Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[GrailKing]

40 minutes ago, doram said:

That's because he didn't sleep with his sister/wife and everyone knew this because she dressed in colours to "humiliate" him. (It didn't work).

So even in the one example of a Targaryen annulment we have in their history - it's still based on the convention of non-consummation. 

You know who else is rich and powerful? Princess Elia and the Great House Martell. 

This is a world where people have gone to war because of broken engagements and somehow we're supposed to believe a piece of paper renders a marriage with 2 children null and void as easily as that?

Martells I don't think could match the Targyrian / Lannisters in power or troops; my thoughts.

Yet the Martells did not seem overly upset, nor Eila either, but we don't truly know.

May be solved with a Bran view.

Edited August 11, 2017 by GrailKing

[MarySNJ]

1 hour ago, doram said:

That's because he didn't sleep with his sister/wife and everyone knew this because she dressed in colours to "humiliate" him. (It didn't work).

So even in the one example of a Targaryen annulment we have in their history - it's still based on the convention of non-consummation. 

You know who else is rich and powerful? Princess Elia and the Great House Martell. 

This is a world where people have gone to war because of broken engagements and somehow we're supposed to believe a piece of paper renders a marriage with 2 children null and void as easily as that?

Maybe it was a divorce, not an annulment? 

I used to think it was not possible for Jon to be legitimate, because of how the marriage laws are written in the the texts, but many people have pointed out possible clues, reading between the lines, that suggest otherwise.  I don't have a better explanation for:

1) The three of Aerys' Kingsguard, including the Lord Commander, remaining at the Tower of Joy after the deaths of Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon and Rhaenys, because "We do not flee. Then or now."  Unlike Ser Baristan, when given the chance they refused to bend the knee to the "usurper" Robert. The dialog at the TOJ makes it clear that the knight protecting Viserys was a good man but not of the Kingsguard, implying that Viserys is not the King. Why would the Kingguard not go to Dragonstone if they did consider Viserys the new King? Why did they remain at the TOJ if they did not consider Rhaegar and Lyanna's son to be the true King? I think it's because they do believe Jon is the legitimate King. I note that Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent were also close personal friends of Rhaegar, and perhaps they were more loyal to him than to Aerys, but that doesn't explain Lord Commander Hightower's presence. In any case, if they did not believe that Jon was legitimate and the rightful King, they could have found a caretaker for their Rhaegar's bastard rather than guarding him with their own bodies.   

2) Aerys kept Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys hostage in part as a warning to Llewyn Martell and the disgruntled Princes of Dorne in order to compel the Dornish troops to go to war on the side of Rhaegar. Why would this be necessary if the Martells were loyal subjects of their Uncle in Law Aerys, and Brother in Law Rhaegar? Granted, we don't know for sure why there was bad feeling between them - yet, but one possible explanation is that Rhaegar managed to find a way to legally set Elia aside in order to marry Lyanna, or maybe the King finagled a dispensation from the long-abandoned prohibition against polygamy to allow Rhaegar to have two wives since the good of the Realm required Rhaegar having three children for which he needed another wife.

Divorce would seem to run counter to social customs and laws of marriage in Westeros, but obviously something transpired or else I think the 3 KG were certain that Jon was legally Rhaegar's heir and their King, or else they would have moved on to protecting Viserys.

Now, all that said, I can't imagine it would matter if Jon was true born or bastard if his role is to fight the Others - unless he has to have King's blood to make something happen. I don't think Jon's destined to sit the Iron Throne nor would he have any desire to do so. On the other hand, it would certain change his marriage prospects if he's not actually a bastard, assuming he survives the war for the dawn. 

Edited August 11, 2017 by MarySNJ

[glowbug]

Divorce is not recognized by the Catholic Church, which the Faith of the Seven is based on, so an annulment is the only way to go if you want to change spouses other than killing your spouse. Nearly all annulments of the rich and powerful were BS and still are. In the last decade, rich and famous Mel Gibson was able to get an annulment from his first wife with whom he has five kids from the Catholic Church. Doesn't mean they didn't/don't happen or that it would be unrealistic for Rhaegar to achieve one. It may be immoral and it was definitely politically stupid, at least the way he went about it, but not without precedent in the medieval world. It makes sense that the body that validates the marriage (the church) also has the power to invalidate it. Unlike modern times there is no distinction between civil and religious marriage so whatever the church says goes and the church rarely disagrees with money and power. 

[YaddaYadda]

I just realized that the show actually decided on the annulment all the way back in season 4 when Oberyn was having that chat with Tyrion about how Elia loved Rhaegar and he left her for another woman. I had forgotten about that completely.

[MadMouse]

If any reason was going to be given for an annulment, divorce or whatever Elia's health and inability to have any more children would be a valid reason that no lord could argue with. Unfortunately in this world, a woman's main value is producing heirs. Look at how Cat inspected Roslin Frey and was concerned about her health because she was a Rosby. We also have no information about what went on between Rhaegar and Elia, if Aegon and Rhaenys place in succession was guaranteed she could have understood with the added bonus of a Viserys/Arianne match. Hell we know the Dornish are open sexually maybe she wouldn't have minded making a Rhaegar sandwich with Lyanna. Way too many things we can only speculate on in regards to the situation.

[OhOkayWhat]

51 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Well it's still bringing up Sansa in relation to Sandor Clegane. Considering how many little strands of continuity they've dropped along the way, it's telling that this is one thing that they picked up again.

I think if they wanted to include Sansan as a romantic plot we'd know already. When they want to include dialogues about a relationship (not necessarily a romantic one) the dialogue on screen is usually very clear.

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

In what case do you think a king would have done that?  The marital history of the Targaryens:

1.  Aegon I - multiple wives.

2.  Aenys I - married Alyssa Velaryon, a cousin.

3.  Maegor I - multiple wives, killed wives he didn't like.

4.  Jaehaerys I - married his sister Alysanne, had a great marriage.

5.  Viserys I - married his cousin Aemma Arryn; after she died, married Alicent Hightower.

6.  Aegon II - married his sister Helaena, who committed suicide; was planning to marry one of Borros Baratheon's daughters before he himself died.

7.  Aegon III - married Daenaera Velaryon, a distant cousin.

8.  Daeron I - never married.

9.  Baelor I - annulled his unconsummated marriage, did not want to marry.

10.  Viserys II - married to Larra Rogare, who abandoned him; never evinced any desire to remarry, as he already had heirs.

11.  Aegon IV - married to his sister Naerys; declined her request to let her take holy orders, which would have dissolved his marriage, because he enjoyed tormenting her.

