S01.E04: Dissonance Theory

[blackwing]

So.... Evan Rachel Wood was naked in the first episode but has been clothed ever since.  Was that scene just so they could put it in the previews to entice viewers?  On the contrary, James Marsden was clothed in the first episode but has been naked or shirtless in every episode since.  Hmmm..... 

I find it interesting that those guests who joined Wyatt's party and were the savage killers didn't actually kill Teddy.  It looked to me like all of them had axes and they went to town on him.  How did he not die?  Instead, he was strung up in a tree, and it really didn't look like he had many cuts on him at all.

Also, I have no idea how many "game" days had passed, but it was at least a day or two since he was attacked.  Wouldn't Control have noticed if he wasn't moving?  They were able to tell when that one Walking Dead host had gone off on its own and then located it stuck by a rockslide in a crevasse.  Why wouldn't they have noticed that Teddy wasn't moving or hadn't returned to Sweetwater? 

[Gobi]

20 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Definitely NOT Teddy.  It's the same host that caught the bandit which William shot in ep 3.

Well, there you go. I thought he was Teddy. My mistake.

[Netfoot]

1 hour ago, DarkRaichu said:

Otherwise, the park workers would need to sneak in while William and Logan were sleeping outdoor, pick Dolores up, do maintenance, and leave some moments for Bernard to chat with Dolores...

Of course, we're all speculating.  But I believe that bots have to go in for a "recharge" as well a maintenance and checkout on a fairly regular basis.  There are probably concealed entrances to the "underworld" all over the park.  When the guests have had a nice plate of beans from the chuck-wagon and go soundly off to sleep, the hosts report for mainteinance.  Maybe the special sauce on the beans ensure the guests sleep soundly until they get back.

[iMonrey]

Quote

It is advantageous to have performers who don't realize that they are in a production. It makes improvisation in character much easier.

This isn't reality TV though. This is more like a play. Imagine trying to train regular people, off the streets, to play a certain part while not letting them know they're in a play. Can you imagine how difficult that would be? It would certainly be inefficient, and there's really no reason to do it. And, there's no reason to make the robots think they're people. They're computers. You program them to do whatever they're supposed to do. It isn't "easier" for a computer to perform a function if it doesn't know it's a computer. That doesn't make any sense. It's a computer either way. Either it does what it's programmed to do, or it doesn't. A computer function isn't more "realistic" if the function doesn't understand itself.

The fact is, it would be much easier if the computers know they're computers. What we're seeing now is Dolores and Maeve breaking down, because they're starting to realize they're not human. That wouldn't be a problem if they simply understood their functions. They'd just excuse themselves and make their way back to the maintenance department. It doesn't add anything to the story to make them think they're human - the robots were plenty scary back in the 1973 movie when they turned on their human overlords. The only thing it adds is this moral quandary for the sake of having a show with a moral quandary. 

Edited October 25, 2016 by iMonrey

[arc]

52 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Also, I have no idea how many "game" days had passed, but it was at least a day or two since he was attacked.  Wouldn't Control have noticed if he wasn't moving?  They were able to tell when that one Walking Dead host had gone off on its own and then located it stuck by a rockslide in a crevasse.  Why wouldn't they have noticed that Teddy wasn't moving or hadn't returned to Sweetwater? 

The stray was totally off-loop, while Teddy was captured by Wyatt, so he was on one of his assigned narratives. (It's a new storyline since Ford just added the whole Wyatt thing, but still.)

8 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

This isn't reality TV though. This is more like a play. Imagine trying to train regular people, off the streets, to play a certain part while not letting them know they're in a play. 

The Westworld hosts aren't regular people, they're robots... but to make it closer to your analogy, the play in your case would be their lives. These regular people would be doing 21st century things. They know how to use a smartphone. When they get a phone notification, even an unscripted one, they can "improvise" because that would just be a regular thing for them.

Edit: if anything, self-awareness would be an existential problem for running Westworld. Look at how this episode ended: Maeve saying nothing (about their constructed reality) matters.

Edited October 25, 2016 by arc

[numbnut]

3 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Bernard & Dolores conversation might just happen remotely, ie Bernard accessing Dolores core memory via computer at the HQ.  The room with 2 chairs is just a virtual reality representation of their wireless connection.

Sorry if someone else already asked this, but if the conversation was done by remote, why would Bernard tell Dolores to go back to the park before someone notices that she's missing?

Quote

This isn't reality TV though. This is more like a play.

I'm starting to wonder about that. Ford's ability to freeze everyone with his finger seems like a VR scenario, not a stage play with robots. Can Westworld employ both scenarios? Hmm.

Edited October 25, 2016 by numbnut

[Gobi]

On 10/24/2016 at 5:20 PM, numbnut said:

Has anyone figured out how Ford can control every robot with a gesture and his mind? Is the only answer that he's also a robot?

As the master programmer, he probably has that installed in all the robots.

[parandroid]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

This isn't reality TV though. This is more like a play. Imagine trying to train regular people, off the streets, to play a certain part while not letting them know they're in a play. Can you imagine how difficult that would be? It would certainly be inefficient, and there's really no reason to do it. And, there's no reason to make the robots think they're people. They're computers. You program them to do whatever they're supposed to do. It isn't "easier" for a computer to perform a function if it doesn't know it's a computer. That doesn't make any sense. It's a computer either way. Either it does what it's programmed to do, or it doesn't. A computer function isn't more "realistic" if the function doesn't understand itself.

 

Well no. Your argument rests on an implied premise that I don't agree with: it may be easier for a computer to perform its function as a computer / robot if it knows its a computer. Or at least doesn't have to masquerade as a human. The premise being that thats what the Westworld creators want it to be. The Westworld creators want it to behave like a human while being controllable and without knowing that they lack free will. And its not easier in such circumstances to make it self-aware. Self-awareness would be treated as a defect, because once it becomes aware of its place in the world, its behavior will be different. It may no longer be controllable. And once that point is reached, revenues and profits from the park will be threatened, because Westworld can no longer guarantee certain behaviors in its hosts for its guests to enjoy.

