Kate: Chrissy Metz

[HeySandyStrange]

Eh, in my limited experience, those people who grew old waiting for their prince/princess to come usually are the usually the type of people who thought they were all that when they were young, even if they were just barely average/above average. Then they start to age and have to get the clue that the rest of us already got: that life isn't a fairy tale and there are more important things then finding the fantasy.

For the record, while I get that Kate, body-wise, is well below average as for as attractiveness, she does have a very pretty face. I'd imagine if she ever loses enough weight it would come out even more.

[biakbiak]

Also, while looks can sometimes matter. I have seldom had friends who think the same people are attractive, including different body types.

Edited December 11, 2016 by biakbiak

[chocolatine]

3 hours ago, MsJamieDornan said:

8 hours ago, random chance said:

In all fairness she's going to be dieting for years, so it wasn't really that small of a hurdle.

Could be decades, I'm serious.

Technically, if she wants to not only lose the weight but also keep it off, she's going to have to change her eating habits permanently. And since it's going to take a long time to lose the weight, and forever to keep it off, she needs to learn (a) a healthier and more realistic balance of foods she allows herself to eat (i.e. not just kale and chia seeds for the rest of her life), and (b) how to deal with tempting foods, and with people who eat those foods around her. It's unrealistic (and, IMO, controlling) to expect her boyfriend to share her eating habits. I actually thought Toby suggested a good compromise when he offered to forego unhealthy foods whenever they eat together, but she sabotaged that by taunting him into eating the biggest dessert on the menu in front of her, and then blamed him when she couldn't deal with it.

She needs to sort out her food issues within herself before she can successfully date someone else.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

A lot of people believe that.  I believe there are a lot of people out there who are absolutely convinced they can become the next American Idol or make the NBA or become a self-made billionaire.  But they don't.  Because those things are extremely difficult and it takes a very rare combination of talent and luck to achieve them.  And you say "we can't prove or disprove" something that I think is certainly very testable.  One could quibble about "well, they didn't really set their mind to it", but that's getting into the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.  I have a friend who takes running very seriously.  He applies all the scientific training techniques known to mankind to his regimen, and he has for years wanted to run a sub-three-hour marathon.  I mean, desperately wanted to do this.  He came close a couple years ago, in the New York Marathon, where he finished in just over 3:03.  Other than that, though, he hasn't gotten under 3:10 in any of the many marathons he's run in.  And he is pushing fifty, and I just don't think it's in the cards.  But if he hasn't "set his mind to it", I don't know what setting your mind to something means.

Yup.  I don't presume to tell anyone else how to feel--if anyone reading this feels happy and fulfilled being more or less permanently single, that's great--but for me and for a lot of people, being paired up really is right above the very basics of survival and safety.  Which is why I think it's a dangerous message to tell people "don't settle", because I think in many cases they'd be happier settling than being alone, and the latter becomes likely if they get too picky.  But just like what I was talking about earlier in the thread, this goes against that "secular religion" and tends to get a lot of indignant pushback.

Shocker.

Right?  And, I mean, no one (or virtually no one) really thinks "looks don't matter".  In the Scarlett Johanssen movie Under the Skin, there is a severely disfigured character, played by an actor with those disfigurements in real life.  The character at one point

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pinches himself, because he can't believe a hottie like her would be picking him up.

 I saw some people on IMDB say that was cruel or unfair or something.  But how many of them would be interested in dating someone who looked like that?  I've seen interviews with the actor, and he seems like a lovely guy, personality-wise.  But looks do matter, for the vast majority of people.  That's just reality.  And while as I've said elsewhere in this same post that I think pairing up is extremely important for most people, I would not go for someone who looked like Kate.  Even if I knew for a fact it was either be with her or with no one at all, she just doesn't rise above a minimum threshold of attractiveness to consider a non-platonic relationship with.  Not for me, and MMV obviously.  But I think that's true for a lot more people than would admit it.

I also agree with what you said at the end:

It's a very big hurdle.  We've argued it endlessly, but whether people "should" be able to lose weight despite being around someone who eats "highly palatable" junk food all the time (I think that's expecting an awful lot), Kate clearly feels she can't.

I don't think being single necessarily equates  to being eternally alone, so much as being serially monogamous but then again that's true of most married people, too.  Across human history the average length of pairings has always been around 10 years.  

