Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[anamika]

5 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Very nice, thank you! 

Remember how haunting the "Light of the Seven" was as last year's season finale opened?  We just KNEW something crazy was going to happen.  It's one of the things that we take for granted on the show, but the musical scoring is absolutely brilliant.

I wish we had something entirely new this season  like 'Light of the seven'. The music this season is beautiful but it's mainly Ramin Djawadi masterfully combining themes and older tracks to create something new.

[stagmania]

27 minutes ago, anamika said:

The music for the R/L and D/J scene is beautiful to hear.

Agree, it's absolutely gorgeous. 

Reading through that outline, I'm really hoping some key details and nuance have been left out in the descriptions of some of those scenes. 

[Inquirer]

44 minutes ago, anamika said:

Where is this mentioned in the outline? Can you copy/paste the relevant bits?

As per the outline, it looks like Sansa finally realizes in the finale that there is no point to having LF around and kills him after reading out his crimes. Again, something she could have done either in episode one - she already knows he killed Lysa and worked with the Lannisters against Ned. Or in episode 5 after realizing Bran can see shit. 

And I still don't see any explanation for why she send off Brienne when she could have confided in her and Arya at any time and let them in on her grand plans if she had any before the finale.

In LF's final scene, where it looks like Sansa is about to call for Arya's execution only to have all soldiers turn their weapons toward him (parallel to how he betrayed Ned with his men), it says "Sansa might also bring up sending Brienne away, and how she used it to trap LF and make him think she was under his spell.  But in reality she just needed a representative for the Summit, and she no longer needed a bodyguard, because she had her sister."

It's called "playing your cards close to the vest".  Sansa didn't want to involve Brienne or Arya prematurely, since any time earlier to LF's execution might have tipped him off given the spies he has in his employ, plus she had to make absolutely sure that her suspicions about LF being the one who "gave" (in a sense) Arya the letter and trying to drive a wedge between them were correct.  As I said, the 7x07 outline has Sansa's first scene being her playing naive and baiting LF into overplaying his hand, with him suggesting she not back up Jon now that he's revoked his King title and sworn fealty to a foreign Queen, plus him advising her against Arya by saying Arya plans to kill her.*  The outline says that Sansa "does not like the sound of LF's words. At all", and then cuts to a silent scene of her contemplating, with it saying that "it seems like she's going to make her move, and that it will be to kill Arya", when of course it's then revealed that her move was to finally tell Arya, then go see Bran, then immediately take action before LF could catch on.  The scene where the court is assembled continues to read like Sansa is about to execute her sister...and then Sansa turns to LF  and drops the bomb on him.

(* = Also, the way Sansa gets this one out of him is saying that she has learned to always assume the worst of people, and asks him "What's the worst possible reason Arya might have for behaving the way she has?"  Right when she turns the tables on him, she throws this out again, asking him "Tell me, what's the worst possible reason YOU might have for saying the things you have said and doing the things you have done? I've been discussing it with my sister".  Sansa is a BOSS here, far moreso than she was last season which was just badly written - she had very little to do with Ramsay's defeat and death whereas here she has everything to do with LF's defeat and death, as Arya was truly played by him until Sansa went and talked to her, and Bran wasn't taking any initiative despite knowing everything about LF's crimes because he's beyond emotionally caring about all that anymore.)

Quote

Then LF is a pointless and useless character this season and that is not how they write this show. They give villains their due before they are killed off.

 

Sorry, but it's true.  LF has been given his due throughout the WHOLE SHOW, so it's far more satisfying that he fails utterly and miserably at the end to achieve what he wants.

Quote

LF was playing both Sansa and Arya successfully this season - Arya gets fooled by the letter and Sansa gets manipulated into sending Brienne away.

As said above, Sansa was not manipulated - she knew what LF was going for, and she made him think his ploy was successful to boost his confidence and make him overplay his hand.

If Sansa had his number from the start there was no need for any of this nonsense. Brienne keeps warning her again and again about him, asking her to get rid of him.  Instead Sansa kept walking around with him telling him every thing about her plans and her problems with Arya. LF knew where to get the letter in the first place because Sansa mentions it in front of him. Are you saying that Sansa wanted LF to manipulate Arya?

Sansa kept him around because she thought she could use him, which she thankfully realized wasn't working out once this thing with Arya started.  Btw, THAT is what I meant when I said "she had his number from the start" - not the start of the season, but the start of this conflict with Arya, once Arya revealed that she had the letter.  She knew he was most likely responsible (because, as you said, she herself mentioned the letter to him) and "told him everything about her problems with Arya" to bait him into a trap.  No, she did not want him to manipulate Arya, but once she realized that he WAS manipulating Arya, she finally decided that enough was enough, she couldn't use LF anymore, he had to die.

Quote

As for the outline, lots of things get changed when it makes it to the screen. It would be nice if Sansa actually lets everyone in on her plan at least when taking LF down.  But as per recent spoilers, it looks Like Arya is genuinely surprised.

She let her in on it before the big courtroom scene and fake-out...Arya was not surprised at that point, she knew what was about to go down, she and Sansa had talked about LF at length and had gone to Bran together to get all the info of LF's treachery.  If Arya shows any surprise during the scene beforehand, she's faking it just to twist the knife in LF afterward (and to surprise the audience).

Edited August 25, 2017 by Inquirer

[nodorothyparker]

21 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Quote

After everything Cersei has done, this is what makes Jaime turn against her? Okay, I will go with it.

I don't know what to make of the show character. She blew up the sept, her son committed suicide because of it and she called him a traitor for it. But no biggie. 

It's sad, because I actually do like Jaime (book Jaime more than show Jaime, mind you). Jaime killed Aerys for less than that. The things she has done make Aerys look like amateur hour.

I do often feel like the show is making me work harder than I should have to to rationalize the character motivation, which I realize I probably wouldn't still be bothering with this late in the game if I wasn't so invested in the book character.  Much of the writing especially this season has tended toward making it a straw that breaks the camel's back thing, which is certainly a valid choice once they decided to drop the book motivation of "Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moon Boy too for all I know," but yeah, those are some pretty big straws that have been piling up around him.  Still, though, I'll take it if this is what finally gets Jaime moving because he can't be carrying around the sibling sword to Oathkeeper for nothing.  Olenna's reminding us of it on her way out felt very deliberate.

