S01.E05: Contrapasso

[DarkRaichu]

4 minutes ago, withanaich said:

Here's what I don't understand: how can people possibly think there are two different timelines?! Like, it was a nice theory for a second, but it seems pretty obvious that that isn't what's going on here, and here's why: The hosts interacting with the MIB move and talk the same as the ones interacting with William and Logan. Ford has said -- and we've seen evidence of this in his interactions with the guy in the basement, who even looks a little "off" when he's sitting still -- that the older hosts were clunky, had herky-jerky machine-like movements (which you can HEAR), and often repeated themselves. We haven't seen any of that behavior from the modern-day hosts. (Even when they malfunction, they seem pretty lifelike. Even when the guy out in the desert had a meltdown, it looked more like a human being having a stroke than a robot sputtering out of control.)

Not only has Ford said what the older hosts were like, the MIB himself also lamented how "realistic" Teddy was. He said that the hosts he USED to interact with -- years and years ago, when some people think William and Logan are existing -- were full of all these beautiful little parts. Now they bleed and get all gross like real people do.

Ah, but the park had been operational for a while when Logan and William arrived.  Obviously Logan visited several times prior to this particular visit.

Jerky Old Bill could be the bartender when the park was opened BUT improvements had been made by the time Logan visited.

Assuming Arnold died just before the park opened (34 years ago) and Logan & William visited when the last incident happened (30 years ago), there was about 4 years window for Ford to improve his creation.  

[Hootis]

IMHO, nudity requires a certain context to be titillating - robots aren't sexy for me, so seeing a bunch of naked robots isn't gratuitous.  The only way I'd be sexually attracted to a robot was if I didn't know it was a robot.

Did anyone here see the film "Under the Skin" with a very naked Scarlett Johansson?  Did you find her sexy in that movie?  Eeyugh.

The orgy scene was mostly an excuse to shoehorn Roman World (from the original movie) into this world anyway.  If you didn't like that, do NOT watch the recent Spartacus series, ho ho.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Hootis

[Ronin Jackson]

The development of Dolores seems at odds with the multiple timeline theory. Whatever is going on with her has advanced since her encounter with the Man in Black. Plus, the Man in Black has been in her flashbacks, so that negates the possibility that whatever is going on has been taken care of by the tech people by the time the Man in Black rolls around. 

[okerry]

28 minutes ago, withanaich said:

Here's what I don't understand: how can people possibly think there are two different timelines?! Like, it was a nice theory for a second, but it seems pretty obvious that that isn't what's going on here, and here's why: The hosts interacting with the MIB move and talk the same as the ones interacting with William and Logan. Ford has said -- and we've seen evidence of this in his interactions with the guy in the basement, who even looks a little "off" when he's sitting still -- that the older hosts were clunky, had herky-jerky machine-like movements (which you can HEAR), and often repeated themselves. We haven't seen any of that behavior from the modern-day hosts. (Even when they malfunction, they seem pretty lifelike. Even when the guy out in the desert had a meltdown, it looked more like a human being having a stroke than a robot sputtering out of control.)

Not only has Ford said what the older hosts were like, the MIB himself also lamented how "realistic" Teddy was. He said that the hosts he USED to interact with -- years and years ago, when some people think William and Logan are existing -- were full of all these beautiful little parts. Now they bleed and get all gross like real people do.

My son noticed the same thing - that the earlier hosts were very different from the ones in the present-day park. We haven't seen any of the earlier models that we know of - they all bleed & react just like Teddy, etc., and are nothing like Old Bill or anything that was largely mechanical.

[ennui]

2 hours ago, paramitch said:

Yet he tells the greyhound story to the old gunslinger (a story about how the dog was essentially programmed to fruitlessly repeat specific behavior over and over again, but who then had no idea what to do when it had actually achieved its goal), and then shows palpable sadness when the old bot shows no sign of understanding it.

I'd love it if Old Bill is lying to Ford.

[Adultosaurus]

1 hour ago, teddysmom said:

with their bathing suit area for all to see,

LOL.

[ennui]

21 hours ago, okerry said:

Okay, somebody tell me if you noticed this too: At the end of the Ford/Teddy/MiB scene, Ford waves his finger and the player piano starts playing *very fast.* And Teddy abruptly stands up and seems to be moving very fast as well - as though Ford sped him up to get him moving, not necessarily "healing" him.

