S12.E01: Keep Calm and Carry On

[bearcatfan]

Good point SueB about the lack of sleep. I can tell you from experience that your mind does not work effectively when you are sleep deprived. I know they routinely go with little sleep but I'm thinking this was longer than even Dean is accustomed.

Also, brass knuckles would make her hits more damaging. If she really thought she could beat Dean in a fair fight, she never would have used them. I don't feel that Dean is a lesser hunter because she got the drop on him. It doesn't prove anything to me except that the BMOL don't have a sense of fairness. You would think the fact that they have an angel on their side might give them pause. They defeated the Darkness. Maybe if they asked nicely they would then find out that God himself wanted the Winchesters around. Instead they came in thinking that they know what's what and that they are superior. That doesn't make them better than Sam and Dean, that makes them assholes.

Or what DittyDotDot said.

[Bessie]

16 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

 

38 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

It seemed pretty clear to me that Dean was unprepared and underestimated her while she wasn't and didn't

But this isn't classified as incompetence in a hunter to you?

Not to speak for D3, but it wasn't to me. Mostly because of where Dean's head is at in this scene. The person he loves most in the world is hurt (he doesn't know how badly) and missing. His long-dead mother has reappeared and a few hours prior he was a suicide bomber. Plus, he was just in a car crash. So, yeah, I can excuse him if his head isn't completely in the game. 

I agree that the writers often take shortcuts when they need the boys to lose a fight. But on this one, I'll give them a pass. I like where the story is going, so I'm feeling generous. ;)

ETA: my response time was slow. 

Edited October 14, 2016 by Bessie

[Myrelle]

He would have taken his gun out if he was still on his feet, IMO. That part was the worst of it to me.

[rue721]

3 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Now onto Sam. I normally think JP is a vwry weak actor. He was good in S1/2 but starting with S3 he became almost robotic. The only time i thought he worked well was during comedy/meta episodes or when he got his impressive bitch face on.

I think that JP is a pretty good actor overall. But I, too, LOVE his impressive bitch face. It really is impressive, isn't it? Always cracks me up.

57 minutes ago, PepperMonkey said:

Unpopular opinion time: I thought they used the wrong version of Mary. This woman would be much younger than pictured here because she was, what, 30? when she died. This actress' version of Mary is late 40s to mid 50s, which would be much closer to her real life age HAD SHE LIVED. Unless you keep aging after you die, so if so, then I guess, okay.

Initially, I thought the same thing. But Samantha Smith really killed it last night! She's completely won me over. It really felt like Mary. And I will say for her being a little older -- she brought a lot of gravitas that young!Mary didn't have. 

Also, they didn't actually explain where she's been, and she didn't remember. So they might still explain why she doesn't look 29. Or they'll just leave it. I mean, she was brought back from the dead after decades of being burnt up ash. If she looks a little worn down for her "age," eh. I can handwave that OK ;)

This is also really shallow/minor, but I actually thought that she and Jensen Ackles did look like they could be related, too. I mean, obviously not mother/son because of the age thing! But something about their bone structure/cheekbones. Jared is kind of the odd one out, though. He must look like some cousin on John's side or something ;)

Oh yeah, and about the question of Mary feeling uncomfortable having this grown man calling her mom -- I do think that she seemed uncomfortable. Not about just that specifically, but about the whole thing of suddenly being 33 years in the future and completely out of her element. She looked pretty sick to her stomach at that Berries & Coffee stand.

I think that it's normal/good that Dean just went with calling her mom -- I can't really imagine it feeling any better to either of them for him to call her "Mary," since that just emphasizes even more how much she's missed. I also didn't get the sense that it even occurred to him not to call her mom. Which is natural imo. He's been referring to her as "mom" all his life.

53 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Why would they assume the T-boning was an attack move instead of a random accident? Plus, it was one person, not a whole attack squad. I'm sure Dean thought they had the upper hand because he had an angel on his side, which turned out he didn't. To me, he was just unprepared for the fight, but that's not incompetence, in my book.

I also didn't find him incompetent. He does draw his gun or knife whenever he's going around blind corners or anything like that (like in the bunker). But he doesn't necessarily pull a weapon on any random chick he gets into a car accident with. Also, his mind was elsewhere. I didn't think it was a big deal. YMMV.

I also didn't think that it was crazy that the BMOL woman could keep up with him in the fight considering that (on top of everything else -- her intel/prep, her training) she was wearing two pairs of brass knuckles. Those things will break bone. There was one point when she hit him (I think it was in the jaw? don't entirely remember) and I winced and had to turn away.

We also have no clue what her story was. For all we know, she's on some supernatural steroids or something. Again, YMMV.

48 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

The problem I have with the BMOL more generally, so far, is that it seems like the show is juxtaposing these uber-competent but sketchy Brits against the country bumpkin Americans who will have to prove their mettle and regroup to overcome an apparently more powerful enemy.

I wonder if they're ubercompetent. I mean, we just have their word on that. They know how to fight, and they do have SOME resources, but it's hard to tell what those resources are or why they need Sam and Dean now. So far, Sam and Dean have at least as many resources as the BMOL do. Toni didn't even take Sam to a BMOL doctor contact, she had to bribe a random country vet to patch him up.

