S12.E03: The Foundry

[catrox14]

LOL

2 minutes ago, SueB said:

I'm betting it was Dean on the foldaway.  Mostly because if they did Rock, Paper, Scissors, he would have lost.  

Yeah, I'm going with Dean on the fold a-way. And yes I'm so glad they put that in there.  Although there could have been some comedy gold with the boys having to share a bed, fighting over the covers etc.

[rue721]

Why would anyone be on the foldaway? I know they're not small men, but come on. They can both fit in a bed.

Whoever lost the rock-paper-scissor match should have been like, "Are you seriously going to take the whole bed for yourself and leave me with a cot? Just scoot the fuck over!" and just laid himself down on one side of the bed. Well, that's what I would have done, anyway.

I do think it's sweet that they all three shared a room, though.

[SueB]

IDK. Sam sticks me as an octopus sleeper. His ability to sprawl seems epic. The cot is self-preservation. 

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

So, even if they'd been in a smaller town (I am not familiar with MN counties at all!) likely the autopsy would have been performed in St. Paul anyway.  Also:

Well, since I live in a rural MN county and happen to know this, we don't have an official coroner here, so, yes, autopsies are sent off to a county who has a coroner's office. They would only do an autopsy if the cause of death was in question, though. There really isn't a lot of investigation done in-county. Most deaths aren't suspicious and wouldn't require autopsies. In this case, I think they would've sent the bodies to a nearby office since they were suspicious.

However, only a couple years ago, a local doctor--just a regular doctor, mind you, not a pathologist--would do autopsies on request from local law enforcement. It's only been recently they started sending them off to other counties. We just don't have the resources for this sort of thing anymore.

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

You reminded me of the hotel room.  Anyone else think it looked a little nicer than places they usually stay?  Maybe they up their game a little for mom?  There was also a fold-a-way cot pushed back against one wall.  

The hotel rooms in general haven't been all that craptastic for a couple years, but I wondered if Mary had her own room? I would've liked to have seen more of how they worked out some of these regular things in the episode, myself. I'm always more interested in how they live than the cases themselves.

[SueB]

So, now that BoBo said the title "The Foundry" was personal (perhaps he's just keeping it a mystery?), I feel the need to gnaw on it a bit.  It has to at least have some connection to the episode that was explained or it wouldn't have been kept as a title.

I'm guessing something was FORMED in this episode.  Perhaps an idea.  And we won't see the results of this initial formation for a while.

Moving on with my re-watch comments:
- I'm struck by how much they foreshadowed the ending when I didn't see it coming at all.  Sam and Cas knew something was "up". Cas even went so far as to say you belong here. I'm presuming "on earth" is what he meant.  Dean knew there was a problem but was in denial.
- Until the end, when Dean apologized to Mary for honing in on her hunt. And then rewatching, it all lays out pretty clearly when I rewatch. Others have made some of these same comments, so my apologies for repetition.
- It's been less than a week since Mary got ripped from heaven.  And she's doing that Winchester thing of not really talking about it.  But the boys calling her "Mom", I think, is freaking her out a bit.  She's not THEIR Mom.  She's the Mom of baby Sammy and little Dean.  And these grown men are so beyond her in terms of who they are and what they deal with. But looking at her scenes I see:
1) Mary can't sleep. And she is reading thru the journal but it's not easy going.  She's no where ready to go into "acceptance" phase of her loss.  And the journal is something useful when you are ready to embrace what has happened and get to know the "now".  Mary is not in denial, anger, or bargaining. But I think she may be in depression and trying to fake acceptance.
2) Mary decides to 'fake it til you make it' with a move towards hunting.  Cut her hair, put her wedding ring on a necklace, found a hunt.  And then Dean says, "Family hunting trip!" And Mary really doesn't want that.  Like, at all.  She wants to figure out who SHE is before dealing with Sam and Dean.  She's not invested enough in them yet to try and see things from their perspective.  
3) On the road, she tries to assert her skills and gets injured.  And Sam and Dean immediately take over HER hunt.  They do their research and go off, on what she feels is the wrong angle.  So, she pursues her hunch her way. BUT SHE HAS TO GET RESCUED.  She gets possessed and nearly kills one of her two "children".  Mary, I think, believes that the hunting trip was a failure for her ("I sucked"). And that diving into hunting means dragging Sam and Dean along. Where she will continue to feel inadequate.  And they are constant reminders of her loss. And she might very well get them killed (in her mind), trying to protect her.

So, I know this is ground we've tread already in this thread, but I think the show DID show us her taking a runner was likely.  WE, like Sam and Dean, expect Mary to be ABOUT Sam and Dean.  But she's not. She's about Mary.  She cares for them. Knows she loves them (but theoretically, she doesn't really feel it yet, IMO) but she is so not ready to move into "Acceptance" phase of grief.  And she can't do it around them. Because they DO hover.  She's under a microscope with them.  Naturally, of course.  They can hardly be just chill about it.  Try as hey might.  

To pull it all together (right or wrong); this may be the beginning of the understanding that Mary doesn't want to be here. Like at all. And while she's trying to deal, it's a bad fit for her.

Edited October 30, 2016 by SueB

[Bessie]

6 minutes ago, SueB said:

WE, like Sam and Dean, expect Mary to be ABOUT Sam and Dean.  But she's not.

I didn't expect that at all and I don't view her decision to leave in a negative light. Actually, if she were all about Sam and Dean that would've been jarring to me. I'm not certain the boys expect her to be about them either. In the moment they're hurt, but I expect once they get past that, they'll understand her actions.

[catrox14]

I didn't get the impression that Sam and Dean expected Mary to be solely about them. Dean just got excited to think he could hunt with Mom. But I do think he has been conflicted since the moment see he saw her. That hug at the end of the first episode was not the look of a happy man. That was a look of a man that knows the supernatural, know what's dead should stay dead. But IMO he chose to set those feelings aside to enjoy the moment and inevitably he gets burned. 

