Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[RazzleberryPie]

Ok they actually do promote women getting pleasure from sex with their husbands.

theyre to try to please each other. The emphasis on being 'joyfully available' is bc face it - the women usually work far harder wrangling all those kids while always being pregnant or nursing, so they may not be in the mood as much or at least preoccupied and uncomfortable. 

Now we can by no means deny that the women are also taught to submit to every thing with every damn breath they take, so most of these men get a huge ego and have very unrealistic expectations, too.

being tired isn't an assault on their manhood or coup to be headship. Sometimes you're just tired. 

[Sew Sumi]

And guess what? Your horny partner should respect your feelings. Not a lot of respect for wives in this regard, according to Mechelle. And given how many children Kelly Bates had 13 or so months apart, Gil didn't leave Kelly alone much, either. Anna? Probably no better with horndog Smuggar as a husband, she's just less fertile.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Sew Sumi
Corndog Smuggler? Really, spellcheck?

[Arwen Evenstar]

1 hour ago, Sew Sumi said:

And guess what? Your horny partner should respect your feelings. Not a lot of respect for wives in this regard, according to Mechelle. And given how many children Kelly Bates had 13 or so months apart, Gil didn't leave Kelly alone much, either. Anna? Probably no better with corndog Slugger as a husband, she's just less fertile.

She had 5 pregnancies in 7 years...I'd say she's kept pace thus far, even with only 4 live births.

[Sew Sumi]

Other than the four months it took to conceive Mack, the others are spaced approximately two years apart (Michael a little less but not much). At least #5 will be at least 18 months after Mere as we haven't gotten an announcement from Anna yet. 

Although you have to wonder how anxious they would be to announce that Scumbag had sired more spawn? Leghumpers would be all, "Told you so!" The rest of society? Pretty sick and sad.

[Missy Vixen]

2 hours ago, JoanArc said:

 

I had a shred of hope when Joshley Madison's crimes against his marriage happened that Anna would stop being such a doormat, take her brother up on his generous offer, and exit stage left.

If she tried to do that now, she'd lose custody of her kids to either her parents (who will turn on her in a hot minute) or Kim Jong Boob, who will not allow another scandal to mar his moneymaking opportunities. Here's another thought: Imagine what she's being exposed to because Joshley Madison probably still doesn't know how to use a condom.

[DangerousMinds]

8 hours ago, Missy Vixen said:

I had a shred of hope when Joshley Madison's crimes against his marriage happened that Anna would stop being such a doormat, take her brother up on his generous offer, and exit stage left.

If she tried to do that now, she'd lose custody of her kids to either her parents (who will turn on her in a hot minute) or Kim Jong Boob, who will not allow another scandal to mar his moneymaking opportunities. Here's another thought: Imagine what she's being exposed to because Joshley Madison probably still doesn't know how to use a condom.

I don't necessarily think she would lose her kids.

[flyingdi]

You know I'm not entirely sure I blame Anna for not taking a brother, who appears to have gone to the media before he went to his sister, up on his offer.  I may be wrong about this but her brother should have kept his offer of help between him and Anna.

[Clemgo3165]

2 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

I don't necessarily think she would lose her kids.

I can't imagine she'd lose her kids to someone with a history of child molestation. She'd need to find work, but she'd be OK.

[Arwen Evenstar]

10 minutes ago, Clemgo3165 said:

I can't imagine she'd lose her kids to someone with a history of child molestation. She'd need to find work, but she'd be OK.

The fact that he has a well known addiction to pornography should be enough.  No family court would look kindly upon minor children being exposed to such deleterious material. 

I guess the cult's reasons for avoiding divorce at any cost means what they really want is to avoid courtrooms at any cost. Because the state wouldn't simply accept their..."because Jebus" reasoning for everything.

[Clemgo3165]

The Catholic Church is known for it's stance against divorce, many Christian churches are. Duggardom is not alone in the effort to avoid divorce.

I don't know that an addiction to porn would be enough to separate him from his kids entirely. AFAIK he didn't have any kiddie porn, and there are many adults who watch porn regularly whether alone or with a significant other. No, the children shouldn't see it, but I haven't heard anything to indicate that Josh's kids were exposed. 

[Arwen Evenstar]

4 minutes ago, Clemgo3165 said:

The Catholic Church is known for it's stance against divorce, many Christian churches are. Duggardom is not alone in the effort to avoid divorce.

I don't know that an addiction to porn would be enough to separate him from his kids entirely. AFAIK he didn't have any kiddie porn, and there are many adults who watch porn regularly whether alone or with a significant other. No, the children shouldn't see it, but I haven't heard anything to indicate that Josh's kids were exposed. 

