S01.E02: Subtle Beast

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

As attorney John Stone counsels Naz, lead detective Dennis Box investigates the crime.

[Primetimer]

How a dark procedural commentary on criminal justice uses its protagonist, and his relationships and reputation, in just the right way.

View the full article

[The Hound Lives]

I don't think I could be any more invested as I am after 2 episodes. I don't think the casting could be any better. Two episodes in and I am desperate for more. 

[Muffyn]

I am right there with you.  I really care about how this turns out.  The grizzled detective is a trope but there are subtleties to the performance and the character that elevate it.   The actor playing Naz expresses so much with his eyes.  His family is equally excellent.  I am in for the duration.

[formerlyfreedom]

I cannot look away. But I'm so upset by what I see. A few times, I had to literally close my eyes, and once I even covered my ears (the junkie puking in holding cell). The images are scorched on my brain - the light and dark that Sarah mentions, and the 'visual life preservers.'

That said - the victim's stepfather is pretty shady looking at this point, although I suspect that was intentional.

[The Hound Lives]

9 minutes ago, saoirse said:

I cannot look away. But I'm so upset by what I see. A few times, I had to literally close my eyes, and once I even covered my ears (the junkie puking in holding cell). The images are scorched on my brain - the light and dark that Sarah mentions, and the 'visual life preservers.'

That said - the victim's stepfather is pretty shady looking at this point, although I suspect that was intentional.

I instantly felt weird about the Stepfather but agree, I think it was intentional. Like he is so...done(?). He had been through it all with Andrea and was almost emotionally removed from the seeing the images. He wasn't surprised by it. I was kind of expecting to find out Andrea was a prostitute or maybe a "kept" woman but finding out the place was hers, after her Mom died, I kind of set those thoughts aside. But Step-Dad didn't seem shocked at her end, didn't comment anything about "why her?" or "who would do this to her?". Not that this woman deserved her fate at all but I can't help but think her Step-Dad's reaction should lead us to think she didn't really hang with the best crowd. 

44 minutes ago, Muffyn said:

I am right there with you.  I really care about how this turns out.  The grizzled detective is a trope but there are subtleties to the performance and the character that elevate it.   The actor playing Naz expresses so much with his eyes.  His family is equally excellent.  I am in for the duration.

The trope is in full effect but damn if he isn't good. And I can't help but think he has glaring doubts and tried to the very end to avoid writing "homicide" on that white board. He wanted a confession, yes, but I think he wants the story more than anything. Then again, he could just be a prick but I don't think so at this point. This will probably change next week because damn, this writing is good. 
And I agree about Naz. Is it terrible that I am totally hot for him? Ha. Shallow desire aside, he really is the perfect centerpiece for this. Those big eyes are so confused and scared. I want to hug him but I am also scared as shit for him. Strange because of what he is accused of. Shows that the look influences innocence, even if the evidence points in the opposite direction, 

[Knuckles]

I was so hoping that this would be a 90 minute episode...like the Hound, I am totally invested in this show. Though it chills me...I have been a juror several times in the courthouse, and heard the "no bail, Rikers" call on a dozen cop shows. But until that van slowly entered the courtyard of Rikers, I never felt revulsion and fear. Every detail feels raw to me. Agreed, that the casting, the writing and the production are just enthralling. Really can't wait for next week.

[lucindabelle]

My take is that the detective knows something is off inhaler found there and in his heart he must realize that an asthmatic could never have done that intense attack  and didn't policeman say something about the cat being itchy and that would be a big no-no for someone with asthma or allergies too.  I also am loving this show so much about it is so fascinating. Stepfather not recognizing her at first was strange. Guess mom was rich and left Andrea the house.

Edited July 18, 2016 by lucindabelle

[numbnut]

I initially wanted to binge-watch this show but it may be too depressing, especially if a lot of it will be about Naz surviving in prison. The few lighter moments got me through -- that one guy's reaction to Naz's charges, and the "Jamie Foxx is no Denzel" thing. Too funny. Paul Sparks keeps turning up in all my fave shows. His lack of questioning about his stepdaughter's last moments is very suspicious. I was so glad when Naz stopped speaking English during his parents' visit and I'm hoping his intelligence outshines his naivety more and more with each ep. If he's guilty, the show is hiding it really well.

Edited July 18, 2016 by numbnut

[MiamiGuy]

Fantastic episode.

And it's great to see Middle Eastern actors playing characters who have nothing to do with terrorism, especially the wonderful Iranian actor Peyman Moaadi as Naz's dad. Check out the Iranian film 'A Separation' (which won the foreign-language film Oscar in 2012) or the 2009 film 'About Elly' and you really see how compelling he can be. And now maybe Riz Ahmed, who was so good in a small film from a few years ago called 'The Reluctant Fundamentalist,' will get some name recognition and won't just be that guy from 'Nightcrawler.'