 It still bugs me that Dean did know Mary as a young woman and AFAIR he was impacted by that. It changed how he saw her.  Other than being mentioned, the show is acting like that had no impact on Dean. But I'll just head!canon that Dean's inner 4 year old that got stuck and never got to be 4, is fighting it's way out to keep Mommy again.  I dunno. It's weird.

[rue721]

2 hours ago, Bessie said:

I didn't expect that at all and I don't view her decision to leave in a negative light. Actually, if she were all about Sam and Dean that would've been jarring to me. I'm not certain the boys expect her to be about them either. In the moment they're hurt, but I expect once they get past that, they'll understand her actions.

I agree. Actually, I'd go even further and say that they seemed to understand her actions perfectly already. They knew as soon as her goodbye started exactly what it was, and they didn't argue with her or demand much more explanation. I mean, obviously they're very upset, but what's happening doesn't seem to be mysterious to them at all.

In fact, I think they were so upset *because* what was happening was so familiar to them. Mary's goodbye was very gentle:  she told them that she loved them, framed this separation as temporary, and said she needed to be on her own in order to get her own head on straight (not because they'd done anything wrong). She took a lot of pains *not* to reject them. Her actions were very understandable and honestly, pretty sympathetic. But Sam and Dean were going to be devastated by her saying goodbye to them no matter how or why she did it imo. Because their feelings weren't really about 2016 Mary leaving, imo -- I think her goodbye was just the trigger that reopened their old and apparently still devastating wounds w/r/t losing their mom.

(And maybe other old wounds, too. I mean, this show did start out with them searching for a(nother) missing parent. Mary's absence and loss isn't the only one they've had to deal with. She's also not the first character to have trouble letting go of the past and to mourn what was/what might have been).

Anyway, really, 2016 Mary is nearly as much of a stranger to Sam and Dean as they are to her. They don't have much of a relationship with her (yet) and they don't really know her (yet). Their eagerness to accept her as their mother in the face of that, which the show has put in direct contrast to Mary's reluctance to accept them as her sons, is actually pretty disturbing and sad imo. I mean, her reaction is the more "normal" one, I would think. Their eagerness reminds me of shelter dogs who are up for adoption.

Honestly, I would think that it would scare and alienate Mary a bit. They obviously are in *need* of something from her. I think she doesn't know enough about them or their lives yet to know what it is that they're in need of -- but I think that Mary does know she can't give it to them (and now that she's said goodbye, I think they know that, too).

I don't really have anything in mind in terms of what it is they need from Mary. Probably someone who is actually a mother has a better understanding of that! Regardless, though, I do think it's probably too late for them to get it. At this point, it's not that they need a mother, it's that they needed a mother (past tense).

[Aeryn13]

Quote

she told them that she loved them, framed this separation as temporary, and said she needed to be on her own in order to get her own head on straight (not because they'd done anything wrong).

If you do anything wrong, you can at least try to fix it. She told them they were wrong for her basically because they had grown up. That is not something they can do anything about. And as for loving them, she just told them in so many words that she didn`t. She loves their kid selves, not them. The distinction was clear to me. So I found the obvious sugarcoating lie of "I love you" right after that speech disingenuous. Why say it? To make herself feel better after the fact? If she can`t connect to them, so be it but  to me that was giving false hope. At least to Sam, Dean had already retreated too much to buy into it. 

Quote

In the moment they're hurt, but I expect once they get past that, they'll understand her actions.

I hope Dean has put his walls up the next time they meet. Last thing I want to see is him getting emotionally suckerpunched over and over. It`s sad that his last safe place in his mind got destroyed but I want to see him protect himself in the future. And for no other character to whine at him about it. If Mary can choose to act primarily for her own well-being, then, frankly, so can Dean. No browbeating about opening up and forgiving and  bla bla he needs to change and compromise. Fuck that. Onus can`t always be on him.

In that vein, I don`t like dialogue like "why can`t we have a good thing for once"  "Mom is not a thing" that is so manipulative. Come on, he obviously did not say that Mary is a thing. He referred to the current situation. It`s not uncommon for people to phrase it like that. And Sam knows that.

That exchange made no sense other than by purposefully putting a false interpretation on his words clumsily paint Dean as someone who views people as objects and Sam as the enlightened, moral person who needs to set him straight. If Sam had not made that remark, I certainly wouldn`t have thought "oh, Dean totally meant Mary, he views her as an interactive doll, his actions certainly have shown that". Urgh.   

Edited October 30, 2016 by Aeryn13

[Splash]

I can understand how she could both love them and want to have some distance from them.  From her perspective, her infant and preschooler are now older than she is and that has to mess with your head.  And I'm betting she's blaming herself for what they've become and that's causing her to feel an incredible amount of guilt.  She made the deal with the Yellow Eyed demon, which caused her death, which caused John to go on a crusade to avenge her death, forcing her boys into a life she didn't want for them.

Honestly, I'm not sure that letting her read John's journal this quickly was the best idea.  I'm generally not one for withholding information from someone, but that was an extremely emotionally charged book written by a man who was consumed by grief over the loss of his wife and whose singular focus was to have his family destroy what destroyed them.  To her, she probably felt that, because of a single choice she made, she robbed them of any other choices, other than to become hunters.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Splash

[SueB]

37 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Their eagerness reminds me of shelter dogs who are up for adoption.

....

I don't really have anything in mind in terms of what it is they need from Mary. Probably someone who is actually a mother has a better understanding of that! Regardless, though, I do think it's probably too late for them to get it. At this point, it's not that they need a mother, it's that they needed a mother (past tense).