The Catholic Church still gives an out for some situations and realizes the role of the state as necessary for a documented legal proceeding. Fundies don't like the court system. Child porn is a different animal entirely from adult porn and possession of it is a crime in and of itself.  

We only can assume Josh was into adult stuff, but if he exposed his kids to any kind of porn, he would be in deep caca.  I didn't say he'd lose his kids over adult porn, but it would impact the custody arrangement, requiring perhaps one other responsible adult present while Josh visited the kids.

[Clemgo3165]

I just don't think the possession and consumption of adult porn by an adult would be enough to require supervised visitation. Otherwise you'd have supervised visits for every man who keeps copies of Playboy at home or every wife who's enjoyed a porn flick with her husband. Adult porn is common among adults and as long as it's kept to the adults there shouldn't be a problem.  His issue would come with the history of molestation.

Sure the Catholic Church gives an out in the form of an annulment, but that's not a divorce. And if you are legally divorced you cannot participate in fully in the church - no communion, no joining others at the table for you.

[Sew Sumi]

2 hours ago, flyingdi said:

You know I'm not entirely sure I blame Anna for not taking a brother, who appears to have gone to the media before he went to his sister, up on his offer.  I may be wrong about this but her brother should have kept his offer of help between him and Anna.

He didn't go to the media. He posted on Facebook, the post was seen by us, FJ, Pickles, and probably other snark sites. As we've seen with the tabloids, they just picked up on our posts and fashioned articles around them.

[Jynnan tonnix]

57 minutes ago, Clemgo3165 said:

I just don't think the possession and consumption of adult porn by an adult would be enough to require supervised visitation. Otherwise you'd have supervised visits for every man who keeps copies of Playboy at home or every wife who's enjoyed a porn flick with her husband. Adult porn is common among adults and as long as it's kept to the adults there shouldn't be a problem.  His issue would come with the history of molestation.

Sure the Catholic Church gives an out in the form of an annulment, but that's not a divorce. And if you are legally divorced you cannot participate in fully in the church - no communion, no joining others at the table for you.

I don't really know how it works either, but maybe the fact that Josh admitted to a porn addiction would tip the scales. Many people might enjoy a bit of porn here and there without it being a problem, but terming it an addiction might indicate that there was a bit less control over when and where it might be watched, and whether it might take precedence over other things which it shouldn't.

[Clemgo3165]

I think it's easier sometimes to say you're "addicted" to something like porn than to say that you just enjoy it. You admit your failings in the press and do your obligatory rehab and then hope that it's over. 

We haven't been given any indication that Anna or the children, his office, or his family for that matter, knew anything about this being an issue. Either he managed to keep it hidden or they have tremendous control in keeping it from being revealed. Either is possible I suppose.

[Sew Sumi]

24 minutes ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

I don't really know how it works either, but maybe the fact that Josh admitted to a porn addiction would tip the scales. Many people might enjoy a bit of porn here and there without it being a problem, but terming it an addiction might indicate that there was a bit less control over when and where it might be watched, and whether it might take precedence over other things which it shouldn't.

I think he took "addiction" out of later drafts of that blog post. However, enough people saved the original that it could be used against him if need be.

[Missy Vixen]

5 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

I don't necessarily think she would lose her kids.

Joshley Madison and KJB will do whatever they have to to avoid paying child support, up to and including using the media to smear Anna. They might be more dedicated to this than dealing with another scandal. Considering the fact that KJB sold her freaking house out from under her while Joshley was in Jesus Jail, it's not a huge leap.

Anna's parents would most likely also get involved; these are people who knew their son-in-law (if one believes the story) molested his sisters and still told their daughter to marry him. They're not sticking up for her. They're siding with the Duggars.

[lulu69]

1 hour ago, Clemgo3165 said:

the Catholic Church gives an out in the form of an annulment, but that's not a divorce. And if you are legally divorced you cannot participate in fully in the church - no communion, no joining others at the table for you.

Hello, catholic here. I realize this isn't the religion thread but I just wanted to clarify the above point. The catholic church does allow divorce in some cases with no bar from receiving communion, etc. This is especially true if adultery or abuse by the spouse was the cause of divorce. What the church is not okay with is remarriage; that's when an annulment is required.

Now fundies, that's a different breed.....

[Absolom]

Quote

If she tried to do that now, she'd lose custody of her kids to either her parents (who will turn on her in a hot minute) or Kim Jong Boob

5 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

I don't necessarily think she would lose her kids.

