a Real Housewife ring to it. 

Yes, but then it would smack of Donald Trump and the mods would warn us not to get political!

[FairyDusted]

oh man! I flove Carrie Fisher.  Sending warm wishes and improved condition and a barrel of fairy dust!

[Brattinella]

Dammit.

[zxy556575]

It's interesting, as I browse around ex-Scientology sites, to see how many people leave that organization and then replace it with another belief system or religion. I'm not dissing that at all, but wonder if perhaps the people who are drawn to Scientology in the first place have a deeper need for structure and hierarchy.

Here's the pitch: Help save the planet, live a fulfilled and ethical life, experience peace, joy, and success beyond your wildest dreams. Just follow these rules; no need to think.

Personally, I hate being told what to do (many times to my detriment) and would never give up my free will or sarcastic, side-eye view of life. I can understand the appeal, however, even as I mentally tsk at adherents for what I see as their intellectual laziness.

Edited December 25, 2016 by lordonia