Can't wait for episode 3.

[bagatelle]

I hope we don't see too much of Naz in prison.  It's so depressing and I'd rather see the detectives at work, although I guess it's a done deal for them. Getting him charged was all they wanted, and it's on to the next, so I want to see Stone doing some detective work. Forensics, talking to witnesses, anything but watching Naz rot in prison.

[numbnut]

24 minutes ago, MiamiGuy said:

And now maybe Riz Ahmed, who was so good in a small film from a few years ago called 'The Reluctant Fundamentalist,' will get some name recognition and won't just be that guy from 'Nightcrawler.'

I saw TRF and found it forgettable, so much so that I don't recall the plotline and didn't recognize Ahmed in Nightcrawler, but he's strong here and I'll look forward to seeing what he does next.

15 minutes ago, bagatelle said:

I want to see Stone doing some detective work. Forensics, talking to witnesses, anything but watching Naz rot in prison.

Amen. I hope he stops taking other clients so he can get moving on the research. I thought his discovery about Box's involvement was going to light a fire under his ass. Less giddiness about "being in the right place at the right time" and more elbow grease, please.

Edited July 18, 2016 by numbnut

[LoveLeigh]

What's on Jack's feet? 

[Valmarmar]

What's on Jack's feet? 

eczema (sp?)

[The Hound Lives]

6 hours ago, numbnut said:

 If he's guilty, the show is hiding it really well.

At this point, I don't think he even knows if he is guilty or not. There is a pocket of time he doesn't remember. Unless, like you said, he is hiding it and mind fucking us all. It just seems so outside his nature as we have seen it. Maybe that is the twist in it all. 

6 hours ago, numbnut said:

I saw TRF and found it forgettable, so much so that I don't recall the plotline and didn't recognize Ahmed in Nightcrawler, but he's strong here and I'll look forward to seeing what he does next.

Amen. I hope he stops taking other clients so he can get moving on the research. I thought his discovery about Box's involvement was going to light a fire under his ass. Less giddiness about "being in the right place at the right time" and more elbow grease, please.

I never saw TRF but I did she Ahmed in "Trishna", with Frieda Pinto, which I really enjoyed. Depressing but beautifully shot and both leads were good. And I totally agree about Stone. I get the "right place, right time" angle initially but I want to see him realize that this isn't a case out of his depth and it starts to become an obsession because he realizes either Naz is innocent or becomes conflicted because of his belief in his guilt. 

[Princess Sparkle]

8 hours ago, saoirse said:

That said - the victim's stepfather is pretty shady looking at this point, although I suspect that was intentional.

For some reason, the way the step-father was talking about the victim and her boyfriends made me immediately think either "Oh, he sexually assaulted her when she was a teenager" or "they (consensually) slept together the prior year when her mom was sick". But granted, that could be because I've watched a lot of episodes of SVU, but at the very least, I also got a very shady vibe off of him. 

[Drogo]

As an avid Boardwalk Empire watcher, I kept waiting for Don "The Evil Stepfather" Taylor to let out a Mickey Doyle giggle.

Spoiler

 

Something was not-right about his "It's not her"/"It's her."  Wouldn't someone who cared for her have a more visceral reaction to coroner's report photos?

Andrea was early-to-mid 20's and Don looks maybe 40.  Her mother (dec.) was clearly very wealthy, and it would seem older than Don. 

[preeya]

8 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

What's on Jack's feet? 

Bad case of eczema. I can sympathize with him as I've been plagued with it throughout my life. Very itchy and annoying. When it's at it's worst, I would rather have some sort of pain rather than the itch.  All that said, I'm at a loss as to why they would add this distraction to this story. I get that Turturro is playing a Colombo-like schlub but is the eczema really necessary?

Edited July 18, 2016 by preeya

[Princess Sparkle]

34 minutes ago, preeya said:

Bad case of eczema. I can sympathize with him as I've been plagued with it throughout my life. Very itchy and annoying. When it's at it's worst, I would rather have some sort of pain rather than the itch.  All that said, I'm at a loss as to why they would add this distraction to this story. I get that Turturro is playing a Colombo-like schlub but is the eczema really necessary?

I believe the eczema is a holdover from the original series, not something they specifically created for John Turturro.   Though, without watching the original series, I can't speak to how much of a plot point it was.  

