Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[GrailKing]

Got something else :  http://watchersonthewall.com/promo-roundup-game-thrones-san-francisco-sdcc-reddit/

 

Have to scroll up to the baseball vid.

Edited June 23, 2017 by GrailKing

[Wouter]

21 hours ago, Eyes High said:

She wouldn't be as agitated about Cersei if she weren't terrified of her, and rightly so: we were reminded twice in Season 6 that Cersei wants Sansa dead, which seems ominously significant. It could be setup for conflict, or it could be a setup for something else.

GRRM supposedly said in reaction to Sansa's altered TV storyline that he has no idea where D&D are going with it. He was allegedly very displeased that they eliminated Jeyne Poole. I agree that it's possible that she never goes north in the books and remains in the Vale, although by that logic she would have to go back to the Vale at some point in the show to get back "on track" with her book arc and set up her book endgame (whatever it is).

It seems that in Season 7 Tyrion is torn between his desire to help Dany and his desire to keep Jaime alive.

About Tyrion: some of his chapters in ADWD expressed this too, there was the infamous line where he admitted to missing Jaime (and some other people ... that's the infamous part as it is open to interpretation) and there was his dream about him having two heads, one weeping and one laughing as he cut down Jaime.

About Sansa: I think D&D simply moved most of her Vale storyline to the North. The culmination of her Vale story in the books is likely to be her finally turning on LF; that will happen in Winterfell in the show, but in the books this can happen in the Vale. Bran can communicate over vast distances using his treenet(tm) abilities, and I have imagined for years that Sansa may finally get the truth through dream-imagery (or more direct communication) sent by Bran.

Arya will apparently not meet Jon in Winterfell this season, but she will interact with LF and Sansa. My conclusion: this would be entirely in line with a book version where Sansa stays in the Vale and Arya meets het there. After a confrontation (GRRM has said they need to work out some issues; we will see a version of this in S7 of the show) and after Bran's info they may turn on LF together. Just like in the show, the Stark siblings turn on LF together (very fitting). Conveniently for Sansa, Arya's superassassin abilities allow her to keep her hands clean and depending on the fallout and the status of her identity, she may even play the grieving daughter or at least the grieving protégée in public...

The only two figures of note from the Vale that remain in play at this point are Yohn Royce and Sweetrobin. The lack of a Harry the Heir equivalent may indicate that Sweetrobin will, against the odds, be the survivor and Sansa may be able to ally with Yohn and manipulate/steer/advise Sweetrobyn to help the Starks. End result: same as in the show, only they never come into contact with the Boltons (guess Stannis does that and maybe Jon finishes them off).

 

One particular leak from lads1 and lads2 remains uncertain: why does Brienne go to the dragon pit? The first version said that Sansa sent her because she essentially doesn't trust Jon - would be weird. The later version, IIRC, said that Sansa was summoned to swear fealty but she sent Brienne in her stead, presumably because she doesn't want to come near KL and/or because she doesn't want to put herself at Dany's mercy.

Both seem to contradict other movements in S7. On the one hand that is Sansa genuinely working with Bran and Arya and seemingly accepting Jon's authority, at least after he leaves her in charg (so why the mistrust, Arya wouldn't like it and wise Bran would probably know better too), on the other hand I don't see why Dany wouldn't consider it sufficient that the King in the North knelt to her. It would be like she wouldn't consider Jon to be fully in charge of the north because he is only half-Stark, and she wants the apparent direct heir of Ned to confirm the North's fealty.

 

19 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

Have you forgotten that Sansa trusted her servant Shae and befriended her? I think Sansa was naive not stupid. She was raised in a loving home and ended up surrounded by people who wanted to use and abuse her.

IMO Sansa seemed to be aware of her maids in KL (in the books, too) and in her book chapters in the Vale it seems that she is able to interact in a pretty normal fashion with non-nobles. She takes somewhat of an interest in Mya, she is at least aware of the maids and helpers, lowly hedge knights like The Mad Mouse are treated courteously and she doesn't feel too high to pour drinks for the high lords and ladies herself (something that would normally be done by maids, I suppose - but the position was interesting to observe and learn, beyond LF wanting to show her).

Sansa is no Arya, but for a de-facto feudal princess (given that Starks are kings in everything but name) in a very status-aware society she isn't especially snooty, post-AGOT. There is a marked difference between her and Cersei, on this front.
 

Edited June 23, 2017 by Wouter

[Eyes High]

22 minutes ago, Wouter said:

About Sansa: I think D&D simply moved most of her Vale storyline to the North. The culmination of her Vale story in the books is likely to be her finally turning on LF; that will happen in Winterfell in the show, but in the books this can happen in the Vale. Bran can communicate over vast distances using his treenet(tm) abilities, and I have imagined for years that Sansa may finally get the truth through dream-imagery (or more direct communication) sent by Bran.

Ultimately, Sansa's TV plot and Sansa's book plot will have to converge at some point to give her the same endgame. The key question is whether that convergence has already happened (meaning Sansa takes the Vale armies north and gets involved with the fight for Winterfell and the North in the books) or has yet to occur (meaning Sansa and Arya's storyline with LF is still completely off-book).

 

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One particular leak from lads1 and lads2 remains uncertain: why does Brienne go to the dragon pit? The first version said that Sansa sent her because she essentially doesn't trust Jon - would be weird. The later version, IIRC, said that Sansa was summoned to swear fealty but she sent Brienne in her stead, presumably because she doesn't want to come near KL and/or because she doesn't want to put herself at Dany's mercy.

Both seem to contradict other movements in S7. On the one hand that is Sansa genuinely working with Bran and Arya and seemingly accepting Jon's authority, at least after he leaves her in charg (so why the mistrust, Arya wouldn't like it and wise Bran would probably know better too), on the other hand I don't see why Dany wouldn't consider it sufficient that the King in the North knelt to her. It would be like she wouldn't consider Jon to be fully in charge of the north because he is only half-Stark, and she wants the apparent direct heir of Ned to confirm the North's fealty.

