S06.E11: Surprise Surprise!

[GreatKazu]

2 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

I didn't know if the documents presented by Dawn were the adoption papers or some other agreement spelling out the details of the open adoption. 

The part that Dawn is explaining to Cate and Tyler is the open agreement they signed. We discussed this on the C&T thread. I believe in that thread is where I posted what was written on that page of the document. It is pretty much just a piece of paper detailing what C&T are requesting from B&T such as DVDs of her birthday parties, photo requests, visitation, and other things that, IMO, are crossing the line. It is NOT a legal document. It is not a binding contract. It is just a list of requests along with the notation that they are aware it is not a legal document and that B&T hold all the cards. In other words, they don't have to abide by any of the requests of C&T. It is at their discretion, and that is the part that Dawn points out to C&T in that scene. C&T are being reminded of that fact.

Quote

I agree, I don't believe she had all the facts, or understood them when she signed away ever being able to see Carly.  It's clear in her reaction to seeing that she did!

I may not have been clear in my post. I actually do believe she was given all the facts. Catelynn seems to be upset at no longer having visitations with Carly. Her saying she was only sixteen years of age may be her response to hearing from Dawn that she never thought her visitations with Carly were at the discretion of B&T. Cate may have thought visitations were a sure thing. I don't think she is having any regrets from the actual adoption.

I could have sworn Cate said at one time she was aware of the visitations and all that came with it were at the discretion of B&T.  Not recent, but more like a season or two after TM began.

As mamadrama pointed out, the whole MTV storyline arc didn't help whatsoever. I agree.

Edited November 3, 2016 by GreatKazu

[starfire]

Catelynn apparently should have been appointed a guardian by the court.  I don't recall it ever being talked about on the show, and I don't think she was emancipated.  I just Googled and found this info about Michigan adoption law.

"A court-appointed guardian must act on behalf of any unemancipated minor parent who consents to an adoption of a child or who releases a child to a child-placing agency for adoption."

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dhs/DHS-PUB-0823_221566_7.pdf

[GreatKazu]

23 minutes ago, starfire said:

Catelynn apparently should have been appointed a guardian by the court.  I don't recall it ever being talked about on the show, and I don't think she was emancipated.  I just Googled and found this info about Michigan adoption law.

"A court-appointed guardian must act on behalf of any unemancipated minor parent who consents to an adoption of a child or who releases a child to a child-placing agency for adoption."

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dhs/DHS-PUB-0823_221566_7.pdf

Maybe a guardian was appointed, but they probably didn't want to be shown on the show or they were not allowed to mention any of the legal proceedings.

Was there any mention of one in her book?

Edited November 3, 2016 by GreatKazu

[GreatKazu]

Here is what Catelynn said this season:

Quote

Later when Tyler and Catelyn told Tyler's mother about the possibility that Brandon and Teresa would cut off contact, Tyler's mother said "I think it's just the reality of being told what you can and what you can't do."

Tyler responded:  "Especially when you feel inside that you have the right to do it." That is, post pictures of his child.

Catelynn laid out the ugly truth: "The thing is we don't have the right to do it. We signed everything away. We don't have any rights at all."

Catelynn was aware of her rights. She knew they didn't have any.

http://www.firstmotherforum.com/2015/04/tyler-baltierras-adoption-regrets.html

Edited November 3, 2016 by GreatKazu

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

2 hours ago, CofCinci said:

Catelynn and Tyler were shown in the 16&P episode sharing that they thought Carly could end up spending summers with them and would come to be with them when she turned 18.  They were dumb, poor kids who were exploited.

Agreed. 

But now they have Nova. And they made money promoting the very adoption agency that exploited them (and from stories on the Internet, also exploited, pressured, and manipulated others like them...which they perpetuated by shilling for Bethany). 