I thought that part was interesting. Maybe Ford can control time in the park -- everything was paused while he talked to MiB? I also think the player pianos scattered throughout the park are significant, since there's one in the opening credits that keeps playing after the hands leave. 

[djsunyc]

if delores is having flashbacks to william and logan...then why is everything still the same now - like why is she by the coffin in the train.  has that coffin always been there?  and in the same place?

why was she in the church running with nobody around?

it almost seems to me that the flashes of delores NOW with no william is a completely empty park with nobody around.

[Hootis]

They're robots. So what if they're naked? You have to include the context. Did you see "Under the Skin" with a very nude Scarlett Johansson? Or "Ex Machina?" Did you find those things sexy?

EDIT: Sorry for the repetition, I didn't realize the recap comment section fed directly into this thread and vice-versa.  The more you know....

Edited November 1, 2016 by Hootis

[DarkRaichu]

I found it jarring that Sizemore had to scrape every bottom just to get 20 bots for his new story, but a town the size of Pariah could operate with hundreds of bots running around in the off chance a guest or two would stumble in.  It was still a hidden town that Logan and William found by accident.  How many guests visited the town in any 1 week cycle anyway?  I would think Ford's business partners would frown on at that kind of waste.  

Edited November 1, 2016 by DarkRaichu

[arc]

1 hour ago, DarkRaichu said:

Assuming Arnold died just before the park opened (34 years ago) and Logan & William visited when the last incident happened (30 years ago), there was about 4 years window for Ford to improve his creation.  

Would Arnold have died for the likes of Bill? And interestingly, Dolores was around by the time of Arnold's death.

2 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

I found it jarring that Sizemore had to scrape every bottoms just to get 20 bots for his new story, but a town the size of Pariah could operate with hundreds of bots running around in the off chance a guest or two would stumble in.  It was still a hidden town that Logan and William found by accident. How many guests visited the town in any 1 week cycle?  I would think Ford's business partners would frown on at that kind of waste.  

They do frown, according to Logan! But yes, agreed, it's crazy. At least Las Mudas (Lawrence's home village) is very small.

[CrashTextDummie]

I thought this episode was exceptionally generous with clues and hints as to what is going on. Here's what I think I learned, under the assumption of the two timelines theory:

- TMIB is not the only character looking for something. To my surprise, so is Ford apparently. Who knows, maybe they're even after the same thing. It seems like Arnold left behind some sort of mystery before he died, or set some sort of plan in motion (to destroy the park maybe?), and Ford suspects Dolores is involved (her last recorded interaction with Arnold was on the day he died). I love this development, because Ford was shaping up to be a kind of all-knowing but deliberately secretive character I find inherently frustrating to watch. This gives new depth to his possible motivations (more on this later). The designs of Arnold and the circumstances of his death are the most compelling mystery to me at this point, and seem to be central to the overarching narrative.

- Fords suspicions with regards to Dolores seem to be correct. The hallucinations she has in the William timeline appear to be fundamentally different from the glitches experienced by Maeve and other hosts. She has a voice in her head (of Arnold?) telling her to "find him". I believe this is programming he implanted in her during that final interaction they had. Although there's no telling yet as to what intentions he had for her.  It also makes a great deal of sense to place Dolores, who is clearly the main focal point of the story, at the center of this mystery.

- Consequently, I think the reveries recently implemented by Ford in the TMIB timeline were designed to re-trigger whatever it was that Arnold left behind. I love the idea that TMIB timeline Dolores is retracing her steps from the William timeline. Ford is looking for answers he can only find in the memory of hosts, but since they are programmed to forget, he can't access them directly. The glitches experienced by other hosts, particularly Maeve, seem to be a side-effect of unforeseen consequences. Dolores is the real (and suspected) target, but other hosts are also affected.

I'm kind of baffled that some critics and viewers reduce the mystery of this show to just the question of multiple timelines. Even if I'm on the right track with the above, there is so, so much left to find out and discover. To add to that, we didn't learn more of Dwight and the new storyline, other than TMIB reinforcing the idea that it's possibly a stark departure from what Ford used to design.

Hell of a show.