12.  Daeron II - married to Mariah Martell, which marriage was the lynchpin of his main policy of Dornish integration.

13.  Aerys I - married to Aelinor Penrose, marriage seemingly unconsummated for lack of interest.

14.  Maekar I - married to Dyanna Dayne, who died before he became king; never remarried.

15.  Aegon V - married to Betha Blackwood, seems to have been a love match.

16.  Jaehaerys II - married to his sister Shaera, love match [this generation doesn't exist in the show]

17.  Aerys II - married to his sister Rhaella, definitely not a love match; much like Aegon IV, seems to have enjoyed tormenting her.

Aegon v since his kids literally  fucked him over time after time by marrying for love as opposed to for political alliances. If that option  was available to him, jaeh's marriage would've definitely been annulled.

[Spartan Girl]

So EOnline is joining the plea not to have Dany and Jon hook up. Their reasoning is that nobody cares about the Lannister twincest because they are the bad guys, but with the good guys, it would be gross and unacceptable.

*deep, heavy sigh*

It is just a fucking TV show!!!

[SeanC]

51 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Aegon v since his kids literally  fucked him over time after time by marrying for love as opposed to for political alliances.  If that option was available to him, jaeh's marriage would've definitely been annulled.

The issue was not that Aegon couldn't have done something about it, it was that they'd gone so far that he felt he had to recognize it (not to mention, since Shaera was no longer a virgin, it would have been damaging to her reputation to dispense with the marriage at that point).

[bunnyblue]

3 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Hmmmm...Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Jon also get a raven that Sansa and Littlefinger are married, or getting married or something? It seems they are setting up him to do something rash out of anger over that.

 

No, that does not happen. That is someone's unfounded speculation/wish; I think I read it here or on reddit. The only raven Jon receives while in Dragonstone is the one from Bran/Maester Wolkan informing him about the Night King's movements.

[Clawdette]

The Reddit user reference in this TIME article is in for a shocker if our spoilers are correct.  At least s/he'll know in a couple of days.

Sansa to wed Dickon?

Edited August 12, 2017 by Clawdette

[anamika]

4 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Starkbowl just another "Jon is really, really dead"

Actually, if you look at the early episode (701,702, 703) script outlines, Sansa is written as being more resentful and power hungry. She is even disappointed that Bran now gets to become Lord of Winterfell over her.  They have dialed it down a lot with what made it into the actual episodes, but last season when they were talking about a Jon Vs Sansa feud they were not kidding. Only, Jon has more important things to do and needs to start his romance with Dany, so Arya is standing in for him against Sansa. Arya recognizes that Sansa wants Winterfell for herself and decides to step in.

But the show does point out in small ways that Sansa can also be resentful and jealous. She was angry in the season finale last season when Jon was made king. She undermines Jon in front of the other houses because she thinks that he has to listen to her.  Last episode, she was like, I have to share Brienne with Arya now?! Damn. And then LF notices her discomfort.

4 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

But Arya lives with the delusion that she is some kind of bringer of justice. And she is not that.

Delusion? She is the only one actually delivering justice to the people who wronged them.

And according to the scripts, Sansa is tempted by the offer to depose Jon and become queen and Arya notices this. That's why she acts. She is not delusional.

32 minutes ago, Clawdette said:

The Reddit user reference in this TIME article is in for a shocker if our spoilers are correct.  At least s/he'll know in a couple of days.

Sansa to wed Dickon?

lol! With the show running out of viable candidates for Sansa to marry, people are getting a little desperate.

Edited August 12, 2017 by anamika

[SeanC]

3 minutes ago, doram said:

Further gone than having children? 

No, but if you are contemplating annulling one's marriage and thus delegitimizing the children of the union (potentially; I guess we don't know how the writers think that works), you clearly don't care about the kids.  Aegon V cared about his kids, and so he backed down in the end.

[shireenbamfatheon]

SanSan isn't as creepy in the books as Sandor's only in his mid-twenties by aSoS. I personally think they're endgame in the books with the way Sansa's always imagining a kiss that never happened, wishing for his companionship, comparing every man to him, bonding with the "sad old hound" in aFfC etc. The groundwork's been laid for a potential pairing of these two. In the show, it seems like they're going to end Sansa's arc with her being single as a result of everything she's experienced at the hands of Ramsay. I don't think there's enough time for Sansa to find love in the show.

I've always pitied Elia in the books, and the show having Rhaegar annul his marriage to her after she almost died birthing his children makes me loathe him like no other character. I really hope that Jon's reaction to his parentage is something in the vein of "You know what, guys? I think I prefer being Ned Stark's bastard."

[screamin]

2 hours ago, glowbug said:

Divorce is not recognized by the Catholic Church, which the Faith of the Seven is based on, so an annulment is the only way to go if you want to change spouses other than killing your spouse. Nearly all annulments of the rich and powerful were BS and still are. In the last decade, rich and famous Mel Gibson was able to get an annulment from his first wife with whom he has five kids from the Catholic Church. Doesn't mean they didn't/don't happen or that it would be unrealistic for Rhaegar to achieve one. It may be immoral and it was definitely politically stupid, at least the way he went about it, but not without precedent in the medieval world. It makes sense that the body that validates the marriage (the church) also has the power to invalidate it. Unlike modern times there is no distinction between civil and religious marriage so whatever the church says goes and the church rarely disagrees with money and power. 

Granted. But in that case it should have been a public annulment, not secret. Such a request would have gone up to the highest levels of the church and been bickered about up to the High Septon regarding who it would piss off before it was decided to grant it. It is unbelievable that it stayed completely secret till someone stumbles across a book in Oldtown.

 

2 hours ago, MadMouse said:

If any reason was going to be given for an annulment, divorce or whatever Elia's health and inability to have any more children would be a valid reason that no lord could argue with. Unfortunately in this world, a woman's main value is producing heirs. Look at how Cat inspected Roslin Frey and was concerned about her health because she was a Rosby. We also have no information about what went on between Rhaegar and Elia, if Aegon and Rhaenys place in succession was guaranteed she could have understood with the added bonus of a Viserys/Arianne match. Hell we know the Dornish are open sexually maybe she wouldn't have minded making a Rhaegar sandwich with Lyanna. Way too many things we can only speculate on in regards to the situation.

That would be true if Elia were barren, or if she'd only produced girls (like Henry VIII's wives). But she produced a proper male heir and spare, so there are fewer grounds for setting her aside. And while Dornish Elia might be okay with Rhaegar taking a mistress and begetting bastards, I really think she'd hesitate at giving him permission to beget a legitimate heir with a different powerful grandfather who might want his own grandchild on the throne instead of her children. And if she knew what was going to happen, why didn't she go to Dorne for a nice long visit with the children instead of waiting at Dragonstone till Aerys captured her?

