S02.E12: eps2.9_pyth0n-pt2.p7z

[Sydka]

Fringe is everything.  My favorite show of all time.  If you haven't seen it, please watch it.  And I agree with hincandenza -- John Noble was hands down the best actor in any universe during every year that show was on.  The man should have 600 Emmys.   kat165 - The Fringe vibes I get are usually tonal, like Mr. Robot wants to be more sci-fi than it currently is.  Also character-wise: Elliot and Peter/Olivia being special.   The Chosen Ones in a cosmic plan.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Mr. Robot Did What Needed To Be Done

Did it rely on English majors to do the rest? Sarah D. Bunting de-versifies the season finale.

[Cekrypton1]

The way Angela was talking to Tyrell, it sounded like the talk of someone in charge. Remember when she reminded Darlene of when they were kids, Elliot and Darlene would act like they were smarter than Angela? I wonder if, based on their childhoods, Angela knows a way to trigger Mr. Robot to become the dominant personality, and she and Mr. Robot have been planning this Evil Corp revenge together?

I love when we get to see Mr. Robot, channeled by Elliot, interact with other characters. Mallek does a good job of subtlely shading his performance in the conversation with Tyrell in the car, with some Slater-ness.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Cekrypton1 said:

I love when we get to see Mr. Robot, channeled by Elliot, interact with other characters. Mallek does a good job of subtlely shading his performance in the conversation with Tyrell in the car, with some Slater-ness.

I was just going to mention this! He actually changed the timbre of his voice.

Sarah Bunting's recap is worth reading.

If neither White Rose nor her male persona were on the FBI board, does that mean she's working with them, perhaps? Or maybe Dom is a mole in the FBI working for White Rose?

I'm glad I didn't bother to look up python (the animal, not the code) before watching.
Did anyone notice the pythonesque images on the Frys store sign? 
Ah, Frys. Back when I accidentally wrote my first (and only) virus in the 90s in Sacto.

[Milaxx]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

  2 hours ago, Cekrypton1 said:

I love when we get to see Mr. Robot, channeled by Elliot, interact with other characters. Mallek does a good job of subtlely shading his performance in the conversation with Tyrell in the car, with some Slater-ness.

That was also a flashback of what happened during the missing 3 days post 5/9 hack. Mallek's performance makes it clear Mr.Robot and not Elliot is running the show.

[SimoneS]

At the end of last season, I thought that Elliot killed Tyrell after he forced him to set everything in motion. I still think that is the more likely scenario.

[Chaos Theory]

I don't know why but this season I didn't watch this show live.  I still enjoyed it maybe more then last season but just not live.  I loved the "Moths Don't Care" Song and thought it fit incredibly well with the show and loved watching Darleen walk past the FBI into the wall chart room.  The Darleen/Dom stuff was probably a highlight for me.  I am probably way in the minority (I haven't read other peoples posts I don't want to be influenced by other peoples posts yet)  but I enjoyed their stuff way more then they Elliot/Tyrell scenes.    I did however like the reveal that Tyrell is apparently a real person.  Not everyone is a figment of Elliot imagination.  I also like the reveal that Angela has finally chosen a side.     Only minus though was I missed Angela.  Could have used more Angela as she is my favorite non Eliiot/Mr. Robot Character.  Then again also a minority opinion.  Apparently I have alot of those.

Bring on season 3.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[tankgirl73]

Oh my, that Trinity allegory with that photo is Beautiful. The Father and the Son -- although since this 'father' is a product of the brain of this 'son' it could be argued that they're both, well, both. And the Holy Ghost -- Tyrrell is a dead man. Whether literally (if he's also in Elliott's head) or just because society presumes him to be. Angela as Magdalena, the disciples, it's all just Beautiful.

As for Tyrrell, I'm still really conflicted about his reality. I think the episode (from his reveal in part I last week) is designed to make us believe he's in Elliott's head so that we'll be surprised when Elliott is actually shot. So all the stuff that looks like subtle clues that he's not real, are fake-outs, and he's real all along. But... if it turns out he's NOT real, then the clues were legitimate and the shooting is a fakeout. Designed to make us say "dammit I though I had it figured out but I was wrong", just to throw us off. Either way is plausible.

If he's a figment, or an alter, then he's definitely a "new creation" -- he wasn't *always* an alter.  I think it's clear (as much as anything ever is) that Tyrrell was a real, separate individual. Whether he *still* is, or not, is the question.

Evidence that he's real: he appears to have been hard at work on the outside while Elliott was incarcerated.  Possible explanation if he's actually an alter: there are others who were doing the work and after his release, Elliott-as-Tyrell got caught up on the goings-on. After all, they are working with the Dark Army, right? There's that bored guard who let them in. There's a whole network at work here, not just Tyrell by himself. Other possible explanation: no work got done while he was incarcerated, and that's why White Rose got him out... perhaps it was a project that could wait until e-corp's moving of papers was underway, so they had the details needed to set it in motion. From the instant he got out, he right away got to work and did all this very quickly -- with some help from the Dark Army, of course.

Then of course there's the fact that Elliott got shot. That means Tyrell is real, right? Well... I'm not sure. Possible explanation if he's actually an alter: Elliott has self-harmed before when he thought it was Mr Robot doing it to him. Like when he was "pushed" off that railing onto the beach and landed in hospital. He's backed himself against a wall and choked himself. It's not at all implausible for him to shoot himself, all the while believing that someone else had done it to him. It's also not at all implausible for the shot to not be real either. It could be that Angela is talking to Elliott-as-Tyrell and when he 'wakes up' just means when they bring that consciousness back online.

Evidence that Tyrell is (currently) an alter of Elliott's: For a wanted man (even *the most* wanted man) living in hiding for the past many months, he walks around the city pretty openly. And what's with still the fancy suit?  Then there's that shot of the 3 of them, framed as the 'real', main persona in the middle and the others flanking on either side, with the lights in the background radiating from Elliott's head out to theirs. With Mr Robot saying "for all of us", as though it's encompassing them all, bringing all the personalities together again. And then there's the fact that we have not yet actually seen Tyrell interact directly with anybody other than Elliott since being revealed last week. That's not 'evidence' per se, and it could be deliberately planted to make us suspicious, but it still is suspicious. And Elliott said, at the very beginning of the episode, that everything we see and experience might not be 'real'. It sounds like quasi-matrix sensory mysticism, but maybe it's also a clue that HE isn't seeing what is real right now either.

Mr Robot did say that Elliott is only being told what he's ready to know. It could be that (whoever decides what he's ready for) determined that Elliott needed to learn about this plan of Phase 2, and in order to do that, he had to 'see' Tyrell. But at the same time, they knew that he's not ready to learn that he has another alter. So when he started getting too close to figuring it out, he self-shut down by either shooting himself or believing that he got shot. Either way, it's to protect the whole plan. "You brought this on yourself kiddo" Mr Robot says as Elliott loses consciousness -- because he tried to stop the plan, or because he figured out too soon that he has another alter? Or a bit of both?

I'm not sure how all that jibes with Mr Robot's search for the menu which gave the info for finding Tyrell. If Tyrell is an alter, then that must have been all Mr Robot's subterfuge to deliberately lead Elliott to the other base of operations. Which means Mr Robot knew the whole time that Elliott was watching him. All in his own mind. Pretttty creepy.

Random thought: White Rose seems to show up in the US a lot. But her male persona is a Chinese government official, observed doing government business in China. Does her obsession with time apply to international flights? Does she get jet lag? Millions of frequent flyer miles? Does she fly as White Rose or as the male Minister? I'd presume she's flying in a private jet, but still... Does she have a closet of beautiful dresses in the US? Does she have an apartment in the US? Is that suburban house where they took Angela where she stays while in the US? Does anyone in China wonder where their minister is during the *days* in a row where White Rose is either en route to the US, on the way back, or holding secret back room meetings with hackers and their friends?