What is striking to me is that I feel like the character John Turturro is playing is so perfect to him, and yet I'm wondering how the character would've looked had James Gandolfini played him (or Robert DeNiro, the original replacement).  While I love James Gandolfini, I actually think this role works better with John Turturro in there - while Gandolfini probably wouldn't have played the character as schlubby, I think "schlub" actually works really well here.  Which makes me wonder what kind of route they would've gone with James Gandolfini in there.    

[numbnut]

3 hours ago, The Hound Lives said:

10 hours ago, numbnut said:

 If he's guilty, the show is hiding it really well.

At this point, I don't think he even knows if he is guilty or not. There is a pocket of time he doesn't remember. Unless, like you said, he is hiding it and mind fucking us all. It just seems so outside his nature as we have seen it. Maybe that is the twist in it all. 

Just to clarify, I think Price and Zaillian are doing a great job of hiding his guilt, not the character. At this point, I don't think Naz is intentionally hiding anything. That would be a cheap and unbelievable plot twist if it turns out he's been faking his amnesia.

Quote

Something was not-right about his "It's not her"/"It's her."  Wouldn't someone who cared for her have a more visceral reaction to coroner's report photos?

His odd reaction to the photos could make sense if he's the killer, like he could be stunned at seeing the aftermath of his anger.

Quote

For some reason, the way the step-father was talking about the victim and her boyfriends made me immediately think either "Oh, he sexually assaulted her when she was a teenager" or "they (consensually) slept together the prior year when her mom was sick". But granted, that could be because I've watched a lot of episodes of SVU, but at the very least, I also got a very shady vibe off of him.

I had the same thoughts. A sexual relationship wouldn't surprise me but I hope the show has a stronger twist.

Edited July 18, 2016 by numbnut

[Neurochick]

11 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

My take is that the detective knows something is off inhaler found there and in his heart he must realize that an asthmatic could never have done that intense attack  and didn't policeman say something about the cat being itchy and that would be a big no-no for someone with asthma or allergies too.  I also am loving this show so much about it is so fascinating. Stepfather not recognizing her at first was strange. Guess mom was rich and left Andrea the house.

Not necessarily rich.  Depends on when the brownstone was purchased.  I went to school with kids who lived in brownstones on the upper west side, and most of them were really upper middle class, no Wall Street types I mean. 

I'm confused why no one has asked why Naz doesn't seem to have a lot of blood on him.  If there's no blood on him, wouldn't there be blood in the bathroom?  On towels?  Where are they?  The murder was so brutal, there was blood on the lamp shade.  No way Naz would have been clean after a killing like that. 

[meep.meep]

I didn't get any sexual vibe off the step father.  Just someone who had been dealing with her problems for a very long time, and apparently she had a lot of problems.  You can hear it in his responses on the phone call.  He figures she got picked up for something and needs to be bailed out or taken care of. 

Where's her rap sheet?  You really don't know anything about her at all.

The lack of blood on Naz is telling.  Whoever did the killing should be covered in her blood.

[iMonrey]

I was a little disappointed with this one, it just wasn't as interesting as the first episode. The whole "night of" ordeal and the aftermath was compelling, whereas this chapter sort of felt like any other crime procedural. I'm still in though. I appreciate the straightforward narrative and the lack of gimmicks and pretension.

There is definitely something weird about the fact that the stepfather said the photos weren't of his stepdaughter until the detective told him he'd have to see the actual body and then he decided it was her. I don't know, maybe he thought he could get away with leaving the body unidentified as a Jane Doe but then panicked when he found out he'd actually have to see the body itself. 

Does anyone know how many episodes there are?

(e.t.a. never mind - eight episodes total.)

Edited July 18, 2016 by iMonrey

[AuntiePam]

56 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

The lack of blood on Naz is telling.  Whoever did the killing should be covered in her blood.

I haven't watched this episode yet, so apologies if we learned more about the time between Naz in bed with Andrea and then waking up at the kitchen table -- but he could have taken a shower.  If he was naked during the murder, there'd be no blood on his clothes.  Kill her, shower, put clothes on. 

[clb1016]

If we can believe movies and TV, the forensics team checks sink and tub drains for blood residue.  Box certainly noticed the extensive blood spatter; he also noticed that the victim still had all her jewelry.  Whether that will have any bearing on the theory of the crime, I don't know.  But I do like the fact that (at least so far) there's more showing than telling.  The character doesn't say something out loud that's clearly only for the edification of the audience.

[Margherita Erdman]

8 hours ago, Drogo said:

Something was not-right about his "It's not her"/"It's her."  Wouldn't someone who cared for her have a more visceral reaction to coroner's report photos?

