Lorelai Gilmore: The 10(+) Things I Hate About You

[Pam Poovey]

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

 

I would have had more respect for Lorelai if she just accepted that she agreed with Emily and set hard and fast rules that Rory couldn't associate with Jess until she believed he was improving his behavior and then, just stayed out of it.

 

 

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

instead of disingenuously trying to lay claim to BFFness, temper tantrums, winning teenage fueds, getting up in Luke's business, helicopter parenting, etc. all at the same time to embarrassing results. 

I'm not a Lorelai hater, but IMO she was at her most dislike-able when she was dealing with Rory's school-age boyfriends. She got involved with Dean in a way which bordered on creepy, asking him on his first date with Rory along with her mother, pining because she didn't get to hear every detail of their first kiss, stalking Dean while he was at work, giving Dean advice on how to win her daughter over when she is clearly more interested in another boy, telling him that THEY didn't have to break up just because he and Rory had, and so on. (That Dean accepted this level of interference in his love life from his girlfriend's mother is quite incredible - I'm sure Rory wouldn't have tolerated any of this from Dean's father!). With Jess, Lorelai acted like a romantic rival, fighting to get her own share of Rory's affection and attention, to the point where she is viciously and childishly pleased to have unfairly run Jess out of town.     

Edited January 5, 2017 by Pam Poovey

[ChlcGirl]

2 hours ago, Pam Poovey said:

I'm guessing there would have been parents who didn't want their children hanging out with teenage Lorelai either, both pre and post pregnancy. You would think she might muster up some sympathy for a bad-but-not-really-bad smart-mouth teen with family troubles and a "I'm too cool and nobody understands me" attitude. Perhaps Jess reminded Lorelai too much of herself, and not in a good way. 

I'd imagine that teenage Lorelai would have been insufferable.  Snarky, rude and always thinking she was just too smart for words.

Ive been around such teenage and my toe fairly ached to give them a swift kick in the tuckus.

[Pam Poovey]

2 minutes ago, ChlcGirl said:

Snarky, rude and always thinking she was just too smart for words.

It's hilarious that Lorelai ached to kick Jess (or throw a cream pie at him) for demonstrating the same insufferably snarky, rude, and thinking he's too smart for words behaviour  that you know Lorelai did ...

[shron17]

2 hours ago, Pam Poovey said:

It's hilarious that Lorelai ached to kick Jess (or throw a cream pie at him) for demonstrating the same insufferably snarky, rude, and thinking he's too smart for words behaviour  that you know Lorelai did ...

May be hilarious, but not at all unusual that those with our same faults bug us the most.  It's just human nature.

[Anela]

On 12/21/2016 at 11:43 PM, huahaha said:

 

On 1/4/2017 at 7:13 PM, Pam Poovey said:

It's hilarious that Lorelai ached to kick Jess (or throw a cream pie at him) for demonstrating the same insufferably snarky, rude, and thinking he's too smart for words behaviour  that you know Lorelai did ...

I've always seen a parallel between the two. Spoiler, from "Seasons":

I didn't like that their attitudes hadn't appeared to change with each other, in the new episodes.

[Eyes High]

On 2017-01-04 at 7:08 PM, ChlcGirl said:

I'd imagine that teenage Lorelai would have been insufferable.  Snarky, rude and always thinking she was just too smart for words.

So...a standard teenager, basically.

Maybe that's why Lorelai is so insufferable. She never grew out of her obnoxious teenager phase.

[Melancholy]

1 hour ago, Anela said:

I've always seen a parallel between the two. Spoiler, from "Seasons":

  Hide contents

I didn't like that their attitudes hadn't appeared to change with each other, in the new episodes.

You don't have to spoiler Revival stuff in these main threads.  

I didn't think Jess's attitude on Lorelai was bad at all in the Revival. I don't know if he came to like her but he was sure being slow to judge and uninterested in bashing when discussing Lorelai ghosting Luke. It wasn't clear if that came from a place of greater respect for Lorelai or Jess trying to be gentle with Luke's feelings. Either way, Jess progressed far more than Lorelai on this score. 

[ChlcGirl]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

So...a standard teenager, basically.

Maybe that's why Lorelai is so insufferable. She never grew out of her obnoxious teenager phase.

I'd say that that bolded sentence can be looked at as the reason behind almost all of Lorelai Gilmore's most exasperating traits.

[Ambrosefolly]

While having Rory at such a young age and then leaving home made Lorelai a bit of a scraper, it probably stunted a lot of her emotional growth as well.

[TimetravellingBW]

On 1/7/2017 at 7:34 AM, Anela said:

I've always seen a parallel between the two. Spoiler, from "Seasons":

  Hide contents

I didn't like that their attitudes hadn't appeared to change with each other, in the new episodes.

On 1/7/2017 at 8:49 AM, Melancholy said:

You don't have to spoiler Revival stuff in these main threads.  

I didn't think Jess's attitude on Lorelai was bad at all in the Revival. I don't know if he came to like her but he was sure being slow to judge and uninterested in bashing when discussing Lorelai ghosting Luke. It wasn't clear if that came from a place of greater respect for Lorelai or Jess trying to be gentle with Luke's feelings. Either way, Jess progressed far more than Lorelai on this score. 

I thought Jess was very respectful regarding Lorelai, especially considering the main thing he heard about her was that she was ditching Luke, but I was confused by Lorelai's attitude towards Jess. She was pretty snarky about him in Winter ("I said with, not at" regarding throwing a football around) and seemed reactive and judgmental in Summer when Rory said Jess gave her the idea for the book, which made me think she still disliked him and was resistant to him having any input into Rory's life. ("Jess? How did he get into this? Oh great I'm looking forward to Jess's take on me.") But then by the end of Fall she was blowing kisses at him? Yet at the same time he seemed wary of sticking around like he wasn't sure he was welcome and she assured him it was ok to stay? It felt like a new, careful kind of dynamic with Lorelai making an effort to be inviting. Did something shift between those two episodes? It almost seemed like there should have been a missing scene between them.

One of things I really wanted in the revival was for Lorelai and Jess to have an actual conversation. In an ideal world one when they clear the air from the past, apologize for treating each other badly in the OS and Lorelai acknowledges how Jess has changed and even helped Rory get back to Yale. At the very least, some shared banter and mocking. But we got nothing - clearly that 20 minute musical was a much better use of screentime. Yes, I will always be bitter.

Edited January 8, 2017 by TimetravellingBW

[Lady Calypso]

39 minutes ago, TimetravellingBW said:

clearly that 20 minute musical was a much better use of screentime. Yes, I will always be bitter.