 

Good point. Why would Sansa be summoned as Lads2 indicates she is if Jon is already there as the KITN to represent the North's interests?

Lads1's explanation--Sansa sends Brienne south to represent the North's interests (in case Jon fucks up, I guess)--makes the most sense of the two competing explanations. I guess we'll see.

[nikma]

18 hours ago, Eyes High said:

At one of the cons. I don't know when, although I assume it was after Season 5 aired.

No. That never happened. 

[anamika]

10 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Ultimately, Sansa's TV plot and Sansa's book plot will have to converge at some point to give her the same endgame.

That's if the show runners know what Sansa's book endgame is. I stand by my opinion that when the show runners and GRRM had their discussion way back about the entire story and characters, GRRM had still not decided on what her ending was going to be. The only similarity between the book and show version will be that Sansa will be LF's undoing and take him down.

There's this German interview from 2016 with Tom Wlaschiha (plays Jaqen H'Ghar) and at around the 14.00 mark they ask him about the ending of the show.  He tells them that the show runners have artistic authority and autonomy and get feedback from GRRM. He then says  "They know where the five absolute main characters journeys should end. But besides that they are free in their approach to create content. The 6th and 7th books will be totally different to the next two seasons."

Now we know who these 5 main characters are for GRRM based on his earlier comments and the outline. I doubt that's changed. I think the journeys will be completely different. The endings same - possibly death, king, queen, three-eyed raven, globe trotting assassin, warden of North etc.

As mentioned earlier we also have Bryan Cogman's commentary on the season 6 DVD where it's mentioned that the show runners where not clear on what GRRM was going to do with the Hound as late as 2016. The Hound is an important character in Sansa's narrative and if GRRM is not sure how his story goes forward, then Sansa's ending is still fluid.

 Which is why they decided to combine plots, replace Jeyne with Sansa, put her in the more interesting Winterfell location and have the Sansa Vs LF plot take place there. I am guessing Sansa's only contributions in the books is killing arch nemesis LF and get the support of the Vale and that's basically over with on the show by next season. It's possible that we get some Sansa/LF Vs Jon/Rickon rivalry in the books. Maybe Arya turns up at the Vale to take care of that for Jon and that's what we are getting next season.

Now Sansa is definitely not going North with the Vale in the books. The weather conditions that GRRM has set in the North makes this impossible. There are much higher chances of Sansa going south to clash with Cersei on the show. What else is she going to do in season 8? With LF gone, she has no story left. Unless the Hound makes his way to Winterfell (He is after all in the North) and season 8 is about their romance. We don't know much about the Winterfell plot. Like what's Sansa doing in between fighting with Arya and taking advice from LF? He talks about fighting in the south - maybe Sansa tries to engage the Northern Lords against Cersei? Or maybe Sansa-Arya talk about the Hound?

Ultimately I think Sansa's book ending and show ending will be different. The writers have been taking liberties with her for a while now. Maybe GRRM has no idea where D and D are going with Sansa's story because D and D have no idea where GRRM is going with Sansa's story. In fact I think GRRM is now not even sure about his original endings of the five main characters because apparently he regrets putting in some foreshadowing in the early books. The man's writing is a mess and we may end up with different endings for everyone and we may not even know it because the last book is never coming out.

Edited June 24, 2017 by anamika

[Wouter]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

That's if the show runners know what Sansa's book endgame is. I stand by my opinion that when the show runners and GRRM had their discussion way back about the entire story and characters, GRRM had still not decided on what her ending was going to be. The only similarity between the book and show version will be that Sansa will be LF's undoing and take him down.

There's this German interview from 2016 with Tom Wlaschiha (plays Jaqen H'Ghar) and at around the 14.00 mark they ask him about the ending of the show.  He tells them that the show runners have artistic authority and autonomy and get feedback from GRRM. He then says  "They know where the five absolute main characters journeys should end. But besides that they are free in their approach to create content. The 6th and 7th books will be totally different to the next two seasons."

Anamika; it's around 15:00-15:09 and Tom says: "und ich glaube, die [D&D] wissen auch die... [slight pause, seems to think] ... für den fünf absoluten ... [corrects himself] ... fünf/sechs absoluten hauptfiguren wo die reise hingehen soll". Forgive for spelling errors as German is not my forte, but it seems like Tom wasn't sure if there are 5 or 6 main figures.

I'm pretty sure that GRRM knows what will happen to Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Arya, Bran, Sansa and by extension Rickon as well. The Stark children are too central to the series and for the dynastic implications alone, he has to know what will happen to all of them.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Wouter

[anamika]

2 hours ago, Wouter said:

Anamika; it's around 15:00-15:09 and Tom says: "und ich glaube, die [D&D] wissen auch die... [slight pause, seems to think] ... für den fünf absoluten ... [corrects himself] ... fünf/sechs absoluten hauptfiguren wo die reise hingehen soll". Forgive for spelling errors as German is not my forte, but it seems like Tom wasn't sure if there are 5 or 6 main figures.

I'm pretty sure that GRRM knows what will happen to Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Arya, Bran, Sansa and by extension Rickon as well. The Stark children are too central to the series and for the dynastic implications alone, he has to know what will happen to all of them.

I was going by the translations provided below which mentioned five. My opinion stems from the fact that I don't think that Sansa is that central to the series or that GRRM had a clear idea of where she was going to end up a few years back - when he discussed the story with the showrunners.  I mean, the show has pretty much changed her book story - how central can she be if her book story is not worth adapting? She was originally created to have conflict and discontent among the Starks. GRRM obviously increased her role as he did with characters like Cersei, but has mainly used her to give a viewpoint into characters like LF and places like KL.

The show has beefed up her role by giving her plot points that belong to other characters but she is clearly going in a different direction compared to the books considering the show version is pretty much a different character - the only thing they have in common is LF. She is now lady Bolton, has no connections to Tyrion, has no control over the Vale anymore, has a penchant for feeding people to hungry dogs and for some reason is defacto ruler of WF despite Bran being there - I struggle to see how this is in any way where her book character is headed. 