[kat165]

Misstify, you really should give Fringe a try. Once I got past the true love through time bullshit (although not as nauseatingly bad as Haven's version)(but that could also be because I really like the two actors involved, Joshua Jackson and Anna Torv) it's great run. Despite the final season. Walter Bishop (John Noble) who plays Jackson's father is one of the most loveable, delightful characters ever seen on tv or in the movies. Their handling of the alta-verse is chilling, surprising and amazingly good. And the supporting cast is/was one of the best. That's
another show that will keep you guessing and talking. The father/son story throughout is moving and riveting and so well done.

Back on topic, I too would like to get a better look at that chart. Thank you hincandenza for the chart!

Ali, Aimee is wonderful. I especially like Coming Up Close from one of her first lps, I think back in 86.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtOgwFzhlyw

Thank you, Sydka, I'm getting the "tonal" now.

Cekrypton mentions something I've wondered about. Does Angela know about Elliot's alter?

Shapeshifter, I'd love it if Dom was the mole for WhiteRose. That would make her more interesting, at least for me. But I didn't get the sense from her when they were touring his/her closet that they'd met before.

Tankgirl, nice analysis of Tyrell, real or alter. I think too he was once "real" as was Mr. Robot. But I go round and round on this.

About WhiteRose and him being in the US a lot - I don't know if there is more to this or it's typical tv magic as to how a character goes from one far off place to another in a matter of seconds and unrealistically often.

[Milaxx]

36 minutes ago, kat165 said:

Cekrypton mentions something I've wondered about. Does Angela know about Elliot's alter?

I'm not sure if anyone knows about Elliot's alter. I know Angela, Darlene and Krista are aware that he see his dead father. Just not sure they realize it's to the extent that the persona takes over.

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

At the end of last season, I thought that Elliot killed Tyrell after he forced him to set everything in motion. I still think that is the more likely scenario.

Tyrell is alive.

1 hour ago, tankgirl73 said:

Oh my, that Trinity allegory with that photo is Beautiful. The Father and the Son -- although since this 'father' is a product of the brain of this 'son' it could be argued that they're both, well, both. And the Holy Ghost -- Tyrrell is a dead man. Whether literally (if he's also in Elliott's head) or just because society presumes him to be. Angela as Magdalena, the disciples, it's all just Beautiful.

As for Tyrrell, I'm still really conflicted about his reality. I think the episode (from his reveal in part I last week) is designed to make us believe he's in Elliott's head so that we'll be surprised when Elliott is actually shot. So all the stuff that looks like subtle clues that he's not real, are fake-outs, and he's real all along. But... if it turns out he's NOT real, then the clues were legitimate and the shooting is a fakeout. Designed to make us say "dammit I though I had it figured out but I was wrong", just to throw us off. Either way is plausible.

If he's a figment, or an alter, then he's definitely a "new creation" -- he wasn't *always* an alter.  I think it's clear (as much as anything ever is) that Tyrrell was a real, separate individual. Whether he *still* is, or not, is the question.

Evidence that he's real: he appears to have been hard at work on the outside while Elliott was incarcerated.  Possible explanation if he's actually an alter: there are others who were doing the work and after his release, Elliott-as-Tyrell got caught up on the goings-on. After all, they are working with the Dark Army, right? There's that bored guard who let them in. There's a whole network at work here, not just Tyrell by himself. Other possible explanation: no work got done while he was incarcerated, and that's why White Rose got him out... perhaps it was a project that could wait until e-corp's moving of papers was underway, so they had the details needed to set it in motion. From the instant he got out, he right away got to work and did all this very quickly -- with some help from the Dark Army, of course.

Then of course there's the fact that Elliott got shot. That means Tyrell is real, right? Well... I'm not sure. Possible explanation if he's actually an alter: Elliott has self-harmed before when he thought it was Mr Robot doing it to him. Like when he was "pushed" off that railing onto the beach and landed in hospital. He's backed himself against a wall and choked himself. It's not at all implausible for him to shoot himself, all the while believing that someone else had done it to him. It's also not at all implausible for the shot to not be real either. It could be that Angela is talking to Elliott-as-Tyrell and when he 'wakes up' just means when they bring that consciousness back online.

Evidence that Tyrell is (currently) an alter of Elliott's: For a wanted man (even *the most* wanted man) living in hiding for the past many months, he walks around the city pretty openly. And what's with still the fancy suit?  Then there's that shot of the 3 of them, framed as the 'real', main persona in the middle and the others flanking on either side, with the lights in the background radiating from Elliott's head out to theirs. With Mr Robot saying "for all of us", as though it's encompassing them all, bringing all the personalities together again. And then there's the fact that we have not yet actually seen Tyrell interact directly with anybody other than Elliott since being revealed last week. That's not 'evidence' per se, and it could be deliberately planted to make us suspicious, but it still is suspicious. And Elliott said, at the very beginning of the episode, that everything we see and experience might not be 'real'. It sounds like quasi-matrix sensory mysticism, but maybe it's also a clue that HE isn't seeing what is real right now either.

Mr Robot did say that Elliott is only being told what he's ready to know. It could be that (whoever decides what he's ready for) determined that Elliott needed to learn about this plan of Phase 2, and in order to do that, he had to 'see' Tyrell. But at the same time, they knew that he's not ready to learn that he has another alter. So when he started getting too close to figuring it out, he self-shut down by either shooting himself or believing that he got shot. Either way, it's to protect the whole plan. "You brought this on yourself kiddo" Mr Robot says as Elliott loses consciousness -- because he tried to stop the plan, or because he figured out too soon that he has another alter? Or a bit of both?

I'm not sure how all that jibes with Mr Robot's search for the menu which gave the info for finding Tyrell. If Tyrell is an alter, then that must have been all Mr Robot's subterfuge to deliberately lead Elliott to the other base of operations. Which means Mr Robot knew the whole time that Elliott was watching him. All in his own mind. Pretttty creepy.

Random thought: White Rose seems to show up in the US a lot. But her male persona is a Chinese government official, observed doing government business in China. Does her obsession with time apply to international flights? Does she get jet lag? Millions of frequent flyer miles? Does she fly as White Rose or as the male Minister? I'd presume she's flying in a private jet, but still... Does she have a closet of beautiful dresses in the US? Does she have an apartment in the US? Is that suburban house where they took Angela where she stays while in the US? Does anyone in China wonder where their minister is during the *days* in a row where White Rose is either en route to the US, on the way back, or holding secret back room meetings with hackers and their friends?

I thought after this week it was pretty clear that Tyrell was a real person and alive and kicking.  For me the simplest check point is when police were after Tryell for Sharon Knowles murder. His face was plastered all over the new media, including in the prison where Elliot was. However in this article Sam Esmail verifies that not only is Tyrell a real person, but his is indeed alive.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Milaxx

[Ottis]

What the hell is this show about anymore? A poorly thought out, failed hack and an attempt to make it stick? Does anyone care? Tyrell, Angela, whatever. There is no suspense. Anything can mean anything, or nothing. Weirdness for the sake of being weird. Close to checking out.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, tankgirl73 said:

Oh my, that Trinity allegory with that photo is Beautiful. The Father and the Son -- although since this 'father' is a product of the brain of this 'son' it could be argued that they're both, well, both. And the Holy Ghost -- Tyrrell is a dead man. Whether literally (if he's also in Elliott's head) or just because society presumes him to be. Angela as Magdalena, the disciples, it's all just Beautiful.