 

5 hours ago, numbnut said:

His odd reaction to the photos could make sense if he's the killer, like he could be stunned at seeing the aftermath of his anger.

My read was that he wished to stay in denial, and/or uninvolved, a bit longer, but when they called his bluff and were about to lead him to the body itself, he caved and made the ID. I thought it was beautifully written and played in its  ambiguity — shock? revulsion? grief? guilt? numbness? all of the above? It all remains possible the way the scene has been presented.

5 hours ago, Princess Sparkle said:

I believe the eczema is a holdover from the original series, not something they specifically created for John Turturro.   Though, without watching the original series, I can't speak to how much of a plot point it was.  

What is striking to me is that I feel like the character John Turturro is playing is so perfect to him, and yet I'm wondering how the character would've looked had James Gandolfini played him (or Robert DeNiro, the original replacement).  While I love James Gandolfini, I actually think this role works better with John Turturro in there - while Gandolfini probably wouldn't have played the character as schlubby, I think "schlub" actually works really well here.  Which makes me wonder what kind of route they would've gone with James Gandolfini in there.    

Even though it seems I am maybe the only other person watching this show besides Sarah who watched the original, I wonder if we could have a thread (saoirse? another mod?) dedicated to compare and discuss and speculate differences and departures from the original. I for instance would love to discuss

Spoiler

how the narrative opportunities offered by the barrister-solicitor split because of the U.K. court system that won't be available here (which resolved some of the dilemmas set up by Stone's very odd character) and I am so very curious how differently that might play out

but it seems both potentially spoilerish and inappropriate for the regular spec thread.

In addition, in the first episode thread someone spoiler tagged a conclusion drawn from the IMDb discussion boards about the resolution of the original series which was just flat out wrong but again I didn't feel it was the right place to engage that. Also far be it from me to impugn the quality of discussion and analysis over at the IMDb boards ;)

[Superpole2000]

5 hours ago, AuntiePam said:

I haven't watched this episode yet, so apologies if we learned more about the time between Naz in bed with Andrea and then waking up at the kitchen table -- but he could have taken a shower.  If he was naked during the murder, there'd be no blood on his clothes.  Kill her, shower, put clothes on. 

That is the magical blackout period, and it's very intriguing to me. If he thought enough to shower and clean up the evidence from his body then I can't see any reason for him to still be in the house afterward. I would think the adrenaline of trying to hide a murder would keep someone from passing out or stopping for a rest at the murder scene. When Naz came to, he was sitting at a kitchen table, on a separate floor, with the refrigerator open...and he was wearing a shirt again after clearly not wearing clothes during the sex. His jacket and other things were still upstairs. This seems much more likely to be a post-sex trip downstairs for a drink/snack then a post-murder coverup.

I guess he could have killed her without getting blood all over him, but that seems unlikely. He did, of course, have scratches on his back and blood from her hand, which was bleeding from the knife game. The sex scene made a point of including a few moments where she had her hands all over him.

My thoughts on just this episode were that it was a bit of a letdown. Suspense and drama were in short supply. The realism was there, though, and I hope this is just the calm before the storm.

Also, I'm not sure how much more time needs to be devoted to eczema. Probably none.

[bagatelle]

10 hours ago, Princess Sparkle said:

What is striking to me is that I feel like the character John Turturro is playing is so perfect to him, and yet I'm wondering how the character would've looked had James Gandolfini played him (or Robert DeNiro, the original replacement).  While I love James Gandolfini, I actually think this role works better with John Turturro in there - while Gandolfini probably wouldn't have played the character as schlubby, I think "schlub" actually works really well here.  Which makes me wonder what kind of route they would've gone with James Gandolfini in there.    

Thank goodness it didn't end up being Robert De Niro.  He's so repetitive and recognizable in his roles these days, I wouldn't have been able to buy into his character at all. 

I agree, John Turturro  is playing it perfectly. 

[AuntiePam]

WebMD talks about a "fugue state" -- could explain Naz's behavior.  Snippage:

Quote

What Are the Symptoms of Dissociative Fugue?

Inability to recall past events or important information from the person's life

What Causes Dissociative Fugue?

Dissociative fugue has been linked to severe stress, which might be the result of traumatic events -- such as war, abuse, accidents, disasters, or extreme violence -- that the person has experienced or witnessed. The use or abuse of alcohol and certain drugs also can cause fugue-like states, such as alcohol-induced "blackouts."

[Margherita Erdman]

3 hours ago, Superpole2000 said:

My thoughts on just this episode were that it was a bit of a letdown. Suspense and drama were in short supply. The realism was there, though, and I hope this is just the calm before the storm.

Also, I'm not sure how much more time needs to be devoted to eczema. Probably none.