As for the other main characters, I am getting the feeling that if GRRM does one day write the final book, they may end up in different places. The 5 year gap ended up screwing with his story in a big way and he has admitted to regretting putting in some foreshadowing in the earlier books that will now not come true. Sure, he has mentioned that he is not going to change the endings even if fans predict them. The problem is that I think he is stuck and not sure how to get the characters to their original endings. So he may end up changing things. I do think he knows, for now, who ends up on the IT, who ends up at Winterfell etc - but these things were decided on way, way back with his five central characters and where Jaime was the central antagonist. Which is why I think GRRM has several different options on what to do with Sansa - she is not central to the main plot of the books.

Anyways, I think it is futile predicting who will get the same book and show ending, as I am 100% sure that we are not getting the last book. The show's ending for the characters will be their only ending and will be canon.

Edited June 24, 2017 by anamika

[SeanC]

50 minutes ago, anamika said:

My opinion stems from the fact that I don't think that Sansa is that central to the series or that GRRM had a clear idea of where she was going to end up a few years back - when he discussed the story with the showrunners.  I mean, the show has pretty much changed her book story - how central can she be if her book story is not worth adapting? She was originally created to have conflict and discontent among the Starks. GRRM obviously increased her role as he did with characters like Cersei, but has mainly used her to give a viewpoint into characters like LF and places like KL.

I don't think Sansa will ever be as central to the final confrontation as the other five, since they've been seemingly set up to have magic weapons to one degree or another, but I don't think that means GRRM doesn't know her ending.  He'd been writing the books for 20 years by the time he talked to D&D about the resolution, and he's said he had the endings worked out for the top tier of characters among the Starks, Lannisters, etc.

While the show has changed things quite a lot, based on what we've seen I think that's mostly because they felt the broad strokes ("Sansa becomes a player", the basic idea of Sansa bringing down Littlefinger, as we've been told will happen in the leaks) could be done differently in a way they felt facilitated their desire to majorly condense the plot.  In terms of characterization and theme, I agree that at this point Sansa is pretty radically different than I expect the book character to go, but the writers have never been particularly faithful to GRRM's themes or (increasingly) character directions, so she's not unique there.  I think that for the writers they'll consider the ending to be the same if it conforms to things like who rules what, who marries who, etc.

[FemmyV]

What I expected in the books was for LF to marry off Sansa to SW or some other titled Lord, and then marry himself into another property, eventually marry Sansa after a couple of suspicious deaths, then she would kill him and have all the titles and lands, herself. The show has so far given her the title of Lady Bolton, although the significance has yet to be explored, ie, are the Bolton lands producing enough to pay for an army? I have been expecting show Sansa would also wind up with the Vale, one way or another.

As for Arya, I just don't see her as a 'globe-trotting assassin' when all is said and done — everything she has been doing was with the aim of rejoining her wolfpack.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, FemmyV said:

What I expected in the books was for LF to marry off Sansa to SW or some other titled Lord, and then marry himself into another property, eventually marry Sansa after a couple of suspicious deaths, then she would kill him and have all the titles and lands, herself. The show has so far given her the title of Lady Bolton, although the significance has yet to be explored, ie, are the Bolton lands producing enough to pay for an army? I have been expecting show Sansa would also wind up with the Vale, one way or another.

Book LF can't marry Sansa off to anyone as long as Tyrion is alive and Sansa is in hiding.

The show has ruled out Sansa ending up with the Vale, I think. She spent very little time there and has no emotional connection to Robin (TV Sweetrobin), who seemed understandably indifferent to her the last time we saw him. Even if the show kills off Robin in Season 8, there's no reason to believe that Sansa would somehow get the Vale, having no claim to it. 

 

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As for Arya, I just don't see her as a 'globe-trotting assassin' when all is said and done — everything she has been doing was with the aim of rejoining her wolfpack.

I agree and disagree. Arya won't be an assassin once she finishes her list, but once everything is settled at Winterfell and the war is over she may decide to roam around having adventures. She has toyed with that idea in the books before. 

[Raachel2008]

I think Sansa battling Cersei 

On 2017-6-22 at 8:10 PM, nikma said:

Knowing nothing about battles didn't stop her from war against Ramsay. We will see. But in S7 leaks there is a very clear set-up for her conflict with Cersei in S8. She is telling Jon that ignoring Cersei is a huge mistake. And she has no role to play in the war against the WW. And I don't think that she is terrified of Cersei any more. 

I disagree on all accounts, and since I don't want to rewash old arguments about Sansa's role in BoB, I  will say just this: it is wishful thiking from Sansa fans that she will have a big role in Cersei's demise. She won't.  Cersei's death is Jamie's or Tyrion's, or maybe even Arya's  - IF she dies; Cersei could very well end alone,  defeated on all accounts. Sansa already had her  big moment with Ramsay, and will have another with LF.  Nothing in the story so far points to Sansa having any really important role in Cersei's death.  Sansa still fears Cersei because she knows who Cersei is and how much power she has. Sorry, there is no  set-up for a Cersei x Sansa thing. If I had to guess, I would say Sansa's role in season 8 ito protect the North the best she can until Dany and Jon arrive. I'm not fond of the idea of Sansa as QITN, but I can see it. For that to happen, though, she needs to prove herself and earn the tittle, like Jon did. So, yeah, I can see Sansa, with Arya's help, holding Winterfell and her people until the very last moment.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Raachel2008

[WearyTraveler]

6 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Book LF can't marry Sansa off to anyone as long as Tyrion is alive and Sansa is in hiding.

The show has ruled out Sansa ending up with the Vale, I think. She spent very little time there and has no emotional connection to Robin (TV Sweetrobin), who seemed understandably indifferent to her the last time we saw him. Even if the show kills off Robin in Season 8, there's no reason to believe that Sansa would somehow get the Vale, having no claim to it. 

