Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Eyes High]

7x01-7x03 ep titles and descriptions are out, at long last:

Quote

Episode One : Dragonstone
Jon (Kit Harington) organizes the defense of the North.
Cersei (Lena Headey) tries to even the odds.
Daenerys (Emilia Clarke) comes home.

*Episode Two : * Stormborn
Daenerys (Emilia Clarke) receives an unexpected visitor.
Jon (Kit Harington) faces a revolt.
Tyrion (Peter Dinklage) plans the conquest of Westeros.

Episode Three : The Queen's Justice
Daenerys (Emilia Clarke) holds court.
Cersei (Lena Headey) returns a gift.
Jaime (Nikolaj Coster-Waldau) learns from his mistakes.

"Jon faces a revolt" in 7x02? I wonder what that's about.

"Daenerys receives an unexpected visitor." Since Jon doesn't arrive until 7x03, this could be a reference to Melisandre.

"Cersei returns a gift" is likely a reference to Cersei poisoning Tyene in front of Ellaria as revenge for Myrcella, as Lads said.

The ep descriptions also indicated that 7x01 and 7x03 are written by D&D; 7x02 is written by Bryan Cogman.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Eyes High

[Maximum Taco]

9 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

7x01-7x03 ep titles and descriptions are out, at long last:

"Jon faces a revolt" in 7x02? I wonder what that's about.

"Daenerys receives an unexpected visitor." Since Jon doesn't arrive until 7x03, this could be a reference to Melisandre.

"Cersei returns a gift" is likely a reference to Cersei poisoning Tyene in front of Ellaria as revenge for Myrcella, as Lads said.

The ep descriptions also indicated that 7x01 and 7x03 are written by D&D; 7x02 is written by Bryan Cogman.

Jon faces a revolt. Guessing either Sansa asserting herself, and/or Littlefinger using the Vale army to support her.

"Jaime learns from his mistakes" is the one that intrigues me.  Like what is that supposed to mean?

[Edith]

41 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

7x01-7x03 ep titles and descriptions are out, at long last:

"Jon faces a revolt" in 7x02? I wonder what that's about.

"Daenerys receives an unexpected visitor." Since Jon doesn't arrive until 7x03, this could be a reference to Melisandre.

"Cersei returns a gift" is likely a reference to Cersei poisoning Tyene in front of Ellaria as revenge for Myrcella, as Lads said.

The ep descriptions also indicated that 7x01 and 7x03 are written by D&D; 7x02 is written by Bryan Cogman.

The northern lords not being happy with Jon decision of going south? They apparently are not going to be happy with his resolution of forgiving the traitorous houses so 1 plus 1...

Also I don't know if it was Lads2 who said it but I remember reading something that when Bran comes back on episode 3, Lord Royce is going to comment that the actually heir of ned stark is back. 

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Edith said:

The northern lords not being happy with Jon decision of going south? They apparently are not going to be happy with his resolution of forgiving the traitorous houses so 1 plus 1...

Also I don't know if it was Lads2 who said it but I remember reading something that when Bran comes back on episode 3, Lord Royce is going to comment that the actually heir of ned stark is back. 

2 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

Jon faces a revolt. Guessing either Sansa asserting herself, and/or Littlefinger using the Vale army to support her.

If Jon's pardoning the rebel lords didn't go over well, I suppose we could be seeing continued blowback to that, as well as discontent with Jon going south.

I'd find it somewhat amusing if all the bannermen who passed over Sansa seemingly without a thought immediately find themselves on the same side as Sansa against Jon's decision.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

"Cersei returns a gift" is likely a reference to Cersei poisoning Tyene in front of Ellaria as revenge for Myrcella, as Lads said.

That jibes with the "Queen's Justice" title, since I don't think Dany's dispensing any justice at that point according to the spoilers (one episode over and it could apply to the Tarlys getting lit up).

[Raachel2008]

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

"Jon faces a revolt" in 7x02? I wonder what that's about.

I think it is Sansa and Lyanna Mormont wanting to punish the Karstak children and Jon being agaisnt it.

Tyrion, Re: 

6 hours ago, doram said:

I'm not really arguing that they are in love (in a sexual manner) with her, but their devotion to her (which I think is closer to hero-worship turned affection) could easily go that way (if they hadn't eventually fallen in love with each other), and it's very easy to see that if you flip Dany's gender: Basically, if Dany was Aegon or real-life Alexander the Great, it won't be so impossible to understand why a string of people fall in love wit

Dany changed their lives, they wouldn't be as free and independent as they are now if it wasn't for her. So, it is very obvious they that admire her, and Dany herself is a nice, loveable, charming woman. There is no reason for them to not love her, they are her friends, too. You love your friends. Sure, they could fall for her in a romantic sense.

The Alexander the  Great comparison doesn't work for me; it is not about the gender, it is about the story being told.  It is not impossible that a string of people would fall in love with Danaerys, or Alexander the Great or anyone who is attractive, generally nice and holds a position of power. In fact, a string of people did fall for her.   We had Drogo, Jorah, Daario, now Tyrion, and we know Jon is next in line. So, for me, as a viewer, it gives the impression that all men fall for Danaerys even though I know that not all men she met in the show fell for her. 