[anamika]

15 minutes ago, Inquirer said:

In LF's final scene, where it looks like Sansa is about to call for Arya's execution only to have all soldiers turn their weapons toward him (parallel to how he betrayed Ned with his men), it says "Sansa might also bring up sending Brienne away, and how she used it to trap LF and make him think she was under his spell.  But in reality she just needed a representative for the Summit, and she no longer needed a bodyguard, because she had her sister."

Keep in mind that this is a very early outline and things have changed since then. For instance, in the outline for the early episode, we had Arya asking Bran to use the dagger to find out who hired the assassin. Arya may have figured out LF as well. That was cut out.

The key word here being might. Because that makes no sense. So she sends Brienne away after Arya threatens to release the letter to the Lords because she thinks Arya is going to be her bodyguard?! like what?!

Let's see if that makes it into the episode. 

15 minutes ago, Inquirer said:

It's called "playing your cards close to the vest".  Sansa didn't want to involve Brienne or Arya prematurely, since any time earlier to LF's execution might have tipped him off given the spies he has in his employ, plus she had to make absolutely sure that her suspicions about LF being the one who "gave" (in a sense) Arya the letter and trying to drive a wedge between them were correct. 

Why would she play her cards close to her vest with Brienne and Arya FFS?  Littlefinger is actively playing her little sister. Why would she not warn Arya about this? Are you saying that master player Sansa who is playing LF cannot have a private conversation with Arya and Brienne in the home she grew up in without LF knowing? That she actively made LF manipulate and play Arya so that she could do what? Execute LF for killing Lysa and betraying the Starks? Why did she not do this in episode one before Arya got there? Why did she not do this in episode 5 after hearing about Bran's abilities? 

Edited August 25, 2017 by anamika

[Inquirer]

15 minutes ago, anamika said:

The key word being might. Because that makes no sense. So she sends Brienne away after Arya threatens to take her face because she thinks Arya is going to be her bodyguard?! like what?! So what was the point of that Arya-Sansa scene with faces. What was Arya trying to do?

The "might" means that it may not make the cut due to time restraints or something.  But you're forgetting the order of events - Sansa sent Brienne away after Arya confronted her about the letter, BEFORE the "threatening to take her face" scene.  At the time, Sansa still trusted Arya, and the outline had it make more sense to her because Arya outright denies that she plans on revealing the letter to the Northern Lords or anyone else because this is a family matter, whereas in the show she seems to be subtly blackmailing Sansa by insinuating that she WILL show it to the Northern Lords. 

And...yeah, I have absolutely no idea what the hell Arya was trying to do in that scene either, not even the outline sheds any light on that.  The writers clearly just thought it would be cool to have Maisie Williams act dark and crazy in a scene and didn't think through the character motivations.  I'm astounded that Sansa evidently takes "OK, I was right, I can trust her" away from that scene just because she doesn't use the dagger on her.  If I were in her position, I'd be trying to write a letter to be sent via Raven telling Brienne "I changed my mind, get back on over here!"

Quote

Why would she play her cards close to her vest with Brienne and Arya FFS?  Littlefinger is actively playing her little sister. Why would she not warn Arya about this? Are you saying that master player Sansa who is playing LF cannot have a private conversation with Arya and Brienne in the home she grew up in without LF knowing? That she actively made LF manipulate and play Arya so that she could do what? Execute LF for killing Lysa and betraying the Starks? Why did she not do this in episode one before Arya got there? Why did she not do this in episode 5 after hearing about Bran's abilities? 

Because, again, if she told ANYONE (Arya or Brienne included) too far in advance to the time she arranged the big execution trap, LF could find out about it and flee from justice.  This is LF, who has been famous throughout the whole show for acquiring and knowing information that others don't.  Telling Arya and then going to Bran and her soldiers had to be a last-minute, down-to-the-wire thing to do once LF was absolutely convinced Sansa was on his side and wouldn't be actively looking to see if she would turn on him.  She needed to make him get his guard as down as humanly possible.

And she did NOT make LF manipulate and play Arya - LF did that all by himself with the letter ploy.  Again, you seem to be under the impression she was playing LF from the start of the season - I never said that, I said that only after he went and manipulated Arya and Arya came to Sansa with the letter did Sansa realize LF had crossed a line and needed to be played and taken down.  She did not do anything before this because LF had not done anything that crossed that line for her - she didn't like or trust him, but he killed Lysa for her sake and she'd accepted him back after his blunder in getting her married to Ramsay, so she didn't have a reason to scheme against him or bring him to any sort of justice yet, thus no reason to ask Bran about it.  

Long story short: Sansa's plan against LF is only two episodes long: 6x06 and 6x07.  Asking about stuff before those episodes is pointless because her plan didn't exist at the time.  She didn't make LF play Arya, LF played Arya on his own free will and that was his downfall, it's what MADE Sansa finally turn on him for good.  It was the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.  I don't know why you expected her to be the impulsive girl she used to be and run to tell Arya and/or Brienne immediately.  Being an actual player of the game means patience and being cautious...it's LF's own style, she literally beat him at his own game.  If you're still looking to pick that apart, then it sounds to me like you just hate Sansa irrationally and refuse to give her credit for anything even when she actually deserves it.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Inquirer

[anamika]

12 minutes ago, Inquirer said:

The "might" means that it may not make the cut due to time restraints or something.  But you're forgetting the order of events - Sansa sent Brienne away after Arya confronted her about the letter, BEFORE the "threatening to take her face" scene.  At the time, Sansa still trusted Arya, and the outline had it make more sense to her because Arya outright denies that she plans on revealing the letter to the Northern Lords or anyone else because this is a family matter, whereas in the show she seems to be subtly blackmailing Sansa by insinuating that she WILL show it to the Northern Lords.

Which is why I am saying that using the outline to justify that this is all Sansa's grand master plan from the beginning is a whole lot of BS. The version we are seeing is different.