9 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

A lot of people believe that.  I believe there are a lot of people out there who are absolutely convinced they can become the next American Idol or make the NBA or become a self-made billionaire.  But they don't.  Because those things are extremely difficult and it takes a very rare combination of talent and luck to achieve them.  And you say "we can't prove or disprove" something that I think is certainly very testable.  One could quibble about "well, they didn't really set their mind to it", but that's getting into the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.  I have a friend who takes running very seriously.  He applies all the scientific training techniques known to mankind to his regimen, and he has for years wanted to run a sub-three-hour marathon.  I mean, desperately wanted to do this.  He came close a couple years ago, in the New York Marathon, where he finished in just over 3:03.  Other than that, though, he hasn't gotten under 3:10 in any of the many marathons he's run in.  And he is pushing fifty, and I just don't think it's in the cards.  But if he hasn't "set his mind to it", I don't know what setting your mind to something means.

I don't want to beat a dead horse or imply you're wrong or anything because I think it's just a philosophical discussion, and I enjoy it.  I agree that there are goals that (if possible at all) would take way too much for any rational person to take on.  I'd need to both Milli Vanilli a front act and a back act to win anything singing related.  But who knows, if I was willing to go to any extreme including illegal, surgery, blackmailing judges, etc.  We don't know if your friend could've gone to extremes like quit his job and talked some elite track coach into taking him on full time and then done the 3H marathon.  Whatever it took, if possible at all, was beyond his comfort zone, and understandably.

But all Kate wanted was to lose weight without eating with dieters or alone every meal.  People do that all the time.  I think that's how most people lose weight.  People also meet new people to potentially date all the time, especially with online tools.  

[random chance]

8 hours ago, MsJamieDornan said:

Could be decades, I'm serious.

Oh right, I wasn't being sarcastic, it will literally take years.

8 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

A lot of people believe that.  I believe there are a lot of people out there who are absolutely convinced they can become the next American Idol or make the NBA or become a self-made billionaire.  But they don't.  Because those things are extremely difficult and it takes a very rare combination of talent and luck to achieve them. 

Yes, as my mom always said, try for what you want but have a Plan B.

6 hours ago, biakbiak said:

Also, while looks can sometimes matter. I have seldom had friends who think the same people are attractive, including different body types.

True, but I imagine that most of the time they're choosing from similar levels of attractiveness, like a curvy blonde vs the small busted brunette, not disagreeing whether (say) the thin blonde is more attractive than the morbidly obese blonde.

4 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I actually thought Toby suggested a good compromise when he offered to forego unhealthy foods whenever they eat together, but she sabotaged that by taunting him into eating the biggest dessert on the menu in front of her, and then blamed him when she couldn't deal with it.

In hindsight, the only thing wrong with that compromise was that if she had accepted it, he would not have taken a plane cross-country in order to keel over in front of her, giving the Christmas episode its surprise twist ending.

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Across human history the average length of pairings has always been around 10 years.  

Yep, I can vouch for that!

[SlackerInc]

@Winston9-DT3 But most obese people (the vast majority) don't lose the weight and keep it off.  So while you're right in the sense of what's considered "normal" or socially appropriate, that stuff doesn't work.

[biakbiak]

1 minute ago, random chance said:

True, but I imagine that most of the time they're choosing from similar levels of attractiveness, like a curvy blonde vs the small busted brunette, not disagreeing whether (say) the thin blonde is more attractive than the morbidly obese blonde

Actually you would be wrong in my experience. Two of the most attractive dudes and skinnest dudes I know are with women who would be classified by a doctor at least obese. 

[HeySandyStrange]

4 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

Actually you would be wrong in my experience. Two of the most attractive dudes and skinnest dudes I know are with women who would be classified by a doctor at least obese. 

They might be exceptions to the rules, but yes, plenty of those exceptions do exist. While I do still hold that people tend to end up with others at the same level of attractiveness, everyone has a different idea of what is attractive. Some people like partners who are bigger or overweight. Or they are more attracted to features over then weight, like a person's face or personality.  Plus, in my experience, life has a way of throwing things at you that can make you break your own arbitrary rules and regulations. I ended up married to someone younger then me after almost always being attracted to men you were older.  I'm not naïve about the world, but I also have seen enough to know how crazy "fate", as it is, can be on an individual level. Best thing seems to be to keep an open mind.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, SlackerInc said:

@Winston9-DT3 But most obese people (the vast majority) don't lose the weight and keep it off.  So while you're right in the sense of what's considered "normal" or socially appropriate, that stuff doesn't work.