It would be quite the long haul legally for either set of grandparents to get custody of the kids when they have two parents who have no convictions for anything or as far as we know no allegations of anything current making either an unfit parent.

Quote

And if you are legally divorced you cannot participate in fully in the church - no communion, no joining others at the table for you.

Of course you can receive communion if divorced.  It's getting remarried without a church annulment first that makes it so people are not supposed to receive communion.  Although at least in large communities no one knows and no one asks.

Edited July 20, 2016 by Absolom

[Missy Vixen]

3 minutes ago, lulu69 said:

 

Now fundies, that's a different breed.....

One can get a divorce as a fundie. In the OldenDays(tm), it meant that unless you were BFF's with the pastor or made a huge donation to the building fund, you were shunned. Now, you'll get to attend the church's Divorce Ministry. You'll still be shunned to some degree, but they'll let you (and your wallet, don't forget that tithe!) in the door. 

[flyingdi]

1 hour ago, Sew Sumi said:

He didn't go to the media. He posted on Facebook, the post was seen by us, FJ, Pickles, and probably other snark sites. As we've seen with the tabloids, they just picked up on our posts and fashioned articles around them.

I'm not entirely sure I would trust a person that posted something like that on Facebook first either.  Just my opinion, though.

[Sew Sumi]

Maybe he didn't feel safe calling Anna, but knew that she checks his FB and would see his message? It's just unfortunate that he never made his account private. That is the only real mistake here. Although let's face it, Duggars don't really use FB much other than to post their own self-serving stuff; they're not looking at other people's pages and responding to them. So maybe Daniel thought that might be safe? I didn't think to look at his FB, but SOMEONE did, and word got out like wildfire. 

The first part is just conjecture, but hopefully, he locked down his FB after that. 

[Arwen Evenstar]

I guess we know  Anna wouldn't get a divorce since she knows she can't look to her parents for support, she has no job or education skills and her in laws are Fundy royalty with a Tee Vee empire...she has likely been intimidated by Boob's shenanigans thus far...she probably wrongly believes that he can keep her little M&Ms from her...

Girl needs to lawyer up and learn what her legal rights are outside of this miserable cult and their court of opinion.

[Clemgo3165]

While Anna looks like she's been having a hard time, she does seem to have swallowed all of the fundie koolaid and really, firmly believes that she's doing the right thing to stand by Josh. It's how she was raised and what she was taught, and both her parents and the Duggars have been extremely careful in limiting outside influences with her.

[kokapetl]

Jimbob probably hasn't even threatened anything. He's the sole person who has the means and inclination to financially support Anna and the M&Ms. Josh can't, her own parents can't and wouldn't. 

[Sew Sumi]

27 minutes ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

I guess we know  Anna wouldn't get a divorce since she knows she can't look to her parents for support, she has no job or education skills and her in laws are Fundy royalty with a Tee Vee empire...she has likely been intimidated by Boob's shenanigans thus far...she probably wrongly believes that he can keep her little M&Ms from her...

Girl needs to lawyer up and learn what her legal rights are outside of this miserable cult and their court of opinion.

She's never going to do that. Never. I agree that she swallows Kook Aid by the gallon. Daily. She would need a TON of support to survive on the outside at this point, and I don't know if even Daniel or her sister Rebekah, who also left the cult, can give her the tools she needs to make it. 

Edited July 20, 2016 by Sew Sumi

[Arwen Evenstar]

Josh is so unemployable at this point, he's got no choice but to write a tell all book. He's a pariah amongst his own ilk. He's got a wife and 4 kids to support with no hope of earning a living wage 

Smuggley seems to only have such vile and slimy and oily options available as:

• snake oil merchant
• used car salesman
• politician
• creepy minister/missioncationer
• televangelist

[Missy Vixen]

OMG, I would pay money to watch Joshley Madison get back into politics.

He couldn't do the missioncation thing because most parents (as we saw when he and KJB went to the putt-putt golf place) don't want their kids anywhere around him.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Missy Vixen

[Lady Edith]

On July 20, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Absolom said:

Of course you can receive communion if divorced.  It's getting remarried without a church annulment first that makes it so people are not supposed to receive communion.  Although at least in large communities no one knows and no one asks.

Truth.  My parents divorced when I was a young teen.  My dad was Catholic.  He remarried and didn't have his marriage to my mom annulled.  He was excommunicated until he had the annulment.  

With Anna, she would have no hope of ever remarrying if she and Josh divorced.  I have a lifelong friend who is Southern Baptist.  She married a man who had an affair their first year of marriage.  She filed for divorce and told me that she can never remarry because it would be seen as adultry in the eyes of her church.  i believe that the Duggar brand of Christisnity is the same.