I guess the best way I can explain it is when some people say Dany never loses, that even when she was captured by the Dothraki she still managed to burn half of them to ashes, etc. I don't necessarily share the sentiment, but I see where they are coming from.

I can't see why they need Tyrion to be in love with Danaerys, it doesn't move her plot or his forward. It adds nothing to the story, IMO. 

Also, show Tyrion was very much in love with Shae, while I still have to see yet with Danaerys. A crush on her,  a little smitten. In love? Sorry, that was not on my screen.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Raachel2008

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

"Jaime learns from his mistakes" is the one that intrigues me.  Like what is that supposed to mean?

According to Lads, Jaime in 7x03 decides to allow the Unsullied to take Casterly Rock so that he can focus his forces on capturing Highgarden. Not sure how that applies, though.

 

28 minutes ago, SeanC said:

If Jon's pardoning the rebel lords didn't go over well, I suppose we could be seeing continued blowback to that, as well as discontent with Jon going south.

Lads said that Sansa is not happy about Jon going south (but she is mollified when he leaves her in charge during his absence), but "revolt" sounds like it's not just confined to one person.

 

11 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

I can't see why they need Tyrion to be in love with Danaerys, it doesn't move her plot or his forward. It adds nothing to the story, IMO. 

While I agree that Tyrion being in love with Dany doesn't seem to have any bearing on the plot in Season 7--to the point that Lads didn't even mention it--there are a few possibilities:

1. It's from the books, where it does move the plot forward in some crucial way, and while D&D may have cut the surrounding book plot, they kept the unrequited love element.

2. It's from the books and has some future bearing on the plot in Season 8, for example if jealousy over what I assume will be Jon and Dany's romantic relationship clouds Tyrion's judgment.

3. It has nothing to do with the books and is just D&D giving Dinklage something meaty to chew on in Season 7, much like they gave him the dragon scene in Season 6.

I am curious how Book Tyrion will square his obsession with Tysha with his love for Dany if he does fall in love with her in the books, but TV Tyrion doesn't have that problem.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

Just now, Eyes High said:

Lads said that Sansa is not happy about Jon going south (but she is mollified when he leaves her in charge during his absence), but "revolt" sounds like it's not just confined to one person.

"Revolt" is probably an overdramatic usage in this context -- particularly since Jon would be pretty dumb to leave Winterfell immediately after some sort of serious discontent, let alone leave Sansa in charge if she was the one instigating it.

[Edith]

10 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

I think it is Sansa and Lyanna Mormont wanting to kill the Karstaks children.

 

Wait? What? Sansa nor Lyanna wants to kill the children. Where did you get that?

Sansa wants to take the land of the traitorous houses and give them to the houses that supported Jon. Lyanna and the northern lords agree with this.

[SeanC]

The title "Stormborn" is getting my hopes up that we'll get the story of Dany's birth on the show, finally.

[Spartan Girl]

Can we all just take a moment to let this sink in: THE DRAGONS HAVE FINALLY COME TO WESTEROS.

Somebody needs to let Butters on South Park know pronto.

[Raachel2008]

2 hours ago, Edith said:

Wait? What? Sansa nor Lyanna wants to kill the children. Where did you get that?

Sansa wants to take the land of the traitorous houses and give them to the houses that supported Jon. Lyanna and the northern lords agree with this.

Ops, my bad. I understood the punishment involved killing? Fixed it. Anyway, I think the "revolt" reffers to the Kastark children;  Sansa and Lyanna wanting one thing, and Jon doing it his way.

[paigow]

19 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

"Jaime learns from his mistakes" is the one that intrigues me.  Like what is that supposed to mean?

Maybe he stops listening to Cersei....

[Edith]

Promo from Greece tv:

http://watchersonthewall.com/new-game-thrones-season-7-trailer-greece-shows-new-footage/

 

New footage!!

[Raachel2008]

On 2017-7-7 at 6:51 PM, Eyes High said:

. It has nothing to do with the books and is just D&D giving Dinklage something meaty to chew on in Season 7, much like they gave him the dragon scene in Season 6.

 

I happen to think that Tyrion meeting Cersei and Jamie after everything that has happened since Joffrey's and Twyin's deaths is meaty enough. Add the fact that he is now the hand ot he 'last' Targaryen alive who wants the Iron Throne his sister is currently sitting on, well I do think there is more than something  meaty for Peter Dinklage. But that is just me.

6 hours ago, Edith said:

 

New footage!!

Aaah. Love it. And that shot of Beric never gets old.

[anamika]

On 6/7/2017 at 8:48 PM, Eyes High said:

 I can't imagine TV Tyrion doing anything about his love for Dany other than getting drunk and whining to Varys about it.

Yes, with only 13 episodes left, I don't think they can do much with it. But it's interesting that Dinklage seems to be hinting that Tyrion is sticking with her partly because he is 'smitten' with her.