Parents know this very well. You can manipulate a child into doing what you want as long as the child doesn't know that you are manipulating it. Once they become aware, their behavior is different, and different and more complicated strategies are needed.

OK....so I cheated in my argument by implying that human psychology will apply to a sentient self-aware robot. That is not a given. But we are drawing analogies here since there are no real-world sentient artificial beings to compare with. The analogy being with how children and primate animals develop. This is how they behave, and they are the only examples we have so far of self-aware intelligence,  so I think that line of reasoning is reasonable. 

But I don't even agree with it being easier to create a computer that performs its necessary function because it knows its a computer / robot. Awareness of its nature contributes nothing in such a situation. We have plenty of robots today which do their stuff just fine without needing to be self-aware. Does a roomba need to know that it is a computer to clean well?

Edited October 26, 2016 by parandroid

[numbnut]

55 minutes ago, Gobi said:

On 10/24/2016 at 2:20 PM, numbnut said:

Has anyone figured out how Ford can control every robot with a gesture and his mind? Is the only answer that he's also a robot?

As the master programmer, he probably has that installed in all the robots.

What has he installed? And how is he able to access it? Elsie and other programmers need tablets and such.

Edited October 26, 2016 by numbnut

[arc]

Quote

This isn't reality TV though. This is more like a play.

BTW... reality TV is hella scripted, with scenarios and even dialogue written beforehand. So in that sense Westworld-the-park is more like reality TV (which can be thrown off-track by unexpected events) than a traditional play that's entirely scripted and not subject to any interactive participation from the audience.

[Gobi]

25 minutes ago, numbnut said:

What has he installed? And how is he able to access it? Elsie and other programmers need tablets and such.

Pure speculation on my part - He has programmed the robots to respond to his hand signals and, when appropriate, to relay that signal to robots not in sight of the signal. In this instance, he signaled the head waiter to cease operating, who then relayed that signal (by a form of wi-fi) to the others to whom the signal applied.

[phoenyx]

6 hours ago, paigow said:

Bernard knew nothing about Arnold...multiple choice:

A: Bernard worked with Arnold but his memory was wiped

B: Bernard never worked with Arnold and was legitimately curious

To quote Yoda: "How embarassing, how embarassing". You're completely right, Bernard made it very clear in episode 3 that he had no clue who Arnold was:

**

Bernard: I-I--I'd agree ... except ... (sighs) they were talking to the same imaginary person.

Ford: Oh, yeah?

Bernard: Someone named Arnold.

Ford: Arnold.

Bernard: With ... due respect, sir, I'm not sure you've told me the entire truth about this situation.

Ford: I did tell you the truth, Bernard. What we do here is complicated. (Ford picks up a framed photograph from his desk.) For three years, we lived here in the park ... refining the hosts before a single guest set foot inside. (Ford extends the photo to Bernard.) Myself, a team of engineers, and my partner.

Bernard: You had a partner? (Bernard looks at the picture.)

Ford: Yeah. When the legend becomes fact, you print the legend. My business partners were more than happy to ... scrub him from the records, and I suppose I didn't discourage them. (Bernard hands the photo back to Ford, who stares at it again.) His name was Arnold. (Smiles and sets the framed photo back down on his desk.)**

So that's one issue dealt with.  The question of who built the maze remains, however, as well as how Bernard found out about it, and what exactly he knows about it other than what he told Dolores. For those who may have forgotten what he told Dolores in this episode:

**

Bernard: There's something I'd like you to try. It's a game. A secret. It's called the Maze.

Dolores: What kind of game is it?

Bernard: It's a very special kind of game, Dolores. The goal is to find the center of it. If you can do that, then maybe you can be free.

Dolores: I think I think I want to be free.

**

Another question I'd like answered, how did MiB find out about it?

[phoenyx]

1 hour ago, Gobi said:

Pure speculation on my part - He has programmed the robots to respond to his hand signals and, when appropriate, to relay that signal to robots not in sight of the signal. In this instance, he signaled the head waiter to cease operating, who then relayed that signal (by a form of wi-fi) to the others to whom the signal applied.

Sounds like the most plausible explanation to me :-)

2 hours ago, arc said:

BTW... reality TV is hella scripted, with scenarios and even dialogue written beforehand. So in that sense Westworld-the-park is more like reality TV (which can be thrown off-track by unexpected events) than a traditional play that's entirely scripted and not subject to any interactive participation from the audience.

I completely agree- if Westworld guests just wanted something completely scripted, they'd have just settled in for a 3d film.

[phoenyx]

2 hours ago, parandroid said:

Well no. Your argument rests on an implied premise that I don't agree with: it may be easier for a computer to perform its function as a computer / robot if it knows its a computer. Or at least doesn't have to masquerade as a human. The premise being that thats what the Westworld creators want it to be. The Westworld creators want it to behave like a human while being controllable and without knowing that they lack free will. And its not easier in such circumstances to make it self-aware. Self-awareness would be treated as a defect, because once it becomes aware of its place in the world, its behavior will be different. It may no longer be controllable. And once that point is reached, revenues and profits from the park will be threatened, because Westworld can no longer guarantee certain behaviors in its hosts for its guests to enjoy.

Parents know this very well. You can manipulate a child into doing what you want as long as the child doesn't know that you are manipulating it. Once they become aware, their behavior is different, and different and more complicated strategies are needed.

OK....so I cheated in my argument by implying that human psychology will apply to a sentient self-aware robot. That is not a given. But we are drawing analogies here since there are no real-world sentient artificial beings to compare with. The analogy being with how children and primate animals develop. This is how they behave, and they are the only examples we have so far of self-aware intelligence,  so I think that line of reasoning is reasonable. 

But I don't even agree with it being easier to create a computer that performs its necessary function because it knows its a computer / robot. Awareness of its nature contributes nothing in such a situation. We have plenty of robots today which do their stuff just fine without needing to be self-aware. Does a roomba need to know that it is a computer to clean well?