Edited to add: If the above is correct, the "memories" we see Dolores having (of the church in particular) may be reveries TMIB timeline Dolores is having of things that are yet to happen in the William timeline. A flash forward if you will. I find that pretty clever.

Edited November 1, 2016 by CrashTextDummie

[DarkRaichu]

14 minutes ago, arc said:

Would Arnold have died for the likes of Bill? And interestingly, Dolores was around by the time of Arnold's death.

Not only that, Ford specifically said that Dolores was Arnold's creation.  Perhaps there was an element of jealousy in play, assuming Arnold was capable of creating Dolores while all Ford could come up with was jerky Old Bill

Edited November 1, 2016 by DarkRaichu

[Netfoot]

2 hours ago, teddysmom said:

then the whole gross situation at that town with the orgy and the women painted gold walking around naked? Like the WW version of Sodom & Gomorrah?

We know (because we were told) that out of Sweetwater, things become more extreme.  That means more killing and more sex.  The orgy scene is simply the personification of this.  

[withanaich]

Quote

The orgy scene was mostly an excuse to shoehorn Roman World (from the original movie) into this world anyway.  

That's how I saw it, as a tip of the hat to the movie as well as the writers saying, "this is all the Roman World you're gonna get here, so enjoy." Was it anachronistic? Sure, but I can believe the proprietors inside Westworld might set up a little old-timey brothel of their own.

[Gobi]

34 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

I found it jarring that Sizemore had to scrape every bottom just to get 20 bots for his new story, but a town the size of Pariah could operate with hundreds of bots running around in the off chance a guest or two would stumble in.  It was still a hidden town that Logan and William found by accident.  How many guests visited the town in any 1 week cycle anyway?  I would think Ford's business partners would frown on at that kind of waste.  

Interesting point. If you subscribe to the multiple timelines, there's no problem.

If you do not, it can be explained away. These hosts are more dangerous than others, it may be too difficult to dial their behavior down (although it seems that is easy to do).

We don't know how many people we saw were hosts. It is quite possible that a lot, even the majority, of the orgy participants, male and female, were guests.

[blackwing]

I don't have any issues at all with the nudity... this is supposed to be Westworld, where your every desire can be fulfilled, so it didn't seem odd to me that this was happening.  Also not clear as to why we should feel sorry for the actors involved.  If the infamous "Westworld casting call" is to be believed, the actors who were taking roles as extras were full well told what they could have expected.  I have been wondering about the full body paint, and when we saw that guy standing guard, completely covered from head to toe in red paint... well, yeah.  The actors are getting paid, so it's not like they are being forced to walk around butt naked.

I am curious as to what is going to happen to Logan and William's relationship.  Yes, Logan is a jerk, but he's still William's boss and his future brother-in-law.  I know that guests can't be killed by hosts, but what is supposed to happen to Logan?  Just get beat up until the "storyline" dictates that he get rescued or frees himself?  I can't imagine that Westworld would attract hordes of customers if it was heard that there is a small chance that you can get the tar beat out of you.

22 hours ago, okerry said:

I don't see two timelines *at all.* Never would have thought of it if I hadn't seen mention of it here. Logan & William are actually a lot more like the two dweebs who were the main characters in the original 1973 movie, and I think that's where they come from.

When MiB was cutting down the exsanguinated Lawrence and the little boy walked over, MiB told the boy to run along because "someone will be along for him soon" - meaning Lawrence, meaning he knew the techs would come up and collect him and patch him up and put him back in service as El Lazo - which is exactly what happened. 

I just think this thing is plenty complex without any need for double secret timelines - at least, I sure hope that's not what they're doing.

I agree.  I'm not sure why many seem convinced there are two timelines.  I'm confused enough as it is with what is going on.  If there truly are two timelines happening, after the season is over, I hope some website does some kind of analysis as to what happened in each timeline and what it all signifies.

I'm trying to wrap my head around what exactly the two timelines are, if they indeed exist.  There are two Lawrences.  So one timeline is William/Logan having their adventure and meeting El Lazo Lawrence?  That would (I assume) be "current day timeline".  So the "old" timeline is the other Lawrence and the Man in Black?  But Man in Black is old, and alludes to having visited the park for years, and knowing the old Dolores and older model hosts.  He talks like Teddy is an advanced model of the older hosts he knew.  So how can that timeline be the "old" timeline?  Unless they are two parallel timelines occurring at the same place in time.