I think there's a chance Sansa could get The Vale in the books.  

All the time spent explaining Harry the Heir is important, I think.  And then we have chapters that Martin has released from TWOW where Sansa is clearly trying to entice Henry.  I think the plan is to have "Alayne" marry Harry, kill SR, and voilá, Sansa controls the Vale through her husband.  As to Alayne's bastard status, LF could request the crown legitimize his daughter as payment for all the favors he has done for the Lannisters, or even as payment for food if/when Euron's attack on the Reach compromises the food supply to KL.  We know that the presence of the bastard or the bastard's father in court is not necessary, as we saw with Ramsay's legitimization decree.

They don't need Sansa's marriage to be annulled, or for her to be a widow, because Alayne is the one getting married, not Sansa.  So, no obstacles there.  In her TWOW chapter, Sansa is trying out several tricks she presumably learned from LF to attract Harry, and is quite stressed out about accomplishing her goal.  She mentions several times how important it is for her to succeed in this pursuit, which leads me to believe LF has already outlined the plan of marrying her to Harry and she has agreed to do it.  As of the published material so far, she may not know LF's ultimate plan is to murder SR and have her be the Lady of the Vale, and when he does this, that might be one of the things that starts Sansa on the path to actually doubting LF or seeing him for the cruel SOB that he really is.

I know many think the Vale army can't get North because of the weather conditions set down by Martin, but, we are all forgetting the many mentions of "the year of the false spring", which was a time in Westerosi history when the winter weather subsided long enough to make people believe that spring was upon them.  Such a thing could happen again, providing the right conditions for the Vale army to move North.  Because the show has already taken Sansa to Winterfell, I'm going to guess that she'll end up there at some point in the books and that she will take The Vale army with her.

From what I can tell from the writing, it seems to me that Martin is setting it up so that Sansa gets better and better at playing the game, so much so, that she will rule The Vale by manipulating Harry like a marionette, which she will learn how to do from LF.  Because of the leaked plot points already confirmed, I also think she's the one that will bring about, directly or indirectly, LF's demise in the books; and I think this will happen in WF (the maid bringing the giant -Titan- down in a castle made of snow).

I never bought into Sansa being the YMBQ (I think that is Daenerys), and I think that she will never go back South.  Just like Arya was not responsible for killing many of the people on her list in the books (only that one guy at the inn, correct?), I think all the pending issues between Sansa and Cersei will be resolved when Cersei dies.  A big reason for me to think this is that the show moved Sansa to WF, had her say that all her life she wanted to leave WF but that she never knew what she left behind, and generally, just had her wanting to be back home for almost the entire series.  As much as she may hate Cersei, and the Lannisters, we know she doesn't leave WF this season, and I doubt she'll do it in the final season, at least not all the way to KL.

I think Cersei's end will come at the hands of the Valonqar.  And I believe that is Jaime, who is still South in both, the books and the show.  It makes more sense to me, given their character arcs in the books.

I could be wrong, off course.  The only support I have for my theories is that I've been right so far in my guesses for the book material, but that's no guarantee.

Edited June 26, 2017 by WearyTraveler

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, WearyTraveler said:

I think there's a chance Sansa could get The Vale in the books.  All the time spent explaining Harry the Heir is important, I think.  And then we have chapters that Martin has released from TWOW where Sansa is clearly trying to entice Henry.  I think the plan is to have "Alayne" marry Harry, kill SR, and voilá, Sansa controls the Vale through her husband.  

That may be the plan, but Sansa isn't marrying anyone anytime soon in the books, and that's by GRRM's explicit design.

 

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They don't need Sansa's marriage to be annulled, or for her to be a widow, because Alayne is the one getting married, not Sansa.  

The plan is to reveal Sansa as a Stark at her wedding. So they need her marriage to go away before she marries. LF said as much (the marriage needs to wait until Sansa is safely widowed), although LF's pinning his hopes on Tyrion's death because he knows that an annulment is a pipe dream with Sansa being a fugitive.

GRRM set up this annulment procedure that makes it impossible for Sansa to obtain an annulment while she's in hiding, and when this was pointed out by a fan, he hinted that that was the whole point. This is why LF isn't even considering an annulment but is instead banking on Tyrion dying. GRRM has no intention of Sansa marrying Harry. I suspect he came up with the Tyrion/Sansa marriage in part or even primarily as a plot device to give Sansa a get-out-of-marriage-free card when she otherwise would have been frogmarched into another unwanted union by now.

Trying to come up with some way that Sansa could still marry Harry despite being married to Tyrion is missing the point, in my opinion. GRRM contrived things precisely so that Sansa can't marry Harry. He's not going to undo all his hard work.

 

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So, no obstacles there.  In her TWOW chapter, Sansa is trying out several tricks she presumably learned from LF to attract Harry, and is quite stressed out about accomplishing her goal.  She mentions several times how important it is for her to succeed in this pursuit, which leads me to believe LF has already outlined the plan of marrying her to Harry and she has agreed to do it.

Well, we know that he has already outlined his plan since he did just that in AFFC, but we don't know whether Sansa ever believes she'll need to marry Harry, since she thinks in her TWOW chapter that she won't be able to marry as long as Tyrion is alive. The Harry marriage can't happen and won't happen, and that's exactly how GRRM planned it. 

 

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Because of the leaked plot points already confirmed, I also think she's the one that will bring about, directly or indirectly, LF's demise in the books; and I think this will happen in WF 

Possibly, but that has nothing to do with whether she'll ever get the Vale. The show dispensed with Sansa's Vale arc post-ASOS and with her emotional connection to Sweetrobin, suggesting that the Vale is unimportant to Sansa's endgame in the show and by extension the books.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Eyes High

[WearyTraveler]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

The Harry marriage can't happen and won't happen, and that's exactly how GRRM planned it. 