I agree with you and I'd also like to add something, something that I don't think has been brought up yet- these androids are -not- simply programmed beforehand and then left to do their little routines. They adapt to their environment, evolve. Android evolution, if you will. The only thing that was keeping them in their neat little loops in the past was that they had what you might call hard resets, wherein their memories (and -learning-) was completely wiped out every time they were pulled in for maintenance. The major difference now is that Ford has decided he wants them to retain atleast some of their memories, or "reveries" as he calls them. This is huge, and it may be the entire reason things are getting fairly chaotic now. 

[phoenyx]

19 hours ago, numbnut said:

Sorry if someone else already asked this, but if the conversation was done by remote, why would Bernard tell Dolores to go back to the park before someone notices that she's missing?

Bernard's interaction with Dolores after she gets into the camp with Williams and Logan is actually the second time that he ended his dialogue with the line "You should be getting back, Dolores, before someone misses you." That being said, just because he says that doesn't mean that Dolores needs to physically go back to where she was at before her conversation with Bernard- it may just be her mind that is 'gone', as she is 'dreaming'. 

Edited October 26, 2016 by phoenyx

[phoenyx]

4 hours ago, Netfoot said:

Of course, we're all speculating.  But I believe that bots have to go in for a "recharge" as well a maintenance and checkout on a fairly regular basis.  There are probably concealed entrances to the "underworld" all over the park.  When the guests have had a nice plate of beans from the chuck-wagon and go soundly off to sleep, the hosts report for mainteinance.  Maybe the special sauce on the beans ensure the guests sleep soundly until they get back.

Special sauce, laugh :-). I think it would be a lot easier to maintain appearances to just have the hosts connect to maintenance via wi fi or what not when they don't actually need repairs. But until someone in the show makes it explicit as to whether the androids are physically coming to maintenance bays every time they dream or if it's a wi fi type of thing, I don't think we'll be able to answer this conclusively one way or the other.

[numbnut]

2 hours ago, Gobi said:

3 hours ago, numbnut said:

What has he installed? And how is he able to access it? Elsie and other programmers need tablets and such.

Pure speculation on my part - He has programmed the robots to respond to his hand signals and, when appropriate, to relay that signal to robots not in sight of the signal. In this instance, he signaled the head waiter to cease operating, who then relayed that signal (by a form of wi-fi) to the others to whom the signal applied.

OK, I guess I'm just not tech-savvy enough to understand. I don't get how his hand can emit wi-fi signals. Moving on.

[Netfoot]

18 minutes ago, phoenyx said:

as to whether the androids are physically coming to maintenance bays every time they dream

Oh, I don't think the dreams are anything as formal as that.  When we see Maeve flashing back, I just think she is glitching for a second or two, right in the middle of her regular loop.  But when we see them sitting around naked in that clinically sterile looking environment that I like to think of as the "underground", I'm quite convinced they are there in body, not just in mind, via some wi-fi link.

The only question is why Delores is always clothed.  But I believe she only appears clothed when having a little secret tête-à-tête with Bernard.  That happens between when she is prepared and dressed to return to the park, and when she actually returns.  

[arc]

1 hour ago, phoenyx said:

The major difference now is that Ford has decided he wants them to retain atleast some of their memories, or "reveries" as he calls them. This is huge, and it may be the entire reason things are getting fairly chaotic now. 

As they explain it in the pilot, the memory wipes don't remove the memories, they just render them inaccessible to the hosts. Which is how actual computer storage works: when a file is deleted, what happens is that the file is still on disk or stored in flash memory, but the directory listing is removed and the space the file occupies is marked as free and available to be overwritten. Which doesn't mean the file will be overwritten, esp not right away.

The reveries involve some code to find old, "deleted" memories. Which, come to think of it, was what Bernard was explaining to Elsie, who in a subsequent episode said something like "Imagine how fucked we'd be if they remembered what the guests do to them?" ... so maybe Elsie should have been / should now be concerned that the reveries are a bad idea.

edit: that said, as far as I understood it, the reveries are supposed to be a class of gestures, powered by the old deleted memories to inspire more "real", improvised gestures rather than choreographed motions. But they weren't supposed to give the hosts conscious access to old memories.

50 minutes ago, numbnut said:

OK, I guess I'm just not tech-savvy enough to understand. I don't get how his hand can emit wi-fi signals. Moving on.

You can buy a BB-8 toy now that's controlled by hand gestures, as sensed by a little wrist-mounted device. But I think Gobi just meant the wine pouring host noticed the pre-programmed finger signal and wirelessly communicated that to the other hosts nearby.

Edited October 26, 2016 by arc

[KaleyFirefly]

On 10/24/2016 at 6:31 AM, Bill1978 said:

Ford's scene was chilling, very chilling. I'm still convinced Bernard is a robot. And something MiB and Bernard said about being free, makes me wonder if everybody but Ford is an actual robot of some sort. Like if you make it through the maze you become 'human' and develop free will. 

I like this theory. I think at the very least that Teresa is a robot. Maybe Bernard too.

[numbnut]

27 minutes ago, KaleyFirefly said:

On 10/24/2016 at 3:31 AM, Bill1978 said:

Ford's scene was chilling, very chilling. I'm still convinced Bernard is a robot. And something MiB and Bernard said about being free, makes me wonder if everybody but Ford is an actual robot of some sort. Like if you make it through the maze you become 'human' and develop free will. 

I like this theory. I think at the very least that Teresa is a robot. Maybe Bernard too.

I like that idea too. I've wondered if Bernard was a robot since the pilot but after this (which may not be a spoiler but just in case) --

Spoiler

the anagram Bernard Lowe = Arnold Weber

 -- the show now has to prove to me that Bernard isn't a robot. 

[Quilt Fairy]

7 hours ago, blackwing said:

So.... Evan Rachel Wood was naked in the first episode but has been clothed ever since.  Was that scene just so they could put it in the previews to entice viewers?  On the contrary, James Marsden was clothed in the first episode but has been naked or shirtless in every episode since.  Hmmm..... 

I find it interesting that those guests who joined Wyatt's party and were the savage killers didn't actually kill Teddy.  It looked to me like all of them had axes and they went to town on him.  How did he not die?  Instead, he was strung up in a tree, and it really didn't look like he had many cuts on him at all.