They're also clearly trying a "shock and awe" thing on Sam and Dean, trying to make a big first impression. I wonder if that's to keep Sam and Dean too dazzled to see the ruins (or front!) that BMOL really is? I'm not even convinced that they really are the British Men of Letters, and not just some randos, because they seem to be pushing the Stuffed Shirt angle REALLY hard (too hard imo). But that's probably just the show being unsubtle, not the BMOL suspiciously overselling themselves?

[ZennyKenny]

4 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

So my first thought in that scene was Dean realizing how much Mary loved "Baby" and fighting an internal battle of how not to let his mom drive his car. 

It took until Dean popped his head up and looked really uncomfortable that i realized what was going on. Man did i have a good laugh over that.

 

This was EXACTLY the mental process that I went through! I was like "Uh-oh, Dean might have to give up the keys, is he going to do it? Oh, wait.... OH! Nevermind, wrong train of thought!

[Bessie]

I have believed for quite a while now that Cas was past his expiration date on the show. So I feel compelled to confess that I really enjoyed him in this episode.  The writers incorporated Cas into the story without devising some crazy angel shenanigans B plot. His relief at Dean being alive and his singleminded determination to find Sam were palpable. The scene when they were interrogating the vet and Mary says "hurt him" and Cas jumps to it, while Dean appears a bit flummoxed by it all was excellent.  

[catrox14]

Why would lack of sleep be something that would affect Dean in this fight when he has gone days without sleep for most of his existence?

Am I to believe Dean Fucking Winchester, who has hunted monsters and demons his whole life; who went to hell and back; who was Michael's Chosen Vessel; who was a frakking demon and carried the MoC for two years; who was healed by God from 200000 souls and seemed to be fairly spry after said healing; who literally lives on little sleep is now in this moment he won't think straight because of what would be mild sleep deprivation for him? 

Sorry, but that one doesn't work for me either.

And in this timeline from All In The Family to this fight it's supposedly maybe a couple of days that have passed.  It's not like it's been a week. Even allowing for some sleep deprivation his survival instincts would kick in the moment he realized he was facing the enemy. 

It's hilarious to me that it was written that Mary, who has just been resurrected, had a mini-trauma remembering her death and who was actually knocked unconscious in the same car wreck, is shown to have more wits about her to use the angel blade than an apparently uninjured Dean who can't even respond at his basic instinctual level to use his #1 weapon that he keeps in the back of his jeans.  That is some high level nerfing/propping of Mary.  

[Aeryn13]

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That is some high level nerfing/propping of Mary.  

I believe that was the intent. And these writers are only capable of doing it one way. Mary could never shown to be competent if Dean and Cas were also competent. Since that would require more finesse and thought, either in writing the fight or directing it. It`s much easier to write someone as good at something if you make all the other around them suck spectacularly. In that case, the person in question doesn`t even need to be good, they stand out by default if they don`t suck as badly. 

And that is the extent of what Dabb is capable so this is what we got. It`s just unfortunate than in 9 cases out of 10 stuff like that comes at the expense of my favourite character.

Sam for example was alone in his scenario against the BritMOL so also by default, he was allowed to be still badass. There was noone else there to steal his thunder basically. 

If Dean for some reason was alone in that fight and the outcome was that the chick was to be killed, Dean would be magically allowed to be competent also. Alas, he wasn`t.

[Myrelle]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It's hilarious to me that it was written that Mary, who has just been resurrected, had a mini-trauma remembering her death and who was actually knocked unconscious in the same car wreck, is shown to have more wits about her to use the angel blade than an apparently uninjured Dean who can't even respond at his basic instinctual level to use his #1 weapon that he keeps in the back of his jeans.  That is some high level nerfing/propping of Mary. 

And let's not forget the LOL henchbitch who actually took the weapon away from him just like that. So a double whammy of Mary Sue writing in that one scene. I fully expected this from Dabb, but it still rankles like nothing else in this episode.

Edited October 14, 2016 by Myrelle
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[JunebugWA]

Let me set aside the fact that the British WOL totally took out Dean and Cas, Mary was a hunter. My take on it was her hunting instinct kicked in, plus her son was in danger. Also, as some of you already pointed out, BWOL did not count on Mary so Mary had the element of surprise on her. I think the same "mama bear" instinct kicked in when she told Cas and Dean to "hurt" the vet because he played a role in hurting her other son.

Edited October 14, 2016 by JunebugWA
add-on

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, JunebugWA said:

Let me set aside the fact that the British WOL totally took out Dean and Cas, Mary was a hunter. My take on it was her hunting instinct kicked in, plus her son was in danger. Also, as some of you already pointed out, BWOL did not count on Mary so Mary had the element of surprise on her. I think the same "mama bear" instinct kicked in when she told Cas and Dean to "hurt" the vet because he played a role in hurting her other son.

This just highlights even more the absurd writing of Dean here.  Mary's hunter instincts after literally being dead for 33 years and resurrected mere HOURS ago kick right in but Dean's hunter instincts that he's been using daily for 30+ years disappear when his and Mary's lives are in danger?  Bullshit, Bullshit, Bullshit.

Maybe there is some continuum of hunter skills where only one hunter is allowed to be badass at one time when they are in the same place and time...or something.

