Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[YaddaYadda]

Maybe they'll give Jon part of his story in the books where he is reinforcing the Night's Watch by having people man different castles, at least give them the chance to make a stand instead of just getting wiped in one fell swoop by the WW the second they march south of the Wall. Although that will be useless if the Wall is brought down.

I hope Jon doesn't get involved in LF's machinations, which is such a pipe dream.

I'm also really starting to hate Sansa. The more I hear, the more I just can't with her. She needs to take a really good and hard look in the mirror and see that the things she wanted, like staying in KL, tattling on her father to Cersei started a chain reaction that cost her a lot. Her father was murdered, she lost her sister, she was beaten, she was used as a pawn in a murder plot, she was sold and raped, she almost got her half-brother killed, not to mention how many others died because she didn't share a vital piece of information, and if she is in LF's camp, then she is very much dead to me. 

The sooner she understands that this has nothing to do with her, what she wants, or Jon, and what he wants, the better it will be for all parties involved, and apparently for Westeros as well.

What is she going to do when she comes face to face with a WW? Sigh him to death?

Sansa has gone through a lot, she understands the game better, but if she's on LF's side, then she hasn't grown at all.

[Constantinople]

23 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Sophie Turner did an interview while in Venice that was posted in Italian. On Season 7, she said about what you might expect--can't say much, only seven episodes, best season ever, blah blah blah--but she also said the following (roughly translated using Google translate with an assist from an Italian speaker in the WOTW comments thread):

"[The season] will make the acquaintance of many characters. There will be characters we have never seen before [or "The characters will be like we have never seen them before," depending on how you translate it, apparently]. Many will meet and will narrow new alliances. Many chickens will come home to roost. For Sansa in particular it will be a very, very interesting season."

Sophie continued by saying

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A typical episode will involve multiple characters interacting with one another, many of whom will be familiar to viewers, and multiple locations, typically in Westeros.  Characters will talk to one another primarily in English, though Daenerys may utter a few phrases in Dothraki or Old Valyrian from time-to-time.  Some characters may die.  White Walkers will remain a threat to civilization.

[SeanC]

12 hours ago, anamika said:

It could be like last season, where Jon basically had nothing to do for the first half of the season when Sansa had secret meetings with LF and hobnobbed with Brienne.

Jon had about as much to do as Sansa in the first five episodes, even accounting for the fact that he was dead for the first two (an obviously atypical plot element that won't be repeated in Season 7).  He was a corpse for the first two episodes, but he had as much screentime in episode 3 as Sansa had in episodes 1 & 2.  In episode 4, obviously, they had all the same scenes.  Episode 5 is the only one where there's more focus on her.

2 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

She needs to take a really good and hard look in the mirror and see that the things she wanted, like staying in KL, tattling on her father to Cersei started a chain reaction that cost her a lot.

That didn't happen in the show.

[Eyes High]

The actors for Yara, Theon, Tyene, Cersei, Ellaria, and Euron have all been spotted in Belfast.

Big spoilers from WOTW:

1. Yara and Theon engage in a sea battle with Euron.

2. That same battle results in either Yara or Theon's capture.

3. Euron and Cersei team up in Season 7.

4. Euron will kill at least one of the Sand Snakes.

"At least" one?

I wonder whether it will be Yara or Theon who is captured. Assuming Euron kills the one he captures, I guess it depends on which of them is supposed to survive in the books.

I always thought WOTW had a policy of holding back on the big spoilers out of courtesy to their sources (and to avoid HBO from bringing the hammer down). If they're releasing this kind of information now, I'm wondering just how crazy Season 7 gets.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

54 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I wonder whether it will be Yara or Theon who is captured. Assuming Euron kills the one he captures, I guess it depends on which of them is supposed to survive in the books.

I don't know that we can automatically write off whoever he captures, though in Theon's case that would be a continuation of his spectacularly bad luck if he falls into enemy hands again.  Theon is one of the characters I have a hard time speculating about even in the books, and in the show he's clearly gone off-book to an extent that I'm even less sure about it.  A lot of people thought Theon was going to die soon in TWOW in the North, which obviously didn't/won't happen in the show; if the writers changed that plot, maybe they've come up with a different death for him?  Though it's kind of hard to see how that would serve as much of an ending for him.  Conversely, if they're just going to kill Yara, I think it was a huge mistake to suddenly make her LGBT (and now the only such character on the show).

The Cerse/Euron alliance was long predicted, but on this point I will say, I've long believed that the story really requires some capacity on the part of Dany's enemies to challenge her dragons.  In the books, it seems like that's what Euron's magical proclivities are meant for.  But if Euron can do that, what exactly does he need Cersei for?

[TxanGoddess]

arggh!  The forum badly needs a delete button for when you eff a post up beyond repair ...

Edited September 8, 2016 by TxanGoddess

[FemmyV]

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We usually forget the Big Narrative within the show. Arya/Sandor/Bwb cannot be in the North yet, if they go it will ruin the showrunners plans for the Jon-Sansa-Littlefinger storyline next season.

 

Jebus. If TIIC are planning on turning Season7 / North into The Sansa Show, what's the point in watching for the Sansa-ambivalent?

Arya can go where she damn well pleases, this time around Sandor/BwB aren't going to be able to keep her hostage — especially not if she hooks up with Nymeria. Which is what I would like to see, and I'd also like to think Arya will bring the wolven army North. They'll be very handy for snow battles.

[Advance35]

LH is always awesome so I have know doubt I am going to love Cersei's Season 7 Storyline, my only question is how will screen time be divided.   Cersei, Euron, Qyburn with Jaimie mixed in is going to require a fair amount of screen time.   I assume Dany, Tyrion, Ellaria, Sand Snakes, Olenna and the Greyjoys will be an arc of their own with suitable screen time as well.   Then we have Jon, Sansa, Littlefinger, Davos, Brienne of Tarth and Podrick Payne.   How on earth are they going to fit in White Walkers and building them up?

[SeanC]

11 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Then we have Jon, Sansa, Littlefinger, Davos, Brienne of Tarth and Podrick Payne.   How on earth are they going to fit in White Walkers and building them up?

The show has fewer characters and plots now than at any time since Season 1.

[Oscirus]

Jon still has the whitewalker threat so even without LF he still has plenty of story.

If Euron kills one of the sand snakes it will likely be Nemeria since the actress is the one of the stars of the Iron Fist show. Euron built those ships really quick btw lol.

I think that Theon will get captured but Yara will wind up getting  killed rescuing him.

[ElizaD]

Theon can't continue the Greyjoy line, so I hope he's the one who gets captured and is part of a mass sacrifice that kills one of the dragons and finally makes Dany vulnerable for at least three seconds (a dead dragon could be a neat twist on 'the dragon has three heads' - nah, once again a prophecy turns out to be messy and after all the speculation Dany only ends up needing one more rider). If Theon is going to die in the North somehow, maybe the show decided to merge him and Damphair in the role of Euron's captive. Show Euron doesn't have the creepy magic vibe of Book Euron, though. Maybe Qyburn is given some of the maester conspiracy stuff so that he can suddenly turn out to have knowledge of magic and dragonslaying that'll prove helpful?

I'm not sure that Euron/Cersei will happen in the books but on the show it makes sense; Dany is now their enemy so they might as well use each other for a moment. They can sail to the Rock when Dany takes KL.

[OhOkayWhat]

8 hours ago, FemmyV said:

 

Jebus. If TIIC are planning on turning Season7 / North into The Sansa Show, what's the point in watching for the Sansa-ambivalent?

Arya can go where she damn well pleases, this time around Sandor/BwB aren't going to be able to keep her hostage — especially not if she hooks up with Nymeria. Which is what I would like to see, and I'd also like to think Arya will bring the wolven army North. They'll be very handy for snow battles.

1) Including a Jon-Sansa-Littlefinger subplot does not mean it will be the whole North plot

2) Arya as an single character can choose where to go, but Arya as a storyline within a bigger narrative, she needs to remain in the Riverlands or go South at least until the last episodes of the season. Sometimes an author needs to keep characters in different places to be able to develop properly the subplots.

3) I did not mean Sandor kidnapping Arya again, but instead of that, I think he will follow her wherever she decides to go.

[TxanGoddess]

On Jon not having much to do besides dealing with Sansa and LF ... surely he will find out he's a Targ in season 7?

I mean, the majority of speculation in this thread appears to be that next season will still be heavily political interactions with only preparation for the Final War with the WW, with most of that being saved for 8. 

And if that's the case, then I would think Jon's parentage would have be a big reveal during 7, even if all the implications of it weren't sorted until season 8. 

My hope is that the news really breaks to the public just after some sort of smoking gun confirmation to us as viewers about which side Sansa has chosen ... so that the information can either be her reward for choosing the right side, or her ultimate realization that she backed the wrong horse with LF ...

[SeanC]

5 minutes ago, TxanGoddess said:

On Jon not having much to do besides dealing with Sansa and LF ... surely he will find out he's a Targ in season 7?

That seems probable, though at what point is as yet unclear.  We don't have any sense of what Bran will be doing in Season 7 either yet -- it would make sense if he hightailed it to Winterfell, but that also raises many of the same potential problems as any of the southerly characters going there.

[FemmyV]

On 9/9/2016 at 3:22 AM, OhOkayWhat said:

2) Arya as an single character can choose where to go, but Arya as a storyline within a bigger narrative, she needs to remain in the Riverlands or go South at least until the last episodes of the season.

I find it hard to believe Arya in the North would fowl the writers' plans — and what are those plans, again? IIRC, it sounded like they intend to maximize conflict between Jon and Sansa. I can't think of a better way to do that, and stay true to the original outline, than have Sansa stuck watching the close relationship between Jon / Arya, with Baelish underfoot to stir up jealousy.

[OhOkayWhat]

Just now, FemmyV said:

I find it hard to believe Arya in the North would fowl the writers' plans — and what are those plans, again? IIRC, it sounded like they intend to maximize conflict between Jon and Sansa. I can't think of a better way to do that, and stay true to the original outline, than have Sansa stuck watching the close relationship between Jon / Arya, with Baelish underfoot to stir up jealousy.

I think, the plans are the Jon-Sansa-Littlefinger storyline. Also, the Hound story is tied to Arya in the show. Arya knows about Petyr-Tywin meeting and Sandor knows about Petyr-Ned knife incident. They have zero patience for court intrigues and as soon they arrive Winterfell, if Littlefinger is playing his mind games around Jon and Sansa, they will tell them about him and the very next second Jon and Sansa will look at each other, forgetting any discussion or problem they have and they will deal immediately with Littlefinger's machinations.