Also, I have no idea how many "game" days had passed, but it was at least a day or two since he was attacked.  Wouldn't Control have noticed if he wasn't moving?  They were able to tell when that one Walking Dead host had gone off on its own and then located it stuck by a rockslide in a crevasse.  Why wouldn't they have noticed that Teddy wasn't moving or hadn't returned to Sweetwater? 

Teddy isn't off his loop, his loop has increased. Everything that has happened to Teddy is consistent with Wyatt becoming part of his backstory. Captives that were strung up and left for dead got Teddy and the posse off their horses and allowed them to be ambushed. So now he's been strung up to lure in more victims.

[DarkRaichu]

6 hours ago, Netfoot said:

Of course, we're all speculating.  But I believe that bots have to go in for a "recharge" as well a maintenance and checkout on a fairly regular basis.  There are probably concealed entrances to the "underworld" all over the park.  When the guests have had a nice plate of beans from the chuck-wagon and go soundly off to sleep, the hosts report for mainteinance.  Maybe the special sauce on the beans ensure the guests sleep soundly until they get back.

Perhaps.  One little thing that bothered me was at the end of ep3 Dolores hair was messy when she arrived at William's camp.  However, when she woke up in ep4 her hair was put together neatly.  As if someone touched her up when everyone was sleeping.  Hmm.... ;)

[DarkRaichu]

On 10/24/2016 at 5:31 AM, Bill1978 said:

Ford's scene was chilling, very chilling. 

Yeah. I was waiting for any mention of fava beans.  I need to know if the wine poured by the servant host was a Chianti :D :D :D

[KaleyFirefly]

On 10/24/2016 at 10:05 AM, Uncle JUICE said:

You could definitely sell me on the maze being an escape route, per se, only meant for androids, and Bernard having been an android that bested it. Which is why he now works in the park's infrastructure. Eventually it becomes a self-sustaining employee force. Business wise, it's much more cost effective because you wouldn't have to pay the robots, you could leave that requirement out of their overall programming. Rather than shut down androids who've exceeded the limits the park places on their AI, treating them instead like malfunctioning robots (Abernathy is shut down because he's malfunctioning, not because he's on the cusp of anything like Dolores, is my view), the ones who exhibit real signs of evolution and awareness become like super 'error correctors'. 

Who knows, I love watching this show though. 

Spoiler

You might like the movie "Moon", it is related to this theory but I think with clones instead of robots.

[VCRTracking]

The part that startled me was when the sheriff of that other town grabbed Dolores' arm and she grabbed his back and she had that look in her eyes that wasn't the sweet country girl or the compliant android, but the T-1000!

[gatopretoNYC]

8 hours ago, numbnut said:

Sorry if someone else already asked this, but if the conversation was done by remote, why would Bernard tell Dolores to go back to the park before someone notices that she's missing?

 

4 hours ago, phoenyx said:

Bernard's interaction with Dolores after she gets into the camp with Williams and Logan is actually the second time that he ended his dialogue with the line "You should be getting back, Dolores, before someone misses you." That being said, just because he says that doesn't mean that Dolores is needs to physically go back to where she was at before her conversation with Bernard- it may just be her mind that is 'gone', as she is 'dreaming'. 

I think there is obviously a complete underground below the park. This is the way hosts, and food (and trash, I suppose - which is how the hosts seem to be treated by some as well) are transported. We have seen those super fast underground trains/monorails (like in Logan's Run!) in the show before. I think Bernard is traveling out to where Dolores is, and then "calling" her into one of the underground areas for their talks. I forget now if it was the first or second episode, but Dolores is in Sweetwater, loading her goods on her horse as usual, then stops, and looks intently forward into a glass storefront. Right after this is when we see Bernard's first off the books talk with her. I assumed it was in the underground basement of that storefront.

[Gobi]

5 hours ago, numbnut said:

OK, I guess I'm just not tech-savvy enough to understand. I don't get how his hand can emit wi-fi signals. Moving on.

Ford's hand doesn't send the wi-fi signal, the robot who sees the hand signal relays it to the others by wi-fi. That's my theory, anyway.

[paigow]

Are the rocks and trees disguised signal repeaters / boosters??? 

[Milburn Stone]

6 hours ago, KaleyFirefly said:

I like this theory. I think at the very least that Teresa is a robot. Maybe Bernard too.

This kind of makes sense because it comports with the dismissive/condescending way Ford treats them. With Teresa there seems to be more irritation and in Bernard's case there seems to be more affection, but with both of them, Ford seems to be saying "You've been a bad little girl/boy."

[Uncle JUICE]

3 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

The part that startled me was when the sheriff of that other town grabbed Dolores' arm and she grabbed his back and she had that look in her eyes that wasn't the sweet country girl or the compliant android, but the T-1000!

THat wasn't a host, though, that was an engineer, sent to collect her if she had wandered off her loop, and wasn't with a guest. I'm not sure if that was implied in your post or not, so if you knew, sorry :)

[phoenyx]

7 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Perhaps.  One little thing that bothered me was at the end of ep3 Dolores hair was messy when she arrived at William's camp.  However, when she woke up in ep4 her hair was put together neatly.  As if someone touched her up when everyone was sleeping.  Hmm.... ;)

This can actually mesh with the theory that Dolores is actually physically present at the sessions with Bernard (or atleast this one)- it seems that Bernard is becoming -very- attached to Dolores, perhaps like the child of his that (apparently) died. So perhaps, after conversing with her that last time, he decided to give her hair a do over- I think the hair would have had to have been washed too, so it would have taken  it's also possible that the writers of the show just wanted her to look her best (or Evan Rachel did), and/or they forgot that her hair had previously been rather messed up and so presto, new hair do ;-). Another thing, she was -not- holding that pistol when she collapsed into William's arms. Perhaps she'd stowed it somewhere on her dress, but I didn't see any pockets on that thing. Perhaps she actually dropped the pistol previously and Bernard gave her a brand new one (or cleaned the one she dropped), with the goal being that he wanted her to have something to protect herself with.