Like I said before, I feel for 16 year old Cate placing her baby because she was being pressured by Tyler and exploited by Bethany. But that sympathy has waned. I think we are going to see Catelynn and Tyler's true feelings about open adoption now that they have even more limited with Carly (which I agree is in her best interest) and since they no longer seem to be on the Bethany payroll. If Bethany is smart, they'll re-hire C&T as mouthpieces ASAP to make sure C&T don't go about further sullying the agency's name and open adoption. 

ETA: This would probably be problematic since I doubt the conservative "Christian" adoption agency wants potheads who had another child out of wedlock without truly bettering their situation as the faces of the agency. 

Edited November 3, 2016 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[GreatKazu]

@MyPeopleAreNordic

You put it so well in that previous post about having sympathy for a teen, but not the adult Catelynn.

I have wondered lately if Bethany may cut off C&T as spokespersons due to their on-camera behavior.

[MissMel]

Ever noticed whenever a there is a form to be filled out about a minor child and the signature line says "Parent/Guardian Signature" underneath? That is how Catelynn's signature is legal. She was the parent when she signed the forms. Age doesn't matter, being the parent does. That's also why the hospital wouldn't allow the handoff to be done on their property. April did not sign off on her minor child's paperwork allowing it. 

About 13 years ago, my friend's 15 year old daughter had a baby. Both mothers took their child to the same pediatrician. (Helps to have both kids going to the same doctor since the 15 year old mother had no driver's license.) At this particular appointment, both children needed vaccines. The 15 year old mother did not want to get the shot but her mother overruled her and said she had to get it. When it came time for the baby's shots, the 15 year old popped off and said, "You gonna make him get his shots too, Grandma." In that snotty tone teenagers seem to conveniently possess. The nurse explained that each mother had to sign for their own child to receive the vaccine. So as a minor, her mother had to give permission for her. But as a parent, she had to give permission for her child. 

Back to the show, I think Catelynn is recognizing how she made a very grownup decision using her teenage body and mind. 

[heatherchandler]

15 hours ago, jumper sage said:

Her friends were trying to talk to him, everyone was drinking.  He was little.  She basically said something like he embarrassed her in front of her friends and took him into the women's stall and it sounded like she pulled down his pants and was spanking him hard.  The whole thing was horrible.  It was all about her and he was just an ornament that would not conform to an adult situation.

That is awful!  I did not see this, I must have missed her special.  It makes me so angry.  Bentley is such a good kid.

 

14 hours ago, CofCinci said:

If I remember correctly, April wouldn't sign the papers -- so that meant they couldn't do the adoption in the actual hospital.  They had to go outside on the sidewalk to sign/transfer Carly.

I always thought that was weird, and shady, but obviously the only legal way to do it.  It just struck me as so "back alley."

 

13 hours ago, poopchute said:

What did she not understand about it?  Seems pretty straightforward with no confusing language or big legal words that regular people don't understand.  I could see not understanding certain legal terminology but this doesn't seem to have that at all.  

I don't know, but in the clip she seems to be confused.  If Dawn is pulling out the paperwork, to me that means that there is something she needs to clarify to Catelynn.  If everything was understood, there would be no reason to go down the line items.  It was pointed out that she knew that she has no real rights, as she has stated as such in the past.  But does she really grasp what that means? 

 

13 hours ago, CofCinci said:

Catelynn and Tyler were shown in the 16&P episode sharing that they thought Carly could end up spending summers with them and would come to be with them when she turned 18.  They were dumb, poor kids who were exploited.

That is the thing, they seemed to not fully grasp reality. 

[poopchute]

Do we know if Catelyn can read? Because I see nothing unclear about that document. Did she sign her actual signature or is her signature just an X?

[Brooklynista]

41 minutes ago, poopchute said:

Do we know if Catelyn can read? Because I see nothing unclear about that document. Did she sign her actual signature or is her signature just an X?

I always think back to early Teen Mom when Catelynn needed a passing grade on an English exam to graduate, the camera panned over the test. The questions seemed to be very remedial and basic and I believe she only eeked out a C on that test.  I really question how cognizant she was of what she was signing when Dawn waved those papers in her face and she had Tyler in her ear threatening to leave.