The breakneck pace of events slowed to a crawl this episode, but I found it appropriate given that this marked the transition to Naz's incarceration. As soon as bail was denied outright (hello Kevin Pollak! too bad you'll only be the arraignment judge!), my heart sank knowing this was going to be the start of the descent into hell at Riker's and whatever Naz might have to do to survive there. Since this is 8 episodes long (and putting aside what I can guess based on the original), I think we should settle in for a deep-dive exploration of Naz as accused (or even convicted) and not a quickly resolved mystery.

The eczema is a little much, I agree, and it is killing me too as I have a recurring/remitting autoimmune condition of my own (and I'm with preeya, and contemporary neuroscience, that itch can be worse than pain sometimes) — we've got the sandals, the chopstick, and now shopping at Duane Reade or whatever to stock up on creams, topped off with the "concern" of his client and the more sincere concern of his ex-wife. I'm not sure any symbolic value (or associated itchy feeling) is worth all this business. But if it forces the realization that Naz needs a fancier (or at least more social presentable/conventional) lawyer to assist or replace Stone at trial, well, maybe.

[kieyra]

A few thoughts--

I'm not as enchanted by the Naz actor as some. Yes, he has large pretty eyes (they say so textually, in the show itself), but I don't agree he's expressing much range with them. He looks like a stunned bunny most of the time. Yes, many of us would in those circumstances, but I'm not getting the sense of visceral terror and panic I would expect. Just confusion. I'm not sure we've even seen him cry--which seems worth noting. Then again, his parents haven't cried either. Cultural differences, or have I watched too many overwrought crime procedurals?

Not sure if this will follow a traditional whodunnit. If so it can't be stepdad. You don't introduce the killer in episode two. Weirdly, my money has been on the neighbor who inserted himself into the investigation. But I'm not sure it's ever going to be that kind of show, or that we get to find out the truth. (Hello, Rectify.)

I don't think it was Trevor's buddy. Way too obvious. 

They seem to still be processing the crime scene. Maybe they haven't gotten around to checking for blood cleanup.

[Drogo]

7 hours ago, Margherita Erdman said:

Even though it seems I am maybe the only other person watching this show besides Sarah who watched the original, I wonder if we could have a thread (saoirse? another mod?) dedicated to compare and discuss and speculate differences and departures from the original. I for instance would love to discuss

  Reveal hidden contents

how the narrative opportunities offered by the barrister-solicitor split because of the U.K. court system that won't be available here (which resolved some of the dilemmas set up by Stone's very odd character) and I am so very curious how differently that might play out

but it seems both potentially spoilerish and inappropriate for the regular spec thread.

Great idea, @Margherita Erdman ... While I'm far less talented and lovely than my partner @saoirse, I've created just such a place here.  I look forward to reading your insights.

[AuntiePam]

I wonder if the eczema is emphasized to show us that John is also an outsider, different, that maybe he's experienced some mild persecution.  The woman who changed her seat on the subway -- he's probably had potential clients look at his feet and choose another lawyer.  What does he do in cold weather?  That must be miserable. 

[clb1016]

8 hours ago, Margherita Erdman said:

The breakneck pace of events slowed to a crawl this episode, but I found it appropriate given that this marked the transition to Naz's incarceration. As soon as bail was denied outright (hello Kevin Pollak! too bad you'll only be the arraignment judge!), my heart sank knowing this was going to be the start of the descent into hell at Riker's and whatever Naz might have to do to survive there. Since this is 8 episodes long (and putting aside what I can guess based on the original), I think we should settle in for a deep-dive exploration of Naz as accused (or even convicted) and not a quickly resolved mystery.

The arraignment judge was played by Ned Eisenberg, who appeared in about a gazillion episodes of Law & Order, usually as a defense attorney.

I never saw the British original, but I don't think the point of this series is simply a whodunnit, especially with Richard Price as the writer.  I think it's more of an exploration of the criminal justice system.  The point was already made by Det. Box that they're all cogs in the same machine.  Naz--whatever the verdict in court, or whether he's in fact innocent or guilty--will emerge from this experience a very changed man.  His family will also emerge with a different view of the American justice system.   Everyone else (police, attorneys for both sides, judges) will keep the wheels of the system turning.

[numbnut]

11 hours ago, kieyra said:

Not sure if this will follow a traditional whodunnit. If so it can't be stepdad. You don't introduce the killer in episode two.

I think the show is unfolding like a plot-driven feature, so the killer would be referenced in Act 1 (for an eight-episode miniseries, Act 1 would be the first two eps). We don't have to meet the killer in person; we can just know that he/she exists in the story (e.g. the victim could mention something related to someone specific; Naz, Box or Stone could notice a clue related to someone specific, etc.). I expect something big will happen near the end of episode four.