7 hours ago, Edith said:

Promo from Greece tv:

http://watchersonthewall.com/new-game-thrones-season-7-trailer-greece-shows-new-footage/

 

New footage!!

That swagger from Jaime in his cool Lannister outfit!  Kingslayer Vs Dany is what I am looking forward to most in the first half.

[paigow]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

  Kingslayer Vs Dany is what I am looking forward to most in the first half....

Kingslayer falls in love with Dany....Why would he be any different? 

[anamika]

7 hours ago, paigow said:

Kingslayer falls in love with Dany....Why would he be any different? 

Unfortunately Kingslayer stuck a sword into the back of Dany's fleeing father, killing him. So Dany is looking to roast him with her dragons. There won't be time for Kingslayer to fall in love with her while he is trying to escape the dragon flames...

Edited July 9, 2017 by anamika

[SeanC]

Update from everyone's favourite spoiler source, that website that lets you know about upcoming TV nudity.  Their calendar of upcoming shows lists GOT episodes 702, 703, and 707; they haven't, as yet, posted about the contents of the individual episodes, which it seems like they now do a week or so in advance.

707 would be boatsex, presumably.  Missandei/Grey Worm would probably be 702, based on the timing.

[Edith]

46 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Update from everyone's favourite spoiler source, that website that lets you know about upcoming TV nudity.  Their calendar of upcoming shows lists GOT episodes 702, 703, and 707; they haven't, as yet, posted about the contents of the individual episodes, which it seems like they now do a week or so in advance.

707 would be boatsex, presumably.  Missandei/Grey Worm would probably be 702, based on the timing.

703 would be Cersei and Jaime. Lads2 described a sex scene between them (with royal bj!) after she kills Tyene. 

[Azi]

I'm really glad that they apparently didn't go back to random nudity/rape! I enjoyed the last season so much more - not only because of that of course, but it was somehow more relaxing? I don't mind consensual sex scenes at all (as long as they're not on the stupidity level of Pod-in-the-whorehouse, which they seem not to be). I read so much about some fans flooding GoT's twitter and facebook page, wanting ALL THE BOOBS back, that I was actually a bit worried.

Since Lads hasn't said a peep about Tyrion being in love with Dany, I simply assumed that "smitten" meant that he really admires everything about her. She finally gave him the respect he always craved. Or maybe that's just the way how Peter interpreted it. So far I'm not worried about some love triangle of doom happening.
I do find the thought of Tyrion and Jorah standing in a corner with gloomy faces while Jon and Dany are smiling at each other kind of hilarious, though. 

[Eyes High]

15 hours ago, anamika said:

Yes, with only 13 episodes left, I don't think they can do much with it. But it's interesting that Dinklage seems to be hinting that Tyrion is sticking with her partly because he is 'smitten' with her.

He's also hinting that Tyrion's love for Dany gets in the way of his better judgment, although there wasn't anything about that in the leaks, only that Tyrion and Varys come to worry about Dany after she impulsively launches the ambush.

 

41 minutes ago, Azi said:

Since Lads hasn't said a peep about Tyrion being in love with Dany, I simply assumed that "smitten" meant that he really admires everything about her. She finally gave him the respect he always craved. Or maybe that's just the way how Peter interpreted it. So far I'm not worried about some love triangle of doom happening.
I do find the thought of Tyrion and Jorah standing in a corner with gloomy faces while Jon and Dany are smiling at each other kind of hilarious, though. 

I wouldn't be surprised that Lads said nothing about Tyrion being in love with Dany, since it has no bearing on the plot in Season 7 as far as we know. It could be that it's just how Dinklage is playing the character, though, and nothing that was explicitly written in.

I agree that it would be hilarious, particularly since Tyrion has gleefully pointed out that Jorah is in love with Dany more than once previously.

[whateverdgaf]

6 hours ago, anamika said:

Unfortunately Kingslayer stuck a sword into the back of Dany's fleeing father, killing him. So Dany is looking to roast him with her dragons. There won't be time for Kingslayer to fall in love with her while he is trying to escape the dragon flames...

Considering Jaime's past experiences with fire happy Targaryens, I rather doubt he's going to be falling for her any time soon.

[Raachel2008]

3 hours ago, Azi said:

So far I'm not worried about some love triangle of doom happening.

There won't be a love triangle at all, which is the last thing this show needs.  

 

2 hours ago, doram said:

I honestly can't

Season 1 was shit for Dany, yet, she surfaced from all that crap stronger, and her losses, one would argue, were no worse than Sansa, for example, who was repeatedly raped by Ramsay, or losing three children. But that is not a contest, IMO, who had it worse. It is all about perception. Like I said, I don't share the sentiment, but I see where people come from.

[GrailKing]

On the freefolk subreddit, someone is saying he / she got to see the first episode.

Seems they get two bend the knees request, first Cersei and then in ep.2 from Danni.

Sansa questions Jon on the Karstark and umbers in the great hall meeting, and later out on the WF wall she tells him he's a good leader but needs to be smarter then their father and Robb, as honor is what got them killed, and she is telling him that Cersei is dangerous, but Jon says there's a thousand miles of snow and Cersei can't touch them.