[MargeGunderson]

At some point, there's nothing even a lawyer, counselor or other responsible, level-headed person can make someone else understand if the other person refuses to accept what they are being told or hears only what they want to hear. I'd have more respect for Catelynn (meaning a tiny, tiny amount) if she just admitted that she regrets it, not that she was misled, which doesn't align with previous statements she's given that indicate she did understand the terms and conditions. Maybe she could finally find some peace with it if she wasn't looking for someone else to blame for her regret.

[GreatKazu]

Cate should blame the weed since no doubt she was high when she went over those documents.

[DangerousMinds]

19 hours ago, poopchute said:

What did she not understand about it?  Seems pretty straightforward with no confusing language or big legal words that regular people don't understand.  I could see not understanding certain legal terminology but this doesn't seem to have that at all.  

I worked as a counselor at Planned parenthood, AND as a counselor with Catholic Charities. The realities and choices are the same. And I have no doubt that all of the pregnant teens I counseled understood what choices they were making.

[SPLAIN]

Cate may be a 20 something woman, but she has to be mentally stunted after years of alcohol and marijuana use which began at around 12 years old, per her own words. It is not an excuse, merely an observation I have of how she behaves and reacts in certain situations. She doesn't retreat to that 16 year old girl. She is likely still mentally a 16 year old girl.

3 hours ago, Brooklynista said:

I always think back to early Teen Mom when Catelynn needed a passing grade on an English exam to graduate, the camera panned over the test. The questions seemed to be very remedial and basic and I believe she only eeked out a C on that test.  I really question how cognizant she was of what she was signing when Dawn waved those papers in her face and she had Tyler in her ear threatening to leave.

Plus the drug use that was going on. To this day it continues, and I fully believe there has been more than just marijuana and beer being ingested by Catelynn. This girl has fried her brain over the years, and it is possible she may have comprehension issues and other mental issues that have not been addressed by anyone while she was in school or maybe those things were mentioned to her mother, but we know April being in the throes of her addiction was not going to concern herself with any issues Cate was going through.

Going back to my initial point of Cate being mentally stunted, I have watched Butch over the seasons as he behaves more like a giddy young teen. That, to me, shows how his mental health has been stunted by drug use. April is another one. She acts and behaves more like a 17 year old. She is more like Cate's acquaintance and buddy than a parent.  Cate is not immune from suffering the same fate as those two. It might also explain why she hasn't bothered to further her education. Cate realized education is required for the kinds of careers she had aspirations for, and part of that education is being able to do the school work. If she is incapable of comprehending and completing the most basic tasks of school work at a junior high level, anything above that will be very intimidating to her.  That whole thing with the "social working" came to a crash when they were both told what kind of education was required of them in order to enter into such a field. Those two thought they can just pick and choose a career and it would happen overnight without any of the education and hard work that comes with it.

[ginger90]

Between Cate's drug use, drinking, any prescription drugs she's been on ad off over time, her childhood, the adoption, living with Tyler, etc. I am surprised she functions at all. And she does, but we don't see much on the show.

[StatisticalOutlier]

On 11/2/2016 at 1:00 PM, ginger90 said:

How long could she have been employed by Farrah ? Isn't there a minimum before one can file for unemployment?

No minimum, but the amount of benefits a person gets is based on the wages paid over a certain period.

[ReadMeLattice]

I'm not really sure why people are still trying to make the case that what happened with Bethany was illegal. They are a very well known national adoption agency. Are they hyper Christian and pro life and have people had complaints, yes. Are some of those critiques regarding their worldview probably valid, yes. Are they in the business of illegal adoptions or any illegal activity? Absolutely not. They've operated openly for years. They don't do anything illegal. Period. 