11 hours ago, kieyra said:

I'm not as enchanted by the Naz actor as some. Yes, he has large pretty eyes (they say so textually, in the show itself), but I don't agree he's expressing much range with them. He looks like a stunned bunny most of the time. Yes, many of us would in those circumstances, but I'm not getting the sense of visceral terror and panic I would expect. Just confusion. I'm not sure we've even seen him cry--which seems worth noting. Then again, his parents haven't cried either. Cultural differences, or have I watched too many overwrought crime procedurals?

Naz was definitely shocked and panicked by the murder, but I'm starting to wonder if he could be the subtle beast. Maybe he's shocked about his ability to commit such a heinous crime? I'm intrigued that the "stunned bunny" could actually be the killer, but I hope that's not the case.

Edited July 19, 2016 by numbnut

[kieyra]

25 minutes ago, numbnut said:

Naz was definitely shocked and panicked by the murder, but I'm starting to wonder if he could be the subtle beast. Maybe he's shocked about his ability to commit such a heinous crime? I'm intrigued that the "stunned bunny" could actually be the killer, but I hope that's not the case.

His delivery of that phrase, when he was parroting it back to his parents, was the first time I started really wondering about him.

And if I was meant to--well done, show and actor. 

[djsunyc]

if nas is the killer, then this goes the route of that ed norton movie primal fear.

[Margherita Erdman]

3 hours ago, clb1016 said:

The arraignment judge was played by Ned Eisenberg, who appeared in about a gazillion episodes of Law & Order, usually as a defense attorney.

I never saw the British original, but I don't think the point of this series is simply a whodunnit, especially with Richard Price as the writer.  I think it's more of an exploration of the criminal justice system.  The point was already made by Det. Box that they're all cogs in the same machine.  Naz--whatever the verdict in court, or whether he's in fact innocent or guilty--will emerge from this experience a very changed man.  His family will also emerge with a different view of the American justice system.   Everyone else (police, attorneys for both sides, judges) will keep the wheels of the system turning.

Thanks for the correct credit on the actor. Apologies to Ned Eisenberg — all these years on all those episodes of the various L&O iterations I have carelessly thought he was someone else. I have a teensy bit of face blindness but there is a resemblance right? Anyway, he was awesomely cast as the judge.

And I think you are dead on with everything you have to say about the conception of the series as about the justice system writ large rather than Naz"s case in particular. I suspect that is what drew Richard Price to the project to begin with.

It struck me for some reason, watching the shot of the prisoner transport bus going across the bridge, looking up from below, that we had already left the victim long behind, and felt like I had the tiniest glimpse of what victims' families must feel once the machinery of investigation and prosecution gets going and it's all about the adversarial process and cynical as hell. 

[numbnut]

30 minutes ago, djsunyc said:

if nas is the killer, then this goes the route of that ed norton movie primal fear.

If Naz is guilty, I don't think the murder was premeditated and that he's feigning an innocent persona like Norton's character in Primal Fear. I also don't think the show would throw in a split-personality hook, especially after the second episode.

[clb1016]

34 minutes ago, Margherita Erdman said:

It struck me for some reason, watching the shot of the prisoner transport bus going across the bridge, looking up from below, that we had already left the victim long behind, and felt like I had the tiniest glimpse of what victims' families must feel once the machinery of investigation and prosecution gets going and it's all about the adversarial process and cynical as hell. 

Great insight.  It's no longer about the victim, really.  It's about which side wins (note that that's the only thing the DA cares about--will it be a win for her).  Again, I never saw the original and don't know what's coming.  Ideally, Det. Box really wants justice for the victim, not just a conviction at any cost.

[AuntiePam]

6 hours ago, kieyra said:

His delivery of that phrase, when he was parroting it back to his parents, was the first time I started really wondering about him.

And if I was meant to--well done, show and actor. 

That may well be!  Naz repeating "He's a subtle beast" may also be a sign of how this experience is starting to affect him.  He repeats a negative remark.  It's not quite defensive, or antagonistic, but it's close.  It made me wonder what else he's going to pick up while he's incarcerated.  We can be sure that Hightower (the guy who beat up on the prisoner who was sick) will be an influence. 

[kay1864]

On 7/18/2016 at 11:28 AM, Neurochick said:

I'm confused why no one has asked why Naz doesn't seem to have a lot of blood on him.  If there's no blood on him, wouldn't there be blood in the bathroom?  On towels?  Where are they?  The murder was so brutal, there was blood on the lamp shade.  No way Naz would have been clean after a killing like that. 