Perhaps the plan is not for Sansa to marry Harry, but for Alayne to do so.  That way, she can gain temporary control (which LF thinks is still his control).  Later on, after the need for her to control The Vale has passed (plot wise, mind you, LF will probably never think the need for control of anything has passed), the author can reveal she's Sansa and her marriage to Harry will not be valid.  The reason I think it's a possibility is because even though LF knows all the issues that would impede a Sansa marriage, he's still insisting on Sansa charming and seducing Harry the Heir, as late as TWOW.  So, he must either think that Tyrion will die soon, that he'll be able to manipulate the crown into declaring Tyrion dead (perhaps he intends to present a better fake dead dwarf than others have), or his plan B is to legitimize Alayne.

The only thing that we know for sure from Martin's comments is that he intends for Sansa to continue to be married to Tyrion for a while, but that doesn't mean that other schemes won't come into play from other characters, particularly, LF.

 

Sansa's endgame might be death, or it might be to inherit Casterly Rock from Tyrion (after her true identity is revealed and she "loses" The Vale), or, if Tyrion survives the saga and ends up in the Iron Throne, as some theorize, to rule the 7 Kingdoms with him, or to rule the North if Jon dies in the WW war or ends up in the Iron Throne and Bran names her heir because he needs to dedicate himself entirely to his Third Eye Crow responsibilities as his predecessor did. 

 

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Possibly, but that has nothing to do with whether she'll ever get the Vale.

Off course not, and I wasn't implying that it did, I was just closing off my theory of Sansa's future given what we know from the show spoilers and the books.

Edited June 26, 2017 by WearyTraveler

[Eyes High]

6 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

Perhaps the plan is not for Sansa to marry Harry, but for Alayne to do so.  That way, she can gain temporary control (which LF thinks is still his control).  

No, the plan is to reveal Sansa as a Stark right before her wedding takes place:

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When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie. Jon Arryn's bannermen will never love me, nor our silly, shaking Robert, but they will love their Young Falcon . . . and when they come together for his wedding, and you come out with your long auburn hair, clad in a maiden's cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back . . . why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. 

The plan falls apart if Sansa isn't already a free woman by that point, which is why LF says that the marriage needs to wait until Sansa is "safely widowed," which we can safely predict is not going to happen within LF's desired timeframe.

 

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Sansa's endgame might be death, or it might be to inherit Casterly Rock from Tyrion (after her true identity is revealed and she "loses" The Vale)

If one of the two dies, it ain't going to be Tyrion. Nor can Sansa inherit Casterly Rock from Tyrion for a number of reasons. 

I expect Sansa will die in both the books and the show and her marital status will become academic.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Eyes High

[Bannon]

On 6/21/2017 at 4:50 PM, SimoneS said:

I cannot wait. Great trailer! This season is going to be great. It cannot come soon enough. I have to sign up for my HBO subscription.

I cannot believe that Jon and Daenerys are finally going to meet. Jon is looking sexy and handsome as ever. Daenerys always the beauty. They are going to make breathtakingly beautiful couple and that they are actually good people makes them even better.

There are so many battles going on so no doubt Daenerys will win some and lose some before she crushes the Lannisters. If Jamie is really riding towards Daenerys after Drogon burns the Lannister troops alive and is downed, I don't get how he survives. There is her other dragon, her vast military before her, and she can use her power to target the fire on the field to burn him to a crisp.

Beric's flaming sword is fucking awesome!

I need a breakdown scene by scene. I can't tell if it is Jon fighting the White Walker and killing him. It must be though.

Well, this is not a show that can be expected to have an internal logic with regard to military tactics. We've previously seen commanders in a battle who aren't bright enough to grasp that if you have a 30-40 foot giant on you side, the giant ought to be carrying a tree trunk about 15 feet long, thus enabling the brute to send a few hundred opposing pikemen flying like ten pins, within about 10 minutes. We've seen a city which saw fit to build a giant freaking pyramid at the edge of a harbor, thus allowing the tactical high ground, over an attacking fleet, but the city never got around to developing weapons to take advantage of the high ground, so when a wooden fleet shows up with catapults hurling incinderary devices, the city dwellers have no means to respond.

 

No, one should not expect these writers to develop a credible story about how organic fighter bombers can be best deployed against the Lannister forces. I'll watch it anyways, of course.

[YaddaYadda]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

The plan falls apart if Sansa isn't already a free woman by that point, which is why LF says that the marriage needs to wait until Sansa is "safely widowed," which we can safely predict is not going to happen within LF's desired timeframe.

I don't think it will matter what LF wants or what his plans are. While it seems like the lords declarent have been swayed to his side in AFFC, Yohn Royce seems to be poised to fuck him up which LF expects because a pliant Yohn Royce would raise red flags. I think he knows who Alayne really is, and then Myranda goes on about how the Night's Watch elected a boy commander, a bastard son of Ned Stark's, and Sansa blurts out Jon's name. 

LF might think he's in control of the game in the Vale, but I get the feeling his control has already started slipping. I don't see him making it past Winds. 

Edited June 26, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Eyes High]

New GOT featurette posted, this time about Ramin Djawadi and the score.

[WearyTraveler]

6 hours ago, Eyes High said:

The plan falls apart if Sansa isn't already a free woman by that point, which is why LF says that the marriage needs to wait until Sansa is "safely widowed," which we can safely predict is not going to happen within LF's desired timeframe.

I agree. But I don't put it past LF to have a plan B.

[Wouter]

On 2017-6-26 at 4:56 AM, Eyes High said:

Possibly, but that has nothing to do with whether she'll ever get the Vale. The show dispensed with Sansa's Vale arc post-ASOS and with her emotional connection to Sweetrobin, suggesting that the Vale is unimportant to Sansa's endgame in the show and by extension the books.

I wouldn't say unimportant. For one, in the books I expect Littlefinger to fall in the Vale, not in Winterfell. That would be why Sansa has her own supporting cast in the books, as opposed to the show where she was quickly transferred to first Theon' and then Jon's storyline (in book terms). 