As for Tyrrell, I'm still really conflicted about his reality. I think the episode (from his reveal in part I last week) is designed to make us believe he's in Elliott's head so that we'll be surprised when Elliott is actually shot. So all the stuff that looks like subtle clues that he's not real, are fake-outs, and he's real all along. But... if it turns out he's NOT real, then the clues were legitimate and the shooting is a fakeout. Designed to make us say "dammit I though I had it figured out but I was wrong", just to throw us off. Either way is plausible.

If he's a figment, or an alter, then he's definitely a "new creation" -- he wasn't *always* an alter.  I think it's clear (as much as anything ever is) that Tyrrell was a real, separate individual. Whether he *still* is, or not, is the question.

Evidence that he's real: he appears to have been hard at work on the outside while Elliott was incarcerated.  Possible explanation if he's actually an alter: there are others who were doing the work and after his release, Elliott-as-Tyrell got caught up on the goings-on. After all, they are working with the Dark Army, right? There's that bored guard who let them in. There's a whole network at work here, not just Tyrell by himself. Other possible explanation: no work got done while he was incarcerated, and that's why White Rose got him out... perhaps it was a project that could wait until e-corp's moving of papers was underway, so they had the details needed to set it in motion. From the instant he got out, he right away got to work and did all this very quickly -- with some help from the Dark Army, of course.

Then of course there's the fact that Elliott got shot. That means Tyrell is real, right? Well... I'm not sure. Possible explanation if he's actually an alter: Elliott has self-harmed before when he thought it was Mr Robot doing it to him. Like when he was "pushed" off that railing onto the beach and landed in hospital. He's backed himself against a wall and choked himself. It's not at all implausible for him to shoot himself, all the while believing that someone else had done it to him. It's also not at all implausible for the shot to not be real either. It could be that Angela is talking to Elliott-as-Tyrell and when he 'wakes up' just means when they bring that consciousness back online.

Evidence that Tyrell is (currently) an alter of Elliott's: For a wanted man (even *the most* wanted man) living in hiding for the past many months, he walks around the city pretty openly. And what's with still the fancy suit?  Then there's that shot of the 3 of them, framed as the 'real', main persona in the middle and the others flanking on either side, with the lights in the background radiating from Elliott's head out to theirs. With Mr Robot saying "for all of us", as though it's encompassing them all, bringing all the personalities together again. And then there's the fact that we have not yet actually seen Tyrell interact directly with anybody other than Elliott since being revealed last week. That's not 'evidence' per se, and it could be deliberately planted to make us suspicious, but it still is suspicious. And Elliott said, at the very beginning of the episode, that everything we see and experience might not be 'real'. It sounds like quasi-matrix sensory mysticism, but maybe it's also a clue that HE isn't seeing what is real right now either....

Tankgirl73, I think in this episode it was revealed that Elliot is not sure if Tyrell is an alter, but the audience was shown that he is real. If this is correct, some of the times Elliot sees Tyrell may not be real. Anyone else see it this way or can explain why this interpretation is wrong? 

 

22 MINUTES AGO, KAT165 SAID:

...Shapeshifter, I'd love it if Dom was the mole for WhiteRose. That would make her more interesting, at least for me. But I didn't get the sense from her when they were touring his/her closet that they'd met before....

Kat165, of course it's just speculation, but if Dom was a mole, it's possible the recruiting took place entirely online, or with other mediators. White Rose seems to genuinely believe in her mission, which could be quite attractive to lonely Dom. If it turns out that the plant that caused cancer is also some experiment in time travel, I suppose there could be a plan to eventually travel back and heal them by preventing the cancer. But given the level of reality of the show, I don't think that will happen, although it could be White Rose's own break with reality.

[kat165]

Thanks, Milaxx, for reminding me that Angela, Darlene and Krista all know he sees his father but not to what extent. And that article was a good read. Answered a few questions for me.

Ottis, I don't think I can convince you otherwise. Many times this season I was almost at the point of checking out. But I enjoy shows that make you think, rarely go for the light/thoughtless entertainment in my tv fare. Plus I like hackers (from a purely existential point of view). I don't think this show is weird just to be weird. I do think a lot of thought goes into it. Although I think it has pacing issues which can be mistaken for weird to be weird.

Shapeshifter, good point, about the online contact.

I'm still on/off about Tyrell having been real at one time, but maybe not now. And maybe too (another good point!) for Elliot sometimes he's really there and sometimes he's just a hallucination is also interesting.

I love a show that gets us talking & analyzing. Even if it does hurt my brain at times.

[Cardie]

1 hour ago, tankgirl73 said:

Random thought: White Rose seems to show up in the US a lot. But her male persona is a Chinese government official, observed doing government business in China. Does her obsession with time apply to international flights? Does she get jet lag? Millions of frequent flyer miles? Does she fly as White Rose or as the male Minister? I'd presume she's flying in a private jet, but still... Does she have a closet of beautiful dresses in the US? Does she have an apartment in the US? Is that suburban house where they took Angela where she stays while in the US? Does anyone in China wonder where their minister is during the *days* in a row where White Rose is either en route to the US, on the way back, or holding secret back room meetings with hackers and their friends?

LOL. Perhaps this is proof that Whiterose eventually invents that time travel device and can thus be in two places at the same time.

[hincandenza]

1 hour ago, tankgirl73 said:

Oh my, that Trinity allegory with that photo is Beautiful. The Father and the Son -- although since this 'father' is a product of the brain of this 'son' it could be argued that they're both, well, both. And the Holy Ghost -- Tyrrell is a dead man. Whether literally (if he's also in Elliott's head) or just because society presumes him to be. Angela as Magdalena, the disciples, it's all just Beautiful.

Random thought: White Rose seems to show up in the US a lot. But her male persona is a Chinese government official, observed doing government business in China. Does her obsession with time apply to international flights? Does she get jet lag? Millions of frequent flyer miles? Does she fly as White Rose or as the male Minister? I'd presume she's flying in a private jet, but still... Does she have a closet of beautiful dresses in the US? Does she have an apartment in the US? Is that suburban house where they took Angela where she stays while in the US? Does anyone in China wonder where their minister is during the *days* in a row where White Rose is either en route to the US, on the way back, or holding secret back room meetings with hackers and their friends?

Aw, thanks!  And to add another log to the fire, it occurred to me that Jesus rose after 3 days, aaaand Elliot and Tyrell had their missing 3 days as well... :)  I am kind of tickled to imagine that some production assistant would hand Esmail his weekly Internet recap, and he'd blurt out after reading my post "Gah, are these internet people crazy?!  Do they think I'm doing some sort William Gibson version of 'Jesus Christ Superstar' here?!?"

Yeah, I've been wondering the same thing about WR in America; he/she was there as the minister when Dom and the FBI went to China, but seems to always be around in the US.  Perhaps WR is just the Littlefinger of "Mr. Robot". :)  To be fair, we're seeing a compacted view of three months' time, so perhaps WR comes to China once every few weeks for official business, during which time she gets up to her underworld/Dark Army shenanigans; her clout is such that she can meet these people on her schedule.  It's still unclear whether or how much China supports the Dark Army and their leader; do they have no idea WR is their trade minister?  Do they know, but don't interfere because they ultimately support or don't care about her activity?  Do they encourage or support her in whatever her end goal is (or what they think it is?)?  I'd have liked the finale to show more of a glimmer of what WR is ultimately planning, because she and her ticking clock schtick and cryptic long-term master scheme are the most interesting things in the show to me- along with knowing Elliot's involvement and own true self.

Edited September 23, 2016 by hincandenza

[possibilities]

34 minutes ago, kat165 said:

Shapeshifter, I'd love it if Dom was the mole for WhiteRose. That would make her more interesting, at least for me. But I didn't get the sense from her when they were touring his/her closet that they'd met before.