Now my head hurts.  I'd prefer to just think that there is only one timeline.  Lawrence "died"... the "butchers" come to collect the body, wash and service him, and put him back up topside as El Lazo.

[SoothingDave]

Not buying any "two timelines" theory either.  What we do have is androids (like Delores and Maeve) remembering things that happened on previous loops.  Stuff they should not be able to remember.  

These characters run through the same loops.  When Delores is confronted with the bandits, she remembers, being shot, then she runs away this time.    

Maeve remembers being a mother and being attacked by natives.  

In that sense there are multiple timelines that we see glimpses into.  But as for a story, no, I don't see why people think MiB and William are not contemporaneous.  

[Ottis]

Quote

I found it jarring that Sizemore had to scrape every bottom just to get 20 bots for his new story, but a town the size of Pariah could operate with hundreds of bots running around in the off chance a guest or two would stumble in.  It was still a hidden town that Logan and William found by accident.  How many guests visited the town in any 1 week cycle anyway?  I would think Ford's business partners would frown on at that kind of waste.  

Agree, and this is why I posted questions about hosts interacting with no guests present, back at the pilot.  It must be just for our benefit, otherwise i can't see how they make sense.

[Gobi]

William and Logan didn't find Pariah by accident. Logan knew of its existence, but had never been able to find it or get there (remember, Westworld is huge). The easiest way to get there is to find a host that can bring you there as part of a story. That's why Logan was so excited by their prisoner.

Since the park has been around a while at this point (two timelines or not)  it's possible that a lot of guests have been there and return to it.

[dr pepper]

10 hours ago, arc said:

I don't think she's designed to question her reality. If anything, there's a sentiment of contentment with life written into her. It's all through the pilot: "Some people choose to see the ugliness in this world, the disarray. I choose to see the beauty." Plus, she wouldn't be "off-loop" if she actually was designed to leave the ranch, narratively. And finally, her narrative loop is a small and constrained one. But it does explain why the park designers wanted AI that could improvise. It would be a ridiculous amount of work to fully script Dolores for all locations within the park like Pariah and elsewhere just in case a guest took her there, all the while never really expecting her to visit any of those places.

Suppose each location has a number of subplots available. If a host ends up there who isn't in the main plot, they download one of the subplots automatically.

[Adultosaurus]

3 hours ago, teddysmom said:

with their bathing suit area for all to see,

LOL.

[ennui]

23 minutes ago, Ottis said:

Agree, and this is why I posted questions about hosts interacting with no guests present, back at the pilot.  It must be just for our benefit, otherwise i can't see how they make sense.

We only follow a few guests. There are lots and lots of guests. As for Pariah, I'm sure there were guests at the orgy. If Logan couldn't find it previously, maybe he asked the wrong hosts.

I posted somewhere that the stories need to keep running in case guests show up unexpectedly. The hosts need to follow their plots so that they end up in the correct places, when they need to be there. For example, the cowboys stuck in their camp, waiting for the woodchopper. 

Edited November 1, 2016 by ennui

[djsunyc]

this was posted elsewhere by dark_b:

Quote

I see people are already talking about two timlines and MIB/William. i suspected something similar but after listening to Decoding Westworld i am 100% sure that Joanna Robinson is correct about everything.

-34 years ago (Arnold(Jeffrey Wright) is alive. before the westworld incident.)
-30 years ago (William-Logan story. First time Dolores leaves her loop)
-present (Anthony Hopkins, Bernard(Jeffrey Wright),Teddy, MIB(Ed Harris),Thandie Newton, Dolores leaves her loop the second time and retracer her footsteps)

Bernard is a robot. he looks like Arnold. the scnees with Bernard talking to Dolores is 34 years ago. Before he died and before the incident.And its Arnold(human) talking to Dolores. how to explain the scene where Bernard looks at the picture from Ford? the robot was programmed to not recognize himself.