Dear Show,

It's really okay to write for two or even three heroes to do badass things  and WIN in the same place at the same time, often side by side!  Arrow does it all the time. It's allowed. I promise. 

Love,

Catrox14

P.S. You guys used to actually do that. You had Dean, Cas, and Sam all fighting together and eventually defeating enemies at the same time..and if one saved the other at least you generally didn't have to dumb down the other one to make it happen.  

Edited October 14, 2016 by catrox14

[Boopsahoy]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Personally, I don't think the scene highlighted how incompetent Dean was, but, as Sam said to Lady Toni, maybe the woman wasn't as as good at her job as she first appeared to be.

The scene didn't bother me at all-especially after I saw the special knuckles. I thought it was very obvious-they glowed and had lettering on them so I knew Dean and Cas were screwed. I thought they also affected Dean cause she hits him on the side of the head with them and it really staggered him. Hey in the end they won the fight thanks to Mary. Although she didn't look too happy that she killed a woman.

[Demented Daisy]

On 10/14/2016 at 4:25 PM, catrox14 said:

You had Dean, Cas, and Sam all fighting together and eventually defeating enemies at the same time

You don't think that TPTB would have had a big ol' mess on their hands if they showed Cas and Dean, side by side, beating down a woman?  This is not Civil War, with Captain America and Bucky in a fight with Iron Man, for crying out loud.

Yes, I found it totally believable that Dean (and Cas, for that matter) were bested in this fight.  

Edited October 18, 2016 by Demented Daisy
Because "on their" and "other" are not the same thing.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

You don't think that TPTB would have had a big ol' mess other hands if they showed Cas and Dean, side by side, beating down a woman? 

She was apparently super-duper-extra-powered so why not? Can`t have it two ways, when she is winning, she can`t be superior super-chick but when her opponents are actually shown to be able to fight, she is suddenly a meek little damsel. The Cap comparism isn`t too far off in that case IMO. 

[Demented Daisy]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

She was apparently super-duper-extra-powered so why not? Can`t have it two ways, when she is winning, she can`t be superior super-chick but when her opponents are actually shown to be able to fight, she is suddenly a meek little damsel. The Cap comparism isn`t too far off in that case IMO. 

I don't think she was super-duper-extra-powered.  I think she was a human, just like Dean, up against another human and an angel.

Those brass knuckles made all the difference, IMO.  (And there is canon for it, in a way.  John Constantine had a similar pair that he used against angels and demons and whatnot.)

[Aeryn13]

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Those brass knuckles made all the difference, IMO.

That`s no different to me than Iron Man`s suit or the super serum that mad Cap and Bucky. Without it, each of them would just be human as well. She had them on so that made her super-duper-powered. And fine, maybe that meant she would win but did it have to look like she took on Noob 1 and Noob 2 who had never been in a fight before? Unless those knuckles had the magic power to suck out any skill or fighting knowledge from Dean and Cas`brain, then I buy the way that scene was staged. Maybe Mary can teach them how to make a fist, throw a punch or block one, at least the basics.  

Edited October 14, 2016 by Aeryn13

[Demented Daisy]

6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

That`s no different to me than Iron Man`s suit or the super serum that mad Cap and Bucky.

Except that all three of them had something.  If Dean had brass knuckles, or armor, or something other than his unwillingness to hit a woman (which we know he has), then I would agree that it was silly for her to beat him.  But he was doubly handicapped against her.

And whatever was etched on the knuckles affected Cas, that's obvious.  He didn't see her as a threat, either, considering he expected to reach out and knock her out.  Hubris is what took her and Cas down.  Maybe Dean, too, but I expect he didn't underestimate her long.  By then, she had already hit him a couple of times.  He's lucky she didn't break his jaw or cheekbone.

[Aeryn13]

I guess in the end it`s a personal preference. I just hated that scene so much, it destroyed a lot of the episode for me. IF Dean had had another scene where he got to be a badass (or in general more of those than not), fine, but none and only this? It`s a dealbreaker. And there was just too little else to tide it over.      

[catrox14]

44 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

You don't think that TPTB would have had a big ol' mess other hands if they showed Cas and Dean, side by side, beating down a woman?  This is not Civil War, with Captain America and Bucky in a fight with Iron Man, for crying out loud.

Yes, I found it totally believable that Dean (and Cas, for that matter) were bested in this fight.  

We aren't talking about some random untrained human woman here who has no skills. 

She self-identified as a woman of letters who was part of the kidnapping plot and baited Dean. She landed the first blow with magical brass knuckles. That put her on a level playing field.  Her and Lady CanGoScrewHerself were torturing a tied up Sam together. They are equal enemies. Why wouldn't the boys go full on to defeat them?  

This is a rough and tumble world.  If she thought she could take them on without magical brass knuckles, she would have lost and Cas would have just put her to sleep with his forehead touchy thing. 

She also got Dean's gun and was going to EXECUTE Dean if Mary didn't stab her with the angel blade.   At that point, gloves are off.

Edited October 14, 2016 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

We aren't talking about some random untrained human woman here who has no skills. 

She self-identified as a woman of letters who was part of the kidnapping plot and baited Dean. She landed the first blow with magical brass knuckles. That put her on a level playing field.  Her and Lady CanGoScrewHerself were torturing a tied up Sam together. They are equal enemies. Why wouldn't the boys go full on to defeat them?