I thought the same thing.  And her blood on him (scratches, hand prints) may actually help in his defense--with the photos the police took, Stone can ask why the blood from sex is the only blood on him.

Weird that Naz passed out with the fridge open.  Even in a drugged state, most people automatically close the fridge door after getting a drink or snack.  Also, was the kitchen in the basement?  He went up a few stairs to get to the living room.  Odd place architecturally for a kitchen.

Stone may have a hard time getting paid by Naz' parents, since the cab is out of commission for a day or two, and who knows when they'll get their laptop back.  If his dad is with a cab company, they might well fire him for being unavailable.  But it sounded like maybe he's just in a partnership with two other guys.  Is that a normal thing in NYC, not being part of a cab company?

Glad that Naz finally took Stone's advice to heart and didn't talk to Box any more.

We didn't see Box read him his rights.  Naz told Stone that he did--but we don't know if it was before or after Naz started talking.  OTOH Stone said that Box was careful about staying just within the rules, so I'm guessing before.  

Odd that when they pulled him over, the male officer was going to cut him loose, when the female said he was intoxicated--they were deciding on taking him with them vs letting him walk.  What cop lets a DWI drive away?

Why were they still on duty when their shift ended two hours earlier?  Did I mishear that?  

[The Hound Lives]

I read this speculation on another board and was going to put it in the speculation thread but it doesn't look like there is much action there and want others thoughts. 

This would be maybe a wee bit too "Hollywood" for this show, as I have a feeling they are trying to buck trends for serial crime drama, but this asshole (I say this in jest because if he's right, I will be pissed) mentioned his prediction that... 

Spoiler

Naz will die in prison of a severe asthma attack. Of course, right before key evidence is revealed that clears his name. I know...I know...way too Hollywood but his asthma has been kind of thrust forward in the first two episodes, much like Jon's eczema. Maybe both conditions are a bit of focus, not because of how they feed the plot but how they round out the characters. The burdens, no matter how small to us, are significant to their arcs. Just like in real life. 
I am preparing to cry even if this prediction does read like fan-fic. 

[Jodithgrace]

Quote

Stone may have a hard time getting paid by Naz' parents, since the cab is out of commission for a day or two, and who knows when they'll get their laptop back.

I don't think that Stone's ill concealed glee at getting Naz' case has to do with money. He knows that Naz' parents aren't rich, by any means, and money doesn't seem to be his big motivator. I just think that this will be a high profile case, and his work might actually be seen by somebody other than night court clients and judges. It's like an actor who has been doing nothing but local summer stock, suddenly getting a role on Broadway. People will see him. He might get other, more visible cases and a bit of recognition. If he wins..if he loses, he slides right back down to obscurity.

[The Hound Lives]

51 minutes ago, Jodithgrace said:

I don't think that Stone's ill concealed glee at getting Naz' case has to do with money. He knows that Naz' parents aren't rich, by any means, and money doesn't seem to be his big motivator. I just think that this will be a high profile case, and his work might actually be seen by somebody other than night court clients and judges. It's like an actor who has been doing nothing but local summer stock, suddenly getting a role on Broadway. People will see him. He might get other, more visible cases and a bit of recognition. If he wins..if he loses, he slides right back down to obscurity.

I wonder if there is something in Stone's past that happened, resulting in him being resigned to such low-level, ambulance chasing type clients and crimes. His ex seemed concerned about the type of case and it didn't feel like she was worried he wasn't a good enough lawyer to do the job but I can't help but think he, at one time, had a case that maybe he seriously botched resulting in his "fall from grace". 
I wonder if he was an up-and-coming lawyer with a great pedigree that really screwed something up. He was adamant that Naz not give him details, instead waiting on the prosecution to make the first move before they establish their story. That seems really odd. Lawyers are all about the fine details and spinning those "facts" to suit their client. Maybe he had a client that he knew was guilty of something heinous and got them off, only to have them offend again. Maybe he got busted for withholding evidence. Who knows...I just feel there is more to the "washed up Lawyer makes the big time" angle. 
And Naz is the unassuming guinea pig in Stone's attempt to re-establish his status. Damn, I cannot wait for Sunday. 

[clb1016]

Your theater analogy is a good one and, in this series, there's an example in reverse.  Bill Camp, who plays Det. Box, has been a mainstay of New York theater (both on and off Broadway) for years; he was nominated for a Tony this past season for his work in The Crucible.  But more people will see him in this series than have ever seen him on stage.  As a bonus, it probably pays better, too.