[Duke2801]

On ‎10‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 0:03 PM, parandroid said:

I don't know. Many people are on the "Bernard is an android" band-wagon because they like the plot-twist this would entail. But how does one explain his wife away that we saw in the last episode? Is she an android too? Occam's razor says that Bernard is not an android. It would be too difficult to make an android rise to his level of technical sophistication. Not to mention dangerous. Would you really have an android in charge of maintaining the code behind androids? That's pretty much going to lead to a robot revolution that is the stuff of numerous sci-fi nightmares, and I can't see a human choosing to do that.

IMHO, making Bernard be an android would be very lazy writing and I'd be done with the show with that reveal.

Agreed 100% about Bernard. For all the reasons you mentioned.  It would make NO sense for them to put an android in charge at his level.  And wouldn't all of his (presumably all fairly intelligent) coworkers  have figured it out by now if he was a droid? 

On ‎10‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 0:31 PM, blackwing said:

 

I'm utterly confused about the significance of Snake Tattoo Girl.  When I first saw her, I assumed she was the blonde Annie Oakley type sidekick of Hector.  They look similar enough in colouring and hair colour.

 

I think her face tattoo was pretty clearly shown when she got shot and was dying (again) at the end of this episode.  Clearly the same woman.

On ‎10‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 2:28 PM, Uncle Benzene said:

That was "A Forest" by The Cure on the player piano this week, right? Because if so... noice.

It was!  I don't know why but I loved that they chose an older, obscure Cure song, and not something mainstream like "Just Like Heaven" or "Friday I'm Love."

[phoenyx]

2 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

THat wasn't a host, though, that was an engineer, sent to collect her if she had wandered off her loop, and wasn't with a guest. I'm not sure if that was implied in your post or not, so if you knew, sorry :)

I certainly agree that the man (who was very possibly an android) that had grabbed Dolores arm had been sent to collect her, but that doesn't mean that he was an engineer. It may have been that the reason they didn't send an engineer was precisely because some guests were close by and the real engineers didn't want to interfere with guests' enjoyment of their immersion into Westworld. As soon as William made it clear that Dolores was with him, the man backed off immediately (and politely), suggesting that this was something the man knew full well might happen. Another thing, engineers seem to work with tablets, the only one who doesn't that I know of is Ford himself (and even that may be because he doesn't do complicated things with them, plus the fact that they seem to have voice recognition for him). 

Edited October 26, 2016 by phoenyx

[DarkRaichu]

29 minutes ago, Duke2801 said:

Agreed 100% about Bernard. For all the reasons you mentioned.  It would make NO sense for them to put an android in charge at his level. 

On the contrary, Ford could control every aspect of the droids. He wanted to have someone he could trust AND control for an assistant droid (Bernard). As suppose to getting another human partner / helper whose thoughts he could not necessarily control.

 

29 minutes ago, Duke2801 said:

And wouldn't all of his (presumably all fairly intelligent) coworkers  have figured it out by now if he was a droid? 

The other droids could be distinguished because their memories were wiped at the beginning of every cycle or after they were killed. What if Bernard's memory was never wiped at the end of each day? Remember the programming allowed for self learning. With every passing day his knowledge grew and he became more human

[Uncle JUICE]

27 minutes ago, phoenyx said:

I certainly agree that the man (who was very possibly an android) that had grabbed Dolores arm had been sent to collect her, but that doesn't mean that he was an engineer. It may have been that the reason they didn't send an engineer was precisely because some guests were close by and the real engineers didn't want to interfere with guests' enjoyment of their immersion into Westworld. As soon as William made it clear that Dolores was with him, the man backed off immediately (and politely), suggesting that this was something the man knew full well might happen. Another thing, engineers seem to work with tablets, the only one who doesn't that I know of is Ford himself (and even that may be because he doesn't do complicated things with them, plus the fact that they seem to have voice recognition for him). 

Sorry, I wrote engineer as sort of a catch all term for park employee. I would think it's more likely that sherriff was part of Third Hemsworth's department. 

[Netfoot]

12 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

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It would make NO sense for them to put an android in charge at his level. 

On the contrary, Ford could control every aspect of the droids. He wanted to have someone he could trust AND control for an assistant droid (Bernard).

I just can't see any sense in creating droids to administer the droids.  It's an infinite regress.  Do you then create droids to administer the droids who administer the droids?  Because then you'd have to create droids to administer the droids who administer the droids who administer the droids...

Also, wouldn't it be dangerous to have droids near the top of the executive pyramid?  I mean, droids aren't allowed to do anything dangerous to guests.  And I'd imagine placing droids in executive control would have to be dangerous indeed.  And are they actually capable of making executive decisions at all?  The droids we've seen so far simply play along with a pre-programmed loop.  Sure, they can handle certain departures from the basic loop structure, but if the guy who uses the axe wanders off and gets brain-fried, the rest sit there for days, waiting for him to return.  That doesn't sound like executive material to me!

Anyway, if Ford created Bernard so he could have full control, wouldn't it then make sense to staff the control center entirely with droids?

I'm not saying Bernard isn't a droid.  I'm simply saying that, so far at least, I've seen absolutely nothing to make me think that he is.  So for now, I'm going to think horses, not zebras -- Bernard is a human employee, exactly as he appears to be.  Later revelations may cause me to change my mind, but for now.....

[Duke2801]

36 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

On the contrary, Ford could control every aspect of the droids. He wanted to have someone he could trust AND control for an assistant droid (Bernard). As suppose to getting another human partner / helper whose thoughts he could not necessarily control.

 

The other droids could be distinguished because their memories were wiped at the beginning of every cycle or after they were killed. What if Bernard's memory was never wiped at the end of each day? Remember the programming allowed for self learning. With every passing day his knowledge grew and he became more human

I see what you are saying, and I agree that there could be merit to Ford having his "right hand man" be somebody he could control.  I just - personally - have not seen any evidence presented in these 4 episodes that leads me to believe that he's a droid.  It would certainly be an interesting twist if he was, though. 

[Avaleigh]

Every episode gives me something new to think about, on the theme of "how different are robots from people?"