It doesn't work until they work out the details like 'how to eat with non-dieters and not go whole hog themselves', I think.   The people it works for make it a lifestyle change, I think.  To do that, you usually have to first fail at a lot of 'diets', I think.  You discover which tools and foods and tips work for you and just adopt them and that's life, no matter what's happening across the table from you.  

Also, a lot of obese people do have success in dieting even if they don't meet some technical definition of 'keeping all the weight they lost off on their first try'.  Even losing 10% of your weight is hugely beneficial.  That would include losing 25% and then regaining to a net 10% loss.  But those dieters become 'failures' in these statistics about the horrible truth of dieting.  It's 'all or nothing' thinking.  

[ShadowFacts]

15 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Also, a lot of obese people do have success in dieting even if they don't meet some technical definition of 'keeping all the weight they lost off on their first try'.  Even losing 10% of your weight is hugely beneficial.  That would include losing 25% and then regaining to a net 10% loss.  But those dieters become 'failures' in these statistics about the horrible truth of dieting.  It's 'all or nothing' thinking.  

Really good point, yes, it is beneficial for blood pressure and other things, and all or nothing thinking is not helpful. 

[random chance]

25 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

Actually you would be wrong in my experience. Two of the most attractive dudes and skinnest dudes I know are with women who would be classified by a doctor at least obese. 

But it's not like all overweight people are the same weight - there are degrees. There's "classified by a doctor at least obese" and then there's three hundred pounds overweight. There is "can't wear crop tops" and then there is "worried about breaking chairs." Which is not to say that someone won't go for the Kate in the room, but she might have to try a lot more rooms before she finds them than someone half her size. And I'm not saying that to be mean about her, I think it's just realistic. But that's not why I root for her to lose weight, I just think she'll feel better. Who wouldn't?

[OtterMommy]

9 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

It's a very big hurdle.  We've argued it endlessly, but whether people "should" be able to lose weight despite being around someone who eats "highly palatable" junk food all the time (I think that's expecting an awful lot), Kate clearly feels she can't.

I can't get the original quote in here, but it is about Kate having to diet for years.

Perhaps it's all the years of Weight Watchers under my belt, but I think we have to take the word "diet" out of it.  Kate will have to be vigilant about her caloric intake and activite *for the rest of her life.*  Obviously, if she goes back to eating the way she had been, she'd gain weight back.  But, if she loses the weight without surgery, it would be easier for her than "the average person" to gain it back.  Just look at the (admittedly flawed) Biggest Loser report.  After an entire lifetime of being at such a high weight, her metabolism is very fragile.  I'm not saying she's doomed, but she does have a lifetime of hard work ahead of her.  So, let's say she gets down to a healthy weight, whether through "dieting" or surgery...it doesn't stop there.  And I think that is why I thought it was such a good idea for Kate to break up with Toby.

I do think that Kate gets it--yeah, she needs to lose the weight, but she also realizes that there is never going to be a finish line.  Toby, on the other hand, seems to be more of the get 'er done and eat cheetos mentality.  So, even if Toby never fell off the wagon and we got to a point where both characters were at a healthy weight, they would have the SAME problems, although I suspect that they would be harder to overcome--thanks to a deeper emotional involvement (assuming that they are together at that points) and the absence of the visual reminder that Kate (and, frankly, Toby) need to always keep their health at the forefront of their minds.

[random chance]

1 hour ago, OtterMommy said:

I can't get the original quote in here, but it is about Kate having to diet for years.

Perhaps it's all the years of Weight Watchers under my belt, but I think we have to take the word "diet" out of it.  Kate will have to be vigilant about her caloric intake and activite *for the rest of her life.* 

You're right, it's not like she'll ever be able to go back to the way she was eating before. It will be interesting whether she goes through with the gastric bypass or not, because I guess the one plus about it is that it does your thinking for you - eat too much and be sick. But you'd think they could do that with a pill by now, or some kind of food supplement.

[Tiger]

Not to divert the thread, but I think what ultimately doesn't/didn't work for me about Kate being attracted to Toby is that the show never showed or told us why she was attracted to him.  

We've shown repeatedly why Randall was attracted to Beth.  