Dom could know WhiteRose but not know the same person is the male Chinese whoever.

Also, it's possible that, whatever is or is not on the board, Dom did not show Darlene all the info they have. I frankly think she would never show her as much as she did.

ECorp gathering the paper records to reconstruct them doesn't make sense to me. First of all, they couldn't possibly be stupid enough to once again collect their data into a non-backed up single location, whatever the format. Second, they don't want to rebuild the system, they want hegemony through REPLACING the old system through establishing their new e-coin, right? Why would they try, essentially, to undo the hack after making it clear they are actually grateful for it and don't want it fixed?

I am curious about why Tyrell adores Elliot, and how they know each other-- it seemed like more than a recent meeting over the project. Tyrell knows about Elliot's "forgetfulness" and it seemed like when Elliot gave him the poem, it was a reference to Tyrell's childhood as well.

I don't mind a layered mystery but I do feel like the show is bordering on dicking us around at this point. Suspense and surprises can be taken too far.

[Milaxx]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

ECorp gathering the paper records to reconstruct them doesn't make sense to me. First of all, they couldn't possibly be stupid enough to once again collect their data into a non-backed up single location, whatever the format. Second, they don't want to rebuild the system, they want hegemony through REPLACING the old system through establishing their new e-coin, right? Why would they try, essentially, to undo the hack after making it clear they are actually grateful for it and don't want it fixed?

Price is arrogant enough to believe he can control the data. Especially since the world is in such chaos right now that they think people aren't paying attention. Remember Price has called himself both a god and a mercenary.

1 hour ago, Cardie said:

LOL. Perhaps this is proof that Whiterose eventually invents that time travel device and can thus be in two places at the same time.

I think he just combines visits. After she went and peed on the guy's grave she met with Price the following day as Zheng.  

Edited September 23, 2016 by Milaxx

[scrb]

What exactly were the Wellicks' original goals?

Tyrell was suppose to ascend the corporate ladder, got stopped hard when they couldn't run their game on the Knowles and Tyrell freaks out and kills her.

Now Tyrell, if he's real, is all about destroying records (and how does this help White Rose?) which are presumably key assets of E Corp.  

Meanwhile, Joanna has been playing the long game, screwing for months a key witness who could exonerate Tyrell, get him to love her so she could get him to change his testimony.  And she somehow knew Knowles would be trying to play mind games with her until she could egg him on to beat her (or maybe it was foreplay)?

Given what the FBI believes, Tyrell has a lot more to worry about than the murder of Mrs. Knowles.

[green]

9 hours ago, Milaxx said:

That was also a flashback of what happened during the missing 3 days post 5/9 hack. Mallek's performance makes it clear Mr.Robot and not Elliot is running the show.

I thought that scene in Tyrell's SUV was a flashback to right before the hack.  Tyrell discovered Elliot's little hack and confronts him at Coney Island wanting in but when seemingly rejected threatening to tell on him which makes Elliot tell him to analyze this and see it would be a stupid move on Tyrell's part.

BTW thanks for that link.  Maybe that will stop people spending a year of their life waiting for Season 3 still trying to figure out if Tyrell is real or in Elliot's head.  Either in the past or now. 

I also found interesting what Esmail said as to why Tyrell and Elliot feel a bond with each other which several people here mentioned wondering about.  I did too.  At the same time he brought out something I never saw anyone including myself mention here to to my knowledge.  That Mr Robot is not in any way shape or form like Elliot's real dad and it is for a reason. 

Quoting just a very brief section so as not to break any copyright rules and putting it in spoiler tags in case people here would rather guess rather than know the two answers to the two issues I just mentioned (Tyrell's bond to Elliot and Mr Robot vs real Dad) instead of knowing what Esmail said:

Spoiler

ESMAIL: "... when Tyrell tells this story about his father and not wanting to be like him. That resonates with Elliot, and Elliot at the time was Mr. Robot. The way we’ve presented Elliot’s real dad in the past, he was nothing like the Mr. Robot we see in Elliot’s split personality. And it’s a rebellion against everything Elliot’s dad was — a guy who was too weak to fight back against everything Evil Corp was. And Mr. Robot, the side of Elliot’s personality, connected with Tyrell’s rebellion against his father, the fathers they felt were too weak for them. There’s a real bond that formed there. In the end, when Tyrell shot him, he didn’t want to shoot him. He felt like this was a partnership that was on the verge of victory that they were going to complete this Stage Two. And Elliot was going back on it. When he shot him, he was literally in tears. That conversation when he tells Angela that he loves him, it’s true. From Tyrell’s perspective, he really does loves this person. He feels that he gives him the fulfillment that he’s always been looking for in his life."

Adding the link Milaxx gave so no one has to scroll around looking for the full Variety interview with Sam Esmail.

4 hours ago, Milaxx said:

I thought after this week it was pretty clear that Tyrell was a real person and alive and kicking.  For me the simplest check point is when police were after Tryell for Sharon Knowles murder. His face was plastered all over the new media, including in the prison where Elliot was. However in this article Sam Esmail verifies that not only is Tyrell a real person, but his is indeed alive.

 

4 hours ago, Ottis said:

What the hell is this show about anymore? A poorly thought out, failed hack and an attempt to make it stick? Does anyone care? Tyrell, Angela, whatever. There is no suspense. Anything can mean anything, or nothing. Weirdness for the sake of being weird. Close to checking out.

You might want to check out that link above. This show is very much well thought out.  In the interview Esmail also likened Season 2 to the python speech Dom gave in the finale.  This season is mainly setting up for Season 3.  Esmail is playing the long game.

4 hours ago, possibilities said:

ECorp gathering the paper records to reconstruct them doesn't make sense to me. First of all, they couldn't possibly be stupid enough to once again collect their data into a non-backed up single location, whatever the format. Second, they don't want to rebuild the system, they want hegemony through REPLACING the old system through establishing their new e-coin, right? Why would they try, essentially, to undo the hack after making it clear they are actually grateful for it and don't want it fixed?

I am curious about why Tyrell adores Elliot, and how they know each other ...

 

Again, answer in spoiler here and in full interview by following the link.

And I'm totally with you why it makes no sense to bring all the paper back-up together in one place where they are vulnerable unless they made duplicate copies of all of them first .  Unless Price too wants them destroyed because, like you say, he really doesn't want to rebuild his database.  So Mr Robot/Tyrell/Whiterose/Dark Army might actually be doing him a favor with Phase 2.  Well unless he is in the actual Evil Corp building when it goes kaboom kaboom.

Edited September 23, 2016 by green

[tankgirl73]

"Tankgirl73, I think in this episode it was revealed that Elliot is not sure if Tyrell is an alter, but the audience was shown that he is real. If this is correct, some of the times Elliot sees Tyrell may not be real. Anyone else see it this way or can explain why this interpretation is wrong?"

While it's an interesting idea, hasn't Elliott only seen Tyrell just the once since the hack? I think we'd have to assume that all instances of Tyrell pre-hack were real -- there are witnesses, etc. He was physically in the fun society building (whether he got shot or was given the gun, either way) at the time of the hack. And if he were at that point in time sometimes only in Elliott's head, then *Elliott* would have been the one saying "we've talked about this" while real Tyrell says "wtf you talkin about dude".

Post-hack, Elliott sees Tyrell in the taxi, and then they go directly to this building where Tyrell shows him the blueprints and all the plans and then shoots him. While it happens over more than one episode, it's all one 'event'. So for this entire sequence, Tyrell is either real or he's not.