Supposedly LF mentions something to Sansa and she tells him to bugger off, he tries to get Royce to go against Jon and fails there; also I think the scene where LF is creeping in the crypts, it's said he's actually watching Sansa take a bath.

There's more if you wish to check it out.

[anamika]

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Sansa questions Jon on the Karstark and umbers in the great hall meeting, and later out on the WF wall she tells him he's a good leader but needs to be smarter then their father and Robb, as honor is what got them killed, and she is telling him that Cersei is dangerous, but Jon says there's a thousand miles of snow and Cersei can't touch them.
 

I can already tell that the Jon-Sansa scenes are going to be a repeat of last season with the manufactured drama.

Sansa: Jon, don't do what Cersei wants you to do.

Sansa: Jon, don't do what Ned and Robb did.

Jon: (-__-)

David, Dan and Sophie Turner : As you can see, Sansa has become a political mastermind and genius game player.

At least Jon seems to be sticking up for himself which sort of gels with Kit Harington mentioning that Jon gets to do more talking rather than just grunting in scenes. Also LF? lol! I am almost starting to feel sorry for him - he is coming across as a comedy villain. How is he going to last for 7 episodes at this rate?

Everything else sounds good, especially all the Arya stuff and Dany finally landing in Westeros. Mostly a set-up episode like all premieres but lots of stuff happening. Looks exciting!

Edited July 10, 2017 by anamika

[theschnauzers]

A random question that has popped up in my head lately. If Jon is in actuality a Targaryn, does this mean he could also have the blood of dragons and has some ability with them? It seems to be a logical question that I haven't seen asked or answered.

[Minneapple]

3 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Supposedly LF mentions something to Sansa and she tells him to bugger off, he tries to get Royce to go against Jon and fails there; also I think the scene where LF is creeping in the crypts, it's said he's actually watching Sansa take a bath.

 

Well, that's only a little creepy. And by a little I mean like a WHOLE FUCK TON OF CREEPY. *Shudder*

As for any kind of love triangle, let me also give another *shudder* at that. NO THANKS.

[Raachel2008]

4 hours ago, doram said:

10 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

 

Oh I definitely see where people come from. Dany is a female character. Ergo, perception will always be skewed against her regardless of what the actual facts state. 

Whoa! Did I say anything about gender? Jon gets the same complaints and it is the same for me, while I don't necessarily agree with them, I can see where they come from.

1 hour ago, anamika said:

David, Dan and Sophie Turner : As you can see, Sansa has become a political mastermind and genius game player.

That sums it all. 

Read the 'recaps', IF they are true, looking forward to Jon in the cripts, Arya finding about Winterfell, Jamie and Cersei, and Sam in the citadel and Jorah. I'm not sure those are real, though the Cersei's line to Jaimie sounds like something she would say, and it makes much more sense that only Sansa wants to punish the Kastark children, and Lyanna doesn't, because she clearly worshipps Jon. We'll see.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Raachel2008

[ElizaD]

There's often a horrible clash between what the show says about Sansa's underappreciated genius and what's actually shown onscreen, but her warning about Cersei seems like the first time she's genuinely smarter than everyone else, since IIRC even Jaime is supposed to be surprised that Cersei agreed to a truce only to backstab Jon/Dany and send Euron to fetch sellswords.

[anamika]

1 hour ago, ElizaD said:

There's often a horrible clash between what the show says about Sansa's underappreciated genius and what's actually shown onscreen, but her warning about Cersei seems like the first time she's genuinely smarter than everyone else, since IIRC even Jaime is supposed to be surprised that Cersei agreed to a truce only to backstab Jon/Dany and send Euron to fetch sellswords.

Assuming these spoilers are true and the poster's interpretations are right, it feels like we are seeing a parallel between Cersei/Jaime and Sansa/Jon. Cersei apparently wants to go to war with the other houses - which includes the North - and Jaime is cautioning her and tells her that this is going to be difficult because Winter is here and they need to provide for their own troops. And then after getting a 'bend the knee' missive from Cersei, Sansa warns Jon about her and Jon basically says what Jaime does - With a harsh winter, Cersei's armies cannot come North- which sounds reasonable. Both Cersei and Sansa sound rather naive here about what a Southern army is capable of in the North.

As for the backstabbing later on, there's nothing really that Jon/Dany/Tyrion can do at this point. They ask Cersei to join them - she says she will send more men and then plans to backtrack and wait it out so that the WW will destroy everyone else and she will be left as the victor. According to spoilers, Euron gets the hell out of dodge with his ships and what can Cersei's golden company really do at this point? The Golden company are mercenaries - they are not going to be stupid when they see the WW.

Besides, even Jaime realizes at this point how much of an idiot Cersei is and heads North - he will probably give the others an heads up that Cersei is not planning on sending the Lannister army and the rest of the Kingdom will just have to proceed without her.