Because, Arya threatens to let the Northern lords know about her letter and Sansa's response to this is that Arya would now be her bodyguard? LOL! What's the connection here? Sansa feels so safe with LF manipulating Arya and Arya threatening to expose her betrayal to Lyanna Mormont and therefore decides to send Brienne away?

And again. Why is Sansa letting LF play her little sister? Sansa talking about Maester Wolkan's scrolls in front of LF is what alerts LF to the letter and what he uses to manipulate Arya. Sansa knows this because LF is the only other person to know about the letter. Why can't she tell Arya that this is LF's doing?  Why can't she tell Brienne what is going on? Why can't she tell these brave, intelligent women what LF is trying to do with them?

Edited August 25, 2017 by anamika

[screamin]

14 minutes ago, anamika said:

Why would she play her cards close to her vest with Brienne and Arya FFS?  Littlefinger is actively playing her little sister. Why would she not warn Arya about this? Are you saying that master player Sansa who is playing LF cannot have a private conversation with Arya and Brienne in the home she grew up in without LF knowing? That she actively made LF manipulate and play Arya so that she could do what? Execute LF for killing Lysa and betraying the Starks? Why did she not do this in episode one before Arya got there? Why did she not do this in episode 5 after hearing about Bran's abilities? 

Honest Brienne's not a good liar. And Arya is still to some extent an unknown quantity to Sansa. Just because she trusts Arya not to kill her doesn't mean she trusts her to go along with every detail of Sansa's plan without screwing it up, especially since Arya's made it abundantly clear that she doesn't trust Sansa. And Sansa can't just order LF's execution without making abundantly sure that all the lords - including LF's Vale subordinates - WILL perceive it as just and not abandon them for it. That takes some choreographing and convincing theater she needs time to arrange.

[Inquirer]

11 minutes ago, screamin said:

Honest Brienne's not a good liar. And Arya is still to some extent an unknown quantity to Sansa. Just because she trusts Arya not to kill her doesn't mean she trusts her to go along with every detail of Sansa's plan without screwing it up, especially since Arya's made it abundantly clear that she doesn't trust Sansa. And Sansa can't just order LF's execution without making abundantly sure that all the lords - including LF's Vale subordinates - WILL perceive it as just and not abandon them for it. That takes some choreographing and convincing theater she needs time to arrange.

THIS.  

And again, she wants it at a point where LF totally believes he has Sansa, so he won't have anyone looking in to spy on her telling Arya, or Bran, or all the Lords, because her betraying him isn't even a possibility in his mind anymore.  "She's clearly scared and she's keeping him around and confiding in him and agreeing with him, SURELY she's back under his control, right?"  That reflects both LF's train of thought and the intended audience train of thought, which means that both are blindsided when Sansa reveals that it was all a ruse, she was acting that way in order to get him to provide her with the rope to hang him with.  It's satisfying that LF, the great manipulator, is brought down by his own pupil doing the most basic version of what he always does since he has such a blind spot where she is concerned due to his creepy lust for her.  He only truly ever saw her as an object, both an object to manipulate and a sex object that he'd be rewarded with in the end, and that blew up in his face, big-time.

Quote

And again. Why is Sansa letting LF play her little sister? Sansa talking about Maester Wolkan's scrolls in front of LF is what alerts LF to the letter and what he uses to manipulate Arya. Sansa knows this because LF is the only other person to know about the letter. Why can't she tell Arya that this is LF's doing?  Why can't she tell Brienne what is going on? Why can't she tell these brave, intelligent women what LF is trying to do with them?

Again, she isn't.  "Letting LF play her sister" would mean that LF would have to still be doing stuff to play Arya even after getting the letter to her, but he literally hasn't done a thing aside from that.  The one thing he did to play Arya was beyond Sansa's control because she did not intend for him to use the knowledge she gave him to manipulate Arya with.  Once she found out he had done that, she can NOT tell these "brave, intelligent women" immediately because it runs the risk of LF getting away, or worse, the Vale Lords turning on her for accusing LF before she has ample proof of his wrongdoing.  Just telling them, without thinking of all the consequences, is what the OLD Sansa would do, not the new Sansa.  The new Sansa bides her time, and rightfully so.  That's the way the game is played.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Inquirer

[anamika]

25 minutes ago, screamin said:

Honest Brienne's not a good liar. And Arya is still to some extent an unknown quantity to Sansa. Just because she trusts Arya not to kill her doesn't mean she trusts her to go along with every detail of Sansa's plan without screwing it up, especially since Arya's made it abundantly clear that she doesn't trust Sansa.

What? Brienne kept Sansa's secret rendezvous with LF a secret from Jon, Davos and the others. She did not let out where they got the information about the BF. And Arya already does not trust LF and you are saying that Sansa cannot get Arya to Bran and discuss what LF is doing? Or that the sisters cannot work together to take down LF if Sansa approached Arya before the whole letter business?

When the script is suggesting that Sansa trusts Arya so much that she is sending Brienne away because Arya would be her bodyguard instead?

What is LF going to do anyways? He is powerless and has nowhere to go. What will he do if he knows that Arya and Brienne are onto him? Royce hates him anyways and the Northerners are not going to help.

I can see all the familiar mental gymnastics that were used to explain away Sansa not telling Jon about the Vale army, LF, Blackfish etc. being deployed here once again to explain Sansa's inability to tell her siblings anything about anything. I wonder when I am going to start hearing about Sansa's deep trust issues.

25 minutes ago, screamin said:

And Sansa can't just order LF's execution without making abundantly sure that all the lords - including LF's Vale subordinates - WILL perceive it as just and not abandon them for it. That takes some choreographing and convincing theater she needs time to arrange.

Why can't she do this before LF plays Arya with the letter? The only thing she does that is new is get Bran to sit there and list out LF's crimes.

Why does she give LF the information necessary to manipulate Arya, wait till LF turns Arya against her, does not warn Arya about what LF is doing, sends Brienne off when she could be useful to her and then order LF's execution? What's the plan here?

Edited August 25, 2017 by anamika

[Inquirer]

12 minutes ago, anamika said:

When the script is suggesting that Sansa trusts Arya so much that she is sending Brienne away because Arya would be her bodyguard instead?