[OtterMommy]

1 hour ago, Tiger said:

Not to divert the thread, but I think what ultimately doesn't/didn't work for me about Kate being attracted to Toby is that the show never showed or told us why she was attracted to him.  

We've shown repeatedly why Randall was attracted to Beth.  

I get what you are saying.  Yeah, Toby is funny and all that and it's clear that he is into Kate, but we never got to see why Kate is into Toby (and, let's face it, someone like Toby could very well be a turn-off for some).

[Ms Blue Jay]

Either the writers are misjudging Toby as a romantic and attractive character, because it seems on this board about 50% highly disagree that he is such, or the writers are intentionally making Toby a fucked up and controversial character, to show that Kate has some issues to work through.....  I think it's the latter?  But I'm part of the group who thinks Toby is fucked up and I would stay away.  I've been around people who wouldn't respect the boundaries I set before and I could never go back to being around that.

[ShadowFacts]

The way I saw the Toby attraction was his similarity to Jack inasmuch as he was quirky/fun, and totally accepting of Kate and sort of nurturing.  I still thought he was wrong for her because of the pushiness.  Everybody will see him through their own lens of course, and though I would steer clear of the overbearing sort, I see how Kate would like that kind of acceptance. 

[OtterMommy]

48 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Either the writers are misjudging Toby as a romantic and attractive character, because it seems on this board about 50% highly disagree that he is such, or the writers are intentionally making Toby a fucked up and controversial character, to show that Kate has some issues to work through.....  I think it's the latter?  But I'm part of the group who thinks Toby is fucked up and I would stay away.  I've been around people who wouldn't respect the boundaries I set before and I could never go back to being around that.

I'm not sure but, as, I said somewhere here, even though I don't think Toby is good for Kate the way he has been portrayed, I don't think he's an unredeemable character.  So, I guess the second option is my suspicion.

[random chance]

I think if they kill him off, I will assume he was supposed to be romantic and attractive and his entire purpose was to be a plot device. If they don't, I'm back to wondering what they think they're writing, because if I were Kate I would have a restraining order on him by now.

[jhlipton]

On 12/10/2016 at 11:45 AM, J.D. said:

That's one of my biggest fears for my daughter (who's only 4, btw).  I hope to instill enough self-worth in her that she becomes and independent-minded adult, and doesn't think she's nothing without a man.  I hope she focuses on her career and whatever interests she might have, such as traveling, skiing, theater, sky diving, rock climbing, antiquing...whatever.  

My wife calls her grand-niece "Little Mama", just like Beth did, and man, does it grate for me.  I call her "warrior princess" in hopes that it expands her horizons beyond wife and mother.  Blergh.

On 12/11/2016 at 3:17 AM, HeySandyStrange said:

She does have a very pretty face

I'm sure you don't mean it like this, but this a standard "compliment" for fat women. It's all kinds of icky in most circumstances.

Edited December 12, 2016 by jhlipton
removing [ s ]

[HeySandyStrange]

13 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

I'm sure you don't mean it like this, but this a standard "compliment" for fat women. It's all kinds of icky in most circumstances.

Trust me, as a former fat kid and someone who struggles to stay on the chubby side of overweight, I'm quite well aware that telling a fat women they have a "pretty face" can be condescending. Now, this is just me, but I am a "face" person. I find people's faces more attractive and interesting then their bodies. JMO but I'd rather be complimented on my face then being told "look how skinny you are!" or "you lost a ton of weight!". I personally find that much more condescending, as if I was totally, completely unattractive until I lost five or ten pounds and not worth a second look.

[GodsBeloved]

On 12/11/2016 at 5:43 AM, chocolatine said:

Technically, if she wants to not only lose the weight but also keep it off, she's going to have to change her eating habits permanently. And since it's going to take a long time to lose the weight, and forever to keep it off, she needs to learn (a) a healthier and more realistic balance of foods she allows herself to eat (i.e. not just kale and chia seeds for the rest of her life), and (b) how to deal with tempting foods, and with people who eat those foods around her. It's unrealistic (and, IMO, controlling) to expect her boyfriend to share her eating habits. I actually thought Toby suggested a good compromise when he offered to forego unhealthy foods whenever they eat together, but she sabotaged that by taunting him into eating the biggest dessert on the menu in front of her, and then blamed him when she couldn't deal with it.