[WearyTraveler]

3 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

I think, the plans are the Jon-Sansa-Littlefinger storyline. Also, the Hound story is tied to Arya in the show. Arya knows about Petyr-Tywin meeting and Sandor knows about Petyr-Ned knife incident. They have zero patience for court intrigues and as soon they arrive Winterfell, if Littlefinger is playing his mind games around Jon and Sansa, they will tell them about him and the very next second Jon and Sansa will look at each other, forgetting any discussion or problem they have and they will deal immediately with Littlefinger's machinations.

I still have hope that the vision the crone from Oldstones had in the books was about Sansa slaying LF, in Winterfell.  All her other predictions came true, so, I'm hoping that what she saw was Sansa taking down "The Titan of Braavos" (the original sigil of LF's house), and not breaking Robin's "giant" doll over her snow castle at the Eyrie. Fingers crossed!!!

[YaddaYadda]

I'm not convinced that Arya's role will be all that big or all that significant in season 7. I think she's going to connect with Mel at some point, get news of what's going on in the North, spare her life, head to Winterfell with the first batch of people heading there, like the BwB. Mel doesn't even need to see them, Thoros and Beric are already going to the North because they know all about the threat and the long night. I think Mel will end up wherever Dany is because plot.

I even question Dany making it to KL at all. I know what Bran's visions say, the dragon flying over the city, and Dany's own visions, but Dany never sits on the throne in her vision. She doesn't even touch it. I think she'll touch down in Dragonstone (or even Storm's End because I think it makes more sense considering how many people she has with her), hop on Drogon and take a trip to KL to see the city and go from there. "To go north, you must journey south."

If Dany takes losses at sea, she might need time to regroup. And if she makes the decision to go help with the WW, then the alliance that she has with Dorne and Highgarden might breakdown.

[WearyTraveler]

"To go north you must go south" could mean landing in Dorne, which is the southern part of Westeros. From there they can start csmpaigning toward KL.

Dany has dragons, but she can't fly all her troops to KL. Her Foot will have to march and her Horse will have to ride.  Considering that part of her army will be Dorne's military forces, if she lands too far north she will have to sit and wait for them to arrive.

[YaddaYadda]

45 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

"To go north you must go south" could mean landing in Dorne, which is the southern part of Westeros. From there they can start csmpaigning toward KL.

Obviously, we won't know until the show gets back, but it always made very little sense to me that the Highgarden and Dornish fleets would go to Mereen, then head back to Westros. I think she connected with both houses in Dorne, picked up Varys (which would explain how he even got there in the first place), and is on her way to wherever she is supposed to really land. 

About King's blood. I've always thought that it had to do with Targaryen blood. It's just going to Mel's line about power in a king's blood, and using the leeches on Gendry (and Edric in the books) who has Targaryen blood coursing through his veins, or how she felt the power in Jon. How wildly spread is this belief that the blood has to be Targaryen blood? 

[WearyTraveler]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

Obviously, we won't know until the show gets back, but it always made very little sense to me that the Highgarden and Dornish fleets would go to Mereen, then head back to Westros.

But one of Dany's biggest problems in her quest to re-take the Iron throne has always been how to get her troops across the sea; in the books and on the show.  In the books she has no ships, and it seems she'll get the Iron fleet once Victarion gets there.  On the show she had the Meereenese fleet, but the Sons of the Harpy burned it (conveniently delaying her ability to cross the sea until the finale).

In the books she has 8,000 Unsullied, two sellsword companies (probably three after Tyrion and Jorah escape the mutiny in the slavers camps outside Meereen), thousands of former slaves that have been training under Barristan and Grey Worm to be soldiers, and is probably going to get a horde of Dothraki riders to switch to her side after they find her and Drogon.

On the show she has the 8,000 unsullied, the Dothraki horde, and the slaves.  They haven't focused too much on the sell-sword companies beyond showing us Daario, but we know she has fighters.

Transporting the Unsullied alone would require hundreds of ships.  Even if we estimate that their numbers have decreased because of the fights they have been in, she easily has 5,000 soldiers to transport, with their equipment.  If we say 200 soldiers to a ship, that's 250 ships she needs.  Add to that all the horses and their riders, and well, Dany probably needs at least 500 ships to get her army across the sea (in books and show).

So, whoever provides the ships for her needs to go get the people at Meereen and then turn back to Westeros.

In the books they will probably have her march to a port closer to Westeros, while on the show they are already on their way because D&D play fast and loose with distances (not a complaint, I think it's necessary to do that on TV).

Edited September 13, 2016 by WearyTraveler

[Eyes High]

On 2016-09-12 at 4:08 AM, OhOkayWhat said:

Sandor knows about Petyr-Ned knife incident.

No, he doesn't. And even if he did know, he would be completely unaware of its significance.

1. Sandor was busy cutting down Ned's men when Petyr held the knife to Ned's throat. He may not have seen anything and never said anything to suggest that he saw it happen.

2. Even if he had seen it, Sandor would have seen what he expected to see: a Lannister loyalist following orders and arresting a traitor. Sandor would not have seen anything strange in this, and it would be the height of hypocrisy for Sandor to accuse LF of being untrustworthy because he had faithfully served the Lannisters, since he himself also served the Lannisters faithfully for a long time.

3. Sandor had no knowledge of Ned and Petyr's pact, since it was made in secret, and Sandor lacks both the intellect and the intellectual curiosity to puzzle out the existence of said pact.

4. If Sandor knew that Petyr betrayed Ned, he would have known that by ACOK/Season 2. If Sandor had that information, there's no way he wouldn't have thrown it in Sansa's face during her KL captivity to shatter her illusions about her father. He didn't mention it at any point, even though they do discuss Ned. He doesn't say anything to Arya, either.

Sansa already knows that Petyr cooperated in Ned's arrest and said nothing in her father's defense. He's present in the throne room when she's begging for mercy for her father. She also accepts that her father committed treason. If Sandor tells her that he saw LF hold a knife to Ned's throat when he was arrested, Sansa wouldn't think anything of it; she already knew that LF was loyal to the Lannisters in the affair. She nevertheless chose to stick with him in Season 4 in spite of the knowledge that LF provided loyal service to the Lannisters during her captivity in KL, and in the books she considered his sinister "Littlefinger" side balanced by his kind, gentle "Petyr" side who helped her escape from KL, so it's not a dealbreaker for her in either the books or the show.

Moreover, Sansa knows that LF's love for her does not necessarily extend to her non-Cat family members. He murdered her aunt, for starters. She also knows that he is a terrible, untrustworthy person, but she is willing to overlook it as long as he is useful to her. Even if she did learn that Petyr betrayed Ned, would it change anything for her as long as she believed that he could advance her interests? I doubt it.

The idea of Sandor shattering Sansa's illusions about LF with info about LF betraying Ned makes no sense, since it makes three baseless assumptions:

1. Sansa has illusions about LF.

2. Sandor has information about LF betraying Ned.

3. Sandor's information would change Sansa's opinion of LF.

The same goes for Arya's knowledge of Petyr meeting with Tywin. Knowledge of Petyr acting the part of a dutiful Lannister stooge circa Season 1 or Season 2 wouldn't be new information for Sansa; she would have assumed as much, since she saw Petyr being handsomely rewarded by Joffrey at the end of Season 2 for service to the crown.

Sandor and/or Arya informing Jon and Sansa that LF is untrustworthy would be completely redundant after Sansa told Jon that LF is untrustworthy. The idea that this information from Sandor and/or Arya will be an earthshattering, gamechanging revelation for Jon and Sansa was directly contradicted by 6x10, where Sansa told Jon that LF was untrustworthy, and Jon accepted this. They already know. Nevertheless, he has proven his usefulness, to Sansa at least, which is all that matters to her now that she appears to be satisfied that LF has atoned for the Ramsay disaster.

The only thing that could have any significant impact on Sansa's opinion of Littlefinger at this point is evidence that he deliberately harmed her. Not her family, not even Ned (whom Sansa acknowledged as a traitor worthy of punishment), but her. The line in the sand for Sansa seems to be harming her deliberately (and even that seems to be qualified by a "without good reason" caveat, since she is willing to overlook LF arranging to have her framed for murder since it seemed to be the price of her freedom from the Lannisters). Neither Sandor nor Arya has any information on that score.

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[Sandor and Arya] have zero patience for court intrigues and as soon they arrive Winterfell, if Littlefinger is playing his mind games around Jon and Sansa, they will tell them about him and the very next second Jon and Sansa will look at each other, forgetting any discussion or problem they have and they will deal immediately with Littlefinger's machinations.

Sansa has no problem with LF's "machinations" and "mind games," as long as they benefit her. As long as she believes that LF is the only one who can and will advance her interests, which seems likely given the hints in Season 6, she will push back vigorously against anyone who tries to get rid of him.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

The idea of Sandor shattering Sansa's illusions about LF with info about LF betraying Ned makes no sense, since it makes three baseless assumptions:

1. Sansa has illusions about LF.

Book!Sansa does have illusions about Littlefinger, though, so while you can debate whether this has been altered for the show character, the show has repeatedly reverted to whatever the book endgame is without regard to the changes it has made.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Book!Sansa does have illusions about Littlefinger, though

I disagree. Book Sansa sees two sides to LF: "Littlefinger" (the malevolent, dangerous manipulator) and "Petyr" (warm, funny, and gentle). Sansa is also aware of "Littlefinger" mode, when she switches between "Petyr" and "Littlefinger" in the AFFC and TWOW chapters depending on what LF is saying. GRRM has compared LF to Jay Gatsby more than once and has said that that LF's feelings towards Sansa are genuine (both paternal and romantic). GRRM in an interview has said that at times LF is more "Petyr" and at other times he's more "Littlefinger." Sansa, like GRRM, sees and acknowledges both aspects to LF, whereas Cat saw only "Petyr" (the sweet, gentle, boy who truly loved her) and people like Tyrion see only "Littlefinger" (the self-interested and calculating conniver). It's people like Tyrion and Cat who had illusions about LF, since both characters only ever saw one side of him.