They did... eventually.  It was too late by then, though.

Honestly, if Dean and Cas beat that woman down, do you really think that fans would be on social media, talking about how awesome the fight was?

Or would they be tweeting about two men beating up a woman?

[DittyDotDot]

So I rewatched it, can't remember the last time I had the urge to rewatch one so quickly not to mention actually doing it. Anyway, I wanted to give another kudos to Phil Scriggia on the directing. The scene of Mary and Dean sitting on that park bench was really well shot. The way he positioned the camera to make Dean look bigger than life was very effective for me. Really kinda set me more in Mary's POV. Here's her little boy all grown up and it's really strange. Plus, it was lit so beautifully. 

And, there were no real sit 'n chats that I can remember. Pretty good all around, in my book.

Edited October 14, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[ZennyKenny]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I guess in the end it`s a personal preference. I just hated that scene so much, it destroyed a lot of the episode for me. IF Dean had had another scene where he got to be a badass (or in general more of those than not), fine, but none and only this? It`s a dealbreaker. And there was just too little else to tide it over.      

That's the thing, isn't it? We'll probably get that next week. But because we only got what we did, it feels so unsatisfying. The way Supernatural story arcs are set up, imo they REALLY need to have 2-hour season premieres.

[Ria]

Well aren't these British ladies special. I'm bored with them already. Bringing in new characters that are smarter/stronger/have special abilities beyond the established heroes has always been one of my least favorite plot devices (think Billy on Charmed). 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Honestly, if Dean and Cas beat that woman down, do you really think that fans would be on social media, talking about how awesome the fight was?

Is this fight considered awesome? I guess in a "haha, those two losers had their asses handed to them so easily" way but that only works for me if I hate the character in question and want to see them humiliated like this.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

They did... eventually.  It was too late by then, though.

Honestly, if Dean and Cas beat that woman down, do you really think that fans would be on social media, talking about how awesome the fight was?

Or would they be tweeting about two men beating up a woman?

No, I don't think there would have been that discussion because the context of the fight matters

Edited October 14, 2016 by catrox14

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Why would lack of sleep be something that would affect Dean in this fight when he has gone days without sleep for most of his existence?

Am I to believe Dean Fucking Winchester, who has hunted monsters and demons his whole life; who went to hell and back; who was Michael's Chosen Vessel; who was a frakking demon and carried the MoC for two years; who was healed by God from 200000 souls and seemed to be fairly spry after said healing; who literally lives on little sleep is now in this moment he won't think straight because of what would be mild sleep deprivation for him? 

 

You don't have to believe it.  I can.  Adrenaline is not unlimited, and when it runs out (from, oh, days of worrying about the world ending, then frantically worrying about your brother and best friend, the shock of having your long-dead mom show up, surviving a near-suicide and saving the world, driving however far from wherever you were dumped and then back again, then get in a car crash and having to go one-on-one with a supercharged, *NOT TIRED* badass female) , sometimes you get tired/make bad moves.  It happens to the best of us, especially as you get older.  (Would I have preferred some better moves from Dean? Hell, yeah.  Do I think this fight makes him somehow weak or not badass?  Hell no.)

Personally, I like my heroes human, not super-.  And humans (even DFW) make mistakes, and get tired.  YMMV.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

And, there were no real sit 'n chats that I can remember. Pretty good all around, in my book.

I thought the entire Dean and Mary was an extended sit and chat...it was just at the beginning instead of the end.

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I thought the entire Dean and Mary was an extended sit and chat...it was just at the beginning instead of the end.

I said "real" sit 'n chats, as in them just statically sitting around a room barfing pointless exposition in the most boring possible way. Just because they're sitting does not make it a sit 'n chat in my book.

[companionenvy]

I don't need Sam and Dean to be infallible. Frankly, they could fall to vamp extra number six, if the vamp got in a lucky hit, or caught them unawares, and it wouldn't be implausible (not that it would be narratively satisfying). Similarly, I don't at all mind Mary getting the drop on Dean immediately post-resurrection, because he was absolutely shocked and, obviously, not looking at Mary as a threat at all, while Mary was in full fight or flight mode.

But so far, the BMOL have 

-Kidnapped Sam, despite having sent only one woman to do the job (even thinking she would have both Winchesters to deal with)

-Bested both Dean AND Cas in a fight

-Claimed to have become such effective hunters, there hasn't been a supernatural death in their domain in fifty years.

Now, I fully believe that this latter point will wind up being deconstructed, and I'm sure the show is going to let Sam and Dean demonstrate their superior competence in multiple ways. But as it is, this isn't a matter of getting surprised or bested in one fight. This is the show setting up the BMOL as a more formidable adversary than they by rights should be by making them repeatedly get the upper hand against trained fighters who have repeatedly taken on people with advantages more profound than magic brass knuckles.

Not episode destroying, for me, but still annoying. 

Edited October 14, 2016 by companionenvy

[Wynne88]

I personally liked the way they had Mary win that fight.  It had nothing to do with any super fighting skills, or toughness, or even cleverness - she just happened to wake up with the woman's back to her and an angel blade within reach.  That didn't make her a better fighter than Dean or Castiel, just a luckier one.  I would've had a problem if Mary had beaten her on a level playing field when Dean couldn't.  