I know that apparently Esmail is saying he's real, but I don't necessarily view that as definitive. He's mostly talking about why they have (had?) such a strong connection, but that's true whether he's currently dead or alive. Then he says Tyrell was crying when he shot Elliott... but does he actually say the words "Tyrell is alive and not a figment of Elliott's mind"? If not, I can still warp my brain into believing he's fudging the truth. "Elliott's Tyrell personality was crying over having to shoot Elliott/themselves".

After all, mid-season 1, what was Esmail saying about Mr Robot? I honestly don't know, this is a sincere question heh. But I would wager that if we went back and re-analyzed any commentary he made at the time, we'd find very careful phrasing that leads us to believe Mr Robot was a real person which is of course later shown to be utterly false.

Also: ROFL at the idea that White Rose's presence in both China and the US at too-frequent intervals means she eventually (or already!) developed time travel!! :D :D :D

Finally: I love the recap's analysis of the show as poetry. That totally nails it. Not all of it is "plot". Much of it is just imagery. Mood-setting, through visuals and aural cues... or just SPACE. Space to breathe, space to think, space to just be. That's one of the things that was so great about Breaking Bad, its use of non-plot-related visuals to establish poetic moods and a sense of the space. Sometimes wide open, sometimes cramped, often symbolic, sometimes simply aesthetic. I love the artsy composition of the shots.

That being said, I agree that the scenes with Dom do tend to drag. I don't mind that they're not "advancing the plot" or that they're "grinding the action to a halt" etc. I think I get what they're trying to do. But I still don't really like them. I just don't 'get' her, I feel nothing for her, I care nothing for her. I think it's a case of, I know what they're trying to do with her and her composition but I don't think they succeeded with it.

[Milaxx]

I guess I'm in the minority because I figured out fairly early on that Mr. Robot was in Elliot's head. I think by the time he pushed himself off the pier. It just seems pretty clear to me Tyrell is alive. For me part of the charm of the show is the poetic style. It ask you to not look at the obvious, but to note the surroundings. The downside is that I think now people are expecting tricks and deceit when there is none. It's pointless to spend the next year continuing to debate whether Tyrell is real or not. 

Just a bit of clarification; I'm not sure if Price's reason for gathering the paper backups was to destroy them. I think that he felt the rest of the world was suitably preoccupied that he could gather them together and no one would notice and/or stop him. The point for him was that he would have them and be in control of them.

[Misstify]

16 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

For me part of the charm of the show is the poetic style.

I definitely agree on that.

I certainly won't spend the next year thinking about/debating whether Tyrell is real; I'm open to anything and enjoying the story.  But I do like thinking about all the possibilities.  Here's one more:  Tyrell died, but then was replaced in some way.  So he's real, AND he died.  Why does my mind even go there?  Probably because of the "previously" and opening scene which both showed Mr. Robot/Elliot saying "You're dead wrong" (so I heard that phrase twice as the episode began) and because of previous speculation about Angela's change in demeanor and Whiter0se saying Angela should be dead by now.   (Of course, "you're dead wrong" could also be a nod to us viewers...no matter what theories we come up with, we're wrong!).

[SailorGirl]

13 hours ago, SimoneS said:

At the end of last season, I thought that Elliot killed Tyrell after he forced him to set everything in motion. I still think that is the more likely scenario.

They touched on this -- Tyrell said, "when you gave me this gun, you said use it to stop anyone who stands in our way. . . " Elliot/Mr. Robot gave the gun to Wellick, he didn't shoot him.

Edited September 23, 2016 by SailorGirl

[Milaxx]

7 hours ago, green said:

 

16 hours ago, Milaxx said:

That was also a flashback of what happened during the missing 3 days post 5/9 hack. Mallek's performance makes it clear Mr.Robot and not Elliot is running the show.

I thought that scene in Tyrell's SUV was a flashback to right before the hack.  Tyrell discovered Elliot's little hack and confronts him at Coney Island wanting in but when seemingly rejected threatening to tell on him which makes Elliot tell him to analyze this and see it would be a stupid move on Tyrell's part.

 

Just caught this. You're correct. It was the lead up to them go to the arcade and launching the hack.

[shapeshifter]

On September 23, 2016 at 1:10 AM, scrb said:

What exactly were the Wellicks' original goals?

Tyrell was suppose to ascend the corporate ladder, got stopped hard when they couldn't run their game on the Knowles and Tyrell freaks out and kills her.

Now Tyrell, if he's real, is all about destroying records (and how does this help White Rose?) which are presumably key assets of E Corp.  

Meanwhile, Joanna has been playing the long game, screwing for months a key witness who could exonerate Tyrell, get him to love her so she could get him to change his testimony.  And she somehow knew Knowles would be trying to play mind games with her until she could egg him on to beat her (or maybe it was foreplay)?

Given what the FBI believes, Tyrell has a lot more to worry about than the murder of Mrs. Knowles.

It's possible Joanna will go to the authorities and use her wounds to get back at Knowles. Disclaimer: I watch too many crime shows.

Edited September 26, 2016 by shapeshifter
typo

[marcee]

This whole thing comes back to White Rose and the Washington Township plant/project and what all this has to do with Elliot (and possibly Angela) and why it matters so much. Was Washington Township the first step in destroying E Corp - was that the end game? Or is destroying E Corp a step in a bigger plan that results in the "solution" to whatever the Washington Township Project began? Or is destroying E Corp unrelated? Maybe it's just a reward for Elliot - who is an integral part in the Washington Township project?

Edited September 23, 2016 by marcee
To add another option

[AliShibaz]

12 hours ago, Ottis said:

What the hell is this show about anymore? A poorly thought out, failed hack and an attempt to make it stick? Does anyone care? Tyrell, Angela, whatever. There is no suspense. Anything can mean anything, or nothing. Weirdness for the sake of being weird. Close to checking out.

Anything can mean nothing or nothing can mean anything.  I must admit that I find myself in agreement with you.

 I really enjoyed the beginning of this show where Elliot was using his great intelligence and knowledge and skill to dispense justice to so many of the people in his life that he felt truly deserved some punishment.  I know that it's not really correct for individuals to engage in "vigilante justice". But, in the context of a fantasy TV show, that was the main reason I loved this show. I could live vicariously through Elliot because I have spent my life creating computer software and often dreamed of  using my abilities for all kinds of nefarious purposes. They were all just dreams but isn't that one of the reasons people like to watch  TV?  So they can dream without causing any harm?

For example, the pedophile who ran an Internet cafe in the first episode.  It felt so good to think people could use their "nerd-type" skills and experiences to dispense justice that way. Also, the man who was cheating on Krysta.  She seemed like truly a good and caring person. She sure didn't seem to deserve having her life turned into shambles by that guy. It felt so good to see  Elliot dispense his brand of justice to that guy. I thought that much of this show would proceed along those lines and I was a big fan.

But then, it didn't proceed along those lines. AAMOF, it didn't seem to proceed along any lines that I could discern.  I have to admit the possibility the problem may be I'm just not bright enough to understand his advanced artistic messages.

Perhaps at some point, someone will explain just what is going on in a way I can understand and then ... I'll be able to watch the show in its entirety and put them into some context that I can enjoy. But until then, I think I better just leave the commentary to those people who feel comfortable with it.

I sincerely wish you all the very best and hope some day I will be able to understand and enjoy this show again.  The actors sure are terrific. I have very much enjoyed all their performances with very only one or two exceptions.  For me, the only serious disappointment is Grace Gummer. But I don't want to start finding fault with her since the odds are that I could easily be wrong about my opinions of her acting.

Edited September 23, 2016 by AliShibaz

[nameless slob]

18 hours ago, Milaxx said:

Mallek's performance makes it clear Mr.Robot and not Elliot is running the show.