In a nutshell, GRRM seems to agree with Sansa's take on LF's personality. She doesn't have any illusions about LF; if anything, she is the only one who truly understands him. This notion that Sansa has some gross misapprehension of LF's character or actions in AGOT that Sandor's intervention must and will correct is baseless in both mediums. It's made very clear in both the books and the show that she knows and accepts that LF served the Lannisters in KL faithfully and was rewarded for his service while she was trapped there; therefore, Sandor's information about Petyr holding a knife to Ned's throat would change nothing for her (she would have assumed as much anyway and accepts that Ned committed treason). In seeing and acknowledging both sides of LF--the opportunistic Machiavellian and the romantic who truly loves her--Sansa has LF's number in both the books and the show; she's the only one who does.

I won't even get into the implications of what it would mean for Sansa's supposed development as a master player that she was so obtuse when it came to LF that she required the intervention of a political idiot like Sandor to "see the truth" about him. If Sansa is on track to become the baddest and best game player in all of Westeros, how can she be so blind when it comes to LF that she needs not Tyrion, not Varys, but Sandor of all people to set her straight? That is the height of absurdity. Either she's a master game player as of Season 6/TWOW who has LF's number and keeps him around anyway for her own pragmatic purposes, or she's the same blind, naive fool from AGOT who must rely on a non-player (Sandor) to tell her that water is wet and who has learned absolutely nothing. The latter seems utterly illogical in terms of character development.

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the show has repeatedly reverted to whatever the book endgame is without regard to the changes it has made.

The show has gone to some pains to show that Sansa remains allied with LF and is intrigued by his vision of her on the Iron Throne with only 13 episodes (in all likelihood) remaining. Sansa being paired up with LF appears very important to her endgame arc, as does tension with Jon. Otherwise the writers would have separated LF and Sansa for good and all or have Sansa take a stronger, harsher tack with LF in the finale. It's important that Sansa and LF be paired up and on the same side. Now, that could be because Sansa needs Sandor to open her eyes about LF's true untrustworthy nature--which she already knows, by the way--and that all of her supposed "development" as a player was a big, fat red herring. It could also be because Sansa will remain allied with LF for the foreseeable future and won't have some moment of revelation where she suddenly realizes something she already knows quite well. I know for my part which I believe is more likely.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

8 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Sansa being paired up with LF appears very important to her endgame arc.

Er, yeah, none of that contradicts what I said.  To me that comes across as the writers jumping through hoops to keep her aligned with him for the final resolution, whatever that is (and, e.g., the Hound all but declaring that he's heading North tends to support one particular view of how that will play out; I myself had been uncertain whether that was the likely endgame, but after 608 it seems more likely than not).

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GRRM has compared LF to Jay Gatsby more than once and has said that that LF's feelings towards Sansa are genuine (both paternal and romantic). GRRM in an interview has said that at times LF is more "Petyr" and at other times he's more "Littlefinger." Sansa, like GRRM, sees and acknowledges both aspects to LF, whereas Cat saw only "Petyr" (the sweet, gentle, boy who truly loved her) and people like Tyrion see only "Littlefinger" (the self-interested and calculating conniver). It's people like Tyrion and Cat who had illusions about LF, since both characters only ever saw one side of him.

That she more accurately perceives that feature of his personality does not mean she lacks illusions about him.  She spends much of AFFC forcing down her misapprehensions about Baelish and trying to make things as comfortable for herself as possible, as she has concluded she has nowhere else to go (while at the same time suppressing her Stark identity, in parallel with Arya's storyline).  Confronting pleasant (or at times necessary) illusions is a recurring theme in Sansa's storyline.

This all speculation on both our parts of course, so we'll ultimately have to wait for Season 7 or TWOW (possibly; for all we know in the books this will last until ADOS) to indicate who is right.

Edited September 13, 2016 by SeanC

[Eyes High]

34 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Er, yeah, none of that contradicts what I said.  To me that comes across as the writers jumping through hoops to keep her aligned with him for the final resolution, whatever that is (and, e.g., the Hound all but declaring that he's heading North tends to support one particular view of how that will play out; I myself had been uncertain whether that was the likely endgame, but after 608 it seems more likely than not).

The idea that Sansa requires Sandor to correct illusions about LF--illusions which she doesn't have in the show or the books--would completely negate her arc in both mediums, since it would mean that she was so unevolved and so hopelessly stunted as a player that she needed a non-player's assistance to "see the truth" about LF (a truth it's clear she already knows). You are assuming that Sansa and LF remain paired at this point and not permanently estranged so that the Hound can sweep in at a later point and rescue her from her own incompetence and blindness. That would represent Sansa's utter failure as a player and the collapse of her character development. And that could happen, sure, but that would be spectacularly terrible and illogical writing. GRRM has his flaws as a writer, but I stop short of accusing him of being capable of that kind of nonsense.

In any event, even assuming that 1) Sansa has illusions about LF, 2) Sandor is aware of the significance of the knife incident and 3) Sandor sees fit to communicate this info to Sansa despite having withheld it during ACOK/Season 2 (all of which when taken together represent an enormous leap of logic), for this theory to work, one must make one more big assumption: Sandor's info will change Sansa's mind about LF.

She already knows that LF served the Lannisters in KL and lifted not one finger to help her, let alone Ned (and it's "Littlefinger's" failure to help her that Book Sansa is pissed about, not his cooperation with Cersei and the Lannisters in Ned's downfall, or his presence in the throne room at Cersei's side when she begged for Ned's life). She took note in ACOK/Season 2 of LF receiving special honours from Joffrey for his service to the crown (i.e. the Lannisters). She is fully aware that circa AGOT, LF was dutifully serving the Lannisters and doing nothing to help her father. The idea that Sandor has any information that will change Sansa's mind about LF is fannish speculation with no basis in either the books or the show. It seems like pure wishful thinking to me, frankly.

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Confronting pleasant illusions is a recurring theme in Sansa's storyline.

I'd say the greater theme is Sansa's growth as a player, and I doubt that this would be sacrificed in favour of a "confronting pleasant illusions" motif, since one would cancel out the other. Either Sansa has learned nothing since AGOT and is so foolish and blind that she needs Sandor to sweep in and rescue her from her own delusions, or she's a player who is clever and savvy and therefore grasps the truth about Petyr but remain allied with him anyway.

Now, personally, I'm not 100% convinced that Sansa's arc is about her development as a master player, given Sansa's many gaffes (and her relative lack of development in that area in AFFC compared to Arya's FM lessons and Jon and Dany's crash course in ruling). If it is, though, there is no way that the crowning moment of her arc would be Sansa requiring Sandor's--a non-player--assistance and guidance to do the very thing she had supposedly spent the entire series learning how to do. That makes no sense to me. I don't think it makes any sense to GRRM, either. If she is sticking with LF in the show for the moment, it's not so Sandor can later ride in on his white charger of truth and rescue her from her own stupidity and naivete. It's probably because, in my opinion, Sansa's big dramatic break with LF that so many fans are praying for...isn't actually going to happen.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

49 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

In any event, even assuming that 1) Sansa has illusions about LF, 2) Sandor is aware of the significance of the knife incident and 3) Sandor sees fit to communicate this info to Sansa despite having withheld it during ACOK/Season 2 (all of which when taken together represent an enormous leap of logic), for this theory to work, one must make one more big assumption: Sandor's info will change Sansa's mind about LF.

She already knows that LF served the Lannisters in KL and lifted not one finger to help her, let alone Ned (and it's "Littlefinger's" failure to help her that Book Sansa is pissed about, not his cooperation with Cersei and the Lannisters in Ned's downfall, or his presence in the throne room at Cersei's side when she begged for Ned's life). She took note in ACOK/Season 2 of LF receiving special honours from Joffrey for his service to the crown (i.e. the Lannisters). She is fully aware that circa AGOT, LF was dutifully serving the Lannisters and doing nothing to help her father. The idea that Sandor has any information that will change Sansa's mind about LF is fannish speculation with no basis in either the books or the show. It seems like pure wishful thinking to me, frankly.

...

Either Sansa has learned nothing since AGOT and is so foolish and blind that she needs Sandor to sweep in and rescue her from her own delusions, or she's a player who is clever and savvy and therefore grasps the truth about Petyr but remain allied with him anyway.

Sansa in the books isn't with Littlefinger because she likes him or wants to be there; she's with him because he contrived to take custody of her and she feels she has nowhere else to go, a situation he has exploited to manipulate her into feeling more favourable to him (and in that respect, the Hound's mere presence as somebody she might feel she could rely on would be a big deal, given how much she has built him up since he ran off), and which has led to her trying to blot out negative information that she can't do anything about, a recurring theme in her story.  I myself have wondered how exactly her learning this information would play out, but making the final mental break from a guy who has been very obviously grooming her in the way a pedophile does isn't the end of the story; there would still remain the issue of what she would do next.  That's where she would actually use the skills she has learned to actively work on her own behalf, rather than doing what he wants her to do.

Also, on the third point, there was no particular reason to communicate that information in Season 2/ACOK (quite apart from how fraught their interactions were then anyway).  Littlefinger and Sansa weren't interacting at all.

Edited September 13, 2016 by SeanC

[OhOkayWhat]

8 hours ago, Eyes High said:

The idea of Sandor shattering Sansa's illusions about LF with info about LF betraying Ned makes no sense, since it makes three baseless assumptions:

1. Sansa has illusions about LF.

2. Sandor has information about LF betraying Ned.

3. Sandor's information would change Sansa's opinion of LF

You make very strong points. I agree with some things in 1) and 3), I disagree most with 2).

I explain myself:

About 2)

If we watch the scene again, even if we do not know the previous pact between Petyr and Ned, it kinda looks like a betrayal is happening.

a)The City Watch Commander Janos (not sure if he was Commander at that point of the story) and the Starks enter together into the Throne Room. (Petyr and Varys too) .

b)It is also not a normal meeting, it is a man (Ned) with a mission: Robert Baratheon wishes in his hand.

c)Sandor read very well the posture, attitude and movements of fighters, and he is watching what is happening in front of him: first, the Gold Cloacks seems to support Ned side, they even point their spears against Cercei and Joffrey then suddenly after someone scream "Now!" the City Watch attacks (more or less) from behind to a very surprised Stark troops and a very surprised Ned. And the attack happens without any hesitation from, it seems all the Gold Cloaks there, therefore, it looks like it is someone's plan and not like a last second change of decision of all the Gold Cloacks at the same time (except Barristan, of course). Janos's plan? or maybe Petyr's? Why Littlefinger? I explain in the next point:

d)Living years in the Red Keep, near to the Golden Cloaks, it is possible he knows about the "loyalty" to the payment and who is currently paying them: Petyr (that is not a secret, as far I remember).

e)It kinda seems, like Sandor is looking at the Petyr-Ned scene with the knife when it happens, or at least a part of it. This last point it is not necessary to make Sandor thinking about a betrayal, but it helps.