Me too. But the good news is that I haven't heard ONE person say that they liked the musical. Everyone I know thought it was a waste of time, at best, and an utter piece of shit attempt at art that should have never been created, at worst. 

[Melancholy]

I actually liked the Musical.  I thought it was funny and I really like Sutton Foster and Christian Borle. I have a weakness for musical references. However, sure, I would have preferred good character development time in its place. Especially for Jess and/or Lane. 

I think it's possible that there wasn't even some missing conversation between Lorelai and Jess. It's very possible that an insecure, unhappy Lorelai will badmouth Jess as she did in uncomfortable, embarrassing conversations with Luke in Winter and Rory in Summer. However, a glowing Bride Lorelai in wedding party hostess mode who is feeling righteously fulfilled that she and Luke are combining lives will be so happy and generous feeling that she'd be friendly to Jess and treat him in a familial way. 

[Anela]

9 hours ago, TimetravellingBW said:

I thought Jess was very respectful regarding Lorelai, especially considering the main thing he heard about her was that she was ditching Luke, but I was confused by Lorelai's attitude towards Jess. She was pretty snarky about him in Winter ("I said with, not at" regarding throwing a football around) and seemed reactive and judgmental in Summer when Rory said Jess gave her the idea for the book, which made me think she still disliked him and was resistant to him having any input into Rory's life. ("Jess? How did he get into this? Oh great I'm looking forward to Jess's take on me.") But then by the end of Fall she was blowing kisses at him? Yet at the same time he seemed wary of sticking around like he wasn't sure he was welcome and she assured him it was ok to stay? It felt like a new, careful kind of dynamic with Lorelai making an effort to be inviting. Did something shift between those two episodes? It almost seemed like there should have been a missing scene between them.

One of things I really wanted in the revival was for Lorelai and Jess to have an actual conversation. In an ideal world one when they clear the air from the past, apologize for treating each other badly in the OS and Lorelai acknowledges how Jess has changed and even helped Rory get back to Yale. At the very least, some shared banter and mocking. But we got nothing - clearly that 20 minute musical was a much better use of screentime. Yes, I will always be bitter.

I'm going to have to re-watch, because I don't remember things from the above. I didn't see her blow kisses to him, it was her attitude towards him and what he'd say about her, that had me thinking it was the same old thing between them. 

I did always see parallels between them, though. I've mentioned it before. They have the same snarky attitude about most things, they made the same remarks about the indian food, for example. I think she would have liked him, if he hadn't been rude to her at that first meeting.

[random chance]

Jess was never going to come back from that first encounter, when he sassed her instead of thanking her for her insight and advice. Just like Logan was never really going to come back from helping Rory steal a yacht, even though it was her idea.

I cried laughing throughout the entire musical, I have no idea why.

[shron17]

13 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

But the good news is that I haven't heard ONE person say that they liked the musical. Everyone I know thought it was a waste of time, at best, and an utter piece of shit attempt at art that should have never been created, at worst. 

I liked the musical, maybe because I like Sutton Foster in anything.  The fact that it went on for so long made me wonder it was filling in for scenes that were cut, maybe because more sets were needed.  From early spoilers it sounded like both Jess and April were slated for more screen time.  Sure, more character development is always good but overall I was satisfied with the three main story lines.

In regards to Lorelai and Jess, sure they have similarities.  But I understand why Lorelai would be snarky about him when she's feeling vulnerable in her relationships with Luke and Rory, since he's had close relationships with each.  When that was all resolved she treated him like family and was happy to have him there.

[Lady Calypso]

Ok, fair enough! I haven't heard too many people say that they liked the musical, so my bad for assuming things that aren't true. Although I feel like I can be confident enough to say that if it was a choice between more character relationship scenes and the musical, most would choose the characters' relationships and progression. Such as: explaining when Logan/Rory started their relationship; more Lane/Rory; Lorelai/Jess scenes etc. Anything that actually explains the characters instead of having five minutes of fat shaming and a montage of Lorelai/Rory tossing newspapers at people's doors. 

Actually, I would have liked the musical more if they ended it when Taylor said there would be a costume change. That would have cut five minutes out and it could have been used elsewhere. 

48 minutes ago, shron17 said:

From early spoilers it sounded like both Jess and April were slated for more screen time

I know Jess definitely was. I haven't seen the pic, but there was a pic of Jess in his car with snow on top of it, so it sounds like there's a part cut out from Winter with him. I also thought April had at least one other scene, but I don't know what it was supposed to be about. Also, I know that ASP said that they wanted Marty to be part of it, but apparently she couldn't find a scene to fit him in because there was "so much stuffed into the four 90 minute episode". 

Lorelai has every right to be wary of Jess giving advice to Rory to write a book. She knows how shaky their relationship has been and although we don't know how much has been mended, Lorelai knows that Jess has never had a high opinion of her, much like her opinion of him. However, I do think during the cemetery scene that Lorelai was lashing out at Jess because of her reaction to Rory wanting to write about her personal life, something that Lorelai was not wanting. 

I was still on Lorelai's side; she had the right to say no to her life being written about. She told Rory that she could write it from her perspective, but she didn't want her own life to be reflected on. It's an entirely reasonable thing to ask for, and of course, Rory lashed out with "I don't need your permission! I can write whatever I want!" Actually, Rory, if you're going to use real life names (I assume she's at least using her and her mom's real names since the title of the book is Gilmore Girls), then you do need the other person's permission. She's lucky that Lorelai is still her mom and she would always support her, because Rory would have been sued if it was anyone else. Also, if Rory doesn't know what audience to write for and she doesn't know how to not include her mother's personal details, then maybe she needs to find a different career path. 

[shron17]

2 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

and of course, Rory lashed out with "I don't need your permission! I can write whatever I want!"

Rory's talk with Lane was interesting, how she went from anger to completely understanding Lorelai's objections.  And I think offering to completely drop the project with no hurt feelings redeemed her in the end.  I also thought it was interesting how sure Rory was that Lorelai already knew she was seeing Logan when she told her.  And that Lorelai was mainly upset Rory lied to her about it. 

[Melancholy]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

Lorelai has every right to be wary of Jess giving advice to Rory to write a book. She knows how shaky their relationship has been and although we don't know how much has been mended, Lorelai knows that Jess has never had a high opinion of her, much like her opinion of him. However, I do think during the cemetery scene that Lorelai was lashing out at Jess because of her reaction to Rory wanting to write about her personal life, something that Lorelai was not wanting. 

I was still on Lorelai's side; she had the right to say no to her life being written about. 