And while show Sansa may have no particular emotional connection to Sweetrobin, he was right away willing to allow LF to take his army to go save her. Sansa also appears to have Yohn Royce de-facto listening to her (I'm guessing he will be grateful to Sansa for eliminating LF, who was blackmailing him). If Sansa ever reaches the point in the books that she can influence Sweetrobin and Royce to work on behalf of Starks interest, without LF in the picture, that would be pretty important.

Moreover, the Vale has lots of excess food and Martin focused on that in the Sansa TWOW preview chapter that was released. That's going to play a role in the books (should those ever be completed, that is) even if the show may gloss over such details, for brevity.

I assume that the Vale may also play a role in the second Dance of Dragons, which was removed from the show entirely.

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

Can we bring the discussion back to Season 7 spec and spoilers please.

Thanks.

[Eyes High]

Teethgate: A few eagle-eyed posters on /Freefolk have noticed that the Trailer 2 scene of a Dany-mounted Drogon baring his teeth appears to be from two separate scenes. Drogon as shown with Dany is missing his lower front teeth (at 1:26 of Trailer 2), while the closeup shot of the dragon baring his teeth shows a full set (1:27). This has led to speculation that the dragon baring his teeth is not Drogon but Rhaegal. If I recall correctly, the Season 6 trailer pulled a similar trick, by juxtaposing the dragon with Tyrion with a separate, unrelated shot of a dragon breathing fire.

Another Reddit poster posted an overview of Cersei's costumes shown in trailers and other materials so far. Michele Clapton is doing her usual thing of giving a character multiple costumes with the basic cut and colour, switching up the fabric and ornamentation. She does the same with Sansa's costumes in Season 7 as far I can tell, since there are to date three black dresses for Sansa that are barely distinguishable from each other.

EW.com posted an interview with D&D about Season 7. They talk among other things about the impossibility of preventing leaks.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Eyes High

[Knuckles]

On 6/26/2017 at 0:11 PM, Bannon said:

organic fighter bombers

I love this description of the dragons. And I enjoy your analyses of military failures on display. Many thanks.

[GrailKing]

http://watchersonthewall.com/inside-game-thrones-season-7-set-time/#more-146544

 

Any guesses about this season's story from this?

Flowers and forbidden fruits oh and jewelry and colors, lots of colors for Sansa; Arya looks so gone with the wind.

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

http://watchersonthewall.com/inside-game-thrones-season-7-set-time/#more-146544

 

Any guesses about this season's story from this?

Flowers and forbidden fruits oh and jewelry and colors, lots of colors for Sansa; Arya looks so gone with the wind.

Maybe all the colour was sucked out of the show and into this photoshoot.

In all seriousness, I don't think the design of shoots like this tells you anything about the coming season. 

[GrailKing]

So why would they use a pomegranate and apple for Cersei and Sansa?

I'm sure you know this but I'll add; in the books LF had the  pomegranate  and Sansa chose a pear, usually if it's in both mediums it is usually important.

Instead of LF we have Cersei and instead of a pear we have the apple, also everything that has ever been said about Sansa is actually spelled out in the colors she is wearing.

I find Time magazine setting up the characters especially Cersei and Sansa strange or they know something.

[GrailKing]

someone posted this and another pic ( danny walking up to her throne ).

Sansa's look is like what you saying ?

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/52fc05c9e4b08fc45bd99090/t/59567798d482e92f03cb7f4e/1498838941256/

[SeanC]

On 2017-07-02 at 2:34 AM, GrailKing said:

So why would they use a pomegranate and apple for Cersei and Sansa?

Those aren't in-character portraits, otherwise Sophie wouldn't be blonde (unless...secret Targaryen!) and Lena would be.

[FemmyV]

To quote (or paraphrase) Paul Westerberg, 'when a photographer wants you to come outside so he can take a photo of you by this tree, it's not about you, it's about the tree.'

These are great photos, but they have nothing to do with Game of Thrones and the characters. They're about the very talented photographer.

Edited July 4, 2017 by FemmyV

[Raachel2008]

14 hours ago, FemmyV said:

To quote (or paraphrase) Paul Westerberg, 'when a photographer wants you to come outside so he can take a photo of you by this tree, it's not about you, it's about the tree.'

These are great photos, but they have nothing to do with Game of Thrones and the characters. They're about the very talented photographer.

This a billion times. The whole photshoot is  100% Miles Aldridge.  Everyone  familiar with his work can see  that the only GoT in these photos are the  six people pictured.

Also, I doubt even D&D remember the promeganate and pear, never mind the people behind the Time cover.

[SimoneS]

12 more days! I am counting them down. I cannot wait.

The other photo HBO released is Daenerys in front of her new throne. I am having problems accessing that HBO blog, maybe others will have better luck.

https://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/ready-yourself-for-season-7-with-these-exclusive-photos

Edited July 5, 2017 by SimoneS

[Jazzy24]

6 hours ago, SimoneS said:

12 more days! I am counting them down. I cannot wait.

The other photo HBO released is Daenerys in front of her new throne. I am having problems accessing that HBO blog, maybe others will have better luck.

https://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/ready-yourself-for-season-7-with-these-exclusive-photos

That is a ugly throne. 

[Bannon]

On ‎7‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 8:45 AM, Knuckles said:

I love this description of the dragons. And I enjoy your analyses of military failures on display. Many thanks.

Thanks.  but"biologic helicopter gunships" is probably a bit more accurate. Even with the ground to air kinetic weapon the Lannister forces are said  to deploy in season 7,  Dany's forces, if equipped with credible competency in command, really should be able to sweep aside all opposition, especially since there is a body of historical knowledge about using dragons in battle. Think about the Battle of Agincourt if the English (who won anyways, despite being numerically inferior) had the benefit of a single helicopter gunship. The battle would have been over in about 10 minutes, with about another half hour of mass slaughter.. Wouldn't make much of a drama, however.  Like I said, I'll watch anyways, of course. The political drama is what has always interested me about this show, so it suffered a lot when Tywin Lannister was killed off. The diplomacy needed to form an alliance against a formidable foreign enemy like the White Walkers, however, has great potential for entertainment.  Here's hoping they do it well.