30 years ago after Arnold died the westword park was more violent for the guests(human). Logan gets punched and choked by the hosts. When William attacks Logan no hosts comes to help Logan. when MIB(Ed Harris) takes out a knifeTeddy(host) helps Ford because of the The Good Samaritan Reflex.
Nolan:
“Part of what the hosts have been designed to do, we have a feature in the program called The Good Samaritan Reflex or Function,” Wherever they can, the park is populated by hosts and part of their responsibility, part of their subconscious programming is to try to protect the guests in whatever capacity it can. So if you’ve got a drunken guest who’s careening towards a cliff edge, you’re more likely than not to have a host nearby who, without breaking that narrative, is going to find a way to gently steer them back. They’re cannon fodder on one hand, but they’re also the all-purpose minders of this place.”

-westworld opens
-something happens
-Arnold finds out that Dolores is special. he talks to her. he tells her about the maze
-Arnold dies.
-Ford can not handle the park
-William and Logan come to westworld. 
-Dolores starts looking for the maze with William
-the incident happens. maybe Logan dies. the first human in the park.
-Dolores get reset.her memory wiped out.It destroys William 
-William visits Westworld for 30 years. 
-William is MIB in present day
-present day. what happened with Dolores 34 years ago happens to other hosts. they start remembering the previous years. 
-Dolores starts remembering and agains leaves her loop and goes after the maze
-Anthony Hopkins talks to MIB about the maze. he knows its from Arnold
-Anhhony Hopkins talks to Dolores about he dreams and Arnold.

[numbnut]

4 minutes ago, djsunyc said:

this was posted elsewhere by dark_b:

Quote

I see people are already talking about two timlines and MIB/William. i suspected something similar but after listening to Decoding Westworld i am 100% sure that Joanna Robinson is correct about everything.

-34 years ago (Arnold(Jeffrey Wright) is alive. before the westworld incident.)
-30 years ago (William-Logan story. First time Dolores leaves her loop)
-present (Anthony Hopkins, Bernard(Jeffrey Wright),Teddy, MIB(Ed Harris),Thandie Newton, Dolores leaves her loop the second time and retracer her footsteps)

Bernard is a robot. he looks like Arnold. the scnees with Bernard talking to Dolores is 34 years ago. Before he died and before the incident.And its Arnold(human) talking to Dolores. how to explain the scene where Bernard looks at the picture from Ford? the robot was programmed to not recognize himself.

30 years ago after Arnold died the westword park was more violent for the guests(human). Logan gets punched and choked by the hosts. When William attacks Logan no hosts comes to help Logan. when MIB(Ed Harris) takes out a knifeTeddy(host) helps Ford because of the The Good Samaritan Reflex.
Nolan:
“Part of what the hosts have been designed to do, we have a feature in the program called The Good Samaritan Reflex or Function,” Wherever they can, the park is populated by hosts and part of their responsibility, part of their subconscious programming is to try to protect the guests in whatever capacity it can. So if you’ve got a drunken guest who’s careening towards a cliff edge, you’re more likely than not to have a host nearby who, without breaking that narrative, is going to find a way to gently steer them back. They’re cannon fodder on one hand, but they’re also the all-purpose minders of this place.”

-westworld opens
-something happens
-Arnold finds out that Dolores is special. he talks to her. he tells her about the maze
-Arnold dies.
-Ford can not handle the park
-William and Logan come to westworld. 
-Dolores starts looking for the maze with William
-the incident happens. maybe Logan dies. the first human in the park.
-Dolores get reset.her memory wiped out.It destroys William 
-William visits Westworld for 30 years. 
-William is MIB in present day
-present day. what happened with Dolores 34 years ago happens to other hosts. they start remembering the previous years. 
-Dolores starts remembering and agains leaves her loop and goes after the maze
-Anthony Hopkins talks to MIB about the maze. he knows its from Arnold
-Anhhony Hopkins talks to Dolores about he dreams and Arnold.

I'm still in the "Bernard is a robot" camp and was leaning toward the idea that he was created with Arnold's consciousness, but I love the idea that Bernard is actually Arnold and his scenes with Dolores are from 30 years ago. But why would he be programmed to not recognize himself in a photo?

[Ottis]

Quote

 

We only follow a few guests. There are lots and lots of guests. As for Pariah, I'm sure there were guests at the orgy. If Logan couldn't find it previously, maybe he asked the wrong hosts.

I posted somewhere that the stories need to keep running in case guests show up unexpectedly. The hosts need to follow their plots so that they end up in the correct places, when they need to be there. For example, the cowboys stuck in their camp, waiting for the woodchopper. 