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

SanSan isn't as creepy in the books as Sandor's only in his mid-twenties by aSoS. I personally think they're endgame in the books with the way Sansa's always imagining a kiss that never happened, wishing for his companionship, comparing every man to him, bonding with the "sad old hound" in aFfC etc. The groundwork's been laid for a potential pairing of these two. In the show, it seems like they're going to end Sansa's arc with her being single as a result of everything she's experienced at the hands of Ramsay. I don't think there's enough time for Sansa to find love in the show.

If Sansa ends the show single, which is where things seem to be headed, she'll end the books single, too. Liam Cunningham made a comment before S7 started airing that seemed to imply that all the key relationships in the books and the show would be the same. If endgame SanSan isn't in the show, it's a safe assumption that it won't be in the books, either. 

The show hasn't done the work to set up SanSan; Sansa hasn't even mentioned the Hound since Season 2, and while Sandor has mentioned or will mention Arya, he hasn't mentioned Sansa since Season 4. With both characters alive and six episodes left, it's not impossible, but given what we've seen so far and what supposedly happens in the yet-unaired S7 episodes (Sandor asking Brienne about Arya and not Sansa, Jon getting upset about having to work with Sandor), it is looking awfully unlikely.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Eyes High

[anamika]

1 hour ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

SanSan isn't as creepy in the books as Sandor's only in his mid-twenties by aSoS.

It's not creepy in the books because of the age difference. It's creepy because the Hound was an abusive asshole who lusts after a 11 year old, was part of the cabal that held her captive, gets drunk and physically assaults her including holding a knife to her throat and demanding that she kiss him. Later he tells Arya how much he wanted to rape Sansa. It's par for the course with regards to GRRM's romances in the books, what with him seeing Dany/Drogo as romantic (Thankfully the show acknowledges that shit as rape).

As for SanSan, we will know next season if/when they meet up. The show has a tendency to live in the moment - it's not well thought out or written as is evident from those script outlines. If they want SanSan to be a thing, we will get it next season.

33 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

If Sansa ends the show single, which is where things seem to be headed, she'll end the books single, too. Liam Cunningham made a comment before S7 started airing that seemed to imply that all the key relationships in the books and the show would be the same. If endgame SanSan isn't in the show, it's a safe assumption that it won't be in the books, either.

According to Cogman, GRRM had not yet decided on what to do with the Hound a few years back and they brought back the character because they like Rory McCann as the Hound and he is a fan favorite.  Even GRRM is not going to get to the same endings that he originally envisioned for his characters given his nonsensical 'gardener, no outline' way of writing. That's why there's going to be no more of the books. Show cannon is book cannon. 

Edited August 12, 2017 by anamika

[Hecate7]

1 hour ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

SanSan isn't as creepy in the books as Sandor's only in his mid-twenties by aSoS. I personally think they're endgame in the books with the way Sansa's always imagining a kiss that never happened, wishing for his companionship, comparing every man to him, bonding with the "sad old hound" in aFfC etc. The groundwork's been laid for a potential pairing of these two. In the show, it seems like they're going to end Sansa's arc with her being single as a result of everything she's experienced at the hands of Ramsay. I don't think there's enough time for Sansa to find love in the show.

I've always pitied Elia in the books, and the show having Rhaegar annul his marriage to her after she almost died birthing his children makes me loathe him like no other character. I really hope that Jon's reaction to his parentage is something in the vein of "You know what, guys? I think I prefer being Ned Stark's bastard."

I have always been baffled by people who find Tyrion/Sansa creepy, but who ship San/San. Sandor Clegane is rapier, older, and creepier than Tyrion in the books. It's a bigger age difference, plus there's the social difference, and then there's Sandor's entire personality, which is completely at odds with Sansa's. Both men are Lannister-affiliated, too, and so it can't be that.

[anamika]

54 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

I have always been baffled by people who find Tyrion/Sansa creepy, but who ship San/San. Sandor Clegane is rapier, older, and creepier than Tyrion in the books. It's a bigger age difference, plus there's the social difference, and then there's Sandor's entire personality, which is completely at odds with Sansa's. Both men are Lannister-affiliated, too, and so it can't be that.

But Sandor is hotter while Tyrion is a deformed dwarf without a nose. Plus, Sansa is attracted to the Hound, while she is repulsed by Tyrion.

[OhOkayWhat]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

Delusion? She is the only one actually delivering justice to the people who wronged them.

In my opinion, one of the main themes in Show!Arya story is Vengeance. And Vengeance is not Justice.

1 hour ago, anamika said:

As for SanSan, we will know next season if/when they meet up. The show has a tendency to live in the moment

Not exactly. If 2 characters know each other previously, and the writers feel they need to establish something about their relationship (not necessarily romantic) they make one of them talk about the other while they are separated.

Edited August 12, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[MadMouse]

3 hours ago, screamin said:

That would be true if Elia were barren, or if she'd only produced girls (like Henry VIII's wives). But she produced a proper male heir and spare, so there are fewer grounds for setting her aside. And while Dornish Elia might be okay with Rhaegar taking a mistress and begetting bastards, I really think she'd hesitate at giving him permission to beget a legitimate heir with a different powerful grandfather who might want his own grandchild on the throne instead of her children. And if she knew what was going to happen, why didn't she go to Dorne for a nice long visit with the children instead of waiting at Dragonstone till Aerys captured her?

I'm not saying I'm right just the fact that there is almost zero information about what happened regarding the situation and we're all speculating. You could be right or it could be something in the middle. One thing I disagree with, Elia gave him one heir and that was Aegon, there is no way in hell Rhaenys would ever sit the Iron Throne unless every other Targ was dead, her Dornish looks saw to that. As for Elia she wasn't on Dragonstone, Aerys made her "guest" to keep Dorne loyal.

I think something we all overlooked in this conversation is that its seems like Rhaegar was trying to recreate the Conquer and his sister wives. The names of his children and if the vision Dany saw was true, he was expecting Lyanna to give him a Visenya not a Aemon or Daeron. The dragon must have three heads. Of course if one thing is true in the series its prophecy bites you in the ass.

About Sandor in the books, if I'm remembering right. He would be considered attractive minus the burns, kinda like Edmure's friend the Vance lord with the birthmark on his face and Cletus Yronwood's lazy eye.

Edited August 12, 2017 by MadMouse

[Minneapple]

6 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

I think if they wanted to include Sansan as a romantic plot we'd know already. When they want to include dialogues about a relationship (not necessarily a romantic one) the dialogue on screen is usually very clear.

Yes, these writers are about as subtle as a brick in the head. Jon and Dany have been in like three scenes together and already Davos is giggling about how Jon is looking at her breasts. If Sansan was going to happen I think there would have been some indication of it by now. 

I think Sansa ends the show single. 

[Colorful Mess]

Part of me is like, damn right let her be single, fuck the institution of marriage. I hope she decides she'll never marry again! But my shipper voice is like, wft. As the only character who sought romantic love...to never find it fulfilled, ugh, not only is it cruel, its an incomplete arc. 