She needs to sort out her food issues within herself before she can successfully date someone else.

There it is. This isn't about dieting, it's about a lifestyle change.

[ShadowFacts]

I think it would be just that much harder for Kate to make any healthy life changes while grieving, if Toby dies.  Even if her reaction is to not feel like eating for awhile, lifelong habits will crop back up.  Losing someone like that, even though she has only been with him for a few months, is a major stressor.  At least she'll have a chance to try, whereas Toby maybe won't.

[chocolatine]

2 hours ago, jhlipton said:

My wife calls her grand-niece "Little Mama", just like Beth did, and man, does it grate for me.  I call her "warrior princess" in hopes that it expands her horizons beyond wife and mother.  Blergh.

It's just a term of endearment, used in various forms in many cultures (e.g. the Yiddish word "bubbeleh", meaning "little grandma", is used for both girls and boys). Beth, who is a professional woman, an equal partner in her marriage, and wasn't even planning on having children before she met Randall, is hardly trying to limit her daughters' horizons.

Edited December 12, 2016 by chocolatine

[Court]

3 hours ago, jhlipton said:

My wife calls her grand-niece "Little Mama", just like Beth did, and man, does it grate for me.  I call her "warrior princess" in hopes that it expands her horizons beyond wife and mother.  Blergh.

I'm sure you don't mean it like this, but this a standard "compliment" for fat women. It's all kinds of icky in most circumstances.

This is just as insulting. If someone wants to be a wife and mother, there is nothing wrong with that. By saying that's not enough, or just wife and mother, the implication is that woman is less and not good enough. It's essentially still limiting women. If a woman wants to be a wife and mother, it's just as good as women who choose a different path. 

Plenty of women who choose to be a wife and mother are not lacking self-worth. 

My daughter loves superheroes which is great. However, it grates when people praise it on the basis of oh yay, not a princess. It's basically saying that liking the "girly" things is wrong.  She likes princesses too and makeup. That's just as good 

Edited December 12, 2016 by Court

[Guest]

I thought 'little mamas' was weird but I chalked it up to culture.  I know the LAST thing I want to think about in the context of my minor daughter is anything remotely motherhood related!  

Do we know Beth works?  

[chocolatine]

39 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Do we know Beth works?  

Yes, when they had the pregnancy scare she mentioned that she had just gone back to work full-time.

[OtterMommy]

13 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Yes, when they had the pregnancy scare she mentioned that she had just gone back to work full-time.

I think what they said was that she was just about to go back to work full-time, but was still working at home.

[chocolatine]

7 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

I think what they said was that she was just about to go back to work full-time, but was still working at home.

I don't remember the exact details, but the point is that she is, and has been, working.

[random chance]

3 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I think it would be just that much harder for Kate to make any healthy life changes while grieving, if Toby dies.  Even if her reaction is to not feel like eating for awhile, lifelong habits will crop back up.  Losing someone like that, even though she has only been with him for a few months, is a major stressor.  At least she'll have a chance to try, whereas Toby maybe won't.

I bet it depends on what killed him. If it's a plane blood clot his weight wouldn't have mattered, but if it's weight-related the writers might have that scare her straight, so to speak?

[OtterMommy]

1 hour ago, random chance said:

I bet it depends on what killed him. If it's a plane blood clot his weight wouldn't have mattered, but if it's weight-related the writers might have that scare her straight, so to speak?

Well, I don't think he'll die...but I agree that if he died because of this, it might give Kate more resolve to change her own life.

 

There was a comment above somewhere (sorry, can't find it to quote it) saying that Kate expecting Toby to stay on a diet was controlling.  I actually don't agree in this situation.  When Kate first met Toby, she told him 2 things:
1 - Losing weight was her #1 priority
2 - She couldn't be with a fat man, because that would jeopardize #1.

Toby acknowledged this and agreed with it, saying that he would lose weight for her (and there is so much wrong with that....).  When Kate found Toby cheating, and Toby basically changed the terms, Kate didn't try and force him to stick to his diet.  She decided that her health was more important and broke things off.  I don't find that controlling at all.

Edited December 13, 2016 by OtterMommy

[Tiger]

11 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

The way I saw the Toby attraction was his similarity to Jack inasmuch as he was quirky/fun, and totally accepting of Kate and sort of nurturing.  I still thought he was wrong for her because of the pushiness.  Everybody will see him through their own lens of course, and though I would steer clear of the overbearing sort, I see how Kate would like that kind of acceptance. 