So Sansa is not telling anything new that Jon needs to know. If Sansa is telling Jon that Cersei will not send them men even after seeing a live demo wight, I will accept that she is an under-appreciated genius, surpassing even Tyrion. But this seems to be more of Sansa giving us some vague shit masquerading as clever advice. Pretty much what she did last season with Ramsay - Cersei is bad, don't do what Ned and Robb did blah blah - which are things that someone like Jon should already know. The funny thing is that from the lads spoilers, it looks like Jon disagrees with Sansa and says that he is going to be doing things differently from now in forgiving the children of the traitors - in which case it would be different to how Ned and Robb did things. Jon seems to be espousing Tywin's philosophy here. From ASoS:

Quote

Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you.

But later on apparently Sansa drags him for making the same mistakes that Ned and Robb did. What? Maybe we will have more context after the episode airs when we know exactly what the disagreement is between them.

It does feel like the nonsensical writing we got last season between Jon and Sansa, where Sansa apparently felt disrespected because Jon did not ask for her opinion in the battle tent even though she had no issues speaking freely in an earlier meeting. We will probably have to wait for the behind the scenes interviews to understand what the writers are trying to say in their Jon-Sansa scenes.

Edited July 10, 2017 by anamika

[Edith]

9 hours ago, GrailKing said:

On the freefolk subreddit, someone is saying he / she got to see the first episode.

Seems they get two bend the knees request, first Cersei and then in ep.2 from Danni.

Sansa questions Jon on the Karstark and umbers in the great hall meeting, and later out on the WF wall she tells him he's a good leader but needs to be smarter then their father and Robb, as honor is what got them killed, and she is telling him that Cersei is dangerous, but Jon says there's a thousand miles of snow and Cersei can't touch them.

Supposedly LF mentions something to Sansa and she tells him to bugger off, he tries to get Royce to go against Jon and fails there; also I think the scene where LF is creeping in the crypts, it's said he's actually watching Sansa take a bath.

There's more if you wish to check it out.

If is true, the part that caught my attention was the vision the Hound sees in the flame. It's the only thing that wasn't in the leaks that could be a BIG spoiler for the next season! 

The rest is pretty much like lads said. Obviously context, dialogue and direction are going to be different. We should take the leaks as guidelines and nothing else.

[Raachel2008]

13 hours ago, doram said:

It certainly didn't serve her when she allowed herself to be married into the House that murdered her brothers. 

Are you talking about marrying Tyrion or marrying Ramsay? Because  she couldn't exactly say no to Joffrey/Cersei, could she? Sansa was a prisioner and her captors were the very same people who murdered her  father, brother, mother and, as far as she knew, sister. She didn't "allowed herself to be married". She was forced into marriage. Now, about Ramsay, I find that she also didn't have much of a choice, did she? 

 

20 hours ago, ElizaD said:

There's often a horrible clash between what the show says about Sansa's underappreciated genius and what's actually shown onscreen, but her warning about Cersei seems like the first time she's genuinely smarter than everyone else, since IIRC even Jaime is supposed to be surprised that Cersei agreed to a truce only to backstab Jon/Dany and send Euron to fetch sellswords.

But what underappreciated genius? There was nothing on screen proving Sansa's intellect is more than it actually is; her biggest move was asking LF for the Vale forces. Then she promptly proved she is no genius by wihtholding very important information from the people who actually needed that info.  D&D desperately wants to sell Sansa like some mastermind strategist. She is not , and they didn't care to build her as something remotely close to that. 

Also, sorry, but Cersei is STUPID. And I mean STUPID. She listens to Jon's stories about the WW. She demands to see one. Jon goes North, almost dies, a bunch of his men are killed,  Dany loses a fucking dragon to the WW so they can show Cersei a WW. They land the WW at her feet, she sees that it 'cannot' be killed (per spoilers) with regular swords, she knows there is an army of thousands and thousands and thousands coming South.  She knows Dany and Jon need the Lannister troops in order to have a real chance and she knows the WW are the dead. And what Cersei does? She decides that  she will solve all her problems sending Jon and Dany forces to kill/be killed by the WW. In other words, she is feeding the WW.  How can you get more stupid than that? You cannot, which is exactly why Jaime leave her, because even Jaime cannot believe his sister is that fucking dumb. So, sorry, Sansa could never predict Cersei would be that stupid, because no one could. 

Edited July 11, 2017 by Raachel2008

[WearyTraveler]

45 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Now, about Ramsay, I find that she also didn't have much of a choice, did she? 

LF told her that if she wanted to go back, they would.  He was manipulating her with words about getting back her home, and so on, but he did give her a choice.  And she fell for LF's spiel and actually chose to marry Ramsay.

[Edith]

1 hour ago, WearyTraveler said:

LF told her that if she wanted to go back, they would.  He was manipulating her with words about getting back her home, and so on, but he did give her a choice.  And she fell for LF's spiel and actually chose to marry Ramsay.

If she has a choice to refuse the plan then why did Littlefinger wait until they were alone to tell her? Why didn't he tell her in the Vale? Why wait until they were close to Moat Cailin? Why has he already made the proposal to the Bolton's, if all depended on Sansa? 