Ouch! (Shelter dog comment is so spot on I may have to have a glass of wine)

In terms of what they need, they don't know it but they need her to know who they are. The good and the bad things they've done. And then they need her approval and encouragement to keep fighting the good fight. They don't know this but it's what most children need ultimately from their parents. And so few actually get.  

[MysteryGuest]

37 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Anyway, really, 2016 Mary is nearly as much of a stranger to Sam and Dean as they are to her.

This is where I was at the end of Mamma Mia, which had Dean getting drunk and looking at all the old pictures of his mother and him that's he's probably looked at hundreds, if not thousands of times.  In my opinion, he was trying to reconcile the mother he remembered with the woman he's just met.  It appears, at least from comments he made in this episode, that he was working his way through that.  Unfortunately, it was at the very same time that Mary was pulling away from them, for very valid reasons of her own.  The entire situation is very difficult for all of them.

[pixelcat]

More bunches of random thoughts, mostly inspired by what others have added to the thread.

From "Dark Side of the Moon":

Quote

MARY: And then, finally, I was dead. The one silver lining was that at least I was away from you. (She takes a big breath.) Everybody leaves you, Dean. You noticed? Mommy. Daddy. Even Sam.  You ever ask yourself why? Maybe it’s not them. Maybe, it’s you. (She chuckles.)

This is what I pictured was going through Dean's head when Mary was talking.  Sure, it was Zachariah's construct and not really his mom, but the words were said using her face and her voice.  I seriously hope he doesn't start numbing himself with alcohol again.

I still feel that the end was missing a scene.  I wanted something like this:

Quote

SAM:  Mom, wait.  Before you go, I have something for you.  [He leaves for his room, returns with a small backpack]  Take this.  [He opens the backpack, taking out items and setting them on the table.  First, a flip-phone which he opens, then closes]  Cell phone. I thought you'd feel more comfortable with this rather than a smart phone.  Our numbers are programmed in, use 1 for me and 2 for Dean.  [Takes out a credit card]  Fake credit card.  [Takes out a necklace]  Anti-possession charm, for demons.  [Takes out a hex bag]  Hex bag, prevents both demons and angels from tracking you.  Always keep this on you.  [Takes out a torn piece of paper with writing on it]  Our friend Bobby has cabins all over, places for hunters to crash.  They're not much, but they have basic supplies and they're safe.  Here are a few of them, in case you need it.  [Finally, takes out something wrapped in newspaper, the original Supernatural book and the one for "In My Time Of Dying"]  This will explain to you why I got back into hunting, and how Dad died. 

MARY:  Dean already told me about that.

SAM:  Not all of it.  Open it when you're ready.  And when you want to talk about it, about any of it, we'll be here.  [He puts everythning back into the backpack and hands it to her]  And if you are ever in a situation where you need us and have no way of reaching us, pray to Castiel.  He will hear it, and he will either come find you, or tell us where you are and we will come find you.

(I honestly don't know why they don't use the "pray to Castiel" location spell more often.  If Sam had done that two episodes ago, they could've found him much faster.  Plus I'd be greatly amused if he sat in the front seat and just pointed in the direction of Sam like an angelic divining rod, leaving it up to Dean to figure out how to drive there.  Yeah, plot reasons...)

Then at least she's got money, shelter, a way to contact people, and some protection.  I think they should've had Castiel brand her ribs with the same Enochian warding they got.  I've got a bad feeling that we're going to end up seeing a "Lucifer possesses Mary so Sam will be forced to say yes to being his vessel again" storyline.  Really hope I'm wrong (please let me be wrong).  I really wish Bobby was still here, I think he would've been a good person to talk to for her.  He could relate stories of the boys growing up, of John.  He could tell her about the argument over licorice, or Jet Li vs Chuck Norris.  Dean working on Baby.  Any number of stories.  Since he was privy to most of what happened to them after John died, he'd be able to answer a lot of questions from her, when she was ready to ask them.  And yeah, he'd also be a stranger, but he wouldn't keep calling her Mom or expect anything from her.

When Rowena sent Lucifer to the bottom of the ocean, did anyone besides me think SHARKIFER ?  Have to say, I'm liking her new look.  No more taking teeny steps in a dress!  And look at her not needing the Big Strong Men for a rescue (although she probably did need a lift back to town, which is why she waited for them).  I was really surprised she wasn't pissed at FERGUS for leaving her to Lucifer, but she didn't even bring it up!

The truck!  I have so many questions about the truck.  Why is Castiel still driving it, instead of the pimpmobile?  Didn't Marvatron bring it back to the bunker when he was hovering around outside, wanting to help with Amara?  Won't the original owner eventually report it stolen?  What if one of his friends sees the truck?  If they were only 3 hours from Lebanon, AND he knew WHERE Lebanon was, he's probably from the area.

Had to laugh at Dean's reference to Sam's "s'mores feet".  Easy to joke when it wasn't YOUR feet getting flame-broiled!

For the case, I was confused a bit with the crying baby.  None of the children were babies, so who was crying?  I don't think it was Lucas, I think it was the girl's doll (one of those "cry like a real baby" dolls) Lucas was using to get someone's attention who could save them.  Lucas couldn't leave the house, but the baby's cries could be heard from outside.  Also +1 to the guy for calling 911 and reporting a baby in distress.  Succinct and to the point!  I would've called them and said something like "There's this baby crying in an abandoned house, seems real shady." 