Yes, and even IF Arya blackmailed her with the letter like what seemed to happen in the final version of the episode, I can still see Sansa's reasoning - Arya makes too much of a big deal about Sansa betraying the family, it would be hypocritical if Arya went and betrayed Sansa, who is her family.  Unfortunately, then there's that stupid "faces" scene that throws things out of whack, but again, that is AFTER she sends Brienne away, not before.  If it happened before, THEN Sansa would come off as an idiot for doing so and for trusting Arya, who now just seems like she's batshit crazy, not just angry.

Quote

Why can't she do this before LF plays Arya with the letter? The only thing she does that is new is get Bran to sit there and list out LF's crimes.

Because, again, LF hadn't done anything to cross the line for Sansa.  She had no reason to execute LF before he played Arya, she didn't know about his full crimes and wasn't going to think to ask Bran about it, which is the only way Bran would share that info since he gives too little a shit now to tell anyone else himself.

Quote

Why does she give LF the information necessary to manipulate Arya, wait till LF turns Arya against her, does not warn Arya about what LF is doing, sends Brienne off when she could be useful to her and then order LF's execution?

AGAIN, Sansa did not know LF would manipulate Arya when she gave him that information.  She probably didn't even remember the letter was among those documents until Arya showed her the letter - then she remembered and realized that LF is the only one who could have known where it was due to her inadvertently giving him the info earlier.  Only THEN did she come up with her plan.

And I already said exactly why she did not tell Arya or Brienne, why she sent Brienne off, and why she waited to call for LF's execution.  You are being too obtuse to listen because you don't want to concede that Sansa actually did something right.  Not telling Jon about the Vale army was one thing, this is another.  The context is different, and Sansa not telling is much more justified here.  That's the GAME.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Inquirer

[anamika]

1 minute ago, Inquirer said:

Yes, and even IF Arya blackmailed her with the letter like what seemed to happen in the final version of the episode, I can still see Sansa's reasoning - Arya makes too much of a big deal about Sansa betraying the family, it would be hypocritical if Arya went and betrayed Sansa, who is her family. 

So then once again, why did she alert LF to the presence of the letter and let LF manipulate her little sister? Why is she not telling Arya that LF planted that letter for her to find? Why is she not letting Arya into her grand plans to bring LF down? Why did she not consult with Bran and have LF executed in episode 5 before LF played Arya with the letter? Why did she not tell any of this to loyal, trustworthy Brienne who has been warning her about LF from episode one and instead sends her away?

And she thinks Arya is going to be her bodyguard and protect her from LF, when she actually sets Arya up to get manipulated by LF with that letter?!

[Couver]

3 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I have a feeling Dany will be in red as well. It's a power color and we haven't seen her in it since she came to Westeros. I wonder if the costumers were saving it for her big showdown with Cersei.

It would be nice if she's in red and gold for Viserion. 

I'm dreading Cersei making some cutting remark about his death because I know Dany won't hit back about the death of Cersei's useless children and it will infuriate me. 

[Inquirer]

15 minutes ago, anamika said:

So then once again, why did she alert LF to the presence of the letter and let LF manipulate her little sister? Why is she not telling Arya that LF planted that letter for her to find? Why is she not letting Arya into her grand plans to bring LF down? Why did she not consult with Bran and have LF executed in episode 5 before LF played Arya with the letter? Why did she not tell any of this to loyal, trustworthy Brienne who has been warning her about LF from episode one and instead sends her away?

And she thinks Arya is going to be her bodyguard and protect her from LF, when she actually sets Arya up to get manipulated by LF with that letter?!

*Headdesk*  I am GIVING you the answers, and you just keep not listening and asking the same questions. over and over again.  One by one, then...

1. She did NOT "let LF manipulate her little sister".  She altered LF to the presence of the letter before Arya even arrived at Winterfell.  Unless you are suggesting that Sansa is psychic and knew Arya was coming, she could not possibly have given LF that information with the motive of having him play Arya.  Sansa literally had NO control over LF manipulating Arya, she only found out about it after it had already happened.

2. She is not telling anyone because THAT'S HOW THE GAME IS PLAYED.  You keep secrets, you bide your time.  She is playing by LF's rules because that's the only way to bring him down.  What do you think would have happened if she had told Arya, Bran and/or Brienne about LF's machinations?  Because I can assure you this: it would NOT have been LF getting caught and executed.  Her running and telling is what Sansa would do if she was just a naive little girl, but she isn't anymore.  She's a player of the game, and she played the game well here by playing it close to the vest until the time was right.

3. WHY would she consult with Bran in episode 5?  LF hadn't DONE anything to make her think he needed to die.  Yeah, he's creepy, but he was technically helping Sansa around Winterfell.  She considered him an ally even if she didn't like him, so why would she randomly ask Bran "Hey, do you know of any bad shit LF may have done in the past?"  She had no reason to until LF played Arya with the letter.  

4. She thinks that Arya will protect her because Arya, like her father, is honor-bound and devoted to family.  She briefly believed she may have been wrong when the whole "faces" scene happened, but Arya not stabbing her and just walking away confirmed to Sansa that she can trust Arya.  If Arya wanted Sansa dead, she could have done it there and then, easily.  But she didn't, because Sansa is family regardless of their current disagreement.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Inquirer

[anamika]

38 minutes ago, Inquirer said:

Because, again, LF hadn't done anything to cross the line for Sansa.  She had no reason to execute LF before he played Arya, she didn't know about his full crimes and wasn't going to think to ask Bran about it, which is the only way Bran would share that info since he gives too little a shit now to tell anyone else himself.

LF has done nothing that crossed the line?!! Worked against her family in KL, framed her for Joffrey's murder, murdered her aunt, sold her to the Boltons and wants her as Queen of the North as opposed to Jon. These are more or less the crimes for which she has him executed.

Brienne warns her way back in episode one about him.  Why does she think that he is going to do nothing? That right there makes her a fool. She boasts to Brienne that she knows what LF wants and yet she walks around with him telling him all her Winterfell plans. Sansa is the reason LF knows where to find the letter. She gives him free reign to get around and manipulate people - he gets Wolkan to give him the letter. Brienne  knows LF is upto no good.