[Absolom]

Your friend may be confused or it may be her immediate congregation. It could also be her own personal view.  Adultery is the ultimate conservative out.  If you divorce someone because they commit adultery, then in most Southern Baptist churches no one blinks if you remarry.   We have two such couples in our little neighborhood here.  Anna with Gothardism is living with a stricter legalism.  I expect Jim Bob would try to tell her she should never re-marry, but he would have ulterior motives.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Absolom

[RazzleberryPie]

Gothardism tells Anna that Josh's adultry is her fault. 

[Arwen Evenstar]

33 minutes ago, Absolom said:

Your friend may be confused or it may be her immediate congregation. It could also be her own personal view.  Adultery is the ultimate conservative out.  If you divorce someone because they commit adultery, then in most Southern Baptist churches no one blinks if you remarry.   We have two such couples in our little neighborhood here.  Anna with Gothardism is living with a stricter legalism.  I expect Jim Bob would try to tell her she should never re-marry, but he would have ulterior motives.

Most Baptist congregations seem to permit remarriage. Some pastors may refuse to perform a wedding if one party was not "blameless" in their divorce. I've heard of this being done in the past, but I'm not sure if it's common practice nowadays, except in stricter churches.

[Portia]

I absolutely know some Southern Baptists who consider remarriage after divorce sinful. The most common reason I've heard cited is that remarriage closes the door to future reconciliation. I knew a lot more of these people 20+ years ago, though; this attitude is becoming pretty rare. Besides, these days, gays--not divorcees--are the greatest threat to Christian marriage! 

As has already been mentioned, individual Baptist congregations vary, but in my experience they run the gamut from A to B: from extremely conservative to pretty damn conservative. 

[JoanArc]

Josh's instgram raptured!

Well....the one his family knows about.

[Sew Sumi]

Too bad his twitter has all those pictures with disgusting politicians who probably tried to wash their hands of the Duggars for good after even Joshgate I. 

Too bad the internet lives forever! Dumbass.

Dying to know what his incognito account is. But would any of his sisters, including those who run "duggarfam" even follow it? I doubt any of those young women speak with him, not that they seemed to have much of a relationship with him to begin with. Any relationship they had was mediated between them and Anna, even if Anna didn't know a thing about what happened. 

[Sew Sumi]

From the Benessa thread: 

I dunno, but I suspect Smuggar still had his health insurance at that point so maybe she took advantage of that.  Arkansas must have some real midwives in addition to questionable ones the Duggars use.

We don't know the details of Smuggar's termination of employment from the FRC, other than it was a sudden break. We don't know whether he resigned or if he was fired on the spot. At best, he might have gotten 6 weeks severance out of this situation, but I wouldn't be surprised if he got nothing, due to the nature of the situation. For that certain organization, definitely a firing offense. If he got nothing, he's lucky that he still had TLC cash to pay for Anna's care. Don't those backwoods midwives pretty much deal in cash anyway? The patients are just screwed if there's a hospital transfer. Anna's been lucky...so far. Derick was still at Wally World when Izzy was born, so they were covered for her c-section, but who knows what insurance Benessa had (if any) to pay for her hospital transfer/transfusion. 

If Smuggar was able to get insurance, good for him, but it would have been Obamacare-related. Icky! I seriously doubt Samaritan would take him after Joshgate, because they look at your "character" as part of the application process. I think molesting your sisters is a fail, even for fundies. 

[birkenstock]

I would hope that the FRC would still cover a 7-month pregnant woman. For being so pro-life and pro-family, leaving a woman without insurance so close to her due date is really shitty. While it 100% falls on Josh and the FRC has the right to do so, it's sad that Anna was the one who had to face the consequences of having the backwoods homebirth. 

Would Anna and the kids be able to get Samaritan insurance even if Josh was prohibited? Also, does TLC have healthcare they can buy into?   

[Sew Sumi]

I also hope that the FRC didn't leave Anna in a ditch, but most severance, even in good terms, is what, 6 weeks? Anna was 8 weeks from her due date when Joshgate exploded. However, he left under such a cloud, I could see them cutting all ties right away with no concern for his pregnant wife. Anna's usefulness to their organization died the second Smuggar was fired/resigned (we will never know what really happened).

TLC is all contract, so I doubt they insure the "talent." Regarding Samaritan, I checked the guidelines, and because Smuggar had extra-marital sex, he wouldn't qualify. There's also the issue about treating your body like a temple. Oops! However, they do allow the "one-person" family plan, so Anna and the kids could be covered. She seems to hit all of their marks. 