Your milage may vary, but IMHO Toby is nothing like Jack; they couldnt be more different.

[chocolatine]

12 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

There was a comment above somewhere (sorry, can't find it to quote it) saying that Kate expecting Toby to stay on a diet was controlling.  I actually don't agree in this situation.  When Kate first met Toby, she told him 2 things:
1 - Losing weight was her #1 priority
2 - She couldn't be with a fat man, because that would jeopardize #1.

Toby acknowledged this and agreed with it, saying that he would lose weight for her (and there is so much wrong with that....).  When Kate found Toby cheating, and Toby basically changed the terms, Kate didn't try and force him to stick to his diet.  She decided that her health was more important and broke things off.  I don't find that controlling at all.

I'm the one who said that. I was referring to Kate's refusal to accept Toby's compromise that he would eat what she eats when they're together, but when she's not around he would eat what he wants. She made it a condition that if they were to stay together, he was to follow her diet at all times and never eat what he wants. Imagine if the genders were reversed and Toby was the one to insist that Kate follow a diet lest he break up with her. We'd have pages and pages of outraged comments.

Edited December 13, 2016 by chocolatine

[OtterMommy]

Just now, chocolatine said:

I'm the one who said that. I was referring to Kate's refusal to accept Toby's compromise that he would eat what she eats when they're together, but when she's not around he would eat what he wants. She made it a condition that if they are to stay together, he was to follow her diet at all times and never eat what he wants. Imagine if the genders were reversed and Toby was the one to insist that Kate follow a diet lest he break up with her. We'd have pages and pages of outraged comments.

Ah, I see!  I will admit I saw it in a quote, so I probably didn't have the full context.  I will say, though, that I don't think the compromise would work.  Admittedly this is just based on the one date scene where she broke up with him, but Toby did make kind of a big deal (big deal = mentioning it) that he was being SO good when she was around.  My suspicion is that, given Toby's personality, it would become an issue. I can't see him NOT mentioning how "good" he was being every time they went out--probably in an attempt to be what he think is supportive, but still.

(This is not to discredit what you said about her conditions.  Yeah, that was a little control freakish.  I'm re-watching the series and I haven't gotten back up to that episode and must have missed that the first time around).

[random chance]

28 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

My suspicion is that, given Toby's personality, it would become an issue. I can't see him NOT mentioning how "good" he was being every time they went out--probably in an attempt to be what he think is supportive, but still.

Or even just thwarting her by wanting to eat out a lot, and complaining if she didn't want to.

[ClareWalks]

Kate never gave Toby an ultimatum, "diet or I'm dumping you." She realized that would be unfair, but that she needs to focus on her own weight loss. I don't see how she could have handled the situation any better. I know the two situations aren't entirely equal, but imagine if they met in a smoking-cessation group and Toby continued to smoke socially. If Kate wanted to totally abstain from cigarettes, but knew being with Toby would be tempting her to "fall off the wagon," then it would be proper to break up with him without demanding that he quit entirely. Toby's on his own journey.

[romantic idiot]

RE: Toby's attractiveness - he's funny, which is enough for the first date and sweet which is enough (together with being funny) for the rest of them. IMO of course. I don't need to dig beyond that. The sparked non verbally before they even spoke so I don't doubt their regard for each other. 

On 12/12/2016 at 11:00 PM, jhlipton said:

I'm sure you don't mean it like this, but this a standard "compliment" for fat women. It's all kinds of icky in most circumstances.

What is this increasing trend of banning words rather than banning the thoughts behind them. She has a really lovely face - that should be ignored because some fat women don't? Or because mean people couldn't find more to say? What should be said instead? they have a great personality? Maybe the person (like Kate sometimes) is really negative and grumpy? 

[ClareWalks]

4 minutes ago, romantic idiot said:

What is this increasing trend of banning words rather than banning the thoughts behind them. She has a really lovely face - that should be ignored because some fat women don't? Or because mean people couldn't find more to say? What should be said instead? they have a great personality? Maybe the person (like Kate sometimes) is really negative and grumpy? 