I agree, I was also thinking about that: maybe the "dominant" personality is, and have always been, Mr. Robot. And suddently, recently, Elliot started to pop up here and there on Mr. Robot. Like Mr. Robot's conscience of the repercutions of those extreme actions. Remember maybe the first or second episode, of season one, when Elliot was fixing a hack on ECorp, and he read a file that said "keep me here", or something? Elliot wasn't aware of Mr. Robot's presence, but Mr. Robot was already aware of Elliot's presence, and his moral compass, and that is why he warned him of not taking the file away.

I don't understand about multiple personalities and how it works, but that is the most fascinating aspect of the show, for me. How Elliot/Mr. Robot navigates the idea of trying to become aware of each other. In a recent episode, I think 11, Elliot puts himself as the observer watching Mr. Robot do his thing. He was following Mr. Robot up till he gets in the cab, where he IS Mr. Robot and suddently Mr. Robot was taken over by Elliot. Everything about that lucid dream was fascinating.

I was also thinking about Dom interrogating Darlene. I don't think she will be able to turn her, even though Darlene was stupid and keeps talking. I think Darlene, when she saw that room with FBI's investigation on the Dark Army, she was blow away about the long term plan, with Phase II and all, since she was unaware of the final objective. If anything, I think it will make her stronger about keeping quiet in the interrogation, since she saw how the Dark Army and Elliot are aiming for something so bigger then she expected, and that can change the world.

I had a feeling that, when she saw the room and said "You gotta be kidding me", she was astonished about Tyrell being part of it. 

I think Darlene knows Tyrell and knows some type of history about Tyrell and Elliot and she was shocked they are working together.

I think those relationships with come together in season 3.

[Chaos Theory]

This is just a guess but I think the sides are changing.  Angela firmly on team Robot and a Darlene on team FBI.   

I think Dom did persuade Darkene that she was important and that will be enough to get her on her side at least until the wind shifts again.

[DrSpaceman73]

I am supremely confused about this whole season and what has happened, will openly admit it.  It seems much more confusing than season one.  it was confusing but coherent in retrospect.  This season was kind of all over the place, seems they are trying at times too hard to be esoteric

I will have to rewatch the season I think to have a better idea of how it all fits together. 

The FBI board at the end though is quite revealing.  And there are many ways to interpret Elliot being shot at the end.  Still doesn't convince me about the legitimacy of Tyrell

[gibasi]

I am done with this show.  I like science fiction and I am an English major.  But this is just painful for me.  The show has become insufferable in its quest to be so dark, edgy, and god knows what else-Maybe Art with a capital  A? I think it is pretentious and a bore.  

[Misstify]

15 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

It seems much more confusing than season one.  it was confusing but coherent in retrospect. 

Agreed.  Season one was about the big hack, and uncovering Elliot's mental issues.  But having additional seasons of the show means more story is needed; personally, I think a story about the aftermath of 5/9, and how it didn't pan out quite the way Darlene and f.society hoped, would have been a good story in itself (with maybe the FBI hunting for them).  Elliot being in prison for part of the season could have worked fine with that too.  

The stuff with Angela joining E Corp, Tyrell vanishing, Joanna scheming with her chauffeur, and something mysterious and super-important in Washington Township is all a bit over the top.   And while I enjoy puzzling through it, I'm not sure I really believe it will all come together into a fully cohesive story.

[dancer]

4 hours ago, SailorGirl said:

They touched on this -- Tyrell said, "when you gave me this gun, you said use it to stop anyone who stands in our way. . . " Elliot/Mr. Robot gave the gun to Wellick, he didn't shoot him.

Is it not possible that Elliott as Mr. Robot shot and killed the actual Wellick, then Wellick became a 3rd personality of Elliot, then Mr. Robot "gave" the gun to that 3rd personality of himself with the instructions to use it?  Then the Wellick personality shoots Elliott, essentially Elliott shooting himself (as he choked himself before)?

[Milaxx]

9 hours ago, marcee said:

This whole thing comes back to White Rose and the Washington Township plant/project and what all this has to do with Elliot (and possibly Angela) and why it matters so much. Was Washington Township the first step in destroying E Corp - was that the end game? Or is destroying E Corp a step in a bigger plan that results in the "solution" to whatever the Washington Township Project began? Or is destroying E Corp unrelated? Maybe it's just a reward for Elliot - who is an integral part in the Washington Township project?

The way I see it the second option is the most likely one. In the Alf episode the commercial for Ecorp says they've been around since 1884. That makes me think destroying Ecorp is end game but Washington Township plays a key role somehow.

10 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

19 hours ago, scrb said:

What exactly were the Wellicks' original goals?

Tyrell was suppose to ascend the corporate ladder, got stopped hard when they couldn't run their game on the Knowles and Tyrell freaks out and kills her.

Now Tyrell, if he's real, is all about destroying records (and how does this help White Rose?) which are presumably key assets of E Corp.  

Meanwhile, Joanna has been playing the long game, screwing for months a key witness who could exonerate Tyrell, get him to love her so she could get him to change his testimony.  And she somehow knew Knowles would be trying to play mind games with her until she could egg him on to beat her (or maybe it was foreplay)?

Given what the FBI believes, Tyrell has a lot more to worry about than the murder of Mrs. Knowles.

It's possible Joanna will go to the authority and use her wounds to get back at Knowles. Disclaimer: I watch too many crime shows.

I got the impression that Wellick & Joanna had someone powerful like Whiterose backing them and encouraging Tyrell to climb the corporate ladder, telling him it was his destiny to be CTO and/or possibly one day run Ecorp. However in actuality I think he was merely a pawn to distract from Elliot, this lowly IT engineer who would take down E corp from the inside. So while Price and Knowles could gleefully fire Tyrell thinking they were winning, Elliot was in there hacking and plotting to bring down the company. I think what changed is Tyrell meeting Elliot or more specifically, Mr.Robot. Whatever the plan is, Mr. Robot has shared that with Tyrell I think it has turned him into a an acolyte of Elliot/Mr.Robot.

Odd as their relationship may be, Tyrell and Joanna are devoted to each other and will always do "whatever is necessary" to that end. So yeah, Joanna's played the long game as a way of clearing Tyrell's name.

 

I do find it interesting that many people have so many different takes on the show. I've had people say it was an exploration of mental illness. Others a take of hackers in the social media age. While I can agree this season has gotten more complicated, I still see everything as a progression of season 1 and a further exploration of that world. I do watch each episode at least twice, but I haven't had trouble following any of the plots and storylines. I wish more people loved it as I do, because I find it enjoyable to discuss the many nuances and things happening.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Milaxx

[dancer]

23 hours ago, hincandenza said:

I think something interesting about the FBI's surprising competence (did Dom they say they'd been working for "years"?  I missed that; I'd have thought f.society was only on their radar for the last few months, and then jumped to "6,000" agents when 5/9 occurred) is that if you look closely at the composite wall chart (thanks to Reddit) Elliot is not identified as a member of f.soceity, and it seems they have him there as "previously incarcerated", and mostly meaningful because his sister is in f.society and he knows Angela and Tyrell.  So it looks like they have Darlene and the others pegged completely, but oddly don't seem to think her brother is a major player- much less the ringleader.  Also missing from the chart are WhiteRose and even Price in the "E-Corp" section.