Sansa was manipulated to accept the situation, she was coerce to accept it. Have you ever heard of Stockholm syndrome? Because that's exactly what Littlefinger-Sansa relationship is.

[FemmyV]

HBO finally has show description on the data guide. FWIW. Episode 1 only

Edited July 11, 2017 by FemmyV

[SimoneS]

I just saw a promo on some cable channel and my heart stopped. I cannot wait.

Edited July 11, 2017 by SimoneS

[Raachel2008]

2 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I just saw a promo on some cable channel and my heart stopped. I cannot wait.

A new promo?? Details!

[SimoneS]

1 minute ago, Raachel2008 said:

A new promo?? Details!

It wasn't new. It was a shorter version of the latest promo. I am just over hyped at this point.

[Raachel2008]

13 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

LF told her that if she wanted to go back, they would.  He was manipulating her with words about getting back her home, and so on, but he did give her a choice.  And she fell for LF's spiel and actually chose to marry Ramsay.

But if she fell por LF's spiel and was manipulated by him, then she was a victim, right? Look I'm far from being a Sansa fan,  but I don't think she had much of a choice there, never mind that she couldn't have known Ramsay was a sadist bastard. 

 

9 hours ago, SimoneS said:

It wasn't new. It was a shorter version of the latest promo. I am just over hyped at this point.

Ah, bummer, lol.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Raachel2008

[anamika]

http://watchersonthewall.com/carice-van-houten-liam-cunningham-sophie-turner-john-bradley-open-game-thrones-season-7/

Quote

“The dynamics of [the Sansa-Petyr] relationship are definitely played out a lot this year,” Sophie Turner begins. “On the one hand he’s so knowledgable, he gives her so much advice. There’s a lot of her struggling with whether she trusts him or not this year.”

Only a fool would trust Littlefinger.

To quote Lord Buckethead (For those familiar with the recently conducted British elections) regarding the Sansa-LF plot this season: It will be a shitshow.

15 hours ago, doram said:

Well the showrunners dumbing Jon down for Sansa's sake isn't anything new. 

Jon is being smart as @anamika stated in Tywin's quote by reconciling with his previous enemies to keep the North united under him. 

But watch and see tptb prove Sansa wise because she's - what again? - lucky enough to be a mini-Catelyn Tully and therefore the object of Littlefinger's fixation? Because that's the extent of her "genius" - Petyr's obsession with her. It certainly didn't serve her when she allowed herself to be married into the House that murdered her brothers. 

 

The problem is that now they have taken Sansa North, they have to give her something relevant to do. In the books, Jon does not need Sansa's shitty advice to rule the North. He is more than qualified and GRRM has build him up as an intelligent, pragmatic leader who can play the game. Which means the show can't undermine Jon as a leader too much. So Sansa is stuck with giving vague meaningless advice like - don't trust Cersei, don't be like Ned and Robb etc. to demonstrate her genius master player credentials. Luckily (for me), this lasts only for two episodes at the most and then Jon can go have more meaningful discussions (And BoatSex™) with Dany!

[SeanC]

Speaking of the Northern story, WOTW mod Luka Nieto actually commented on the Lads leaks to supply his own corrections in one instance, in response to some people debating the whole "does Sansa actually doing anything?" question over there.  He says:

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Without spoiling too much, I can just say… You’re just wrong, guys. The leaks you read must have been really out of context.

Sansa already mistrusts Littlefinger and is planning to do him in, because of a few things in particular that take place; and only THEN does Sansa seek Bran’s aid. Even with Bran, you have it the wrong way around: SHE gives Bran all the necessary information for him to dig deeper with his powers, telling him where to look, what to look for. She orchestrates the whole thing.

That's better than Lads made it sound, at least (though he was often pretty disorganized in his remarks).

I guess Bran is officially Winterfell's Google.  We can add designing good search terms to Sansa's skillset.

Edited July 11, 2017 by SeanC

[anamika]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Speaking of the Northern story, WOTW mod Luka Nieto actually commented on the Lads leaks to supply his own corrections in one instance, in response to some people debating the whole "does Sansa actually doing anything?" question over there.  He says:

That's better than Lads made it sound, at least (though he was often pretty disorganized in his remarks).

I guess Bran is officially Winterfell's Google.  We can add designing good search terms to Sansa's skillset.

Sounds much better.  This way it looks like she is at least using her mind to figure him out.

Keeping my fingers crossed that Arya is not written as a fool to show off Sansa's player credentials. But with the way D and D write, not getting my hopes up.

[domina89]

I saw Kit Harington on Jimmy Kimmel last night and he mentioned that he filmed three fake scenes (he said they took about 5 hours each) just to mislead the paparazzi.  Any guesses as to which ones might have been fake?  I hope one of them isn't the scene with Jon and Tyrion shaking hands.  I want that one to be real!