[anamika]

2 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

In my opinion, one of the main themes in Show!Arya story is Vengeance. And Vengeance is not Justice.

Every single person she killed deserved it. Hence, justice. Even in the books, when she takes out Dareon it is because he is a NW deserter.

2 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Not exactly. If 2 characters know each other previously, and the writers feel they need to establish something about their relationship (not necessarily romantic) they make one of them talk about the other while they are separated.

Jon and Dany met in episode 3 as enemies and are almost in love by episode 5. If they want to have SanSan happen in season 8, they need only two episodes to do it.

Jon and Arya share a very important and close relationship in the books - no doubt next season we will see that. Just because Jon does not talk about her does not make that relationship non existent.

Edited August 12, 2017 by anamika

[ElizaD]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

Actually, if you look at the early episode (701,702, 703) script outlines, Sansa is written as being more resentful and power hungry. She is even disappointed that Bran now gets to become Lord of Winterfell over her.  They have dialed it down a lot with what made it into the actual episodes, but last season when they were talking about a Jon Vs Sansa feud they were not kidding. Only, Jon has more important things to do and needs to start his romance with Dany, so Arya is standing in for him against Sansa. Arya recognizes that Sansa wants Winterfell for herself and decides to step in.

But the show does point out in small ways that Sansa can also be resentful and jealous. She was angry in the season finale last season when Jon was made king. She undermines Jon in front of the other houses because she thinks that he has to listen to her.  Last episode, she was like, I have to share Brienne with Arya now?! Damn. And then LF notices her discomfort.

That's interesting. The 7x04/7x05 outlines have been linked here, does anyone have links to the earlier outlines?

I wonder why there was what sounds like a consistent effort to change the initial season 7 plan for Sansa. Maybe when they actually started writing the episodes they decided that it was too late to repeat the season 1 dynamics when Arya was the one who was obviously meant to be sympathetic and in the right. Sansa paid for that for a long time and if she'd done it again in season 7, when the situation is far more serious and she is supposed to be more experienced, it's possible they felt that the character couldn't recover from the hit she'd take (IIRC, there was even a recent Sophie interview where she alluded to being a little nervous at first to share scenes with Maisie again because she'd been so hated the last time that happened). In the current situation it's possible to argue that Sansa is still petty about small stuff, like being jealous that Brienne serves Arya too, but on the basis of the aired and leaked disagreements she ought to come across as more capable and focused on the big picture than in that outline description. That's good, IMO: I prefer fandom arguments about whether Jon or Sansa was right about the heirs to one-dimensional Sansa clearly being power-hungry and hateful.

[anamika]

48 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

That's interesting. The 7x04/7x05 outlines have been linked here, does anyone have links to the earlier outlines?

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/6sys5t/extended_outlines_for_eps_13/

It's a fun read especially David and Dan taking the mick out of Kit Harington! Dany calls Jon a midget :D Now I can see why Kit calls them sadistic.

Edited August 12, 2017 by anamika

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Every single person she killed deserved it. Hence, justice.

I respectfully disagree. It seems we have a different idea about what we define as Justice.

 

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Jon and Dany met in episode 3 as enemies and are almost in love by episode 5. If they want to have SanSan happen in season 8, they need only two episodes to do it.

Jon and Arya share a very important and close relationship in the books - no doubt next season we will see that. Just because Jon does not talk about her does not make that relationship non existent.

Jon and Dany just met recently, that's why I was saying "If 2 characters know each other previously, and the writers..."

Jon and Arya know each other previously, of course, but the general audience knows they are siblings (or cousins), the audience knows they are family. With that, the writers know that this element of the narrative already exists in the mind of the audience. They just need to add a few scenes to increase its importance.

With Sansan, the general audience knows Sansa never mentions Sandor. And Sandor barely mentions her. And the audience know they (the characters) know each other previously.

Edited August 12, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[ElizaD]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/6sys5t/extended_outlines_for_eps_13/

It's a fun read especially David and Dan taking the mick out of Kit Harington! Dany calls Jon a midget :D Now I can see why Kit calls them sadistic.

Oh, interesting! Just got started, already noticed that they say Timothy Spall is Ebrose. I'm so glad we ended up with Broadbent instead.

[TarotQueen]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/6sys5t/extended_outlines_for_eps_13/

It's a fun read especially David and Dan taking the mick out of Kit Harington! Dany calls Jon a midget :D Now I can see why Kit calls them sadistic.

The part about Jaime's ass cracked me up.?

8 years is a long time to work the same gig, but it seems like they have fun together.  

[YaddaYadda]

Reading this makes things click better together, even though a lot of it has changed or has been dropped altogether.

Mel just goes ahead and tells Dany and Co everything. She doesn't hold back.

[Eyes High]

6 hours ago, anamika said:

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/6sys5t/extended_outlines_for_eps_13/

It's a fun read especially David and Dan taking the mick out of Kit Harington! Dany calls Jon a midget :D Now I can see why Kit calls them sadistic.

Jon flashes a smile that's won the hearts of "Icelandic models and Scottish baronesses." Hee, poor Kit.

[SeanC]

12 hours ago, anamika said:

Actually, if you look at the early episode (701,702, 703) script outlines, Sansa is written as being more resentful and power hungry. She is even disappointed that Bran now gets to become Lord of Winterfell over her.  They have dialed it down a lot with what made it into the actual episodes, but last season when they were talking about a Jon Vs Sansa feud they were not kidding. Only, Jon has more important things to do and needs to start his romance with Dany, so Arya is standing in for him against Sansa. Arya recognizes that Sansa wants Winterfell for herself and decides to step in.

The conflict is definitely more heightened in the outline (Jon and Sansa are described as "screaming" at each other in the 702 council scene, for instance, which sounds a lot more undignified than what happened).  The script also flatly states that Jon doesn't take Sansa seriously because she's his little sister, which, yeesh, they were really straining for source conflict there.

The bit with Bran I think is a good and understandable character sentiment (it'd be natural to be disappointed at losing a job that you were good at and evidently liked having, even if the reason was something that you were happy about on its own terms), but I expect the writers felt that the audience wouldn't be able to take that kind of nuance, and based on the history of fan reactions to the character, they're probably right.

10 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

I have always been baffled by people who find Tyrion/Sansa creepy, but who ship San/San. Sandor Clegane is rapier, older, and creepier than Tyrion in the books. It's a bigger age difference, plus there's the social difference, and then there's Sandor's entire personality, which is completely at odds with Sansa's. Both men are Lannister-affiliated, too, and so it can't be that.

I think for the shippers the main difference is that Sansa is fairly obviously attracted to the Hound (even if she herself doesn't really understand that, the sexual imagery in how she thinks about him is evident), but not to Tyrion.