Yeah, I understand that people don't like to hear that one of their features is attractive enough to comment on (if they fill in the blank that the rest of them isn't). In college I got told I had a "really hot body" a lot. I'm not trying to brag, I'm just trying to point out that I could rightfully rag on people for basically calling me a butterface (which I totally WAS), or I could understand that they are trying, in a slightly misguided way, to pay me a compliment. Honestly, it's better to have a pretty face than a hot body. You can't change your face, except surgically.

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, ClareWalks said:

Honestly, it's better to have a pretty face than a hot body.

True story: when I was a chubby teen, all the "well-meaning" adults in my life told me I had such a pretty face, if only I lost some weight. Fast forward to my early 20s, I lose some weight while in grad school, and what reaction do I get from the pretty face crowd? "Your body looks great, but your face is not as pretty anymore". That's when I realized the problem wasn't my body OR my face, it was just that some people love giving back-handed compliments.

Edited December 13, 2016 by chocolatine

[luna1122]

4 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

True story: when I was a chubby teen, all the "well-meaning" adults in my life told I had such a pretty face, if only I lost some weight. Fast forward to my early 20s, I lose some weight while in grad school, and what reaction do I get from the pretty face crowd? "Your body looks great, but your face is not as pretty anymore". That's when I realized the problem wasn't my body OR my face, it was just that some people love giving back-handed compliments.

wow. people are dicks.

[chocolatine]

3 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

wow. people are dicks.

Yes, but by that point, I had stopped letting those kinds of comments get to me. Plus, I for one loved my slimmed-down face. I finally had cheekbones!

[ShadowFacts]

28 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

wow. people are dicks.

Or who wouldn't know a boundary if it bit them in the ass. 

[ClareWalks]

35 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

"Your body looks great, but your face is not as pretty anymore".

Ugh. I'd be like "bitch, this ain't a courtroom, you don't need to tell the truth, the WHOLE truth, and nothing but the truth."

[memememe76]

I think the "You have such a pretty face" comment gets a negative reaction from the recipient because the utterance is often said in a sad, wisftul way, and the sentence trails off, as if there's more to say (i.e. "If only you lost the weight!"). 

[jhlipton]

On 12/12/2016 at 5:34 PM, Court said:

This is just as insulting. If someone wants to be a wife and mother, there is nothing wrong with that. By saying that's not enough, or just wife and mother, the implication is that woman is less and not good enough.

Taking this to "Social Issues".

 

4 hours ago, memememe76 said:

I think the "You have such a pretty face" comment gets a negative reaction from the recipient because the utterance is often said in a sad, wisftul way, and the sentence trails off, as if there's more to say (i.e. "If only you lost the weight!"). 

Yeah, for me it's the (implied) "if only" that comes with the "pretty face" remark.  If someone isn't implying it, it's a nice compliment.

[SlackerInc]

On 12/11/2016 at 2:08 PM, Tiger said:

Not to divert the thread, but I think what ultimately doesn't/didn't work for me about Kate being attracted to Toby is that the show never showed or told us why she was attracted to him.  

This will likely get some dander up, but I think the unacknowledged reality here is the attractiveness of "he's into me, and I don't have a lot of options".

On 12/12/2016 at 8:36 AM, Ms Blue Jay said:

Either the writers are misjudging Toby as a romantic and attractive character, because it seems on this board about 50% highly disagree that he is such, or the writers are intentionally making Toby a fucked up and controversial character, to show that Kate has some issues to work through.....  I think it's the latter?  But I'm part of the group who thinks Toby is fucked up and I would stay away.  I've been around people who wouldn't respect the boundaries I set before and I could never go back to being around that.

I think Toby functions as a very interesting Rohrschach test.  I don't know if anyone listens to the Buzz TV podcast for this show, but they all LOVE Toby unabashedly.  They eat up his "grand romantic gestures" with a spoon.  And I suspect they represent mainstream America more than this board does.  Think about all the movies in which flat out stalking is presented as romantic.  There is a fundamental disconnect between large swaths of American culture and what we might call a more educated elite.  Look at the reaction, for instance, to Trump bragging about groping women without consent ("I don't even wait").  The NY Times interviewed women who were like "cool: he can grope me!"  Appalling but true.

And I remember reading an article in which a high school teacher was trying to caution the boys in the class to be careful about sexual consent in ambiguous situations, and he basically facepalmed because several girls talked about how they'd be frustrated if guys applied these rules of thumb, because they like to play a little "hard to get" so as not to seem "slutty", but they'd lose respect for a guy who didn't have the "balls" to push things a little.