[dragonsbite]

12 hours ago, Jazzy24 said:

That is a ugly throne. 

But it's dragon-stone. So couldn't they knock chips off it (to pretty-fy it) and use the chips for killing WWs?  Or it it just the stone where the dragons first landed in Westeros?

[WearyTraveler]

1 hour ago, dragonsbite said:

But it's dragon-stone. So couldn't they knock chips off it (to pretty-fy it) and use the chips for killing WWs?  Or it it just the stone where the dragons first landed in Westeros?

I also thought the throne seems to be carved out of dragon glass.  As we know, Dragonstone is the only place in Westeros where the material could be found.  In the books, Stannis tells Jon at the Wall that he's already sent instructions for the people who remained in Dragonstone to mine it.

Possible dialog when Jon meets Daenerys ;-) :

D: What would you have of me, King in the North?

J: Your throne, for starters

(tense moment)

J: The stone it's made off is one of two things that can kill the army of the undead that is rising beyond the Wall.  The other is Valeryan steel.

Edited July 5, 2017 by WearyTraveler

[paigow]

Jon: By the way, I should be calling you Auntie....

Dany: WTF...

[Eyes High]

/BluePosey at /Freefolk has seen the GOT TV Guide cover story and has posted some snippets. Not much that's new, except this:

Quote

There's a quote from Peter Dinklage about Tyrion and Dany: "We'll deal with how much Daenerys can trust him [to stay on her side against the Lannisters]. But he's smitten with his employer. How good can he be at his job while having these feelings?"

So Tyrion's in love with Dany after all! 

Another possible tidbit:

Quote

Benioff: "There might be some surprising hookups this season."

Assuming he's referring to sexual encounters and not just characters crossing paths....It could be a reference to the Grey Worm/Missandei sex scene we know is coming, to the Jon/Dany sex scene we also know is coming, to the Yara/Ellaria hookup that's interrupted by Euron's attack, or...something else? Littlefinger/Sansa, maybe?

Edited July 6, 2017 by Eyes High

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

It could be a reference to the Grey Worm/Missandei sex scene we know is coming, 

Following some magic from Melisandre?? 

[anamika]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

So Tyrion's in love with Dany after all! 

 

Yes!

So a possible Tyrion/Dany/Jon love triangle coming up? Though, I don't think it will be heavily played up. Just Tyrion having unspoken feelings for Dany. He can join Jorah in the friendzone. It will be interesting to see if his behavior towards Jon changes later on.

 It does look like George changed the Tyrion/Arya/Jon love triangle in the original outline with Dany replacing Arya. I get the feeling that the lack of the 5 year gap played a role here since Arya is currently 11-12 years old.   In 2016,

Quote

George mentioned that he felt really silly about that planned 5 year jump. He imagined it originally going something like Jon sitting on the Wall going "Well, it's been 5 fairly quiet years since I've been Lord Commander. But I'm starting to think that'll pick up now..." and realised that the adults wouldn't wait in their plot lines for Arya to hit puberty.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Boskone_Boston_MA_February_17_195

I mean he tried for a year to get the 5 year gap to work and could not get it to work.

He also stated with regards to the loss of his 5 year gap:

Quote

It worked for characters like Arya and Dany but not so much for the adults or those who had a lot of action coming. He was writing chapters where Jon thought, "Well, not a lot has happened these past five years, it's been kinda nice." And Cersei chapters where she thought, "Well, I've had to kill sooo many people the last five years." So he ended up dropping it. He said he would have done it sooner if he hadn't told so many fans about it. And there is no gap anymore. "If a twelve-year old has to conquer the world, then so be it."

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/US_Signing_Tour_Half_Moon_Bay_CA/

Arya is 11 now and pretty much the only main character who will be 12 near the end of the story without the 5 year gap. So she may yet play some prominent role and considering that GRRM played up the Jon-Arya relationship in his last book, that may still be important. But if Jon/Dany get together as opposed to Jon/Arya that does change their endings somewhat significantly. But I do think that sometime after 2006-2007 at least, his main character relationships did change and we will have to wait and see if that impacts character endings. If Jon dies at the end, maybe it does not matter if his romantic relationship is with Dany or Arya.

Edit: I just realized that Dany's visions of the blue rose and the house of the undying was in book 2 - so maybe George did intend for Jon/Dany from the beginning.

Regarding Dany from TV guide:

Quote

TVG: "Even with fire-breathing dragons, Daenerys would prefer diplomacy."

Emilia: "She wants to break the wheel, get in the power seat, enact change. She doesn't want to simply wipe out anyone who disagrees with her."

Looks like we will be getting a more diplomatic Dany who wants to enforce change.

Edited July 6, 2017 by anamika

[Eyes High]

10 hours ago, anamika said:

So a possible Tyrion/Dany/Jon love triangle coming up? Though, I don't think it will be heavily played up. Just Tyrion having unspoken feelings for Dany. He can join Jorah in the friendzone. It will be interesting to see if his behavior towards Jon changes later on. It does look like George changed the Tyrion/Arya/Jon love triangle in the original outline with Dany replacing Arya.

Possibly. The other part to that, though, is that the outline suggested that the point of Tyrion's unrequited love for Arya was to fuel a "deadly rivalry" with Jon. I can't see TV Tyrion, who's more mellow than his book self, getting into a deadly rivalry with anyone, much less someone he already likes and respects like Jon. I can't imagine TV Tyrion doing anything about his love for Dany other than getting drunk and whining to Varys about it.

If there is a "point" to Tyrion's love for Dany from a plot perspective, I don't think we'll see it come to fruition in Season 7 judging from the leaks. In fact, Lads, who covered all the major plot points from Season 7, didn't even mention that Tyrion had fallen in love with Dany. Maybe in Season 8 we can see where this is going, assuming it is in fact going somewhere relevant to the plot.