I don't feel bad for Cate and Tyler at all. They repeatedly said throughout the series that they knew they had zero legal rights. They absolutely, 100% knew what they were getting into and that document was wildly clear and simple. They have said over and over that they knew the visits could be cut off. Since day 1 they've said that. They were not deceived. They are not Carly's parents in any way. 

Their rabid fans and the reality show $$ and a sense of entitlement are what keep them interested in Carly. Their fans are constantly pushing them to sue, to get a lawyer, calling them Carly's parents, telling them B&T are evil, etc. This has nothing to do with not knowing. Dawn was reminding them because they were demanding things they know full well it is not within their rights to demand, as people who are not connected to Carly any way but emotionally. Last season, Cate said unequivocally, "They could cut off visits if we don't follow the rules." Tyler said this season that he knows the visits could end because he doesn't follow the rules but he doesn't care. Nothing ambiguous about that at all. 

[lidarose9]

C&T are paid to have drama about Carly. They are rewarded for causing trouble for Brandon & Teresa. They would have minimal storyline material without it.

[Darknight]

17 hours ago, Lm2162 said:

I'm not really sure why people are still trying to make the case that what happened with Bethany was illegal. They are a very well known national adoption agency. Are they hyper Christian and pro life and have people had complaints, yes. Are some of those critiques regarding their worldview probably valid, yes. Are they in the business of illegal adoptions or any illegal activity? Absolutely not. They've operated openly for years. They don't do anything illegal. Period. 

I don't feel bad for Cate and Tyler at all. They repeatedly said throughout the series that they knew they had zero legal rights. They absolutely, 100% knew what they were getting into and that document was wildly clear and simple. They have said over and over that they knew the visits could be cut off. Since day 1 they've said that. They were not deceived. They are not Carly's parents in any way. 

Their rabid fans and the reality show $$ and a sense of entitlement are what keep them interested in Carly. Their fans are constantly pushing them to sue, to get a lawyer, calling them Carly's parents, telling them B&T are evil, etc. This has nothing to do with not knowing. Dawn was reminding them because they were demanding things they know full well it is not within their rights to demand, as people who are not connected to Carly any way but emotionally. Last season, Cate said unequivocally, "They could cut off visits if we don't follow the rules." Tyler said this season that he knows the visits could end because he doesn't follow the rules but he doesn't care. Nothing ambiguous about that at all. 

Sorry but the infant adoption world us full of corruption and coercion. There are illegal adoptions happening especially involving birth fathers. Utah has lax laws. C&T adoption wasn't illegal but I'd guess it was full of promises 

[ReadMeLattice]

If they were promised something they haven't gotten, I'm not sure why they've been so clear of their knowledge of the adoption's boundaries since day 1. They seemed very aware even in 16 and Pregnant. 

[guilfoyleatpp]

If C&T want to fight the requirements of the legal adoption based on the fact that they didn't have a clear understanding of the rules when they signed, at least they have the funds to consult one now, unlike many other teens who started out in their position.

[GreatKazu]

16 minutes ago, guilfoyleatpp said:

If C&T want to fight the requirements of the legal adoption based on the fact that they didn't have a clear understanding of the rules when they signed, at least they have the funds to consult one now, unlike many other teens who started out in their position.

But the open adoption agreement portion of the adoption is not part of the binding contract. C&T couldn't sue if they wanted to. They'd have to fight the entire adoption agreement, which they know they can't unless they could prove something illegal was done on Bethany's part.

 

2 hours ago, Darknight said:

Sorry but the infant adoption world us full of corruption and coercion. There are illegal adoptions happening especially involving birth fathers. Utah has lax laws. C&T adoption wasn't illegal but I'd guess it was full of promises 

So true about illegal adoptions all over this planet. As for C&T, they knew their open adoption agreement was not legally binding. Even if it was legally binding, there is that little clause... "at the discretion of Brandon & Teresa." They reserve the right to not abide by anything that was agreed upon. That is why they raised hell when Carly's photos were being plastered on the social media pages of C&T. I am willing to bet little by little B&T have been pulling back on the requests of that open agreement. They have probably stopped with the birthday DVDs. They have probably cut back on the amount of photos they give. C&T tightened the noose around their own necks.