I dunno, everyone has a technical right to their feelings. However, Lorelai did sound ridiculous to jump to a conclusion that the fact that Jess gave Rory a general idea to write about her birth and childhood meant that there's some cause for "I can't wait to read about Jess's take" anger/paranoia. Lorelai jumped to conclusions and she jumped to unfair ones. And once more, Jess may not have grown fond of Lorelai but he can understand that her story is cool and he respects that it's a story Rory would tell from her heart. Much like how he didn't want to accuse Lorelai of stuff when talking out how she abandoned Luke and it wasn't exactly easy for him to call out that it looked like Lorelai was trying to break up with Luke.  It was far easier and more logical to spout off a snide attack on Lorelai in that conversation because she clearly and plainly hurt Luke than the conclusions that Lorelai jumped to just from Rory saying Jess gave her a book idea. 

Call it that Jess lacks this instinctive antagonism to look to accuse Lorelai of shit that she still harbors for him or Jess can put his antagonism aside to focus on having a productive, non-hurtful conversation with the people he cares about (Luke and Rory) but Lorelai can't. I do think it's one of those things and it's really a point for Jess over Lorelai. 

Edited January 8, 2017 by Melancholy

[shron17]

41 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

However, Lorelai did sound ridiculous to jump to a conclusion that the fact that Jess gave Rory a general idea to write about her birth and childhood meant that there's some cause for "I can't wait to read about Jess's take" anger/paranoia.

I agree, it did sound ridiculous since we saw the conversation where Jess suggested it.  It was obvious he was trying to help Rory get her life back on track by doing something she cared passionately about and that popped into his head as the most logical choice.  But Lorelai wasn't there for their conversation and immediately got defensive about the book idea and Jess's involvement.  But, I get that.  When you raise a kid on your own they've seen every single one of your weaknesses, and probably more than a few that you didn't even realize you had.  That's not why Jess suggested the idea and not why Rory wants to write it, but I understand Lorelai's reaction.  I love that in the end Lorelai decided to trust Rory and not read the first three chapters.

[Melancholy]

3 minutes ago, shron17 said:

I agree, it did sound ridiculous since we saw the conversation where Jess suggested it.  It was obvious he was trying to help Rory get her life back on track by doing something she cared passionately about and that popped into his head as the most logical choice.  But Lorelai wasn't there for their conversation and immediately got defensive about the book idea and Jess's involvement.  But, I get that.  When you raise a kid on your own they've seen every single one of your weaknesses, and probably more than a few that you didn't even realize you had.  That's not why Jess suggested the idea and not why Rory wants to write it, but I understand Lorelai's reaction.  I love that in the end Lorelai decided to trust Rory and not read the first three chapters.

I would have found Lorelai's reaction ridiculous even if we didn't see that Rory/Jess scene. Rory said Jess gave her an idea to write about their story. Not that he'd have any hand in writing it. I mean, I get why Lorelai flipped out. She was justifiably upset and scared of such a book so as upset and scared people do, she attacked a familiar bogeyman. It's human nature. It's just not good. 

I actually think Lorelai should have read the chapters. She and Rory will really be in a bad spot if Lorelai hates the story that Rory's put into the world but there's no stopping or fixing it because the book is complete. But that's a tougher one. Lorelai was in a tough spot of really hurting and disappointing Rory or giving up potential control of how the world sees her story. I think there's a chance that Lorelai could have guaranteed feeling better if she was reading along and giving notes. 

[shron17]

16 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

Lorelai was in a tough spot of really hurting and disappointing Rory or giving up potential control of how the world sees her story. I think there's a chance that Lorelai could have guaranteed feeling better if she was reading along and giving notes. 

But that's why I love that she didn't read it--it was her acknowledgment that Rory could tell her story the way she honestly saw it, not the way her mother thought she should see it.  And that she knows how people who are most important to her see her, and that's all she really cares about.

[Melancholy]

4 minutes ago, shron17 said:

But that's why I love that she didn't read it--it was her acknowledgment that Rory could tell her story the way she honestly saw it, not the way her mother thought she should see it.  And that she knows how people who are most important to her see her, and that's all she really cares about.

I believe those were Lorelai's intentions at the time and that optimism is very sweet. I just doubt that they'll stand up through reading Rory's matter of fact "But you did leave me in a bucket!" or her more Gilmore Grandparents sentiments conflicting with Lorelai's actions. Forget Lorelai's particular prideful, performative personality- I think it's very easily offended dangerous waters for anyone, especially people who didn't set out to be public figures beyond their small town. We may never know how it turns out but I wish Lorelai took the insurance Rory was offering.

[shron17]

6 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

I think it's very easily offended dangerous waters for anyone, especially people who didn't set out to be public figures beyond their small town.

It's a fair point, but I really think Rory would always put Lorelai in the best possible light.  And since they aren't famous I would expect the book to be more general and less specific.

I really hate the way Lorelai handled it when Luke asked about sleeping with the surrogates.  I mean, I think it was stupid that he wouldn't know that but since he asked would it have killed her to give him an explanation and at least toned down picking on him about it?  Not to even mention the way Paris responded.

Edited January 8, 2017 by shron17

[TimetravellingBW]

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

 Lorelai has every right to be wary of Jess giving advice to Rory to write a book. She knows how shaky their relationship has been and although we don't know how much has been mended, Lorelai knows that Jess has never had a high opinion of her, much like her opinion of him. However, I do think during the cemetery scene that Lorelai was lashing out at Jess because of her reaction to Rory wanting to write about her personal life, something that Lorelai was not wanting. 

I was still on Lorelai's side; she had the right to say no to her life being written about. She told Rory that she could write it from her perspective, but she didn't want her own life to be reflected on. 

2 hours ago, Melancholy said:

I dunno, everyone has a technical right to their feelings. However, Lorelai did sound ridiculous to jump to a conclusion that the fact that Jess gave Rory a general idea to write about her birth and childhood meant that there's some cause for "I can't wait to read about Jess's take" anger/paranoia. Lorelai jumped to conclusions and she jumped to unfair ones. And once more, Jess may not have grown fond of Lorelai but he can understand that her story is cool and he respects that it's a story Rory would tell from her heart. Much like how he didn't want to accuse Lorelai of stuff when talking out how she abandoned Luke and it wasn't exactly easy for him to call out that it looked like Lorelai was trying to break up with Luke.  It was far easier and more logical to spout off a snide attack on Lorelai in that conversation because she clearly and plainly hurt Luke than the conclusions that Lorelai jumped to just from Rory saying Jess gave her a book idea. 

Call it that Jess lacks this instinctive antagonism to look to accuse Lorelai of shit that she still harbors for him or Jess can put his antagonism aside to focus on having a productive, non-hurtful conversation with the people he cares about (Luke and Rory) but Lorelai can't. I do think it's one of those things and it's really a point for Jess over Lorelai. 