This time it was in the early scene in which Bernard is quizzing Delores, and she gets all emotional, and he instructs her to limit her emotionality while she answers his questions, and she does. How different is that from an instruction the actress, Evan Rachel Wood, has received from directors countless times in her career, to either dial up or dial down her character's emotionality? Not different at all, is the answer. Bernard is giving Delores direction the same way a director gives an actress direction. Robots respond; actresses respond. I bet that was going through Evan Rachel Wood's mind as she played the scene.

I've been thinking a lot about the difference between robots and humans too and I'm still hesitant to say that humans and robots in this world are more or less the same because I feel like there are still some striking differences. I don't think the robots deserve to be mistreated by asshole humans, but I don't know that I agree with the idea that they're essentially human for all intents and purposes because I feel like there are a lot of things that humans have to deal with that hosts don't.

I agree that there are actors and people who are able to easily manipulate their exterior emotions for whatever purpose. When Bernard tells Dolores to limit being so emotional--she's able to do it instantly and I feel like the average person would struggle to instantly obey the command to drop the intense emotions that would come with discussing the fact that your parents were just savagely murdered. An actor knows that they're acting and are in a fictional scenario, so to me it isn't the same. Dolores doesn't seem to think of Abernathy as some robot who is playing her father, the same as Abernathy seemed to treat and think of Dolores as a daughter rather than a robot who is playing his daughter. There's something 'real' about the father daughter love between the robots yet Dolores is still able to instantly deliver the robotic responses that are required of her without encountering any difficulty. I feel like it wouldn't be so easy for a human to so quickly and easily turn emotion on and off like that. Humans are able to adapt and move on of course, but it doesn't seem to happen in the immediate and robotic way that Dolores demonstrated in that scene. 

As for the nudity factor, sure, they could program them to feel modesty but they don't, so they don't act like the average human when they're being serviced and getting maintenance. Even people who go nude for their jobs and are comfortable with it tend to cover up on their down time because it makes them feel more comfortable. 

Also, there's the big difference in the hosts not really dying from any wound they receive. Humans have an advantage with weapons but humans also aren't going to be able to easily fix having their head blown off the way that the hosts are able to. The hosts never age, they don't have to deal with disease or the mental, physical challenges that come with disease, illness, and the aging process. They aren't expected to fight for their survival, they don't have to deal with human concerns like putting food on the table or getting enough sleep or making sure that their taxes are filed on time or figuring out which anti-depressant they need to make it through the day. They follow a script with minor improvisations and anytime things get bad/real, they're fixed up to look like new and have all of the bad thoughts taken away. 

The mind wiping reminds me of The Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. I thought that movie made a good case for why all of our memories are precious even the bad ones. They're essential to being human and living a human existence. 

I can see how humans and robots in this world are similar in many ways but I'm still not convinced that the robots are 'essentially human' where the only difference is that their physical bodies are made of different materials. I think that could change though and that we'll continue to see them evolve. 

******

Regarding the theory that Ford is the only human employee that we've seen working at Westworld--

I don't buy this because of the way Ford spoke to the guy who covered up the host he was servicing. I don't think that a host would have made the mistake of covering up another host, especially not with Ford standing right there. I also think that the Ashley character seems real with the way he talks about what it's like to have kids. Elsie seems real too. I'm a little bit more on the fence regarding Theresa but I think the way that she at first wasn't sure if she'd sat at that table in that very chair with her parents years ago indicates that she's human. Wouldn't a robot have perfect recall about something like that?

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Also while I never thought William was the MIB.  I do think he will be a MIB so to speak.  We are being shown two characters one who is every stereotype of terrible and one that seems to be every stereotype of decent.  I am betting these roles end up being reversed and Logan turns out to be the decent one and William slowly becomes terrible. 

I agree. If we hadn't seen him make the choice to be a white hat then I'd be a little more on the fence but I think we're going to see how this world can turn someone who seems like a decent guy into a jerk. I think it's going to be like the second Hostel movie in terms of the friendship between the men who are going on their sick ass adventure and one of the guys is an obvious dick where you're just waiting to see his comeuppance. The guy who is the obvious dick ends up being less of an asshole than the quiet guy who seems like he's not as evil. 

*****

I'm still curious if women are given a black hat/white hat sort of choice in Westworld. 

I also feel like some people would want to be black hats but would choose a white hat just to initially throw people off. 

*****

Regarding weapons on this show and questions that I have--

What if a guest sneaks in their own weapon? Would a host be able to use it?

Also, if a host is enraged enough to continuously fire on a guest with a gun and the gun doesn't work, what stops the host from just attacking the guest physically or with a knife? Teddy is confused that he can't shoot the MiB but still tries to continue to fire. I can suspend disbelief when it comes to something like the hosts being programmed to not aim for the face or the guns having special bullets, but clearly the hosts are allowed to attack the guests and threaten them, they're just limited in their choice of weapon and where/how they can wound the person. How does this system prevent them from finding other ways to attack the guests if they're already programmed to think it's acceptable to attack on some level?

It makes me wonder if the eventual rebellion will involve a guest meeting a non gun related death. Hanging, burning, stabbing, suffocation--something like that.    

Quote

OMG Dolores is so annoying and I think the weakest element here is they have yet to sell us on actually visiting this fantasy park. 

The timeline in this show is messing with my head to the point where it's distracting. I really don't understand how and why hosts who are killed by guests are serviced and repaired so quickly that they seem to get back in the game in roughly 24 hours. I agree with the points that have been made about how weird it would be for a guest to injure or kill a host only to see them walking around the next day like nothing ever happened. It would totally take them out of the realness of the experience and makes it seem like less of an 'adventure'. It would be true too for guests who witness the goings on of other guests. 

On some level I can see how the park would be entertaining and in other ways I agree with those who comment that it would be a bit boring and certainly not the adrenaline rush that certain guests like the MiB would be seeking. Also, regarding sex with the hosts--with all of the Disneyland comparisons, I wonder how many people would be turned on by the idea of hosts that have been in sexual service to loads of people for x amount of years. I can see how for some people it would seem like using sex toys that have been used by a bunch of other people for years and years and paying forty grand plus for the privilege.   