With a+b+c+d together, is very possible Sandor strongly suspect that the City Watch betrayed the Stark and suspect that Petyr betrayed Ned too.

About him never telling Sansa about Petyr, to tell her that and to risk she inadvertently telling Littlefinger Sandor told her? Sandor is out of Petyr radar as an enemy, I doubt he wants Littlefinger as one.
Not telling Arya makes sense, because Petyr was never the subject of their conversations.

About 1) and 3)

Certainly, it is true we have not proof Sansa will change her attitude towards Petyr if she finds about the betrayal. But we also we are not sure if that change is not possible. Sansa should care about all the damage that Petyr caused. She should care about all his victims: people she knows and the people whose name she does not know too. Everyone. But maybe Sansa emotional response will be different if she finds it was her father the victim of the betrayal. Maybe not, we are not sure. To analyze Sansa attitude towards her father while she was captive, we must to remember she was surrounded for Cercei people, and as far I remember, she did not know about King Robert letter and even without that information, she tried to defend her father. Therefore, we do not know her future reaction if she finds Ned and Petyr went to confront Cercei, and Petyr betrayed her father. Maybe she thinks Petyr just followed whatever almost everyone (from the Capital) else did and not betrayal was included in the events.

Jon does not know everything Sansa knows. He knows Petyr is a man that uses court intrigues in his benefit. That he knows.Therefore, he knows he is dangerous, and maybe that is the reason he is not surprised when Sansa warns him about Petyr. But again, we are forgetting about the emotional response of the character about a specific event and about a specific victim. Jon should think about all the other people that Petyr made suffer, but I strongly suspect that his attitude toward Littlefinger will change if he knows about Petyr and the betrayal, event about he almost does not know anything.

Also, it does matter what Arya thinks about Littlefinger, not only because it is possible she telling her siblings about him will change their attitude towards Petyr, it matters because she also will take her own decisions about him.
In other words, even if Sansa attitude towards Littlefinger does not change, it is enough Jon and Arya (and Sandor) taking a different decision about him to cause a kinda open civil war among the  Stark.And really doubt that is the plan of the showrunners. All this besides the fact it take a lot time away from Arya own storyline, and possibly leave unresolved her own plot issues.

And even if that is the plan of the showrunners, then , as I said in my comment, Arya-Sandor arriving too early to Winterfell means the end of the plot as D and D suggested, an instead it could be the beginning of a new plot: something like a civil war among the Stark with Petyr-Sansa vs. Jon-Arya. Therefore, I will say again, I think making them go to Winterfell before the last episodes of the season means the end of the Jon-Sansa-Littlefinger storyline with the beggining of another plot with Sansa fighting side by side and helping Petyr againts her siblings, instead the "little bit of jealosy that Sansa feels about all the spotlight Jon receives" plot.

Edited September 13, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[Lady S.]

Well, well, welly, well, folks, WotW is now reporting that a certain Joseph Dempsie has been spotted in a Belfast airport.

[SeanC]

51 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Well, well, welly, well, folks, WotW is now reporting that a certain Joseph Dempsie has been spotted in a Belfast airport.

Getting off the boat at last?

[screamin]

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

In a nutshell, GRRM seems to agree with Sansa's take on LF's personality. She doesn't have any illusions about LF; if anything, she is the only one who truly understands him.

I tend to agree with SeanC that BookSansa as we saw her in her TWoW chapter definitely still has illusions about LF. Foremost among them is her lingering regard for poor miserable doomed SweetRobin, when in her innermost thoughts she wishes him well and hopes he one day marries a nice highborn maiden who definitely isn't herself...when it has been quite obvious since at least A Feast for Crows that as soon as LF gets Sansa married off to Harry the Heir, Robin will be unnecessary and therefore dispensed with. There is also the denial she shows when she thinks about LF as Father in her innermost thoughts while doing her best NOT to think about the fact that really good fathers don't usually touch their daughter's breasts or kiss them on the mouth, as LF does.

I wouldn't call it illusions, exactly, I'd call it Stockholm Syndrome. And it was necessary for her to do it. She needed to split Baelish up in her mind between LF,  the evil man who'd murder anyone he felt he needed to, and Petyr, the likable friend, because he demanded that she act as his loving daughter at ALL times, and she knew that if she didn't do it convincingly, he'd end up getting rid of her too. If she thought of him as Littlefinger the cold-blooded murderer at all times, she would involuntarily cower and cringe - which would raise all sorts of questions about why LF's daughter is acting like a terrified stranger toward him - questions that might make Sansa too much of a risk for him to keep her alive. So she does her best to think of him as Petyr the caring friend and father figure, the one she can easily relate to and act affectionately in public with, and only thinks of him as Littlefinger when it's unavoidable. It's a survival mechanism, and it's served her well so far.

I think a sign of hope for Sansa is that she hasn't forced herself to forget that LF the murderer still exists - her denial's not complete. And I think the books (and probably the show, too) are eventually aiming at a point when denial's not going to be possible anymore. Whether that point will be when LF decides to kill SweetRobin or when Sansa learns he helped kill her father, or both, I think Sansa will be faced with a choice whether to concede permanently all power to LF or stick her neck out and try to outsmart him enough to seize power and defeat him.

[anamika]

5 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Well, well, welly, well, folks, WotW is now reporting that a certain Joseph Dempsie has been spotted in a Belfast airport.

Yes!! Looking forward to Arya and Gendry meeting in the Riverlands again. I think we will see her building up her pack again with Gendry, Nymeria etc. Maybe even HotPie! And then the merry band heads North and finally gets to their destination...

GRRM has mentioned that he will revisit Arya/Gendry. So maybe we will get that on the show.

Edited September 14, 2016 by anamika

[Eyes High]

15 hours ago, SeanC said:

Sansa in the books isn't with Littlefinger because she likes him or wants to be there; she's with him because he contrived to take custody of her and she feels she has nowhere else to go, a situation he has exploited to manipulate her into feeling more favourable to him (...)

Also, on the third point, there was no particular reason to communicate that information in Season 2/ACOK (quite apart from how fraught their interactions were then anyway).  Littlefinger and Sansa weren't interacting at all.

However the situation was created, Sansa sees a side of Littlefinger that GRRM acknowledges exists. She isn't deluded as to Littlefinger's true nature; she is the only one who perceives and accepts this duality. In that sense, she is under no illusions when it comes to LF. She knows he can be dangerous and self-serving, even when it comes to her ("Littlefinger was no friend of hers"), but she also knows that Petyr can be warm, funny, and gentle and went to some trouble to help her get out of KL, all of which is true. Her view of LF's character--that he has a good side--is not a popular one, but it is GRRM's view of the character and therefore the correct one. The circumstances through which she came to have that view of LF do not invalidate the correctness of that view. Sansa and GRRM have the same take on LF; Sansa is right about LF.

Furthermore, TV Sansa is also fully aware of Littlefinger's manifestly untrustworthy nature and chooses to keep him in her life anyway as long as she's satisfied that his nefariousness is not deliberately aimed at her. That suggests that Book Sansa will make the same decision and have the same feelings about LF regardless of coercion and isolation and well past her stint in the Vale. Therefore, what is important is not how she came to see him as he truly is, but that she came to see him that way at all. TV Sansa and Book Sansa will end up in the same place: paired with LF even after Sansa leaves the Vale and has shed her Alayne identity. If Book Sansa is still paired with LF in the North when she has the full power of her name and people rallying behind the Starks, free of the isolation and coercion associated with hiding out as "Alayne" in the Vale, and all indications are that she will be, it will be by choice; it doesn't and won't matter how she came to think so highly of LF, only that she does. It seems to me that saying "But...but...she only currently sees LF that way in the books because of coercion!" is missing the forest for the trees.

As for the suggestion that there was no good moment for Sandor to drop the Petyr/Ned bomb you're suggesting he somehow has, Sansa and Sandor were talking about Ned in ACOK/Season 2, and Sansa was staunchly defending Ned's valour (he never liked killing, etc.). It would have been the perfect time to bring up Ned's honour getting him killed in KL (and to needle Sansa about her own obliviousness). He didn't withhold that information because it wasn't the right time; he withheld it because he didn't see anything peculiar in how LF acted and forgot about it.

14 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

 Sansa should care about all the damage that Petyr caused.

Sure, Sansa should care about the damage Petyr has caused, but the only damage LF has caused that Sansa has ever cared about in the show was damage done directly and deliberately to her by LF. Not her family, not her friends, not people LF had thrown under the bus for her benefit like Dontos, but her. Book Sansa has also been willing to handwave all the damage LF has caused, including two murders committed before her eyes and a third death caused through the Marillion frame-up, because he has personally helped her, and although her motivations differ in the books (being under LF's thumb), the fact that TV Sansa is equally indifferent to LF's misdeeds after gaining the upper hand with LF suggests that Book Sansa's feelings about LF's evildoing won't change at all when the power balance between them shifts as it did in the show in Season 4. Long story short, the coercion and isolation are not the point: Sansa coming to like and admire LF's way of doing things is the point.

10 hours ago, screamin said:

I tend to agree with SeanC that BookSansa as we saw her in her TWoW chapter definitely still has illusions about LF. Foremost among them is her lingering regard for poor miserable doomed SweetRobin, when in her innermost thoughts she wishes him well and hopes he one day marries a nice highborn maiden who definitely isn't herself...when it has been quite obvious since at least A Feast for Crows that as soon as LF gets Sansa married off to Harry the Heir, Robin will be unnecessary and therefore dispensed with. There is also the denial she shows when she thinks about LF as Father in her innermost thoughts while doing her best NOT to think about the fact that really good fathers don't usually touch their daughter's breasts or kiss them on the mouth, as LF does.

Doesn't this confirm my point, though? Sansa doesn't have illusions about LF, because she clearly knows he can be dangerous and self-serving, even if she hasn't put the pieces together yet when it comes to Sweetrobin being poisoned. She wouldn't be nearly as committed to the Alayne charade if she hadn't seen up close and personal what LF did to people who got in his way (not to mention that LF casually threatened Sansa with more deaths in AFFC if she failed to keep her mouth shut). However, AFFC Sansa also senses--correctly, according to GRRM--that Littlefinger has a warm, gentle and kind side and that he genuinely cares for her, and she responds to this side as well, viewing Petyr as not only warm, funny and gentle, but also admirably brave, clever and competent. As of TWOW, she even looks forward to the prospect of making Petyr "howl with laughter." This is in line with GRRM's take on the character.