1 hour ago, shron17 said:

I agree, it did sound ridiculous since we saw the conversation where Jess suggested it.  It was obvious he was trying to help Rory get her life back on track by doing something she cared passionately about and that popped into his head as the most logical choice.  But Lorelai wasn't there for their conversation and immediately got defensive about the book idea and Jess's involvement.  But, I get that.  When you raise a kid on your own they've seen every single one of your weaknesses, and probably more than a few that you didn't even realize you had.  That's not why Jess suggested the idea and not why Rory wants to write it, but I understand Lorelai's reaction.  I love that in the end Lorelai decided to trust Rory and not read the first three chapters.

I understand Lorelai not wanting Rory to put her life on show like that and that she was in a stressful conversation, but immediately attacking Jess was totally uncalled for and immature. Her issue and argument was with Rory -  she should have focused purely on that. If her first instinct is still not to trust Jess an inch, assume he'll paint her in a bad light and to throw a tantrum when Rory listens to him, then she needs to freaking get over it. It's been almost fifteen years since he dared to reject her "cool mom advice" and over a decade since he got himself together and helped inspire Rory to make a change Lorelai had been desperate for. Being in a stressful situation doesn't justify her lashing out at him instantly and if her automatic reaction is to turn on him then they are clearly unfinished issues and she should sort them out with him.

I agree with @Melancholy, that in contrast Jess seems totally capable of putting aside whatever happened with Lorelai in the past and his first instinct is to deal with the situation at hand (helping out Luke or Rory) not bitching about her. Unlike Lorelai he seems to have actually let go and stopped stewing on stuff that happened when he was a teenager. 

Edited January 8, 2017 by TimetravellingBW

[shron17]

5 minutes ago, TimetravellingBW said:

I understand Lorelai not wanting Rory to put her life on show like that and that she was in a stressful conversation, but immediately attacking Jess was totally uncalled for and immature. Her issue and argument was with Rory -  she should have focused purely on that.

I don't know, Lorelai was already upset about the book and finding out it was Jess's idea only made her more defensive.  I'd have to watch again to be sure, but I recall her only saying something like "I can hardly wait to find out Jess's take on my life" which I would categorize as defensive and not an attack.  Assuming they haven't had much closure in their relationship, it's not such a stretch to assume Jess had negative intentions.

[Eeksquire]

Quote

Unlike Lorelai he seems to have actually let go and stopped stewing on stuff that happened when he was a teenager. 

But Lorelai still hasn't gotten over things that happened when SHE was a teenager.  I think (for me) all of her worst qualities are the ones she has in common with teenagers because she never really progressed emotionally from that point in a lot of ways.

[Lady Calypso]

I think the problem here that we're all facing is the lack of knowing what the status is on Lorelai and Jess' relationship in the revival. We don't know how much or how little it's changed since the original series. We don't know if they ever really mended anything. We can make assumptions, such as Lorelai blowing a kiss toward Jess, or Jess wanting to give the family privacy as he stays with his mom, or Lorelai's immediate assumption that Jess' suggestion for Rory writing a book about her and her mom is filled with negative intentions. But we don't know. We have no clue if they're closer than they were. So all of our opinions are just that. They're not based in facts, such as "Oh yeah, Lorelai still hates Jess" or "Jess thinks the world of Lorelai now because they made up". We've had no dialogue to really know what's changed between the two.

We know that Jess encouraged Rory to write a book about her and her mom because he thinks it'll be a cool story, and possibly make her some money. We know that Lorelai offered Jess a place to stay the night before the wedding and blew him a kiss, which could indicate a better relationship. We know that Lorelai was on the defense when she found out Jess' role in the book. In Fall, Lorelai/Jess seem to be on better terms because they're joking and agreeing with each other on top of the blowing of the kiss, but Summer seems to indicate that there's still some animosity. So for me, I have no clue where their relationship stands, but I'd like to think that it's more on the Fall side of things, where they've made up and they've gotten along a lot more. Even though Rory hasn't seen Jess in four+ years, it doesn't mean Lorelai hasn't. So who knows? 

[shron17]

1 hour ago, TimetravellingBW said:

I agree with @Melancholy, that in contrast Jess seems totally capable of putting aside whatever happened with Lorelai in the past and his first instinct is to deal with the situation at hand (helping out Luke or Rory) not bitching about her. Unlike Lorelai he seems to have actually let go and stopped stewing on stuff that happened when he was a teenager. 

This isn't a fair comparison since in this instance Lorelai is the one faced with having a book written about the most important role in her life to date, one that began when she was still a teenager.  Jess would likely be just as defensive under such circumstances.   And I think his ability to put aside his feelings about Lorelai had much more to do with avoiding kicking Luke and Rory when they're down rather than showing his emotional maturity.  It's much easier to take the high road when it's not you on the chopping block.

28 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think the problem here that we're all facing is the lack of knowing what the status is on Lorelai and Jess' relationship in the revival. We don't know how much or how little it's changed since the original series. We don't know if they ever really mended anything.

I think we may have a few more clues:

Luke's comment about keeping their families separate

Luke telling Jess not to say what he was thinking about Lorelai and therapy

Would a couple who's been together 9 years but never discussed having kids make mending fences with each other's relatives a priority?

Just some thoughts.

[Viqutorious]

The writing and editing left too many holes and unanswered questions. I don't understand it, they have been talking about a possible revival for years, no reason for it to be so sloppy with storylines and character development.

Edited January 9, 2017 by CheeseBurgh
Typo

[random chance]

49 minutes ago, CheeseBurgh said:

The writing and editing left too many holes and unanswered questions. I don't understand it, they have been talking about a possible revival for years, no reason for it to be so sloppy with storylines and character development.

You'd think! But she was damn determined to finish up the original storyline even though Rory was a decade past any kind of shocker pregnancy.

[Keith1980]

On 9/11/2016 at 3:27 AM, junienmomo said:

"Top of her class," "best and brightest," yet she got pregnant at fifteen. 

Considering that at age 32-39 she was still acting like a fifteen year old, especially with respect to her parents, I have to wonder how much of having sex, and it being unprotected, was done simply to piss off her parents.

Whether it was stupid, deliberate, or accidental, she owed her daughter better behavior than she showed. 

If I were Rory, looking back on her own conception, the Max debacle, the Christopher weakness, the self-imposed part of the bad relationship with her parents, and more, I would have far less respect for her than Rory did. 

I don't know what being bright has to do with getting pregnant young.  Everyone makes mistakes. 