As far as whether SanSan could still happen in the show, for me it's at the point where one of two things must be true:

1)  GRRM has made some inexplicable writing choices by filling Sansa's post-ACOK chapters with references to this guy even though it's not going anywhere significant.

2)  D&D have made some inexplicable writing choices by declining to do anything to keep the connection between the two characters in the audience's mind.

Either seems possible, at this point, though GRRM is the better writer by far of the two.  But if it's #2, I really don't understand why they would go about telling the story this way, particularly since it's not in accord with how they handle other separated characters.  

[Colorful Mess]

I don't know ya'll. I think we're missing a key point here, which is envisioning this scenario through the character's eyes. He's not going to be thinking about family trees or the fine print of annulments vs. divorce. I see nothing but angst and heartache for Jon.

Seems like the way it's currently being discussed is - Jon finds out he's NOT a Stark, which is all he's ever wanted, YET he'll also be OK with marrying into a House that has nothing to do with the North and pushes him even further away from his Stark identity? I just dont see it going down like that. I see Dany as a device to make things more complicated for him. It stops becoming a love story as soon as the revelation is out about his parentage. In S8, I think he will do anything to get back home/back to the North, to secure his identity. I think he's going to grow closer to the Starks after the revelation. 

I also don't see Jon/Dany falling in love, getting married, and fighting the WW together either - where's the internal conflict?

[Keener]

14 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Seems like the way it's currently being discussed is - Jon finds out he's NOT a Stark, which is all he's ever wanted, YET he'll also be OK with marrying into a House that has nothing to do with the North and pushes him even further away from his Stark identity?

But he is a Stark, just not in the way he'd imagined it. Lyanna is every bit a Stark that Ned or Benjen or any of the Stark children are/were. As we saw in S1, Catelynn was reminding people of her Tully heritage and Sansa would remind Nan that she was "half Southerner" because of her mother. While there was some push back about Sansa being a Ramsay and no longer a Stark, I think the Westerosi get over their discrimination fast. It's the same logic as to why these Southern houses are following Cersei-- she's a Lannister in their minds (or at the very least seems to hold on to that more than saying she's a Baratheon. 

I've been rewatching S1 and it's been interesting to see the real comparisons and call backs this season has made. In particular the one that stood out for me was the discovery of the direwolf pups. Theon commented that there wasn't a pup for Jon and he replied "I'm not a Stark" and cue the whining of Ghost behind a tree. This plays out similarly to Jon telling Tyrion that he's not a Stark and the dragon flying over head as if on cue. He's as much a Stark as he is a Targaryan. 

While I've been suckered in to the Jon/Dany potential, Jon's loyalty has always been his "half-"siblings and pseudo family. Right from day one he was caring for them, loving them and asking after them. That's why the Sansa/Jon reunion hit so hard. Those two literally didn't even have a proper scene together and yet many of us still got weepy at their reunion. Jon always puts his family first. Blood relations (Starks) or not (Night's Watch/Sam). To me the reveal will only go one way-- solidifying his loyalty to his family(ies).

Edited August 12, 2017 by Keener

[tangerine95]

He'll still be as a much a Stark as he is now so I can't see that being a problem,that he'll feel like he doesn't belong or something.I can see the big issue being that Ned isn't his father,he has so much pride over that fact so I imagine it will be difficult to accept.Jon doesn't seem to hate Targaryens from what we've seen and in the books I remember him admiring some of them as his childhood heroes plus one of his most significant mentors was a Targ so I don't think he'll look at them as this bad part of his identity while the Starks are the good part.I feel like finding out about his parents won't cause him to push away from Dany or fall out of love with her,but I can see it causing some drama for sure,just not anything that permanently separates them.

Imo the point will probably be to accept and balance both sides of his family tho I'm sure he'll always feel more connected to the Starks and the north since that's where he grew up.

[Colorful Mess]

So he's a Stark, but not a Stark - he's a Snow. But wait, he's also a Targaryen and will find solace in that. Then he will somehow find harmony between his Targ/Stark identity in the span of 6 episodes. It's just too many wildly different interpretations of how this character will integrate all of his identities. To cut through all of this confusion, I really think he's going to come full circle and just be who he was at the start of the series - Jon Snow. That's why I think he belongs in the North and unattached to anything to do with Targs, romantically. I'm also pondering the formative duty vs. heart conflict he will face once he reaches this conclusion, but haven't quite ironed out my thoughts on that.

Cat had years to adjust to marriage and develop a half Northern/Southern identity. Cersei had many books/seasons to actively shape her identity as a Lannister, not a Baratheon. Dany being the "last Targaryen" is about her journey - Jon won't care one whit about that. 

[screamin]

11 hours ago, anamika said:

Every single person she killed deserved it. Hence, justice. Even in the books, when she takes out Dareon it is because he is a NW deserter.

 

Not so. GRRM goes out of his way to carefully inform Arya (and us) that she did not have or need a reason to believe that the ship insurer the Faceless Men assigned her to kill in fact deserved to die. When she asked about what wicked things the man had done to deserve killing, she was told that such considerations were not her concern...and she shrugged her shoulders and killed him efficiently anyway. This shows that she had started walking down the path of sociopathy. Because I like Arya and think she had more provocation than most who walk down that path do, I'm glad the show seems to be depicting her as turning away from that path.

[screamin]

I do think it will be a loss to Jon to realize that the man he always loved as a father and an exemplar of a good man is NOT in fact his father. His replacement by a quasi-adulterous, criminally irresponsible prince who let Jon's half-siblings die in his haste to engender Jon will be, IMO, a poor substitute. (No matter what information Sam finds about the annulment itself, I doubt it will be enough to exonerate Rhaegar of those charges.)

[Chris24601]

1 minute ago, doram said:

I don't understand this. Jon has always been a Snow, not a Stark. He says that right off in the Pilot when he finds the 5 direwolves. He's not 'coming round' to that.

He may not have the name, but when he imagines a life for himself in the books it is of being Lord Stark of Winterfell with children named in honor of the dead members of his Stark family.

He may say he's not a Stark, but he's spent his entire life in a situation where he's basically been forced to say that to keep peace with Cat, but no one else thinks of him as anything other than Ned Stark's son and when they made him King in the North, the justification was because he had Stark blood in his veins.

Everything about a relationship with Dany drags him away from what he's defined as the core of himself... a Stark by BLOOD if not by name. Hell, Dany is his AUNT so even the romantic relationship with her is just dragging him further from his Stark side as, after dragons, incest is the thing Targaryans are most known for.

No I agree with the posters above... the news of Jon's heritage is NOT going to send him into Dany's arms as he changes his name to Aegon Targaryan, bleaches his hair white and mounts a dragon. Its going to drive him to reassert himself as a Stark (maybe we'll see more of Ghost... one can dare to dream).