Loved the roll-away bed against the wall in the motel room.  I too wondered who was relegated to using it.  Liked Mary's new haircut, Dean's jab at Sam's hair, and Sam's frowny response.  I work in a mostly male profession, and most don't notice at all when I change my hair; if they do, it's something like a week later.  At least it only took them only a few minutes!  And her slide into the weapons bag to grab the salt shotgun, I SWEAR Dean did this exact move at some point, but I can't place the episode.  (Adding this:  I think what I'm remembering is from last season's finale, when they were ghostbusting.  Dean slid across the floor into the weapons bag to grab the crystal)  Also the camera on Mary when she's fighting the spirit for control, the overhead shot of her upturned face, reminded me of the scene from "Home" where she tells the ghost to get out of her house (so does the "I'm sorry" she says in "Home" and in this episode, both to Sam)

It's interesting how the whole episode Dean's in denial, while Sam's being pragmatic.  Since Sam is the one who chose to run away from the life repeatedly, he can see how badly Mary is coping.  I don't know if he thought she would leave so suddenly, but I think her leaving wasn't totally unexpected.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

In that vein, I don`t like dialogue like "why can`t we have a good thing for once"  "Mom is not a thing" that is so manipulative. Come on, he obviously did not say that Mary is a thing. He referred to the current situation. It`s not uncommon for people to phrase it like that. And Sam

I really didn't understand the point of that line at all. Was it supposed to make Sam look like an asshole or to make Dean look insensitive and that Mary was just a thing for Dean to have? I was actually really angry about that dialogue. Why would Sam EVER say that to do Dean?

[Boopsahoy]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

If you do anything wrong, you can at least try to fix it. She told them they were wrong for her basically because they had grown up. That is not something they can do anything about. And as for loving them, she just told them in so many words that she didn`t. She loves their kid selves, not them. The distinction was clear to me. So I found the obvious sugarcoating lie of "I love you" right after that speech disingenuous. Why say it? To make herself feel better after the fact? If she can`t connect to them, so be it but  to me that was giving false hope. At least to Sam, Dean had already retreated too much to buy into it. 

I am glad I'm not the only one that felt that way.  I think there were so many better ways to say goodbye. I get that she was trying to be honest but sometimes tact is more important than honesty IMHO.

[Wynne88]

I bet the way Sam and Dean looked at each other after everything she said got on her nerves too.  They've been hunting together so long, there's not really a lot of room for a third partner, especially since they seem to be judging every suggestion she makes and pointing out how things have moved along since she's been gone. 

[companionenvy]

I think that Mary is wrong to leave, but I also get it. She hasn't been watching the show for the last eleven years, and doesn't realize exactly how damaging this is gong to be for Sam and Dean, especially Dean. I see no reason to doubt that she intends to come back at some point, and she is, after all, leaving two full-grown men who are actually older than she is, appearances notwithstanding. And, in fact, in a lot of her interactions with her sons, they've actually been protecting her, rather than the other way around, so I can see where she doesn't feel like she's shirking her duty.

A part of me wishes the show had found a plot-plausible reason for her to leave (and part of that part wishes she could have been the one road-tripping with Cas, as little sense as that would make), but while I've criticized the show for excess angst before, I think they're playing fair with this one. I'll be really mad if the Mary arc ends with another crushing personal loss for the Winchesters, which will veer into emotional torture-porn territory for me, but for now, I'll accept the pain as an organic part of the story. Mary's return was never going to be easy.

I do hope that by the end of the season, we get at least one legitimately fun, angst-free Winchester family episode (and yes, I know I am setting myself up for disappointment). 

[catrox14]

As heart breaking as that last scene was with Dean, I was equally upset when Dean had to point his gun at Mary. He was devastated. He was terrified he would have to shoot her.  I couldn't take his face there.

[rue721]

3 hours ago, Splash said:

Honestly, I'm not sure that letting her read John's journal this quickly was the best idea.  I'm generally not one for withholding information from someone, but that was an extremely emotionally charged book written by a man who was consumed by grief over the loss of his wife and whose singular focus was to have his family destroy what destroyed them.  To her, she probably felt that, because of a single choice she made, she robbed them of any other choices, other than to become hunters.

Since Mary is constantly saying good things about John and is clearly deeply in love with him, I think the most pragmatic thing for Sam and Dean to have done would actually have been to talk up how much they take after John and how much they love him, too. I mean, even if Mary couldn't connect with Sam and Dean as her sons, she might have been able to connect with them over a shared love and admiration for her husband/their father. In that context, I think that giving Mary the journal was smart (although I don't think that's at all why Sam did it!).

I think it would have been out of character for them to have just told Mary whatever they thought she wanted to hear, and imo it's fine that that's not what they've been doing. But my point is that imo talking about John more (rather than less) might actually have helped them all bond more easily, since he's basically the only thing they have in common right now. They could even have held a little wake for him and just told nice stories about him all night (when she couldn't sleep). I actually don't think it even occurred to them to help her mourn him, though?

Or maybe they just felt too uncomfortable to approach her like that?

Something else that's interesting to me is that Sam and Dean both know that losing Mary drove John over the edge. Yet they don't seem at all worried that losing John will do the same to her? I don't think they should be worried about that, really -- but at the same time, I wonder why they aren't?

[catrox14]

Here's what I don't get about John's journal.

I was always under the impression that it primarily consisted stuff about hunting; monsters, demons, exorcism rituals, a few pictures, his Marine insignia, code names of his contacts like (T for Tara). I never had the impression it contained much about his personal life at all.  I mean if it did surely Dean and Sam would have talked about what was in there if it was about them. But I really don't remember anything like that coming up in the past 11 years.  I don't think Adam was in his journal. Sam deduced from John's writing about going to Minnesota on a hunting trip that Adam could really be their brother. 

Edited October 31, 2016 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

There was the entry about how he went to Missouri and learned the truth.

And I might have imagined it, but did they mention something about pages being missing and those would've been the pages where Adam was mentioned?

But for the most part, I think you're right.

Did anyone read the John's Journal entries available online back in the day and could shed light on what else might've been in there? I wish that I had, but I wasn't very online savvy back then.