As for Stockholm Syndrome, because I don't think GRRM thinks of the relationship in those terms--no more than he thinks of Dany/Drogo in those terms--and I don't think he attaches a value judgment to the way Petyr is treating Sansa. My impression of GRRM from his interviews is that he finds those sorts of attempts to diagnose characters with various psychological syndromes or to impose modern perspectives on his pseudomedieval world tedious. Like many relationships in ASOIAF, romantic or otherwise, which began under coercive or even abusive circumstances, Petyr's treatment of Sansa or the development of their relationship is not some unqualified evil or some particular itineration of this or that "syndrome"; it just is. It doesn't matter how Sansa came to see Petyr's warm, kind side, only that she does and that that influences her view of him.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

15 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

However the situation was created, Sansa sees a side of Littlefinger that GRRM acknowledges exists. She isn't deluded as to Littlefinger's true nature; she is the only one who perceives and accepts this duality. In that sense, she is under no illusions when it comes to LF. She knows he can be dangerous and self-serving, even when it comes to her ("Littlefinger was no friend of hers"), but she also knows that Petyr can be warm, funny, and gentle and went to some trouble to help her get out of KL, all of which is true. Her view of LF's character--that he has a good side--is not a popular one, but it is GRRM's view of the character and therefore the correct one. The circumstances through which she came to have that view of LF do not invalidate the correctness of that view. Sansa and GRRM have the same take on LF; Sansa is right about LF. The circumstances are irrelevant.

It's correct that she understands the different aspects of his personality better, but that doesn't mean we're meant to think "Petyr" is actually good, or that his grooming of her is.  He is manipulating her very deliberately to serve his own fantasies, and that's not something GRRM presents positively.

Quote

Book Sansa has also been willing to handwave all the damage LF has caused, including two murders committed before her eyes, because he has personally helped her, and although her motivations differ in the books (being under LF's thumb), the fact that TV Sansa is equally indifferent to LF's misdeeds after gaining the upper hand with LF suggests that Book Sansa's feelings about LF's evildoing won't change at all when the power balance between them shifts as it did in the show in Season 4.

,,,

Furthermore, TV Sansa is also fully aware of Littlefinger's manifestly untrustworthy nature and chooses to keep him in her life anyway as long as she's satisfied that his nefariousness is not deliberately aimed at her. That suggests that Book Sansa will make the same decision and have the same feelings about LF regardless of coercion and isolation and well past her stint in the Vale.

Considering how much stuff this show has changed, that's a huge leap as far as I'm concerned.  Sansa's relationship with Baelish has been different on this show pretty much from the get-go, and that plot is incredibly different as well.  The writers have not demonstrated that degree of fidelity to themes and character that would make such a conclusion obvious.

Quote

As for the suggestion that there was no good moment for Sandor to drop the Petyr/Ned bomb you're suggesting he somehow has, Sansa and Sandor were talking about Ned in ACOK/Season 2, and Sansa was staunchly defending Ned's valour (he never liked killing, etc.). It would have been the perfect time to bring up Ned's honour getting him killed in KL (and to needle Sansa about her own obliviousness). He didn't withhold that information because it wasn't the right time; he withheld it because he didn't see anything peculiar in how LF acted and forgot about it.

Sure, he could have said that, much like Tyrion could have told Tywin about all the stuff Baelish did.  But neither did, because the plot required it.  Beyond plot mandate, just because it's a possible variant of a conversation they could have (and Sandor does mock Ned's honour, etc.) doesn't mean that the fact that it didn't happen means that he doesn't have this information.

Edited September 14, 2016 by SeanC

[Eyes High]

53 minutes ago, SeanC said:

It's correct that she understands the different aspects of his personality better, but that doesn't mean we're meant to think "Petyr" is actually good, or that his grooming of her is.  He is manipulating her very deliberately to serve his own fantasies, and that's not something GRRM presents positively.

Considering how much stuff this show has changed, that's a huge leap as far as I'm concerned.  Sansa's relationship with Baelish has been different on this show pretty much from the get-go, and that plot is incredibly different as well.  The writers have not demonstrated that degree of fidelity to themes and character that would make such a conclusion obvious.

Sure, he could have said that, much like Tyrion could have told Tywin about all the stuff Baelish did.  But neither did, because the plot required it.  Beyond plot mandate, just because it's a possible variant of a conversation they could have (and Sandor does mock Ned's honour, etc.) doesn't mean that the fact that it didn't happen means that he doesn't have this information.

Petyr: He isn't "actually good," but he isn't 100% bad, either. GRRM has said that no character of his is 100% bad, and moreover has compared Littlefinger to Gatsby. The side of him that Sansa sees is indeed good, as acknowledged by GRRM. That doesn't mean she's deluded or suffers under illusions. There's a danger of missing important aspects of what GRRM is trying to communicate about Sansa's arc by getting tied up in value judgments about LF: Petyr is bad and what he is doing to Sansa is wrong, and therefore Sansa's view of Petyr's good side and increasingly warm feelings towards Petyr must be completely discounted as a product of his manipulations, Stockholm Syndrome, etc. etc. There's more going on there.

Whatever the cause or the reason for it, Sansa sees a side of LF that he truly possesses according to GRRM, and moreover that perception is influencing her view of and feelings towards LF. Focusing on how horribly and manipulatively Petyr is acting in this situation doesn't change any of that. Her feelings are what matter, not how they came about. What matters more for Sansa's arc from a story and character perspective? That LF manipulated her into being trapped at close quarters, or that through that manipulation she embarked on training in the game of thrones and coming to see LF in an increasingly positive light? What matters more for Sansa's arc? That Sandor stalked her, made sexual comments to her, threatened to kill her and held a knife to her throat, or that she sees him as a protector? Drogo raped Dany repeatedly and she still fell in love with him. What matters more for Dany's arc? That he treated her horribly and was undoubtedly abusive towards her, or that she loved him and mourned him as the love of her life? What matters more for Brienne's arc? That Jaime mocked her relentlessly, or that she fell in love with him? To me, it's pretty straightforward.

That GRRM sees Dany/Drogo as a great love story in spite of its coercive beginnings, and has cheerfully copped to toying with SanSan despite all the gross and abusive implications of that relationship, suggests to me that he's completely uninterested in these sort of stark, binary views of characters and relationships. Of course the relationship is abusive and fucked up. So? Welcome to ASOIAF. If GRRM doesn't care about such things, and the way he has written relationships in ASOIAF and spoken about those relationships suggests he does not, then you shouldn't, either.

Book/TV changes and LF: It seems strange that you're arguing that Sansa's relationship with Petyr is so altered from the books that we can't possibly read anything into the fact that they're still allied in the show when the show is well into TWOW territory. Weren't you arguing just a few posts ago that the Sandor/Sansa confrontation over LF is likely to happen in the show because you think it seems likely to happen in the books and the writers will therefore write it in to get back "on track" from TV deviations? Well, if in the show, Sansa and LF are still allies when Sansa is long free of the Vale, and the writers went to some pains to get LF and Sansa working together again after a show-only betrayal, then by the logic you previously applied, Book Sansa will similarly remain allied with LF long after the Vale's out of the picture, since the writers got back "on track" from book deviations.

Sandor: The assumption that Sandor will suddenly burst forth with some information he withheld from Sansa despite having had ample opportunity and the perfect context to impart that information is completely illogical to me. The "Sandor enlightens Sansa about LF by dropping the Petyr/Ned knife incident and Sansa turns her back on LF forever as a result" theory rests on a number of baseless assumptions (Sandor would have remarked something strange about Petyr's actions), but this one strikes me as the most absurd.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

29 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

What matters more for Sansa's arc from a story and character perspective? That LF manipulated her into being trapped at close quarters, or that through that manipulation she embarked on training in the game of thrones and coming to see LF in an increasingly positive light?

Both of those things matter.  I haven't said otherwise.  But Sansa's increasingly positive view of Littlefinger is the result of her playing down how dangerous he is and how uncomfortable he makes her, which is pretty much the same thing she did with Joffrey; hence, it's a recurring motif in her arc.  She eventually saw the full truth of Joffrey, and it's not exactly a leap that the same will be true of Littlefinger in time (and what she sees of him now is not the full truth).  Indeed, as you outline, you hit on the duality of what Baelish is doing to her:  he's imparting valuable skills, but he's also trying to remake her into his daughter/sex doll, rather than Ned and Catelyn's daughter -- and Sansa's assertion of her Stark identity and her status as "the blood of Winterfell" is another vital part of her arc.

Mentally breaking with Littlefinger is not the endpoint of the arc, it's just a major turning point (and one that all of Baelish's psychological conditioning is meant to be prevent -- he's playing at cross-purposes).  The issue of what she does from there is where she'd bring her new skills to bear, free of Baelish's control.

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Book/TV changes and LF: It seems strange that you're arguing that Sansa's relationship with Petyr is so altered from the books that we can't possibly read anything into the fact that they're still allied in the show when the show is well into TWOW territory. Weren't you arguing just a few posts ago that the Sandor/Sansa confrontation over LF is likely to happen in the show because you think it seems likely to happen in the books and the writers will therefore write it in to get back "on track" from TV deviations?

That wasn't what I said.  That they're still allied rather than having her permanently discard him after Ramsay, which is what would actually make sense in-universe, shows that the writers are trying to preserve the loose outline of the book endgame, which occurs in an environment where Littlefinger didn't send Sansa to rape camp.  

It doesn't follow, however, that Sansa in the book is, if she arrives in a situation where she's actually independent of Littlefinger, going to react like the show's version does.  That kind of detail is the sort of thematic and character nuance that regularly differs radically between the book and the show.  The show effectively substituted having Sansa be "independent" but still do whatever Baelish wants her to for the whole Alayne relationship, but it doesn't follow that the latter leads to the former; that's what Baelish wants, obviously.  And how all of this relates to how and when Sansa leaves the Vale is wholly up in the air.

And on the specific point of Sandor's role, this isn't a case where I used something I thought would happen in the books to dictate what happens in the show.  Rather, in this case the show, by flagging that Sandor is likely going north next season (though probably not right away) suggested to me that a longstanding book theory has a strong chance of being true.  In this case, one can see the broad outlines of the potential plot emerging.  I don't use the show as the basis for anything other than broad plot speculation, because its takes on characters and themes are regularly so different (to the point of being, in many cases, the complete opposite of the source material).