[pixelcat]

My +/- for the episode (caveats being I have only watched it once, and I have yet to read any comments on this thread.  I plan to rewatch this weekend and read through everything then!):

+ Like the new title card.  I figured it would have the Aquarian star, and it's much better than last year (although the bar was set pretty darn low)
+ Mary not remembering anything that happened from the time she died.  Way to skirt around the issue, show. 1/2+ for Dean not only remembering what happened, but mentioning what happened with "Home" and both time trips on screen.
+ Dean telling her how John died, without bringing up YED or demons of any sort.  Better to avoid that conversation for as long as possible (but I do want to see this addressed, on screen, at some point.  Show, you brought her back, now give me some payoff)
+ Learning all sorts of new facts about John & Mary's relationship, condensed version.  1/2+ for showing that John wasn't always an ass, but actually spent time, sat the boys down, and told them about their mom.
- Dean not having any urgency in getting back to Sam, especially if he wasn't answering the phone.  They must've sat in the park for hours, if you assume it's about 2am when he first finds Mary, and later they're on the bench and it's daylight.  Talk on the way, in the car!
+ Stopping to get Mary some actual clothes, and not making her try to wear Sam or Dean's stuff.  1/2+ for Mary commenting that she's finally out of that nightgown (made me laugh)
-- Castiel not recognizing Mary (I know this was brought up a bit in the spoilers thread).  Instead of asking "Who are you?", a more appropriate response would've been, "You should not be here."  He saw Eve as Mary, Dean's got pics all over his room, I don't buy it.  At all.  I also think he should've stopped walking towards her as soon as she told him to so he didn't appear as threatening.
+/- Minus for Mary calling the car "sweetheart" (she didn't seem that thrilled with it when he first brought it over), plus for her look when she was staring at the back seat and that the affection for the car had nothing to do with using the car for hunting.  Sam & Piper in the back seat is one thing, but Mom & Dad???  (Take away one gold star from me for not getting it until 5 minutes later) 
- Plot contrivance with Castiel seeing the vet van.  What on earth makes him decide that's who they need to follow?  He has no idea Sam was shot and would need medical attention, nor that they would seek it in that town.
+/- Minus for Dean and Castiel getting the crap kicked out of them by magic knuckles lady (remember when Cas was superbadass, I miss that).  Plus for Mary sneaking up behind her and getting all stabby.  Not the first time the Winchesters have been saved by someone else, Donna took off hippie vamp's head by doing the exact same thing.  Avoided the "Mary, Awesome Hunter" issue (for now).
- That little branch is going to hide the van?  Really?
-- That's what the MoL want to know?  How he saved the sun?  What if he had no idea?  Why does she even assume that Sam would know?  And they want the Hunter Network Org Chart?  If I was Sam, I would've said, "Rufus Turner, he's the boss.  Bobby Singer is second in command.  Jo & Ellen Harvelle, Martin Creaser, Annie, Rudy all work under them.  Oh wait, they're all dead."  Just to piss her off.
+ Reminder of Sam having a high pain tolerance (The Born-Again Identity).  But his poor foot!  1/2+ for not burning off the anti-possession tattoo, getting him possessed by a demon, and/or injecting him with demon blood (yet).
+ Remembering Jessica!
++ Badass Sam with the plan to fake suicide.  Almost worked too, if he'd been able to walk he would've kicked the crap out of her.
-- MUSIC.  Not only the songs, but the score as well.  It seemed too loud, and too distracting, which is sad because 90% of the time I love the score of the show.  It felt like all new music to me as well, and really threw me out of the story.  I wanted more hints of themes we've heard before.
--- PACING.  I thought I was watching three episodes crammed into one.  Now I know what all the people who complain about "The Born-Again Identity" feel.  The "Crowley searching for Lucifer" should've been delayed at least one episode or two, and have a good segue into it, like Dean & Sam recounting the apocalypse to Mom ending with "Lucifer was shoved back in the cage" (or that he escaped and the Darkness got rid of him, but we don't know if he's dead), then show Crowley looking for him.  Not only that, but the scenes between the storylines jumped way too quickly.  I barely got invested in one then yanked out of it into another.  I went back to watch some of S10's opener, when they were separated and Sam was searching, and each story was given space to grow before switching; it didn't feel nearly so rushed.  I really wanted that here, but it felt like that TPTB were trying to show too much, too quickly, just to move the story along.

Overall, not bad.  Good start to the season, and I'm curious to find out how this plays out next week!

[Demented Daisy]

46 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

 

Quote

Honestly, if Dean and Cas beat that woman down, do you really think that fans would be on social media, talking about how awesome the fight was?

Is this fight considered awesome?

No, I never said the fight was awesome, nor did I imply that people were saying it was.

 

46 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

No, I don't think there would have been that discussion because the context of the fight matters

Not in the current knee-jerk social media world.  Twitter is not known for its thoughtful, meaningful discussion.  Not in 140 characters or less.

[catrox14]

Just now, ahrtee said:

Personally, I like my heroes human, not super-.  And humans (even DFW) make mistakes, and get tired.  YMMV.

I like my heroes to be heroes. And not nerfed for the sake of character propping. It's crap writing, IMO.