The fact that spoilers for next episode are already setting up some discontent with Jon as King and that some are looking to give the crown to Sansa feels like setup for yet another obstacle to Jon to overcome when they learn that Jon isn't even Ned's son and that his father was actually Rhaegar Targaryan. Something that will put him into the position of having to choose between love and duty and between Stark and Targaryan... basically DRAMA!

By contrast there is NO drama to be had at all in Jon going "Oh, I guess I'm a Targ now... I'll just keep right on boffing my aunt and we can be all lovey-dovey as we ride off to fight the White Walkers on our matching dragons and co-rule the now peaceful and unified Seven Kingdoms and make lots of babies."

That's just too easy for what looks like might be a season eight runtime closer to nine hours than six. Even with as big a budget as they have, they're not going to be able to pull off more than an hour or two worth of dragons/white walkers in action overall so there was always going to be four (now probably 6-7) hours of additional time to fill up with conflicts of other sorts.

[Colorful Mess]

39 minutes ago, doram said:

What the discovery of his identity brings is his ability to claim being a Stark as a trueborn son of Lyanna Stark, and having a new family as Rhaegar Targaryen's son. He goes from not having a claim to one name to having two.

He's not going to be suddenly empowered because he'll have a claim to two families. Instead, I see him being so confused he's going to go back WISHING he was "just" Ned Stark's Bastard. He recognizes he is legally blocked from the name Stark but he will act like one in his deeds: "He was no true Stark, had never been one… but he could die like one. Let them say that Eddard Stark had fathered four sons, not three." 

39 minutes ago, doram said:

As for the timeline of 6 episodes....

My concern isn't the lack of conflict between Dany and Jon, but between Jon and himself.

39 minutes ago, doram said:

Being in love with her, Jon will care but more than that, Jon is the other Targaryen, the 'home with the red door' that Dany has been looking for all her life. He is the fulfilment of her journey.

No offense to you but I find this idea pretty gross. Your statement turns Jon's identity crisis into a win for HER. It's almost like that scene in Girls when the most narcissistic character, Marnie, makes her ex-husband's drug addiction solely about how it affects her. In fact this is the conflict I'd like to see between them - between her self-absorption and his quest for identity - so thank you for helping me realize that.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Colorful Mess

[Eyes High]

Interesting bit from the 7x03 preliminary outline about what the writers think happens in Dorne after the death of Ellaria and the Sand Snakes, for the curious:

Quote

Varys surmises that, unfortunately, with Ellaria and the rest of Doran Martell's killers dead, Dorne will likely descend into chaos. There are four or five houses there, each with a legitimate claim to rule. Their own civil war will occupy them for the time being.

I wonder if we'll ever find out who wins that civil war. 

 

Quote

Actually, if you look at the early episode (701,702, 703) script outlines, Sansa is written as being more resentful and power hungry. She is even disappointed that Bran now gets to become Lord of Winterfell over her.  They have dialed it down a lot with what made it into the actual episodes, but last season when they were talking about a Jon Vs Sansa feud they were not kidding. Only, Jon has more important things to do and needs to start his romance with Dany, so Arya is standing in for him against Sansa. Arya recognizes that Sansa wants Winterfell for herself and decides to step in.

Sansa being tempted by power may be something that will come back into play in Season 8 when Jon shows up in the North having bent the knee to Dany, or it could just be a way to fuel the short-term conflict with Arya that is resolved in 7x07.

The scene with the Northern lords disparaging Jon is not in the shorter 7x05 outline, and the shorter outlines hew much closer to the aired episode than the extended initial outlines, so I'm wondering if it got bumped to 7x06 or whether it was cut altogether.

[Colorful Mess]

1 hour ago, doram said:

Well I said earlier already that it's a win for both of them, that Aemon's words "A Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing" are referencing both of them. It's not a coincidence that Jon steps into the room the moment Aemon utters those words.

I agree this quote is significant, but I don't see it as conflating romantic aloneness with familial aloneness. She doesn't have to fuck, marry, and have a child with him to feel "less alone." Will Dany be OK with Jon being the last Targaryen while also respecting his choice to be Jon Snow? It seems like its going to boil over in S8, because in my view, he will conclude he can't be both.

1 hour ago, doram said:

Of course perspectives - and dare I say wishes? - differ. As I said earlier, time will tell. 

Yes, we differ on this and hope to return to the forums (in a freaking yEaR) to dicuss more with you once it plays out on screen. Appreciate the spirited debate :)

Edited August 12, 2017 by Colorful Mess

[SeanC]

44 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

The scene with the Northern lords disparaging Jon is not in the shorter 7x05 outline, and the shorter outlines hew much closer to the aired episode than the extended initial outlines, so I'm wondering if it got bumped to 7x06 or whether it was cut altogether.

The scene with the lords tracks broadly with what FrikiDoctor said, no?  I assume it has to be in there in some form, otherwise Arya looks like a completely paranoid moron.

[WindyNights]

On 8/11/2017 at 2:06 PM, Wouter said:

On Jon being really dead: true, there was a portion of the fans that firmly believed this (because Martin doesn't do cliché - supposedly).

As for the other thing, I've never heard of rumours of a Sansa/LF marriage. It's seems very unlikely given the spoilers we have (but I did not follow all the latest frikidoctor and co spoilers).

I mean GRRM pretty much spelled out that Jon is coming back as a fire wight in his recent interview so that's definitely not as cliche as what the show did

[anamika]

6 hours ago, screamin said:

Not so. GRRM goes out of his way to carefully inform Arya (and us) that she did not have or need a reason to believe that the ship insurer the Faceless Men assigned her to kill in fact deserved to die. When she asked about what wicked things the man had done to deserve killing, she was told that such considerations were not her concern...and she shrugged her shoulders and killed him efficiently anyway. This shows that she had started walking down the path of sociopathy. Because I like Arya and think she had more provocation than most who walk down that path do, I'm glad the show seems to be depicting her as turning away from that path.

For one, Arya is stuck with the FM because she thinks she has no where else to go and this is the only option available to her.  And before she kills him, we can see her spend an entire day trying justify the kill as being necessary because he is an evil man - hardly the signs of someone who is a sociopath.

Other than the guards/stable boy she kills to escape (For which she feels guilt and remorse) and the insurance man (For which she had no choice), the people she killed were because she thought they deserved it for what they did. Arya is not and has never been fueled by any sort of desire to kill or even because of a mental break that’s resulted in psychotic behavior. She does not lack for compassion or kindness. But Arya has always been influenced from a young age by a sense of justice and duty.

Arya killing people for survival does not make her vengeance hungry sociopath. In the show, where she did not kill the thin man - targeting Trant instead, we saw this explicitly with Lady Crane.