But I think its one of the charming quirks of the show that it is actually the daughter who is often the more mature of the two.  It is partly meant to be an escapist drama after all.  I can understand why she acts the way she does towards Richard and Emily at times when you see some of their bad habits.  A lot of what Lorelai warns Rory about with her parents actually proves true. 

I'm sticking up for Lorelai here.  I think she's a great character and person.  She's witty and careing with a great core of working values that shine through more and more as the show progresses.  Though I like Rory too, she is the one that annoys more out of the two.  Early seasons Rory I like, not so much the Yale years.

[hippielamb]

8 hours ago, shron17 said:

Rory's talk with Lane was interesting, how she went from anger to completely understanding Lorelai's objections.  And I think offering to completely drop the project with no hurt feelings redeemed her in the end.  I also thought it was interesting how sure Rory was that Lorelai already knew she was seeing Logan when she told her.  And that Lorelai was mainly upset Rory lied to her about it. 

I liked that part too. That entire hotel scene is one I've watched repeatedly due to enjoying it so much. Rory's freakout, how certain she is that Lorelai knows about Logan, Lorelai's pep talk, and teasing Rory about the Wookiee. Even when Rory is keeping things from her mom, she has a sense that Lorelai knows due to their long closeness. 

[Guest]

So, one thing I think we can all agree on is that neither Marty, Logan, Collin, or Rory are Lorelai.  So if we could move any discussions of the night in question to a more appropriate thread (Season 5, Rory and Logan, All Episodes, Bests and Worsts, etc.), it would be great.

Thank you!

[TwirlyGirly]

In an earlier post, I brought up the fact Rory failed to bring a "hostess gift" when she and Lorelai visited the Yale alumnus prior to being accepted at Yale, and how rude that was.

Yesterday, I had the GG reruns on in the background and the episode "But I'm a Gilmore!" (S5/E19) was aired. That's the episode in which Rory and Logan attend dinner at the Huntzberger's house, and the Huntzberger family (with Shira in the lead), make it clear to Rory that she's not good enough to marry Logan.

The conversation (in part) is:

"SHIRA : Logan, you just haven’t thought about this. I mean, I’m sure Rory understands. She wants to work. Isn’t that right, Rory? Emily’s always talking about you wanting to be a reporter and travel around doing this and that. A girl like Rory has no idea what it takes to be in this family, Logan.
[...]
SHIRA: She wasn’t raised that way. She wasn’t bred for it. And this isn’t at all about her mother, it’s just, you come from two totally different worlds."

Note once again, Rory is invited to share a meal at the home of someone she's never met, and does not bring a even a small, token, "hostess gift."

The following week, in "How Many Kropogs to Cape Cod" (S5/E20), Logan is invited to Emily and Richard's house for dinner.

Lo and behold, he arrives bearing two hostess gifts, "[c]igars for Richard, chocolates for Emily..."

I used to think Shira was totally out of line for what she said about Rory in "But I'm a Gilmore," and I still believe Shira was incredibly rude to Rory at that dinner. But now that I'm putting together the pieces of all these episodes, I understand a bit better as to where Shira was coming from.

In that segment of society, proper etiquette is all-important. We've seen this play out in many episodes. In "Eight O'clock at the Oasis" (S3/E5 - the episode in which Lorelai refuses a second date with Peyton), Richard explains to Lorelai:

"Lorelai, you obviously do not understand the way things work in your mother’s world. There is a certain protocol that must be followed, social rules that dictate proper behavior, and these rules must be very strictly adhered to."

Rightly or wrongly, that is the way the world works in that segment of society. And Shira saw that Rory had not been properly educated by Lorelai to fit into that world, and how that would negatively affect Logan in his future, both socially and in working in his father's business. It's not about any of the "little things" (such as not knowing to bring a hostess gift) individually, it's about not being familiar with, and practicing, all the "little things" in total in her daily life.

So, while Shira should NEVER have taken Rory and Logan to task over Rory being an "unsuitable" choice to join the Huntzberger "empire" as Logan's wife at that dinner (Shira should have voiced her concerns privately to Logan at a different time, if she was going to say anything at all), she did have a point.

Richard and Emily didn't see Rory's lacking in that regard, because they loved her and because they probably weren't aware of these incidents. But Shira, who could look at Rory more objectively, did.

Lorelai seemed to think it possible to take what she wanted for Rory from Richard and Emily's world, and leave the rest behind. But it doesn't work that way. IMO, Lorelai's biggest failure as mother to Rory was refusing to acknowledge that, and not teaching Rory the tools she would need to successfully navigate that world (which she would need to do, if she wanted to marry Logan, or someone else from that world).

I think Logan deciding to join the family business and finally acknowledging that Rory lacked many of the skills she would need to successfully support him both in business and socially is why Rory eventually ended up as Logan's mistress, and not his wife, in the revival.

Edited January 25, 2017 by TwirlyGirly
Corrected misspelling

[Taryn74]

27 minutes ago, TwirlyGirly said:

Note once again, Rory is invited to share a meal at the home of someone she's never met, and does not bring a even a small, token, "hostess gift."

The following week, in "How Many Kropogs to Cape Cod" (S5/E20), Logan is invited to Emily and Richard's house for dinner.

Lo and behold, he arrives bearing two hostess gifts, "[c]igars for Richard, chocolates for Emily..."

 

28 minutes ago, TwirlyGirly said:

So, while Shira should NEVER have taken Rory and Logan to task over Rory being an "unsuitable" choice to join the Huntzberger "empire" as Logan's wife at that dinner (Shira should have voiced her concerns privately to Logan at a different time, if she was going to say anything at all), she did have a point.

 

What an interesting observation!  It never would have occurred to ME to take a hostess gift when being invited to dinner at someone's house, but that's kinda the point LOL.  I'm certainly not familiar with the customs of "that world" and neither was Rory.  Lorelai would have been if she had paid more attention as a young teen, rather than just rebelling against everything her parents stood for.  Interesting.

[Eyes High]

4 hours ago, TwirlyGirly said:

Yesterday, I had the GG reruns on in the background and the episode "But I'm a Gilmore!" (S5/E19) was on. That's the episode in which Rory aand Logan attend dinner at the Huntzberger's house, and the Huntzberger family (with Shira in the lead), make it clear to Rory that she's not good enough to marry Logan.

(...)

I used to think Shira was totally out of line for what she said about Rory in "But I'm a Gilmore," and I still believe Shira was incredibly rude to Rory at that dinner. But now that I'm putting together the pieces of all these episodes, I understand a bit better as to where Shira was coming from.