[mertensia]

Mary is doing the equivalent of coming out of a long coma and trying to come to terms with everything that happened while she was gone. Like I said before, to her Sam was a six month old she was breastfeeding a week ago or so. Now he's 33 (?). 

[ahrtee]

57 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

There was the entry about how he went to Missouri and learned the truth.

And I might have imagined it, but did they mention something about pages being missing and those would've been the pages where Adam was mentioned?

But for the most part, I think you're right.

Did anyone read the John's Journal entries available online back in the day and could shed light on what else might've been in there? I wish that I had, but I wasn't very online savvy back then.

I just looked at the SPN Wiki and there's a page for "John Winchester's Journal Entries" that has many (or most?) of the entries from right after Mary's death; and another page that I think shows images of the actual pages (with the newspaper clippings etc.)  

Once upon a time I read the published book, John Winchester's Journal. (No, I didn't buy it.  The library had a copy.) I can't remember if it was in there or actually in the show, but somewhere it was mentioned that half of the journal was personal/private thoughts, more like a diary, and the other half was about hunting.  The book included the "diary" half, where he talked about how much he missed Mary (especially every year on their anniversary and the anniversary of her death), what (and how) the boys were doing, and what he was learning about hunting. I'm guessing that when hunting took over his life, he cut out the personal and the journal became just a list of monsters and how to kill them.  

As I recall, the "personal" part included things like Dean being traumatized and not talking, about him crawling into Sammy's crib to comfort him every night, and about demons being after Sam as far back as elementary school (which, of course, John never mentioned in the show).  (It also mentioned John giving Dean the Impala for his 18th birthday, and the Roadhouse and the hunt that got Bill Harvelle killed.)  So there should be quite a few eye-opening entries for Mary to read; it also shows (a) that he mourned her for all those years, and (b) how he (and the boys) actually grew into the men they became, so (to Mary) it might be considered watching a speeded-up version of Dean and Sam's life, bringing her up to their adulthood, even if not to the present.  It would be interesting to see if they reference any of that when Mary does show up again.

The back of his journal had phone numbers/contacts (we saw that in Dead Man's Blood, when Dean found Daniel Elkin's phone number there); and yes, it was mentioned in Jump the Shark that the pages relating to Adam were ripped out (though, since it was a ring binder notebook that could be opened instead of spiral bound, there was no need to rip 'em out (or leave edges to show that something was missing.))  

Edited October 31, 2016 by ahrtee
Clarification (I hope). And to correct what SPN Wiki actually has.

[AwesomO4000]

Thanks @ahrtee.

And I thought that I remembered pages being removed that had potentially personal stuff. (In that case, Adam.)

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Thanks @ahrtee.

And I thought that I remembered pages being removed that had potentially personal stuff. (In that case, Adam.)

Though the pages that were missing were related to the hunt where he met Adam's mother, so in theory they were about *her*, since he didn't find out about Adam till 11 (or 12?) years later.  (And I'm assuming by that time he knew enough not to put that kind of personal information where Sam and Dean--or anyone with a grudge against him--might potentially find it)

Edited October 31, 2016 by ahrtee

[SueB]

We've also discussed that because of cupid marking them, John may have been more irrational about Mary's death.  I think the same could be true for Mary.

[DittyDotDot]

I wonder if they told Mary about the Chuck's books? While I think giving her John's journal was a good start for her to fill in the blanks of who John became, I kinda think the books would tell her who they became. Although, maybe not? They're not complete--Chuck left plenty of things out--and maybe it's too much information?

Which, really is the problem for Mary right now, it's all too much information. 

8 hours ago, rue721 said:

Since Mary is constantly saying good things about John and is clearly deeply in love with him, I think the most pragmatic thing for Sam and Dean to have done would actually have been to talk up how much they take after John and how much they love him, too. I mean, even if Mary couldn't connect with Sam and Dean as her sons, she might have been able to connect with them over a shared love and admiration for her husband/their father.

I keep waiting for the conversation where they basically point out that John, and their childhood wasn't perfect, but it wasn't all bad. And they tell her some of the good times they had when they were kids. Times they defied John and set off fireworks in a field on the Fourth of July; times when they were all together for Thanksgiving, even though all they had was a bucket of chicken; things to reassure her their life isn't just ugliness and loss and to remind themselves of that too. 

I know none of them are quite ready for that, but was kinda expecting it at the end of Momma Mia. Instead they all separated to think of their memories rather than coming together to share them. 

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Did anyone read the John's Journal entries available online back in the day and could shed light on what else might've been in there? I wish that I had, but I wasn't very online savvy back then.

Here's the link to the page @ahrtee was referring to: http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=John's_journal. While not necessarily discussed on-screen, it does appear John would write many personal things in his journal, especially in the early days. 

And a link to what the entries that used to be on the official website back when they had different hunter's journals up on it: http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=The_Journal_(diary_entries). It details the days and months following the fire.

Also, I wonder how much personal crap is sitting in his storage unit? It could be a fun episode having them all go and clean out the unit to move all the info to the bunker. Oh the stuff they could find...

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think Adam was in his journal. Sam deduced from John's writing about going to Minnesota on a hunting trip that Adam could really be their brother. 

John tore out the pages of his journal referring to Adam's mom after he learned about Adam. All that was left was he was heading to Minnesota for a hunt. 

[MysteryGuest]

9 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I keep waiting for the conversation where they basically point out that John, and their childhood wasn't perfect, but it wasn't all bad. And they tell her some of the good times they had when they were kids.

 These were the scenes I was waiting for, but they never happened.  I have to assume they happened offscreen, because to assume they didn't happen would just be ridiculous.  It would have been nice to see some of that interaction instead of the endless Lucifer stuff, or the drawn out torture scenes.  I could have done with less of that and more of the family stuff.  I'm guessing that the writers felt that would be too boring for the audience.