To your point about Dean's theoretical mental and physical exhaustion. The timeline for me doesn't support that.

Dean at most seemed a little weary. But he's hunted in weary mode before. He seemed to be pass the initial shock of Mary once they got back to the bunker. He went straight back to alert the moment he saw the blood and sigil and had his wits about enough take that gun from his pants, search for Sam and stop Mary from shooting Cas or Cas doing his forehead thing to her and thought to check the security cameras.(that's a new thing ). 

Once they left the bunker right awayt to track down the lead on the car. And stopped for coffee outside the vet's office. He was shown drinking said coffee and Dean doesn't drink decaf.  Whilst having said coffee they see the vet drive by and took off immediately to chase after him.  Dean was pretty amped up and sneaked up and put his gun to his vet's back. How long did they talk to the Vet 10-15 minutes? Half hour maybe?  He was way amped when he called Lady CanDieNow and gave her his Taken spiel. They took off from the vet's like bats out of Hell and were moving a pretty fast clip when they were rammed by Ms Asshat of Letters. 

Dean didn't seem to hit his head or anything that I could see.  He seemed mostly alert if a little shook up when he saw Mary injured and asked Cas to look after her.  He got out of the car immediately, wasn't even that slow to get out of the car. He wasn't particularly stumbling around dazed and he checked the car and heard his name and wheeled around and saw her.  Even in his face to face posturing he didn't look like he was lacking his brain function.  He just forgot he had his gun until after she punched him.  So much contrivance.

How simple if they just would have had Dean put the gun in the glove box, because he has been shown to do that on occasion.

[DittyDotDot]

39 minutes ago, pixelcat said:

Plot contrivance with Castiel seeing the vet van.  What on earth makes him decide that's who they need to follow?  He has no idea Sam was shot and would need medical attention, nor that they would seek it in that town.

Actually, this wasn't just a whim of Cass's. They knew about the veterinarian because Cass had head-butted the guy who drove Lady Toni to the vet and got him to tell them about the guy. I think that's the whole reason they were stopped at the Berry and Coffee stand, in the first place. They were on the lookout for the guy.

39 minutes ago, pixelcat said:

PACING.  I thought I was watching three episodes crammed into one.  Now I know what all the people who complain about "The Born-Again Identity" feel.  The "Crowley searching for Lucifer" should've been delayed at least one episode or two, and have a good segue into it, like Dean & Sam recounting the apocalypse to Mom ending with "Lucifer was shoved back in the cage" (or that he escaped and the Darkness got rid of him, but we don't know if he's dead), then show Crowley looking for him.  Not only that, but the scenes between the storylines jumped way too quickly.  I barely got invested in one then yanked out of it into another.  I went back to watch some of S10's opener, when they were separated and Sam was searching, and each story was given space to grow before switching; it didn't feel nearly so rushed.  I really wanted that here, but it felt like that TPTB were trying to show too much, too quickly, just to move the story along.

This is a very good point. It didn't bother me much, but they could've easily held off on what Crowley was up to for at least an episode and given a bit more breathing room to some of the story points. 

39 minutes ago, pixelcat said:

That's what the MoL want to know?  How he saved the sun?  What if he had no idea?  Why does she even assume that Sam would know?  And they want the Hunter Network Org Chart?  If I was Sam, I would've said, "Rufus Turner, he's the boss.  Bobby Singer is second in command.  Jo & Ellen Harvelle, Martin Creaser, Annie, Rudy all work under them.  Oh wait, they're all dead."  Just to piss her off.

Heh, I was thinking something similar, only instead have him say "There isn't a Network Organizational Chart. Just a bunch of yahoos whose families got killed and they decided to step up and try and help some other people while you were sitting comfortably in your safe little cocoon, so screw you, lady." ;)

30 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I like my heroes to be heroes. And not nerfed for the sake of character propping. 

So a hero is only heroic if they win every fight and no one else can be their equal? Interesting, not really how I prefer my heroes, but to each his own.

Edited October 14, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[ahrtee]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I like my heroes to be heroes. And not nerfed for the sake of character propping. It's crap writing, IMO.

To your point about Dean's theoretical mental and physical exhaustion. The timeline for me doesn't support that.

Dean at most seemed a little weary. But he's hunted in weary mode before. He seemed to be pass the initial shock of Mary once they got back to the bunker. He went straight back to alert the moment he saw the blood and sigil and had his wits about enough take that gun from his pants, search for Sam and stop Mary from shooting Cas or Cas doing his forehead thing to her and thought to check the security cameras.(that's a new thing ). 

Once they left the bunker right awayt to track down the lead on the car. And stopped for coffee outside the vet's office. He was shown drinking said coffee and Dean doesn't drink decaf.  Whilst having said coffee they see the vet drive by and took off immediately to chase after him.  Dean was pretty amped up and sneaked up and put his gun to his vet's back. How long did they talk to the Vet 10-15 minutes? Half hour maybe?  He was way amped when he called Lady CanDieNow and gave her his Taken spiel. They took off from the vet's like bats out of Hell and were moving a pretty fast clip when they were rammed by Ms Asshat of Letters. 