Sansa is also doing quite a few unsavory things in the vale - like shrugging her shoulders and going along with the torture and execution of Marion  to save her own ass. Does that make her a sociopath? Or just someone who wants to survive?

Arya's killings are fueled by a desire to serve what she sees as justice in an unjust world and a need to survive.

5 hours ago, doram said:

If anything, the discovery of his identity will elevate Jon's regard for Ned Stark from what it originally was ---- and at the same time, "lower" it when he considers the whole deception thing. It's not going to be a black/white easily-resolved arc for him where he regrets not being Ned's son. Plus, Rhaegar is generally regarded as a good man - Lyanna-napping not withstanding (which is actually kind of remarkable) - so Jon's knee-jerk reaction isn't going to be the same as if, for example, he had discovered he was Aerys's son.

Basically, it will be complicated.

Agree. The only negative that Jon had against a father he looked up to in all ways was that Ned sired a bastard - if he knew that even that was wrong, I think his admiration for Ned as a person is bound to go up. Plus he is still a Stark - like Arya, Bran and Sansa. Being Lyanna's son does not make him any less a Stark and now he knows who his mother is. That's going to make him happy. His father being Rhaegar is going to make him conflicted.

As you said, complicated. I don't think there is going to be much angst with regards to his relationship with Dany as there's not going to be much time for all that and from the show it look like they are going to be in love. They will love each other and then Jon will most likely dies at the end of it.  Dany is going to be happy for some time that she is not the last Targaryen.

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Sansa being tempted by power may be something that will come back into play in Season 8 when Jon shows up in the North having bent the knee to Dany, or it could just be a way to fuel the short-term conflict with Arya that is resolved in 7x07.

I hope this is a done thing. It's going to get repetitive and tiresome if the Northern Lords are going to be whining and complaining about Jon for the third fucking time. We have already been through this last season and this season. If we are going to get this again next season, when the wall has come down and the WW are invading, the general audience is going to be rooting for Dany to roast those annoying fuckers.

Plus, Jon now has Arya and Bran Stark in his corner, even if Sansa is going to side against him with the Northern lords.

Edited August 13, 2017 by anamika

[MarySNJ]

8 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

I don't know ya'll. I think we're missing a key point here, which is envisioning this scenario through the character's eyes. He's not going to be thinking about family trees or the fine print of annulments vs. divorce. I see nothing but angst and heartache for Jon.

Seems like the way it's currently being discussed is - Jon finds out he's NOT a Stark, which is all he's ever wanted, YET he'll also be OK with marrying into a House that has nothing to do with the North and pushes him even further away from his Stark identity? I just dont see it going down like that. I see Dany as a device to make things more complicated for him. It stops becoming a love story as soon as the revelation is out about his parentage. In S8, I think he will do anything to get back home/back to the North, to secure his identity. I think he's going to grow closer to the Starks after the revelation. 

I also don't see Jon/Dany falling in love, getting married, and fighting the WW together either - where's the internal conflict?

I agree that the disclosure of Jon's parentage is likely to complicate Jon's life even more, and may cause Jon to grow closer to the Starks. 

However, I don't see why it's necessary for there to be any more internal conflict between Jon and Dany than there already is. Right now they are trying to find common ground with two diametrically opposed views about who rules the North, and whether or not one should bend the knee to the other. The big picture is about saving the whole of Westeros by defeating the White Walkers and army of the dead. A marriage alliance would solve one problem - joining forces against the army of the dead and about who ultimately rules what when it's over*, and create other problems because I wouldn't expect the Northerners to be happy about it. 

ETA: * Assumes they also defeat Cersei's forces, and that there will be a kingdom left after in immediate threat is gone.

Edited August 13, 2017 by MarySNJ

[screamin]

36 minutes ago, anamika said:

For one, Arya is stuck with the FM because she thinks she has no where else to go and this is the only option available to her.  And before she kills him, we can see her spend an entire day trying justify the kill as being necessary because he is an evil man - hardly the signs of someone who is a sociopath.

Other than the guards/stable boy she kills to escape (For which she feels guilt and remorse) and the insurance man (For which she had no choice), the people she killed were because she thought they deserved it for what they did. Arya is not and has never been fueled by any sort of desire to kill or even because of a mental break that’s resulted in psychotic behavior. She does not lack for compassion or kindness. But Arya has always been influenced from a young age by a sense of justice and duty.

Arya killing people for survival does not make her vengeance hungry sociopath. In the show, where she did not kill the thin man - targeting Trant instead, we saw this explicitly with Lady Crane.

Sansa is also doing quite a few unsavory things in the vale - like shrugging her shoulders and going along with the torture and execution of Marion  to save her own ass. Does that make her a sociopath? Or just someone who wants to survive?

IIRC, Arya was not faced with a choice of either killing this man or dying. She was faced with the choice of either killing this man or leaving the Faceless Men. She made her choice and killed him even though her actual survival was not at stake, and without a significant amount of remorse for having killed a man who may not have deserved to die. (IMO, 'I asked if he deserved it, didn't get an answer, and thought about it REAL HARD for a WHOLE DAY before efficiently murdering him in the first degree' does not count as compunction).

You said Arya never killed someone who she knew didn't deserve it. I pointed out that simply wasn't true. As for Marion (that wasn't his name, but damned if I can remember what it was) I agree that he didn't deserve that torture (hardly anyone even in GoT does), but this guy sang and played his harp loudly to cover the screams of Sansa as Lysa tried to throw her out the Moon door...in other words, an accomplice to Sansa's attempted murder, so yeah, he kinda DID deserve the execution. Sansa is to a certain degree culpable for going along with LF in the terrible things he did to cover his tracks...and so is Arya to a degree culpable for the things she's done. Both of them took some steps down the road to sociopathy. Both had adept guides on that path. They are both gray characters and I like both of them, and am therefore glad that according to the spoilers we have, BOTH of them will manage to avoid going over to the dark side. Peace? 

Edited August 13, 2017 by screamin

[anamika]

41 minutes ago, screamin said:

IIRC, Arya was not faced with a choice of either killing this man or dying. She was faced with the choice of either killing this man or leaving the Faceless Men.

Yes, and she felt like she could not leave the Faceless men because that was the only place she was feeling safe:

Quote

“What we offer cannot be bought with gold. The cost is all of you. Men take many paths through this vale of tears and pain. Ours is the hardest. Few are made to walk it. It takes uncommon strength of body and spirit, and a heart both hard and strong.”

I have a hole where my heart should be, she thought, and nowhere else to go. “I’m strong. As strong as you. I’m hard.”AFFC

“You believe this is the only place for you.” It was as if he’d heard her thoughts. AFFC

Masks, she told herself, it’ s only masks, but even as she thought the thought, she knew it wasn’t so. They were skins.