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Sandor: The assumption that Sandor will suddenly burst forth with some information he withheld from Sansa despite having had ample opportunity and the perfect context to impart that information is completely illogical to me.

He didn't have the perfect context, though; the perfect context would be if Sansa was known to be interacting with Littlefinger.  Anything else is just a "well, he could have fit it into this conversation", and you could as easily say that about, e.g., Tyrion's obviously plot-motivated failure to do anything about Littlefinger in ACOK and ASOS.

Edited September 14, 2016 by SeanC

[Eyes High]

Quote

Both of those things matter.

Not for the story, they don't. One is relevant for Sansa's arc (her feelings about LF), while the other (his terrible treatment of her) is not. What matters for the fans--GRRM would never write SanSan because it's abusive, e.g.--is not relevant for GRRM, nor for Sansa's arc. If GRRM doesn't care, then the fans shouldn't use that as a useful benchmark for evaluating what's going on. Trying to shut down an examination of Sansa's changing feelings towards LF and her understanding of him by pointing to how horribly he is treating her is missing the point. Beginning and ending with how horrible LF is and trying to examine Sansa's arc from that standpoint is moralizing, not analysis, and if there's one thing that's clear about ASOIAF, GRRM doesn't do moralizing.

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I haven't said otherwise.  But Sansa's increasingly positive view of Littlefinger is the result of her playing down how dangerous he is

As I said, the horror of LF's actions towards her don't matter, if she views him positively and acts based on that viewpoint. Moreover, as I have said, GRRM has made comments indicating that Sansa's view of LF's dual nature is the correct one. Sansa is also fully aware in both mediums that he is dangerous. She is also fully aware that he has a good side and that her genuinely cares about her. She's not wrong. One does not negate the other. She's not deluded just because she's aware of the existence of his good side. GRRM has the same view.

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She eventually saw the full truth of Joffrey, and it's not exactly a leap that the same will be true of Littlefinger in time (and what she sees of him now is not the full truth). 

The Joffrey=Littlefinger analogy doesn't work at all, because Littlefinger does have that different side for him, in that he truly cares for Sansa. In many ways, their relationship is the reverse of Joffrey/Sansa, since Sansa starts off with uneasy feelings about Littlefinger and comes to view him in a better and better light as she gets to know him, admiring his intelligence, skill, competence, and courage and being grateful for the help he provided her. With Joffrey, on the other hand, she starts out with an extremely positive impression and refuses to allow anything to dislodge her initial impression of his wonderfulness, no matter how badly he treats her. In this sense, it's much closer to Sandor/Sansa--an initial frightening impression followed by a gradual softening and sympathy after he offered assistance and protection--than Joffrey/Sansa. Sandor/Sansa and Littlefinger/Sansa have much more in common with each other as Sansa's primary relationships in the books, as they both involved mentoring and confidence/trust gained through protection (although Littlefinger/Sansa seems to be the most prominent relationship in the show), and Littlefinger and Sandor have far more parallels than Littlefinger and Joffrey: outcast, much older than Sansa, not Sansa's equal in social standing, suffered traumatizing scarring incident when they were younger that destroyed their illusions and embittered them, Lannister lackeys, saved Sansa's life, etc. etc. Sansa doesn't need a "triumphant moment" where she sees what kind of person LF is, just as she doesn't need a "triumphant moment" where she sees that Sandor was an abusive piece of shit towards her. She knows very well what kind of person Littlefinger is, as does GRRM.

Again, I think there seems to be a confusion of the desired outcome--Sansa breaking free of LF's manipulations, turning her back on LF and triumphantly severing their abusive bond--with what's actually going on in the books and show: Sansa, albeit in coercive circumstances, seeing a side of LF no one else sees, a side GRRM acknowledges exists, and becoming increasingly sympathetic and admiring towards him, as well as coming to view the two of them as a team (which happened in Season 5 and again in Season 6, where Sansa was perfectly happy to pal around with LF despite knowing full well how dangerous he was). Like with Dany/Drogo, Sandor/Sansa, the what is the only thing that matters, not the why. The perfect Lifetime movie moment of Sansa Breaking Free of LF and telling him to fuck off once and for all is a fannish fantasy completely at odds with the story GRRM is writing, which is why when that fantasy moment seemingly came when Sansa broke with LF in Season 6, only a few short episodes later Sansa was crawling back to him, chatting with him about her childhood while fondly needling LF about his self-serving tendencies, and admitting that his vision of her on the Iron Throne was a "pretty picture." The writing's on the wall. A Lifetime movie this ain't.

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Mentally breaking with Littlefinger is not the endpoint of the arc, it's just a major turning point

That assumes that she will break with LF at some point, in the sense of a definitive final rupture. Given the tack the show has taken, that's really not a safe assumption to make. That's what everyone wants to happen, sure...but when has GRRM ever cared about what people want to happen? If Sansa when free of LF's physical control in the Vale will act the exact same way in the show--allied with LF with LF still having a powerful mental bond with her--as she will in the books when freed from the Vale, which we can assume she will following the broad plot outline of the show, then that isolation, manipulation, etc. is irrelevant to her feelings and actions from that point.

The show's direction points to a continued alliance between Sansa and LF that is important for plot purposes. If that alliance falls apart, which I doubt, it won't be because Sandor forcefully disillusions her about LF. The show has also dropped a few broad hints about Sansa having tension with Jon. I'm not entirely convinced the positioning of "Sansa" as the villain in Arya's little Lady Crane plot wasn't some sort of hint about Sansa in Season 7 ("Watch out for that one," hmm), either. However Sansa's relationship with LF plays out, I doubt it will culminate in a moment where Sansa chews out LF and kicks him out of her life. The show already went there in Season 6 and almost immediately (and tellingly, in my opinion) walked it back. They won't do the same thing twice.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Eyes High

[anamika]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

 I haven't said otherwise.  But Sansa's increasingly positive view of Littlefinger is the result of her playing down how dangerous he is and how uncomfortable he makes her, which is pretty much the same thing she did with Joffrey; hence, it's a recurring motif in her arc.  She eventually saw the full truth of Joffrey, and it's not exactly a leap that the same will be true of Littlefinger in time (and what she sees of him now is not the full truth). 

But is not the character supposed to show some growth? I mean, fans of the character talk about how Sansa has learned so much since the end of book one and how she has grown as a player and all that. We have Arya stealthily assassinating people and mastering languages, Bran warging humans, Dany ruling, Jon playing the game up North and Sansa is doing pretty much the same thing she did with Joffrey way back in book one?

And let's recall that she only realized the truth about Joffrey after Ned lost his head, Arya went missing and Jeyne Poole was given to LF (All partly due to Sansa's treachery in the books). And unlike Arya feeling guilt and remorse about Mycah or assassinating people, Sansa herself never retrospects on her own role in that whole affair or the fact that Cersei hands over Jeyne Poole to LF right in front of her. She does not need the Hound to tell her these things. She knows.

If something similar to what happened with Joffrey happens with LF then I think something more drastic, than the cheesy scenario of the Hound bursting into the scene and confessing all, should happen. After all Ned had to die before Sansa 'woke up' at the end of book one.  Maybe Sansa's collusion with LF will lead to SR's death. She is already forcing the Maester to give SR dangerous levels of sweetsleep because it benefits their plans. Maybe his death will make her realize that LF is a 'bad guy'. It does seem stupid that it would require SR's death for Sansa to see the 'truth', but Sansa still saw Joffrey as her sweet prince after he mutilated a poor butcher boy with his sword and tried to kill Arya.

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Mentally breaking with Littlefinger is not the endpoint of the arc, it's just a major turning point (and one that all of Baelish's psychological conditioning is meant to be prevent -- he's playing at cross-purposes).  The issue of what she does from there is where she'd bring her new skills to bear, free of Baelish's control.

I have trouble seeing her defeat of LF as just a turning point in her story considering we are into book five and she is still playing down LF. The other young characters have learned and have moved on to the next stage in their story and Sansa is still unable to connect SR's slow poisoning to LF's plan for Harry the Heir at the start of book 6. Even though LF clearly outlines his plans to her. How in the world would this person be able to take down LF?!

When and how is she going to use her new skills, whatever they maybe, after she gets rid of LF? We now know that Dany will be the younger queen who takes down Cersei, so Sansa is not going to be involved with that story. I doubt Aegon is going to stick around for long after Dany lands in Westeros. The show is doing a Sansa/LF Vs Jon next season, so it stands to reason that with Robb's will coming into play and LF having grand plans for Sansa/Winterfell, we will get some version of this in the books as well. I don't see the Hound's confession about Ned having any effect on Sansa Vs Jon in the books, if that's what happens.

The Hound is hardly the good guy here as well considering that he slaughtered Stark men including Jeyne Poole's father, murdered Mycah and was part of the cabal that held Sansa captive. If Sansa/LF is Stockholm syndrome then so is Sansa/Hound. If LF is a paedophile then so is the Hound. What right does the Hound have to point fingers at LF? And if Sansa gets free of LF and goes off with the Hound, how is that any different? At least LF is more useful to her than the Hound.

And finally what are the consequences of her choosing, again and again, the wrong side? She choose the Lannisters over her family and they suffered for it.  If she chooses LF over SR and he ends up dying, what would be the consequences for that? Sansa herself is inherently selfish. That has never changed , right from book one. Will we see her retrospect over her own role in what happened to Ned, Arya and Jeyne?  I just don't see her surviving the series or playing any great game. For one, there is not enough time for her to do that despite the rather jarring, flirty version of Sansa we got in TWOW's sample chapter. For two, I think LF is Sansa's endgame and if he dies, she goes down with him.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

The show already went there in Season 6 and almost immediately (and tellingly, in my opinion) walked it back. They won't do the same thing twice.

"The same thing" in this instance would be having her swear him off and then go back to him for help again, not a final resolution.

That Littlefinger may have a paternal feeling toward Sansa at some points doesn't mean that paternal feeling is meant to be "good", seeing as that still involves hijacking the child of two people whose deaths he brought about.  And he is unmistakably grooming her, as a pedophile does.  I have a hard time seeing how you think that doesn't matter; GRRM is not amoral.  Human relationships in his world are undeniably meant to be complicated, but the I really don't see how you can view Sansa's current manipulation-enforced view of Littlefinger as her understanding who he truly is.  The fact that this has all been brought about via coercion is very relevant, because Sansa's struggle against what other people want to make of her has been another running theme in her arc.  Sansa's assertion of her Stark identity is another such theme, which is rather obviously counterposed with Baelish's attempts to remake her as his "daughter"/fantasy Catelyn, rather than, as she repeatedly thinks of herself, as "the blood of Winterfell" (the same sort of identity themes found in the other kids' stories, and most obviously paralleled with Arya's).