In that segment of society, proper etiquette is all-important. We've seen this play out in many episodes. In "Eight O'clock at the Oasis" (S3/E5 - the episode in which Lorelai refuses a second date with Peyton), Richard explains to Lorelai:

"Lorelai, you obviously do not understand the way things work in your mother’s world. There is a certain protocol that must be followed, social rules that dictate proper behavior, and these rules must be very strictly adhered to."

Rightly or wrongly, that is the way the world works in that segment of society. And Shira saw that Rory had not been properly educated by Lorelai to fit into that world, and how that would negatively affect Logan in his future, both socially and in working in his father's business. It's not about any of the "little things" (such as not knowing to bring a hostess gift) individually, it's about not being familiar with, and practicing, all the "little things" in total in her daily life.

So, while Shira should NEVER have taken Rory and Logan to task over Rory being an "unsuitable" choice to join the Huntzberger "empire" as Logan's wife at that dinner (Shira should have voiced her concerns privately to Logan at a different time, if she was going to say anything at all), she did have a point.

 

Very good point. However, your point highlights the weirdness of Shira informing Logan in front of Rory that she was unsuitable. Someone as versed in proper manners and etiquette as Shira would have known that, as you said, the proper thing to do is to voice concerns privately if at all, and certainly not in front of Rory herself on a social occasion. Good manners are as important as proper etiquette when it comes to proper social behaviour, and manners are all about making others feel at ease and comfortable in one's presence, a simple rule Shira flagrantly violated.

Moreover, if Shira were really up on her game, she wouldn't say anything at all to Logan or to Rory about Rory's suitability but politely ease Rory out of Logan's life, all while maintaining the pretense that Rory would be a delightful wife for Logan: offer her a challenging job opportunity that would take Rory far away from Logan, invite Rory to social events where despite everyone treating her graciously and warmly she would feel uncomfortable and out of place, etc. etc. As it is, informing Logan to his face that Rory was unsuitable was tantamount to issuing a challenge to him to dig in his heels, not to mention fostering resentment in Logan towards his parents. Amateur hour, but then, Shira is a former cocktail waitress, apparently. Not that Emily, who is always talking about etiquette but is one of the most ill-mannered and appallingly rude characters in Gilmore Girls (a universe including Lorelai, Paris, and even Jess, who seems to have improved somewhat), is any better.

Anyway, if there was to be a speech delivered to Rory by Logan's parents about her unsuitability, one couldn't do much better than the speech Serena's grandmother gave Dan in Gossip Girl back in Season 1:

"You'll always feel underdressed, no matter what you wear. And at dinner parties, it will be as if there's a language that sounds like English, and you think you speak it, but they don't hear you, and you don't understand them. As time passes, you'll feel that people never see you when they look at you, but wonder really whether you're Serena's whim, or her charity case, until the day comes when you realize that girls like Serena don't end up with Dan Humphrey. They end up with the Carters [rich male GG character] of the world, and people like you--they turn into cocktail party anecdotes of their foolish youth. So why don't you give it up and spare yourself the pain, hmm? I'm sure Serena will understand."

That speech didn't work on Dan, either, of course, because again, it's pretty much issuing a challenge to be proven wrong.

Edited January 18, 2017 by Eyes High

[junienmomo]

30 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Not that Emily, who is always talking about etiquette but is one of the most ill-mannered and appallingly rude characters in Gilmore Girls (a universe including Lorelai, Paris, and even Jess, who seems to have improved somewhat), is any better.

It would have been very interesting to see Lorelai ensconced in Hartford society as an adult, seeing as she never gave up a large portion of teenage immaturity. Being bad at relationships, she and Christopher would at best have been on-again, off-again, sometimes married, sometimes not. 

I also imagine there would have been a series of boyfriends, possibly ex-husbands. It was an accepted part of Hartford society, especially if she'd married Christopher early on. 

It would have been fascinating to see Emily come to terms with the fact that she sucked at motivating her own daughter and that a Hartford Lorelai would have had  many opportunities to rub it in her face. Emily's own rudeness would be the talk of the gossip circle, especially when amplified by Lorelai's rudeness. Emily may have been luckier than she thinks.

[TwirlyGirly]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Not that Emily, who is always talking about etiquette but is one of the most ill-mannered and appallingly rude characters in Gilmore Girls (a universe including Lorelai, Paris, and even Jess, who seems to have improved somewhat), is any better.

But let's not forget the letter Trix wrote to Richard on the eve of his wedding to Emily:

"My Dearest Richard, It is with heavy heart that I write you this letter tonight, but I cannot stand by and let you make a terrible mistake. Until now, I had thought, hoped, prayed that you would come to the same conclusion that I have. But you have not, and therefore, I feel it is my duty as your mother to beg you to reconsider your impending marriage [...] I'm sure that Emily is a very suitable woman for someone, but not for you. She will not be able to make you happy. She does not have the Gilmore stamina or spark. She is simply not a Gilmore.

[...]

I don't know the circumstances surrounding your breakup with Pennilyn Lott, but it is still my belief that she is much better suited for you than Emily. [...] I know that the timing of this is particularly awkward, since you are to be married tomorrow.

But your happiness is too important to me, so timing be damned."

So, it appears Trix had identified Emily as not being an appropriate match for Richard, in the same way Shira identified Rory as not being an appropriate match for Logan. Trix didn't say directly that Emily didn't have the necessary skills to support Richard appropriately socially and in business, but I think she made it clear that was at least part of the issue when she says "She is simply not a Gilmore" - to me, that speaks to all those things she feels Emily lacks that Richard is going to need to move forward successfully (especially since in "Gilmore World," social and business success ($) = happiness).

Edited January 18, 2017 by TwirlyGirly

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Trix herself was as rude as both Emily and Shira. None of them have the moral ground to judge who belongs where. Like Mitchum and Richard, Logan would've married Rory regardless of her lack of high society "manners".

The displeasure of the mothers is one more way Logan/Rory paralleled Richard/Emily 

[qtpye]

19 hours ago, TwirlyGirly said:

So, it appears Trix had identified Emily as not being an appropriate match for Richard, in the same way Shira identified Rory as not being an appropriate match for Logan. Trix didn't say directly that Emily didn't have the necessary skills to support Richard appropriately socially and in business, but I think she made it clear that was at least part of the issue when she says "She is simply not a Gilmore" - to me, that speaks to all those things she feels Emily lacks that Richard is going to need to move forward successfully (especially since in "Gilmore World," social and business success ($) = happiness).

I am beginning to think that these women had handsome educated sons who were scions of wealthy families and that no one would ever be good enough for them.