[kieyra]

4 hours ago, kay1864 said:

I thought the same thing.  And her blood on him (scratches, hand prints) may actually help in his defense--with the photos the police took, Stone can ask why the blood from sex is the only blood on him.

Weird that Naz passed out with the fridge open.  Even in a drugged state, most people automatically close the fridge door after getting a drink or snack.  Also, was the kitchen in the basement?  He went up a few stairs to get to the living room.  Odd place architecturally for a kitchen.

I'm not from NYC but they mentioned that her house was a 'brownstone', and I think that can mean they are multi-level units that may have the kitchen on one floor but the main living areas on another. 

And jumping off your post to revisit the 'why was there no blood on him'...

1) He was naked when they got in bed together. So if he DID kill her, he did it while naked.

2) And if he cleaned up in the bathroom, then to the best of my knowledge, in neither episode so far have we seen a bathroom, nor heard the detectives discuss a bathroom. Anyone? Am I wrong? If not, I think that angle is still forthcoming. The timeline is still pretty tight--they might have not processed the bathroom yet. 

3) Side note for people who may have missed it (not saying the person I'm quoting above missed it, just pointing it out), the blood on Naz's hand is from when he grabs the stair-rail post on his way out of the apartment. It was originally deposited by Andrea on her way up the stairs after her hand was stabbed. (I noticed this on the second viewing of the pilot.) I'm not sure there's any conceivable way they will differentiate that from the murder blood, but no idea. 

Edited July 20, 2016 by kieyra

[Jodithgrace]

One thing I forgot to mention that I loved in this episode. There were a lot of subtle jokes, but my favorite was the Black kid who gets sentenced to three years after the fraud case ahead of him gets 18 months. He asks Stone, "How come I didn't get Jew time?" "You want to get Jew time? Do Jew crime." So unexpected. Made me laugh out loud.

Edited July 20, 2016 by Jodithgrace

[Ellaria]

On 7/18/2016 at 11:28 AM, Neurochick said:

I'm confused why no one has asked why Naz doesn't seem to have a lot of blood on him.  If there's no blood on him, wouldn't there be blood in the bathroom?  On towels?  Where are they?  The murder was so brutal, there was blood on the lamp shade.  No way Naz would have been clean after a killing like that. 

 

On 7/18/2016 at 1:48 PM, clb1016 said:

If we can believe movies and TV, the forensics team checks sink and tub drains for blood residue.  Box certainly noticed the extensive blood spatter; 

 

5 hours ago, kieyra said:

And jumping off your post to revisit the 'why was there no blood on him'...

1) He was naked when they got in bed together. So if he DID kill her, he did it while naked.

2) And if he cleaned up in the bathroom, then to the best of my knowledge, in neither episode so far have we seen a bathroom, nor heard the detectives discuss a bathroom. Anyone? Am I wrong? If not, I think that angle is still forthcoming. The timeline is still pretty tight--they might have not processed the bathroom yet. 

I, too, am curious about the lack of blood on Naz's body and why that is not (yet) a point of contention. Judging by the crime scene, he should have been covered in blood. And according to L&O:SVU and CSI - if they are to be believed - forensics teams do check showers, etc for blood residue because a murderer will try to wash off the blood. Maybe that's not "real life" forensic procedure. Or maybe the bathroom hasn't been processed yet, as kieyra says. Regardless, that's a brutal crime scene and, at some point, the lack of blood evidence on Naz has to come up.

I am also curious about the knife. Perhaps I need to re-watch E1 but, as I recall, the knife that Naz grabs is still lying on the table with the limes and tequila. If it is the murder weapon, then the murderer placed it back on the table after killing her? The existence of her blood on the knife doesn't necessarily mean that it was the knife that killed her. I assume that it has not been tested yet because forensics would indicate whether or not it was responsible for the majority of her stab wounds.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Ellaria Sand

[kieyra]

From having watched the pilot twice:

--knife is still with tequila, on a separate floor from bedroom

--Naz is passed out in kitchen with fridge door open, wearing a t-shirt and underwear

--when he wakes up, he seems to know where he is and goes to the bedroom, where he seems to instinctively find his shirt and pants in the dark and starts getting dressed, before discovering the body

So, at some point after the sex, knife is either returned to coffee table, or never left it. Naz, if he killed Andrea, takes a shower. Either way, he then puts on at least a t-shirt and underwear and goes to the kitchen before passing out.

After finding the body, he races out of the house. Gets to the taxi, has no keys. Runs back to the brownstone, is locked out. Breaks a window, finds his jacket (keys are in the pocket) and also grabs the knife.

Caveat, my memory is far from infallible. :)

Edited July 21, 2016 by kieyra