[Edith]

22 minutes ago, domina89 said:

I saw Kit Harington on Jimmy Kimmel last night and he mentioned that he filmed three fake scenes (he said they took about 5 hours each) just to mislead the paparazzi.  Any guesses as to which ones might have been fake?  I hope one of them isn't the scene with Jon and Tyrion shaking hands.  I want that one to be real!

Problably when they are playing with some Dragons heads is one of them. 

The other two? I don't know, maybe he's lying? The video of him coming down stairs to meet Dany is real, we see a shot on the trailer and is happening in episode 3.

The one you're describing is happening too. It was in one of Lads spoilers. So I don't know.

[OhOkayWhat]

Jon's plan (the Wight hunt) is not a bad plan, it's the only plan. Team Living is vastly outnumbered, has a lot less power, and it is terribly out of time. There is not another option than convince everyone (and it's really everyone) to work together or everyone will be doomed. And it includes Team Cercei. Jon knows Cercei is capable of to lie and to betray. But to know it is irrelevant. There is not another option than to work together. And to work together without lose one more day.

[shireenbamfatheon]

1 hour ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Jon's plan (the Wight hunt) is not a bad plan, it's the only plan. Team Living is vastly outnumbered, has a lot less power, and it is terribly out of time. There is not another option than convince everyone (and it's really everyone) to work together or everyone will be doomed. And it includes Team Cercei. Jon knows Cercei is capable of to lie and to betray. But to know it is irrelevant. There is not another option than to work together. And to work together without lose one more day.

Cersei and Euron are the only people left to convince, and they're the two least likely to help out, as someone like Tyrion, Sansa, Yara and Theon should have deduced at this point considering their interactions with them. Jon kneeling for Dany also solidifies that they have no intention of letting Cersei stay on the Iron Throne once all is said and done, which just gives her even more incentive to stay away. Either she helps them, loses most of her men in the process and is then either executed or exiled if they win, or she sits back, lets them lose most of their sources and hopes for victory. Cersei's plan is long-sighted and completely in-line with her character. 

As for Jon, even ignoring that he's naive enough to believe she'll care about the WW, does he have zero consideration for the fact that Cersei recently blew up the Holy Sept containing most of the highborn Southerners, including her own uncle, that she loathes House Stark and wants them all dead, and that it's not out of character for her to stage an ambush once all her enemies are gathered in one place (it actually makes zero sense from a logical standpoint that she doesn't just off them since the spoilers indicate they arrive without armies and dragons)? Or that the NK has the ability to control his wights beyond the Wall as shown is season one and could have just let the captured wight drop dead? Or that it'd be smart to send a couple of hundred men instead of just half a dozen considering the nature of the mission? Or that, as admirable as Jon's desire to lead in battle is, it's not a good idea for him to do every single thing by himself when his people are counting on him to lead them and his death means they'll be ruled by Sansa, who's more worried about Cersei than the NK? 

Jon's actions might be admirable, but they're not smart. I swear, if he'd been in Ned's place in season one, he'd probably have gone after the Mountain himself instead of sending Beric, nevermind the long-term ramifications his actions would have for others. 

Edited July 11, 2017 by shireenbamfatheon

[Hana Chan]

It's been frustrating to see Jon's experiences and accomplishments being diminished in favor of trying to paint Sansa as so clever (and let's be honest... if she throws her support in with a man who's fixated on her because he was in love with her mother and sold her out to a rapist, she's not nearly as clever as she paints herself being). Jon has been in command at the Wall. A ruler, if one can draw that comparison, and he knows better than anyone else the responsibility that comes with that kind of leadership. Unlike Cersi, who's out for herself, Sansa (likewise if the spoilers are true), and even Dany (out to regain her family's throne), he's the only one who's not looking for power to elevate him. Maybe at one time he wanted to be a great lord (which would be an engaging fantasy for someone with no real place in society despite his noble lineage), but he has long since had that desire beaten out of him. He's understands what it is to send men into battle, knowing that they were going to die. He understands and appreciates that kind of heavy responsibility.

Moreso, he has his own political wisdom that seems to be getting dismissed all the time. When he was Commander and was trying to persuade the Northern houses to send men to bolster the NW numbers, he also wrote to the Boltons with that request. He absolutely hated the idea and you could tell that it sickened him to send a request to the men who had taken over the keep where he was raised, but he still did it. Sansa might argue that Cersi must not be trusted, but Jon has his eye on a battle that she has absolutely no clue about. If convincing Cersi, however untrustworthy she is, that the real fight is coming to them and gets him another family and army for the war, then all for it. Sansa might think that she's playing chess, but Jon is not playing games now. As a leader, he knows that there are times when you have to do what you don't want because it's necessary and to discount that he might be able to get Cersi on board (along with what military force she can call upon) because of his hatred for her makes no sense. He has to at least try.

I am really hoping that all these spoilers about Sansa undermining Jon have as much validity as the spoilers insisting that Jon was dead dead DEAD and not coming back. Because the stakes are tremendous. And if Sansa throws in her lot with Littlefinger against Jon then she'll end up as just another petty villain to be squashed for the greater good. And that would be a very sad ending for her amazing storyline.  