The wealthy have always liked to think of themselves as better then regular people in their manners and deportment.  Yes, they have their own little rules of society, but as we have found out they are no better or worse then most of us.  Think of that DuPont guy who shot that poor wrestler. 

[junienmomo]

22 hours ago, TwirlyGirly said:

But let's not forget the letter Trix wrote to Richard on the eve of his wedding to Emily:

"My Dearest Richard, It is with heavy heart that I write you this letter tonight, but I cannot stand by and let you make a terrible mistake. Until now, I had thought, hoped, prayed that you would come to the same conclusion that I have. But you have not, and therefore, I feel it is my duty as your mother to beg you to reconsider your impending marriage [...] I'm sure that Emily is a very suitable woman for someone, but not for you. She will not be able to make you happy. She does not have the Gilmore stamina or spark. She is simply not a Gilmore.

[...]

I don't know the circumstances surrounding your breakup with Pennilyn Lott, but it is still my belief that she is much better suited for you than Emily. [...] I know that the timing of this is particularly awkward, since you are to be married tomorrow.

But your happiness is too important to me, so timing be damned."

So, it appears Trix had identified Emily as not being an appropriate match for Richard, in the same way Shira identified Rory as not being an appropriate match for Logan. Trix didn't say directly that Emily didn't have the necessary skills to support Richard appropriately socially and in business, but I think she made it clear that was at least part of the issue when she says "She is simply not a Gilmore" - to me, that speaks to all those things she feels Emily lacks that Richard is going to need to move forward successfully (especially since in "Gilmore World," social and business success ($) = happiness).

Wow. To extrapolate, full circle means Lorelai is going to go ballistic on whoever Rory chooses to marry. 

[Kohola3]

Quote

 

Quote

What an interesting observation!  It never would have occurred to ME to take a hostess gift when being invited to dinner at someone's house, but that's kinda the point LOL.  I'm certainly not familiar with the customs of "that world" and neither was Rory. 

Well, not to start a huge discussion but I come from a middle class background and we never went to an event without a small hostess gift.  When friends or family visit me, it's the same.  And none of us were from "that world".  It's simply a polite and thoughtful custom from my generation, not based our position in society.  It was called a "bread and butter" gift.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Kohola3

[TwirlyGirly]

1 hour ago, Kohola3 said:

Well, not to start a huge discussion but I come from a middle class background and we never went to an event without a small hostess gift.  When friends or family visit me, it's the same.  And none of us were from "that world".  It's simply a polite and thoughtful custom from my generation, not based our position in society.  It was called a "bread and butter" gift.

I think it can be one or the other - or both. Remember, Logan and Rory are roughly the same age, and Logan knew to bring a gift, but Rory did not.

Full disclosure:  I grew up in Woodbridge. Connecticut. Yes, THAT Woodbridge. The "real" Woodbridge is an upper-middle class town in Connecticut, about 15 minutes drive from New Haven. My family just barely had the financial means to live there (and we did not have much of what many Woodbridge families take for granted; housekeepers, landscapers, etc). And while I grew up in the era of hand-written thank-you notes and invites, hostess gifts, etc., there is a section of Woodbridge called "The Flats" and those that lived there (who were 'economically disadvantaged" compared to the majority of Woodbridge residents) did not follow those social niceties even when I was young.

I now live in Warwick, Rhode Island, in a decidedly middle-class neighborhood, and my neighbors here don't do those things (and most are in my age group). But I suspect those that live in Newport, do!

Regardless, Lorelai was exposed to these things growing up, and I felt she did a disservice to Rory by not teaching her the things she needed to know to move seamlessly through the world of her grandparents, and the world of the families of other students who moved in those circles (like Logan!) she might meet at Yale. It's fine that Lorelai decided for herself that she didn't want to have anything to do with that world (or, more to the point, that she would take from it when the situation required it but didn't want to have to compromise herself along the way). But there were so many hints that Rory looked at the world a bit differently than she; Rory enjoyed spending time at the Club with Richard, had a Debut, went to her grandfather's alma mater (Yale), worked for the D.A.R., etc. A good mother would ensure her daughter was prepared to the best of her ability for success in that world, if that's what she chose to do.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Everytime Rory expressed anything that wasn't disdain for her grandparents world that matched Lorelai's, she'll have a meltdown. It would've been funny if it didn't become annoyingly restrictive. Being rich is not a bad thing and I hated how the show through Lorelai's perceptive has such a black and white view of it. 

As someone who is accused of not having a backbone, when it came the bigger things in her life, Rory paved her own way despite what Lorelai had written for her. It takes guts to go against something that has been ingrained in you since birth. Harvard! Grandparents world = evil! Embracing her grandparents, not their world but themselves was not something Lorelai anticipated which tells you how thoughtless she was Rory's needs despite the massive love she has for her.  Expressing interest and attending Yale instead of Harvard was another thing she never anticipated and refuse to acknowledge Rory herself having an interest in something that didn't include her influence.

Lorelai has more Emily in her than she cares to admit. She was rigid in Rory forming her own path as Emily was of her but her redeeming quality is that she relented before it cost a permanent rift between them. Like enthusiastically jumping on board Yale when she knew Rory's heart. The season 6 rift where she dug in and froze out Rory for months was out of character and I hated it. 

[TwirlyGirly]

14 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Everytime Rory expressed anything that wasn't disdain for her grandparents world that matched Lorelai's, she'll have a meltdown. It would've been funny if it didn't become annoyingly restrictive. Being rich is not a bad thing and I hated how the show through Lorelai's perceptive has such a black and white view of it. 

As someone who is accused of not having a backbone, when it came the bigger things in her life, Rory paved her own way despite what Lorelai had written for her. It takes guts to go against something that has been ingrained in you since birth. Harvard! Grandparents world = evil! Embracing her grandparents, not their world but themselves was not something Lorelai anticipated which tells you how thoughtless she was Rory's needs despite the massive love she has for her.  Expressing interest and attending Yale instead of Harvard was another thing she never anticipated and refuse to acknowledge Rory herself having an interest in something that didn't include her influence.

Lorelai has more Emily in her than she cares to admit. She was rigid in Rory forming her own path as Emily was of her but her redeeming quality is that she relented before it cost a permanent rift between them. Like enthusiastically jumping on board Yale when she knew Rory's heart. The season 6 rift where she dug in and froze out Rory for months was out of character and I hated it. 