 

This was the answer back in episode one as well, however, my point is that in a space that large, I don't think there are "lots and lots of guests." We don't know for sure, but based on what we have seen so far, in even busy areas there are a handful, and in places off the beaten path, there may be none. Only the orgy scene gave us potential for there to be many guests. On the train that arrives, how many? A few dozen? Logically it makes no sense for the many, many hosts to constantly be carrying on their dialogue when, depending on their location and role, the odds of a guest coming near them are tiny. And who is to say that the hosts don't have the ability to recognize when a guest is within a certain distance, and "activate"? 

It feels a little like a conceit to get us viewers thinking about the hosts as people, when they are not (in the context of the show). Which ... is OK. It just keeps pulling me out of the show.

[dr pepper]

5 hours ago, paramitch said:

Then: "Dreams mean everything," says Ford to Dolores. "They're the stories we tell ourselves of what could be, who we could become."

This right here is basically the entire show in a nutshell. It's telling us, right here, that how we play and imagine also equals who we are. What's really interesting is that It occurs multiple times through the episode, and each time, a character with real or imagined power over another tells the weaker one that they may dream of better, but they won't get it. Ford says it to Dolores. Lutz, the crude tech says it to Felix. And Logan says it to William.

 

I liked that whole post. I'm quoting this part because, as i've mentioned before, what i miss most about Television Without Pity is Jacob's commentaries, how he could wring expansive psychological and philosophical insights out of even the smallest event. This comment of yours reminds me of him.

Well done.

[Gobi]

21 minutes ago, djsunyc said:

this was posted elsewhere by dark_b:

I'm not sold yet. Why bother creating a host wife that Bernard can have video chats with (because you would need a host to be always available to pull it off)? Much easier to just give him a backstory that both his wife and son were dead. How has it been kept secret that he's a robot?

Nor has TMIB been acting as if he's mourning a lost love. And why would he wait 30 years to look for the maze again? His story seems to be that he's done everything there is to do at Westworld, except for some hidden level he's yet to find.

[Adultosaurus]

So does everyone go off on Google explorations about shows now?  Do you think the creators know this and work it into the intrigue?  

[okerry]

paramitch said: 

Then: "Dreams mean everything," says Ford to Dolores. "They're the stories we tell ourselves of what could be, who we could become."

This right here is basically the entire show in a nutshell. It's telling us, right here, that how we play and imagine also equals who we are. What's really interesting is that It occurs multiple times through the episode, and each time, a character with real or imagined power over another tells the weaker one that they may dream of better, but they won't get it. Ford says it to Dolores. Lutz, the crude tech says it to Felix. And Logan says it to William.

***(quote not working) Ford said it to Teddy, too.

[Goatherd]

15 minutes ago, Ottis said:

I don't think there are "lots and lots of guests."

Weren't we told at some point that there are 1400 guests in the park at a time? I've been wondering how that works -- maybe trains arrive 2x/day, each carrying 100, most of whom stay for a week? Or perhaps there are different starting locations (other than Sweetwater)?

 

Question 1: Does the gun that Dolores was issued, along with the change of clothes, match the one she digs up? (I'm not a gun person, so they all look alike to me.)

 

Question 2: Is anyone good at lipreading? What does Bernard whisper to Peter Abernathy as he's being placed in cold storage (Ep 1, 1:06:56)? The first part looks a bit like "One day, my friend" but I can't make out the second part at all. "You'll fight?" "You're alive?" 

[Goatherd]

Ah, found it. QA Boss-Lady says "We have 1400 guests in the park" (Ep 1, 42:30).

Also, just before that, we're told there are 2000 hosts (10% have received the upgrade, and pulling them would mean removing 200 hosts).

[dr pepper]

In case anyone is still attaching significance to names "Lawrence" < "Laurentius" = "Laurel Wearing", ie "Champion".

Also, i've decided that i really want there to be only one timeline.

 

Also, compare and contrast: the show Humans is back for a second season. It's also about a near future with robots, but in this case they are sold like appliances for personal service.

But once upon a time one of the head programmers added the missing code that gave full sentience to a select few. This code may be spreading.

Right now, one member of a fugitive band of sentients has contrived to get a job by pretending to be a rental.

Special investigators with both guns and high powered tasers are hunting them.

If you haven't seen the show i recommend you check it out.