38 minutes ago, Inquirer said:

AGAIN, Sansa did not know LF would manipulate Arya when she gave him that information.  She probably didn't even remember the letter was among those documents until Arya showed her the letter - then she remembered and realized that LF is the only one who could have known where it was due to her inadvertently giving him the info earlier.  Only THEN did she come up with her plan.

But you were talking about all this being Sansa's master plan from the beginning. So how could she not realize that LF would be playing her sister?

And why did she not immediately tell Arya and Brienne about her plan after coming up with it?

38 minutes ago, Inquirer said:

And I already said exactly why she did not tell Arya or Brienne, why she sent Brienne off, and why she waited to call for LF's execution.  You are being too obtuse to listen because you don't want to concede that Sansa actually did something right.  Not telling Jon about the Vale army was one thing, this is another.  The context is different, and Sansa not telling is much more justified here.  That's the GAME.

Why did she not tell Arya and Brienne? Because they are not trustworthy or because they can't tell lies? So many excuses being thrown around, I am confused...

15 minutes ago, Inquirer said:

2. She is not telling anyone because THAT'S HOW THE GAME IS PLAYED.  You keep secrets, you bide your time.  She is playing by LF's rules because that's the only way to bring him down.  What do you think would have happened if she had told Arya, Bran and/or Brienne about LF's machinations?  Because I can assure you this: it would NOT have been LF getting caught and executed.  Her running and telling is what Sansa would do if she was just a naive little girl, but she isn't anymore.  She's a player of the game, and she played the game well here by playing it close to the vest until the time was right.

You tell me what would have happened. LF is powerless. He has no allies or no moves to make other than play two tweens against each other. Royce hates his guts. The Northerners don't know him. What is he going to do?

What would have happened if she included Arya, Bran and Brienne in her plans? Brienne has already proved to be more clever than Sansa - she realized that LF was upto no good way back in episode one and she can keep secrets.  Arya is a FM assassin and Bran is a God. I am sure they can manage just as much as Sansa to play the game. The only reason Sansa realizes that LF is manipulating Arya is because she knows LF is the only other person who knows about the letter. Arya does not have that information or know about all the things LF has done unlike Sansa. So the wise thing to do would have been for Sansa to bring them into her plans.

Edited August 25, 2017 by anamika

[domina89]

Very interesting article from Vanity Fair concerning the just released soundtrack and what it could mean for the future of the characters.  The analysis of the keys and chords is fascinating.

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/08/game-of-thrones-season-7-soundtrack-finale-truth-dragonglass-jon-daenerys

For those of you who haven't heard the soundtrack, it's amazing.  "Winter Is Here" made me tear up- it is that hauntingly beautiful.

Edit:  Saw someone posted another link upthread.  Apologies.

Edited August 25, 2017 by domina89

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, stagmania said:

Really interesting music analysis and hints that line up pretty well with what we know about the finale. 

Damn, I love "Truth!" Jon and Dany finally giving into their feelings and having sex is going to be earth shattering. I cannot wait.

[Blonde Gator]

6 minutes ago, domina89 said:

Very interesting article from Vanity Fair concerning the just released soundtrack and what it could mean for the future of the characters.  The analysis of the keys and chords is fascinating.

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/08/game-of-thrones-season-7-soundtrack-finale-truth-dragonglass-jon-daenerys

For those of you who haven't heard the soundtrack, it's amazing.  "Winter Is Here" made me tear up- it is that hauntingly beautiful.

Edit:  Saw someone posted another link upthread.  Apologies.

Some days, it's just hard to catch up, what with all the new posts.

No harm, no foul.  And certainly no apologies necessary.  In fact, better safe than sorry.....it would be terrible to have missed that excellent article.  Many thanks! 

[SimoneS]

I just listened to "Winter Is Here." It is so sad! It is a dirge for the deaths of many of the characters that we have come to love.

Edited August 25, 2017 by SimoneS

[MadMouse]

Truth is amazing and has a chance to become an iconic piece of music considering what the scenes it'll be used with.

[YaddaYadda]

So I read the script that was posted upthread and something kind of caught my attention, or maybe it's the first time I pay attention to it. Bran says that Robert's Rebellion was built on a lie, does that mean we're going to end up finding out who told the lie? Or it's just one of those thing. I probably answered my own question.

[screamin]

53 minutes ago, anamika said:

What? Brienne kept Sansa's secret rendezvous with LF a secret from Jon, Davos and the others. She did not let out where they got the information about the BF. And Arya already does not trust LF and you are saying that Sansa cannot get Arya to Bran and discuss what LF is doing? Or that the sisters cannot work together to take down LF if Sansa approached Arya before the whole letter business?

 

None of that entailed Brienne looking someone in the eye and lying convincingly. As for Bran convincing Arya that the real problem is LF, not Sansa? Arya told Sansa she wouldn't even believe Jon if he told her that Sansa's intentions weren't as malevolent as she thought. Why should Sansa believe Bran will necessarily convince Arya of anything if she's already dismissing Jon unheard - the one she loves and trusts more than anyone? 

Not to mention the consequences of what could happen if Arya IS convinced prematurely of everything LF has done. Sansa has seen Arya boast imprudently of her martial skill and her list of assassinations, make angry accusations, refuse to listen to any of Sansa's defenses no matter how reasonable, leave her bag of severed faces less carefully hidden than LF did the message that he WANTED Arya to find, and - most importantly- blow off any concern of Sansa's that making the Starks fall publically into disrepute will cause their fragile alliance with the Northern lords and the Vale to break up. Why in the world would Sansa believe that Arya would be capable of following her directions and acting cautiously, after all that?

If Arya WERE convinced of LF's guilt in their father's fall, IMO Sansa would have every right to believe that Arya might again go off half cocked (as she's been doing up till then) and just straight up kill LF before Sansa has  convinced the lords of the guilt of LF and the justice of his death. Making the Starks look like underhanded murderers of the man who saved Jon's ass in the Battle of the Bastards is likely just the excuse the 'windvanes' have been looking for to wash their hands of the Starks and go home. I don't blame Sansa one bit for not taking Arya into confidence here.

[YaddaYadda]

3 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

Truth is amazing and has a chance to become an iconic piece of music considering what the scenes it'll be used with.