[DoctorWhovian]

Adoption isn't a contract. It does not fall under contract rules.

"In all U.S. jurisdictions, a minor's status as a minor does not impair her consent to relinquish her parental rights, so long as statutory requirements are met. In some jurisdictions, adoption statutes say explicitly that a minor parent can relinquish parental rights and consentto adoption. Even where the statutes are silent, however, courts generally hold that the minor mother can consent."  

"In a majority of U.S. jurisdictions, a minor's decision to relinquish a child for adoption is not only valid, but is regulated exactly the same as an adult's decision.199 In only fifteen states are there different or additional requirements for a minor's decision to place a child for adoption. In four states, a minor must be provided independent legal counsel. In another four states, a court must appoint a guardian ad litem for the minor parent. In five states, a minor's parent must consent to the relinquishment."

From: Malinda L. Seymore, "16 and Pregnant: Minors' Consent to Abortion and Adoption", published in the Yale Journal of Law and Feminism, 2012

Also, the general contract principle (which will vary by statute) is that minors can enter into contracts, but the minor can void the contract either before reaching the age of majority or if they reaffirm the contract after reaching the age of majority. The classic law school example is buying a car at 17, where the 17 year old signs the contract. The minor can void the contract before turning 18 but if they make a payment on the loan after turning 18, the contract is no longer voidable. Aka, don't enter into contracts with minors. 

[greatscott91]

I don't think Nova is the first kid they've filmed being potty trained. I remember Maci and Kyle trying to get Bintlee to pee on a tree in an earlier season, and I remember thinking about how embarrassing that'll be for him when he's older.

I think Cate and Tyler were probably told that it was a possibility that the adoptive parents could pull all contact, but it was also a possibility they could have an active role in Carly's life. That'/ the thing with open adoptions. The birth parents are at the mercy of the adoptive parents.

[AmyFarrahFowler]

8 minutes ago, greatscott91 said:

I don't think Nova is the first kid they've filmed being potty trained. I remember Maci and Kyle trying to get Bintlee to pee on a tree in an earlier season, and I remember thinking about how embarrassing that'll be for him when he's older.

I think Cate and Tyler were probably told that it was a possibility that the adoptive parents could pull all contact, but it was also a possibility they could have an active role in Carly's life. That'/ the thing with open adoptions. The birth parents are at the mercy of the adoptive parents.

As they should be.

[GreatKazu]

8 hours ago, AmyFarrahFowler said:

As they should be.

Right.

Who should be in control of the child? The people who created the child and relinquished that child to be adopted? Or, the two responsible people who planned and prepared to be parents and who actually do the parenting and all that it entails?

[greatscott91]

  17 hours ago, greatscott91 said:

I don't think Nova is the first kid they've filmed being potty trained. I remember Maci and Kyle trying to get Bintlee to pee on a tree in an earlier season, and I remember thinking about how embarrassing that'll be for him when he's older.

I think Cate and Tyler were probably told that it was a possibility that the adoptive parents could pull all contact, but it was also a possibility they could have an active role in Carly's life. That'/ the thing with open adoptions. The birth parents are at the mercy of the adoptive parents.

As they should be.

Oh, I definitely agree. They knew what they were doing, and the whole time this show has been on the air they've had it revolve around that. Now that they can't do as they please with Carly, they're throwing a fit.

[ReadMeLattice]

5 hours ago, greatscott91 said:

Oh, I definitely agree. They knew what they were doing, and the whole time this show has been on the air they've had it revolve around that. Now that they can't do as they please with Carly, they're throwing a fit.

Exactly...it's been a source of conflict from the beginning because they knew exactly what they agreed to. They weren't hoodwinked and they aren't Carly's parents. They have no grounds to sue or even complain. 

Edited November 8, 2016 by Lm2162