I am not sure I agree that Elliot is not identified by FIB as a member of f.society.  In addition to a line from Elliot to his sister, they have a separate arrow from Elliot to f.society.  They certainly know Angela works at ECorp and that she worked at AllSafe, but they do not have her in those boxes but rather in the middle with arrows to ECorp and AllSafe, in same manner as arrow from Elliot to f.society (and for that matter Tyrell to ECorp and f.society).  (They are missing an arrow from Elliot directly to AllSafe, so definitely missing some things in this chart)

[Milaxx]

I think I may have initially incorrectly said the FBI had been on the case for years. Rewatching I noticed that Dom's boss says they have been working this case for 3 mths. The chart is obviously incomplete. However it seems like they are assuming that either fsociety works for Elliot or they are wondering what the connection is Elliot and for that matter Tryell. It seems to me the current thought is that fsociety is the vigilantly hackers doing nuisance stuff, but the real masterminds are Elliot and Tyrell.

[Chaos Theory]

I guess this episode proves once again to each is own in a major way.  I finally got around to reading everyone's posts and boy are people getting frustrated trying to figure everything out.  Me I am just enjoying the story.  I was getting kinda bored this season but the finale has me back in in a seriously major way.  I don't need to dissect every aspect of the show but then I guess...to each is own.

I am so in though.

[green]

15 hours ago, SailorGirl said:

They touched on this -- Tyrell said, "when you gave me this gun, you said use it to stop anyone who stands in our way. . . " Elliot/Mr. Robot gave the gun to Wellick, he didn't shoot him.

And to add to this remember we never ever saw Elliot shoot Tyrell at all if only in his mind.  We only saw him reach for the popcorn gun then fade to black.  Nothing else.  The whole "idea" he might have even possibly shot him was because Mr Robot was getting alarmed Elliot was trying to phone Tyrell in his fantasyland version of prison and Mr Robot tries to stop him by telling him that Elliot killed him.  Mr Robot lied to him to stop him trying to find Tyrell for Mr Robot's own agenda.  How anyone could take any of this and turn it into thinking Elliot actually had shot Tyrell is beyond me.  They stopped the damn scene where he was reaching for the popcorn gun at that point to make it clear he didn't shoot Tyrell.  They just wanted to plant a red herring which has by now grown into a mega-school of herrings I guess.

10 hours ago, Milaxx said:

I do find it interesting that many people have so many different takes on the show. I've had people say it was an exploration of mental illness. Others a take of hackers in the social media age. While I can agree this season has gotten more complicated, I still see everything as a progression of season 1 and a further exploration of that world. I do watch each episode at least twice, but I haven't had trouble following any of the plots and storylines. I wish more people loved it as I do, because I find it enjoyable to disgust the many nuances and things happening.

Yeah I read the review here about it being a tonal poem and immediately thought well that is what it is for an English lit major.  But not remotely what it is for a computer geek.  Or for a history nerd.  Or a mental illness specialist.  Or a metaphysical tripper.  Or a sci-fi enthusiast.  Or a conspiracy theorist gone wild.  It is like the blind men and the elephant.  It's the tusks, no the tail, no the trunk etc.  It's an ink blot test into our own pov in the end.  I'm not a English lit major so I'll never see it as a tonal poem ever.  So I see it through my colored glasses of several of the categories above ... though hopefully not the tin-foiled hat group, heh.  So I think there is no definitive one answer to what this show is in the end; it is all our answers.  That's why it is so much of a fun show.

10 hours ago, dancer said:

Is it not possible that Elliott as Mr. Robot shot and killed the actual Wellick, then Wellick became a 3rd personality of Elliot, then Mr. Robot "gave" the gun to that 3rd personality of himself with the instructions to use it?  Then the Wellick personality shoots Elliott, essentially Elliott shooting himself (as he choked himself before)?

It is possible but it didn't happen.  Esmail straight out has said Tyrell is alive and shot Elliot and is upset that he had to because he loves him.  He said Tyrell wasn't lying to Angela when he said that on the phone to her.  So no it isn't possible in the Sam Esmail produced version.  But  I suppose it could be possible in some fan fiction version.  But I never read that stuff. 

But I did read the Esmail interview linked above and see no evidence that Esmail is trying to lie to us in that interview.  On the contrary he wants people to know what is happening.  But he is approaching it on screen through Elliot's less than clued-in pov thus what we think at times might just reflect Elliot's confusion.  So for awhile Elliot believed Mr Robot that he killed Tyrell because he did have the memory of reaching for the popcorn gun though nothing further after that.  So he accepted Mr Robot's version until he slowly learned the truth when he actually met the still living and breathing Tyrell and Tyrell was forced to shoot him under orders from Elliot himself.  And Esmail confirmed the phone call between the living real Tyrell and Angela was real too.

But from what I got from the Esmail interview is he doesn't purposely mislead the viewer just to screw with us per se.  He wants what is happening to be revealed to us as Elliot slowly uncovers it since we, his imaginary friend, are following his journey in life in all of this.  Now to make the plot happen he does have to show non-Elliot scenes and so we start to get other characters' pov's too and get advanced wind you might say ahead of Elliot on certain points.  But Elliot is still central to uncovering the whole reality slowly.  And he is has a lot of figuring left to figure all that out at this point.

Edited September 24, 2016 by green

[Cardie]

20 hours ago, kat165 said:

Thanks, Milaxx, for reminding me that Angela, Darlene and Krista all know he sees his father but not to what extent

Does Tyrell know, I wonder. The fact that Elliot wrote of the Red Wheelbarrow in his journal indicates that he does remember some of what transpired between him-as-Mr. Robot and Tyrell--unless MR was the person who wrote that.

Symbolically, Esmail does seem to be concentrating on two sets of central avatars. Elliot, Mr. Robot, and Tyrell all have felt oppression by global capital and want to bring it down, Elliot as a saboteur, Mr. Robot as a violent anarchist, and Tyrell as a defector turned cultist. The three women, Angela, Darlene and Dom, are lonely Jersey girls looking for respect and justice, Angela by infiltrating the corporate world, Darlene by joining fsociety, and Dom by becoming a government agent. Then there are three institutional baddies who may not be what they seem, Dom's boss Santiago of the US government, Price the corporate exec, and Zhang/Whiterose, the foreign adversary big wig.

IOW, there are a lot more trinities on hand here.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Cardie

[Milaxx]

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I guess this episode proves once again to each is own in a major way.  I finally got around to reading everyone's posts and boy are people getting frustrated trying to figure everything out.  Me I am just enjoying the story.  I was getting kinda bored this season but the finale has me back in in a seriously major way.  I don't need to dissect every aspect of the show but then I guess...to each is own.

I am so in though.

I find it fascinating and I have loved every minute of this season. I love that Sam & co have planted Easter eggs into the show.   I read this article earlier today.  It has one of the better captures of the FBI wall. It missing quite a bit of info, but I could see Darlene maybe thinking 1.) The FBI has a lot of info on them, and 2.) Reinforce the fact that she's not special. She thought she and Elliot were in this together and that she was the Elliot's only connect to the Dark Army & therefore vital to hack, but the chart shows that's not the case. This whole thing is far bigger something the 5 of them cooked up in an abandoned arcade.

A few things I noticed; 

They don't know what Trenton looks like. They have a place holder in her spot. However,clearly Whiterose knows what she looks like since she sent Leon to find them. Under most pictures is an ID # but under Darlene's is an IP address (192.251.68.246) that leads to a file folder. Only the 2 links in the middle are active and from what I can figure out they're just shells for Playstation games.  It was enough to remind me that Darlene copied something off of Angela's computer that time she went to her apartment. I may rewatch and see if  can figure out what.

28 minutes ago, Cardie said:

Does Tyrell know, I wonder.

I don't think so. 

Edited September 24, 2016 by Milaxx

[Milaxx]

33 minutes ago, Cardie said:

I wonder. The fact that Elliot wrote of the Red Wheelbarrow in his journal indicates that he does remember some of what transpired between him-as-Mr. Robot and Tyrell--unless MR was the person who wrote that.