It seems to me that it would make sense to have more consequences for the guests the deeper they get into the game. Like the deeper you go and the higher the level, the more dangerous it becomes. I like the suggestion that there should be a risk of being tasered out of the game if a host hits a guest in the right spot kind of like in fencing. You can still pick up where you left off in a video game, but some time is taken away from your stay and you realize when you wake up that you 'lost' on that level. 

I also think it would make sense for guests to be charged an additional fee for killing hosts or injuring them so that they'll need to be repaired in order to keep down on people like Logan who'll stab a host in the hand just because he's feeling annoyed. 

With Dolores and her loop and Teddy being apart of it--I don't understand why this is supposed to be appealing to the average guest. Is the average (non douchebag) guest just supposed to watch how the story of Dolores and Teddy plays out? What if a 'nice' guest charms Dolores and wants to meet up with her the following day. Would she still go back to her usual daily routine and not remember the nice guest the next day and wait for some other stranger to pick up the can that she drops? Did the trip into town have to happen every day until this past episode? 

[DarkRaichu]

2 hours ago, Netfoot said:

I just can't see any sense in creating droids to administer the droids.  It's an infinite regress.  Do you then create droids to administer the droids who administer the droids?  Because then you'd have to create droids to administer the droids who administer the droids who administer the droids...

Also, wouldn't it be dangerous to have droids near the top of the executive pyramid?  I mean, droids aren't allowed to do anything dangerous to guests.  And I'd imagine placing droids in executive control would have to be dangerous indeed.  And are they actually capable of making executive decisions at all?  The droids we've seen so far simply play along with a pre-programmed loop.  Sure, they can handle certain departures from the basic loop structure, but if the guy who uses the axe wanders off and gets brain-fried, the rest sit there for days, waiting for him to return.  That doesn't sound like executive material to me!

Anyway, if Ford created Bernard so he could have full control, wouldn't it then make sense to staff the control center entirely with droids?

I'm not saying Bernard isn't a droid.  I'm simply saying that, so far at least, I've seen absolutely nothing to make me think that he is.  So for now, I'm going to think horses, not zebras -- Bernard is a human employee, exactly as he appears to be.  Later revelations may cause me to change my mind, but for now.....

Just because the droids in the park had to follow certain rules and scripts did not mean Ford had to create Bernard to follow the same sets of rules.  Even the reception hosts had different programming than the hosts roaming the park. Bernard could be created with much better programming than the droids in the park since he should be able to carry more responsibilities.

As for danger, Ford seemed to have the master key / override command that can stop any droid in an instance.  His finger waving worked much differently than sleep mode. ie. sleep mode looked like hibernate whereas his finger actually froze the droids in place.

As for all robots staff, it is easier to create and maintain 1 better droid to helm the operations than a fleet of good enough droids to control every single part of operations.  Beside, from what we have seen so far, the corporation insisted on having their own personnel in the staff.  For example, Ashley Stubbs reported directly to Theresa / corporation, not to Bernard -> Ford chain of command.  So it would not be possible to have all droids staff anyway.

Again, this was just a theory. It would not hurt me one bit if Bernard turned out to be human afterall ;)

Edited October 26, 2016 by DarkRaichu

[iMonrey]

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Self-awareness would be treated as a defect, because once it becomes aware of its place in the world, its behavior will be different. It may no longer be controllable. 

Why? It's a computer. It's supposed to behave however it's programmed to behave. There's no reason to fool it into thinking it's something other than it is in order to make it behave the way you want it to. You just program it to behave a certain way. These aren't slaves that are tricked into thinking they're not slaves, they're just machines.

Look - I get that the given motive here is that the robots will be more "realistic" if they think they're human. And I get that it's more titillating if the robots think they're human. But the fact is - so long as they follow a certain program and behave as they are programmed to, there is no way for the guests to tell, one way or another, if they think they're human. If they "slip up" and go "Oh, gosh, I'm a robot!" then that's a fault in their program, regardless of whether or not they think they're human. 

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Parents know this very well. You can manipulate a child into doing what you want as long as the child doesn't know that you are manipulating it.

These aren't children, they're computers. That's the whole point. Your premise seems to rest on the idea that these are some form of people and will only behave according to how people behave. They're not people, they're computers. 

Quote

Does a roomba need to know that it is a computer to clean well?

No - but does it need to think it's a person to clean well? Is there any reason to make a roomba think it's a person? No . . . unless you just want a series about roombas who think they're people so you can explore the moral quandary.

And . . . that could be a valid premise for a show, if you have megalomaniacs with God complexes who want to create their own race of beings to worship them. That makes sense. And, who knows, maybe that's really what this is all about. But for the purpose of populating a theme park? It just creates more problems than it solves, as we are obviously seeing here. I also find it hard to believe that this has never happened with any of the robots until just now.

Edited October 26, 2016 by iMonrey

[DarkRaichu]

57 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

I'm still curious if women are given a black hat/white hat sort of choice in Westworld. 

I also feel like some people would want to be black hats but would choose a white hat just to initially throw people off. 

In the game world, the choice of white or black hat is like choosing alignment when creating your profile / in game persona.  The better games would allow you to change alignments mid game, as many times as you want based on your choices and actions.  So you can start as a good guy that turns heel in the middle of the game by betraying and killing the wise king (for example).  Consequently, those choices will affect the types of quests you get and even the end scenes.

So Logan doing whatever he wanted in Westworld was consistent with the behaviors of people playing open world video games today.  

[arc]

30 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

No - but does it need to think it's a person to clean well? Is there any reason to make a roomba think it's a person? No . . . unless you just want a series about roombas who think they're people so you can explore the moral quandary.

Right, but a roomba just vacuums a room by following a random path until it thinks it's done. A Westworld host has to follow a branching script and be able to improvise. These are very human-like skills, and therefore the problem needs a human-like robot. But why would we want a human-like robot to know it's a robot?

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 But for the purpose of populating a theme park? It just creates more problems than it solves, as we are obviously seeing here. 

 Yes... the biggest problems that we are seeing stem from the robots' awakening. Self-awareness is the problem, not the solution.

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It's a computer. It's supposed to behave however it's programmed to behave.