[ennui]

41 minutes ago, Ottis said:

On the train that arrives, how many? A few dozen?

I think it would enhance the guest experience if they aren't all trucked in together. Then, when you're wandering the old West, you don't recognize the other guests as guests.

[Adultosaurus]

48 minutes ago, dr pepper said:

 

In case anyone is still attaching significance to names "Lawrence" < "Laurentius" = "Laurel Wearing", ie "Champion".

 

That's a HUGE stretch.

[arc]

1 hour ago, Goatherd said:

Ah, found it. QA Boss-Lady says "We have 1400 guests in the park" (Ep 1, 42:30).

Also, just before that, we're told there are 2000 hosts (10% have received the upgrade, and pulling them would mean removing 200 hosts).

This is why I say the official websites aren't as canon as the show, because on the website it says there's a 10:1 ratio of hosts to guests in the park.

2 hours ago, dr pepper said:

Suppose each location has a number of subplots available. If a host ends up there who isn't in the main plot, they download one of the subplots automatically.

I guess, but that would still need a lot of writing. Dolores in Pariah wouldn't react the same as Teddy would, and Maeve, Clementine, Kissy, etc would all have their own character-specific reactions to each location and situation. At most, they could maybe share some writing by character and personality type.

[Quilt Fairy]

6 hours ago, paramitch said:

Added (I forgot earlier): But Dolores is not alone in that final scene on the train. She is simply still at the coffin farther into the room, while we saw Lawrence and William move to the doorway previously to open up a flask or two (and hear Lawrence faintly describing the liquor to him). The lighting on Dolores as she updates whoever she is communing with, however, is very much like that when she is in her Q&As -- isolating and cold. I'm sure it's deliberate.

Check the camera angles again.  First Delores is on the right side of the coffin (from our perspective) and we see the tail end of the train car where she and William entered.  William and Lawrence are at the other end of the car out of the scene.  But then, after the reveal of the maze burned into the coffin lid, the camera angle changes and Delores is now shown on the left side of the coffin and we should see William and Lawrence to her left.

[Adultosaurus]

2 minutes ago, arc said:

This is why I say the official websites aren't as canon as the show

There is no canon for this - they've already blown past the initial content. 

[arc]

26 minutes ago, Adultosaurus said:

There is no canon for this - they've already blown past the initial content. 

Oh, I don't mean the movie is show canon. I mean the show's own canon is whatever is onscreen. Then supplemental materials like the websites, or the showrunners saying things in behind-the-scenes videos, are probably canonical too but they can be contradicted by the show and in such cases I think continuity nerds like myself should just accept that the show is more canonical than the supplemental materials.

[feverfew]

11 hours ago, Gobi said:

I'm not sure Wyatt has anything to do with Arnold. He's a completely new character, for one thing.

I think he may be more dangerous than that. Ford, while he denies being insane, considers himself to be a God. He has created "every blade of grass" in Westworld, as he has put it. In this episode he again talked about creating his own world. Earlier, when talking to Bernard about his new storyline, he was looking at the church steeple. He has expressed his disappointment with how the park turned out: The guests chose the forbidden fruit, as it were. His interactions with the hosts range from paternal to dismissive; he seems disappointed in them, also. He spends a lot of time with Bill; but then, parents often favor their first born.

Ford has a jaded view of the guests. When William and Logan are arriving, Logan tells William that now he'll find out what kind of person he really is. At the end of the same episode, Ford tells the scriptwriter that people don't come to Westworld to find out what sort of person they are, they already know that. And Ford has seen what types they are, and is not pleased.

We've seen him doing massive rebuilding of the park and tearing down old buildings. I think Ford intends to destroy it, or at least alter it fundamentally. Wyatt may have been sent by Ford to "cleanse" Westworld. Ford may be preparing to unleash his greyhounds.

While I really like this view of Ford as a malign God, I'm not entirely ready to buy him as the disappointed Old Testament-type who'll flood his world to make a new paradise. And even if Ford started out with faith in humanity's better angels, he has long since given up. Arnold was the one chasing enlightenment, while Ford time after time denies his robots even the slightest thread of humanity. Compassion. "You're..." hurting me was what Dolores tried to say. So we at least know that Wyatt is not for the betterment of the robots.