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If Sansa when free of LF's physical control in the Vale will act the exact same way in the show--allied with LF with LF still having a powerful mental bond with her--as she will in the books when freed from the Vale, which we can assume she will following the broad plot outline of the show, then that isolation, manipulation, etc. is irrelevant to her feelings and actions from that point.

I don't think that follows in the slightest.

36 minutes ago, anamika said:

But is not the character supposed to show some growth? I mean, fans of the character talk about how Sansa has learned so much since the end of book one and how she has grown as a player and all that. We have Arya stealthily assassinating people and mastering languages, Bran warging humans, Dany ruling, Jon playing the game up North and Sansa is doing pretty much the same thing she did with Joffrey way back in book one?

She has shown rather a lot of growth, particularly in skill.  Mentally, her circumstances are very different, despite the parallels -- her current status is far more a case of survival instinct than in AGOT, which was fantasy.

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If something similar to what happened with Joffrey happens with LF then I think something more drastic, than the cheesy scenario of the Hound bursting into the scene and confessing all, should happen. After all Ned had to die before Sansa 'woke up' at the end of book one.  Maybe Sansa's collusion with LF will lead to SR's death. She is already forcing the Maester to give SR dangerous levels of sweetsleep because it benefits their plans. 

It's entirely possible that Robert will die (the poor kid certainly feels doomed, unless there's a dramatic subversion coming), though in the show that's obviously not happening.

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When and how is she going to use her new skills, whatever they maybe, after she gets rid of LF? 

My point was not that getting rid of LF is a speedbump in her story, quite the opposite:  that making a mental break with Littlefinger still leaves, well, Littlefinger in place to be dealt with.  If Sansa in the books right at this moment stopped mentally walling off all her fears and reservations about him and the creepy "daughter" act, she'd still be isolated and in his power, without any obvious allies.

EDIT:  I've said my piece on this point (this is a very old argument, after all), so I'll leave it at that.

Unrelatedly, more WOTW info from Spain suggests there's going to be a big battle setpiece involving the Dothraki and the Unsullied.

I do wonder how they're going to stage these battles and what role, if any, the dragons will play.  Maybe they'll just be elsewhere for dramatic purposes.  Even in the books, I've found that GRRM seems to try to stretch tactics to allow for more fighting to take place than you would think would be necessary when one side has dragons (e.g., the Field of Fire, where Aegon for some reason allowed for a conventional battle to go on for a bit before unleashing all the dragons, when you think he'd just do that immediately).

Edited September 14, 2016 by SeanC

[Eyes High]

42 minutes ago, SeanC said:

EDIT:  I've said my piece on this point (this is a very old argument, after all), so I'll leave it at that.

It's getting a bit far from the original argument (whether or not Sandor will disillusion Sansa with the tidbit about Petyr and Ned and the dagger). It's frustrating to see popular but illogical theories stated as if they're a sure thing, but the Sandor/Sansa/dagger fan theory isn't the only theory to which that statement applies, and that problem is not strictly speaking a Season 7 issue at any rate. If this thread were dedicated to dismantling the logical failings of all the popular but illogical ASOIAF fan theories, we'd be here all year.

I will say this, though:

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For two, I think LF is Sansa's endgame and if he dies, she goes down with him.

Precisely.

Topic:

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Unrelatedly, more WOTW info from Spain suggests there's going to be a big battle setpiece involving the Dothraki and the Unsullied.

Cool. WOTW reported on a Greyjoy vs. Greyjoy sea battle on September 8th being filmed in the studio sets. Different battle? Different component of some mega-battle with land and sea battles simultaneously? We shall see.

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 Maybe they'll just be elsewhere for dramatic purposes.

I guess it depends on how much of their budget D&D want to blow on dragons. There were four (?) scenes with dragons in Season 6 (Tyrion freeing the dragons, Dany naming her bloodriders, the Meereen battle, and the final trip to Westeros).

[Happy Harpy]

17 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Well, well, welly, well, folks, WotW is now reporting that a certain Joseph Dempsie has been spotted in a Belfast airport.

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES!

*ahem* I mean, excellent news. Now please don't kill him.

[Wouter]

Regarding Sansa and LF: let's not forget that in the books, it has been more or less implied that LF was the one who convinced Joffrey to have Ned executed ("a strong king kills his enemies"). Tyrion seems to suspect or know this. Bran may see it in a vision. There are ways to get this info to Sansa, and that would make a huge difference.

Also, LF is the one who sent her friend Jeyne Poole to Ramsay, after she was "prepared" beforehand. Another thing she could find out.

Purely going by the books, Sansa turning on LF eventually - once she finds out some things about him that the book character doesn't know yet (even if she has a pretty good read on LF, mentally) - seems like almost a foregone conclusion.

And since the show often uses the conclusion of a book storyline even when it doesn't really seems to be the logical outcome of a show-only plotline (see Jon getting crowned King despite not being a very good battle commander), it could well be they will have a show-equivalent. The trigger may be different, the means to present it to her may be different, but turning on LF is still the outcome I expect.

I also think its possible that Sansa, possibly with LF, may be sent down south to treat with queen Daenerys at some point (asking for her help against the WW).  That could turn it into a three way confrontation between Tyrion, LF and Sansa (or four-way, if Varys joins too).

[SimoneS]

I don't get this debate about Sansa and Littlefinger. I don't see any connection of their fates. Like Cersei, Littlefinger is a dead man walking, period. Littlefinger's delusion about sitting on the Iron Throne is just that, a delusion of a power hungry obsessed man. In contrast, Sansa has found her brother and her other siblings are close to reuniting. Even if you can believe that she would turn on Jon, in what world would she turn on Bran and Arya too? I think that it is far more likely that Sansa will try use Littlefinger's obsession with her and it backfires on her.

[paigow]

5 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES!

*ahem* I mean, excellent news. Now please don't kill him.

Pod gets killed and Gendry ends up being the new gondolier for Brienne????

[OhOkayWhat]

11 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Sure, Sansa should care about the damage Petyr has caused, but the only.....

 

1) I will focus on this first line of the paragraph because I wanted to add this idea: Certainly she should, and she does not yet. The characters evolve, Sansa is evolving. I think it is possible a change about that issue too.

2) To clarify: I think Sandor knows about Petyr betrayal, but I do not think it will be used to reveal it to Sansa. In fact, I think the opposite. I will explain myself:

a) I think there are elements in the plot that strongly suggest Sandor knows it.
b) I think the show writers think the same
c) I think the show writers want Sansa discover it herself.
d) Therefore (a+b+c) the writers will not allow Sandor to be there until Sansa realized it herself.

3) The ideas GRRM is comfortable developing within the books are part of the books, it does not mean it is certain that they will be part of the show. The show is the show, the books are the books, Show-Sansa (and every single character of the show) are different beings from an alternate universe than Book-Sansa.

Edited September 15, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[screamin]

10 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Petyr: He isn't "actually good," but he isn't 100% bad, either. GRRM has said that no character of his is 100% bad, and moreover has compared Littlefinger to Gatsby. The side of him that Sansa sees is indeed good, as acknowledged by GRRM.

Okay, so which one was it who pressing his hand to Sansa's breast, asked her if she could she could believe in her heart that he was her father at all times? Which of them demands she express her fatherly affection with kisses on the mouth? "Good" Petyr or "bad" Littlefinger?

Yes, GRRM did not write Baelish as a two dimensional cardboard monster with no human traits. But it does not follow that he sees LF the way Sansa sees LF. To me it's pretty clear he's presenting Sansa's viewpoint as that of a powerless girl in the hands of a murderer, who is complying with his demands that she treat him publically with sincere-seeming wholehearted affection at all times the only way she can - by focusing on and exaggerating his positive traits in her mind and doing her best not to think about the horrible things he's done unless it's absolutely unavoidable - and this includes doing her best not to be conscious of some pretty obvious conclusions that can easily be drawn from Baelish's current behavior.

Like, for one, that the man Sansa tries her best to think of as "Father" most of the time is probably going to escalate to raping her sooner or later (a possibility she steadfastly refuses to think about). Or, that he obviously wants to kill Sweetrobin and (my personal favorite possibility) that at some point fairly soon he is going to demand that SANSA be the one to put Sweetrobin to death - which would be in keeping with both his penchant for keeping "clean hands" for his murders and his desire to cement Sansa at his side in a complicity she can never escape.

I don't think the fact that GRRM may write Sansa as finally rebelling against Baelish at that juncture, or finally submitting for once and for all to his worse machinations means that GRRM 'doesn't care' either way about the morality of the situation. It's obvious that his understanding of the morality of the situation imparts the power to his writing - regardless of whether he writes his protagonist as ultimately triumphant or defeated.

Edited September 15, 2016 by screamin

[Eyes High]

WOTW reports more casting for GOT, this time for Seville and Almodovar del Rio. As before, they're looking for guys of all races, preferably thin and with military experience (1,500 of them, apparently). Extras will be asked to make themselves available for filming between November 1 and 12. No women sought this time, though, unlike the Malpartida extras casting call, which was seeking 600 women as well as 2,400 men.

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Yes, GRRM did not write Baelish as a two dimensional cardboard monster with no human traits. But it does not follow that he sees LF the way Sansa sees LF.

Sure it does. He compared LF to Gatsby, for crying out loud. If that doesn't tell you something about GRRM's view of LF's nature, I don't know what to tell you.