Dean didn't seem to hit his head or anything that I could see.  He seemed mostly alert if a little shook up when he saw Mary injured and asked Cas to look after her.  He got out of the car immediately, wasn't even that slow to get out of the car. He wasn't particularly stumbling around dazed and he checked the car and heard his name and wheeled around and saw her.  Even in his face to face posturing he didn't look like he was lacking his brain function.  He just forgot he had his gun until after she punched him.  So much contrivance.

How simple if they just would have had Dean put the gun in the glove box, because he has been shown to do that on occasion.

If you're trying to pin down a Supernatural timeline, good luck!  Since I don't remember seeing anyone actually resting/sleeping (unconscious doesn't count) between 11.20 and 12.1, I have no clue how many days they actually went through; and that's not counting all the driving around and emotional drain.  So AFAIK, there's no accurate way to judge what Dean was going through.  All interpretations are equally valid.

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

So a hero is only heroic if they win every fight and no one else can be their equal? Interesting, not really how I prefer my heroes, but to each his own.

Thanks, DDD!  I prefer my heroes flawed and fighting through, whether or not they win.  

[Hiveminder]

This is that first time I've watched a Supernatural episode in years. The only reason I watched it was because I happened to see the first few minutes, and I've always liked Dean's interactions with Mary. 

I didn't mind Mary being the one to kill whatever her name was. It's not like she actually fought her. The woman didn't seem aware that Mary was even in the car, and then Mary stabbed her in the back. 

I hope they do something about Mary's hair soon. They can't do anything about the actress having aged, but that wig makes it worse. At least, I think it's a wig. There's some weird bang action going on. 

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

So a hero is only heroic if they win every fight and no one else can be their equal? Interesting, not really how I prefer my heroes, but to each his own.

 

? I'm not saying that at all. Not sure why that's your conclusion.

I'm fine with heroes losing a battle as long as they don't make the hero stupid or OOC with no explanation to accomplish that loss especially when it's just to prop another character. 

So, in this situation they didn't make Cas stupid by not having him to do his first move of finger smiting. He tried but she blocked him and then clocked him with the sigilized  brass knuckles. I could accept that because sigils.  He still fought off the effects of the sigils to some degree and gave a little back to her.

But with Dean, he did not do the thing he would 100% do first, and it was as if it didn't even OCCUR to him to do it until he was already at a disadvantage.  That is not something I find in character for Dean at all thus I do not find that a good way to beat the hero. 

[MysteryGuest]

I haven't re-watched yet, but I have had some time to think about the episode.  I still liked a great deal about it, especially the Dean and Mary scenes.  They just completely worked and were very satisfying.

Sam being tortured just made no sense to me.  Why exactly were they torturing him?  And I know that he was shot in the leg, but how did Miss Priss get him in the car in the first place?  Did she have people waiting outside the bunker to help her?  I don't see Sam just going quietly with her, even with a gun pointed on him.  Especially a Sam who thinks his brother is dead.  He overpowered her with a shot knee, a burned foot, and hallucinogenic drugs in his system, so I would think he'd have been able to wrestle the gun away from her back at the bunker.  Oh well...

I didn't much care for the fight with Cas and Dean, but I'm going with the theory that those knuckles held more power than we know.  It looks like they show up again next episode, so maybe we'll get a better explanation.  I have no issues with Mary getting the kill, since as was pointed out above, she didn't do anything different than plenty of non-hunter characters have done in the past.  She just happened to be in the right place at the right time with the element of surprise on her side.

I am glad that the writers addressed our concerns about Mary at the very beginning.  You'd swear they read these boards sometimes!

[catrox14]

6 hours ago, Commando Cody said:

I just remembered the scene with castiel pushing the van in background. The way they directed it was hilarious. 

I kept waiting to see them wipe their fingerprints off the SUV.  And they never did! Come on, Dean! You know better. You've wiped your prints off things before! Bah.

[rue721]

17 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Sam being tortured just made no sense to me.  Why exactly were they torturing him?

My current theory is that they're trying to distract him (and Dean). If M'Lady drags Sam and Dean on a torture-filled wild goose chase, then maybe "the Old Men" can do what they want in the US without the Winchesters getting in the way. (In this theory, the torture and blood trails and all that are to keep Sam and Dean motivated to take the wild goose chase seriously).

Edited October 15, 2016 by rue721

[mertensia]

Dean losing a fight to a spell-wielding badass is hardly the wimpifying of Dean and I can't imagine why it would be. The woman was a professional soldier, so to speak. 

[Ninamags]

I keep thinking about the questions they were asking Sam about.

There is no hierarchy as far as hunters go.

Theres no special meeting place for hunters to congregate.

They really don't know about any other hunters.  If they meet some while on a hunt chances are that's the first they know of them. 

Couldn't Sam just say so? 

[Goldmoon]

A very unpopular opinion:  Dean and Mary looking into the back seat of the Impala struck me differently.  Mary (as youthfully incarnated) is supposedly in the age range of someone that Dean would find "hot," and I thought for a moment he had forgotten she was his mom.  I thought that look was more like he was interested in hitting that, then remembered who she was. Watch it again before you throw rotten peaches at me, please.  I did also think that Dean was afraid she would want to drive. That was certainly Impala porn though, no matter what you thought the significance of that look was.