[DittyDotDot]

13 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

 These were the scenes I was waiting for, but they never happened.  I have to assume they happened offscreen, because to assume they didn't happen would just be ridiculous.  It would have been nice to see some of that interaction instead of the endless Lucifer stuff, or the drawn out torture scenes.  I could have done with less of that and more of the family stuff.  I'm guessing that the writers felt that would be too boring for the audience.

I'm still holding out hope we'll get some of these scenes. It seems to me, Mary wasn't asking and the boys weren't telling because no one wanted to break their fragile bubble of happiness. I think Mary spilling how she was feeling is actually a good thing because when they meet up again in the near future they can proceed more honestly for all of them. Something had to break to get them all talking...to bad the talking won't happen for a bit, though.

[catrox14]

9 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

John tore out the pages of his journal referring to Adam's mom after he learned about Adam. All that was left was he was heading to Minnesota for a hunt. 

Oh right. I knew there was something about why Sam deduced it.

But aside from that, and Missouri I consider a hunting colleague more than a friend no matter what bullshit she said about them being kids (Dean was not a goofy looking kid, NOPE), I'm trying to reconcile how little Dean and Sam have talked about any personal things in the journal with Mary finding something in their that sets her off and away from the boys.  

15 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

 These were the scenes I was waiting for, but they never happened.  I have to assume they happened offscreen, because to assume they didn't happen would just be ridiculous.  It would have been nice to see some of that interaction instead of the endless Lucifer stuff, or the drawn out torture scenes.  I could have done with less of that and more of the family stuff.  I'm guessing that the writers felt that would be too boring for the audience.

Oh if they think that stuff is too boring well, I find relentless torture boring after a while and boring demon conversations.  I don't think it's even that as much as IMO they just can't seem to balance anything out anymore. Like I thought s10 was pretty well balanced if not in depth.

[MysteryGuest]

Well, maybe like DittyDot says, those conversations are yet to come.  I hope so.

[ahrtee]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But aside from that, and Missouri I consider a hunting colleague more than a friend no matter what bullshit she said about them being kids (Dean was not a goofy looking kid, NOPE), I'm trying to reconcile how little Dean and Sam have talked about any personal things in the journal with Mary finding something in their that sets her off and away from the boys.  

 

They never said (or even implied, IMO) that Mary left because of anything she read in the journal, except that it reminded her of what she'd lost.  I think she's been feeling uncomfortable from the beginning (can I say "I called it" because I mentioned in the 12.1 thread that she *should* be feeling uncomfortable to have two men she'd never seen before who were also older than her not only call her mom but expect her to *be* their mom?)   I think Mary was just feeling overwhelmed and needed to get away to regroup (and mourn what she'd lost) before she can figure out her new relationship with her sons--not just who they are now, but how she's supposed to fit in.  It's not really about or against them; I think Sam understands it, and Dean does understand logically, but emotionally, the hurt (of feeling abandoned again? Of worrying if it's something he did wrong, which goes back to the childhood trauma) is in the forefront.  

I'd forgotten this, but the wiki entry on John's journal reminded me that Henry Winchester also had an emotional reaction to reading John's journal--except he felt guilty for what John had gone through and wanted to go back to change it.  From the wiki:

HENRY turns to face DEAN. The symbol stops glowing.

HENRY: You cannot begin to understand how I felt after reading John's journal.

DEAN: Oh, I think I can. See, I've read that thing more times than you can imagine, and it hurts every time.

HENRY: Maybe so, but you didn't let him down! I did! Just like you said!

DEAN: Well, I was wrong.

HENRY: No! No, you were right. And I'm going to go back and give him the life he deserves, not the one he was forced to live.

That (especially the part I bolded) indicates to me that it wasn't the information about hunting that was the point, but the emotional, personal things that John included.  And honestly, did you expect Dean to discuss any of the emotional entries he read in John's journal with *anyone*...much less Sam (or Mary)?  I could see him leaving the journal out in the hopes that Mary would read it and find out all the things he can't talk about. Sam just gave it to her directly; and I'm pretty sure it was to fill in the blanks, not just to read about how to kill a wendigo.  

Until proven wrong, I'm going to assume (or hope!) that the writers will address the boys' childhoods and the roles both John and Mary played in it when she returns, but I won't count on it being a particularly satisfying conversation.  *sigh*  

[MysteryGuest]

It might have actually played better if Sam and Dean had called Mary, Mary, rather than mom...at least in the beginning.  They are grown men, and she is more than a bit overwhelmed with the idea.  It might have been a bit easier to ease her into it a bit.

[SueB]

I'm okay with them calling her Mom because that's who she is to them.  And it works from a narrative perspective, IMO, because it IS so awkward.  

At EWPopfest this weekend, Jensen mentioned how he did this weird "turn away" thing like a teenager.  And this struck me because 1) that means Jensen was playing the emotion of the moment and the turn away must have taken HIM by surprise when he did it (damn, I love that man), and 2) it wasn't scripted. I have full faith in Bobo Berens that he would never give Jensen stage direction for emotions .. because Bobo is VERY smart.  So, Jensen, channeling Dean, instinctively knew that Dean would literally regress and shut down.  Again, I love his acting.  And of course Jared's "we're right here" was just HEARTBREAKING too.

*sob*

We'll get what we need from Mary, Sam & Dean.  I have faith in the writers (yes, I can list all of you who will highlight that sentence and rant on about how shitty the writers are ... well, not IMO).  

[nara]

I wonder if they should have recast the role of Mary with a younger actress in heaven and for the return to Earth . I  like the current one, but having someone younger than the brothers would have highlighted her discomfort better. 