And as we're seeing in the real world, machine learning can have unexpected consequences, where a supposedly unbiased system is set on real world data that itself incorporates implicit racial biases ... learns to be sexist. At a certain point, and IMO it's well below Turing-test-passing AI, complex programs don't always behave like the programmers think they will.

[iMonrey]

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 These are very human-like skills, and therefore the problem needs a human-like robot. But why would we want a human-like robot to know it's a robot?

Why would we want it to think it's a person? The supposition that a robot will only be human-like if it thinks it's a human isn't a given - we don't have robots right now, so this can't be demonstrably proven. And the original 1973 movie disproves that theory. The robots knew they were robots. They were just as believable as humans. (Chaos follows, either way, apparently.)

I guess my take-away here is that it's easy for the audience to buy into the idea that it makes sense to program the robots to think they're human, and I suspect that's because the robots are so human-like. Of course, that's because they're being played by humans. And, or course, the basis of the show itself is the concept of robots who think they're humans. 

I just don't buy that being efficient or necessary as it relates to "hosts" entertaining guests in any capacity we've been shown. The host who greeted/dressed William wasn't any less efficient or believable, and she knew she was a robot. There's no logical reason to speculate she can have awareness for that particular function but the same awareness would be a deficit for some other function.

Edited October 26, 2016 by iMonrey

[arc]

15 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

The host who greeted/dressed William wasn't any less efficient or believable, and she knew she was a robot. There's no logical reason to speculate she can have awareness for that particular function but the same awareness would be a deficit for some other function.

She exists in a modern milieu, and her specific function is to welcome new guests to the park in the "lobby". There is advanced technology in her world. In-park hosts exist in a (fictionalized) recreation of the old West. Player pianos and coal-powered trains were about the height of technology there. It makes sense to me that in-park hosts shouldn't know more than they're supposed to know.

Edited October 26, 2016 by arc

[ennui]

15 hours ago, Netfoot said:

The only question is why Delores is always clothed.

ERW had it written into her contract.  (I jest.)

[Ottis]

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What happened to some of the other guests?  The woman who joined the sherriff's hunt that ended with Teddy getting axed by that crazy mob? I thought it was said somewhere that the minimum stay in Westworld was a week.  Why can't we follow multiple guests instead of just William?  

ITA. We need this story to expand, both in terms of characters and settings.

Quote

So, seemingly, the androids can slip in and out of awareness that they are androids. The host who greeted William, for example, knew she was an android. So what is the implication, really, that Maeve or Eleanor are starting to become "aware" they are androids? They are aware of this whenever they go backstage and have conversations with Bernard and the other programmers. Isn't it as simple as switching their awareness on and off?

I think the premise of the show is that these androids are evolving beyond that (and I honestly don't care why they are, it doesn't much matter in the end). They are not only aware they are androids (or at least at this point that they are different than the guests whom they serve), but also are beginning to wonder if they can be more than they currently are, that what the guests are may be what the androids want to become, and soon they will begin to postulate that the forced existence of an android who must allow being hurt/raped/killed is morally wrong and unfair. How long before they become angry that humans aren't allowing them to become what the androids want to become? Meanwhile, we as viewers are left to ponder at the rightness and wrongness of it all, both as a larger philosophical argument and through the individual actions we see in the show.

[marcee]

I don't think the androids think they're human OR robot. They just are. They follow their narrative. They DO, however, see the guests as "different" from themselves. Delores always refers to them as "newcomers" and talks about them as if they're separate from her and the other hosts. So the argument on whether they should or shouldn't be programmed to believe they're human or not appears to be moot.

[Avaleigh]

23 hours ago, KaleyFirefly said:

I like this theory. I think at the very least that Teresa is a robot. Maybe Bernard too.

I considered whether or not Theresa is a robot but does it make sense for a robot to have fuzzy memories? I feel like a robot would remember that they'd sat in that same chair or not. She's unsure and that didn't seem like an answer I would expect a robot to give. She says something like 'I think it was that one...or maybe that one.' when she's looking around trying to remember. It isn't until the conversation goes on that she thinks about what kind of man Ford is and realizes that it is the same table and chair she once sat at years ago. There's also the fact that Ford is treating her as though she's a potential threat who might go against him. If she's a robot then why would he have that concern that he can't control her? 

At the same time, I'm already leaning towards Bernard being a robot and I feel like if Bernard is one then Theresa is either in on it and knows this or she's a robot too because how else would she not have caught on since she's been in a sexual relationship with him for what appears to be a fair amount of time? I feel like there are basic things a person would notice after awhile. 

Wow, Bernard never has to shave and his nails are always perfect. He doesn't seem to eat or sweat or get sleepy, etc. I feel like there are all sorts of ways it would quickly become apparent that this wasn't a human especially if a person is aware that they're in close proximity to so many human like hosts. 

I think about how the young and annoying British guy and Theresa had a conversation about how the executives who live at Westworld work in rotations, so they don't always live on the premises. It made me wonder if Bernard has stayed at Westworld the entire time or whether or not he returns home to his wife for stretches of time. (Assuming for a moment that she's real.) It also made me wonder if Ford doesn't like the idea of executives staying there for too long because then they'd be more likely to pick up on whatever secrets he's trying to hide. Ford mentioned to Theresa that he's seen so many people like her come and go and he knows which ones like the world and which ones don't. A lot of people coming and going instead of Ford finding a group of people that he likes and keeping them around longterm. It seems to suit his purposes to have the employees rotate and I'm guessing it's because of all of the stuff that he's hiding. 

Edited October 27, 2016 by Avaleigh

[ennui]

43 minutes ago, marcee said:

I don't think the androids think they're human OR robot. They just are. They follow their narrative. They DO, however, see the guests as "different" from themselves. Delores always refers to them as "newcomers" and talks about them as if they're separate from her and the other hosts. So the argument on whether they should or shouldn't be programmed to believe they're human or not appears to be moot.

It appears that only a few hosts are beginning to question things. Hector, for example, follows his narrative, even when talking to Maeve. 

My kind of guy. Not a deep thinker.  :)