Gave me goosebumps the first time I heard it. And I don't even care about J&D getting together. But I'm a hell of a lot more invested in R&L.

[anamika]

20 minutes ago, screamin said:

None of that entailed Brienne looking someone in the eye and lying convincingly.

     Why would Brienne go talking to LF? Why would LF go talk to Brienne? He knows that Brienne does not like him.

20 minutes ago, screamin said:

As for Bran convincing Arya that the real problem is LF, not Sansa? Arya told Sansa she wouldn't even believe Jon if he told her that Sansa's intentions weren't as malevolent as she thought. Why should Sansa believe Bran will necessarily convince Arya of anything if she's already dismissing Jon unheard - the one she loves and trusts more than anyone?

    Because unlike Jon, Bran is a God who can see the past, present and future.  As he proved to both Sansa and Arya.

20 minutes ago, screamin said:

Not to mention the consequences of what could happen if Arya IS convinced prematurely of everything LF has done. Sansa has seen Arya boast imprudently of her martial skill and her list of assassinations, make angry accusations, refuse to listen to any of Sansa's defenses no matter how reasonable, leave her bag of severed faces less carefully hidden than LF did the message that he WANTED Arya to find, and - most importantly- blow off any concern of Sansa's that making the Starks fall publically into disrepute will cause their fragile alliance with the Northern lords and the Vale to break up. Why in the world would Sansa believe that Arya would be capable of following her directions and acting cautiously, after all that?

Arya : We should execute those Northern lords for treason against Jon

Sansa: That's not how it's done

Arya: Okay, we won't do that.

But when Sansa brings Arya in on her plans to have LF officially executed with Bran's help, Arya is going to just rush off half-cocked and kill him?

Okay then.

Edited August 25, 2017 by anamika

[SeanC]

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

7x01-7x07 summaries and outlines have been leaked at /Freefolk (some of the summaries and outlines were previously leaked). Not sure whether it's kosher to discuss the 7x07 stuff, since discussing the details of unaired leaked episodes is verboten on these boards, but they're there.

I'm amused how the Arya/Sansa scene at the end of 706 evolved from "Arya turns her back on Sansa and exits the room, without ever having touched the dagger.  She doesn't need a weapon to make Sansa afraid of her." to its final form.

Regarding the Northern plot, it seems like they've changed around some things, so I'm not sure if the specifics of when Sansa was planning to work against Littlefinger survived into the final form, but I guess we'll see.

[domina89]

56 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Damn, I love "Truth!" Jon and Dany finally giving into their feelings and having sex is going to be earth shattering. I cannot wait.

Depending on how they film this, coupled with that glorious music, it may be the second time in GoT history that I openly weep.

[screamin]

41 minutes ago, anamika said:

     Why would Brienne go talking to LF? Why would LF go talk to Brienne? He knows that Brienne does not like him.

    Because unlike Jon, Bran is a God who can see the past, present and future.  As he proved to both Sansa and Arya.

Arya : We should execute those Northern lords for treason against Jon

Sansa: That's not how it's done

Arya: Okay, we won't do that.

But when Sansa brings Arya in on her plans to have LF officially executed with Bran's help, Arya is going to just rush off half-cocked and kill him?

Okay then.

You must have access to a different scene than I saw, because I certainly didn't see Arya humbly acknowledge to Sansa that her idea of threatening to behead the lords was mistaken, or indeed concede then or at any point later that Sansa was right and she was wrong about ANYTHING. And if you think I'm wrong about that, please quote actual words of Arya's and not your paraphrase that supposedly proves your point.

As for Bran being the infallible trump card to convince Arya because of his omniscience - that would undoubtedly be effective if Arya were currently being rational. But she isn't. Her anger at Sansa isn't based on reason and IMO, after witnessing Arya's pushing aside every attempt of Sansa to explain WHY she didn't let the Lannisters  murder her at age 12 and turn a deaf ear to their threats to kill Ned if she didn't write that letter, I don't blame Sansa one bit for deciding that no amount of monotone explanation from creepy whatever-I-don't-give-a-shit-about-any-of-you Bran would be enough for Sansa to feel confident Arya could be convinced to meekly follow Sansa's lead.

LF and Brienne indeed do not like each other, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't ask her questions if he thought she knew something he didn't and judge what by whether she tells the truth, lies, or stays silent. LF didn't like Lysa, either, and yet.

Edited August 25, 2017 by screamin

[MadMouse]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

So I read the script that was posted upthread and something kind of caught my attention, or maybe it's the first time I pay attention to it. Bran says that Robert's Rebellion was built on a lie, does that mean we're going to end up finding out who told the lie? Or it's just one of those thing. I probably answered my own question.

The lie that Lyanna was kidnapped.

[Oscirus]

9 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

The lie that Lyanna was kidnapped.

How was that a lie? It's only a lie if someone knows it's true.

And Jon sent for Sansa? WTF? That makes no sense at all whatsoever. 

[YaddaYadda]

11 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

The lie that Lyanna was kidnapped.

Well, that's a shame.

[Blonde Gator]

10 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

The lie that Lyanna was kidnapped.

Yes, that's the LIE.  I think Yada's question was quite a bit larger than Rhaegar and Lyanna keeping their secret to themselves. 

But who told the lie?  IOW, who besides Rhager & Lyanna, Rhaegar's Kings Guard (Arthur Dane, Oswald Whent, Gerald Hightower), and Septon Maynard (per Gilly), knew?   Who besides the core participants knew, and not only told, but spread the basic lie?

If Robert knew, and told the lie anyway to start the war, he truly was a USURPER.  As were any of the "rebels", Jon Arryn, Ned Stark, Baratheon, and their bannermen.  Where was Tywin Lannister during the very beginning of Robert's war?  What did he know?  And when.  For that matter, what did Littlefinger hear that he shouldn't have?  This could have been the key to him figuring out that information was precious, and he could use it to his advantage at a later date....I think he was too young and inexperienced to have begun any rumors at that point, but maybe he had a first hand view of how a lie was turned into changing fortunes for some of the Great Houses.

Time will tell, alas, not this season.

[Spartan Girl]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Damn, I love "Truth!" Jon and Dany finally giving into their feelings and having sex is going to be earth shattering. I cannot wait.