[MysteryGuest]

21 minutes ago, nara said:

I wonder if they should have recast the role of Mary with a younger actress in heaven and for the return to Earth . I  like the current one, but having someone younger than the brothers would have highlighted her discomfort better. 

It was easy to re-cast the role when they were going back in time to when Mary was a young woman.  But they have used Sam Smith throughout the series as "current" Mary, so I think it would have been weird to have a different actress playing her now.  Even though Samantha doesn't look 29, for me at least, it's easier to get past that than it would be to see an entirely different actress in the role.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

We'll get what we need from Mary, Sam & Dean

I don't have the faith you do in the writers to make this more palatable or that it will satisfy my particular needs as a viewer.I'm jaded now. I do appreciate your enthusiasm.

1 hour ago, nara said:

I wonder if they should have recast the role of Mary with a younger actress in heaven and for the return to Earth . I  like the current one, but having someone younger than the brothers would have highlighted her discomfort better. 

I'm worried if they brought young Mary back that BuckLemming specifically would not be able to resist having Dean making some inappropriate remark about her being hot like he did in s4. I mean sure he said he was going to go to Hell again for it, but still it was not great, Bob!

[nara]

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm worried if they brought young Mary back that BuckLemming specifically would not be able to resist having Dean making some inappropriate remark about her being hot like he did in s4. I mean sure he said he was going to go to Hell again for it, but still it was not great, Bob!

In all fairness, I didn't get the impression that Dean was attracted to his mother in that episode.  It was more that he never really considered whether or not she was good looking.  Therefore, it came as surprise to him when he realized she was.  I had the same experience with my parents.  I had seen plenty of pictures of them as youngsters when I was growing up, but it wasn't until I came upon pictures of them when I was adult (30's) that I realized that they were good-looking. It surprised me -- and it was more about my growing up and being able to see them as something other than mom and dad than anything about  them.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, nara said:

In all fairness, I didn't get the impression that Dean was attracted to his mother in that episode.  It w

Holy shit of course he wasn't. I never said he was.  Carver wrote it that Dean realized how creepy it sounded. My concern with likes of Buck Lemming, who suck donkey balls and paint Dean as the horniest horndog that ever horndogged would not treat it with the humor that Carver did. That's my point. Not that Dean IS actually attracted to his mother on any level.

Edited November 1, 2016 by catrox14

[nara]

26 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Holy shit of course he wasn't. I never said he was.  Carver wrote it that Dean realized how creepy it sounded. My concern with likes of Buck Lemming, who suck donkey balls and paint Dean as the horniest horndog that ever horndogged would not treat it with the humor that Carver did. That's my point. Not that Dean IS actually attracted to his mother on any level.

Seems like I misunderstood your comment.  I thought you were equating the 2 situations and that you were saying Dean was/would be a horndog in both.

[catrox14]

Just now, nara said:

Seems like I misunderstood your comment.  I thought you were equating the 2 situations and that you were saying Dean was/would be a horndog in both.

To clarify, Dean would absolutely NOT be a horndog towards his mother. What I AM saying is that I do not trust the writers Buck Lemming to not try and write him that way or mishandling a joke to make Dean look creepy.

[companionenvy]

^Agreed, Catrox, but I'd think that you, of all people, would trust JA to make it work :)

Although I'll admit there are times that even he can't save the writing. 

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

^Agreed, Catrox, but I'd think that you, of all people, would trust JA to make it work :)

Although I'll admit there are times that even he can't save the writing. 

Oh he'd do his best, but he might not be able to save it. But I'm just glad it's not a worry in the end :)

Edited November 1, 2016 by catrox14

[Bessie]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'm worried if they brought young Mary back that BuckLemming specifically would not be able to resist having Dean making some inappropriate remark about her being hot like he did in s4. I mean sure he said he was going to go to Hell again for it, but still it was not great, Bob!

True story. When my bff and I were in our early thirties (we've been friends since we were seven years old) we were looking at pictures of her dad when he was in his twenties. And he was hot!  When I told her that's what I thought, she said "I know, right?". She completely agreed that he was a hottie and was quite proud of it. It never occurred to me those thoughts were inappropriate. We were just stunned at how handsome he was. So, I get what your saying @nara.

But I'm with you @catrox14 in hoping that the gruesome twosome stay far, far away from any jokes about it. 

[catrox14]

My problem with that whole scene was Dean saying  "Mom's a babe". Back in my day in college and in my twenties and thirties "babe" was only ever used when describing/measuring a woman's sexual attractiveness(how 'fuckable' she is). It was never used in any other way. If Dean had said, "Sam, wherever you are, Mom's hot!", I wouldn't have been  bothered about it all, because to me, "hot" or "hottie" is a general acknowledgment that someone is good looking and sexy but does not overtly sexualize them the same way "babe" does. Jensen made it funny but in general it was kind of ew, no Dean. Don't say that about your mom!. Of course, Dean wasn't horndogging after his Mom because later we see him describe her as more than a "babe" and appreciated her for all her other attributes, but yeah it's always kind of bugged me that in the middle of Dean stalking her and spying on her on a date with John, say "she's a babe". Bleh. Amusing on one level, kinda creepy on another. YMMV

But here with Mary, I'm glad they didn't recast her. I don't think Amy Gumenick was available and I would be irritated if someone other than Amy or Sam Smith played Mary. Like I won't accept John being anyone other than Matt Cohen or JDM. 

[Myrelle]

So my initial reaction after this one was over was that I can't watch this show anymore. I can't watch Dean be hurt like that anymore and not have it addressed by his loved ones. But the first part was only wishful thinking. I can't give up JA/Dean, even though I could easily give up the show without him, but I'm a slave to both the actor and the character at this point. Hopefully the resurrecting Mary storyline won't just be about Poor, Poor Mary. Her choices and decisions before she died affected her entire family greatly. We know she realizes that by making the deal with the YED she ruined Sam's life, but the secrets and lies started with her, too, and they of course led to her worst nightmare coming true plus neither one of her children is now capable of having any kind of a normal adult relationship with anyone outside of the completely dysfunctional one that they have with each other. Good times.