I think the red wheelbarrow was just Elliot's subconscious way of remembering something important. Sort of like when you need to pee in your sleep and you dream of a waterfall. 

[DrSpaceman73]

6 hours ago, gibasi said:

I am done with this show.  I like science fiction and I am an English major.  But this is just painful for me.  The show has become insufferable in its quest to be so dark, edgy, and god knows what else-Maybe Art with a capital  A? I think it is pretentious and a bore.  

I am not quite to that point because I still think some of the scenes are so well done and interesting, individually. 

But as a whole, yes, I can see you would have that view. 

That is the view I eventually had of Lost.  I know many people just loved that show, but to me it became a huge mess as they expanded it and added more stories and were just all over the place with things.  And I loved the first few seasons of Lost.

I fear this show is headed in the same direction. 

What keeps me in right now, at the end of season two, is I get the broad strokes of it all.  FBI is closing in, Ecorp has not really been hurt by what happened and in fact is actually using it to become even MORE powerful, which I do think is intersting, Elloit is struggling to figure our the truth with Tyrell.  So at the end of the season I know what is going on, but the details elude me.  Plus there seems to be more to the hackers plan, so it has potential for back and forth between ecorp and the hackers with the FBI as an outside force working to close in on the hackers. 

[DrSpaceman73]

Also the FBI chart reveal reminded me of Alias when Sydney is brought into the CIA and asked to draw what her view was of the enemy chart, then they revealed what they had and she realized how much more broader and deeper the organization was than she realized. 

[green]

I noticed earlier and this capture even more clearly the list of 5 people the FBI want to interview on the top left of the board.  Who is Xander Jones (the top one crossed out)?  Was in the DC FBI hack lead that Cisco found in Susan's house and they took to the hospital?  It isn't Mobley's real name because he is pictured elsewhere and there is a separate placeholder for Xander.

Then they have a Shama Biswas listed.  Could that be Trenton's real name maybe?  I see her placeholder so they don't know what she looks like but maybe they got her real name anyway?

The bottom three names they want for interviews are major: Darlene, Angela and Elliot.  And of course they have Darlene now for more than a mere interview at this point.  But they seem to want to interview Angela again.  And this is the first time we see not only do they know of Elliot but they are actively wanting to interview him asap.  So it seems both are on the FBI's "to do" list sooner than later.

On the far right cut off here but seen in another screen cap we can see noted on Romero's death where they think he was accidentally killed (like yeah there are no accidents in Whiterose's world) by that "stray bullet" from a neighbor.  But what is of slight interest is bullet point #4 on their hand written list said that he had no known link to f.society.  So the FBI missed that totally.

And no Joanna that I could see but since they had Tyrell as the main central picture on that board thought to be the 5/9 mastermind you would think they would really start looking into what his wife is up to.  It wouldn't take much to uncover that she is one weird woman.

And though the Dark Army is known to them; like other people have said ... no trace of Whiterose on that board.  Just Ollie the Mastermind ... hahah.

Edited September 24, 2016 by green

[Milaxx]

Xander is the rich guy Darlene slept with. It was his gun she stole & hid in the popcorn machine

[queenanne]

I agree with those who think we need to put a pin in speculation that Tyrell is Elliot's alter.  Not only does Joanna call Elliot "Ollie" (if he were really her husband, would she be doing so ironically?), but folks have pointed out that Tyrell walks around ECorp first season and interacts more than once with folks who aren't Elliot, and then again with Elliot himself, while other folks are in the room. Whether or not Elliot "sees Tyrell who-isn't-present", I'm less firm on; but I can't imagine that it's Esmail's wish or plan that people think any time Elliot is on stage, that both he and all events and characters surrounding him, must perforce all be deemed guilty of being fiction unless proven innocent of it.

ETA:  Not to mention Dom's FBI chart, with photographs of all three men as we know them (Ollie, Elliot, Tyrell).

Edited September 24, 2016 by queenanne

[Milaxx]

1 hour ago, queenanne said:

I agree with those who think we need to put a pin in speculation that Tyrell is Elliot's alter.  Not only does Joanna call Elliot "Ollie" (if he were really her husband, would she be doing so ironically?), but folks have pointed out that Tyrell walks around ECorp first season and interacts more than once with folks who aren't Elliot, and then again with Elliot himself, while other folks are in the room. Whether or not Elliot "sees Tyrell who-isn't-present", I'm less firm on; but I can't imagine that it's Esmail's wish or plan that people think any time Elliot is on stage, that both he and all events and characters surrounding him, must perforce all be deemed guilty of being fiction unless proven innocent of it.

ETA:  Not to mention Dom's FBI chart, with photographs of all three men as we know them (Ollie, Elliot, Tyrell).

Elliot even goes to Ecorp looking for Tyrell and asks Tyrell's secretary where is he. 

[thuganomics85]

Yikes, a lot of stuff to take in.  Taking everything at face value, Tyrell is basically alive, was in hiding, and "Phase 2" was hacking E-Corp's building where they were storing all their information (thanks to the first attack making them move it), and blow it all up in one fell swoop.  And it was cooked up by Mr. Robot himself.  So, naturally, Elliot freaks out and tries to stop it, Tyrell pulls out the gun, Elliot thinks he is another person in his head, and.... he gets shot.  Ouch!  And then Tyrell calls Angela who is all hiding in the shadows and seems to almost be the one running the show now.  Yeah, I got nothing.  Crazy!

No surprise, Darlene did survive the shoot-out, but is now with the FBI.  She tried to play tough at first, but it looks like Dom might be turning her, after she shows Darlene just how much information the FBI already has on them, and it looks like it is pretty extensive.

Looks like Joanna is all about the long con!  She confronts Scott and then purposely pisses him off and gets herself beat up.  But it turns out her boyfriend was actually a bartender who was working the night Tyrell murdered Scott's wife, and her plan is to have him basically set-up Scott for his wife's murder.  She really does scare me more then Tyrell.  And I love her for it.  She is so stone-cold that she doesn't even flinch when she finds out the wife was pregnant.

Mobley and Trenton are alive!  Only to met by a newly freed Leon asking if they had the time.  Uh oh?!

That little dig/playful ribbing at Burn Notice and "blue skies" bit was a bit on the nose there.

This season felt like it was much harder to follow then the first one, but I mainly enjoyed it.

Edited September 24, 2016 by thuganomics85

[Cardie]

Once the season was over, it made perfect sense. I'm just not sure that sense was getting us anywhere. Still the images and spectacular set pieces make this nothing like anything else on television. Better me than that blue skies/characters welcome pablum you used to serve up, Esmail tells us and his USA bosses.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, queenanne said:

I agree with those who think we need to put a pin in speculation that Tyrell is Elliot's alter.  Not only does Joanna call Elliot "Ollie" (if he were really her husband, would she be doing so ironically?), but folks have pointed out that Tyrell walks around ECorp first season and interacts more than once with folks who aren't Elliot, and then again with Elliot himself, while other folks are in the room. Whether or not Elliot "sees Tyrell who-isn't-present", I'm less firm on; but I can't imagine that it's Esmail's wish or plan that people think any time Elliot is on stage, that both he and all events and characters surrounding him, must perforce all be deemed guilty of being fiction unless proven innocent of it.

ETA:  Not to mention Dom's FBI chart, with photographs of all three men as we know them (Ollie, Elliot, Tyrell).

It's really up to Esmail how many alters Elliot will have, as well as if those alters are dead, living, or fictional (within Elliot's world) personalities. I think at this point it's possible (even if unlikely) that Tyrell is both alive and sometimes in Elliot's head. I wonder if the ubiquitious online chatter on this topic will in any way influence Esmail's story going further.