*chants a la Animal House* Boat-sex, Boat-sex, Boat-sex, BOAT-SEX, BOAT-SEX!!

[Edith]

33 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

I Yes, that's the LIE.  I think Yada's question was quite a bit larger than Rhaegar and Lyanna keeping their secret to themselves. 

But who told the lie?  IOW, who besides Rhager & Lyanna, Rhaegar's Kings Guard (Arthur Dane, Oswald Whent, Gerald Hightower), and Septon Maynard (per Gilly), knew?   Who besides the core participants knew, and not only told, but spread the basic lie?

If Robert knew, and told the lie anyway to start the war, he truly was a USURPER.  As were any of the "rebels", Jon Arryn, Ned Stark, Baratheon, and their bannermen.  Where was Tywin Lannister during the very beginning of Robert's war?  What did he know?  And when.  For that matter, what did Littlefinger hear that he shouldn't have?  This could have been the key to him figuring out that information was precious, and he could use it to his advantage at a later date....I think he was too young and inexperienced to have begun any rumors at that point, but maybe he had a first hand view of how a lie was turned into changing fortunes for some of the Great Houses.

Time will tell, alas, not this season.

Robert didn't start the war. The person who went south to demand for Rhaegar after what he did was Brandon. Robert went to war after the Mad king asked for his and Ned's head, and it was Jon Arryn who called the bannermen.

If someone is responsible for the war is Rhaegar and Lyanna. In what world the crown prince can set aside his lawful wife (daughter of the prince of Dorne) and kids. Runaway with the daughter of the warden of the north, who is engaged to the lord of the Stormlands, and think that it won't result in a war?! Specially when you know your father is Mad? 

[SimoneS]

9 minutes ago, Edith said:

If someone is responsible for the war is Rhaegar and Lyanna. In what world the crown prince can set aside his lawful wife (daughter of the prince of Dorne) and kids. Runaway with the daughter of the warden of the north, who is engaged to the lord of the Stormlands, and think that it won't result in a war?! Specially when you know your father is Mad? 

Got to say I don't see how Rhaegar could have predicted that absconding with Lyanna would result in a war. Tension requiring diplomacy, money, lands, and a high substitute fiancee, yes. But a rebellion and civil war, no. Now if Lyanna was Robert's wife, maybe, but people typically do not go war over kidnapped or runaway fiancees. They just find new ones. Besides, it was Aerys calling for Robert and Ned's heads that caused the civil war. 

Edited August 25, 2017 by SimoneS

[Azi]

Quote

If someone is responsible for the war is Rhaegar and Lyanna. In what world the crown prince can set aside his lawful wife (daughter of the prince of Dorne) and kids. Runaway with the daughter of the warden of the north, who is engaged to the lord of the Stormlands, and think that it won't result in a war?! Specially when you know your father is Mad? 

I mean, I could even kind of get that part, but the one thing I truly did not get was them not TELLING ANYONE. Especially not Lyanna's family aka the not-mad people. I don't hate their overall story in general (if their wedding on screen is pretty, I might even sigh), but that part is the one that truly bothers me, cause neither Rhaegar not Lyanna were ever described as dumb people. Love doesn't make you THAT stupid. I just can't explain why GRRM who in general can't stop himself from describing anything in detail, didn't think about it. I used to think that maybe there was some sort of message by raven that never reached the people it was supposed to reach, but I'm pretty sure that was just me grasping at straws now. Does not compute.

The boatsex song is not how I imagined it, but I think I really like it and am looking forward to the scene a lot. 

I also wonder if there was maybe some stuff from the outline that got changed, because I can't for the life of me imagine that that stuff would take up 80 minutes. Except for the ice dragon in the end, there is just... lots of talking? Will Cersei monologue at us for 10 minutes?

Speaking off, them cutting out her miscarriage from the finale and possibly putting it back in next season is another instance of them changing stuff up, so maybe I can have hope that there will not be an annoying Tyrion/Dany/Jon triangle.

[MadMouse]

46 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Yes, that's the LIE.  I think Yada's question was quite a bit larger than Rhaegar and Lyanna keeping their secret to themselves. 

But who told the lie?  IOW, who besides Rhager & Lyanna, Rhaegar's Kings Guard (Arthur Dane, Oswald Whent, Gerald Hightower), and Septon Maynard (per Gilly), knew?   Who besides the core participants knew, and not only told, but spread the basic lie?

If Robert knew, and told the lie anyway to start the war, he truly was a USURPER.  As were any of the "rebels", Jon Arryn, Ned Stark, Baratheon, and their bannermen.  Where was Tywin Lannister during the very beginning of Robert's war?  What did he know?  And when.  For that matter, what did Littlefinger hear that he shouldn't have?  This could have been the key to him figuring out that information was precious, and he could use it to his advantage at a later date....I think he was too young and inexperienced to have begun any rumors at that point, but maybe he had a first hand view of how a lie was turned into changing fortunes for some of the Great Houses.

Time will tell, alas, not this season.

I don't think anyone spread the lie before the Rebellion. Rickard, Brandon, Ned and Robert believed she was kidnapped. What Lyanna did by running away with the man she fell in love with isn't something high born ladies do. I'm betting the thought that she went willing never crossed their minds once.  If my memory is right Lyanna was staying at Harrenhal in preparation for Brandon and Cat's wedding. So if the crown prince and two KG come to castle and she's with them its going to draw attention.  What I'm saying is that I don't believe there was plot to frame Rhaegar or scheming by Tywin, it was a situation that spun out of control.

 

52 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

How was that a lie? It's only a lie if someone knows it's true.

And Jon sent for Sansa? WTF? That makes no sense at all whatsoever. 

Ned kept telling the lie to protect Jon. Sansa tells Littlefinger, Lyanna was kidnapped and raped.

[MarySNJ]

2 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

So I read the script that was posted upthread and something kind of caught my attention, or maybe it's the first time I pay attention to it. Bran says that Robert's Rebellion was built on a lie, does that mean we're going to end up finding out who told the lie? Or it's just one of those thing. I probably answered my own question.