The angel possessions for Lucifer's part of the story threw me right out of the narrative.  We already know if a body isn't strong enough to host an angel, it explodes.  We know that a human has to agree to host the angel. The burns we saw on all of them, including the fourth one, who presumably carried Luci for a while, were the burns from EXTERNAL angel grace, the same as the grace that Gadreel used to kill Kevin.  So are we to understand that only the unnamed son would accept Lucifer, before or after Luci burned/killed his family with externally applied angel grace, then for reasons unknown, Luci left the son and hopped into someone else who gave permission to host on the road, and killed the transporting son with external angel grace as he departed?  Have the showrunners forgotten that this is how angel grace works? 

With all the talk of dumbing down Dean for the takedown by the UberWOL, I felt the same about Sam.  Why didn't he check Lady Milady for weapons or tie her hands or something after he "strangled" her unconscious?  I wish he had snapped her neck. I know the boys try to safeguard human life, but the first four things this bitch did were 1) invade the bunker, 2) expel and angel, 3) shoot Sam and 4) kidnap Sam.  Then she sent butch-gal to kill Dean and Cas.  This is NOT someone who wants to talk about an alliance.  I know Sam doesn't know about Dean and Cas yet, but when do they stop protecting the bad humans?

I would like to weigh in on all the variations of Lady GetTheFuckOffMyScreen I am seeing here. I love the names as much as I hate the character!  Unfortunately, showrunners commit to their ideas and if they want Lady DieAlready on screen all year, then she will stay, no matter how unwelcome to the rest of us.

Lastly, I have worried that having Mary W show up would be stomach-churning awfulness.  This first episode wasn't bad.  So far. I hope they don't overuse her, and get rid of her soon.

[Commando Cody]

That is a good point about Lucifer possessing bodies. It took days before Nick agreed to it. Now he is going through bodies like candy. Whole families are saying yes to Lucifer?

My thought when Mary was looking at the car was she was going to want to drive it. 

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Ninamags said:

I keep thinking about the questions they were asking Sam about.

There is no hierarchy as far as hunters go.

Theres no special meeting place for hunters to congregate.

They really don't know about any other hunters.  If they meet some while on a hunt chances are that's the first they know of them. 

Couldn't Sam just say so? 

Well that would be logical.  But he does know they name of a few hunters. Maybe he just doesn't want to risk blurting out a few names? 

 

7 minutes ago, Goldmoon said:

A very unpopular opinion:  Dean and Mary looking into the back seat of the Impala struck me differently.  Mary (as youthfully incarnated) is supposedly in the age range of someone that Dean would find "hot," and I thought for a moment he had forgotten she was his mom.  I thought that look was more like he was interested in hitting that, then remembered who she was. Watch it again before you throw rotten peaches at me, please.  I did also think that Dean was afraid she would want to drive. That was certainly Impala porn though, no matter what you thought the significance of that look was.

I can see a reading of Dean recollecting himself getting laid in the Impala at the same time Mary was herself recollecting getting laid and then he's like "OH CRAP. My mom and I both had sex in this car"...but I don't see Dean considering THIS version of Mary as someone he would hit, mostly because this is the one that he remembers from being 4, from all his pictures. He mentioned how hot 19 year old Mary  was in s3 and then reminded himself he would go to Hell...again.  So I don't think he's having an Oedipal moment or anything.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

My thought when Mary was looking at the car was she was going to want to drive it

I think at first I think Dean was like "Oh shit. I don't want to fight with my Mom about driving the car".  But I didn't really care for the "Hi Sweetheart, remember me" thing only because I never had the sense that Mary liked that car in the least. But maybe now her nostalgia makes her feel differently.

[ZennyKenny]

3 hours ago, pixelcat said:

magic knuckles lady

I ALMOST spit out my drink laughing at that. I'm still laughing as I type this.

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But I didn't really care for the "Hi Sweetheart, remember me" thing only because I never had the sense that Mary liked that car in the least. But maybe now her nostalgia makes her feel differently.

IIRC, the only time we heard Mary say anything about the car was in "In the Beginning" when she said "what happened to the van?"  She didn't seem to dislike it, just was puzzled because they'd agreed on the VW.  But she had nearly 10 years with the car (and John, and the kids, as well as her obviously happy memories of the backseat) so I think we can assume she had many good memories of the car that we never saw.  

[MysteryGuest]

As for the car scene, I just thought Mary was remembering times spent in the car...specifically in the backseat with John.  Not necessarily that Dean was conceived that way, just that she and John as young lovers found the back seat of the Impala to be just as accommodating as Sam and Dean have through the years.  Even though Dean loves driving his father's car, I'm not sure he ever had that specific thought cross his mind before.  It was pretty funny to see.

[catrox14]

Just now, ahrtee said:

IIRC, the only time we heard Mary say anything about the car was in "In the Beginning" when she said "what happened to the van?"  She didn't seem to dislike it, just was puzzled because they'd agreed on the VW.  But she had nearly 10 years with the car (and John, and the kids, as well as her obviously happy memories of the backseat) so I think we can assume she had many good memories of the car that we never saw.  

Well, I'm just speaking myself. I'm not assuming anything.  For some reason, I had a recollection of John or Dean saying Mary hated the car, but I could be confusing it with something else  and I'm not confusing it with the flashback episode. Maybe I read in a fanfic at some point. Weird.