I suppose they could have gotten her on this; the Duggars used to (and may still) use this. 

[Churchhoney]

I would be very very very surprised if they didn't continue paying for the Smugs' insurance through the pregnancy, birth and early infancy.

Under the circumstances, the last thing they wanted was to give anyone an excuse to brand them with hypocrisy that could be compared to Smugs' hypocrisy. They were well aware of the media crapstorm they would have faced had there been some baby-related medical crisis and their many critics had found out that the self-righteous, pro-life, pro-family group had dropped health insurance coverage for a young mother with a baby on the way, when she was already a betrayed spouse. They're ideological crazies but they're also savvy beltway players and not stupid hick cheapskates like Jim Bob. Women with graduate degrees work there.

Their top consideration when Smugs left had to be how they could make everyone forget their involvement with him as quickly as possible. If they'd stopped covering Anna's health care, they would have needlessly risked a health crisis for her that could -- and would -- have been quickly tied back to their actions. And a story like that, which would have had real legs in the media, would have emphasized their relationship to Smuggar, not helped it get lost in the mists of time, as they certainly hoped for. I'd bet real money that forestalling that eventuality was worth the 10 or 15 thou it cost them to continue the Smugs' insurance till well after the birth.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Churchhoney

[kokapetl]

How much would health insurance cost for a family of 6? How much would it cost for a family of 18?

[Sew Sumi]

Churchie, I hope you're right. It's easy to armchair quarterback a year later, but they had to move quickly at the time. I guess they must have contingency plans for people representing the FRC who go rogue or have skeletons in their closets. 

Edited July 30, 2016 by Sew Sumi
Added Churchie's name, since Koka's post snuck in between. :)

[Churchhoney]

1 minute ago, Sew Sumi said:

I hope you're right. It's easy to armchair quarterback a year later, but they had to move quickly at the time. I guess they must have contingency plans for people representing the FRC who go rogue or have skeletons in their closets. 

I'm sure they do by now because it's been happening to them since the beginning!

[Sew Sumi]

6 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

How much would health insurance cost for a family of 6? How much would it cost for a family of 18?

A shit ton, other than Scamaritan, where in both instances, they could pay only $400/mo. BUT you have to play by their rules, and they are strict as hell. 

http://samaritanministries.org/costs/monthly/

Guidelines. Relevant rules stuff starts on p.14:

http://samaritanministries.org/how-it-works/guidelines/

Edited July 30, 2016 by Sew Sumi

[Churchhoney]

10 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

How much would health insurance cost for a family of 6? How much would it cost for a family of 18?

For a family of six maybe $18,000 to $20,000 a year or thereabouts, I'd guess. Kids are less expensive to insure, but births run it up.

[kokapetl]

Do employers get a better deal when insuring their employees?

[Churchhoney]

3 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Do employers get a better deal when insuring their employees?

Yeah, an employer group will be cheaper. Costs can be spread among the group, which helps because in any pre-formed group only a few people are likely to be really big spenders in any given year. Plus, insurers have learned that people with fulltime, regular gainful employment tend to be among the healthiest people in society as are their dependent families. ... Of course, bigger employer groups get the best deals, because the cost spreading is easiest for a big group. FRC is relatively small, so they'd have a medium-sized payment. Much less than an individual or a very tiny business would pay, but more than a huge company would pay.

[kokapetl]

I hope TLC provides health insurance for all the families, and that Anna's appearance on the show gets her family coverage. 

[Sew Sumi]

I don't think reality show stars get company benefits as actors working for a network show would. I think even the Kartrashians have to find insurance independent of E! network. 

Let's remember that most states don't even require that kids on reality shows be given a trust account. Remember how PA passed a law to protect the Gosselin kids? The Coogan law only pertains to child actors on network shows, not reality-based programming. 

Edited July 30, 2016 by Sew Sumi

[Churchhoney]

42 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

I hope TLC provides health insurance for all the families, and that Anna's appearance on the show gets her family coverage. 

I hope it, too, but I don't think it'd actually happen in a million years, unfortunately. I'm afraid the whole point of reality tv is to keep costs down as low as possible, don't you think? The crapweasels might even welcome illness as a plot point. And I wish I were kidding!

[BitterApple]

IIRC, participants in reality shows are considered independent contractors and not employees of the network. Therefore, I don't think they'd get any sort of insurance coverage through TLC. 

I'm assuming Josh got some sort of severance package from the FRC, which may have included an extension of his benefits for x number of months. In regards to Anna, I'm shocked there hasn't been an M5 announcement yet.