I really hope that Dean's abandonment issues will be recognized by his family as the monster that they are for Dean and that his being parentified as a child by John will not be glossed over. But I'm getting the vibe that this will indeed happen yet again, even with that amazing performance by Mr. Ackles in that last scene. The brother scene was a portent for Dean being told to get over himself again and help his poor, poor mother who just has/had it so much worse than he ever did and/or(for reasons...) it will be far more important that Dean just suck it up again. Maybe this time we'll be lucky, though, and not get a boo hoo, princess added in there.

Not very hopeful for S12 after these first three. My only hope lies in the writers not opting to do the cut and paste in that regard again, so yeah...not very hopeful.

This episode, itself, was not bad but the weird brother scene and the ending were a bummer-again, mostly for what they portend for me, according to the writing history on this show.

[companionenvy]

I think you're being a little hard on Mary, Myrelle.

First of all, given everything we learned in season 5 about the apocalypse, it seems to me that Sam would have been screwed no matter what. He was the chosen vessel for Lucifer -- not Ava, not Jake, not Andy. It was apparently really important that he and Dean (or, at worst, someone else of their bloodline) be the vessels for this war between brothers. So, if the YED hadn't managed to get Mary to make a deal, the angels would have figured out another way to make things happen. 

But more importantly,  while Mary might have been the first, she's not the only person in the show to make a deal or do something similar to save someone's life that wound up having disastrous consequences. It is kind of the Winchester MO. Dean made the deal to save Sam, and wound up breaking the first seal. Sam (and, to a lesser extent, Cas's) efforts to rid Dean of the MoC unleashed the Darkness.  To me, how culpable these things are comes down to how foreseeable the effects of their actions were. I blame Sam a lot more than Dean, for instance, because Sam had a hell of a lot of warning that the Book of the Damned was really bad news, and it wasn't like he had Dean's corpse in front of him, the way Dean had Sam's during All Hell Breaks Loose, and Mary had John's in In the Beginning. 

Dean, by contrast, had no reason to think the consequences of his demon deal would be anything other than his own damnation. Since Mary didn't know what she was signing on to, her action was more foolish, but I certainly don't think that Mary anticipated that the thing he was asking of her would involve her future child.

We also need to put it in context. Mary was nineteen years old. Her parents had just been killed, and her fiancee was lying dead in front of her. I'll willing to cut her some slack.

As for this episode, while I'm like you in that I care too much about the characters to quit SPN at this point in any case, I'm willing to wait and see how the arc resolves itself before getting too angry. My heart broke for Dean, but it is only episode 3. The Mary arc could still wind up NOT being just another in a series of personal devastations for the Winchesters. 

[Myrelle]

We have to wait to see how the arc resolves itself. But I don't have to watch Dean's issues get tossed aside again for reasons.... and I'm not going to. I skipped a number of episodes last season and in S8 and feel like I missed nothing, so I'm prepared, but hope is in short supply for me regarding that, after this one.  I'll be able to be more sympathetic towards Mary, when or if, we get some sympathy for Dean and what he's been through since she died from her(or from anyone for that matter). So as ever, the resolution will mean everything and these writers have an absolutely abysmal track record where it concerns other characters on the show sympathizing with Dean's plight.

[catrox14]

I'm kind of bothered by the below exchange between Dean and Sam .

Quote

SAM: You know, I'm worried about Mom.

DEAN: Why?

SAM: You're not?

DEAN: She's back. I mean, yeah, she's still working out the kinks. We're all still working out the kinks. But, I mean, can't we, for once, just not turn everything into a problem? You know, can we, for once, just have one good thing?

SAM: Mom's not a thing. Okay. Look, I'm happy, too, Dean. I am. I'm overjoyed. But...there's something about her. I mean, something's going on with her.

DEAN: Yeah, she's adjusting.

SAM: No, she's struggling. I mean, she's trying to bury herself in hunting to avoid dealing.

DEAN: And how do you know that?

SAM: Years of personal experience. I don't know, man. Uh... Like mother, like sons. ♪ [ Sighs ]

Read more at: http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=105&t=29330

 

What is the above bolded trying to imply about Dean here?  That Dean doesn't see Mary as a whole person? That she's just a thing to Dean?  I'm gonna fucking throw the bullshit flag on that because Dean KNEW HER as a young whole woman in 1973. He spent time with her. He said she was smart and happy and hopeful and a great hunter.  

If it's not that, then why would Sam take what Dean said and convert it in his mind that way? Why is Sam chastising Dean for something Dean didn't say and IMO didn't actually imply either?

What message is that scene trying to communicate about Dean here?

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I'm kind of bothered by the below exchange between Dean and Sam .

What is the above bolded trying to imply about Dean here?  That Dean doesn't see Mary as a whole person? That she's just a thing to Dean?  I'm gonna fucking throw the bullshit flag on that because Dean KNEW HER as a young whole woman in 1973. He spent time with her. He said she was smart and happy and hopeful and a great hunter.  

If it's not that, then why would Sam take what Dean said and convert it in his mind that way? Why is Sam chastising Dean for something Dean didn't say and IMO didn't actually imply either?

What message is that scene trying to communicate about Dean here?

I think you might be reading too much into that (even though, yeah, I don't trust the writers either most of the time...)  But IMO it was a tossaway line (maybe intended as a joke, maybe to acknowledge that fans might take offense at that-- ie, "mom is not a thing," and head them off from complaining about it).  I'm pretty sure it wasn't intended to make any particular point.  But YMMV.