More generally, focusing only on LF's horrible, manipulative treatment of Sansa at the expense of everything else going on gets the reader precisely nowhere in the analysis of Sansa's arc or an analysis of her character development. Yes, he's terrible and treated her badly, and Sansa's positive feelings about him arose in an abusive situation. So what? Most relationships in ASOIAF, even the "healthier" ones, are abusive, including ones that GRRM has indicated he views in a positive light (SanSan, Dany/Drogo). That the relationship is abusive and arose through LF being horrible and manipulative and grooming and abusive and so on doesn't change how she feels about him, or that she sees a side of him which GRRM has acknowledged he possesses. The myopic focus on how dirtybadwrong LF because he kissed/fondled/manipulated/wronged/coerced/threatened Sansa, how he is the scum of the earth, how dare he place his filthy paws on Sansa and force her to cooperate with him by threatening her with more murders, who does that creepy abusive pedophile think he is anyway, he'll probably rape her soon and force her to murder Sweetrobin with her own hands, etc. etc. is not only irrelevant, it's also useless. Moralizing is not analysis. In this series, where a sizeable chunk of the POVs are rapists/abusers or rape/abuse victims who fell in love with their rapists/abusers, moralizing is the opposite of analysis. The "big three" POVs are a rapist and two rape victims who fell in love with their rapists, the latter two of which had romances were presented in a positive light (and one of which involved the rape of a 13-year-old). I don't know what series you're reading where GRRM is taking exquisite care to avoid any hint of endorsing or romanticizing abusive behaviour and to ensure that we view abusers as nothing but unmitigated, irredeemable villains, because it ain't ASOIAF.

Moreover, approaching ASOIAF by attempting to analyze the characters' arcs by imposing moral judgments on these characters as a predictive or analytical tool is particularly bizarre in a text authored by writer who considers a relationship in that same text to be a "great love story" despite it involving a rape survivor falling in love with her rapist and abuser. Dany came to love Drogo as nothing more than a survival mechanism and fell in love with Drogo at a time when she was completely under his thumb and had been raped repeatedly by him; at no point, however, is her love for Drogo invalidated in the series, and Dany never comes to believe that her love for Drogo and view of his positive traits are invalidated because of the undeniably abusive circumstances under which they arose. Her love for him and fond memories are what matters for her arc, not his abuse or the fact that she came to love him while she was his prisoner. GRRM is not entirely amoral, but let's just say that he doesn't share his readers' sensibilities when it comes to "problematic" material. GRRM doesn't care about readers' delicate feelings of propriety about...anything, really, much less Littlefinger. Pretending that GRRM does is a quaint fantasy.

If GRRM isn't wringing his hands and going on about what a creepy, terrible, abusive, manipulative, is-probably-going-to-rape-Sansa-at-the-first-opportunity-and-force-her-to-murder-Sweetrobin-herself piece of shit LF is, it makes no sense for the readers to do so. He's more nuanced than that. He probably expects the same of his readers.

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Like, for one, that the man Sansa tries her best to think of as "Father" most of the time is probably going to escalate to raping her sooner or later

Littlefinger doesn't want to rape Sansa; he could have raped her ages ago, especially since she's still under his thumb in the books. He wants to seduce her, to charm her, to win her over. It is pretty funny how certain sections of the fandom keep insisting LF will try to rape Sansa, only to be proven wrong, though. "He will try to rape her in the godswood in 6x10!!!!" LOL, no.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Eyes High

[anamika]

9 hours ago, Wouter said:

Regarding Sansa and LF: let's not forget that in the books, it has been more or less implied that LF was the one who convinced Joffrey to have Ned executed ("a strong king kills his enemies"). Tyrion seems to suspect or know this. Bran may see it in a vision. There are ways to get this info to Sansa, and that would make a huge difference.

Also, LF is the one who sent her friend Jeyne Poole to Ramsay, after she was "prepared" beforehand. Another thing she could find out.

Do these things really matter at the end of the day? Sansa is dreaming of exchanging kisses with the Hound and he played a part in what happened to her family in KL. His actions also helped imprison Ned. Like I mentioned earlier, Sandor killed her friend's father and several other Stark men. He was her guard, making sure she did not escape. He ran down and killed a child, Arya's friend Mycah. He kidnaps Arya for ransom. He physically and verbally assaults Sansa herself.  Just because he handed down a few tidbits of kindness to Sansa while she was a captive, that somehow makes him a better man as opposed to LF?

As for Jeyne Poole, it was not just LF who sends her over to Ramsay. It was the Lannisters who wanted to hold the North with Arya. Let's remember this gem from Jaime at the end of ASoS:

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A groom led a fine grey mare out the stable door. On her back was mounted a skinny hollow-eyed girl wrapped in a heavy cloak. The girl’s long brown hair blew wild in the wind. She had a pretty face, he thought, but her eyes were sad and wary.

When she saw him, she inclined her head. “Ser Jaime,” she said in a thin anxious voice. “You are kind to see me off.”

Jaime studied her closely. “You know me, then?”

She bit her lip. “You may not recall, my lord, as I was littler then . . . but I had the honor to meet you at Winterfell when King Robert came to visit my father Lord Eddard.” She lowered her big brown eyes and mumbled, “I’m Arya Stark.”

Jaime had never paid much attention to Arya Stark, but it seemed to him that this girl was older. “I understand you’re to be married.”

“I am to wed Lord Bolton’s son, Ramsay. He used to be a Snow, but His Grace has made him a Bolton. They say he’s very brave. I am so happy.”

Then why do you sound so frightened? “I wish you joy, my lady.” Jaime turned back to Steelshanks. “You have the coin you were promised?” “Aye, and we’ve shared it out.You have my thanks.” The northman grinned. “A Lannister always pays his debts.”

“Always,” said Jaime, with a last glance at the girl.  “Good speed,” he told Steelshanks. Nage raised his peace banner, and the northmen formed a column as ragged as their fur cloaks and trotted out the castle gate. The thin girl on the grey mare looked small and forlorn in their midst.

He then warns Brienne not to try to rescue Jeyne poole as she is not Arya. So Jaime basically shrugs off the fact that this small, frightened, forlorn girl (His own description of Jeyne Poole) is being send off by his family to be raped by Ramsey Bolton. This is the great Jaime Lannister on his redemption arc, not bothered one bit about what happens to this poor girl.

As for Sansa herself. She knows who had Jeyne Poole last - LF. She was right there when Cersei hands Jeyne over to LF.

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“Ser Boros, escort this girl (Jeyne) to Lord Petyr’s apartments and instruct his people to keep her there until he comes for her. Tell her that Littlefinger will be taking her to see her father, that ought to calm her down. I want her gone before Sansa returns to her chamber.”

“As you command, Your Grace,” Ser Boros said. He bowed deeply, spun on his heel, and took his leave, his long white cloak stirring the air behind him.

Sansa was confused. “I don’t understand,” she said. “Where is Jeyne’s father? Why can’t Ser Boros take her to him instead of Lord Petyr having to do it?”

All Sansa needs to do is ask LF about what happened to Jeyne. And what is Sansa going to do when she knows that it was the Hound who was involved in the slaughter of Stark men including Jeyne's father? Sansa getting angry at people for what they did to Ned and Jeyne gets tricky because pretty much all the people she currently likes are involved in these things one way or another.

And this is what baffles me about all the claims that Sansa is growing and learning skills to become a player - her utter and total lack of introspection. And she has been doing it from the very beginning when she keeps blaming Arya for what happened to Lady. Then she totally forgets about Arya. She forgets that Jon exists. She betrays her own family for Joffrey. She trusts Cersei, the lady who orders her pet killed. Instead of trusting Tyrion, she trusts Dontos and the Tyrells. Instead of trusting the Vale Lords, she trusts LF. When the Hound offers her safe passage she refuses (For good reasons) and then later imagines kissing him. She overhears Lysa confessing all (LF poisoning Jon Arryn etc.) and never thinks about any of that. She wonders whatever happens to Jeyne Poole and never thinks of asking LF about her. On the show she distrusts people like Brienne, Davos and Jon in favor of LF. LF tells her that SR will die and she marry Harry the Heir and she is stupidly hoping that SR will be fine. The list goes on. Where is this growth in skill?

A player of the game should also be a master of information ( Hence Varys' little birds) and be able to move the chess pieces ably. Sansa's  ability to completely ignore or block out the truth in favor of what she wants to believe to be the truth and her inability to connect the dots and see what's right in front of her face makes her totally unfit to be any kind of player. I just cannot see how she is going to bring down LF. I don't see how any information about Ned or Jeyne is going to change her mind about things. She will probably ignore all that and continue as usual till someone puts an end to her miserable existence.

Edited September 15, 2016 by anamika

[Happy Harpy]

11 hours ago, paigow said:

Pod gets killed and Gendry ends up being the new gondolier for Brienne????

He certainly has more boating experience than Pod, LOL.

I would love it if a motley crew composed Arya, Gendry, Brienne, The Hound, Jaime and Bronn found themselves escorting Sam up North to help Team Stark and/or Team Targ fight the WW. Let me believe in badass fairytales, snark and chicken galore for a second.

11 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I don't get this debate about Sansa and Littlefinger. I don't see any connection of their fates. Like Cersei, Littlefinger is a dead man walking, period. Littlefinger's delusion about sitting on the Iron Throne is just that, a delusion of a power hungry obsessed man. In contrast, Sansa has found her brother and her other siblings are close to reuniting. Even if you can believe that she would turn on Jon, in what world would she turn on Bran and Arya too? I think that it is far more likely that Sansa will try use Littlefinger's obsession with her and it backfires on her.

I don't disagree, except that she actually did turn on Arya both in AGOT and S1, so it's Book! and Show!Sansa. She chose what she wanted and what was in her best interest (or so she thought) over her blood, the truth, and justice. Is she still the same person? I do not know. I pitied her when she was prisonner, I applauded her when she got the guts to escape but considering her attitude afterwards I still can't be certain she's trustworthy.  Maybe her storyline's point is to show that she learned what loyalty is. But maybe it's to show that tigers don't change their stripes.

In the season finale, my personal impression: she showed a bit of dismay when Lyanna Mormont named Jon as the Stark heir but she looked worried for him at first when she saw Littlecreeper's face.  So imo she could go either way...

Which is what I really love about this season, the sky's the limit for about any character or storyline.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Happy Harpy

[Lady S.]

18 hours ago, SeanC said:

Unrelatedly, more WOTW info from Spain suggests there's going to be a big battle setpiece involving the Dothraki and the Unsullied.

I do wonder how they're going to stage these battles and what role, if any, the dragons will play.  Maybe they'll just be elsewhere for dramatic purposes.  Even in the books, I've found that GRRM seems to try to stretch tactics to allow for more fighting to take place than you would think would be necessary when one side has dragons (e.g., the Field of Fire, where Aegon for some reason allowed for a conventional battle to go on for a bit before unleashing all the dragons, when you think he'd just do that immediately).

Apparently the original article at L7R says they're going to be filming in that location for a month, which is about how look it took to shoot Snowbowl. So maybe it could indeed be a big land and sea battle. (L7R proved wrong about several things in s6, I think it's still a reliable source for shooting dates and the like.)

Edited September 15, 2016 by Lady S.