“Do they frighten you, child?” asked the kindly man. “It is not too late for you to leave us. Is this truly what you want?”

Arya bit her lip. She did not know what she wanted. If I leave, where will I go? She had washed and stripped a hundred corpses, dead things did not frighten her. ADWD

Weese would have beaten her bloody if he had caught her in a lie, but it was different in the House of Black and White. When she was helping in the kitchen, Umma would sometimes smack her with her spoon if she got in the way, but no one else ever raised a hand to her. AFFC

41 minutes ago, screamin said:

You said Arya never killed someone who she knew didn't deserve it. I pointed out that simply wasn't true.

And I pointed out that even when ordered to kill the insurance man, Arya did her very best to justify it to herself as being right - she did not just calmly and without emotion shrug her shoulders and kill a man like you described. She followed him and mentally tries to justify her kill because 'he was evil and deserving of death' -  that shows that she is far from being a sociopath.

41 minutes ago, screamin said:

 As for Marion (that wasn't his name, but damned if I can remember what it was) I agree that he didn't deserve that torture (hardly anyone even in GoT does), but this guy sang and played his harp loudly to cover the screams of Sansa as Lysa tried to throw her out the Moon door...in other words, an accomplice to Sansa's attempted murder, so yeah, he kinda DID deserve the execution. Sansa is to a certain degree culpable for going along with LF in the terrible things he did to cover his tracks...and so is Arya to a degree culpable for the things she's done. They are both gray characters and I like both of them, and am therefore glad that according to the spoilers we have, BOTH of them will manage to avoid going over to the dark side. Peace? 

41 minutes ago, screamin said:

 and without a significant amount of remorse for having killed a man who may not have deserved to die. (IMO, 'I asked if he deserved it, didn't get an answer, and thought about it REAL HARD for a WHOLE DAY before efficiently murdering him in the first degree' does not count as compunction).

Did Sansa even feel any remorse over having a man tortured to get him to confess to something he did not do? She was annoyed by his singing while he was imprisoned and wanted him to die soon. Does that make her a sociopath?

Did Marillion deserve to have his nails pulled out to cover up LF's murder of Lysa? And yeah, both Sansa and Arya are gray characters, but I don't see anyone labeling Sansa a sociopath for going along with Marillion's torture to cover up LF's crimes.  Sansa is responsible for Marillion's torture and execution because she accuses him of something he did not do. And she justifies it to herself as being necessary.

Sansa could very well tell the Vale Lords the truth of who she is and get out of LF's clutches. But she believes that this is the only option.  Similarly Arya thinks that she has no where else to go but be with the FM and if she has to stay with them, then she has to do what they ask. So she mentally justifies her kill in her mind as the insurance man being evil and deserving of death and kills him.

So neither Arya or Sansa are being sociopaths here, but doing what they think is necessary for them to survive the situation they find themselves in.

Edited August 13, 2017 by anamika

[Colorful Mess]

59 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

However, I don't see why it's necessary for there to be any more internal conflict between Jon and Dany than there already is. Right now they are trying to find common ground with two diametrically opposed views about who rules the North, and whether or not one should bend the knee to the other. The big picture is about saving the whole of Westeros by defeating the White Walkers and army of the dead. A marriage alliance would solve one problem - joining forces against the army of the dead and about who ultimately rules what when it's over*, and create other problems because I wouldn't expect the Northerners to be happy about it. 

ETA: * Assumes they also defeat Cersei's forces, and that there will be a kingdom left after in immediate threat is gone.

I think what you are describing, bending the knee, ect. are external conflicts between them, that are political. That's not enough to carry S8, it will be tedious. Instead, I'm arguing that there will be a more personal internal conflict like Jon had to make between his desires and his duty in Seasons 1-3. It will probably be wrapped in 1 ep, but I don't think the showrunners are going to completely ignore it, because if they do, they are denying Jon a choice. Which identity will he choose? It's a compelling character moment, and if they sweep it under the rug, it's just bad writing. Just like they are giving Dany an internal conflict over doing what she wants to do vs. what she's expected to do, Jon's gotta choose. And I'm making a prediction that, based on what we know about this character, Jon will choose to move closer to the Starks rather than move further away from them. He could very well choose to marry her, but we don't have enough information if that marriage will be "for the realm" or "for love," because those options shape his range of opposing choices. Either way, in this story the characters have rarely (maybe never?) been allowed to get BOTH of their desires met when they are presented with two opposing options. 

Edited August 13, 2017 by Colorful Mess
grammar nazi kicked in

[screamin]

5 hours ago, doram said:

Technically, Jon is swapping one adulterous Daddy for a not-technically-adulterous Daddy.

That’s something that a lot of people forget - Jon doesn’t have a completely uncomplicated perspective of Ned Stark. He is the evidence that Ned Stark is not as entirely honourable as people perceive him to be.

If anything, the discovery of his identity will elevate Jon's regard for Ned Stark from what it originally was ---- and at the same time, "lower" it when he considers the whole deception thing. It's not going to be a black/white easily-resolved arc for him where he regrets not being Ned's son. Plus, Rhaegar is generally regarded as a good man - Lyanna-napping not withstanding (which is actually kind of remarkable) - so Jon's knee-jerk reaction isn't going to be the same as if, for example, he had discovered he was Aerys's son.

 

Good point about the adultery. But the thing is, the man Jon knew had committed one act of adultery as a teenager, in the middle of a war in which he might not survive. It was an unimportant pecadillo by the moral standards of Westeros, but he never repeated it and lived an exemplary life since. Whereas Rhaegar was - what, in his thirties, already? With two kids? In a peaceful and prosperous kingdom. He decided to kick that applecart over because he simply HAD to have another man's fiancee. He started a war that ended up killing his first wife and kids because he was too distracted by wooing and winning his new wife to make sure they were safe. Jon secretly resented Ned for engendering a bastard even though Ned treated Jon better than any Westerosi father we know of with an illegitimate child, and even though he loved and admired Ned and considered him a good man in all other ways. If he resented Ned for that one sin, imagine how he'll feel about the budget of sins his real father ended his life with? I doubt the fact that Rhaegar married his mother fair and square can fully make up for them. As for people saying that Rhaegar was a good man - IIRC, they don't actually list many significant good deeds he did. What comes across to me is that he was a CHARISMATIC man (which is why I always picture him as David Bowie from Labyrinth - I forgave him a LOT). The contrast with his father must've also made him seem better by comparison. But neither of these factors will influence Jon.

What WOULD piss me off would be if Bran just smooths it all over with an infodump explaining Rhaegar was a virtuous martyr for engendering the Prince That was Promised, and Jon accepts the awesomeness of his real dad with a shrug.