I think this is because Lorelai believed Rory would be her "mini-me" in terms of Richard and Emily, and their world. In Lorelai's mind, Rory would despise them as much as she claimed she did, and their mutual hatred of them would be something else they could "bond" over and talk about when they sat on the sofa eating pizza and pretended to watch movies. When it didn't quite turn out that way, Lorelai was thrown for a loop and didn't know what to do. That she was insanely jealous of Rory's relationship with Richard and Emily was obvious. What really bothered me was when Lorelai went down the (paraphrasing) "But Rory's nice, mom. She's just agreeing because she doesn't want to hurt your feelings" path every time Rory agreed to do something suggested by Emily. On the one hand, Lorelai tells Rory over and over what a smart girl she is, but on the other hand, when it comes to the relationship between Rory, and Richard and Emily, suddenly Lorelai makes it sound as if Rory can't possibly know her own mind (because if she did, of course she'd think the same about them as Lorelai does).

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

2 hours ago, TwirlyGirly said:

I think this is because Lorelai believed Rory would be her "mini-me" in terms of Richard and Emily, and their world. In Lorelai's mind, Rory would despise them as much as she claimed she did, and their mutual hatred of them would be something else they could "bond" over and talk about when they sat on the sofa eating pizza and pretended to watch movies. When it didn't quite turn out that way, Lorelai was thrown for a loop and didn't know what to do. That she was insanely jealous of Rory's relationship with Richard and Emily was obvious. What really bothered me was when Lorelai went down the (paraphrasing) "But Rory's nice, mom. She's just agreeing because she doesn't want to hurt your feelings" path every time Rory agreed to do something suggested by Emily. On the one hand, Lorelai tells Rory over and over what a smart girl she is, but on the other hand, when it comes to the relationship between Rory, and Richard and Emily, suddenly Lorelai makes it sound as if Rory can't possibly know her own mind (because if she did, of course she'd think the same about them as Lorelai does).

The irony in the sentiment "Rory is only doing what you want because she's nice" is that it applied Lorelai too. 

Rory agreed to do things she wouldn't otherwise so she doesn't hurt Lorelai. Major example is running away with her despite her own confusion and need of answers when Lorelai decided she didn't want to marry Max.  And minor example, which is also recurring; is humoring Lorelai's sometimes inane blabbering. 

Now some would call this trait in Rory passive or meek, I see it as someone putting the needs of their loved ones ahead of their own. 

Edited January 22, 2017 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[Frelling Tralk]

On 18/01/2017 at 2:53 PM, Taryn74 said:

 

 

What an interesting observation!  It never would have occurred to ME to take a hostess gift when being invited to dinner at someone's house, but that's kinda the point LOL.

I would have never thought to bring the gifts of chocolate and cigers that Logan brings when he's invited to dinner with Richard and Emily, maybe that's more of a rich people thing lol, but if I'm invited to a meal (or a party/any kind of gathering really) at someone else's house then I would definitely consider it expected to bring a bottle of wine. It was a pretty major faux pas on Lorelai's part to turn up completely empty-handed for the dinner with the Harvard people 

[TwirlyGirly]

16 hours ago, Frelling Tralk said:

I would have never thought to bring the gifts of chocolate and cigers that Logan brings when he's invited to dinner with Richard and Emily, maybe that's more of a rich people thing lol, but if I'm invited to a meal (or a party/any kind of gathering really) at someone else's house then I would definitely consider it expected to bring a bottle of wine. It was a pretty major faux pas on Lorelai's part to turn up completely empty-handed for the dinner with the Harvard people 

I don't know if cigars and chocolate are "more of a rich people thing" than a bottle of wine. Logan was trying to make a good impression on Richard and Emily as Rory's beau. So it makes sense that he would make the attempt to bring a gift or gifts less generic than a bottle of wine (although I think his choice of gifts indicate he made more of an effort with Richard's gift, the cigars, than Emily's - the chocolates). Chances are at some point Rory mentioned Richard's affinity for cigars to Logan in conversation, and he remembered. Chocolates are fairly standard as a hostess gift, and safe. Very few people don't like chocolate, but not everyone smokes (and appreciates) good cigars.

Because neither Lorelai nor Rory had met the Harvard alum prior to their visit, if they were reluctant to bring him a generic gift, it would have been acceptable to send a gift with the (hand-written) note thanking him for his hospitality after the fact  (although I doubt Rory sent a thank you note either - another major faux pas). For example, a book about one of the artists whose art was displayed in his home. He wasn't at all shy about talking about his interests during their visit, so there was a lot to choose from in terms of a more personal gift.

Edited January 23, 2017 by TwirlyGirly

[hippielamb]

9 hours ago, TwirlyGirly said:

I don't know if cigars and chocolate are "more of a rich people thing" than a bottle of wine. Logan was trying to make a good impression on Richard and Emily as Rory's beau. So it makes sense that he would make the attempt to bring a gift or gifts less generic than a bottle of wine (although I think his choice of gifts indicate he made more of an effort with Richard's gift, the cigars, than Emily's - the chocolates). Chances are at some point Rory mentioned Richard's affinity for cigars to Logan in conversation, and he remembered. Chocolates are fairly standard as a hostess gift, and safe. Very few people don't like chocolate, but not everyone smokes (and appreciates) good cigars.

Because neither Lorelai nor Rory had met the Harvard alum prior to their visit, if they were reluctant to bring him a generic gift, it would have been acceptable to send a gift with the (hand-written) note thanking him for his hospitality after the fact  (although I doubt Rory sent a thank you note either - another major faux pas). For example, a book about one of the artists whose art was displayed in his home. He wasn't at all shy about talking about his interests during their visit, so there was a lot to choose from in terms of a more personal gift.

Logan also knew Richard and Emily prior to dating Rory so he probably knew about Richard's affinity for cigars. I think a bottle of wine is the least you can bring when going to someone's home for a meal. I can't imagine showing up empty handed (and the Gilmore world is a foreign concept to me, so it's not about money). 

Chilton years Rory is very nice. It is possible she sent the Harvard alumnus guy a thank you note. I do agree that Lorelai should have taught Rory it is polite to bring something to a dinner. She does bring flowers and cranberry sauce to the Kim's thanksgiving so she's not completely without manners. 

[Guest]

16 hours ago, hippielamb said:

Logan also knew Richard and Emily prior to dating Rory so he probably knew about Richard's affinity for cigars. I think a bottle of wine is the least you can bring when going to someone's home for a meal. I can't imagine showing up empty handed (and the Gilmore world is a foreign concept to me, so it's not about money). 

Chilton years Rory is very nice. It is possible she sent the Harvard alumnus guy a thank you note. I do agree that Lorelai should have taught Rory it is polite to bring something to a dinner. She does bring flowers and cranberry sauce to the Kim's thanksgiving so she's not completely without manners. 

And chocolate. You can't forget the chocolate that Mrs Kim so appreciated. ;)