I think it just means everything. Everything about the story that Bran was told was a lie. The alleged cause of the war was Rhaegar's alleged kidnap and rape of Lyanna. But that isn't true and Ned knew it because he found her in the Tower of Joy. Jon's status as a bastard was a lie and he is not only legitimate, but heir to the Iron Throne.   

[Oscirus]

17 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

Ned kept telling the lie to protect Jon. Sansa tells Littlefinger, Lyanna was kidnapped and raped.

Doesn't  explain  how it was built  on a lie. If anything the only liars here are rhaegar and lyanna who told a lie by omission by not coming out and admitting to everything .

This is just the writers lame way of turning rhaegar and lyanna into hapless victims by using negative verbiage. 

[MarySNJ]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

How was that a lie? It's only a lie if someone knows it's true.

And Jon sent for Sansa? WTF? That makes no sense at all whatsoever. 

Ned knew it was a lie when he returned to Winterfell after the war. He told his wife and everyone else that Jon was his bastard, and let everyone believe Robert's story that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. 

I don't know. If that's what happened, Jon wanted everyone in authority to see what they are facing. And that might help to explain to Sansa why Jon gave up his crown and pledged to Daenerys. ... "You need to see to know."

Edited August 25, 2017 by MarySNJ

[GraceK]

Does anyone think it's possible that Robert KNEW that Lyanna went willingly? Pure speculation on my part, I'm just wondering if he knew Lyanna didn't love him and he convinced himself she was Kidnapped?

[Oscirus]

6 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Does anyone think it's possible that Robert KNEW that Lyanna went willingly? Pure speculation on my part, I'm just wondering if he knew Lyanna didn't love him and he convinced himself she was Kidnapped?

If he knew then ned knew so I doubt it.  Probably wouldn't have been to hard for him to  figure it out once he thought about it. Which is likely why he labeled rhaegar  a rapist afterwards.

[TarotQueen]

1 hour ago, Blonde Gator said:

Yes, that's the LIE.  I think Yada's question was quite a bit larger than Rhaegar and Lyanna keeping their secret to themselves. 

But who told the lie?  IOW, who besides Rhager & Lyanna, Rhaegar's Kings Guard (Arthur Dane, Oswald Whent, Gerald Hightower), and Septon Maynard (per Gilly), knew?   Who besides the core participants knew, and not only told, but spread the basic lie?

How about the person who fired Brandon up (haha, get it?) in the first place?

That's my best guess as to what it means anyway.

BTW, to whomever mentioned Dawn and Arthur Dayne on the last page ... they featured Dawn pretty prominently at the scene where Ned finds Lyanna dying.  So it seems that's likely to come up again ....

[YaddaYadda]

I'm gonna head on to the R&L thread before we get a collective slap down.

[GraceK]

 I just found this article that speculates just WHO is the Another in Maggy The Frogs prophecy.

http://watchersonthewall.com/cersei-lannister-young-beautiful/#more-152175

 

i thought it was extremely interesting and something I honestly didn't consider.  

[Miss Dee]

I like the reasoning, and the pointing out that the "younger and more beautiful" need not necessarily be attached to the notion of "queen."

[herbz]

I've long thought that if the 'younger, more beautiful' has to be one woman rather than a combination of Margaery, Sansa, Daenerys (probably Arianne in the books as well), then the only one who would be interesting from a literary perspective is Brienne. All the others are noted for their looks. It turning out to be Brienne and a nod to her inner nature seems like the sort of subversion GRRM would go in in for. Plus I like the idea that 150 years on from ASOIAF, 'Brienne the Beauty' becomes one of those iconic figures from legends told round Westerosi fires and nobody actually questions whether she was beautiful or not. 

Edited August 25, 2017 by herbz

[screamin]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

Got to say I don't see how Rhaegar could have predicted that absconding with Lyanna would result in a war. Tension requiring diplomacy, money, lands, and a high substitute fiancee, yes. But a rebellion and civil war, no. Now if Lyanna was Robert's wife, maybe, but people typically do not go war over kidnapped or runaway fiancees. They just find new ones. Besides, it was Aerys calling for Robert and Ned's heads that caused the civil war. 

Rhaegar ran away for months, leaving the tension requiring diplomacy, money, lands and a high substitute fiancee in Aerys' shaky hands  - after Aerys had already been amply demonstrating his talent for alienating powerful allies (like Tywin) and his growing paranoid madness, for years. So I'm really comfortable blaming Rhaegar, though I doubt the show will.

Edited August 25, 2017 by screamin

[AttackTurtle]

Ever since LF gave Bran the dagger, I think Sansa was on to LF being up to something.  I think she's just needed time to wrap her head around her three eyed raven brother and assassin sister.  Give the girl a minute to breathe.  But it was LF that brought up Brienne and I think at that point it clicked for her that LF was pitting the sisters against each other.  By sending Brienne off, LF is none the wiser that Sansa!s really building her case against him.  And once that bastard's dead, Sansa has shown that she can play the game.

[Edith]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Got to say I don't see how Rhaegar could have predicted that absconding with Lyanna would result in a war. Tension requiring diplomacy, money, lands, and a high substitute fiancee, yes. But a rebellion and civil war, no. Now if Lyanna was Robert's wife, maybe, but people typically do not go war over kidnapped or runaway fiancees. They just find new ones. Besides, it was Aerys calling for Robert and Ned's heads that caused the civil war. 

They run away and hide for months! He leave all the responsibility of his actions to his father, who Rhaegar tried to deposed before because he wasn't fit to rule. R+L might not start the war, like you said it was Aerys calling for R and N's head, but they definitely ignited the spark that fueled the fire for the Rebellion.

Diplomacy? With Dorne? After the annulment that turns both kids in bastards? After taking away the possibility from Aegon (the first) to inherit the throne? No way!

Edited August 26, 2017 by Edith

[bubble sparkly]

I thought the conversation between Jon and Theron from the 7x07 outline was very interesting. Theon talking about feeling pulled in different directions from his bio family and adopted/hostage family and Jon flat out telling him he doesn't need to choose one or the other, he can be both. Be a Greyjoy. Be a Stark.

I wonder if that will make it into the final cut because it seems like some heavy foreshadowing for when Jon finds out his heritage. He will probably decide to be "both" too.