Link to the TV Insider article (now online in its entirety).

Edited July 6, 2017 by Eyes High

[Spartan Girl]

Tyrion is in love with Dany? Well, on one hand, cool, but on another...Dany has so many admirers that it was refreshing that she seemed to have one guy in her life that wasn't automatically physically attracted to her. And Tyrion is such a whorehound that it was nice to see him interact with a woman with platonic respect -- that wasn't Sansa.

I guess we shall see how it plays out. But please don't turn him into a Nice Guy.

[paigow]

Although Tyrion is not in "The Deadpool Of Arya Stark", he is not on her Tinder either. This couple would be impossible, despite living in a world of dragons and magic!!!!?????

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Tyrion is in love with Dany? Well, on one hand, cool, but on another...Dany has so many admirers that it was refreshing that she seemed to have one guy in her life that wasn't automatically physically attracted to her. And Tyrion is such a whorehound that it was nice to see him interact with a woman with platonic respect -- that wasn't Sansa.

I guess we shall see how it plays out. But please don't turn him into a Nice Guy.

The show avoided the Nice Guy trope with Jorah, so hopefully they will with Tyrion as well.

 

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Although Tyrion is not in "The Deadpool Of Arya Stark", he is not on her Tinder either. This couple would be impossible, despite living in a world of dragons and magic!!!!?????

To be fair, in the outline where Tyrion fell in love with Arya, his love was unrequited.

[Raachel2008]

Tyrion is in love with Dany? Right, because no man on Westeros can resist the appeal. Sorry, but he was in love with Shay, and although I'm sure we all can agree he has a crush on her, there was no indication he was in love.

[FemmyV]

21 hours ago, anamika said:

Arya is 11 now and pretty much the only main character who will be 12 near the end of the story without the 5 year gap.

Show Arya was 11 in season 1. Book Arya was 9. Most sources put her at about 17 for season 7. She's ready for more mature storylines now, even though some members of the audience may be uncomfortable with it.

Edited July 7, 2017 by FemmyV

[SeanC]

17 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Show Arya was 11 in season 1. Book Arya was 9. Most sources put her at about 17 for season 7. She's ready for more mature storylines now, even though some members of the audience may be uncomfortable with it.

Yes, but any storyline in this regard would have to be one suitable for Book!Arya, since it's Book!Arya's endgame (presumably).

[FemmyV]

13 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Yes, but any storyline in this regard would have to be one suitable for Book!Arya, since it's Book!Arya's endgame (presumably).

Agreed, and perhaps this is GRRM's Winterfell knot that's partly keeping the last two books from being finished.

[SimoneS]

I am not surprised that Tyrion is smitten with Daenerys. I was always a bit afraid of this, but I don't think that he is in love with her so his heart is unlikely to be crushed although his judgment like Jorah before him is suspect.

 

On 7/6/2017 at 0:01 AM, paigow said:

Following some magic from Melisandre?? 

I was wondering the same thing about Grey Worm and Missandei so I did a Google search and found the article below. Seems that GRRM took a lot of liberties with the Unsullied as eunuchs being superior fighters. While Grey Worm's sexual desire for Missandei portrayed in the show is unlikely as long as he has a penis sex is feasible.

http://www.mtv.com/news/1836500/game-of-thrones-grey-worm-missandei-sex-eunuch/

[Maximum Taco]

14 hours ago, doram said:

I'm pretty sure that Tyrion is in love with Dany. And so is Grey Worm a little and Missandei as well. Basically, Dany will be someone that lots of people fall in love with. She's a beautiful bad-ass who rides dragons. As the books describe her - she's Aegon the Conqueror with teats. If she were a man, women would be throwing themselves at her. 

I think the love that Grey Worm and Missandei have for Dany is different though. They love her like a mother (Mhysa.) As far as I can remember neither has really had fan service sexy time with Dany in the show or expressed any want to either implicitly or explicitly. And obviously in the book Missandei is a child, so it's a purely maternal love between her and Dany. 

Tyrion wants to be with her, like Jorah before him. But (in the books at least) Tyrion is fairly shallow, he "loves" Shae and Sansa because they are young and beautiful, he rejects Penny because she is an ugly dwarf. It makes sense he would fall in "love" with Dany, the most beautiful woman in the world by most accounts.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Maximum Taco said:

Tyrion wants to be with her, like Jorah before him. But (in the books at least) Tyrion is fairly shallow, he "loves" Shae and Sansa because they are young and beautiful, he rejects Penny because she is an ugly dwarf. It makes sense he would fall in "love" with Dany, the most beautiful woman in the world by most accounts.

Book Tyrion is no more shallow than the rest of the ASOIAF characters, ugly or otherwise.  The plain Jorah loved Lynesse and Dany. Edmure balks at the idea of marrying an ugly wife but is instantly all smiles when he sees what a babe Roslin is. A number of characters of varying degrees of attractiveness lust after Sansa, and Tyrion's not the only hideous one to do so. Rhaegar throws over Elia for the prettier Lyanna. Barristan (and Ned?) loved the beautiful Ashara. Cersei loves Jaime but would have thrown him over in a hot second for the more beautiful Rhaegar, who supposedly made Jaime look like a "stable boy" in comparison. Brienne, supposedly just as ugly in her way in the books as Tyrion, pines for two incredibly attractive guys with whom she has no shot: Renly and Jaime. Dany desires Daario and Drogo, not Jorah and Quentyn. Sansa wants Joffrey and Loras. Arianne wants Arys and Darkstar. Even Jon when given the choice is strongly attracted to the beautiful Val. Alys Karstark flirts hard with Jon at her own wedding to a less attractive guy and "jokes" about how she should have charmed the (more handsome) Robb when she was younger. And so on.

Going back to the show, it is entirely in character for Tyrion to fall in love with Dany. Not only is she beautiful, but she also gave him the respect he craved. She even made him her Hand. I'd be surprised if he didn't fall in love with her, given all that.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Eyes High