[Hana Chan]

25 minutes ago, doram said:

IMUO (in my unpopular opinion), Sansa becoming a villain - or more accurately a villain's sidekick - might be the only logical endgame for her inconsistent arc. 

The possibilities for Sansa that I can see are pretty stark (no pun intended). If the spoilers are really accurate, she will end up as one of many villains in the bigger storyline (the one that goes well beyond who sits on what throne) since by her actions she'll be hindering the war effort against the White Walkers. And I cannot see Bran or Arya supporting her against Jon (once they both get to Winterfell) which means that Sansa will be permanently outside the family circle. She'll be the lone wolf to die, while the pack survives without her.

Or she could be playing Littlefinger the way he thinks he's playing her. Playing along just enough to make him think that she's on his side against Jon and giving him enough rope to hang himself with. That right before he dies, she reveals that she's a Stark and stands with her family. My hope is, obviously, the later because I am so tired of seeing the Starks kicked out. The last thing I want at this point is to have the drama coming from within.

[Raachel2008]

6 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Cersei isn't the stupid one in this situation, everyone else is. Cersei's got nothing to lose at this point, and since D&D really do believe that she genuinely loved her children and not what they represented, that means she has nothing left to live for anymore. She does not give a fuck. Jon, on the other hand, carries out perhaps the worst-thought-out plan in the series to bring Cersei a zombie when she's proven herself to be backstabbing and selfish (and in possession of a zombie herself), and in the process they lose half their men, a dragon and Jon almost loses his own life (until deus ex Benjen shows up) when he's just been made the King in the North and has half a continent to lead. Cersei comes out of this stronger, since not only will Dany and Jon be occupied with the WW, but Euron also brings her the Golden Company, an elite army consisting of 20.000 soldiers. Jon gets absolutely nothing out of his mission and now the NK has a dragon.

If Cersei  had nothing to live for anymore, she would have followed Tommen jumping out of that window and wouldn't give a fuck about anything else. Cersei could lose her brother/lover, her life, her power. She has a LOT to lose.  Sure, Dany wants the Iron Throne and Jon supports Dany. But Cersei won't have anything to lose, not even the Iron Throne, if the WWs comes South. If Jon and Dany could defeat the WWs alone, they wouldn't ask for the Lannister troops,  so what makes her think that they will beat the WW without her? It is a stupid, short-sighted thinking. You bet that Jamie doesn't head North only because he thinks Cersei betrayed him, but because he knows what are the priorities.

Correct me if I missed someone, but very few people have actually seen the WWs, right? Jon himself, Tormund, the Wildlings, some Crows, Bran and Meera. Dany herself doesn't believe in them; assuming the spoilers are true, she believes in Tyrion believing Jon. How is Jon supposed to prove to Cersei that the WW are real without bringing a WW to King's Landing? Jon's plan maybe not be perfect, but it is their only plan. Jon won't have half a continent to lead if the WW crosses the wall, which is his main point in this whole saga: nobody will rule anything if the WW wins. It is simple like that. You may argue that he shouldn't lead this hunt himself, and I agree to a point; but Jon wouldn't be Jon if he let someone else do 'his' work, and he is the only one there who has been in battle with the WWs. Losses are expected (re: his men) and Dany saving him and losing Viserrion shows Dany what the WWs can do, balances the war to come and leads to Boat!Sex!

 

2 hours ago, doram said:

IMUO (in my unpopular opinion), Sansa becoming a villain - or more accurately a villain's sidekick - might be the only logical endgame for her inconsistent arc. 

I disagree. I  don't think Sansa will become a villain. Her inconsistent show arc is due to D&D own inability to write a couple of decent scenes for Sansa, showing her growth and the supposedly amazing leadership skills she has, paving what I think is her arc in season 8: protect Winterfell when the WWs come and Jon and Dany have yet to arrive. Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell, but she is not seen as their leader the same way Jon is.  If they want her to become QITN or anything like that, Sansa needs to 'earn' it. There is not way Jon's endgame is ruling Winterfell, but I can seet hat as Sansa's endgame, becoming the Stark she is supposed to be/should be.

6 hours ago, domina89 said:

I saw Kit Harington on Jimmy Kimmel last night and he mentioned that he filmed three fake scenes (he said they took about 5 hours each) just to mislead the paparazzi.  Any guesses as to which ones might have been fake?  I hope one of them isn't the scene with Jon and Tyrion shaking hands.  I want that one to be real!

Really? That sounds like a lot of time and money spent for... what exactly? Mess with a few paparazzi? I don't buy it.

Five days. Cannot wait.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Raachel2008

[domina89]

17 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Really? That sounds like a lot of time and money spent for... what exactly? Mess with a few paparazzi? I don't buy it.

I think it was mainly damage control for the leaks, actually.  And filming fake scenes isn't unheard of- The Walking Dead did something similar.  GOT certainly has a much larger budget than TWD has, so it isn't entirely unbelievable that they might do something like this.  The problem is that Kit has lied before, so now no one is inclined to believe him even if he is genuinely telling the truth this time.