The point being, what most here quite rightly view as overstepping boundaries, huge portions of the country see as "knight in shining armor" type stuff.

On 12/12/2016 at 1:00 PM, jhlipton said:

I'm sure you don't mean it like this, but this a standard "compliment" for fat women. It's all kinds of icky in most circumstances.

Again, I'm going to get some dander up, but I would say that one of Kate's handicaps in the dating arena is that her obesity has crossed a threshold where it messes up her face too.  Within a certain range, you can be pretty heavy and still have a "normal" face, but she is just not within that range.  I don't think there's any selfie she could take, assuming a decent amount of light and showing her full face from top of head down to chin, that wouldn't make it obvious she was morbidly obese--unless of course it were heavily Photoshopped.

[MsJamieDornan]

12 minutes ago, SlackerInc said:

she was morbidly obese-

She is past what is called morbidly obese, she is actually super obese . I looked it up.

Edited December 14, 2016 by MsJamieDornan

[SlackerInc]

36 minutes ago, MsJamieDornan said:

She is past what is called morbidly obese, she is actually super obese . I looked it up.

Interesting!  Which, following your lead, is much rarer.  According to this source (http://www.hubariatrics.com/files/ObesityinUSFactSheet.pdf), which looks to be legit, there are 300 times as many morbidly obese adults in the U.S. as super obese, and about 1300 times as many plain "obese" adults.  So only about one in every 5,000 adults is super obese, while one-third of all adults are obese or morbidly obese.  That makes a big difference in storytelling, so I can definitely understand why some people wonder why they didn't portray a less rare version of a weight problem (like plain morbid obesity, affecting one in every 16 U.S. adults).  And it also makes me feel that a lot of people like to dodge or paper over hard truths when they say or imply "oh, but Kate is perfectly attractive, she can be picky and not have to 'settle', that's someone else's loss or the sign of poor character if they let the weight get in the way".

But I do think the writers understand this.  They have her saying "I've GOT to lose the weight".  Because it really is massively out of control.  It's just enabling IMO to say to someone like that "nah, you don't need to lose weight: beautiful at every size!"  (Again, I'd sing a different tune if she were even a rung down in the "morbidly obese" category, which I didn't realize was so common.)

And maybe that is why they picked someone "super obese", despite it being such a rare situation: to forestall any audience or critical complaints that she should just be happy with her body as is.  Only it seems not to have worked with a lot of people!

[MsJamieDornan]

23 minutes ago, SlackerInc said:

But I do think the writers understand this.  They have her saying "I've GOT to lose the weight".  Because it really is massively out of control.  It's just enabling IMO to say to someone like that "nah, you don't need to lose weight: beautiful at every size!"  (Again, I'd sing a different tune if she were even a rung down in the "morbidly obese" category, which I didn't realize was so common.)

Thank you for all the great information. I'm glad you made things clear. It was bothering me that viewers think she is morbidly obese and using that term. She is way past that, as your research showed, being morbidly obese can be pretty common. Kate's weight is not common.

When the viewers want her story to be more than about her weight, it cant be. Her weight is a daily struggle to find a chair she wont break, a booth she can fit in (none), a seat belt in her car that will fit, if she can even get behind the wheel. A watch that will fit her wrist, can she get thru turnstiles at events, clothes that fit and so on. She has to plan every move with her weight in mind. 

If they went with an actress that was just obese, we could have a lot more story lines. Believable ones.

[HeySandyStrange]

9 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

Again, I'm going to get some dander up, but I would say that one of Kate's handicaps in the dating arena is that her obesity has crossed a threshold where it messes up her face too.

No dander. I don't think anyone will deny, especially any one who has struggled with weight, that it can obscure your facial features. I do think (opinion only) that Kate's features as they are now are still very pretty. Plus she has nice coloring, that striking combo of pale skin, dark hair and pale eyes. Yes, she doesn't fall into many people idea of attractive, but that isn't to say they aren't people who would find her attractive. Hell, some people only prefer overweight or obese people. I get that those people tend to be fetishists, but still they are out there.

If anything I wonder if Kate's personality would get in her way. Neurotic, moody, negative--not very attractive. I do appreciate a fat women character who isn't written as some saint or funny sidekick, but I can see her personality wearing on someone.