Hell is empty and the Devil is here. Why, I still have no clue.

 

Shout out to @paramitch for an awesome post. And to all you guys. Westworld is the only show I watch more than once; I enjoy both the characters and the visual, but more than that, I find the ideas - and the resulting discussions - fascinating. I haven't felt this way since the first season of Battlestar Galactica, when everything and everyone was new and shiny - you guys here have really given me something to think about.

[Netfoot]

4 hours ago, djsunyc said:

this was posted elsewhere by dark_b:

What?  No aliens?  No city of Atlantis?  Oh, I get it!  There is no spoon!

[ennui]

4 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

What?  No aliens?  No city of Atlantis?  Oh, I get it!  There is no spoon!

Funny you should say that. I was thinking about the Matrix, and how I had to watch it three times to even grasp what was happening.  I'm slow.

[Goatherd]

Do we see soldiers anywhere other than (1) with William/Logan and (2) in Teddy's newly implanted memories? When Ford gave Teddy the new backstory, he said "It starts in a time of war." For the other "Timeliners" out there, this could be one of the differences in the park storylines over time -- that the "time of war" was a while back, in park-storyline-time.

When William/Logan arrive in Sweetwater, they see army recruiters. When "present day" guests arrive, they instead are invited to go bounty hunting. Of course we also see soldiers in the William/Logan story in Pariah.

I will be interested to see if soldiers / recruiters show up for any other guests. If they don't, I'll personally lodge this as evidence toward two timelines.

 

I also keep hoping to catch a glimpse of Peter Abernathy in one of his previous roles, or for William/Logan to hear about a group of "cultist cannibals" (from back when Peter was a professor). That story was referred to as a "horror narrative," so I could definitely see it starting from a town like Pariah.

[Gobi]

20 minutes ago, Goatherd said:

Do we see soldiers anywhere other than (1) with William/Logan and (2) in Teddy's newly implanted memories? When Ford gave Teddy the new backstory, he said "It starts in a time of war." For the other "Timeliners" out there, this could be one of the differences in the park storylines over time -- that the "time of war" was a while back, in park-storyline-time.

When William/Logan arrive in Sweetwater, they see army recruiters. When "present day" guests arrive, they instead are invited to go bounty hunting. Of course we also see soldiers in the William/Logan story in Pariah.

I will be interested to see if soldiers / recruiters show up for any other guests. If they don't, I'll personally lodge this as evidence toward two timelines.

 

I also keep hoping to catch a glimpse of Peter Abernathy in one of his previous roles, or for William/Logan to hear about a group of "cultist cannibals" (from back when Peter was a professor). That story was referred to as a "horror narrative," so I could definitely see it starting from a town like Pariah.

I think that the second time Hector attacked the town, there were soldiers present. A couple of them helped capture one of the guests involved in the raid.

[SoWindsor]

After the scene with Ford, Dolores says, "He doesn't know. I didn't tell him anything." Who is she talking to?

Edited November 2, 2016 by SoWindsor

[Gobi]

11 minutes ago, SoWindsor said:

After the scene with Ford, Dolores says, "He doesn't know. I didn't tell him anything." Who is she talking to?

Who indeed? Arnold is a popular choice.

[meep.meep]

5 hours ago, Ottis said:

Agree, and this is why I posted questions about hosts interacting with no guests present, back at the pilot.  It must be just for our benefit, otherwise i can't see how they make sense.

There was a scene with Ford and Bernard where Ford mentioned how the hosts kept talking to each other, even when no guests were around.  So they do it, and the people running the park, or at least Ford, can tell they are doing it.

[DarkRaichu]

44 minutes ago, Gobi said:

I think that the second time Hector attacked the town, there were soldiers present. A couple of them helped capture one of the guests involved in the raid.

Yep, they were escorting the native americans passing through Sweetwater, ie when Meave saw the doll that looked like her sketches

[Goatherd]

Ah, right you (both) are. Now I even remember someone in the control room saying to divert soldiers to the town.

[morgankobi]

Actually, the mention of Peter Abernathy above makes me think he may be the proof that there aren't two timelines 30 years apart. He was Dolores's dad when we first see the MiB return to the ranch and drag her into the barn. He glitches and is replaced with the new dad who is her dad while William and Logan are in town.

Edited November 2, 2016 by morgankobi